The Leadership Habit

The Future of Leadership, Technology and the Workplace with Futurist, Thomas Frey In this episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn De Wall interviews Thomas Frey, founder of the DaVinci Institute. For those that don’t know Thomas, he’s a futurist and considered Google’s top-rated futurist speaker and is IBM’s most award-winning engineer. Over the past decade, Thomas has built an enormous following around the world based on his ability to develop accurate visions of the future and describe the opportunities ahead. Listen in as Thomas discusses the future of work and leadership. Full Transcript Below: Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and thank you so much for tuning in to our newest episode of the leadership habit. Today I am interviewing an amazing expert. His name is Thomas Frey. He is a futurist, speaker, and author, and we spent the last half hour before this just talking about all of the different thoughts that he has. Not all of them, but many, and it was so great to just hear your perspective. So Thomas, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. Thomas Frey:  All right, let’s have some fun on this show. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, yeah. That was for those that don’t know you, even though you’ve traveled the world, we just talked about how you were in China and Russia, you’re everywhere. For our listeners that haven’t heard of Thomas Frey yet, tell us about yourself from your words. What is a Futurist? Thomas Frey:  All right. I work as a futurist, and my job is to help expand people’s understanding of what the future holds. Now I tend to do that primarily through technology-driven change. So how the technology is affecting us, but sometimes there’s a lot of other factors that come into play. And so it is this rich vein of opportunity. And the way I kind of, the way I think about this is that if we, we, we make decisions today based on our understanding of what the future holds. So it’s this vision of the future that we have in our head determines our actions today. So if I change somebody’s vision of the future, I changed the way they make decisions today. Now that’s a critical factor because every presentation I do, that’s my goal, is to change people’s vision of the future. And as a result, they walk out of the room, making different decisions. Jenn DeWall:  Gotcha. That’s a big challenge. And I’m sure there’s a lot of people that want to, or it’s difficult for them to see a future that’s different than their past. Thomas Frey:  Right? I mean, it’s real easy to understand, see if we’ve all personally experienced the past as we look around us, we see evidence of the past all around us in all information would come into contact with as essentially history. So the past is very knowable, and yet we’re going to be spending the rest of our lives in the future. So it’s almost as if we’re walking backwards into the future. And, and so that’s the challenge- is to help turn people around, give them some idea of what the future might hold because we are focusing on what’s happened in the past because that’s what we know that’s very knowable. It’s very understandable for us. The future, though, that’s this whole vague area that is yet to unfold. And so that’s, that’s my playground. Jenn DeWall:  That is a fun place to play, especially with just understanding how much technology has even changed in the last few years. Especially more so if you look at it over a few decades, but even the last few years, how different technology looks like, and what, how that impacts organizations or individuals. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. And, and it’s changing so quickly, just think about a child growing up today but a five-year-old today what they will experience over the next 10 years and 20 years and, and so on. I mean, just in, in through the eyes of a child, how the world is shifting and changing cause they have a whole different perspective on the world we live in than we do. And my dad just turned 93 years old today, and he has a radically different perspective than I do because he was, he was born before World War II, and he has that whole generation that type of thinking. And so how do we take our minds and put it into the future and then we start getting a better grasp as to what’s going to happen there. It gives us an advantage if we can get, make our decisions even 1% more correct in the future because of studying it and understanding what’s going on, it gives us a huge advantage over our competitors. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You’re two steps ahead of them. Three steps ahead of them. I know that we didn’t plan to talk to this, but how do you even start to position yourself where you can see it even 1% greater or more correct than what you were before Thomas Frey:  There’s a number of different techniques that we use. These are what’s referred to as anticipatory thinking protocols. These are the tools that futurists use. Some of them work better than others. I have a number of techniques that I like to use myself. One of them I call situational futuring, which I will take some technology and extend it out 20 years, and then I will create bodies of information like how will this affect a housewife, how will this affect an entrepreneur or a school teacher? And started going around and creating these scenarios around that. And then that creates this little mosaic of information about that. And then, once you start creating these scenarios about the future, then you try to break them. So, well, what if this didn’t happen this way? What if this broke here? But if there’s a law against it, or what if these companies come out with something that outdates that technology and, and, and so we come at it from a lot of different angles. But that’s the fun part, I think. Anyway. The Future of Robots Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Well and there’s a lot of fun things even that were just coming through my head right now, whether it be a Roomba, you know, those little vacuum cleaners that go around the floor, like thinking what would those look like in 25 years? How will that functionality change? Thomas Frey:  Well, let’s, let’s just take that idea. Okay, you have a device, some robotic device. It’s cleaning your house. Now that robotic device has to know what’s valuable and what isn’t. Now, this device is going on cleaning the living room, and it comes across a piece of paper. How does it know if that’s a valuable piece of paper or a piece of trash? Now it could be a dollar bill, it could be a birth certificate, it could be any number of valuable things, or it could just be a page turn out of a magazine. How does it know that? So over the coming years, we’re going to be teaching our robots how to think, what’s important, and what isn’t. Now, as an individual, we place an emotional value on every object in our house. This chair is worth more than this table. This couch is worth more than this lamp over here. Thomas Frey:  And so we have an emotional value that we place on everything. So we don’t, we don’t consciously think about this, but we have a values system that we instill in the things that we have around us. And it’s so if we’re going to start training our robot how to clean a house, then we are instilling that value system into it. And that in our personal bias goes along with that. Which is something that’s going to be a challenge sometime in the future. But I mean, we have to teach this robot. If it’s cleaning the walls, you don’t spray the wall with water cause the electrical outlets will start shorting out. You have to- these are things that it has to learn. And so all of these things no. Now I talk about, we talked back and forth to our devices, whether it’s Alexa, Cortana, Google, whatever it might be. We talk back and forth. We’re building the brains of the robot because he sinks are getting smarter as we go. So the more we talk back and forth, the more conversations we have with them they’re going to get smarter. And so over time, they can start making complicated decisions. Now, when we talk about building the brains of the robot, the robot might be a driverless car in the future. The robot might be a flying drone. It might be an actual robot, but these brains we’re training, or it may be a vacuum cleaner for that matter. We’re going to start installing these brains and everything around us. And so that and then we’ll, we’ll ask Siri, Hey Siri, what kind of beer am I in the mood for today? When Technology Changes, We Must Change with It Thomas Frey:  Yeah. But think about getting into a driverless car in the future, they’re going to be watching you. Because the government wants to prevent terrorists from driving a bomb into a building or blowing up people or unleashing a contagious disease that would go from one car to another. So, so there are all kinds of sensors. There are all kinds of audio recordings, video recordings, and stuff that will likely go on inside of driverless cars. Even though people would prefer that that not happen. You want some privacy in your car, but there’s a trade-off for privacy and convenience, and there’s a security aspect of it too. Is it okay to put my dog into a driverless car by themselves to go to doggy daycare? Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. Thomas Frey:  And then do you want to get into that car after that dog has been in it? Is it okay to put my child into a driverless car to go to school? I’m going to invent the car that will recognize a parent on one end and a teacher on another end. Can I put a six-year-old kid into a driverless car to go to school, and for how long? I mean, we haven’t had these discussions. These are public policy issues that nobody’s talked about. Jenn DeWall:  Right. Even the minimum age of what kids can ride in a car seat, but then if it comes to going into a driverless car. Thomas Frey:  For how long? 10 minutes. Okay. I mean things go wrong if a kid’s by themselves a half-hour, is that too long? A six-year-old kid. I mean they can get sick, they can throw up, they go get panic attacks. Jenn DeWall:  But then if you program it to identify them, it could drive them to a hospital. Right. That’s just, Oh my gosh, I’m blowing my mind just thinking about, because I know that even in my own lifetime, the internet didn’t, it wasn’t as prevalent. I mean, I think that the conceptual theory of the internet was there, but in terms of it being a mainstream thing that people used. AOL to get dial-up internet that took so long. And the fact that now everyone has a personal, my grandparents are in their mid-eighties, and they use social media. They have their smartphones, and they have an Alexa, she’s got a Kindle. So the books go right there. I mean, it’s crazy, right? I can’t even conceptualize what that is going to look like in 20 years, let alone five years. Because I feel like the pace of technology is so quick. Thomas Frey:  So the iPhone, the first iPhone, came out in 2007. I’ll keep that in mind cause that was 12 years ago, you know, just think of all the things that we didn’t have before the iPhone came out. We didn’t have any mobile apps. So for them, Twitter just barely got started before that. I mean GPS was really bad. Jenn DeWall:  Facebook too. Facebook is only 15 years old. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. And everybody owned a camera. Now they used their phone. Jenn DeWall:  Great. And then you save everything on the cloud. Why print out those pictures. You don’t need those The Future of Cash Thomas Frey:  Buying these damn expensive printers, with the color cartridges that cost $40 for the color cartridge. Yeah. Yeah, that’s crazy. So we’ve, we’ve altered our lives in so many ways, and we just can’t even remember all of the changes that happened along the way. I remember going into stores having to write a check and having to show through three different forms of ID. Well, first of all, I’d have to wait for the person in front of me that had to do all this too, and then taking a half hour to get that person checked out and then it came to me and I would have to do the same thing. And then the checkout lanes were really, really long and we had to have all these people working there to just shore up all the credentials and everything and make sure that everybody paid with, with guaranteed funds or something. It was such a laborious process. And, and we, we forget where we’ve come from because that, that was just super painful. And now we’re, we’re at an age where things you just flash your phone, and suddenly you’ve paid for it. Now over in China, it’s really interesting because, in China, they’re using Alipay and WeChat Pay to pay for things. They don’t use credit cards over there, and they’ve stopped using cash for the most part. So even if you’re a beggar on the street, the beggars have a QR code out next to them so that you can, you can send them a few bucks through your phone. Or if you’re a busker on the street, you’re a street performer; you have a QR code out there so you can get your tips that way. Jenn DeWall:  So there’s no change of hands and money. No physical change of hands. Thomas Frey:  Yeah, no, nobody’s carrying cash anymore. Jenn DeWall:  How does that impact, I know that FinTech is on the rise. How does that impact from your own perspective, like how would are even shifting out of a paper currency, that handheld currency, how does that impact our traditional banking system? Thomas Frey:  See, when you paid for something in cash, that’s a painfully laborious, I mean a cash transaction. The money actually ended up getting counted at least seven times throughout this transaction. The person handing you the money counted the money out. Then the person receiving it counted the money again. At the end of the shift. They had to count up how much was taken on that day, and then you, and you’re going to make a deposit, you have to count it into the deposit. The person at the bank taking it in has to count it again, and at the end of the banking shift, then they counted again. And so just the number of times that that cash has to get counted, just think of the labor content in cash and it’s just massively huge. Now when you’re dealing with digital money, it’s just numbers on a spreadsheet. It’s way easier than counting the cash in and out Jenn DeWall:  And everything’s done by a computer. So the human error, everything is so much less. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. Nobody’s going to slide a $20 bill in their pocket if it’s all digital. Jenn DeWall:  Right. And then I guess how does it impact the ability to counterfeit money? If it’s that way, how can you possibly, then- Thomas Frey:  You have some really smart hackers out there that are trying to figure out ways of duplicating money. So I send, I send $100,000 over here. Well, let’s duplicate it and send another a hundred over here, and they won’t know the difference. Well that’s, that’s the big trick. That’s the- you have to make sure that that’s not possible. Artificial Intelligence and the Future of the Workplace Jenn DeWall:  Gosh, I knew that I was going to ask you a million questions that we’re also going to go off-topic, but we can, so we’ve already had I really love the conversation that we’ve had thus far. I can change gears and go into what we had talked about talking about, but I almost don’t want to, but I do want to because it’s just neat to think about how our future, I guess if we bring it back, even going into AI, how are you seeing AI have an impact on the workforce? Thomas Frey:  You know, virtually everybody today has this nagging anxiety. Am I still going to have a job five years from now? And if not, what new skills do I need to learn to be relevant in the future? That’s the that’s it’s kind of this nagging concern that virtually everybody has. And, and so it’s a moving target. It really is a moving target. But the way I look at this is the internet is a very sophisticated communication tool that enables us to align the needs of a business with the talent of individuals and far more precise ways than ever before. So rather than hiring somebody full time, we bring them on for two months or two weeks or two days or even two hours. And so I think in the future that we’re, we’re not it’s not us versus the AI. It’s not us versus the robot. It’s us with them. And so I think we’re moving into this era of super employment only. It’s not full-time jobs. It’s all gigs. And so the big problem we have today is nobody’s teaching people how to, how to run the business of you. That’s, that’s a challenge. Nobody thinks of themselves as a business unit because, in the future, we’re going to have all these freelance opportunities, but nobody’s really good at, at managing that. And so that takes a variety of skills. You suddenly, you have to learn how to set up a business entity around yourself. Then you have to learn how to price your services, how to negotiate deals, how to write contracts, how to, how to market yourself, how to sell yourself, even creating your books, doing the accounting getting insurance. All of these things that you have to, you have to take on once you’re an entrepreneur. And so nobody’s teaching people how to do that. We have a little over one and a half million people today that are freelancers in the United States, making over a hundred thousand dollars a year. So if you want to break into that high paid freelancer category, you have to suddenly hang out with other high paid freelancers. That’s, that’s the best way to learn how to do that. But how do you do that? Because those freelancers don’t want to be found. And so it’s, so, it becomes rather tricky. But I, I find this whole category very interesting, and it’s, it’s not that AI is taking all of our jobs away. AI becomes another tool in our toolbox. It gives us the ability to do things and accomplish things that we could never do in the past. Jenn DeWall:  Work smarter, not harder. And it’s it, I mean, I didn’t think about that, that everyone slowly is becoming maybe their own personal brand in a way that they never even needed to find that value of in themselves that they could bring, they never needed to see that beyond or outside of their annual review of how did you do this year? They didn’t have to consciously think about those goals for themselves. Thomas Frey:  Pretty much we’ve been trained from birth to be a cog in the wheel. We’ve been trained to be part of the system if you will. And, and in the middle of all that, we’re being taught that we’re not that important, but the reality is, is we’re very important to us. Are there. There’s, there’s a group of people that are out there that everybody has their own fan club and so your ability to manage your own fan club, to grow it, to communicate with your fan club, to have all the inputs and outputs with your fan, that ability to manage your fan club. That’s a critical skill for the future. Nobody’s teaching people how to do that, and that is so important because, in the end, it ends up being all about you because it, you are the business, The Future of College Degrees Jenn DeWall:  You know you had written a blog article about your stance on- and it’s titled 32 Future Accomplishments that will give you more Status and an Influence than a College Degree, which right now I wouldn’t say that college- unless you might be taking that entrepreneurial track and you’re learning a little bit more about that- I don’t think college really prepares us for any type of soft skill introspective thinking and in the way that maybe aligns with what we would need to have in the future. Thomas Frey:  Yeah, so I like to use this illustration. It actually never unfolds quite like this. But if you think about somebody from my college sitting down with an 18-year-old kid and they actually never say this, but this is the message that comes across there. They’re telling the 18-year-old kid, Hey, do you want to drive that fast car? Do you want to live in that house, in the mountains or on the beach? All you have to do is sign here, and all your dreams will come true. Now they don’t actually say that, but that’s the message that the kid is hearing. And they’re thinking, Oh well, this is an easy one. And it’s a methodical process that you can step your way through to get a college degree. And invariably, you’ll start off with, with really high expectations of yourself. I’m going to go down this engineering path, and I want to take some really hard classes to test things out cause I’ve been smart in high school and stuff. And, and then if you take a few classes, you say, you know, I’m not quite cutting it, so maybe I’ll switch to a degree in economics or something. And, and then, yeah, yeah. I’m still not passing the economics classes either. Maybe I’ll just take something easier just to, I got to salvage something out of this and after two or three years, then yeah, I need to graduate somehow. And so they’ll take whatever degree they can get just to get out of the door. And they’ve made so many compromises along the way that they actually have nothing of value at the end. Now, this is, this is what typically happens. Now, somebody graduates from college that can’t find a job. So after a couple of months, they pick up a project, then pick up another project, another project before they realize that they’re working as a freelancer and just that nobody’s taught them how to be a freelancer. So they’re doing it begrudgingly thinking that the world somehow owed him a job, never realizing that that could be the preferred lifestyle for them. That they could actually say no to the things that they’re not good at, say yes to the things that they want to do, and actually take control of their own destiny. Now that is a whole separate issue, from what they’re thinking because that’s nobody’s actually coached them to go in that direction. Jenn DeWall:  People don’t even know they have the choice. I think I heard the expression, the majority of people go through life on autopilot every single day. They just are not consciously aware that they are the ones that are in the driver’s seat. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. And there are so many conscious choices we’re making. We’re, we’re just set in default mode. We just click on the default option all the time. Now, somebody who wants to take the initiative, though, that’s where there are all these other options that are out there that nobody’s talking about. Like if I want to design a video game as an example, people who design video games, that’s, that’s learning how to do that, that’s, that’s more than a college degree and then being successful at it, that’s even way better. If I’m going to become an inventor, learning the invention process, how to file a patent, how to, how to market your invention, how to create prototypes, and all that. That’s the equivalent of a college degree; maybe if it’s successful in an invention, that’s even better. If, if I’m going to write, write a script for a TV series if it becomes a hit series, that’s way better. Then, if I’m going to open my own business, if it’s a successful business, that’s even way better. If I get elected to a city council- that’s equivalent to a college degree, if I get elected to higher office, that’s even better. And so you can just start understanding that these are not, there’s not a methodical path you can go down to do any of these. You have to make conscious decisions that you want to stick your neck out. You want to be bold and different and try things that are unique and different and not be afraid of failure. That’s, that’s all part of the game. The Future of Niche Markets Jenn DeWall:  Right? And it’s, you know, we’re, if that’s a challenging piece because as we age, we obviously get more comfortable. So that fear of failure becomes a lot bigger than what it is. Thomas Frey: Yeah. There’s a bigger downside mean, if you own three or four houses and you and, and you have 250 people working for you, a failure can look radically different than, than somebody who’s, who’s all alone living in an apartment that doesn’t have much to lose. So, so yeah, but then, the kind of the trick is to learn how to fail faster. Because you’re gonna make mistakes. There are just things that are gonna go wrong, but just keep at it. Just keep plugging away and just be relentless and, and try new things. There are so many new opportunities coming out of the woodwork. When I was a kid growing up, everybody wanted to become a rock star. Everybody wanted to be on stage. Jenn DeWall:  Who did you want to be? Thomas Frey:  Alright. You know, I had bands like Led Zeppelin and The Who and, and there are lots of big bands – Jethro Tull. There are lots of big bands out there. But, but now you talk to young kids, they either want to be the one to be a pro gamer. They want to play video games and, and win the big tournaments, or they are they want to be a YouTube star that’s an easier path actually because there’s, there’s hardly any barrier to entry to becoming a YouTube star. Well, at least getting YouTubes posted. Yeah, we have something like 400, 400 hours of YouTube video are going, getting posted every, every minute under YouTube. Which is just absolutely crazy. Yeah. If you want to create a product and sell it on Amazon, you can do that. But just understand that Amazon currently has 606 million products listed on Amazon. Jenn DeWall:  Wow. How big of a store would you have to have to host everything that Amazon sells? Thomas Frey:  It’s pretty crazy because it’s such a distributed network and everything. See, in the past, if you came up with the idea for a product that only appealed to one in 35,000 people, that would have been a product that nobody wanted to put on the store shelf because the market was too small. Nobody would want to put that in a store. Today you can, you can make a really comfortable living out of products that only appealed to one and 35,000 people. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, niche products. Thomas Frey:  Yeah, because you can communicate with the entire world and, and there are so many products that are even nichier than that, that are on Amazon right now. Jenn DeWall:  I heard about one in our class. The one that I will know that I was shocked about was bacon-flavored dental floss Thomas Frey:  And bacon-flavored bandaids too. Jenn DeWall:  What!? Does it look like a strip of bacon? Thomas Frey:  It does. It does. Yeah. But boy, does that wound heal fast. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Yeah. You wonder like how have we? And then you know, does that, there are so many other problems that can come with that too, of that. Are we doing need to be creating all these things? Like do we need bacon-flavored dental floss? Thomas Frey:  There. There are moments in our life where that’s exactly the answer we’re looking for. Jenn DeWall:  That’s true. So going and thinking about, you know, college. College isn’t necessarily giving us, especially if they have a common path, which is that evolution of the kind of bouncing through and then ending with a degree, but not necessarily one that is a STEM specific degree where they can add a lot of immediate value. It’s more conceptual, and it’s not necessarily all applicable, but you talked about that there are so many different ways that we can create success for ourselves. They’re unrelated to the college degree, and that will align with the direction of where we’re going to be going in the future. And I think this is a valuable topic obviously with knowing how much debt is out there with student loans and that the rate that individuals are being paid isn’t necessarily enough to be able to pay for them. It’s just not necessarily giving us the skills that maybe are in alignment with the future or the ones that we actually are going to use to create our success at that moment. So what do you do? Like for the people that are maybe the people that are even thinking, I’m not going to take a risk because I don’t have a college degree. Right. Hanging their hat fully on that being the sole way to say that you are accomplished. Certifications or Degrees? Which is Bettter? Thomas Frey:  Yeah. One one of the columns I wrote recently is asked this question, is, are certifications today now more valuable than college degrees? Because we can get certifications in areas like cybersecurity AWS, which is Amazon web services, or Google cloud management. We can do a lot of healthcare certifications as well. And all of these, most of these we can get within less than a year, we can get these certifications and then we’re off and running, making money usually well-paying jobs. And in a lot of the tech spaces that the tech world really doesn’t care what your, what your credentials are. They just care whether or not you can do the job. And, and so all of these are unfolding quickly, and the certifications are coming out of the woodwork because that’s, that’s a quick way to kind of separate the wheat from the chaff. So as somebody’s gone through and learn these particular skills that are valuable to us, and so as, as an example, there’s a lot of these, these certifications that will pay six figures and more. Google cloud management, that’s one of the highest-paid ones. Now, artificial intelligence, that’s one of the highest-paid on cybersecurity, just certificates. They aren’t combined with certain certification because you have to take a test, you do have to take a test, but they don’t care what classes you took to get there. Then it’s just that you take, if you pass the test, then you’re good to go. And, and so my son, as an example. He didn’t have a college degree, but he learned how to program, and so he’d go into interviews, programming interviews, and they would, they would grill them. I mean, these interviews would be a full day long and he’d be grilled by three different groups just to make sure that he was good at what he was doing and they would give him problems, and then they’d ask him to get up to the whiteboard and to go out there and sketch out the algorithms that you use to solve that problem. And, and as a result, I mean, he worked his way up in the system. Now there’s, there’s a certain group of programmers that are totally self-taught at somewhere, 7 – 9% of all programmers are completely self-taught this, this stuff just makes sense to them. And they’re the ones that generally work their way up into the top of the system because they are so, it’s so natural to them that they’re the savants of the coding world. Now something like 73% of the programmers self-taught on some level, but it’s, it’s the other 27% that I worry about that half to have a teacher teaching them something. Otherwise, you can’t learn it. Those are the ones that aren’t going to progress very far in their life. So this, the tech world is changing things so quickly that we have to stay ahead of the curve, and that’s what’s, what’s really challenging. So we now have options for going out. We have a question, we’d just gone to YouTube, and somebody put a YouTube video up there that we can watch, and we can learn how to solve that problem. Jenn DeWall:  Great. I don’t think I’ve ever gone on to YouTube. Google looked for something and couldn’t find it. I think if I would have to think really hard about, I really don’t think anything comes to mind. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. There might be some really specific niche problems with some really new technology that wouldn’t be up there. But it’s rare because right now it’s, it’s, it’s a mad dash to see who can get the first videos out there on each of these topics. And if you’re, if you’re first, then you’re likely to get much more traffic, and then the traffic turns into ad revenue. And there’s a lot of people making a ton of money on YouTube right now. And these are, these are not old people either. New Ways to Build Brand and Gain Status Jenn DeWall:  No, you can make money, like eating food on YouTube. I’m just amazed by all of the opportunities to generate revenue from different channels. Things that I again have not ever thought of. I’ve, why would I ever think someone would want to pay money to watch me eat a sandwich? But all you need is a camera and a YouTube channel, and you’re good to go. Thomas Frey:  The product is not eating the sandwich. The product is you. And so if people understand that, that it’s about them, how they’re articulating this experience, what they’re going through, their facial expressions, all of this is about them. And, and so they, then it’s the business of you. They are learning to leverage that because this is a unique and different opportunity that did not exist 20 years ago. Nobody could do that then. Jenn DeWall:  Right. How do you think podcasts, knowing that podcasts are, that we’re on a podcast right now, it’s another up and coming medium to be able to share information. How do you think they, they can give you a status, they can give you that level of expertise or how do you think they’ve changed it? Thomas Frey:  The number I came across is that there are something like 700,000 podcasts out there right now, and that number continues to climb. I’m guessing in just a few years we’re going to be up over 5 million different podcasts, but podcasts will be used in lots of different ways. It’ll be used, too. There, there are different revenue streams that go along with it from the advertising to the sponsorship, but it will be used to sell other things as well. And so I think we’re going to find a lot of unique and different ways too, to leverage podcasts. In fact, if you’re a podcast star, that’s, that’s better than a college degree. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, right. You’re, you’re making the sponsorship money. You have the opportunity to likely travel to conferences or go and meet people, and you know, there’s a lot of, great, if you are going back to thinking about why not just find those opportunities that maybe you’re naturally good at instead of forcing yourself through the ones that they’re not, your strengths. Podcasts allow you to pull up anything. Whether it’s thinking about there’s, I mean there are so many different types of topics, whether it’s thinking about a specific dietary lifestyle, lifestyle to wanting to talk about like crime stories. I mean, any type of topic that you can find, like our Leadership Habit podcast, is out there, and it’s interesting that we are able to give voice to even just those niche things. And we were talking about this before the podcast, just understanding how, Oh no, we actually were just talking about this with Amazon, but people have the opportunity to explore niches and make these niches relevant and mainstream, which is very interesting. Thomas Frey:  Right, right. So, and you can associate with other people that have your same quirky niche interest. That’s it. That’s very important. I mean, if you, if you like to do artwork on the sides of buildings, only you like to do just really abstract artwork in reds and greens for whatever reason, you can hang out with other people who like reds and greens on large buildings. That’s a really quirky niche. And so why would you do that? I can’t explain, but that’s your comfort zone. You like being around those people, Jenn DeWall:  Right? You’re like, we’re going to make more of that in the world. What are other ways like outside of college, you know, podcasting, knowing with our, going back, and getting certifications? I know I went back to school, you know, I did my undergrad, I did my master’s, and then I ultimately went back to school again. But well, last time was for a certification. It was for my coaching certification. Yeah. The Future Looks Great for Artists Thomas Frey:  One think about is that right now there’s so much original content that’s being generated online, on original video content. Netflix is spending like four and a half-billion dollars a year. Apple is spending a billion a year. YouTube is spending a bunch of money. The Hulu is, is spending tons of money. There’s, and there are several, several other ones. Amazon has spent a bunch of money on their Amazon Prime stuff, and there has never been a better opportunity for somebody who is a scriptwriter. Somebody who is an actor, actress, people who are lighting guys, camera guys, makeup people. All of this, see, all of this is, is freelance stuff. I mean, this is the way Hollywood has worked for years. Whenever a movie project comes to the play, it attracts all these people to come together and then the citizens over, they disband, and they form around other projects. These projects are happened with greater and greater frequency than ever before. So if you ever had a dream of being a writer for a TV show, now’s your chance. I mean this is, there’s a better chance now of getting into that field than ever before in all history. Cause we are generating so much new content all over the place. Jenn DeWall:  That’s an interesting point because I think when you think about the dream of being, whether it’s an actor or actress or anything supporting us, that you likely think you have to know someone, that’s the only way that you’re going to get in. Or you think that there are just a fixed amount. Like you can’t get in there. It’s a really tough industry to crack. But that’s making decisions off of past data. They’re not acknowledging where we are today and where the future’s going. Thomas Frey:  People are dropping out of their careers of being an insurance salesman, being accountants there. There’s a lot of boring jobs that they felt they had to do in the past. Now suddenly, they have opportunities to be a star on whether it’s on Facebook or whether it’s on Twitter. Whatever it is, they can become a star, and they can leverage that and unique in different ways. And, and suddenly that’s their full-time job. That becomes their income stream. It becomes their, what the world knows them as, and they are no longer just this little hidden person in the back of the room. They can emerge and come out into the sunshine. Jenn DeWall:  That brings me up to; someone had sent me a link for a YouTube video on just someone that he just shares his opinion while he is just drinking wine. I’m sure he makes a lot of money for his YouTube channel through that own TV show that he created for himself. Yeah. The Skills You Need for the Future Thomas Frey:  Yeah. And, and, and so I was told that it’s, it’s all about the frequency and having the video show up on a regular, frequent basis and, and if you do it consistently for four months, then you’ll start noticing this spike in traffic and then it goes up from there. So if you continue to do things like that, you’ll get better over time, but, but stick with it. I mean, don’t just your mind every other day and do something different. If you’re consistent in how you’re doing it, that’s how you build an audience. That’s how you build your fan club. Now there’s, there are lots of things that schools are not teaching today. One of the big things that schools are not teaching today is how to use distraction management. How do you manage yourself in light of all these bright, shiny objects that we have around us? And there are tons of them. So it’s easy to get distracted. So how do we, how do we focus? Nobody’s teaching people how to do that. We’re, we’re not teaching people how to manage their, their, their gigs, how to manage their freelance career. We’re not teaching that. We’re not teaching people how to manage their relationships. Because we can, we can have relationships with people all over the world on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube and LinkedIn and, and so how do, how do we manage that? And then we can have how do we manage our technology? Should I buy this new phone? Should I buy this new computer? This gaming console, should I get this over this one? Nobody’s teaching us how to make those decisions. And so the schools are leaving all of this that’s off the table because the teachers don’t know how to teach that. We’re just teaching all the old stuff that we were taught in the past. But this is the stuff that’s most relevant to young people today as, as a young parent, how do parents manage their kids today because they have a whole bunch of extra decision points that their parents never had to deal with. How much screen time should the kid have? At what age do they get a phone? And then do we have phone curfews? How do we manage security? Should I be tracking my kid all the time? Should I give them some freedom? There are all these weird things that yeah, Jenn DeWall:  Considerations that they never had to even- Thomas Frey:  We don’t have the right rule book yet. Jenn DeWall:  And again, goes, technology is faster than what I think we recognize going back to kids, how they have those apps, and then they can bury them in an app that looks like a calculator. And we’re supposed to, as a parent, I’m not a parent, but parents are supposed to somehow stay current with everything. And they’re sometimes the most, you know, further back, right. They have the technology. They might have a social media account, but they might just have one. They don’t have two, three, four, or five. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. Yeah. And then, how to, how to be self-promoting. How to stick your neck out there and not be afraid of the world sees you for who you are. Because you’re, you’re not a terrible person after all. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. If we could cure That for people, I would feel like that’s the closest way to get world peace ever. It’s just by getting people to really see like it’s okay to be who you are. That’s totally fine. In terms of being a futurist, in terms of being able to make an impact on the world, the only way that you could possibly do it is by being yourself. You replicate someone else’s idea; you’re not adding more value. Thomas Frey:  Right. Right. But we have so many new channels right now that we just had never had in the past. I mean, if you want to, you want to create a Broadway play, if you want to create a new board game, if you want to, there are just things that we can do today that we just never could in the past. And I think everybody should feel empowered by all of this opportunity. And so nobody’s teaching us how to manage the opportunities or how to direct our attention, how to manage our time and our focus and our money and all that. In that process, all of these things I view as on the one hand it was a problem, but on the other hand, it does an opportunity, somebody can solve that problem. And in the middle of solving that problem, you’re solving millions of people’s problems around the world. Jenn DeWall:  What do you think is the best way to pursue personal growth, given that college may not prepare us for the state of where the business is today and where we need to be? We know that we can use and leverage things like social media to become maybe a brand expert or a thought leader, but how do we even, how do we start? How do we start to self-study? Thomas Frey:  Yeah. It’s, it’s, that’s actually a great question because that comes down to us. I’m pretty sure there’s a YouTube channel that will answer. Jenn DeWall:  Of course, there’s probably a 500. I just have to find them. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. So that’s, that’s an interesting question because we don’t know how to focus our attention very well and we don’t know how to, how to take that thing that we’re focused on and monetize it and turn it into some sort of a revenue-generating income stream and, and then something that we can actually rely on of, because some of these are, some of these are such quirky areas. You might be the first one in the world can be doing something like this. And so so it actually makes money. Yeah. Well, I guess so. Never tried it before. Virtual Reality in the Future Jenn DeWall:  And that is interesting because I wonder if, because they haven’t seen it, especially if it doesn’t have an imprint on technology, are you, then he may be more reluctant to even pursue it because it’s not validated by the technology. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. So if you think about all of the ways that VR and AR are going to get used in the future of this virtual reality, augmented reality, and it’s, it’s falling under this big category and mixed reality. So we’re simulating things that we can never do in the past. And so we’re going to have these mixed reality channels we can go to and restore all of the things that we’ve created on these channels. And so, like a YouTube, you can sort through it, and you can find whatever thing you’re looking for only at it will appear three-dimensional. You can be part of that experience- new and different. So we’re going to have mixed reality stars out there that have figured out how to monetize that, how to leverage that. And then even the idea of how do you create an ad, a VR ad that’s somehow in the space, you know, your product placement or whatever it might be, that’s three dimensionalized hanging in space somewhere as you’re going through this crazy experience. And then, then they’re going to have games that move into three-dimensional games and all that. I wrote this column a while back on this idea of how much it would be worth to sell the VR rights to NFL football. I mean it had to do with that whole idea that sometime in the future, not too distant future, we’re going to be able to put on a VR helmet and watch a football game and, and we’re going to want to immerse ourselves in it so that we can then, I think in the future all the players will have little cameras around their helmets. And so then you can pick out whatever player you want to be, and you can put yourself down on the field and experience what that player’s going through and then with, with haptic feedback, then if they get hit, then you can feel it. I’m not as bad as they do, but, but, but then you can become the quarterback. You can become a wide receiver or a defensive tackle, whatever you want to be on the field, and you’re right down there with the other players. Now the problem with experience, how much would that be worth? How much extra would you pay to do that? Now, if you do that, watching a football game tends to be a social experience. You’re with friends, and you’re having pizza and beer and hot dogs, whatever. Suddenly you’ve taken yourself out of the room of all your friends because you have this experience going on in your own head. Suddenly you forget where you put your beer, where your pizza is, and all the conversations going on in the room don’t involve you because you’re so wrapped up in being on the field there with the other players. Yeah. How does that work? I mean, that’s a problem on the one hand, but it’s also an opportunity for somebody to figure that out. On the other hand. Jenn DeWall:  Well, and how does VR impact, I know with the, with the cell phone, with virtual communities, how that’s drastically changed the way that people socialize in many people would say, or some people say not in a great way because people are losing that ability to have those direct face to face conversations or picking up the phone. If you take it to one step further and go to VR and you can’t share that experience with them, then how much further away are you or how much more connected are you? I mean, those are just different. Those are different thoughts that came through Jenn’s brain. Well, I was thinking about that is how would be our impact, our ability to socialize with people if you can’t share it with them. Thomas Frey:  We’re very social creatures by nature, but I get this question quite a bit. How long will it be before meeting somebody virtually will be as good as meeting somebody in person? We’re still a long way from that. I mean, we’re still, if we’re doing a virtual meeting, we still, we’re going to miss that little bead of sweat falling down there forehead or, or some of the body language that they’re using or just the things, the sidebar conversations happening before or after. And, and so I kind of come to the conclusion that as soon as we can make a virtual meeting as good as a physical meeting, we’re still not going to go there. So somehow, the virtual meeting has to be better than meeting somebody physically. So if you can answer that question of what constitutes better, there’s a whole world of opportunity out there for you if you can. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. What does better look like? Even from a virtual side? Cause I noticed that there’s a reluctance to want to have meetings virtually because they think they maybe aren’t, they’re just not the same. And I would say that some of them actually go the same way, but what would make them better then? Is it a full sensory experience? Being able to have a closer view or you can see that bead of sweat, or you can smell the pizza that they’re eating. Thomas Frey:  You’re monitoring all their vitals, did their heart rate go up, did their brain waves go off on a different tangent. What happened? Jenn DeWall:  Oh wait, could you even picture if you could tell when people’s minds started to wander if that was the level- you’re like, I had this conversation with you, and now you’re going a completely different direction. Thomas Frey:  He’s not paying attention. He’s dreaming right now. I think he fell asleep. Yeah. Jenn DeWall:  You could start to actually be like, and I can tell how attentive you are now with technology. How would that change as a performance review with the bus? You were only attentive 50% of the years, so we are not going to pay you your annual raise. Technology and Social Isolation Thomas Frey:  Right? Yeah. So anyway, that becomes this weird scenario that is that going to happen sometime in the future? We don’t know. Will we get to that point. I think we’re, and we’re social creatures by nature. We want to be around other people. We have this kind of this need to be around other human beings. And technology is very isolating. Technology is very isolating because sometime within the next ten years, I will be able to jump into a car and go to Chicago, and it will drive nonstop well until it has to charge up or something along the way. But that’s, that’s just going to be little interludes, but go all the way to Chicago, and I won’t talk to a single person. I’ll be watching video games playing video games, watching movies, and just doing all kinds of things inside of the ship while sleeping. And I don’t have to socialize at all. So that’s, that’s very isolating, and I think we might have more and more things like that. Technology tends to pull us away from other humans. Lots of gamers spend their entire day in a basement. They’re, they’re having great fun, but yeah, pretty isolated. Yeah. So they’re kind of weird individuals. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Well, they don’t socialize. I mean, we don’t socialize. That goes back to skill. If we don’t have that as a developed skill or it’s not there is a place that maybe you even have those shared experiences, someone that’s playing a video game where they are focusing on capturing, what would it be? What did, what was the example we heard last week capturing the, in this role the individual was talking about how in the virtual world in this e-game or one of the roles they like to play on whatever game this was is they were kind of the healer if you will, and so they would capture all of the supplies or get all of the supplies and health and then they would bestow these things on to other people. And so there’s that gratitude that you get from helping people in this virtual setting, but then trying to apply that same concept, same endorphin rush that’s going to come into us, the true space has given the fact that you like to hand out artificial things that may be going on way too much of a tangent, but it is whereas you deal with these situations that are so far from someone’s reality and then try to make them somehow work in that reality and that it comes off as awkward, right? Like how you would even conversation with the people that are playing a game is going to be different than how you would talk to people. Maybe this is too much of a tangent that we can edit this right out of the podcast, but it is interesting. Thomas Frey:  It’s not, and it’s not because this is this real-world situation. These are happening all the time, and these are people that are part of society. We’re working with them, and we’re selling things to them. Now the reason an economy works is because we’re all deficient individuals for all terminally human and we need things and we, and because we need things, it gives that’s, that’s the reason why we need each other. So if I need something done, I go to somebody who I know can do it, and other people ask me to do things for them. So we’re providing all these goods and services. So if you have a world that only has two people in it, that’s a world that has a very limited economy with those two people trading back and forth. Now, if you have a world with a hundred people in it, is that 50 times greater than two people? It’s actually much more than that because of all the lines of trade that are involved in it. Now, that’s a really simple example, but theoretically, a world with 9 billion people in it should have a greater economy than the world was 6 billion people in it. So so we, people, are what create the economy. It’s these human needs that drive the economy. And, and so us isolating ourselves from the rest of the world is not good for the overall general economy. Maybe. I’m not an economist, and I’m not. The Future of Communication Jenn DeWall:  Well then, even while you’re talking and maybe you start to think about how technology has impacted our language, we don’t need you to, to write in shorthand or to actually write something out. You will be made fun of by Gen Z or Millennials. If you have a text that is written like a paragraph, you know, that’s, that’s a laughable thing because everything is so condensed. It’s just so much more vernacular, like shorthand and vernacular and acronyms and even what, how is that going to drive the academic landscape, the business landscape as we to see evolutions in our communication, Thomas Frey:  Right. Yeah. So teaching young kids how to write in cursive, do we need to do that? I mean, is that necessary anymore? Jenn DeWall:  They don’t know. I can, and I volunteer at a camp in the summers and they, many schools don’t teach that. So if their parents wrote a letter in cursive or actually us as staff will write letters to the students and there were a few times that this is how we learned it. We wrote them in cursive because that’s how you’re used to writing a letter and the students could not read it. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. I tried writing in cursive a while ago. I, I forgot. Did we learn how to do that? Yeah. Supposedly it was faster, but right now, I can just print things, and that’s good enough, and I don’t have to print a lot, so I don’t have to do it. I can type things out way faster. Although I’m not a great typist either. I’ve just, but all of this is changing because suddenly we’re going to start talking back and forth to our devices. We’re not going to have any written language at all to look at. So how does that change things? It opens up a whole new can of worms, so to speak because it’s going into this unchartered territory. Jenn DeWall:  Does that mean all books are then just read to you as if you’re a child again, or do you actually have to read anymore, or how are you capturing that knowledge? Thomas Frey:  Yeah, it’s, it’s actually a little bit different experience. But you know, the first time I listened to an audiobook, I thought it was cheating. I thought, wow, this is way too easy. And then, and then I thought about it for a while. And this, the process of reading, it’s just this process of looking at the characters on a page and turning them into mental concepts and images. Now, this idea of listening to an audiobook and turning them into mental concepts and images, that’s a little different process. But however, you get the information in your head really shouldn’t matter. And so that’s the important part. People get hung up over this particular process, and now the ideas that get generated along the way that’ll probably vary and differ by individual. But I think it’s more important that we make it easy to get the information into our head. See, the whole trend line is we’re taking this vast information world out there with the internet, and we’re trying to make the interface with our brain as seamless and as invisible as possible. So 20 years ago, if you’d gone into a big library and you had some tough questions to answer, it can take you 10 hours to answer those questions. Going through card catalogs and doing the reference books and all that. Yeah, all of that. And now, today, with a search engine and the keyboard and the screen, you can get those same answers in 10 minutes who have going from 10 hours to 10 minutes. The next interface is the ten-second interface. This idea that somebody could ask you a question and in 10 seconds your mind could think your way to an answer. Now that’s, that’s this neuro link thing that Elon Musk is working on. That might even be faster than 10 seconds. But that’s, that’s the type of thing that’s the type of direction that we’re going. That’s the trendline. Jenn DeWall:  What did we lose? You know, if thinking if we’ve access to this information, it can be put into our brains in such a fast amount of time. Are we losing strategic thinking skills? Are we losing problem-solving skills? What are we losing? Thomas Frey:  That’s, yeah, I guess we’ll have to figure that out. I, there, there are, there are things that we lose. But it’s, it’s I mean we, we lost a lot of things when we went from the stagecoach to the car. Is that something we should have hung on to. I don’t know. Jenn DeWall:  Right, right. Cause you lose it. It just makes me, you know, cause I wonder does it create more excitement than that’s built as you continue to learn more or does it create people that become lazier and maybe aren’t as because they know that they don’t have to try to work for that in the same way that it was once done? Or do they love this access that they have, and they go further? You know what? I think you could probably argue it both ways, just based on, Memorization or Access to Information? Thomas Frey:  Yeah. Well, our old way of thinking is we had to commit so much to memory. If you’re going to be a doctor, you have to learn all the body parts. You have to learn all of the nerve endings she needed to learn every chemical that’s out there and how it affects the body. And you have to have that all stored in your brain somehow. But if you can just think your way to those answers, do we need to have all of that committed to memory? Because that was hard. I mean, that took a lot to get all of that stored in your brain. Jenn DeWall:  So many notecards. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. And, and so that, that was thousands of cans of Red Bull to get that in there. Jenn DeWall:  Right, right. Definitely. So I guess one of the positive things is no more Red Bull. Maybe it’s saving money there and then you’re probably getting better sleep by not having that. It’s so interesting. Thomas Frey:  But will you be as effective as somebody that’s committed to memory? Yeah. And the people that have had to go through all those rigors in the past and becoming a lawyer or a doctor, teacher, whatever. If, if the path is easier for somebody in the future, is it the same, and you, being the old school person, feel short-changed because you had to go through so much. You had to endure so many hardships to get there. Jenn DeWall:  Right. Like maybe it’s not three years to get a law degree. It can be something that you do in six months and Thomas Frey:  Yeah, actually, actually, I think it might be something you can do in a month. I think an entire college degree could be sped up to a point where you could finish a college degree in a month. I think a lot of people, a lot of young people just for the hell of it, are gonna learn a language, some foreign language, one of these disappearing languages. They’ll learn one of these disappearing languages just over a weekend just because they can. I think that’ll be fascinating. It’s really, I think we’ve not, we’ve not figured out really good ways of learning foreign languages, but I think we can do that with AI. I think we can do that in a faster way ever than in the past. We need to learn roughly 2,500 words to communicate in a new language and just learning them, and then we can expand from there. But yeah, one thing, one thing that’s really interesting is that New York City is actually home to lots of of these disappearing languages. There, there are over 800 languages spoken in the New York City area. And a lot of times the people just speak them in their house. Husband and wife speak to each other in that language, that language that only they know how to speak. Yeah. Jenn DeWall:  That’s still alive, Thomas Frey:  Barely alive. There are over 500 languages so that we’ll have fewer than 10 people still speaking the language. Jenn DeWall:  I mean, it’d be interesting to think about how AI could then take that, listen to a conversation, translate what it is, and then actually create a backup library of language to keep it alive. AI can probably do that. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s something I’ve, I’ve actually written about that whole topic that I think we can, we can actually preserve a lot of these dying languages because there’s a lot more of our culture and history in a language than just speaking. There’s, there are different ways of expressing things. There are different ways of thinking about challenges and hardships and all that that we lose with that. So how will this evolve in the future? We’re still waiting to see. Jenn DeWall:  I’ve loved our conversation today. It has been just an awesome conversation. I know we want a lot of different directions with this, Thomas Frey:  I never go off-topic. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, that absolutely didn’t happen. Christian’s staring at us like you guys are totally off-topic the whole time. No, but I think we all have to do that. We have to be a little bit more curious about what’s coming down the horizon, how we can better position ourselves by being more aware and alert to what we need to do to adapt. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. I, I like to say that we every, every entrepreneur needs to keep their peripheral vision intact as they, as they look over the opportunity landscape because there are so many things happening off on one side or the other side that we should pay attention to those because there are things happening there that we can take advantage of that we never imagined in the past. What is Your Leadership Habit for Success? Jenn DeWall:  Tom, we like to wrap up every episode with a final question, and our final question is always, what is your leadership habit for success? Thomas Frey:  Yeah. That’s you. You told me that before we started and that one’s going to stump me. I don’t have any Jenn DeWall:  I think we talked about conceptual thinking. That is absolutely- how do you know, how do you become a great futurist? Thomas Frey:  We have a few different ways of doing things that so as an example one of the things we did at the DaVinci Institute that I run, we started the DaVinci back in 1997 and wanted to start it as a futurist think tank and the idea of what the future is a think tank and how it’s evolved over time. That’s, that’s still an unusual ongoing experiment. But I like to think of this as the, this process of trying to understand. It’s a laboratory for the future human condition. So how, how people are going to change and how our lifestyles evolve in the future. And, and so I kinda look at that as kind of our, our mission statement, if you will, and, and try to understand it from that perspective. So we have a series of mastermind groups that we, we pulled together these intensely bright people, and we dive into these topics real timely topics. And that’s, that’s what I find that to be, well, the best entertainment in town, but it’s also just a fascinating way of unlocking a lot of brainpower on this one particular topic. The last one we did was on quantum computing and this idea of whether, whether or not Google actually achieved quantum supremacy or not, but it’s, it brings, brings up this question of how will, how will our problems get solved once we can apply a million times more computer power to any given problem that we have? And I find that to be such a fascinating question. Jenn DeWall:  What would, I mean, what diseases would be cured? If you have that much more additional capacity, brainpower data, pure data, right. That’s incredible to think about how that can be leveraged. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. Yeah. And Volkswagen just used quantum computers to solve one big issue. And that’s in the driverless world of how to how to create an operating system that gets the right number of cars in the right place in the city at the right time. Jenn DeWall:  That would be, would that mean that I would not necessarily have to stay in traffic then if they could figure that and be like, this person needs to get to work by 8:00 AM we will start her driverless car going this way. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. That they’ll give you the right time and everything, but for the most part, you won’t care because you can be productive doing other things. You won’t care how long it takes for the car to get there. That changes a lot of things. Well, I think, yeah, I think cars are, are going to evolve into lots of different things. I think we have driverless mobile businesses. I think we have driverless mobile offices. I mean, rather than being in this room here, we could be in a mobile unit traveling around town here, seeing all the sites, seeing everything going past us as we’re driving along, and we don’t worry about because that’s the totally safe environment. This thing is just driving. Is that the type of office you’d like to work in it? Jenn DeWall:  I would love to work in an office like that. I would love to be doubly as productive on a commute. I mean, I would say I’m productive on a commute with podcasting, but knowing that you could actually do something with your hands and eyes or being in a mobile place, just the stimulus that comes from changing and sceneries would be amazing for your own brainpower. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. So the businesses today spend a tremendous amount of money, getting customers to come to them. In the future. A driverless mobile business can go to where the customers are. So anytime there’s a softball tournament, there’s a parade on the main street, any gathering of people, driverless mobile businesses will be there and set up, be ready to do business. The mall of the future might very likely be just this giant warehouse that every morning they opened the doors and the whole stream of driverless mobile businesses come in and set up shop, and it’s a different configuration, a different grouping of businesses every day. So it’s a totally different experience every time you go there. Wouldn’t that be fun? Jenn DeWall:  Yes. I mean, it’d be even more fun to think about how they could do, you know, explore more with virtual trying on, but I could save time or just, you know, somehow finding that perfect thing based on understanding your saved preferences that you go into a virtual mall, and they say, by the way, there are 10 things and go to each of these stores, and you will find them waiting for you. Yeah, that would be insane. Know you think about, I think for people that aren’t really familiar with Futurists, maybe you think about the Jetsons, you’re like, well, none of that can happen. We don’t have, you know, a flying spaceship that’s taking us around, but so many more things have come to fruition than what I think anyone ever thought that who can put a finite absolute judgment on what the future holds for us. Thomas Frey:  Yeah. A great question to ask is, but a thousand years from now, what things will be possible and what things will not. Will We Live Longer in the Future? Jenn DeWall:  Will life be possible? Will you be able to use technology to extend the way that you live? Like is immortal life then an option? That’s probably too much of a question. Thomas Frey:  No, we’ve actually dealt, delved into that whole project that whole discussion area because it, we start off with this premise, no person should ever die ever. And then you start going down the list. Well, we, in the future we can probably cure, cure all the diseases in the future. We can probably cure deviant behavior. In the future, if somebody has an accident, we can probably put them back together again and keep them alive. And, and then as we can probably cure aging as part of this. And so then you, you get to the bottom and say, well then no person should ever die ever. Is that our goal? And if not, why not? Is that our goal? It’s so we have the Hippocratic Oath that doctors are taking. Shouldn’t that be our goal, though? That no person should ever die ever. And so it brings up this, this great discussion and is that, is, is that going to be possible? And so I, I find that to be just as fascinating discussion because I talked to a lot of people and I say, well, I don’t want to live forever. Why would I want to live forever? Jenn DeWall:  Because you’re basing your forever on what the past is like when you have no idea how amazing the future could be. Thomas Frey:  I had a friend of mine asked me the question. He says, well, isn’t it true that somebody alive today is actually going to be the first person that’s going to live forever? And I said, well, that’s really a crazy question because, in order to prove that somebody can live forever, somebody would have to live longer than the person that lives forever, so we will never know. Jenn DeWall:  Best of luck trying to figure that out. Thomas, thank you so much for sharing your insight and your expertise, and as listeners, stay tuned, I’m going to give you some directions and how you can connect with Thomas. You can stay current with his work. You can find out more about the DaVinci Institute and just explore all of the topics that we’ve talked about today and many more that Thomas writes about. Thomas, again, thank you so much. Well, thanks for having me here. Thank you for listening to today’s episode of the leadership habit podcast. To find out more about Thomas or book him for an event, head over to futuristspeaker.com, or find the website in our show notes. If you enjoyed today’s podcast, don’t forget to rate and review us on your favorite podcast streaming service and also share it with your friends.   The post Episode 23: The Future of Leadership, Technology and the Workplace with Futurist Thomas Frey appeared first on Crestcom International.

