

MinistryWatch Podcast
Warren Smith and Natasha Smith
Transparency and accountability are vital to the renewal of the evangelical church in America. Hosts Warren Smith and Natasha Smith highlight the top stories of the week from the unique MinistryWatch perspective and give you a peek behind the curtain to show why and how we do the investigations we do.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Jan 29, 2025 • 21min
Ep. 431: A Lover’s Quarrel With The Evangelical Church
On today’s “Extra” episode, Warren Smith reads an excerpt from his recently published book, A Lover’s Quarrel With The Evangelical Church.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. Until next time, may God bless you.

Jan 24, 2025 • 28min
Ep. 430: Kanakuk, Climbing the “Benefits Cliff,” and Pastors and Planes
On today’s program, the lawsuit against Kanakuk Kamps brought by Logan Yandell has been dismissed. Yandell was a former camper who was sexually abused at the camp by leader Pete Newman. We’ll take a look. Also, in the next episode of our Generous Living series, a story about how $4 an hour changed the life trajectory of a young mom. And, Pastors and Planes—after tracking planes owned by more than 40 ministries, who was the biggest user of private aircraft…and how much did it cost donors?
But first, an Ohio pastor has been found guilty of criminal charges for providing temporary shelter to homeless people in his community. Dad’s Place, a church in Bryan, Ohio, has been battling with the city since last winter to provide shelter to homeless persons in the area. Now, the pastor, Chris Avell, has been found guilty in municipal court of a criminal charge related to a fire code violation, fined $200, and given a 60-day suspended sentence.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today’s program include Kim Roberts, Elizabeth Coffee, Nathan Mayo, Tony Mator, Brittany Smith, Christina Darnell—and you, Warren.
A special thanks to Echoes Magazine for contributing material for this week’s podcast.
Until next time, may God bless you.
MANUSCRIPT:
FIRST SEGMENT
Warren:
Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you from Charlotte, North Carolina.
Natasha:
And I’m Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado, and we’d like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast.
Warren:
On today’s program, the lawsuit against Kanakuk Kamps brought by Logan Yandell has been dismissed. Yandell was a former camper who was sexually abused at the camp by leader Pete Newman. We’ll take a look.
Also, in the next episode of our Generous Living series, a story about how $4 an hour changed the life trajectory of a young mom.
And, Pastors and Planes—after tracking planes owned by more than 40 ministries, who was the biggest user of private aircraft…and how much did it cost donors?
Natasha:
But first, an Ohio pastor has been found guilty of criminal charges for providing temporary shelter to homeless people in his community.
Warren:
Dad’s Place, a church in Bryan, Ohio, has been battling with the city since last winter to provide shelter to homeless persons in the area.
Now, the pastor, Chris Avell, has been found guilty in municipal court of a criminal charge related to a fire code violation, fined $200, and given a 60-day suspended sentence.
The sentence is stayed pending an appeal by Avell, who is represented by First Liberty, a nonprofit law firm that defends religious liberty, and two other law firms.
Natasha:
What’s been the main issue for Dad’s place?
Warren:
According to First Liberty, the Bryan city officials are demanding that Dad’s Place install an expensive fire suppression system even though it does not place similar requirements on all of its motels, most of its apartment complexes, and even a senior living facility.
Natasha:
Next, the latest from Kanakuk Kamps.
Warren:
The lawsuit brought by former camper Logan Yandell against Kanakuk Kamps has been dismissed.
Missouri Judge Raymond Gross granted the defendants’ motion for summary judgment because he said the claims were time-barred and because Yandell could not “establish actionable fraud or civil conspiracy against these defendants.”
The judge dismissed all of Yandell’s claims for relief.
Natasha:
What’s the background to Yandell’s story?
Warren:
Yandell is a Kanakuk camp sexual abuse survivor who filed a lawsuit against the camp in 2022. He was sexually abused by former Kanakuk employee Peter Newman, who is currently serving two life prison sentences plus 30 years for his abuse convictions.
Yandell reached a settlement agreement with Kanakuk in 2010...

Jan 22, 2025 • 8min
Ep. 429: Tragic Stories – But Important Lessons Learned
A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned in this column that you would see some subtle changes here at MinistryWatch in 2025.
One of those changes would be in the way we cover stories that relate to what we might call the “brokenness” in the world. It’s not enough simply to say what happened. We want to do a better job of saying why and how something happened, and to be more explicit about the lessons that we can learn from that story.
We published a couple of examples of that approach in the past two weeks. I’d like to talk about them today.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. Until next time, may God bless you.

