MinistryWatch Podcast

Warren Smith and Natasha Smith
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Nov 1, 2024 • 27min

Ep. 411: Hillsdale College, GRACE, Operation Underground Railroad

On today’s program, a lawsuit against Hillsdale College has been dismissed after students alleging they were raped sued the college for Title 9 violations. We’ll have details. And, the nonprofit Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment—known as GRACE for short—turns 20 years old. We’ll look back at where they started—and where they’re going. Plus, those subscriptions you forgot your paying for?...A new law will make it easy for you to unsubscribe, but it could also impact the recurring gifts to Christian ministries. But first, Operation Underground Railroad…who continues distancing itself from its embroiled founder Tim Ballard…is moving its headquarters. Operation Underground Railroad Rescue is moving its headquarters from Salt Lake City, Utah, to Minneapolis, Minnesota, according to reporting by Twin Cities Business. The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today’s program include Kim Roberts, Jessica Eturralde, Paul Clolery, Richard Levey, and Christina Darnell. A special thanks to The NonProfit Times for contributing material for this week’s podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.   MANUSCRIPT   FIRST SEGMENT Warren:  Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you from Charlotte, North Carolina. Natasha: And I’m Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado. And we’d like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast. Warren: On today’s program, a lawsuit against Hillsdale College has been dismissed after students alleging they were raped sued the college for Title 9 violations. We’ll have details. And, the nonprofit Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment—known as GRACE for short—turns 20 years old. We’ll look back at where they started—and where they’re going. Plus, those subscriptions you forgot your paying for?...World Vision is encouraging donors to cancel those and give to people in need around the world. They’re calling it Subscribe to World Change. We’ll take a look. Natasha: But first, Operation Underground Railroad…who continues distancing itself from its embroiled founder Tim Ballard…is moving its headquarters. Warren: Operation Underground Railroad Rescue is moving its headquarters from Salt Lake City, Utah, to Minneapolis, Minnesota, according to reporting by Twin Cities Business. Tammy Lee, OUR Rescue CEO said about Minneapolis. “There is such a strong foundation here, in the legal community as well as the philanthropic community and the survivor support community,” The global headquarters’ relocation is planned for January 2025. Lee also said the mission of the organization will adjust to focus more on domestic trafficking and rescues. Natasha: How do they plan to do that? Warren: Lee said, “In this coming year, we’re going to be building out direct services for survivors of human trafficking and sexual exploitation,” “We’re also looking at supporting key populations that are really underserved, looking at the indigenous populations and partnerships with other non-governmental organizations to do that work.” Lee joined OUR Rescue as CEO in February 2024 with the task of rebuilding and rebranding the organization. OUR Rescue was founded by former homeland security agent Tim Ballard in 2013 as Operation Underground Railroad. In April, Lee and the board renamed the group OUR Rescue. In the MinistryWatch database, Operation Underground Railroad has a 1-star financial efficiency rating, a C transparency grade, and a donor confidence score of 45, meaning donors should exercise caution when giving to this group. Natasha: Next up, A lawsuit against Hillsdale college has been dismissed Warren: Last October, one present and one former student of Hillsdale College filed a federal lawsuit alleging the institution failed to adequately investigate their claims of ...
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Oct 30, 2024 • 12min

Ep. 410: Unsung Heroes Honored For Work in Middle East, North Africa

In an era of celebrity and platform, it’s easy to forget that God uses the “least and the lost” to advance His Kingdom. The men and women I discuss in today’s podcast are not media celebrities. They don’t have “platforms” or book deals. But they have been quietly going about the business of the Kingdom of God. At MinistryWatch we often report on Christian leaders behaving badly. Sometimes it’s right and proper to pause and recognize those men and women who have quietly been engaged in what Eugene Peterson calls “long obedience in the same direction.” May we all be encouraged by their lives and – more importantly – may be all go and do likewise. To read this story, click here.
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Oct 25, 2024 • 25min