On today’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we’re continuing our “Work Fail” series because we know that we all make mistakes at work. And it’s important not to dwell on that, but to learn from it. So we interviewed Marilyn Sherman, founder of Front Row Leadership, Hall of Fame speaker and author of our personal leadership and development books, including “Is There a Hole in your Bucket List?” Tune in as Marilyn shares her work fails and how she overcame them. Marilyn Sherman, Founder of Front Row Leadership Jenn DeWall:   Hi everyone! It’s Jenn DeWall and on this week’s minisode, “Work Fails”, we are talking to Marilyn Sherman, the founder of Front Row Leadership and hall of fame speaker, also an author of personal development and leadership books. I know based on probably how I just described her, you may not think that she could have e a “work fail”, but what this podcast and what she is here to share with you is that all of us will fail, make mistakes, make errors at some point in time. And it’s not a matter of whether we will do it, but it’s how we respond to it. And so, Marilyn, I am so excited to have you here today to share with you or to share with our listeners maybe some of the work fields that you’ve had, but before we jump into it, can you just tell our listeners a little bit more about you for those that may not be familiar before we jump into talking about our fails? Marilyn Sherman:   Well, I’ve been studying successful people and successful teams and leadership for the last 20 plus years. So I am obsessed with helping people get out of their comfort zone and live and lead their life in the front row. Because life is to be lived in the front row, and you don’t want to get stuck in the balcony or meandering around in general admission. So that’s what I do. Jenn DeWall: You help people move through, I imagine moving through a lot of those mistakes and those work fails so they can get to that front row? Marilyn Sherman:  And that failure is not a finality. Failure is not final. Failure is a learning opportunity. For Sure. Jenn DeWall:  Well, I mean it’s easy for you to say you’re really successful. Marilyn Sherman:  I mean, I thought of three more fails just during the introduction. Seriously. Does Everyone Make Mistakes at Work? Jenn DeWall:  Well, no, and that’s exactly why we have this podcast, right? Because Hey, I’m playing on the assumption of, Oh, we just assume that people, especially if they’ve created a lot of success, they’ve done a lot of really admirable things. We think that you know, we’re just, we become blind to the struggle that other people’s might, other people might have. Marilyn Sherman:  Yeah. And usually, as I’m thinking of all my failures and we certainly don’t have enough time on this minisode to hear all of my failures. A couple that come to my mind to have to do with lack of preparation and lack of willingness to ask clarifying questions upfront. So never ever make assumptions. I was speaking at a conference where they told me there was going to be 12,000 people in the audience and usually when I do back of the room sales anticipate about 10%. So I printed books just for this organization, 10% of that number, which is what, 1200 books. I arrived and they said so your luncheon is going to be in this side room. I said excuse me lunch. Oh yes, you’re speaking to a group of people who had to pay extra to come to a luncheon and you’re the luncheon speaker. I said I thought I was speaking in the general session room. Oh no, no, no, no, you’re going to be speaking to about 500 people now. Now, I had so many books and I was like giving them away to the staff of the hotel cause I did not want to schlep them back home. It was really embarrassing and it was simply because I didn’t do enough clarifying and verifying. And this particular client, there was one person in charge of hiring the speaker, another person in charge of hiring the luncheon speaker and another person in charge of the breakout speakers as opposed to the general session speakers. And I got so caught up with the whole event. I didn’t realize it was the luncheon speaker who hired me and not the general session speaker who hired me. It’s a, it’s a matter, of having consistency with your operations. So if I were consistent, I would have specifically said how many people in the audience of the event I am being hired to speak at. I need to know how many people will be there that day. And typically are your people book buyers? Like are they, are they ready to buy books from the speakers who are on stage or did you want to pre-purchase a book for everybody in the audience? I mean those are the questions you would have every single time. And because I didn’t have those clarifying questions, I made an assumption. And as you know, assumption is the lowest form of knowledge. So do not assume anything, especially when it comes to decisions about printing, for example. Jenn DeWall:  I’ve never heard that expression before. Assumption is the lowest form of knowledge. Marilyn Sherman:  That’s a good one. Yeah. That’s a writer downer. Write that one down. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Assumption is the lowest form of knowledge. I think that that’s, that is going into a mistake just all around, that’s probably the common one that many of our listeners, including myself, absolutely have hands down all the time. Marilyn Sherman:  That’s why I like to talk about clarify &verify because it really takes a little bit more time up front to clarify expectations and verify that you understand what the expectations are before you make cost-saving decisions or cost-creating decisions. Right? The other mistakes I’ve made at work had to do with lack of preparation and sometimes lack of preparation comes from a place of cockiness, which is different than confidence. Confidence is, you know, your stuff. Cockiness is, you think you know it all. So you tell everybody how much, you know, like confident people don’t need to advertise, they just, they just know it. So I was, I came from the seminar world where I was used to being hired to do six-hour seminars in five cities a week up to three weeks a month. So I came from that background. Then a particular client hired me for a 90-minute keynote presentation and I got really cocky and thought, you know what, I got this. It’s so easy to go from three hours to 90 minutes. So, I did not prepare for that 90 minutes as much as I needed to. So when it came time to actually deliver the speech, it was for a government group and they were very high-end government officials in that room. And as I’m delivering my 90-minute speech, I realized what I had prepared for was over at the 45-minute Mark. And when you fail on a big stage in front of a big group of people, you learn your lesson real quick. How did that feel? It felt horrible. I was sweating like you’ve never seen a speaker sweat before. Luckily I had enough in my toolkit of activities that I had them do an activity and then debrief the activity, which filled up the rest of the 45 minutes. But if I were the meeting planner, I would have sat down with that speaker and said, excuse me, what was that? So my lack of preparation and my cockiness made me live one of people’s biggest fears on stage is what if you don’t know what to say next. So now that, and that was like 15 years ago. So now I make sure I over-prepare I know exactly which direction I need to go and I have the material for the topic I’m hired for in case they need me to cut it short or in case they need me to go longer. I mean sometimes it’s usually that you need to cut it short because another person spoke and you’re behind on the agenda and there’s a certain you know, time that you need to be done. So I’ve learned to know when to cut it short, but I also have to have in my tool kit to make sure I deliver what I promised I was going to deliver Jenn DeWall:  You, you’ve written a few different books and you know, we talked a little bit about you being the founder of Front Row Leadership. What do you think are some of the mistakes that- or the work fails people are making, preventing them from being front row leaders? The Biggest Mistake is Being Afraid to Speak Up at Work Marilyn Sherman:  I think the biggest mistake is they feed into their own fear, whether it’s fear of success or fear of failure. You know, a lot of people have a fear of failure, fear of judgment, pure fear of what people will say and the fear of making mistakes. And actually you, you shouldn’t have a fear of failure. You should actually embrace failure. I know a company that their culture is so amazing and energetic and engaged by all the employees because their culture is one of, we don’t fear failure. We celebrate failure. So imagine a culture of people who no longer have fear to speak up in a meeting, no longer have fear to throw their idea up and no have no fear to, to volunteer to try something out. Why? Because if anybody makes a mistake, they highlight that mistake and they cheer that person for making that mistake. Do you see that? How, how upside-down that is. For most other cultures in the U.S. Jenn DeWall:   There’d be companies that are like, are you kidding me? There’s so much money that just went out the door. Marilyn Sherman:  Exactly. But here’s what companies that have that kind of culture where people are ridiculed for making mistake it, it keeps people in their fear. They don’t want to be ridiculed. They don’t want to be put on the spot. They don’t want to be made fun of. They don’t want to lose their job. They don’t want to be demoted. They don’t want to even be called out in a meeting. So what do they do? They keep those ideas to themselves, even though the idea is a better idea, a cost-saving idea, a life-saving idea. They don’t want to speak up because of fear of failure. But if they embrace failure and celebrate failure, guess what? You’ll get those cost-saving ideas. You’ll get those life-saving ideas. And when I say lifesaving ideas, if you’ve ever studied plane crashes, the plane crashes. I think the majority of the plane crashes that happen that are operator error, a copilot knew what to do, but because they were with a senior pilot, they didn’t feel comfortable or confident to speak up. It’s a fascinating study, so if that happens in life or death situations, imagine what happens in hospitals. Imagine what happens in acute care facilities where people have a fear of speaking up when this could be literally life or death, so overcome your fears. That’s the number one thing that I think keeps leaders from being front row leaders. Jenn DeWall:  We’re going to wrap up our minisode. What would be the last piece of wisdom you would want to bestow on someone that’s really feeling like they failed and they can’t, they can’t turn it around or they’re just feeling really struggling to turn it around? Marilyn Sherman:  Well, a lot of times your failure is really in your own head, so be super grateful for that. You’ve come this far. Be super grateful that you have an opportunity that turned that ship around. Be very grateful for the people around you that can support you. Just have the courage to ask for that help. And I guarantee you, if you ask enough people, you’re going to get the answers you need to keep going. Jenn DeWall:  Marilyn, this is such great insight. Thank you so much for sharing with us. Your work fails. Our mission with this minisode series is to try and help people embrace their failures so they can learn and be better leaders. So thank you so much for sharing that with our listeners. Marilyn Sherman:  My pleasure. Thanks, Jenn. Thank you for listening to today’s minisode work fails. If you want to find out more about Marilyn Sherman, head on over to front row leadership.com or find the website in our show notes. You like today’s work fails episode. Don’t forget to rate and review us on your favorite podcast streaming service. The post Minisode 6: Work Fails with Founder of Front Row Leadership, Marilyn Sherman appeared first on Crestcom International.