Jan 17, 2025 • 25min
Ep. 428: Joyce Meyer Leaves Daystar, Financial Lessons From a Florida Church, Remembering “Coach Mac”
On today’s program, Joyce Meyer joins a slew of popular televangelists who have pulled their programs from Daystar Television Network amid accusations the network’s president Joni Lamb covered up the sexual abuse of her granddaughter. We’ll have details.
Also, a long-time employee of a Florida church was sentenced to 2 years in prison for embezzling almost $1 million…the church is speaking out now with lessons it has learned. We’ll take a look.
And, legendary coach and founder of Promise Keepers, Bill McCartney, has died after a long battle with dementia. At its height in the 1990s, Promise Keepers drew millions of men to its events.
But first, a Pennsylvania pastor has been suspended by the Evangelical Presbyterian Church after he and his church tried to leave the denomination.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today’s program include Kim Roberts, Kathryn Post, Jessica Eturralde, Bob Smietana, Diana Chandler, Brittany Smith, Christina Darnell—and you, Warren.
A special thanks to Baptist Press for contributing material for this week’s podcast.
Until next time, may God bless you.
MANUSCRIPT:
FIRST SEGMENT
Warren:
Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you from Charlotte, North Carolina.
Natasha:
And I’m Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado, and we’d like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast.
Warren:
On today’s program, Joyce Meyer joins a slew of popular televangelists who have pulled their programs from Daystar Television Network amid accusations the network’s president Joni Lamb covered up the sexual abuse of her granddaughter. We’ll have details.
Also, a long-time employee of a Florida church was sentenced to 2 years in prison for embezzling almost $1 million…the church is speaking out now with lessons it has learned. We’ll take a look.
And, legendary coach and founder of Promise Keepers, Bill McCartney, has died after a long battle with dementia. At its height in the 1990s, Promise Keepers drew millions of men to its events.
Natasha:
But first, a Pennsylvania pastor has been suspended by the Evangelical Presbyterian Church after he and his church tried to leave the denomination.
Warren:
Beverly Heights Presbyterian Church (BHPC) is a Pittsburgh-area church and has been seeking to dissolve its affiliation and exit the denomination for over a year.
The church and presbytery have been at loggerheads over several issues, not the least of which is the roll of voting members entitled to participate in an exit vote.
The Presbytery of the Alleghenies brought charges against Pastor Nate Devlin and the elders of BHPC, the trial of which began in November. The judicial commission encouraged BHPC and the presbytery to attempt mediation.
Natasha:
But they couldn’t reach a resolution so they went to trial
Warren:
The trial occurred on January 11,
According to the presbytery’s judicial commission, Devlin was “convicted by sufficient proof of the sins of contempt and immorality” and suspended from his office as teaching elder until he demonstrates repentance, including publicly acknowledging his “wrongdoing” and removing posts and other communications that “disparage” fellow teaching and ruling elders.
Devlin’s suspension began Tuesday (Jan 14).
Natasha:
What was his reaction?
Warren:
Devlin told MinistryWatch. “It is unprecedented that a presbytery would try a pastor and the entire church session,” He said he felt compelled to see the trial through and “bear witness to the truth.”
In their closing statement at the trial, Devlin and the BHPC session said, “[W]e have consistently acted in good faith, driven by a deep love for our church, and we are not guilty of the charges against us.”
Natasha:
Next, televangelists are pausing their programs on Daystar.
Warren:

Jan 15, 2025 • 10min
Ep. 427: How Much Is Too Much To Pay Ministry Executives? Transparency should be a non-negotiable for donors
MinistryWatch’s annual lists of highly paid executives, just published, are among our most read posts of the year. They also generate the most questions and comments. I’m going to take this EXTRA episode to answer some of these questions, and to ask a few of my own.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. Until next time, may God bless you!