Ep. 409: Operation Underground Railroad, Eric Metaxas, Joni and Friends

On today’s program, Operation Underground Railroad founder Tim Ballard sues for defamation after six women accuse him of sexual assault. We’ll have details. And, MinistryWatch reporter Marci Seither visits Joni & Friends in Tennessee as the ministry ships off hundreds of donated wheelchairs. They head to a prison, where inmates are repairing the equipment, even as they work to repair their own lives. Also, the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference announces the launch of new health initiatives, including mental health and financial health. We’ll take a look. But first, relatives and scholars of Dietrich Bonhoeffer have issued a warning to Eric Metaxas and others, accusing them of misusing his legacy for political reasons. The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today’s program include Bob Smietana, Kim Roberts, Marci Seither, Aleja Hertzler-McCain, and Brittany Smith. Until next time, may God bless you.   MANUSCRIPT   FIRST SEGMENT Warren: Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you this week from our nation’s capital, Washington, DC. Natasha: And I’m Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado. And we’d like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast. Warren: On today’s program, Operation Underground Railroad founder Tim Ballard sues for defamation after six women accuse him of sexual assault. We’ll have details. And, MinistryWatch reporter Marci Seither visits Joni & Friends in Tennessee as the ministry ships off hundreds of donated wheelchairs. They head to a prison, where inmates are repairing the equipment, even as they work to repair their own lives. Also, the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference announces the launch of new health initiatives, including mental health and financial health. We’ll take a look. Natasha: But first, relatives and scholars of Dietrich Bonhoeffer have issued a warning to Eric Metaxas and others, accusing them of misusing his legacy for political reasons. Warren: In recent years, author and radio host Eric Metaxas and other conservative Christian supporters of Donald Trump have compared themselves to the famed German theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer — who was put to death, in part, for participating in a plan to assassinate Adolph Hitler. In a recent interview on Flashpoint, a Christian television talk show on the Victory network, both Metaxas — author of a bestselling biography of Bonhoeffer — and the show’s host called the current election a “Bonhoeffer moment” and urged Christians to rise up and oppose evil. His newest book, “Religionless Christianity” — a phrase used by Bonhoeffer — describes America’s current politics as a spiritual war and sign of the end times. Natasha: A group of Bonhoeffer scholars — and the theologian’s descendants — have had enough. Warren: In a statement issued Friday (Oct. 18) members of the International Bonhoeffer Society called on Metaxas and others to stop comparing the current election to the rise of the Nazis. The statement, in particular, called out Metaxas for social media posts featuring a gun and a Bible and his support of Jan. 6 rioters. “This portrayal glorifies violence and draws inappropriate analogies between our political system and that of Nazi Germany,” the scholars said in a statement, which has been signed by more than 800 Bonhoeffer scholars and other Christian leaders. Natasha: What prompted the statement? Warren: In part by the upcoming release of a new Bonhoeffer biopic, which will be out in theaters in late November. One of the posters for the film shows Bonhoeffer with a gun, and a trailer for the film shows his involvement in the plot to kill Hitler. Some of the early social media tweets about the film included messages about the “battle against tyranny” and a line from the trailer,
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Oct 23, 2024 • 25min

Ep. 408: What Does Generosity Really Look Like? A Conversation with missionary Anthony Sytsma

Most Christians who are active in church have been in this situation before. You’ve just listened to a compelling presentation about a need in some far-away corner of the world. Or perhaps it was a television program, or a commercial on your favorite Christian radio station. The need seems so great, and the story tugs at your heart strings. I’ve never heard of this organization before, but maybe it’s the Holy Spirit prompting me to give. What should I do? Hello, everyone, I’m Warren Smith, the president of MinistryWatch. And I think it is biblical to test the spirits, to make sure that the spirit moving you is actually the Holy Spirit. That’s why an article I saw in Christianity Today magazine by my guest today, Anthony Sytsma, caught my attention. It’s called “God Calls Me To Give. But to Everyone?” He has some guidance for us on how to test whether that tug we are feeling is actually from God…or from some clever advertising executives. Anthony Sytsma is himself a missionary, so he’s not trying to discourage giving. In fact, he believes, as do I, that when we have confidence in our giving decisions, we’ll actually give more. If you’d like to read his article in Christianity Today, click here. The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. Until next time, may God bless you.
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Oct 18, 2024 • 27min