In this episode, our host, Jenn DeWall speaks with Dr. Tyrone Holmes, a professional speaker, consultant, and author. Dr. Holmes teaches about diversity and inclusion and how to connect with others to reduce unconscious bias. Full Transcript Below Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It is Jenn DeWall, and I am so excited to interview Dr. Tyrone Holmes. Tyrone, thank you so much for joining us today on The Leadership Habit. We are so happy to have you. Tyrone Holmes: It is my great pleasure. Thank you for having me. What is “Diversity and Inclusion”? Jenn DeWall: So today we’re going to, we’re going to talk about the topic of diversity and inclusion, right? This is something that I think we see more and more in the news. We know that it’s an area of importance, but for those people that may not be familiar with diversity and inclusion, they may be outside of our space of where we live and play. How do you describe what diversity and inclusion is, Tyrone? Tyrone Holmes: That’s a great question. And if you ask different quote-unquote diversity experts, they might give you some different answers. But I want to focus on one that’s grounded in our ability to connect with each other as human beings. And when I think of diversity, I think of it in a broad way. I think of the ways that we can be different, and we can be different in a lot of ways. We can be different based on a position we hold in an organization. We can be different based on our hierarchy in that organization. We could be different based on our race. We can be different based on our gender. We can be different based on our age. We can be different based on our socioeconomic status. We can be different based on our physical appearance or physical characteristics. We can be different based on physical abilities or disabilities. And when I think about diversity, I think about creating opportunities for people with those differences to come together in ways that will allow the individual and the organization to be successful and allow people to be effective in what it is that they’re doing. Whatever it may be, it may be that they’re doing in their jobs. And so I didn’t think of diversity inclusion as steps that we take that create opportunities for people who are both culturally similar as well as those who are culturally different. To connect with one another, to build powerful relationships, to build powerful connections, to engage each other in ways that will be of benefit to both the people as well as the organization, and to do anything we can to create the situation and circumstances that will allow that to happen. Jenn DeWall: That’s, I love the purpose of diversity inclusion to connect and to unite people. And to have them come together to be able to maybe seek to understand, seek to learn, seek to connect, and just see each other despite our differences. Why does diversity and inclusion matter for an organization? Why does it matter to have diversity? I know that that sounds like probably a silly question. It seems obvious, but why does it matter? Diversity is a Competitive Advantage Tyrone Holmes: The first thing I would say Is that diversity isn’t necessarily a goal, but it’s there already. In most organizations, particularly if you think about diversity in a broad way. Looking at some of the dimensions that I mentioned a moment ago, the reality is is that we have diverse organizations. We have organizations that have different genders and have people of different sexual orientations that have people of different races and ethnicities and religions and political affiliations and things of that nature. And we’re already diverse. The potential problem is we don’t always engage each other as effectively as possible. We don’t always connect as effectively as possible. We don’t always interact as effectively as possible. And diversity and inclusion become important for at least one reason. That reason being that we need to create the opportunities that people, or we need to create opportunities for people to engage each other and to interact with each other and to connect with each other and to operate effectively in teams and workgroups in ways that allow them to be successful and live in ways that allow them to do their work efficiently, to do it effectively, to allow teams to work together efficiently and effectively. And when we do that, when we facilitate the circumstances that allow that diversity that is always already inherent in our organization to come together effectively, the organization is going to function more effectively, and it’s going to gonna operate with a higher level of efficiency and productivity. And so there are a number of reasons that, that we can talk about in terms of why diversity and inclusion and why do we, what I have a focus on it. But I really like to emphasize because we’re already diverse and because we need to make sure we utilize that diversity in ways that are going to be a benefit and that we get a competitive advantage out of that diversity that we already have. That’s inherent to our organizations. Jenn DeWall: Competitive advantage. Tyrone Holmes: Yes. Jenn DeWall: And there’s also– I’ve heard people talk about it, you know, not only the competitive advantage of diversity and having different experiences in different individuals come together and the benefits you can see in terms of innovation, idea generation and, but sometimes, you know, some of the things that I’ve been reading is that diversity and inclusion when we work for an organization that we feel really accepts us for who we are, values us for who we are. There are tremendous benefits to how we feel in terms of our own psychological safety and just feeling like we’re in a place where people understand they’re sensitive to the differences that we have, and they appreciate respect and allow us to be who we are. And so, you know, there’s that beautiful benefit to the bottom line, but then there’s this also amazing benefit to that individual. And then I think people may forget that if you may not necessarily feel that you’re diverse or you may feel that you are diverse, it’s that sometimes we just aren’t bridging the gap to talk about the things that impact each of us. And we need to start those conversations. We need to have that openness in the workforce. Am I going too soft with diversity and inclusion? Connecting Through Our Differences Tyrone Holmes: No. No, not at all. And you’re absolutely right, and I’m going to give you an example. One of the things that I emphasize when I do the work that I do- be it facilitating a workshop or just having a conversation with people as I emphasize the fact that in any given situation, we have far more in common than we have that are different. And I actually have an activity that I do in some of my workshops called 90-second introductions, and I’ll tell real quickly how it works. What I do is I break the group in half, and I have half the people stand on one side of the room. The other half stand on the other side of the room. And what I tell them to do is I say find an individual that either you don’t know at all or you don’t know very well and pair up with that person when everybody’s in a pair, I asked him a question. I say, for the next 90 seconds, what I want you to do is I want you to talk about the things that you have in common. Talk about your similarities. I give 90 seconds to do that. Then when they’re finished, I say, okay, for the next 90 seconds, I want you to talk about your differences, talk about the things that are different. Tyrone Holmes: And when they’re done that I have everybody sit back down and I ask them a single question, and that is what did you learn? And the number one response that I’ve gotten from people over the years doing this, and I’ve done it dozens of times, is that we had far more in common than I realized I would have ever realized ours. So we have more similarities and differences. It was harder to identify and talk about the differences because we had a lot more in common. And it’s along that theme. And what I’ve learned over that time and I think he has become somewhat evident is that the reality, whether we realize it or not, is that we always have more in common than we have. That is different in that a big part of what we ought to do and try to be doing in our organizations and communities is using those similarities to build a bridge across the differences and using those similarities for us to build a connection and to make a connection. And once we make that connection, once we create opportunities for people to interact with those they don’t normally interact with, once we create opportunities for people to learn more about those they don’t normally have a chance to learn about. Once they make that connection, once they maybe get out of their comfort zone a little bit and start interacting with individuals that they haven’t had a chance to interact with, they come to the realization of this person’s a lot like me. We have a lot in common, and we can interact and engage with each other and be very, very successful together. And so that’s a big part. That’s a big thing when it comes to this whole conversation about diversity, and collusion is that yes, we have differences. There are things that make us different, and those things can be extremely valuable because those differences can be utilized in ways that allow us to be more successful in terms of the work we’re trying to accomplish. But we have so many things that we have in common that we can use to build that bridge and connect with one another and to create environments like you were saying, where people feel secure and where people feel good about themselves and good about the work they’re doing and people feel good about their opportunity to engage in, engage their coworkers and engage the leadership and engage other individuals in the organization to get their work done. And so that’s a big part. Creating opportunities for people to do that is really what diversity inclusion is all about. What Holds Us Back From Diversity and Inclusion? Jenn DeWall: And if you want to be a successful organization, that should be a primary focus is to offer that foundation or that platform for people to connect. You want them to collaborate; you want them to understand how each other, you know, works, operates so then they can work better together. Absolutely. What do you think holds people back, or what challenges come up for organizations in creating a diverse and inclusive culture? Tyrone Holmes: Actually, great question and the question about holding people back. I’m going to go right back to that 92nd introductions activity before we do that activity. What holds people back is so many people think of our differences as being greater than our similarities and so many people think of themselves in terms of maybe not having as much in common with a person who might be culturally different than they really do have in common, but they don’t realize it. They haven’t had that opportunity to connect. They haven’t had that opportunity to interact, and that’s why I say that one of the things that can be a great benefit in any organization or any community is to provide people with opportunities to interact with those they don’t normally have a chance to interact with and learn more about those they don’t normally have a chance to learn about. And the failure to do that. The lack of doing that is what often holds us back. Now to be a little bit more specific, what we’re talking about is this thing called affinity bias, and affinity bias by definition is a natural human tendency to gravitate toward those we perceive to be most like ourselves and therefore away from those we perceive to be less like ourselves and because we do that- and human beings do that all the time- because of that, it sometimes limits our interaction because if we see person A, B, and C as people who are similar to ourselves, we’re going to try to hang out with and interact with persons A, B, and C and maybe person’s D and E We think of as maybe not being so much similar to ourselves, so we’re probably not going to take outward steps to connect with them. At least some people may not take out what steps to connect with them, but the reality is if that person took those outward steps to connect with persons are people D and E, guess what happens? They realize they have more in common. They realize that there are more similarities than differences, and they can utilize those similarities to begin to build those bridges. And so coming back to this whole notion of diversity and inclusion, diversity and inclusion by way of an example should be us doing a better job of helping that person who is comfortable connecting with people A, B and C to connect with those people D and A. And when we create those connections, when we create those opportunities to build relationships, all of a sudden people are interacting with each other much more effectively. Jenn DeWall: They’re likely happier, more productive people. Tyrone Holmes: Absolutely. Jenn DeWall: And you know, you have this broadened perspective. It’s, it’s amazing what we can actually learn from each other. So for those that may not understand what affinity bias is, could it even be something like for my undergrad, I went to the University of Wisconsin Madison and so I’m a huge Badger fan. Could it even just be me trying to seek out fellow Badger fans that much, the same university and just say like, Hey, those people are the most like me. And so I know we’re going to get along great! How Does Affinity Bias Harm Us? Tyrone Holmes: Absolutely. That’s a good example of affinity bias, and I want to make this point cause I think it’s important. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with trying to create a safe space yourself. There’s nothing wrong with trying to connect with people you see as being similar to yourself, but now let’s take it back to the organization, and the question I ask people when I facilitate workshops on this topic is what happens when that affinity bias manifests itself in the workplace? What happens, for example, when it manifests itself in the recruitment process, what happens when it manifests itself in the interviewing process? What happens when it manifests itself in the selection process? What happens when it manifests itself with the person who decides who gets promoted? The reality is that they will often fall back on that affinity bias, and they’ll often focus on recruiting and interviewing and then ultimately selecting people who are, they’re comfortable with, who they perceive as being relatively similar as, as opposed to people who are significantly different. Going back a minute to the example, I gave you a person’s A, B, and C being someone you feel you can connect with, and then D and D maybe not being so easily connected with. In those cases, when we’re talking about recruitment, we’re talking about interview interviewing, we’re talking about the selection. You might be more likely to hire persons A, B and C than you would person’s D and E because of the affinity bias. So there is fundamentally nothing wrong with people seeking comfort-seeking a safe space seeking that similarity and familiarity, which is really what’s manifest and affinity by in affinity bias, the problem becomes how does that manifest itself in the workplace when it comes to getting the work done in making decision makings for example, around employment. Jenn DeWall: Okay. That’s, I mean, I love that example. I used to work with an organization, and we are a very large organization, but the feedback that I would always get from my friends and my husband when they would see us out, or you know, see my coworkers and myself is they’ll be like, you all look the same. You look exactly the same. I can pinpoint who works at your organization and who doesn’t, and that’s likely a strong example of affinity bias. And I never realized that until I got that feedback of how much alike it was to the point that I could then see people, you know, I could understand if we saw interns coming in, I would be able to not even know them. Not even having an impact on whether they get picked, but I could probably guess who would get hired just based on everything that I noticed. Jenn DeWall: And when you take that step back and really look at that, you’re forced to ask yourself, how strong are your decisions if everyone is essentially in some way operating out of a similar brain. How innovative are you if you’re doing that? I think in the beginning, yeah, it’s like a safe space. We all connect; we share a lot of the same similarities. But when we really think about driving business and we think about the processes that we’re putting into place, how we’re managing our organizational culture, well, there’s a huge detriment for us to all be the same. Tyrone Holmes: Absolutely. And I think you used a good example. I’ll give you a slightly different way of looking at it. Think about when affinity bias manifests itself in the recruitment selection process or even the recruitment process. Think about the large candidate pool of potential individuals who can come into your organization that is ultimately not even considered because they’re not part of that group of individuals that you necessarily feel comfortable with and a lot of organizations have processes that they utilize to bring people into the organization or at least be considered to come into the organization that can be somewhat exclusive because of that. That can be limiting in terms of who you’re going to consider for positions within the organization, and part of diversity and inclusion is simply asking the question, can we expand our candidate pools? A Diverse Workforce is Good for the Bottom-Line Tyrone Holmes: Can we expand that group of individuals that you’re considering that you think might be a good fit or think might make a significant contribution to the organization? And the answer is almost always yes we can. There are other things that we could be doing to take a look at individuals who are going to be highly qualified and might bring some different perspectives and some different experiences and some different backgrounds that might make the problem-solving process operate more effectively. It might make decisions that flow from that problem-solving process ultimately be more effective decisions. And so that’s yet another example of how diversity and inclusion can be very, very effective at making organizations more effective ultimately and basically get some better bottom-line results. Jenn DeWall: What do leaders do to, you know, be able to broaden their perspective in the interviewing and recruiting process? I know that’s not what we necessarily plan on talking about today, but you know what? What can you do if you’re a leader, and you’re now having this aha moment in your car like, “Hey, maybe I do suffer from affinity bias,” which is normal. Like you said, it’s something that many of us have. It’s a natural thing to have, but we have to be aware of it because it can impact the quality of our decisions, the quality of our problem-solving. What can you do as a leader to broaden your own ability to see candidates, to see people, and to truly like create a more diverse team through your interviewing and recruitment process? Tyrone Holmes: There are a variety of things you can do. We probably won’t have time to go into all the different aspects of diversity recruiting, and one of the things that I have done with a number of clients is talk about how do we go about recruiting and retaining a high-quality culture, diverse workforce. But here’s the first step, and I always emphasize this as the first step, and I challenge organizations to answer this question. That is- if you see yourself as being relatively mono-cultural as we were discussing where everybody looks alike, and you’re basically from a fairly narrow range of individuals, bringing people into the organization, then ask yourself this question, and that is why would people outside of that mono-cultural group, why would they want to work for this organization? Why might they be interested in this organization? Or perhaps you reframe the question, though, would they be interested in working for this organization? Tyrone Holmes: And I think that’s the first step because one of the things that I think we have to understand when it comes to any type of recruitment and particularly diversity recruitment and trying to recruit and retain a high quality culturally diverse workforce, it starts with us. It starts with what do we have to offer? Do we have something of great value to offer to a high-quality, culturally diverse candidate pool? And so that’s the first step. The second step is to start taking a look at what you are doing to bring people into the organization now. So, for instance, some organizations use employee referral programs, and what they’re doing is they’re actually rewarding employees who are already working for the organization for bringing in a successful candidate. And that’s fine, but that’s also how an affinity bias will significantly manifest itself. So are there some other things that you can do? Are you going to colleges to recruit? Are there some more diverse colleges that you can go to recruit at? For example, historically black colleges and universities or colleges and universities that have high Latino populations and things of that nature are often possibilities in terms of doing college recruiting. When you take a look at utilizing online resources, are we utilizing online resources that cater to a diverse array of individuals that I’m talking about. Again, diversity, in a broad way, could be diversity based on gender. It can be raised based on race or ethnicity. It can be based on age; it can be based on particular skillsets. That’s another thing to consider. Another big one that a lot of organizations find success is taking a look at professional associations that cater to specific cultural groups. So, for example, I’m just picking this right off the top of my head. A particular professional association that might cater to women leaders in sales. Maybe that’s what they focus on as women in leadership who are sales focused. If you need to hire salespeople for your organization and you want to increase the gender diversity in your organization, that might be a professional association you want to build some interaction with and start identifying individuals from that professional association that might be a good fit for your organization. So those are, those are just a few, but really it requires, if we can kind of summarize this element, two things that I always encourage people to think about. One, start by looking within, are we an organization that will really cater effectively and create environments that will serve effectively a diverse array of people? And if not, then the first step in the process might be to identify what do we need to do differently? And then the second step is what do we need to do differently in terms of how we’re reaching out and connecting with different candidate pools? Are there ways of actually making sure we connect with more diverse candidate pools that have the people that have the qualifications and have the experience that we’re looking for? And the answer is almost always yes; you can do that. Making Diversity a Competitive Advantage Jenn DeWall: I love that you gave our listeners just a lot of things to consider and a lot of great tips on how they can start to think about this differently. Thank you so much for sharing that. I know that I went on a little bit of a tangent, but you know you have to go where the wind takes you, but I do want to talk about your book, which is Making Diversity a Competitive Advantage. And if you could for our listeners, just tell us a little bit about what your book is about, and I know that we’re going to go through and talk about some of the ways that we can improve communication. And this is communication, I believe, and how you wrote it within our organizations, within our friendships, within the new people that we meet. But how can we truly work together, change our communication styles so we can truly make diversity a competitive advantage? So what was your inspiration for that book? Tyrone Holmes: Actually, I love the question because it really gets at why I do this work, and I’ll take a step back just in terms of why I do this work. And that is, and I’m not telling you or any of your listeners what they don’t already know, but we live in a society where we do not always get along very effectively across our cultural differences. We have a lot of issues when it comes to interpersonal interaction, interpersonal communication. We have issues in instances of workplace incivility. Quite a few of them that can include things like bullying that can include things like insults and things such as nasty emails and tweets and all that kind of stuff. We live in a society where we can and should be getting along much more effectively with one another. Now, the reality is that we’re not always going to agree, and that’s okay. Tyrone Holmes: We’re not always going to get along in terms of I want to hang out with you, and you want to hang out with me. That’s perfectly okay too, but we should be able to do that without being mean to one another. We should be able to do that without being hurtful to one another. We should be able to do that without being destructive to one another. Yeah. We live in a society that increasingly that’s exactly what we’re doing. And we’re increasingly looking at people who are not in agreement with us, who are not part of our group or part of our tribe, quote-unquote, as being the enemy and as being someone that should be destroyed or someone that has to be torn down or someone that has to be cast aside so to speak. And my work for a while and for the rest of my life is going to be what can we do to start tamping that down to start helping people realize that it’s perfectly okay if we don’t get along. Tyrone Holmes: It’s perfectly okay if we don’t agree when we can do so in ways that are not disagreeable. We can do so in ways that can be perhaps enlightening to one another. And so maybe we never agree, but at least he better understand where each other are coming from. And we can just agree to disagree and still connect when we have to within the workplace or within the community. And in a peaceful and charitable manner. And I don’t always see that. I mean, we see it sometimes. It’s not like everybody’s at each throat all the time. But the reality is that we see negative outcomes and displays of behavior far more than I think we should. And so that was my long-winded way of saying that I wrote this book as just one step in the process of helping people develop the skills, develop the knowledge, develop the understanding, developing the self-awareness necessary to connect across cultural differences more effectively, to communicate more effectively, to build more powerful relationships, to build more effective connections, to reduce conflict or at least reduce the likelihood of conflict. And even if a conflict occurs and there’s going to always be conflict. Jenn DeWall: Always conflict. That’s one thing that’s for certain. Tyrone Holmes: It’s got to be, it’s going to happen, but maybe we can deal with it a little bit more effectively. And so that was the purpose of the book is to give people a relatively short, easy to read, highly informational piece of information or tool is probably a better word. That’s going to help them identify a tip, a tidbit, a resource that they can utilize to connect more effectively, to communicate more effectively, to listen more effectively, to articulate their messages more effectively, and to ultimately connect with people who are both culturally similar as well as those who are culturally different in ways that will allow them to be as effective as they possibly can be. Being a Better Listener to Improve Workplace Culture Jenn DeWall: I love that. So right now what we’re going to do is walk through a little bit of some of those tips that you offer people and to those that are listening, and to the leaders that are listening, this is your opportunity to, you know, reach out and give that proverbial handshake and say, Hey, I may not know you, or we may not always have the same idea, the same thought pattern, but you know what? We can still work together. We can still respect each other. We can still have peace. What we’re going to talk about are some ways that we can overcome our differences to be more collaborative, to connect better, and to like foster also that respect that everyone deserves regardless of our differences. I’m excited to talk about some of these tips. So one of the tips in the book you talk about, which is you know, a foundational leadership skill, but it’s essential if you want to operate and create a more diverse and inclusive workspace and have a better conversation. And that was to acknowledge your weakness as a listener. Tell us what that means. Tyrone Holmes: The reality is that we, as human beings do not always listen as well as we should or as well as we ultimately can. And virtually all of us, at one point or another, is not an effective listener. Now I see myself as a multicultural communication expert, a person who is very knowledgeable in how we can listen, articulate our messages, and connect with people who are both culturally similar as well as those who are culturally different, more effectively. But the fact of the matter is that there are times, and my wife will attest to this, that I’m not the best listener. Jenn DeWall: So like why are you telling people to listen when you don’t? Tyrone Holmes: So it’s not like I’m trying to say I’m a great listener, and you all need to become better listeners. I’m saying we all need to become better listeners and there’s a number of reasons for that. I’ll give you a real simple reason why we don’t always listen as well. One, and I know everyone can relate to this, is that we live in a society that is now so fast-paced and now the expectation is that we move with that really, really high pace and we are inundated with so much information, and we’re always being asked to do something and do it better, do it faster and do it longer, so to speak. That actually makes it; it puts a stress on us too – if we’re listening to somebody and we’re engaged in a conversation to get it over as quickly as possible so we can get back to the work that we need to do. And so that’s one reason why we don’t listen as well as we can. Another that’s kind of related is just the mechanics of listening. And the reality is that we can listen to words far more quickly than people can articulate those words. And so we might be sitting there and listening in what’s in the back of our mind. We think it is go faster, go faster, go faster. Okay, I need to know what this is because I got something else I need to do. And so that gets in the way of listening. And there are a variety of reasons why we don’t most, another one I think people will be able to relate to is that most of us when we’re listening to somebody, we don’t necessarily focus on what they’re saying and focus on gaining an understanding of the words that are coming out of their mouth. We focus on what we’re going to say as soon as they shut up. And so where we are doing that, we’re not going to listen as well either. And so one of the things that I make or points that I make in the book is, is, to be honest with ourselves about our listening and to also be honest about when we can listen and when we can not. And I try to emphasize to people that it’s okay to say to someone, I want to give you my full attention, but I know I can’t do it right now. Let’s connect later on today when I have taken care of this issue I’ve got to take care of, and we could spend a little bit more time talking about what it is that you need to talk about. And I think that’s a very honest, very genuine way of actually improving your ability to listen, by recognizing that in order to listen, the most important thing for you to do is to be in the here and now is actually a term usually utilized in counseling and in communication called immediacy and immediacy is about the notion that you are in the here and the now with the person that you’re engaging at that moment you’re with them. You’re listening, you’re paying attention, you’re locked in, and what they have to say, well, we can’t always be at a place to do that. And it’s okay to say to somebody, and I can’t do that right now. I’ve got to do something else. Or I’ve got like one minute. It sounds like you need more than one minute. So let’s table this for a time when I can actually provide some time to listen and truly try to understand where you’re coming from. And so that, that’s the point of that- is that to be honest about our listening and to be okay with the idea that you can’t always listen to somebody and hear what they have to say because there are other things going on. And the honest and genuine thing is to simply say to them that, let’s talk about this at another time and I’ll be able to give you my full attention. Don’t Pretend to Listen Jenn DeWall: I don’t get caught up in the fast pace of work. Recognize that if it does require a longer amount of time, just say so. People will be understanding, I would much rather have someone say, “Hey Jenn, like I know you really need to talk, but I think this will take longer than the time that I have, or I’m very immersed in what I’m doing. Can we talk about this at X time?” I would much rather have that than someone just talking to me but also staring at their computer monitor, like you know, typing away or picking up their phone and then like shaking their head, “uh-huh, uh-huh” you feel like you’re talking to a wall. I would much rather have someone just say, I can’t do it right now. It doesn’t make you a bad person. It makes you an honest person because you’re still moving that time to a better time that will work for you to be present or to practice immediacy. Absolutely, I feel like I’m learning words. So another tip that you offer is to be aware of the cultural influences of eye contact. How Culture Influence Unconscious Bias Tyrone Holmes: Yes. I’m going to tell you a very quick story. And I tell the story when I facilitate a number of the workshops that I do because it’s a very important not to misinterpret a lack of eye contact or someone giving you good consistent eye contact because there’s a strong cultural influence on that. And the story I want to use is that it goes back to when I was at human resource