Jan 10, 2025 • 24min
Ep. 426 : Scandal Plagued Orange Merges, Sean Feucht Ministries, John MacArthur Health Update
On today’s program, Orange—a church curriculum publisher who faced its share of scandal last year—announces plans to merge with another organization. We’ll have details.
Also, an Atlanta Church gives $100 million to missions. We’ll take a look.
And, Sean Feucht Ministries’ transparency grade drops to an “F”—and its Donor Confidence Score plunges to a 21…out of 100.
But first, Grace Community Church responds to rumors that pastor John MacArthur is on the verge of death. California megachurch pastor and author John MacArthur remains in the hospital undergoing tests as he recovers from a difficult year of health issues, including a heart-valve replacement. On Sunday, Grace Community Church elder updated the congregation, where MacArthur has pastored since 1969.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today’s program include Daniel Ritchie, Kim Roberts, Marci Seither, Shannon Cuthrell, Brittany Smith, and Christina Darnell.
A special thanks to The NonProfit Times and Generous Giving for contributing material for this week’s podcast.
Until next time, may God bless you.
MANUSCRIPT:
FIRST SEGMENT
Warren:
Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you from Charlotte, North Carolina.
Natasha:
And I’m Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado. Happy New Year and welcome to the MinistryWatch podcast!
Warren:
On today’s program, Orange—a church curriculum publisher who faced its share of scandal last year—announces plans to merge with another organization. We’ll have details.
Also, an Atlanta Church gives $100 million to missions. We’ll take a look.
And, Sean Feucht Ministries’ transparency grade drops to an “F”—and its Donor Confidence Score plunges to a 21…out of 100.
Natasha:
But first, Grace Community Church responds to rumors that pastor John MacArthur is on the verge of death.
Warren:
California megachurch pastor and author John MacArthur remains in the hospital undergoing tests as he recovers from a difficult year of health issues, including a heart-valve replacement.
On Sunday, Grace Community Church elder updated the congregation, where MacArthur has pastored since 1969.
The church announced that he had three surgeries in the second half of 2024 and his recovery has been slower than expected, with occasional setbacks affecting his heart, lungs, and kidneys.
Doctors have not yet discovered any single root cause for these diverse troubles, and Pastor John has been hospitalized for the past two weeks, undergoing tests and treatments.”
Natasha:
Those unknowns have sparked some rumors.
Warren:
Last week, Grace to You Executive Director Phil Johnson posted a social media update in response to rumors circulating that MacArthur was in a hospital dying. “John IS currently hospitalized, and the persistence of these symptoms is a concern,” Johnson said.
“But the suggestion that he has been handed over to palliative care is a sinister lie, concocted by this pernicious character who has been lying about JM and GCC for 5+ years. Ignore him.”
MacArthur has been known to keep health issues private and within a closed circle—a sentiment Johnson echoed. “Those who need to know more details do know,” he said. “There's no conspiracy by the elders at GCC to keep people from hearing information they need to know.”
Natasha:
Next up: the latest with Orange.
Warren:
Orange, the Christian curriculum company that hosts one of the country’s most prominent family ministry conferences, is merging with Amazing Life Foundation.
Amazing Life Foundation is an umbrella organization for several other products, such as Amazing Kids and the BSide App, designed to equip churches with tools and content.
Orange and Amazing Life will “operate with shared oversight,” but Orange will maintain its existing staff and operations...

Jan 8, 2025 • 25min
Ep. 425: A Conversation With “Abortion Abolitionist” Bradley Pierce
Here at MinistryWatch we are energized by the pro-life issue. I’ve been writing about the pro-life issue myself for more than 40 years, and John Stonestreet and I included a chapter on the life issue in our book Restoring All Things. The MinistryWatch 1000 database includes a category for pro-life organizations, and I would personally encourage all of our listeners to get active in local pro-life organizations. I would also encourage you to make the life issue a part of your giving priorities.
That said, I’ve also noticed that all is not well in the pro-life ecosystem. There is much infighting and disagreement over priorities. Those who have placed their trust in politics have had to contend with the reality that the number of abortions in America have actually gone up since the Dobbs decision overturned Roe v. Wade. On the other hand, those who have ignored politics have had no part in the pro-life victories that we have seen in at least 14 states.
On today’s program I unpack some of these issues with someone who calls himself an “abortion abolitionist.” Bradley Pierce is a constitutional attorney who has drafted legislation in more than 30 states supporting self-defense and parental rights, as well as civil liberties and the right to life. He leads the Foundation to Abolish Abortion and is the executive producer of the video series “Abortion Free,” which you can find on YouTube.
He spoke to me via zoom from his office near Austin, Texas.
Thanks for joining us today.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. Until next time, may God bless you.

Jan 3, 2025 • 8min
Ep. 424: What’s In Store For MinistryWatch in 2025 More podcasts, more enterprise journalism, more "data journalism"
Welcome to the first podcast of 2025!
2024 was a good year for MinistryWatch. We have much to celebrate, and to thank God for. Still, I learned a long time ago that in a dynamic media, cultural, and economic environment, it is important not to be complacent. That’s why I wanted to give you a “peek under the hood” at some of the things that I think MinistryWatch could do better in the year ahead.
More “Enterprise” Journalism. I think breaking news has its place, but MinistryWatch doesn’t want to be one of a half-dozen news organizations trying to be the first outlet to bring you an inconsequential news story. We want to cover significant stories, with added value and context. We want to be the place that connects the dots, that gives you not just the “what” but the “why.” Our coverage of Bible translation organizations, “trend stories” such as the growing use of donor-advised funds and the increase in the number of ministries that fail to file Form 990s, are examples of this kind of “enterprise” journalism. Look for more such coverage in the year ahead.
More Data-Driven Journalism. As I’ve already said, our database makes MinistryWatch unique. That’s why we want to curate more stories from our rich data storehouse in the year ahead. We already do monthly lists and “Ministry Spotlights” that highlight important changes in our database, not to mention our “Weekly Review” that highlights all the changes in the database for that week. In the year ahead we hope to highlight these anomalies and changes and help you see their significance.
More Podcast Content. We currently do a weekly roundup of the news, as well as an interview of an interesting newsmaker each week on the MinistryWatch podcast. Beginning no later than the second quarter, we hope to increase to three episodes a week, adding both more interviews and more commentary. Again, our goal will be to context and meaning to what is going on in the news.
For those of you who have been on this journey with us over the past five years: Thank You. For those of you who are just discovering MinistryWatch: Welcome Aboard!
We pray that, in God’s good providence, our best years are still ahead of us.
The producer for today’s podcast is Jeff McIntosh. I’m your host Warren Smith. Until next time, may God bless you.