Ep. 407: Cru and LGBTQ Issues, United Methodists, and Pastor Burnout

On today’s program, Cru will stop using its current LGBTQ training program for staff by the end of this year. The change comes after facing accusations that the long-time campus ministry is compromising on biblical sexuality. We’ll have details. Meanwhile, United Methodist churches in Liberia face protests and unrest as it deals with the fallout of the global denomination’s shift on LGBTQ issues. We’ll take a look. And, American pastors are burned out and exhausted—but experts say that can change. But first, a group of people affiliated with Morningstar church in South Carolina are calling for founder Rick Joyner’s resignation—and Joyner is not having it. A group of former MorningStar church members, students, and staff members have signed an open statement calling for MorningStar founder Rick Joyner to resign, among other accountability measures. Until next time, may God bless you.   MANUSCRIPT   FIRST SEGMENT Warren: Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you this week from Amsterdam, in the Netherlands, where I’m attending a conference on Bible translation. Natasha: And I’m Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado. And we’d like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast. Warren: On today’s program, Cru will stop using its current LGBTQ training program for staff by the end of this year. The change comes after facing accusations that the long-time campus ministry is compromising on biblical sexuality. We’ll have details. Meanwhile, United Methodist churches in Liberia face protests and unrest as it deals with the fallout of the global denomination’s shift on LGBTQ issues. We’ll take a look. And, American pastors are burned out and exhausted—but experts say that can change. Natasha: But first, a group of people affiliated with Morningstar church in South Carolina are calling for founder Rick Joyner’s resignation—and Joyner is not having it. Warren: A group of former MorningStar church members, students, and staff members have signed an open statement calling for MorningStar founder Rick Joyner to resign, among other accountability measures. The statement, published by MorningStar Accountability Now on September 23, follows the filing of three lawsuits by victims who alleged child sexual abuse by Erickson Lee during MorningStar programs. The lawsuits also seek to hold the ministry liable for not preventing the alleged abuse. Natasha: How has the founder responded? Warren: In an email on October 5 to Emily Elston, a leader of the MorningStar Accountability Now group, Joyner said, “I am the one God gave to raise up MorningStar, and I will not abandon my post except by His clearly revealed will.” The accountability statement has over 200 named signatories, some of whom are former teachers at the church’s Comenius School for Creative Leadership, as well as church attendees, Morningstar staff, and others affiliated with the Morningstar School of Ministry. Natasha: In addition to calling for Joyner’s resignation, the statement also calls for an independent audit of the MorningStar board, the credentials of its members, and its policies and procedures. Warren: MorningStar does not file an informational Form 990 with the Internal Revenue Service where the board members’ names would be listed, nor does it have them easily accessible on its ministry website. The accountability statement also calls for an independent audit of the ministry’s child protection policies and for the audit results to be released publicly. The statement says MorningStar should implement mandatory training on sexual abuse against minors for all staff and volunteers who interact with children. Natasha: On September 24, MorningStar’s leadership released a statement saying they “stand with the victims” and are “fully committed to their healing and restoration.” Warren: The statement claims MorningStar is working with independent third-party inves...
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Oct 17, 2024 • 20min

Ep. 406: How the U.S. Government Can Stop non-Churches From Being Treated Like Churches