manager for company and we had an Administration Manager that I worked with, great guy and I enjoyed working with them, and we had a position that we had to hire as Administration Supervisor, and I remember when we got together to do a little brainstorming in terms of that position and recruiting for that position and the interviewing process and things of that nature. I’ll never forget one of the things that he said to me when we, during that meeting and we were talking about doing the one on one interviews and doing some group interviews and what we wanted to look at in terms of criteria and how we were going to evaluate that criteria and all those kinds of good things. I’ll never forget. One of the things he said to me is he said that my first thing whenever somebody comes in for an interview is I greet them. I say hello, I stick my hand out. I expect them to stick their hand out and shake my hand, and they better give me a firm handshake while they’re looking me directly in the eye. They don’t do that. I’m not going to hire them. And he and I had had a conversation about the cultural elements of what he said relative to a handshake and relative to direct eye context. So, for example, in the United States, particularly as it relates to our business culture, it’s very common to have the expectation of fairly consistent eye contact. Now that can still manifest itself in different ways with different people. You might look at someone while you’re talking to them, you might look away while you’re talking to them and then look at them while they’re talking to you. You can handle it in different ways, but that’s still fairly consistent eye contact. But in some other cultures and some other societies, that kind of eye contact would be very, very much, well I’ll say this one would be less likely. So, for example, some traditional Asian societies and in some traditional Latino societies, it would be uncommon to see somebody make that kind of direct eye contact. And one of the reasons is because individuals and not all, and it’s important to say doesn’t apply to everybody, and it applies to some individuals perhaps, but, but not all individuals. But some individuals in those societies might take making direct eye contact, particularly with the person who was seen as being a leader in the organization as being disrespectful. And so they wouldn’t make direct eye contact simply because they think that would be disrespectful. And by looking away, they’re trying to be respectful toward them. And so it’s important to understand that there are cultural influences when it comes to eye contact. And then in other elements of nonverbal communication as you interact with people. But eye contact is a particularly important one, and I’m always reminded of that. And I always think about that, that example of with our administration, a manager in his whole notion of you better make eye contact with me and give me a firm handshake, or you’re not a good employee or not a good potential employee. And it’s like, that’s probably not the case. Diversity and a Firm Handshake Jenn DeWall: Well, and it’s something that I think we’re taught I, a few years back, I remember listening to a speaker and she was giving advice to people like career advice, right? About how to impress people, essentially how to build your personal brand. And some of the feedback that she gave to everyone is make sure that you’re giving eye contact and also that you must have a firm handshake. And if someone gives you a lamp or just a last strong handshake, then it’s, it’s telling you something about them, which isn’t true, right? This is just a conditioned response. It’s also a cultural norm of one sector of a culture to what one person says. But we have to be mindful that other people do not have those same guidelines. And it doesn’t make our guideline any more true than anyone else’s. Tyrone Holmes: That’s true. But let me say this, there are two sides of the coin and on the one side, the side that I was talking about before, if you’re making decisions about people you should not take into consideration how strong their handshake is. You should not take into consideration their level of eye contact. That’s probably going to be somewhat problematic in terms of how relevant that is in determining whether they can do the job or not. But there’s another side of the coin, and the other side of the coin is if I was actually giving someone career advice and talking to them about how they engage or how they behave in their mannerisms during an interview, I’d probably say the same thing. Give a firm handshake and maintain a lot of eye contact. The reason I would say that is because I know there are people who expect that. And so if I’m giving you and we’re on the other side of the coin now, if I’m talking to you about how you can most likely increase the chances you get hired for that job, I would probably say to do those things, even though I know it’s invalid, to utilize those as criteria in the decision-making process. Does that make sense? Jenn DeWall: Yeah, absolutely. Tyrone Holmes: And so you have to think about it from both perspectives. And so I can see where I think the advice, the individual you’re referring to, the advice that person gave is valid advice. That’s a good idea to think about that because you’re going to go into a circumstance where you may run into people, and I’d like to think there are a few people then that think that way now than maybe they were 20 or 30 years ago. But you may run into a circumstance where people still have that kind of mindset of, wow, this person didn’t make eye contact. That says a lot about them. They weren’t looking directly in the eye. That says a lot about them. It says that they’re shifty or that they can’t be trusted. And I know there are still people who think that way because I’ve listened to people in training programs or workshops that I’ve facilitated who have said things like that. So I know that that mindset in the 2017, 2018, 2019 timeframe. So I know that kind of mindset still exists, but the reality is is that there’s not a good, there’s no evidence that there is good predictive validity in someone’s handshake or the extent to which they make eye contact when they first come into the interview room. And so you’re not going to be able to determine whether that person is going to be a good employee based on that. Jenn DeWall: So you’re telling me that if I master my handshake, you’re not going to be able to predict that I’ll be a CEO one day? Tyrone Holmes: No, probably not a good indicator. Jenn DeWall: Oh gosh. There are probably so many reasons why I could never have the job of a CEO, but I’ve got the eye contact, eye contact. Tyrone Holmes: Again, think about the different sides of the coin. I do a fair amount of work with individuals who are professional speakers in terms of helping them become more effective on the stage on the platform. And one of the things that I do emphasize that if you are speaking if you’re a teacher if you are a leader at a meeting if you are facilitating a workshop if you’re doing a speech, whatever it might be, that you do make consistent eye contact with your audience members, that is a very good idea. And if you’ve ever been at a workshop with me, especially if it’s maybe 50 or 60 people and not a huge session, not two or 300 people are a little bit more, more difficult. But if it’s a relatively small session, you’ll notice that I am looking at everybody in the eye. I try to, especially again if it’s 50 people or less, I try to look everybody in the eye during the course of that session because that’s a very good way to say to the audience you care about them, that you care about them getting something of value from your presentation and that you are a person that has an expertise that can be of value to them. It also helps increase your likability, and so again, I’m not saying you’re necessarily going to have a better message if you make consistent eye contact. You can make consistent eye contact and really be bad. I mean, you can look at everybody and people like this person, right? Jenn DeWall: Right! But eye contact. Tyrone Holmes: Or conversely, you can not make very good eye contact and have a tremendously powerful and effective message. Understanding that if you’re going to be a speaker if you’re going to be a, or not just a professional speaker, but if you’re a leader facilitating a meeting for ten people, you should be making eye contact with people because it’s going to, it’s going to help you be more effective in delivering your message. Diversity and Communication Jenn DeWall: Love that. Hey, so we know like, I like the, you know, just the feedback that it’s a cultural norm and it’s something that’s not necessarily meant to be like thrown away. There is still a complete value in doing it, but don’t put all your stock in it. Just like you can’t tell him, I’m going to be a CEO from my handshake. Another tip that you talk about is to recognize words, phrases, and behaviors that can have different meanings in different cultures. Yes. Why is that important, and what’s an example of a word that might have different meanings? Tyrone Holmes: You know what, let me think for a second. I’ve got to come up with something. Let me give an example, and I wish I had looked this up before we, we came into this, cause I don’t remember this exactly, but I do know that this is in the United States and I have the V I’m putting two fingers up at the V. It’s like thinking that V of victory this is seen as being the peace sign and there are other countries, this is seen as being the peace sign. There are also countries in which this is seen as putting up the middle finger. It has the same meaning as doing that. And so that’s an example of that. Now I think this is more important for people who probably travel abroad where you can see some dramatic differences in which particular gestures and what particular words mean. And I’m struggling to come up with a specific example in terms of word meaning. Jenn DeWall: No, but I think that even just the hand gesture is a great example and not necessarily a word, but it is a great example because if you grow up in one culture, you might use it and be happy and jolly. And you see that as a peace offering if you will, but in that culture, they may interpret that as the complete opposite of peace. Tyrone Holmes: And so that’s why that’s important. If you find yourself in a circumstance where you’re going to be interacting with people who are, have some significant cultural differences, particularly national differences, or if you find yourself working in a different country or just traveling in a different country, there might be words, there may be phrases, there may be gestures that have a completely different meaning in one culture to the next. And so if you’re going to find yourself in that position, it’s important to be understanding of how what we do here may not be how it’s done in different locations. Communicate as Equals Jenn DeWall: Now, another tip that you have is to always speak to others as equals. Why does that matter in terms of improving communication? Especially maybe if you’re feeling like you are the boss, you are the manager, and this is your person that reports to you. Why the heck should you communicate to them as equals Tyrone Holmes: You can communicate better if you communicate with people as equals than you could if you communicate to them as if you are implicitly or explicitly saying you’re higher than them or better than them, or you’re not my equal, and I’m above you, that alone creates noise in the interaction and we haven’t talked about this concept of noise and let me take a quick step back. I said earlier, I’m a professional speaker, I’m a professional speaker, I’m a coach, I’m a consultant and I’m often asked what I speak on and what I do as a coach and a consultant, and I sometimes say partly tongue in cheek but seriously, too that I help people deal with the noise in their lives and noise by definition is anything that interferes with the accurate transmission of a message between a sender and a receiver. So you and I are having a conversation, and there are some things you want to say to me, and you want to make sure I understand. There are some things I want to say to you, and I want to make sure you understand and noises. Anything that interferes with that. There are four types of noise, internal, external, emotional, and cultural. Now let me bring this back to your question in terms of creating a more egalitarian interaction. When you’re communicating with someone, one of the types of noise that can manifest itself when you’re dealing with inequality in terms of the interaction, maybe one person’s higher than the other person in terms of that interaction is emotional noise. It can increase anxiety, it can increase stress, and those are, those are examples of emotional noise that interfere with our ability to connect with one another. If you can create the circumstances that will indicate the people that you’re on the same level that you’re trying to have a conversation as equals, you will reduce that emotional noise, and you will, because of that, engage that person to communicate with them more effectively. Now, here’s the thing that can certainly happen intentionally, and sometimes there are circumstances in which people want to say, I’m in charge, and you’re not. In fact, I’ve heard people say I’m in charge and you’re not, but there are some times that that happens unintentionally and I’m gonna give you an example. I was a college professor for four years, for two years at Eastern Michigan, Eastern Michigan University, and then for four years at Wayne State University in Detroit, and I learned something very early on while I was at Eastern Michigan University and I experienced it a little bit my first really first few weeks at Wayne State University as well. And this is what I experienced when I, as a new person, needed to call around to find out how something is done or find out what I needed to do to get from point A to point B. I’d call an office, and one of the things I learned very quickly is when I said, hello, this is Dr. Holmes. I got one level of treatment. On the other hand, if I said, hello, this is Tyrone Holmes, I got a different level of treatment. It wasn’t a bad level of treatment, but I wasn’t catered to as much as what I said. I’m Dr. Holmes. I would bet anything that the people in the other end of the line did not realize they were doing that did not realize that they were being more inviting. They were being more open. They were being more, for lack of a better word, professional. They weren’t unprofessional when I said I’m Tyrone homes, but they were really more inviting and more helpful when I said this is Dr. Holmes. Jenn DeWall: More attentive to you. Tyrone Holmes: Exactly. And it was a very interesting thing to learn. First of all, I learned to always call somebody and say, this is Dr. Holmes. I stopped saying this is Tyrone Holmes pretty quickly, but I use this as an example because, and again, I bet you this happened unintentionally on their part. I am betting that this was unconscious on their part. Is that their minds? It wasn’t even a mindset. What happened unconsciously is that when they heard Dr. Holmes, they realize, well, this is a serious, or a professor or a Dean or an Associate Dean or somebody like that. So I need to give them one level of service. And unconsciously when they hear Tyrone Holmes, they heard, Oh, this might be a student. So okay, let me just take care of this and then get on to the next thing I needed to do. And I don’t think anybody ever did that intentionally. I genuinely don’t believe that, but I think they did it unintentionally. So again, that was my long-winded way of saying, if we try to enter circumstances where we have a conscious focus on treating people as equals in a conscious focus on creating a more egalitarian interaction, I think we will engage people more effectively. We’ll reduce noise and, we’ll be able to connect more effectively and really get people to want to connect with us more. Jenn DeWall: Great. Well, and no one wants to feel like they’re being talked down to or not treated as equals because it’s, you know, it’s funny because I think the sender, depending on how sophisticated is, sometimes they may talk whether this is intentional or not, they may sometimes think that they conceal it really well, but I think the receiver can always process any type of disparity and that relationship, I think it’s obvious. We can tell when someone respects us. Just as when you said Dr. Tyrone Holmes and not that they were disrespectful, but you can tell just based on the level of treatment, how they process that. And the decision they make and you know, we, we see, we notice it and so remember that just as much as you as an individual experience that the people that you’re talking to notice it, too. Sometimes Communication is About Where You Sit Tyrone Holmes: Absolutely. I’ll give you a really quick example, and I do this in some of the leadership training I do or say this is some of the leadership training I do. You can basically, just by the way you set up your interaction with someone, say to them that this is going to be an equal egalitarian interaction or do something a little bit different and say to them that I’m in charge – you will listen. And it’s going to be more of a one way, I’m the boss, you’re the employee type interaction, and this is what I say to people. It all comes down to where do you sit at your desk. If you want to create a more egalitarian circumstance situation, get out from behind your desk with two chairs and sit across from the person with nothing in between that says the person that we’re going to have a conversation as equals and we’re going to have some good dialogue, some good two-way communication about whatever the issue is. If you sit behind your desk that says to the person, I’m in charge; you’re not, this is going to be one more one-way communication. Even if that’s not your intention, that’s how it’s going to be interpreted consciously and or unconsciously by the individual that you’re interacting with, and it’s going to not minimize, but it’s going to reduce the potential quality of that interaction just by where you sit behind your desk versus in front of your desk with nothing between you and the person you’re interacting with. The Town Hall Meeting Jenn DeWall: Oh, those are great things to be mindful of. I love that. Just the simple things that we can do to acknowledge that so we can ensure that the communication between ourselves and others, goes the best way that it can. So will we only have time to talk about a few more tips, but there are a few more that I wanted to ask you about. One, in particular, was to hold town hall meetings. How in the heck is that going to improve our communication? Tyrone Holmes: Actually, that’s a very good way to do that. Now typically for those who don’t know, a town hall meeting did in an organization usually is getting members of the organization together to talk about some issue that’s relevant probably to diversity and inclusion. And it could be any number of different topics that you might have. If there is a concern as it relates to something related to diversity inclusion, perhaps you have a conversation about that. If there has been an incident in the organization, a conflict that people know about and have been dancing around, maybe use a town hall meeting to address that. But there’s a number of different things that you can do. But to more directly answer your question, the power of a town hall meeting is where it gives people a chance to come and talk about concerns they may have or talk about solutions to those concerns. And the key to what I just said is the solutions part. Because town hall meetings can be problematic. They can not work. They could fail. Jenn DeWall: Oh, I’m sure. Tyrone Holmes: It could fail when they just become times for people to come together to complain about stuff. And I’m not saying that shouldn’t happen. There should be opportunities for people to articulate their concerns that they have without necessarily having to come up with a solution right then. But I have found that the best town hall meetings basically pose a problem. This is a problem we have. Let’s talk about that problem, but we want you to bring some potential solutions, and let’s do some brainstorming around that. That can really have a twofold positive effect. The obvious positive effect is you do some brainstorming, perhaps identify some potential solutions to whatever that problem might be, but the second is, you usually get a diverse people to come together to have some conversation around it. And it goes back to one of the very first things I said at the beginning of this podcast, and that is, we want to create opportunities for people to engage those they don’t normally have a chance to engage and learn more. Those they don’t have normally have a chance to learn about, and that can be a form in which that can happen. People can interact with those they don’t normally have a chance to interact with. They can have conversations with people that they perhaps never met before that particular day, or maybe they’ve seen but never had a chance to really interact with. And so that can really help the process of beginning to bring those barriers down, both barriers, a difference, and allowing us to utilize some of our similarities such as maybe a similarity around, we have a concern about this problem, let’s use that to have some good dialogue and build a bridge across our differences. And so town hall meetings can be a very effective way of doing that. Jenn DeWall: I’ve heard of some companies, some actually large Fortune 100 organizations that are now starting to actually have town hall meetings that discuss current events. It could be about race relations. It could be about X, Y, and Z. But they’re talking about the real-life events that are impacting their employees, and they’re generating that conversation to give them a voice to acknowledge that, Hey, even though their work, it doesn’t mean their mind is completely there if something happens. We have to acknowledge that there are sensitive things that occur. And just because they happen outside of the workforce doesn’t mean they don’t come in with that with an individual. And I just love the idea of these large corporations saying, you know what? We’re going to talk about this. We’re not going to pretend that that stuff doesn’t walk into our organization. We’re not going to pretend that those differences don’t exist. We’re going to talk about those differences so we can create awareness around them. I think it’s powerful Tyrone Holmes: And you just said something very important, and I think a lot of organizations fail to recognize this, is that people don’t leave their baggage outside the door when they come to work. They bring it in with them and the problems that they encounter in the world, they bring with them into the workplace. It’s important for companies to acknowledge that it’s important for companies to recognize that if you have a current event or whatever it might be, that can significantly impact a portion of your workforce, they’re going to be significantly impacted outside of the workplace, and they’re going to be significantly impacted inside the workplace. Perhaps to the extent that you need to address that. And I think a lot of organizations drop the ball and, and basically have this expectation, leave your baggage on the, on the steps of the steps of the office and you can pick it up on your way out and go to work, and human beings don’t work that way, Designing a More Diverse and Inclusive Culture Jenn DeWall: Right we are, you know, we’re too sophisticated. Our brain is too dynamic to expect that people can compartmentalize truly and live in a vacuum. I just feel like there’s, it’s not going to happen. I mean, we are not designed that way. We are, our brains are too complex. We have, I think I heard today listening to a podcast. We have over 50,000, you know, thoughts on any given day. So to think that all 50,000 of those will revolve around work when we’re at work is, you know, it’s unrealistic, and it’s, I mean, how we feel. I love that you and I are having this conversation on diversity and I hope that our leaders that are listening to this podcast really found opportunities that you shared with them of how they can truly design a more diverse and inclusive culture and how they can start improving their communication tips and how they transform their conversations with others. What is Your Leadership Habit For Success? Jenn DeWall: I know that we didn’t get to talk about all of your tips, and I so wanted to talk about more, but our conversation was way too great to be able to do that. But for those of you listening, Tyrone offers over 70 tips to improve your communication to make diversity a competitive advantage. The title of his book is Making Diversity a Competitive Advantage. It’s something that we all need to recognize. We all need to start generating those conversations, and talking to each other, getting to know more about each other because we are so much stronger together than we are apart. Absolutely. So, and then so the last question that we have to ask every one of our interviewers, and it’s because we are named The Leadership Habit, so we’d like to ask everyone, what is your leadership habit for success? You’re a professor or former professor, and you are an academic, you’re a speaker, you’re a coach, you’re a consultant. How the heck do you keep up with it all? What’s your leadership habit for success? Tyrone Holmes: Actually, I have to say, and we haven’t talked about this at all, which is fine, but I am also an avid cyclist. Jenn DeWall: Oh! Tyrone Holmes: I am a level one USA cycling coach, which is the expert level, the highest level you can attain. I am a certified personal trainer with the American Council of Exercise. I am a level two TrainingPeaks certified coach, and while the coaching that the athletic coaching is not the primary thing that I do, what we’ve been talking about is the primary thing that I do. I am an avid cyclist and exercise enthusiast, and now I’m going to answer your question. I think in order for leaders to self-actualize, to be as good as they can be, they have to practice passionate self-care, and my self-care manifests itself as cycling and exercising four to five days a week and making that a priority. I schedule everything else around my rides around my strength training sessions around things of that nature. That comes first. Everything else comes second. And the reason I do that is because this may surprise you. I used to weigh about 60 pounds more than I weigh right now. I’ve spent my entire life yo-yo-ing, gaining weight, losing weight. I literally have lost 40 pounds in a year and gained it back the next year. And it wasn’t until 2005 when I lost weight and finally kept it off. And that’s when I started cycling and started racing competitively. And I don’t race as I did before. I don’t do that as much in terms of cycling, but I still ride extensively. So I would say my leadership tip in terms of what leaders should be doing is take care of yourself. You can’t take care of others; you can’t take care of business if you don’t take care of yourself. Jenn DeWall: I love it. Passionate self-care. Yes! Tyrone, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation. Tyrone Holmes: Thank you. I enjoyed it, as well. We hope you enjoyed this episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast. If you would like more information about Dr. Tyrone Holmes or want to buy a copy of his book, Making Diversity a Competitive Advantage, you can go to his website: www.drtyroneholmes.com . If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate us on your favorite podcast streaming service. The post Episode 22: Diversity and Inclusion with Dr. Tyrone Holmes appeared first on Crestcom International.

In this minisode of The Leadership Habit, we turn the tables on our fearless host, Jenn DeWall and let our Video Specialist, Christian Wearly interview her about her career missteps and work fails. Listen in as they discuss lessons Jenn learned the hard way early in her career! Jenn DeWall:                      Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and on today’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I am going to share with you my work fails. This is a different role for me as normally I’m the one that’s interviewing the lovely people that we have on our show, all of these experts, all of the contributors. And so this is definitely a different space for me to be in. But for those of you that don’t know, I work for Crestcom as the Leadership Development Strategist. And I’m also a coach and speaker, and I’ll be sharing some of my “work fails” that I’ve made during this portion of my career, but also in past parts of my career. So, and today I am lucky enough to be interviewed by Christian Wearly. Okay, well, Christian, I guess here it goes! Christian Wearly:              Yeah, welcome to the hot seat. This is how probably everybody else feels, Jenn DeWall:                      It’s uncomfortable to be here. Christian Wearly:              So you’ve asked everybody about their work fails and kind of how it shaped them in their career. What would be your- what is one of your work fails that really changed your perspective and how you’ve gone forward in your career? Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah, I think, you know, I’ve definitely had a couple, but I would say that my work fails, the ones that come to mind are the ones that ultimately led me to pursue coaching and leadership development and speaking. Because if you had asked me right after college, I thought that my career was going to be living and breathing in retail. I had worked in a buying office of a large retailer, and you know, you’re talking about like corporate America. I was totally bought into wanting to climb the corporate ladder. I wanted to do it, you know, as fast as I possibly could. There was no time of like, Hey, let me just figure out what I could learn because I was just maybe an overly ambitious 20-something, Christian Wearly:              Which I think everybody is. Jenn DeWall:                      Yes, right? I was like, I need to get promoted. I needed to get promoted, and I need to get promoted. And I think that eagerness, that just kind of like thinking that I didn’t need to pay my dues or I didn’t need to understand that bigger picture really kind of was something that then I would say was the start of an uphill battle, move forward with and my buying career. So I was a little bit more, I would say entitled, definitely entitled thinking that I, I, you know, I had a little bit of an inflated sense of ego thinking that I should get it. And rightfully so. Like at that point in time in the career, like I had had two successful promotions, and so I would say that stroked my ego in the same way that like, you know, you had shared in your work fails. So I was feeling pretty good, and I remember going into my third promotion again, so excited. Jenn DeWall:                      It was such a great opportunity. I had gone through all these interviews, and I went into this, and I remember the individual that interviewed me- and they asked me before going into it to pay special attention to this interview to make sure that I truly thought that the person that was interviewing me would be a good fit for me as a boss. So to try and say that in a different way. I was being interviewed by who was going to be my boss, but their boss was telling me to make sure that it was a good fit. Christian Wearly:              Gotcha. So here’s a red flag. Should be aware that this person you’re interviewing with… Jenn DeWall:                      The person’s boss is already saying like proceed with caution, but I didn’t, you know, I was too excited. I wanted to get to that next promotion. I knew that this was going to give just more visibility in terms of the brand that I was buying, and I wanted that. I wanted all of the fame that came. Christian Wearly:              Sometimes you look past, you know, the pitfalls and you just look at your end goal of I want to be there. Jenn DeWall:                      Yes, yes, that’s exactly it. And so fast forward, I interviewed, of course, I report back to this person and say, no, no – I think that we’re going to do just fine. And a few weeks later, a month later, whatever that was, then they extended the offer to me, and I started my next, my third position with that organization. So really excited again, feeling really good because I was attached to this big brand and early, early on, right when I started, I basically had zero support. I like to equate it to this boss was like, hey, I want you to do this, but I’m not going to give you an insight on how I want that done, even though you’ve had no exposure to it in the past. Christian Wearly:              Oh, nice. Jenn DeWall:                      And so my initial, first I would say like a few months on the job, I was working extremely long hours. I was working every single weekend I would be going into the office, and I was just so frustrated and just fatigued. And so I go into this VP’s office, and I just tell him like, I don’t know what to do. Like, I can’t handle this. I basically have a breakdown in front of him. And that moment why that’s so important- is that moment where I had the breakdown saying that I couldn’t do this, that I was actually really frustrated with this boss, that they weren’t a good fit, yielded a response from this VP, kind of like, well, you’re the one that asked for it. And because I came up and showed like my emotional side and was so frustrated, then that VP also made different assumptions about how I manage my business. Jenn DeWall:                      So the perception that I created in the early formative part of the relationship that I have with that VP started out on the wrong foot, and it started out so far away from the right foot that it actually just killed my career the second that I started. So that third promotion was essentially the death sentence of my career in retail. But I wanted to keep doing it. Keep doing it. And why that piece matters is that I think that the first lesson that I learned in the “work fail” is understanding how to articulate your emotions in a way where you can be heard, but also in a way where it doesn’t overshadow, or it’s not going to lead to them seeing the wrong things. Because sometimes, when we’re not in control of our emotions, that’s what can happen. And that wasn’t the perception that I would ever have wanted to create it with that VP. Christian Wearly:              Right. Jenn DeWall:                      Especially if I had known that he would basically never promote me again. Christian Wearly:              Here comes crying Jenn again, oh my gosh. Jenn DeWall:                      Right. He will never do that. And it’s, you know, and you go forward. And I went through that career, and I still had that same, just high ambitious attitude, like I wanted to get going and I knew that I was doing a good job in my role and so I kept doing these things, but I had already essentially damaged that relationship. I couldn’t do anything right and in that sense, because it was already done, nail in the coffin, like that exchange right there of showing that that’s all that he needed to know. It didn’t matter what else I showed him, and I went, and I went in, and I ended up doing really, really well in that role. I, you know, I felt like we did a great job of managing our sales. Then I went into managing a different brand, and we did a great job, and I was all still under that same VP. And so fast forward after I made a switch, then I got a little bit more, I would say like I really, I knew that I wasn’t going to get promoted right away, but I started to see my peers getting promoted and so I’m like, I need to be part of that. Like I don’t want to be the one that’s left behind. Like I need to constantly be moving. And so then I go to my boss, and I’m like, going into this one on one meeting. And I think that this is the perfect time to essentially ask him about when I’m going to move on to the next level. And so, you know, I’m saying to him like, okay, like I’m really ready to like move up to be a planner now. Like this is going to be great. And he just kind of looked at me like Jenn, that’s not going to happen. I’m like, what do you mean? Like my business is really good. I’ve obviously done this for sales. Like how could you possibly not promote me? I’ve got all of this data to show just how great I was. Not a lot of humility. And he shared feedback that wasn’t ideal. He, you know, I guess the perception that I had created within, you know, the department that I had worked in – I laugh a lot by nature. And so one of the pieces that I got out of that conversation was that if I wanted to get promoted, I really needed to start walking around the office with back up straight, no laughing outside of our cubicle. Jenn DeWall:                      And you know, there’s other feedback within that same conversation that said, you know, Jenn, like we really just need you to focus on being more of a yes-man or we need you to be more vanilla. And why that piece was again, another turning point is I heard that feedback and I again had a very poor emotional response. I became very, very defensive. Whereas in all honesty, like I know that my boss at the time was genuinely just trying to help me. He obviously didn’t craft his language, I would say in the best way, but he had a really good heart about it. He was genuinely just trying to figure out, okay I know that it’s important to you to move up, but you need to fix some things before we can see you in that light. And what I grabbed onto is he said that I need to be more of a yes-man and vanilla, and those are all things that I can’t change, so I guess I’m stuck. Jenn DeWall:                      So I just developed an attitude. I developed, you know, frustration. I became a little bit more of an angry employee, and I think I rebelled. Like I became really frustrated and resistant to making the changes. And then, I also personalized it initially. Like I was really frustrated with my boss at the time and just like did not like the VP, I didn’t like the boss because I knew the VP was still at going into here. And so fast forward, I guess to like those mistakes, like the mistake first being too open the mistake, second to being… I would say not receptive to feedback that was really meant to help me. Like so, not assuming positive intent both caused more fray, which eventually just led to me never being promoted. And at that point in time, I had to stay in my position because the company had already invested in me because I was, you know, I was on the fast track before this happened. Jenn DeWall:                      Like all of my past leaders, they had believed in me, and the company had just accepted me into their master’s program. And so it was the complete opposite of the fact. It was kind of like all these people were really supportive, and then I had all these people that were like, you are not good enough, or you’re not this, or you’re not that. And I’m really grateful for those mistakes. And I think that’s what ultimately made me go to coaching is because I was basically stuck in that position for four years until I could graduate. They would reimburse the college, and I could leave. Otherwise, I just didn’t have the funds to be able to pay for that out-of-pocket just because I was upset with the job. So in hindsight, these, these mistakes that I made, you know what I would say to anyone that’s sitting there is that if you’ve done something that’s maybe you feel is jeopardized, your ability to move forward or get promoted know that it’s totally okay to like change organizations. Jenn DeWall:                      But if you do want to stay within your organization, you do have to take ownership of how you show up. You have to completely take responsibility that even though, for example, in that feedback session where the word choice wasn’t that actionable like I don’t know how to be more of a yes-man. Like that doesn’t mean that doesn’t translate into something that I can, how I can be better in my natural words. I’m like, well, that just sounds like I, I won’t challenge things so that I won’t be an effective problem-solver decision-maker. But learning how to manage your feedback and learning how to it before it comes out of your mouth. And what I mean by that is- filter, ask yourself, is this feedback designed to help me? And if it is like how can I process it in a way that’s helpful versus a way that’s hurtful? Christian Wearly:              Right. Jenn DeWall:                      And if I say that the feedback’s not helping me. Then giving myself permission to let it go. But also it doesn’t mean that by not agreeing with the feedback that I have to be disrespectful to the person that’s giving it. So I think taking the ownership for what you can do, how you can improve and not being so emotional or so just kind of expecting people to like roll at your feet to figure it out. Because that’s just not the case. That’s not how any organization is designed. They’re designed to be able to keep moving forward. So my work fails, again, it was probably being too ambitious and not really allowing myself to learn from all the levels. And also the work fail of the red flags were all there. All of this could have been avoided. I could’ve still been probably like moving in a career of retail had I not just been so ambitious about getting this visible job that everyone in the company could see or like in the buying world could see when it obviously came with some huge red flags. Like I should have just been like, hey, my time will come. Like I can be patient. I don’t need to take this now. Like trust that this is the warning that you need, that you can handle it a few more months just to not see how this warning is actually going play out. Christian Wearly:              And sometimes I think that’s hard, you know, is you’re early in your career, and you’re so focused on moving up, you’re not thinking of why should I move up? You know, are you asking it? I want to move up, but should I? Jenn DeWall:                      I know, and why do I want to move up? I think I still think that even the position that I wanted, because that would’ve been the next position is not even a position I would’ve wanted to do, but it would’ve still meant a promotion. And in the eyes of corporate America, corporate America, and how I saw it, I always felt like I was failing if I wasn’t being promoted. And so when my peers started to get promoted because they would put you into these classes when you’re going to go to the next level and then you would kind of be trained on that next position. So as my peers started to go through these interviews and started to get accepted into that process and then you know that they’re part of the prep group or like this, you know, it’s kind of that, that elite group, I guess that all of the competitive type a people in corporate America are looking at and want o to be at because that was me. I wish I would have just been like, and it’s okay that I actually don’t want that, and that understand why I wanted it. Like I wanted it because I was in some way wanting to show people I was good enough that I was there, but I didn’t want it for any other reasons to actually want to do the job. Jenn DeWall:                      I just wanted it to show people that I was just as good as that I’m just as good as you. And so really I think, you know, as I’m talking about all of these work fields for my first career after college, I’m just thinking, so many of my missteps in my career were all made by having too much of a little bit of an inflated ego or higher sense of self. And that’s hard for me to say today because I, you know, I look at it today, I’m like, who does that? And I’m like embarrassed I did that. Christian Wearly:              That was me! Jenn DeWall:                      That was totally me, and I just have to own it. That was who I was. But also understand that that way of looking at my career actually it was just not helpful, and it ended up causing a lot more crying, a lot more stress, all of that. And all that I really needed at the end of the day was to just know how to love myself and validate myself and know my value. And I think if that would be the thing that I would say to anyone is, you know, stop comparing, stop letting your ego drive your career and just start focusing on what really matters to you, not what matters, what you think matters to someone else about your life. Right. Christian Wearly:              Because most of the time you know it, they’re not paying attention to your career path. Jenn DeWall:                      No. And they’re not the ones that have to work it. I’m the one that needs to go in day in and day out. Like I would’ve hated that job that I wanted to be promoted to. So they had to like, this is something that for a good two year period, I was just incensed. I was frustrated. I was sad. I was for all of these things, all for a job that I didn’t want. But because I couldn’t have it, I wanted it more. And I didn’t give myself to say like, it’s okay that you don’t want that. Drop the rope, like don’t pursue it anymore. And I think people still do that in their careers. Sometimes they stick with something even though they have all of the red flags. But they are like, you know, especially if it comes down to the competition that I had set up, like showing that I was good enough to, I could get promoted. This race is against yourself. I was making up these fictitious competitions all to like tell myself that I was good enough. Like you have to be the one that says I produce value. I like these things. I can honor all these things about myself, and I can also do the same for the next person. Like we should not be the same. Christian Wearly:              So Jenn, do you have any other work fails that you might be willing to share with us? Jenn DeWall:                      Oh my gosh, I have one that I just, I really want to share because that’s one that it was so blind, it was so innocent. I love to laugh. I love to joke around, and I love to socialize with you that you’re my peer, and I love to connect with people. And I was doing a role in HR for an organization. And one thing to know when you’re in HR is it’s a pretty, I would say, visible position. Meaning people know who HR is for the right reasons or wrong reasons or all the reasons, but they know when HR is in the room and they- Christian Wearly:              Yeah- hold the jokes, Jenn DeWall:                      Right- can’t do anything here, and they kind of perk up when HR is around. And not necessarily because they’re interested in me, but it’s kind of like, okay, what are they going to say? What are they going to say yes to your best behavior? Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah. And I was just walking around as I would like. I would kind of walk the floor, go around, and just talk to the different departments. And I was on the it side of our business and I was talking to all the people that were there. And there were a few people that I had developed rapport with. And so we were just joking. And it happened to be around the time that we were starting to talk about bonuses, but in the context of this conversation, like this employee that I was talking to, like we just always had more of like a joking, playful, like just having fun at work, relationship, a lot of sarcasm. Nothing that would be, that was ever, I mean it was just, it was just a fun, like, you know, a fun coworker to work with. And in this one specific day that I did not think anything of until after that day. Jenn DeWall:                      I didn’t know how to think there’s anything memorable. I was just having a conversation, and the is like, Oh Jenn, are we gonna? Are we gonna get just like huge raises this year? And so they’ve, they phrased it to me in the way of a sarcastic question. Like they were like, of course, we’re not going to get like, we know all the reasons that we’re not going to do this. Like because of this performance or we know what this is going to be. But person says, Jenn, are we going to get just like huge raises? And so he’s saying it to me in a sarcastic way. And so then I respond. I’m like, yes, everyone’s just going to get huge raises. I again responded, and I started passing away fast forward. So, you know, conversation reps, whatever, joking around onto my day, not thinking anything of it. Two days later I get a call from our COO. The first, it was the CIO that came into my office and was like, were you telling people that everyone was going to get a big raise this year? Christian Wearly:              Oh no. Jenn DeWall:                      I was like, what? Like, no, why would I ever tell people that? Like, no, that’s absolute, I’m not even their boss. Like I don’t determine that. And then he’s like, well, one of the directors, this is actually a director at that organization, heard me say it and then reported it to the chief, um, our chief technology or chief information officer and said that I was going around and telling people that there are these huge races and whether or not that was my intent, because clearly in the context of the conversation, it was just like sarcastic banter, but someone else from outside heard it out of context, made assumptions and then deduce the fact that I was walking around telling people that we all going to get huge raises. Jenn DeWall:                      I was mortified. I was just so embarrassed because then I also followed up with a conversation not only with that executive-level member but also with our COO. And I just never realized that the weight of a simple joke and how that could have been perceived and how it blew up to what it was. Christian Wearly:              Right. Jenn DeWall:                      It’s still something that like, I just wish I could go back and change that because there was just something so innocent and I didn’t think anything of it. But sometimes you know, the higher up that you go in your career or the more visible you are as an individual, understanding that the weight of your words will change the perception that people have of you. And then in addition to those words will have an impact. Um, the higher up that you go, the more that those words matters. You have to be really sensitive to the fact that are sensitive to what you’re saying and how you’re saying it because other people are listening and whether, and they’re not necessarily wanting to take time to fact check to understand they’re just going to fly by the seat of their pants and here’s what they want to hear, hear what they heard and move forward. Jenn DeWall:                      And that was just a huge mistake for me because I felt like it was something that was just so much of just like, you know what I would consider like an innocent joke but it really did cost and it damaged the trust or the relationship that I had had with these two executive board members. And that was something that was really hard for me to like process because I would in no way want to put them in a bad position where they, you know, where they were, the bad guy or that I would start a rumor though thought we were going to get gigantic raises. But yeah, just understanding that sometimes like what you say, depending on your level, is going to be appropriate, not appropriate, taken out of context and like you have to understand that people are watching and so what do you want to be remembered for? Christian Wearly:              I was given really good advice years and years ago by the colorist at the post house I worked for, and he said be careful. I had said something kind of offhand about what I was doing at the time. You know the client I was working with, I forget the what I had said, but he said be careful what you say. You never know who’s listening. And it’s like you’re right, is fun not willing to tell that person that then be careful what you say because the walls do listen even though you’re not paying attention. Jenn DeWall:                      Yes. Why didn’t I have that person in my life before I made this work fail? I wish I had had that sage advice because I think I would have, you know, and it’s funny cause I think I was pretty sensitive to a lot of different things like sensitive in terms of how you’re communicating. Like disciplinary action or how you’re talking about sensitive issues. I think that in so many ways I would say I was actually very aware of what I was saying but in this context because I thought it was just such a joking conversational like off-the-cuff, not even, you know, I didn’t even think that that held true in such a just casual conversation where clearly if you were actually a part of it, you would have realized like there was nothing. Right. Christian Wearly:              Meanwhile two cubes down, Charlie and Doug think they’re getting huge raises. Jenn DeWall:                      Jenn’s telling everyone, oh my goodness and now they have to abandon their Teslas and I am just the one to blame. Christian Wearly:              Just crushed their dreams. Jenn DeWall:                      It’s so, yeah, I love that. Like I think that what you just shared, that know that people are listening, the walls are listening. I mean people, people hear you whether you think that they’re paying attention or not. Like people are, Christian Wearly:              I mean it’s natural. I mean when you’re working with clients or you know, whoever you’re always, you know, as a group you kind of want to, I don’t want to say rag on them, but sometimes you know you need the, you know, gang up mentality of you know, Oh they’re so hard to work with. Or when someone down the cube might be on a phone call with that person and they hear you in the background. Jenn DeWall:                      Oh my gosh, all of those things I’m surprised at like, you know, mine happened the way that it did just cause I feel like there are so many other areas that I was unaware but just be aware. That day sucked that day was just awful. I just go back to that. I, you know, I guess this is par for the course. I was definitely shut my office door. It was like crying cause I was so disappointed with myself because I hated that I let down our COO and I was just embarrassed. I was so embarrassed because I would never think that is such an obvious thing to me. Like, of course, I would not walk around telling people we’re raises.That’s, you know, that’s the way the cookie crumbles some, and I had to own it. I had to own that I didn’t realize that there would be a secondary message that could have been deduced. And taken from that. Christian Wearly:              Yeah. So own your mistakes on your mistakes. Well, Jenn, thank you for switching roles. Jenn DeWall:                      I’m glad to be here. Yeah. Like I guess maybe that’s not how you mentioned switching roles, but I love my position here, but it was also fun to switch roles and be on the other side of it. Thank you for me for coming here from behind the production side to interview me. This was fun, Christian! Christian Wearly:              Once in a lifetime. Jenn DeWall:                      Thank you for listening to today’s episode of the leadership habit featuring my interview sharing my work fails that I’ve made. I hope that you learn something or in any event, maybe you’ve got some laughs over the fails that I made. If you liked our episode or you feel like you have a friend that maybe could benefit from this, don’t forget to share it on your favorite social media platform or to write us a review.     The post Minisode 5: Work Fails with Leadership Development Strategist Jenn DeWall appeared first on Crestcom International.

On today’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, Jenn speaks with ethics expert Amanda Jo Erven, who goes by Jo. Amanda is the president and founder of Audit. Consulting. Education. LLC. During today’s episode, we discuss her newest book, Our Choices on the Road to Life. This episode is a favorite because the importance of showing up as ethical leaders is a topic not often discussed. Read the Full Transcript Below: Ethics and Our Choices on the Road of Life Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and I am so excited to welcome Amanda Jo Erven to The Leadership Habit Podcast. Jo and I will be talking about ethics and leadership, and we’re also going to be discussing her newest book, Our Choices on the Road of Life. Jo, thank you so much for being with us today. Amanda Jo Erven: Thank you, Jenn. I’m so excited to be here. Jenn DeWall: Jo, for those of our listeners that may not be aware of you, can you just go ahead and tell us what you do? Amanda Jo Erven: Absolutely. So let me tell you how I actually start every ethics presentation that I give. Jenn DeWall: I hope it’s engaging. People are pretty scared of that. Amanda Jo Erven: That’s right. The topic, they’re already turned off, so you’ve got to turn them on real quick. And here’s how I do it. I don’t do it. I talked about myself, but I don’t do it in the typical speaker way. I actually go way back in time, and I tell the audience about myself when I was two years old, three years old, even show a picture of my kindergarten graduation. Jenn DeWall: Oh! Amanda Jo Erven: I know. Right? And so you ask why I’m sure you’re thinking why? Because this is really where ethics started for me. It started at a super young age. So you see, I was this child that always liked to point out when other people were doing something wrong. Jenn DeWall: Yeah, I would have been on your bad list. The Short Whistleblower Amanda Jo Erven: You know, the ones that lie or cheat or maybe even steal, hopefully not. You know, from tattling on my older siblings to telling the teacher when someone’s eyes weren’t on their own paper. That was me. I was the tattletale. But now I like it when people say I was just a really short whistleblower, that’s kind of my tagline. So that’s how I start. That’s how I start my presentation. Jenn DeWall: So perfect. The short whistleblower. Amanda Jo Erven: Yes, the short whistleblower, so now you can see why I became an ethics instructor. Right? Jenn DeWall: Absolutely. And we need ethics. We know from even, you know if you turn on and watch the news or go to your computer and read the news, there are tons of cases where when ethics aren’t honored; companies go under, people lose jobs. There are so many consequences that can happen when we don’t have ethical leaders. Amanda Jo Erven: That’s right. Yeah, absolutely. How Ethics Fit Into Leadership Jenn DeWall: And I want to jump into talking a little bit about your book because you had talked about character choices. So When you think about ethics, how do you narrow your behavior as a leader to be more ethical? Amanda Jo Erven: Yep, that’s a great question. And I think like we mentioned at the beginning; it can be kind of this topic that nobody wants to talk about. So I approach it in three different character choices. So when you look at the news like you said, you see a lot of what I call, and I actually took this term from an author I’ll tell you about in just a second. The “Big Me.” So the Big Me, David Brooks wrote a great book called The Road to Character. And he used this term, the Big Me and it really resonated with me because while he takes his book to depict kind of historical figures and talks about how it used to be, the little me over the big me, in other words, people would put society first in front of their own needs. Amanda Jo Erven: Today when you open the headlines, right, read the news anywhere, it’s all about people really putting themselves above everything else. Whether that is society in general, a team community, even sometimes your organization. But that’s to me where a lot of this is starting, and that is obviously the worst of the character choices of the three. So that is the first one you want to hear the second one. So the second one is where I’d say 99% of us live, and that is the Ethical Rationalizer. So you’ve probably heard the term rationalizer or maybe even the term blind spot. And that’s what I say is kind of the middle ground. That is where most of us live. We rationalize some of our behavior. We have these great intentions, but we tend to act contrary to them, and we don’t even know we’re doing it sometimes. Jenn DeWall: Does it even count when I’m speeding on the highway? Amanda Jo Erven: Ooh, now here. So. Jenn DeWall: I guess I rationalize that, right? Amanda Jo Erven: You’re in a hurry. Right? Same thing. I always use the I do quick little ethics quizzes in my presentations because I like to get people just thinking of the things that might seem inconsequential. So it’s somebody who forgets to ring something up, and you get all the way to your car. And I ask people, what do you do? Do you go back in, or do you rationalize? You don’t have enough time, you’ve got an important meeting. Does it depend on whether that item that they forgot was a $2 item or a $200 item? Right. These are the things we all think about in these decisions, these choices, hence the name of the book that we make every day. So that is, that’s the middle bucket. Jenn DeWall: I love that. Ethics is all about choices, and I feel like I was ethical last night. I had an appointment, and she had initially charged me just for that appointment, but I was naughty, and I canceled within her 24-hour window, and I told her I would pay it our next appointment, and then she forgot, and I had to remind her. So I’m like, I don’t want that in my conscience that I did not pay her for something that I missed because I canceled outside of the window. Right. And so I feel like I was on the middle ground of ethics. Amanda Jo Erven: You were! I watch, I have an eight-year-old son, and we actually watch a show called Brain Games, and there is an entire episode on watching people. They do kind of hidden cameras. And how they behave. If the cashier gives them too much change, are they honest? Do they give it back? Does it depend on whether the person behind the counter is nice to you or not nice to you? And it’s really, really interesting and it’s a great show for kids, but it’s a great episode that shows how do we, how do we always, are we always honest? Right? Even in those little situations. Jenn DeWall: You brought up a good point, it is easy sometimes to rationalize that person maybe wasn’t so kind, or they were really rude. So you don’t even think about it. You’re just, you know, ready to say, well, you were rude to me. So that in some way, you’re entitled to the benefit that you gave, even though it’s not ethical. Amanda Jo Erven: Exactly. That’s the rationalization that a lot of us do. So. Jenn DeWall: Now, what is the third character choice? The Everyday Ethicist Amanda Jo Erven: So the third character choice is what I have trademarked as the Everyday Ethicist, which can be a mouthful. And I’m actually writing the book as we speak and literally living and breathing and researching every day for this book. But essentially, the Everyday Ethicist has a mantra, like silence is not golden or speak the truth, even if your voice shakes or never compromising their integrity at any cost, even if it’s $2. Right. so one of my keynote ethics presentations is called “Say Something, Even If,” and that is really what it means to be an everyday ethicist. Jenn DeWall: So it can be that it can be a really scary place. Let’s say something even if, and I think it’s hard if you don’t have a culture that where you feel trust and support it, it can be really, really hard to maybe if you’re maybe an unknown person or don’t have a lot of power, it can be really hard to say something even if. Amanda Jo Erven: Absolutely. And that’s why I loved it when you invited me to talk about this from an ethics and leadership standpoint and how can we truly be an ethical leader. And I think the only way one can truly be an ethical leader is if you say something, even if you have to have that quality in your back pocket. The Road to the Chairman’s Circle Jenn DeWall: So, Oh my gosh, I’m excited to just learn. I feel like I even have more insights is such a challenging thing to be right or wrong and to be so exposed. But we’ll, I know that we’re going to get more into that. I wanted to talk about another piece from your book, which was the road to the Chairman Circle, which is, you know, taking our ethics, like how can we continue to find success while being ethical leaders? You talked about five different milestones that we can hit on our road to the Chairman Circle, which is where we all want to be. That’s like the optimal level of success for ourselves. Milestone 1: Becoming Self-Aware Amanda Jo Erven: Absolutely. So yes, the Chairman’s Award or Chairman’s Circle, however, you want to call it. Here’s how I do this in my live presentations. I actually have everyone get. I put a bunch of blank papers in the middle of the table, and I have everyone grab one, and I say, want you to write down every quality of the person you most admire in your life. Amanda Jo Erven: You know, that can be from the highest integrity to the, they’re always on time to, you know, they just earned everyone’s respect. Whatever it is, those qualities, you know, and I challenge them to write down 10 or 15 things, then I actually have them rate themselves on each one of those qualities that they wrote down. And, and honestly, that’s the first step. That’s the first milestone. That’s how we get to be very self-aware of where we are on our own road to the Chairman’s award. So that is milestone number one. Becoming self-aware, however, you can do that some other ways that I think are great ways to do that. You had a great video on feedback, how you give it, how you receive it. I loved watching that because feedback is one way that we can all become more self-aware. And of course, it’s great if it comes from our trusted advisors or even our closest friends or family. However, you can get that feedback. But that’s another great technique or tool that you can use to really become self-aware of yourself. Jenn DeWall: I have to assume that there are some people that may not be aware that their behavior is blurred on the ethical lines spectrum. And so that feedback is so valuable to help you really see clearly where you need to pivot to ensure that you’re more ethical. Amanda Jo Erven: Absolutely. Before you see whatever you’re doing on the front page of the paper, right? You want to ask those around you to be honest with you and say, you know, what do you think about this that I’m about to decide or do or actions. So that’s why I always tell everybody, think about what you’re doing. If it would be on the front page of the paper, would you act differently? Right? That’s the epitome of being self-aware. Jenn DeWall: If you were recording me, driving down the highway on my way to work. I may not want that to be on the front page. I wouldn’t say I’m – I just speed. Okay? Amanda Jo Erven: The truth is coming out! Jenn DeWall: Like I don’t, I wouldn’t say I But I definitely am not ethical. I mean, and I go in and out of traffic, and I try to get there as fast as I can because traffic is terrible. Amanda Jo Erven: I know. It is everywhere. I’m going to make Jenn take my six-question ethics quiz after this because actually, it’s not whether you speed, it’s what you do when you get caught. Jenn DeWall: We should do the six questions on the podcast! Amanda Jo Erven: We could do that. We can do that. They’re very simple. We definitely, I’d love to do that. We’ll save that if we have time at the end. Milestone 2: Finding Your Passion Jenn DeWall: Let’s talk about your second milestone, which is finding your passion. Amanda Jo Erven: So honestly, I think you cannot be a leader in anything you do if you don’t love what you do. So the bottom line on earning the Chairman’s Award is you’re never going to get there if you’re not in a position or a job that you absolutely love. So that’s what I mean by finding your passion. Making sure that you’re working towards those longer-term goals, not just the short fixes bandaids here and there. You’ve got to be making sure you’ve got long-term stretch goals, and you’re passionate about everything you do. Otherwise, you’re just never going to get there. The person that you wrote down that you admired more than anyone in the world they were, I guarantee they were passionate about what they do. So that’s definitely something you need as a milestone there. Jenn DeWall: Well, I’ve always heard the expression energy goes, where passion flows. And it is true. Like for me, it’s very true to me what I am excited about something. I’m a pretty enthusiastic person. That’s right at a normal level. But when I’m very excited it’s, there’s no telling like how much I’ll work for that, how much I want it, how much more fulfilled I feel when I accomplish it. Amanda