Dec 20, 2024 • 30min
Ep. 423: Chateauroux Fellowship, Olivet University, and Generosity Leads to Happiness
On today’s program, Chateauroux Fellowship claims to connect billionaires with Christian ministries…but we were not able to confirm with any ministries that they had received any of the funds. We’ll have details.
And, a small reformed denomination commissioned a report by Guidepost solutions to investigate handling of sexual abuse cases…then it reversed its decision. We’ll take a look at what happened.
Plus, a new study finds that Christians are the most charitable…and the happiest.
But first, California revokes Olivet University’s approval to operate—but the school says it plans to stay open anyway.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today’s program include Kim Roberts, Jessica Eturralde, Scott Bauer, Tony Mator, Heather Hahn, Diana Chandler, Brittany Smith, Christina Darnell—and you, Warren.
A special thanks to Baptist Press and United Methodist News for contributing material for this week’s podcast.
Until next time, may God bless you.
MANUSCRIPT:
FIRST SEGMENT
Warren:
Hello everybody. I’m Warren Smith, coming to you from Charlotte, North Carolina, and wishing you a merry Christmas!
Natasha:
And I’m Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado. And we’d like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast.
Warren:
On today’s program, Chateauroux Fellowship claims to connect billionaires with Christian ministries…but we were not able to confirm with any ministries that they had received any of the funds. We’ll have details.
And, a small reformed denomination commissioned a report by Guidepost solutions to investigate handling of sexual abuse cases…then it reversed its decision. We’ll take a look at what happened.
Plus, a new study finds that Christians are the most charitable…and the happiest.
Natasha:
But first, California revokes Olivet University’s approval to operate—but the school says it plans to stay open anyway.
Warren:
The California Department of Consumer Affairs Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education has ordered that Olivet University’s approval to operate be revoked. The order also requires the school to pay $64,432 to cover the costs of the investigation and prosecution.
Because of this action, Olivet must cease enrolling new students and must propose a planned “teach out” current students.
Natasha:
What’s the background to Olivet?
Warren:
Olivet, founded by controversial figure David Jang, was approved to operate by the state in 2005, but that approval expired in 2014 and has not been renewed.
In March 2023, a complaint was filed against Olivet, seeking a revocation or suspension of its approval to operate. It included 14 reasons the state should revoke the approval, including failing to include a face-to-face instructional component, failing to provide all the courses included in the approval, failing to have necessary evaluations of faculty, and failing to demonstrate that Olivet has required financial resources.
Last year, a group of former Olivet students sued Jang and the university, claiming they were part of an international labor trafficking scheme run by Jang and his disciples.
According to reporting by Newsweek, Olivet University is also under investigation by the Department of Homeland Security for money laundering, human trafficking, and visa fraud.
By the way, every time we write about Olivet University, we get emails asking if this is the same as Olivet Nazarene University in Illinois. It is not. The two schools are not related in any way.
Natasha:
What’s our next story?
Warren:
If the plan of the Chateauroux Fellowship and its director Christian Thomas Lee comes to pass as promised, it would likely be the largest philanthropic initiative aimed at Christian ministries in American history.
According to the group’s own website,

Dec 19, 2024 • 13min
Ep. 422: Evangelicals and Social Media – Helpful or Harmful? An interview with Mark Driestadt
A lot of us have misgivings about social media. We use it, but we somehow have a sense that we use it too much, and we have a growing body of research suggesting that it’s bad for young people.
Grey Matter Research and Infinity Concepts have a new study out called “Helpful or Harmful? Evangelicals and Social Media.” On today’s podcast, we unpack the results of that survey with one of its authors, Mark Driestadt. He’s the president of Infinity Concepts and someone I’ve come to know and respect over the past few years as one of the “wise men” in ministry fundraising, marketing and communications. Regular listeners to the podcast may remember that I’ve had Mark on the program before because, well, he’s consistently done interesting and helpful work.
That’s why, Mark, I’m delighted to welcome you back to the program.
The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. I’m Warren Smith. I hope you’ll join me again on Friday when we do our regular round up of the week’s news with my co-host Natasha Cowden. Until then, may God bless you.
Get your free copy of the study here.