Christian ministries and other non-profit organizations have played a huge, positive role in American culture. If you don’t believe me, just read Benjamin Franklin, Alexis de Tocqueville, Robert Bellah, Rodney Stark, Arthur Brooks…the list goes on. Because of the positive influence in our culture, our laws encourage their work. They are not required to pay taxes on revenue, and donors to them get tax advantages as well. In exchange for these advantages, we ask only a couple of things: First, that they actually do the good work they promise to do, and – secondly – that they disclose enough details about their work so that the donor public can confirm that. That disclosure is a Form 990, which all tax-exempt bodies except churches must file with the federal government. However, churches are exempt from that requirement. That exemption makes some sense, since most churches are small and all of the donors to a local church were members of the church. Today, however, we live in an era of mega churches that are often the center of an ecosystem of related entities – both profit and non-profit. We also have religious advocacy groups that are claiming to be churches even though they don’t have regular services, don’t ordain clergy, don’t marry or bury their members, don’t do anything that we think of as the normal activity of a church. This state of affairs have led some – including those of us here at MinistryWatch – to believe that we need a new regimen of regulations and laws that update those written in another era. Sharing some of these views is Lloyd Hitoshi Mayer, a professor of law at the University of Notre Dame. He and his coauthor Ellen Aprill have written a new paper outlining changes that need to happen to fix – or at least to bring a bit more up to date – the current situation. Links to articles mentioned in today’s program. https://ministrywatch.com/law-professor-advocates-changing-irs-definition-of-church-association-of-churches/ https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4346286 https://theconversation.com/how-the-us-government-can-stop-churches-from-getting-treated-like-real-churches-by-the-irs-237922 That brings to a close my interview with Dr. Lloyd Hitoshi Mayer, a professor of law at the University of Notre Dame. We’ll have links to the articles we discussed today in the show notes for today’s program. The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. I’m your host Warren Smith. Until next time, may God bless you.
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Oct 11, 2024 • 25min

Ep. 405: BGEA Sues, Turmoil in the EPC & Kanakuk Sex Abuse Lawsuit

On today’s program, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association threatens to sue after the group Evangelicals for Harris uses video of Billy Graham to make an anti-Trump ad. We’ll have details. Plus, a storm is brewing within the Evangelical Presbyterian Church—some are asking if the denomination will stay true to its mission. And, the leaders of Kanakuk Kamps are the defendants in a sexual abuse-related lawsuit. They tried to get parts of that lawsuit dismissed—and the court has handed down its decision. We’ll take a look. But first, a class action lawsuit has been filed against Gateway Church and its former pastor Robert Morris. Gateway Church, headquartered in the Dallas suburb of Southlake, has been facing a multitude of allegations and controversies after Cindy Clemishire’s sexual abuse allegations against founding pastor Robert Morris led to his resignation. Now, a class action lawsuit has been filed against the church in federal court by members who are concerned about the stewardship of the money they contributed. The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today’s program include Kim Roberts, Kathryn Post, Marci Seither, Mallory Challis, Brittany Smith and Christina Darnell. A special thanks to Generous Giving and Baptist News Global for contributing material for this week’s podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.   MANUSCRIPT   FIRST SEGMENT Warren: Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you from Charlotte, North Carolina. Natasha: And I’m Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado. And we’d like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast. Warren: On today’s program, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association threatens to sue after the group Evangelicals for Harris uses video of Billy Graham to make an anti-Trump ad. We’ll have details. Plus, a storm is brewing within the Evangelical Presbyterian Church—some are asking if the denomination will stay true to its mission. And, the leaders of Kanakuk Kamps are the defendants in a sexual abuse-related lawsuit. They tried to get parts of that lawsuit dismissed—and the court has handed down its decision. We’ll take a look. Natasha: But first, a class action lawsuit has been filed against Gateway Church and its former pastor Robert Morris. Warren: Gateway Church, headquartered in the Dallas suburb of Southlake, has been facing a multitude of allegations and controversies after Cindy Clemishire’s sexual abuse allegations against founding pastor Robert Morris led to his resignation. Natasha: Now, a class action lawsuit has been filed against the church in federal court by members who are concerned about the stewardship of the money they contributed. Warren: The lawsuit alleges that Morris and Gateway’s leadership represented that “15% of all tithe dollars would be distributed to global missions and Jewish ministry partners, encouraging church members to generously give toward these ends.” The lawsuit states, Morris claimed in 2023 that Gateway had sent more than $25 million overseas. The plaintiffs believe that was a misrepresentation, and they are seeking transparency about how the money was used. In 2021, MinistryWatch reported about the network of ministries associated with Gateway Church—there was little financial and organizational transparency made available to the public. A former executive pastor never witnessed more than $3 million annually in global missions contributions. Natasha: The plaintiffs claim that “Gateway refused to be transparent when trying to answer even simple questions about the use of tithing dollars.” Warren: Lead plaintiff Katherine Leach “has publicly and directly delivered a demand letter to Gateway for the return of her tithes pursuant to Gateway’s ‘money back guarantee.’ Gateway has not responded.”
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Oct 9, 2024 • 37min