Jo Erven: And you don’t realize how much you’re influencing others. Your energy is contagious, right? Your passion can be contagious. And that is that’s, that’s super important as well to earn an award like this, right? Or, or being in the Chairman Circle, is that you’re influencing the others around you positively as well. Perfect. Yeah. Milestone 3: Fine-tuning Your Grit Jenn DeWall: So milestone number one being self-aware. Milestone number two is to find your passion. What is milestone number three? Amanda Jo Erven: Milestone number three is fine-tuning your grit. So I know everybody loves the word grit, right? Angela Duckworth wrote, but yeah, I just posted another article yet another article about her and her study of grit, right? She studies West point graduates, her book is excellent, but she, she takes grit and puts it into two categories, passion, and perseverance. So to me, this piece of fine-tuning your grit is really the perseverance part. It is doing your passion. Step two, milestone two. And no matter the odds, no matter the obstacles, no matter the challenges that we face. We know we all face that. That’s a fact of life. But it’s how we do that, how we overcome those challenges. You’ll notice that person you wrote down on your list from step one as well. I guarantee they faced a lot of challenges, and they’ve persevered through it. So this is a matter of you’ve got to figure out the best way to do that as well. Jenn DeWall: And sometimes maybe even going back to that list, ask them if you really think they possibly did not have to overcome adversity anyway, ask them, you know, ask them what their story is. Because too often we compare ourselves and assume that someone’s road is easier than ours or that they’re getting it right and we’re getting it wrong, and then it can just take away all of our energy to be able to move forward. I love grit because in that book too, if I recall it correctly, she talks about just that difference that like you could be more highly talented, highly educated, more X, Y, and Z. But if you don’t have grit, you will not do more or achieve more than the individual that may be less talented, have fewer resources, but has that grit. Amanda Jo Erven: Exactly. So she said she’s, she says talent is not alone, is not enough. Skill alone is not enough. Right. You need more than that. You need a culmination of things. And, and that is what she coins as grit or terms as grit, which I loved. Jenn DeWall: You’re always reminded, even in the entrepreneurial space too. I saw this shirt when I was at the dog park, and it stuck with me so much. And he was wearing a shirt that said, I eat nos for breakfast. Right. Like that is one of the best shirts. And that’s a Testament to grit. It’s, yeah, there’s going to be a lot of nos. There’s going to be a lot of mistakes. There’s going to be a lot of failures. It doesn’t mean you’re meant to give up, and it just means you have to figure out how you can pick yourself back up and move forward. Amanda Jo Erven: That’s right. I know. I write in the book, and there’s a Thomas Edison piece where he found 6,000 ways to fail. When they ask how, you know, why did you keep going? Well, I didn’t, you know, I know. I believe that’s what it was. 6,000 ways. Yeah. Jenn DeWall: There are multiple ways to fail. You can keep trying. Amanda Jo Erven: He’s succeeded at that. Right? That’s the way you just; it’s your mindset. It’s how you look at something, right? I didn’t fail 6,000 times. I actually found 6,000 ways to fail. So it’s, it’s just your mindset and how you look at it. Jenn DeWall: So important because that’s the one thing that we can always control. Yeah. A Message From Our Host: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I just wanted to drop in with a quick note. Are you looking for a proven program to improve your management team’s communication skills and create happier and more productive employees? Are your leaders able to take your strategy and break it down effectively for their teams to achieve your vision? Are they able to inspire and motivate their employees to produce real results and meet daily demands? Great managers don’t happen overnight. Partner with Crestom to develop your team and obtain results, whether you are looking to improve employee engagement and reduce turnover or cultivate a more inclusive culture. Our intensive leadership development program provides a diverse set of tools and skillsets for leaders to thrive in today’s workforce. Contact us at crestcom.com so we can help you develop your leaders. And now, back to our podcast. Milestone 4: Become a Problem Solver Jenn DeWall: Let’s go into milestone number four, becoming a problem solver. Amanda Jo Erven: So I like to say becoming a problem solver, not just a complainer. So it’s becoming that person that just doesn’t point out when something’s wrong, or something’s going wrong, you actually do something about it, right? You are not just part of the problem. You become part of the solution. So that’s what I mean by being a problem solver. You go above and beyond at your organization, within your position. You just figure out what, what went wrong, the root cause, however, you want to look at it. But you’re constantly just also looking for ways to improve upon things, right? Not just, you know, kind of settle in the what-ifs or the negative of things. This is the let’s just solve the problem and move on, move forward from it. Jenn DeWall: Take a little ownership. Instead of saying not my responsibility. I don’t have to look at that. Oh, that must really suck that you- my teammate over there- are going through that, sorry. How can you be more collaborative? How can you be more open? How can you take accountability and really use that to help someone else or solve that problem and come up with a viable solution? Amanda Jo Erven: And that’s right. Engage in that implementation of a solution. However, you can do that. Milestone 5: Earning Respect Jenn DeWall: Perfect. Now the last milestone is focusing on the factors for earning respect. Yes. What does that mean? How do you earn respect for the people that really are struggling to do that? Amanda Jo Erven: Well, number one, I think it started with step four. You solve big problems, right? You focus, I always say major on the majors, so you can’t, you know, constantly get hung up on the little things, whether that’s in life, personally or professionally. You’ve got to focus on the big things, the big rocks, however you want to look at it and identify those root causes of those problems that will result in itself, especially within your organization, will earn you more and more respect. Amanda Jo Erven: My second real big thing for knowing you’ve actually earned respect is when people seek you out for advice. So that’s actually a great test and a great Testament to say, I really think I’ve, I’ve gotten there, I people I am now mentoring others more than I am being mentored, even though I think both roles are equally as important, but, but really how can you focus on helping others so much that then they come to you and they’re, they’re seeking you out for advice. So that’s one of my big factors for earning respect. And the last one really is delivering your function. And of course, ethically, falls into play here. But being obsessed with delivering it the best you can. So this is where everything matters. Whether it is an email presentation that you write, whether it is an actual presentation, a PowerPoint presentation that you do when you stand up, and speak at a meeting, whether a small meeting or a big meeting, right? Amanda Jo Erven: Everything matters. Attractiveness counts in every profession. And I think I just have to tell him where we go for gold. Everything you do, even if it’s a two-sentence email. So really just delivering your function, whatever that function might be. Those are really my factors for earning respect. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Be intentional with what you’re putting out there and the perception that you’re creating because perception is reality, right? That’s executive presence right there. If you want to be the executive, you want to hit Chairman Circle, and you have to act like that in your communication, in your appearance, in your interactions, and your relationships. Do the Right Thing When No One is Watching Amanda Jo Erven: Yeah. And it goes back to you know they have that one famous quote, integrity is, is doing the right thing when no one’s watching. Right. So it’s about doing the right thing or carrying yourself well, no matter who’s watching because you never know who’s watching. And I think that is from an ethics standpoint or just a Chairman standpoint, and it is just really making those good decisions no matter who’s around. Jenn DeWall: Right. That’s, I mean, you have a clear conscience. Yes. I remember that. Like we own that, and you know, it doesn’t feel good when you make a mistake and, or you do something that may not have been, because I know that there is on this, there’s gotta be a spectrum for ethical behavior, right? Where there’s this small piece where okay they, you know, I might’ve taken a dollar or not even that bad. It’s, I feel bad when there’s money involved, and there are definitely things where you’re like, Amanda Jo Erven: Maybe the office supplies when it comes up a lot. Jenn DeWall: Office supplies, right. Or like, oh, they forgot to charge me for like this, but, and it was an extra that was supposed to be 50 cents or a dollar or whatever it is. They seem nominal, but really it’s all about ethics. Like you’re still violating ethics in some way. Ethics Simplified – It Really is Black and White Amanda Jo Erven: Yes. Yeah. And my very first ethics presentation I called Ethics Simplified, and I actually show a start that presentation, and I still do it every once in a while with a picture of my son drew in the first grade. They were all asked to draw doing the right thing. And it is amazing when you see a lot of six-year-olds what they think that means. And I like to break down ethics back to it, just doing right or wrong. It is a little more black and white than it’s become in today’s society. Not a little more. It is black and white, more black and white than it is when you open the paper, and you read all of these unethical things happening in the workforce tend to start small. Right? And that’s what we read about, and that’s what kind of, you rationalize the little things, and it can get out of hand into the big things. So the point is, let’s eliminate even the small stuff. Jenn DeWall: Absolutely. And also, be the role model for the behavior that you want others to replicate, right? If you’re stealing office supplies or you go on that, you know, lunch or dinner on the company and you order a million things actually, is that unethical? If you’re ordering an excessively priced meal that you wouldn’t typically order because a company’s paying for, is that ethical or is not? Is that even part of the ethical spectrum? Amanda Jo Erven: Oh, there’s, there could be a lot to the ethical spectrum. We could probably talk for hours on this. Ethics on the Road to Leadership Jenn DeWall: I know there’s just so much. Well, in addition, in your book, you talk about the mile markers on the road to leadership, and we’re going to talk about maybe four or five of these depending on how much time we have, but one of them was that a genuine leader is a model for ethical behavior and inspires others to do likewise. I know we just touched on that, but truly it’s about being that role model. Amanda Jo Erven: It is about being, and it’s about walking the talk really. No matter who you are, what position you are. I always like to say everyone’s a leader, right? We hear that all the time. If you interact with others, you are a leader, right? You have the ability to lead others. So it is truly just knowing that one little white lie can send a signal. That hypocrisy is okay. It opens those floodgates for, you know, little things to become big things. So, it’s just really watching at your every move and being very like you said, deliberate about your actions. So that’s, that’s what modeling the behavior is to me. Jenn DeWall: I think that’s so important for the people that are maybe sitting in higher-level roles within their organizations who, whether it’s a director or a vice president, manager, I mean C-suite of course, the higher up that hierarchy you go; the more your words truly matter your words and behaviors. You’re the one that has the power. You’re the one that’s setting the example. So if you’re unethical or you make a, you know, Oh, that’s not that big of a deal, you can just bypass that. Well, that’s the behavior that you’re infusing into your cultural fabric, right? Amanda Jo Erven: Yeah. There is an excellent book. I’ve read a different ethics book, probably every day, The Power of Ethical Management. And it’s coauthored by Kenneth Blanchard, who wrote the One Minute Manager and Norman Vincent Peale. I think it’s how you say his last name. They go into a story. I think it’s a pretty famous story actually, of a young man and all of the things the adults in his life do his whole life from when he’s little up through college. And it’s a really insightful- little tiny things along the way. You know you don’t, your parents don’t tell when something on the bill doesn’t get charged and just his kind of observations of life. Amanda Jo Erven: And then something happens to him big in school, and he’s caught cheating, and he gets kicked out, and his parents come back and say, we cannot believe this. You’ve disgraced us. We’ve never taught you to be this way. But the entire story is the things he learned from his parents and his grandparents and his aunts and an uncle along the way. And it’s like, that is what we’re teaching, and we have to be very careful, especially with our children on what we’re showing them. We don’t even think we’re doing it. But if you’re interested, it’s an excellent little story. Jenn DeWall: No, it sounds really neat. And I think that’s true. I think, you know, I’m not a parent, but I know that that’s the most difficult thing for a lot of my friends is knowing what they are being, you know, what’s being tallied in terms of their development. What did you, it’s hard to know until you kind of see that when they play it out as an example to know what they’re picking up on. Absolutely. But being sensitive and intentional about it yourself will help you make better parenting choices to help your child be more ethical as they grow older. Amanda Jo Erven: Yes, definitely. It definitely, it was when I read it, it hit home with me for sure. So Never Be a Lapdog Jenn DeWall: Now another one of the mile markers that you talk about is a genuine leader is never a lapdog. What does lapdog mean? Amanda Jo Erven: Okay. So this one I even in my presentations I say no, this could be offensive to some people that term. So I actually put a picture up of my little tiny Pomeranian lapdog just to kind of ease the crowd a little bit and on this one. But what it means is when you open the newspaper, and you look at some of these scandals that have happened in organizations, I always say there is someone else that knew, right? Someone else knew what was happening. What I mean by don’t be a laptop is speak up. You know, don’t be the person that says, yes ma’am, yes sir. Or I knew it was wrong, but my boss told me to do it. That is to be the classic business rationalization that occurs. And that’s when we become this lapdog to others that are unethical. Perhaps at our organization, so it’s really just bottom line is speak up that that’s the big let’s say statement behind not being a lapdog. Jenn DeWall: Yeah, absolutely. It’s hard. And I’m going to say this from personal experience. I once had a boss that asked me to do something that was highly unethical, and it could have actually resulted in a lawsuit if anyone caught on. And when I went to the legal team to verify after he had told me that I was not able to just keep going with it, I went around him and asked our legal team, and then I was reprimanded for asking your legal team. And so it’s so interesting for how that works out. I mean, I didn’t end up doing what he had asked me to do, but it was very interesting because that also started to change the dynamic of how he saw me. So it is really, really, it’s a lonely place. So you’re going to start to call out ethical behavior or unethical behavior. It can be really, really challenging. I mean, I am here, I’m fine. I still am so proud of my choices, but it definitely wasn’t an easy go after I had done that. Amanda Jo Erven: Yeah. And I think the lapdog role even if you think back to something like Enron and the CFO, and Andy Fastow could be considered someone that was in a lapdog role, he still rationalizes that he really never broke the law. The lawyers said you know, never said anything was wrong. Like those classic rationalizations. So, it happens so much more. Your example, I get examples, probably two or three of them, two or three people come up to me after every ethics presentation and want to tell me something that’s happened that they’ve been through in their careers. So we’ve all been put in that position at some point Or another. Jenn DeWall: So it creates instant disengagement. Absolutely. Because how do you want to support any organization or boss that I would say tolerates that and accepts it and it’s, yeah, that’s a, it’s, you know, it’s really, really hard to stay engaged when you watch that type of behavior because it does lead you to wonder what else is happening. If this is one of them, like what else is happening that I’m not even privy to, and maybe it’s time to find a better place for me. That’s a great thing. I think that if you’re starting to see where your values are being crossed, or you’re asked to do them, you know, like find a new opportunity, do not stay in that environment because you could risk-depending on how big that scandal is- being pulled down with it, just by knowing that it’s there being that lapdog and not doing anything about it. Amanda Jo Erven: Yeah. I always ask in a lot of my training if their boss is in the room with them, and the reason I asked that is that I tell them I’m going to challenge them to make sure their personal values match their organization values. And if not, it might be time to leave. And even challenge, do your personal values match those of your boss? Because it’s very important to make sure that you’re on the right fit with the right leaders. Otherwise, you can’t lead ethically as well. So. Love Your Whistleblowers Jenn DeWall: Absolutely, if they’re your roadblock, not going to work, it’s just not gonna work. So we just touched on this, but genuine leaders LOVE their whistleblowers. Amanda Jo Erven: Yes! Then I get to put my picture up as a child again on the screen. This one, to me, starts with not even having what everybody calls an open door policy. I always tell everyone to have no door policy. You listen to anything and everything that comes your way. That, to me, is loving your whistleblowers and whistleblowers is an extreme word. But it can be people just admitting a mistake. It’s having that leadership of being so transparent and open and vulnerable, making sure everybody around you can walk in the door and tell you when something’s wrong. So that is truly what I mean by love your whistleblowers, that no door policy, Jenn DeWall: How do you get the whistleblower to love themselves? That’s a scary place. Like what advice would you have for a whistleblower that, or someone that’s contemplating maybe saying something right now, what would you advise them to do? Amanda Jo Erven: You know, I think in an organization where they genuinely have leaders that love their whistleblowers, it’s not as hard, right? Because you do feel like it is an environment where you can come forward, and there won’t be any backlash. Now, I think that is very rare. And in today’s world, unfortunately, I’d say I talked to a lot of groups, specifically women’s groups, but it applies to everyone about being what I call pro-self. And that is proactive and selfish. And to me, that’s what whistleblowers kind of have to rely on. They have to know, Hey, I’m getting in front of this. I’m not going to react to it later. I’m going to be proactive, which is the right thing to do in a lot of facets of life. And be selfish because I try to turn negative, bring the negative out of the word selfish. Amanda Jo Erven: It is okay to put yourself first. It is absolutely okay to put your personal values first. And the more you remind yourself how important your own personal values are; I think the more you will love yourself for doing this and be proud of yourself for doing this. But this is why I love teaching about ethics because I have so many people tell me I needed this check. I needed to bring this back to the forefront because we all think we’re ethical and we have integrity. But if we don’t remember and remind ourselves every day, I have an everyday ethicist contract that I hand out so you can post it on your cube. Right. we need to be reminded still of these things, and the more you have belief in this and belief in yourself, the more willing you’ll be to come forward. I think so. Jenn DeWall: Right. And starting to just challenge yourself. Yes. To be an everyday ethicist. I’m sure in the beginning it could probably be a challenge. It might start with those office supplies that you have to go out and buy your own. Amanda Jo Erven: Just go buy that ream of paper at Walmart. Jenn DeWall: Go get your Bic pens at target. You’re going to be good to go. I’m sure that can be a challenge, but it is great, can they access that on your website? Where do they get the everyday ethicist contract because I think everyone should probably have that hanging in there. Amanda Jo Erven: It is not on my website. If anybody listens to this and wants it, just email me. I know you’ll get my email information after the webcast. So personal email to me, and I’ll make sure you get it. Jenn DeWall: Because I think we all need a reminder. Maybe I should put it in my car. Amanda Jo Erven: Maybe I should add something about speeding on there. Jenn DeWall: I love that that’s how that equates to me is like what are the other- I’m trying to think about the things that maybe I do that are not as ethical. Because I probably don’t notice that they’re, cause they’re not so big and in your face, maybe ones that I’ve seen with consequences. So I may not think they’re that bad or I do that rationalizing where I’m like, this isn’t that bad. Because I know that there are things that I do, and I just can’t readily think of one beyond speeding. Amanda Jo Erven: I mean people in my classes, I have some very healthy debates in my ethics classes because there are so many people out there that think ethics is not black and white, that there’s a lot of gray areas. And I think where that comes into play is how serious they think it is. Right? If no one’s lives are at stake, you know how big of a deal is it really, and I think that’s the term that a lot of people think of when they think of ethics. Like it’s not that bad. Yeah. It’s like the opposite applies. They’re not going to miss this stack of post-its. It’s totally fine. Amanda Jo Erven: Right. It starts there. Ethical Leaders and The Little White Lie Jenn DeWall: Another mile marker that you talked about was about ethical leaders. Is that a genuine leader who doesn’t overcommit or exaggerate? Yes. So one of my favorite quotes is it’s much better than the truth beats what you say than if what you say fall short of the truth. So that’s kind of a mouthful, but really it’s just about the fact-driven, be honest. And don’t try to make either yourself or the numbers ever look better than they are. This is what gets people in trouble. This is where you see that culture. It’s that over-exaggeration of you know, inflating revenue, those kinds of things that you see businesses get in trouble for. And it’s the little white lies that start, especially when you’re talking leadership, they get leaders into trouble. Jenn DeWall: Can you give me an example of a little white lie someone might tell? Amanda Jo Erven: One that I’ve seen personally at an organization and actually just watched a news journalist report on a CEO in Silicon Valley that lied on their resume, right? Lied on their resume, lied on LinkedIn. You know, there are some examples of leaders that start out at their organization with little white lies, and they might think that it’s not that big of a deal. And it, you know, I think a lot of the justification there is that if it just gets me in the door and then I can do good things while I’m there. Right. I think there’s a lot of embellishments going on in resumes and I’ve seen it in really top leadership. Jenn DeWall: You actually, I have seen it a lot on LinkedIn, and that’s so strange to me. Why people? Amanda Jo Erven: Because you think it’s provable, right? It’s like, yeah, actually. Some Examples of Unethical Leadership Amanda Jo Erven: So I’ll touch on the one I actually started showing a short clip of Shannon Spake was the CEO of Clio, the organization. She stepped down in August, so this is very fresh a couple of months ago. They talk about her top hundred woman women award in from the Grace Hopper Foundation and Forbes uncovered, there is no such thing as the Grace Hopper foundation, and the only place this award showed up was in her LinkedIn profile. And so it’s, it’s a really interesting video that they released just from actually wanting to interview her and her company as one of the top new startup companies. So it went in to be a positive interview and turned out to uncover this complete embellishment by the CEO who’s then stepped down. So those are little things, right? I think it all started because she lied about her age at the beginning. So little things matter. Right. And so anyway, that, that’s my, that would be my example, and I think it’s happening a lot more out there. Jenn DeWall: Well, especially as people feel that you know, they want those, I’m sure they see it a lot in tech. You want those popular attractive positions, and you know that there’s top talent going for them. So you want to do whatever it takes to stand up in the crowd. And I see it on LinkedIn with people wanting to embellish their LinkedIn, or they modify kind of the history of their role, and they make it look like it’s bigger than what it is or it’s different than what it is. And you know, what’s the protocol? Because I feel like, I don’t think I would call someone out for that. Yeah. So I think there are other things I naturally would, but like I wouldn’t say, you know what Susan or whoever that is, I challenge those facts on your LinkedIn profile. Do you call out that ethical behavior? Amanda Jo Erven: I talk a lot, and I’m an auditor by nature, and everyone thinks auditor is a bad thing. But I truly, I try to teach internal auditors within a company to really do add more value than they currently do. And we actually talk about auditing culture at an organization. And it’s one of my favorite things to talk about. And one of the things I provide in my total quality auditing workbook is actually a checklist for personnel selection. And some of the questions that you can start asking in interviews. And really to me, it is putting aside that resume and really, you know, digging deeper into some ethical or integrity questions, behavioral, how would you respond in these, in these situations. But you know, I think too much we focus on those things, on those resumes and we’re just asking about those things. Well, what if those things are fabricated, you know, on the, on that resume? So to me, it is all about just using some really good gut judgment when you’re starting to interview people because that’s really the goal. It’s critical. Jenn DeWall: I mean, how do you, how would you even think to doctor your resume? I’m like, how would I doctor mine? I mean, I guess I would, I love my University, I love it so much. What if I change that and say I went to Harvard like I just can’t imagine doing that. Amanda Jo Erven: One of the examples, and this will hit home with you as a speaker as well. The CEO that I just mentioned, she actually put on hers that she was a UN expert on her LinkedIn. Well, she had spoken at a workshop at a UN conference twice, and they said, you know, not really does that constitute you as a, you know, UN expert. Right? And so it’s, it is just taking those little things and saying it’s more than what it is. Jenn DeWall: I’ll just say this, but they will find out. I mean, it’s a digital world, so if you’re willing to put it out there, digital public-facing, expect that they’re going to be people that notice that, challenge it, that have questions that could uncover it. Amanda Jo Erven: To your point. I bet it starts happening more and more. I really do. I think as we all get better at, you know, we know employers check social media all the time now. So I think it’s going to get to that point where you’re really validating what’s out there about a person. So yes. Jenn DeWall: And they have to, you have to know who you’re hiring. Amanda Jo Erven: That’s right. Professional Conduct is more Important than Business Conduct Jenn DeWall: Okay. We have our last mile marker, which is a genuine leader knows professional conduct trumps business conduct. Okay. That one’s a big one. And think that your business conduct is important too. Amanda Jo Erven: Right? So let me tell you the best way that, that I have found to explain this is actually a way that Tom Peters explains the difference between the hard stuff and the soft stuff at an organization. So the soft stuff, the people, the culture, the ethics, the leaders, the relationships, the soft stuff is what’s hard at an organization. The hard stuff, the numbers, the bottom lines, the profits, that’s the easy stuff. That’s the soft stuff. That’s the stuff that should just happen naturally. Right? It should be what it is. Nobody should be working at them. Right. and so that’s kind of what I think between professional and business. So professional is the softer stuff. Professional is how you treat others. The care that you have for your customers or your patients. At the end of the day, whoever your stakeholders are, your organization is keeping them in mind first. Business conduct is I have to make the most money of any of my competitors, right? So it is when I say professional conduct trumps business conduct. sometimes if that business conduct comes first, that’s where we see these companies in the headlines. They are worried too much about their bottom line, and it gets out of control. They set too high of goals, and people start unethically reaching them. If they were more on the professional side and the professional bucket, they would never even think to do that. You would never inflate the numbers for the cost of your shareholders. Jenn DeWall: Who was that woman? And you might know it better than I do because of where your area of expertise is, but there was a woman from Silicon Valley that was selling the, what was that? Blood testing or something? Amanda Jo Erven: So, Elizabeth Holmes, Theranos is one of my favorite cases. Yes, she is, you know, and she is actually one that I to go back to what we started this conversation with, the big me, her vision and, and people will call her a visionary was too big. Right? It was, she was the big meat. It was all about her to the point of sacrificing the patients, right? Not even getting accurate blood testing results. And there were a lot of victims per se along the way of her. But I actually call her one of my classic big me examples like hers. And I actually just finished a great podcast series called The Dropout on her. If anybody’s interested in that story cause I’m enthralled with it. Jenn DeWall: So, Oh my gosh, I want to learn more. She’s got a lot of people to buy into her message to her business even though it was all a fabrication. Amanda Jo Erven: Yes, absolutely. Yep. And I and I actually just to credit, I’m a huge fan of John Bogle, who was the CEO and founder of Vanguard who passed away in April this year. And he is really the one where I’ve, I, I’ve got the professional versus business conduct. So he was obviously in the financial services industry, and in that industry, advisors can put people in bad investments, right, because they get higher fees or more commissions on those investments versus others. So he always told all of his employees to professionalism first before business. And he’s, he was highly successful and so is his company. And I think that shows a lot today. And that that should be modeled in other organizations. What is Your Leadership Habit? Jenn DeWall: No, that’s, yes, absolutely. It’s all a lot of modeling. So I have loved our conversation so much, but I know that we have to wrap up. So I have to ask you our final question, which we asked everyone. Which is what is your leadership habit for success? Amanda Jo Erven: Oh, you know, I’m gonna go full circle and tell you it’s say something, even if. I think speaking up can be a habit. If we do it enough, Our Choices on the Road of Life actually has an entire chapter on the choices we make around our habits. And one thing I mentioned in there is that you have to choose the identity you want and build the habits around that identity. And I think if you want an identity as an ethical leader, you have to build those habits and speaking up as a great place to start. So whether it starts with the little things, when you see somebody taking that ream of paper home or whatever it is. To start small, you know, and obviously use discretion, but start somewhere and really start speaking up, standing up for what you believe in. Remember that silence is not golden. Jenn DeWall: Speak up even if. Be brave. Amanda Jo Erven: Yes, absolutely. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. It was such a pleasure to interview you. Amanda Jo Erven: Thank you. I loved being here. Thank you for listening to today’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast with Jo Erven to purchase Jo’s newest book and find out how you can book her to speak with your organization on ethics and much more. Head on over to https://www.auditconsultingeducation.com/. And if you like today’s episode, don’t forget to share it with your friends and family and write us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.   The post Episode 21: Ethics in Leadership with Amanda Jo Erven, CPA, CIA, CFE appeared first on Crestcom International.