Ep. 404: How Christianity and Crude Oil Made Modern America

Darren Dochuk’s book Anointed With Oil: How Christianity and Crude Made Modern America has been out a couple of years. But I must confess that I discovered it only recently, and it has changed my perspective about a lot things I thought I knew about modern American Evangelicalism. As you will hear, he outlines how modern Protestantism split in the early 20th century into liberal and conservative factions. The liberal stream was made up mostly of the mainline protestant churches, and the conservative stream became what we know today is evangelicalism. However, what Dockuk adds to this conversation is an analysis of how both streams got funded -- by oil millionaires such as John D. Rockefeller on the left and J. Howard Pew and the Hunt Brothers on the right. He has caused me to believe that without these men and a very few others who funded their religious impulses, modern American religious life would look very different than it does today. Darren Dochuk is a professor of history at the University of Notre Dame, and his previous works include From Bible Belt to Sunbelt, a history of the rise of evangelical conservatism. That book won the John H. Dunning Prize from the American Historical Association. Darren Dochuk spoke to me from his office in South Bend, Indiana. I hope you’ll join me again on Friday when I’m joined by Natasha Cowden for our discussion of the week’s news. The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. Until next time, may God bless you!
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Oct 4, 2024 • 26min

Ep. 403: Hurricane Helene Relief, Barnabas Aid, Ethnos 360

On today’s program,, Christian ministries are on the forefront of relief efforts as cities in Western North Carolina grapple with loss after Hurricane Helene. We’ll take a look. And, a Georgia congregation locked out of their own building after splitting from its parent church. We’ll have details. Plus, the missions organization Ethnos 360 faces a lawsuit after a victim alleges that another missionary child abused her…and the ministry is continuing to allow the perpetrator access to other children. But first, the United Kingdom has launched an investigation into Barnabas Aid. The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today’s program include Kim Roberts, Bob Smietana, Tony Mator, Brittany Smith—and you, Warren. Until next time, may God bless you.   MANUSCRIPT   FIRST SEGMENT Warren: Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you from Charlotte, North Carolina. Christina: And I’m Christina Darnell, in for Natasha Cowden, also coming to you from Charlotte, North Carolina. And we’d like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast. Warren: On today’s program, Christian ministries are on the forefront of relief efforts as cities in Western North Carolina grapple with loss after Hurricane Helene. We’ll take a look. And, a Georgia congregation locked out of their own building after splitting from its parent church. We’ll have details. Plus, the missions organization Ethnos360 faces a lawsuit after a victim alleges that another missionary child abused her…and the ministry is continuing to allow the perpetrator access to other children. Christina: But first, the United Kingdom has launched an investigation into Barnabas Aid. Warren: Barnabas Aid — also known as Barnabas Fund, which aids persecuted Christians — is being investigated by the Charity Commission in the United Kingdom. On Sept. 17, the commission opened a statutory inquiry into the ministry based on allegations of a “£15m ($20 million) hole in the finances of its global network,” Christina: Additionally, Barnabas Aid is almost three months late in filing its latest financial accounts, according to the Charity Commission’s website. Warren: In August, Patrick Sookdheo, founder of Barnabas Aid, was suspended from his role in the organization due to concerns about financial mismanagement and a toxic work culture. Noel Frost served as chief executive of the international organization, according to the Church Times. He also was removed from his position earlier this year due to allegations of misconduct and financial impropriety. A Barnabas spokesperson told The Telegraph the investigation is ongoing, and “if it reveals that there has been any financial wrongdoing, then we are committed to recovering it.” Christina: Barnabas Aid has offices in several countries, including the United States, and also has an international office called Nexcus International. Warren: Nexcus was previously called Christian Relief International (CRI), but the name was changed to enable Barnabas Aid to “provide aid to countries where Christianity is prohibited,” according to Barnabas Aid USA CEO Jeremy Frith. A letter dated August 14 by self-described interim international chief executive of Nexcus, Colin Bloom, said an independent investigation has found “serious and repeated contraventions of internal policies” and had brought “evidence of serious financial impropriety” to light. According to the Barnabas Aid website, Nexcus (formerly CRI) serves as the international office for all Barnabas Aid ministries worldwide. Nexcus is registered in the US, but has an office in the UK. Christina: Our next story hits close to home for us, Warren. In North Carolina, our neighbors to the west of Charlotte are dealing with the aftermath of Hurricane Helene,
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Oct 2, 2024 • 16min

Ep. 402: Leaving The Network: A Conversation with Reporter Kim Roberts

The Network is a group of churches started by Steve Morgan, a pastor who began his career as part of the Vineyard USA association of churches, but left that group to start his network of churches in 2006. Until recently, the network had 26 member churches. Morgan is the lead pastor of Joshua Church in Austin, Texas. But in the past few months, families and even some churches have been speaking out about the practices of Morgan and The Network. Today, we talk with reporter Kim Roberts, who has been covering The Network for MinistryWatch. Below is a transcript of that conversation. Warren Your story begins with a woman named Melanie and her estrangement from her daughter that she believes is because of The Network. Before we talk more about Melanie, I want to mention that we use only her first name in today’s story. It is generally the practice of MinistryWatch to only use named sources. In this instance, because Melanie is trying to strike a balance between warning others and maintaining the possibility of reconciliation with her daughter, we agreed to only use her first name. So, with that said, what can you tell me about Melanie’s story? Kim Melanie raised her children in a Christian home. So she was happy her daughter was getting involved in church while at college. But then she noticed their conversations change. Her daughter started to seem disconnected. Warren Then she really became disconnected. Kim She did. Melanie said that she hasn’t heard her daughter’s voice in two years. Her eldest daughter cut off contact with her on November 29, 2022, after Melanie expressed concerns about her daughter’s church and its practices. She sent her daughter a link to a website with stories of heartbreak from people affiliated with The Network. Warren Her daughter had joined Foundation Church, a Network church led by Justin Major, while she was a junior at Illinois State University. Kim That’s right, and this was not the first time she had disconnected from the family. Not long after her 21stbirthday in 2017, Melanie’s daughter announced she would be getting married to a young man she had just met. They were married within 10 days of meeting. Six months later, Melanie received a text that her daughter and new son-in-law would need time to themselves and would have no contact with Melanie and her family for a year. Warren Melanie and her husband agreed to respect their daughter’s wishes and after about a year, they got together and things started to improve, Melanie said. What happened next? Kim In January 2020, Melanie helped after the arrival of her first grandbaby. While she loved spending time with her daughter and her family, Melanie was soon told not to send any text messages to her daughter without including her son-in-law also. When she was in the area, Melanie asked to have lunch with her daughter but that was “not allowed.” Warren Despite the continued inexplicable boundaries and family strain, Melanie again helped when the second grandbaby arrived in May 2022. During the visit, Melanie said the two had good conversations, and she was optimistic that healing was occurring. Kim Then in October 2022, when Melanie was on her way to visit her father for his birthday, she offered to drop by so her eldest grandchild could sign the card to his great-grandfather. Her daughter’s response was “upsetting” and “bizarre.” “I respectfully decline your request,” her daughter wrote in a text response, claiming the child didn’t know Melanie’s father. Her daughter didn’t join the family Thanksgiving celebration that year and a few days later, Melanie shared her concerns about The Network of churches to which her daughter’s church belonged. Warren That was in 2022. And that’s her texts were blocked and communication ceased. And in your story, Kim, you wrote something really interesting. Quoting Melanie, you wrote: “I feel like if you have a close family, they will try to put a wedge there.

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