Work Fails with Video Specialist Christian Wearly In this episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast continues our newest minisode series, Work Fails. We’ve all had experiences when things did not go as planned in the workplace, but people don’t talk about it. Great leaders know that failure is a part of life and eventual success depends on how we handle the situations and learn from that. So we decided to talk to people about real-life examples of when things didn’t go quite right, how they handled it and what they learned from the experience. And on today’s episode of the leadership habit, we’re continuing our Work Fails series with an interview by Crestcom’s one and only Christian Wearly. Christian is Crestcom’s Motion Graphics Media and Video Specialist, meaning he’s responsible essentially for all of the dynamic videos that we incorporate in all of our trainings. I’m so excited to be interviewing Christian as he shares his work fails because remember we all have the failures. We don’t have to suffer in silence, but we can learn from them and help each other. Jenn DeWall:                      Christian, thanks for coming into the studio today. I’m so happy that you were able to share your work fails because we know that there are just so many people enjoying this – we’ve gotten a lot of positive response from this series because it’s helped many people. I think we’re conditioned to not really talk about our failures because it means that, you know, we should be embarrassed by it. It’s something that we could have prevented, or it’s something that in some way sends a message about who we are as leaders, but really knowing that our failures are really part of our growth strategy and part of our success story. And I understand that you have a few. So Christian, before we get into it, why don’t you tell our listeners maybe what you do, what your role is. Christian Wearly:              So, I am the video editor for the most part. I’ve done this for some variety of, for the last 20 years. So seen enough fails and had enough fails to have a story to go with them. Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah. So I know that we are going to be talking about a few and I love that you’re bringing in even a different side of the, of the business that maybe not a lot of people see, which is that video side of what can go wrong behind the curtain, which is everything that goes into production. So you have a story that has to deal with essentially something that could have been prevented. Christian Wearly:              Yeah. So this happened probably, well this was early 2000. So we were going from, I worked at a post house at the time, and we were going from- pretty much SD, so standard definition to high definition- HD. So the company I was working for had the idea to invest in a camera, a great idea to try to pull in more business for our place. And also the sister company that we were part of, which was a production company. Turning a Big Investment into a Big Mistake Jenn DeWall:                      So this is a big deal. This was a big capital investment because it was something that could – Christian Wearly:              Close to a $100,000 investment. So, yeah, so it’s a big leap, but we felt that between the investment and what we were going to get back, that it was a good investment looking forward into the future. Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah. The camera could allow you to do more things. Christian Wearly:              Yeah. So the first shoot that was scheduled was with the sister company, and they go out they have their video shoot, and everything goes great. As you know, as you’ve been on set, everybody gets chummy afterward and you know, it’s kind of one of those big steps you get done. You know, there’s pre-production and then there’s production and kind of once you get everything recorded it’s like, Oh great, We got that done. Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah. You can kind of take like, yeah, just from that experience of knowing that the work is done, all the heavy lifting is done, and that’s just kind of the end to all of the planning that has led up to the actual production. See. Christian Wearly:              So everybody was, you know, starting to pack up, you know, the camera guy got the camera, and he put it in the box and then they were taking it out to the car and he’s chit-chatting with three other guys, and the grip and whatnot. And you set the camera down to load up a bunch of guarantees truck and thing gets in his truck and starts to leave. Well, when he left, he forgot to put the camera in the truck and backed over the camera. Jenn DeWall:                      Oh, No! Christian Wearly:              Yeah. Jenn DeWall:                      He backed over a $100,000 camera!? Christian Wearly:              He didn’t go completely over it, but he went far enough that it was damaged- and yeah… Jenn DeWall:                      Like that was beyond just a simple, maybe screen repair like what we would do with our cell phones. Christian Wearly:              Yeah. Send it back to Sony and hope in four months they can send it back to you fixed. Jenn DeWall:                      Oh my gosh. And this is something that I’m sure if you’re thinking about even what the value of that camera was, the financial value of $100,000 but even with how much they probably attached to the future sales or the future business, how much additional revenue would be added just through this camera. Then it’s all gone. And this was the first shoot. Christian Wearly:              Yeah, this was the first shoot. The camera had maybe about five hours of recording done on it. Oh my gosh. So it’s not even like broke in new, it’s still like new car smell new. Jenn DeWall:                      Oh my gosh. Yeah. And you haven’t even been able to use it to actually generate revenue yet. So what happened? Like guy gets into his truck or van and backs over the camera. That has to be the, just the worst sound that you’re running over once you figure out what it is. Looking Back, How Could You Prevent a Work Fail? Christian Wearly:              I don’t know if I told you that the box was the cardboard box. It was shipped in, it was sitting in the box and they were moving around that way. So it was kind of a- how-to put this nicely- an epic fails on the management side of, you know, we have a production company and we’re pretty familiar with, you know, all sorts of gear, lighting, gear grip gear. So the things that hold up stuff on set. And so we’re pretty knowledgeable. I mean, our company has been around at that point for 30 years. So it’s not the first rodeo of going out and shooting something and you’ve done it before and I don’t know why, but there was no camera case ordered for the camera when it was purchased. So they were lugging the camera around in the cardboard box that it came in. Jenn DeWall:                      Oh my gosh. Well, it’s just, so that blows my mind. Considering the value of the camera that you know, if what’s inside the box has $100,000, would you use something that’s free and can be easily broken as the thing to protect that value? Christian Wearly:              Right. Most people see when they get packages at home, cardboard boxes don’t usually make it through shipping very well. So why a camera could do that? I don’t know. But yeah, that was, Jenn DeWall:                      That’s a pretty big work fail, and I think what do you, what do you think is the lesson from that? So basically, the guy ends up ruining and destroying a $100,000 camera. Boots your entire ability to generate additional revenue out of commission for the next few months until you can get a repair. And you could have actually remedy that situation by also ordering a case for it instead of not having the protection be a cardboard box. Should anything ever happen? Christian Wearly:              Yeah, it was. It just kind of the overlying failures on a management side of, you know, there was no case, there was no checkout system. So if you wanted the camera, where did you go get a camera? I don’t know who has it now? I don’t know. What gear did they take with the camera? Who knows? So there was just this huge lack of, I don’t want to call it foresight because there wasn’t that either, but there was just no thought of how we should probably protect our investment. Jenn DeWall:                      Right. Or they probably just made the assumption like people will know this is valuable. They’ll take care of it. Whereas that’s not always enough. Christian Wearly:              How many of us have dropped our cell phone? I mean, it’s a $700 phone, but gravity happens, and it drops and you know, you didn’t mean to drop it. It just dropped. Jenn DeWall:                      Oh my gosh. So I mean moral, his story is if you’re going to make a pretty big investment, what are you going to do to protect your investment to make sure that the, you know, that it still has integrity, that it can still perform its function that you needed it for. And to not, you know, I think the other thing that maybe could have happened because I have seen this and maybe it didn’t happen there, but I think it’s funny cause I think people sometimes are willing to invest in a thing that is really expensive, whether that is a phone or a computer or sunglasses or whatever that is. But then when it comes down to a case, then they’re like, oh, I don’t need the case. Like it’s okay. Like I don’t care. Right. And then all of the sudden- hindsight is 2020- like computer breaks, sunglasses break and you’re like, dang, I wish I would’ve had that. Christian Wearly:              Yeah. Should’ve bought the ten dollar case. Jenn DeWall:                      That you know, sometimes it pays to just invest in that small amount even though that amount is significantly less than the item in there that is still protecting the value. And so that’s just, I think part of the stakes are like what you need to do to be able to actually own that is to know that you have to take care of it. Yeah. Okay. That’s a pretty Epic fail. $100,000 kills your chance of generating revenue. All could have been solved by a simple case, but just no forethought. So thinking about that, just assuming people are all taking care of things and human error happens. Okay. You have another story. Christian Wearly:              I do! The Work Fail Suprise Story Jenn DeWall:                      And you said there is a surprise element of it. So I call it the surprise story. So I’m not sure what the work fail message is, but I am excited to hear it. Christian Wearly:              So this work fail happened when I first started off at the post house, I worked at, at the time, this was, I started there in 2000. So when you start there, they put you at the bottom of the room, which was in the tape room. So the tape room was essentially a room that fed and generated the rest of the building for content. So we had most of that time, most stuff was still on analog tapes. So you load up a tape for the video letter upstairs. He would do his thing, and he was laid back off to tape. Your record is a finished commercial to the tape and then it would go to duplications or wherever else it was going to go. So I had done that for probably four or five years. And then as the progress grows, you go from tape room, then you’re a junior editor at night and you prep material for the editors. Christian Wearly:              And then after a while, you know, if the editor, one of the big guys upstairs leave, you become an editor. One of the things in the tape room is that you run dubs or duplication. Jenn DeWall:                      That’s what dubs means? I never knew that. Christian Wearly:              Yeah. So yeah, so when we would get a dub order, a duplication order, it would be you know, you get your paper and it would have, you know, is it this spot? It’s for this client. It’s on this tape. It has this code number, and it needs these four other things, you know, video signals and all this other stuff. Okay. And then you’ve run your dub and then the first thing you are ingrained to do is hit stop, rewind and check it. Jenn DeWall:                      To make sure all the changes went through, or – Christian Wearly:              You have now made a complete duplication of the original master. So you go through, grabbed your dub order, and you go through the same steps. Is this the spot? Is this the client? Is this the spot the client needs? Yes, yes, yes. Is it meeting all these technical specs? Always do the Double-Check Jenn DeWall:                      This is your double-check. Your safety checker. All of the catch-all. Christian Wearly:              Yes, this is your, this is part of your job of, you know, you did the dub, you checked it, and it’s done and ready to go. Because after you do this, it goes to the television station and goes to the air. So there is no redo at that point. Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah. Once it’s life, or once it aired, it aired. Yeah. Okay. So that’s if you don’t do that and something ends up sliding through the cracks, I imagine that could be bad in a variety of ways. Christian Wearly:              In a variety of ways. Well, it is. Yes. so I had been there probably at this post house, so I was going on 10, 11 years and it was I was moving on. So usually when you’re in a video editor or even speaker stuff usually tend to have a demo reel or a, it’s kind of a series of clips that, you know, show your talent. So I was getting my demo reel together. Awesome. You know, I got it all put together, you know, three and a half minutes of the awesomeness of what I’d done in the last, you know, seven years. Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah. You’re probably like, good job! Christian Wearly:              So I got that done. And then, you know, at this time, DVDs were the main format to send out your demo on. So I go down to the tape room and you know. Usually, there’s like three to five guys in there, you know, at any given time during the day. And I’m chit-chatting with the guys is on, you know, running my dub for my DVDs for my demo reel and you know, chit-chatting and at that time I’d probably say I was a little more hot-shotty- you know, when you get comfortable in a spot, you kind of do the kind of that rooster strut of, you know, you’re just kind of the, Jenn DeWall:                      You get a little cocky. Christian Wearly:              Yeah, exactly. Like get outta the way, kid, you know. So I run my DVD dubs make about five or six copies, whatever it was. And then so then I started going to interviews and the first interview out of the gate goes really well, with this gal that was worked for a cable company and one of the channels there. And I was going to be an editor there and you know, we had this really great interview. Everything goes awesome and super well and I leave her an extra copy of my resume and my demo reel. Sweet, awesome, this is going great. Jenn DeWall:                      Totally going to get this job. The Interview Fail Christian Wearly:              I’m feeling great. You know you had those interviews when you leave, and you’re like, Oh, that one went really good. You know, I didn’t bomb too bad there. So a couple of days go by and I was like, oh wait for the email. And the email comes in. All right, great. Oh, here it goes. You know, start reading. Dear Christian, it was a great meeting with you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s like, Oh, this has gone great. Oh, I just can’t wait to get to that part. Do you know? And it was a period. Unfortunately, your demo reel was blank. Jenn DeWall:                      Oh my gosh. Yeah. So the one thing that you needed to essentially secure the job You didn’t do. Christian Wearly:              Yes. So from years and years of being ingrained of these three steps of you make a dub, you check your dub, you make sure before you send it away that it’s right. I didn’t do the basic steps that were just ingrained into me year after year, after year after year, Jenn DeWall:                      Especially after you are all cocky. Like I’ve got this all figured out. What happened? Christian Wearly:              Well, I didn’t hear, other than that email. I sent a very nice email back to her saying I completely understand. I apologize and you know, and let that be that. And then I had sent out two other blank demo reels with my resume and surprisingly, I didn’t hear back from them. Jenn DeWall:                      I mean I feel like it’s the equivalent of maybe someone that wouldn’t have a demo reel, but it would probably be like sending a resume just littered with errors, like something that is obviously just not what’s going to make you seem attractive or just something where they would assume like, this is obvious. Like you’re in this space, you do the production. So you understand that you always need to check these things before you ever send them out. And so there’s an assumption there I’m sure about like your attention to detail, your ability to. Christian Wearly:              You say you’re great at attention to detail, but the one detail you really nail you completely missed. Jenn DeWall:                      That’s like, yeah, that’s kind of, I’ve definitely reviewed resumes in a past life and saw, I’ve seen the wrong phone numbers, I’ve seen a missing phone number and given that that’s such an important piece of a resume when those things don’t work out, it’s very hard to want to try to figure out how to get in touch because there’s so much that you could argue is said about their lack of attention to detail, to making sure that they’re going to get a callback. Christian Wearly:              Yeah. I always kinda think of it, you know, your resume and demo reel or speaking for you when you’re not there. So when you’re not there, what are they saying for you? Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah, you know,and yours was saying nothing. Christian Wearly:              Mine is saying just two minutes of blank space. Jenn DeWall:                      What did you like? How did you recover? What insight did you gain from coming to that failing moment? The Blame Game – Taking Accountability Christian Wearly:              First, you know, the first thing that goes through your head is you want to blame someone. You know, you always feel like you need to kick the dog somewhere else instead of saying, no, that was completely your mess up. Do you know? I think that was the main thing of just owning it, just owning that colossal failure. Jenn DeWall:                      But I think, you know, there’s another lesson that it sounds, let’s end within there. Outside of ownership. It’s also just because you have achieved success, and you have the experience, does not make you somehow perfect. There’s a reason these things were set up and just because you’re really good at what you did didn’t mean that you were never going to face some of those things that you could have fallen into. Christian Wearly:              Yeah, look, it’s, it’s, you know, missing the little things that you’ve been so accustomed to always doing that usually the second, at least for me, the second you’ve taken it for granted is the second that usually comes back to bite you. Jenn DeWall:                      So when you start taking the shortcuts, you’re like, I don’t need to do that. I don’t have time for that. I already know how this works out. Christian Wearly:              Pish Posh, I’m Good! Jenn DeWall:                      Yes. And I think that’s really common as we get into things. And we do get a little cocky just naturally because we think we’ve seen everything before or that we’ve mastered it so well that we could possibly not make a mistake. Whereas a mistake can absolutely happen. Christian Wearly:              That’s right. Jenn DeWall:                      Well, thank you so much for sharing your “Work Fail” stories with us, Christian. I love that. I especially love just even if you’re thinking about applying for a job, you know you can recover from it. You may not be able to recover quickly, but obviously, you’re fine. You’ll be able to find another job. But definitely making sure if there’s anything where you’re putting that resume forward or the demo reel forward that you know you’re double-checking that because those are the ones that we often think are just so boring or we don’t have to pay attention. That’s what’s going to speak for us. But if that doesn’t do the talking for you, there won’t be anything said. Christian Wearly:              That’s right! Jenn DeWall:                      So thank you so much, Christian, I appreciated your stories and I’m so glad that we got to finally bring you in front of the microphone instead of behind it. Christian Wearly:              I know, it was very exciting! Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to today’s Work fails Minisode. If you enjoyed it, or if you know someone that maybe is in a similar situation, share this with your friends or leave us a review. Our goal with work fails is to help everyone understand that mistakes happen, and it’s not a matter of whether they happen, it’s about how we deal with them. So if you found this podcast episode useful for you today, feel free to share it with your friends or give us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Thanks for listening. The post Minisode 4: Work Fails with Video Specialist Christian Wearly appeared first on Crestcom International.

On today’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, Jenn DeWall interviews Daniel Kasper, the CEO of wishlist rewards. During the episode, Dan shares how Wishlist Rewards is changing the way organizations recognize and reward employees to offer more meaningful and experiential rewards to valued employees. Daniel Kasper, CEO of Wishlist Rewards Jenn DeWall:   Hi everyone. On today’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, we are talking to the CEO of Wishlist Rewards. Daniel Kasper. Dan, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. Daniel Kasper:   Thanks, Jenn. It’s been a pleasure and been looking forward to this podcast for quite some time. Crestcom is definitely known as a thought leader within the talent space and the leadership space. So it’s fun to be able to come and talk to someone who is equally as passionate about people in teams as me. Jenn DeWall:   Yes. I love that we’re going to talk about this. I mean, for those that don’t know you, can you just briefly introduce yourself and tell us what Wishlist Rewards does? Daniel Kasper:   Of course. Yeah. So my professional career actually started in special operations with the Navy, so I was molded in a place where teams were everything. They’re actually the difference between life and death. And that’s something that I’ve kind of taken with me, even though I’m not working that environment anymore. So in special operations, your people are your weapons system. So I’m not in the cockpit of an F35 strike fighter. You know, I’m not at the helm of a destroyer. What I have as a team and that team needs to come to pull together to be able to solve problems and very dynamic environments. And that’s something that I’m really taken with and by value. So after the Navy, I was working at Airbnb on the trust and safety team. So we helped to make the platform safer for users. We had like a proactive team that would work with analytics and work with machine learning to flag certain behaviors that were good and let those through. Daniel Kasper:   They would work with certain behaviors that were malicious and flag those out. And then we would send the, all the ambers team or people to kind of review those. And then we had a reactive side. So if anything did happen, we worked to solve that. And now, of course, at Wishlist Rewards. So I’ve been at Wishlist now for about three years. We’re in people software, and we are an HR technology company specifically within the rewards and recognition space. And we created a platform to help organizations accelerate performance, increase engagement, and really improve retention. And we’re really passionate about people. So excited to kind of chat through some of those themes and trends that we’re seeing in the market today. Rewards and Recognition to Improve Employee Retention Jenn DeWall:   Absolutely. I mean, every company, if you really want to retain your top talent, you have to have a rewards and recognition strategy. That’s the only way you’re going to retain them. And I, you know, that’s a strong appeal or attraction for anyone to join an organization. So I love the mission of what you are, what you do. So specifically, what does Wishlist Rewards do? How do you help organizations, you know, or improve engagement or reduce turnover? Daniel Kasper:   Yeah, absolutely. So, our mission and mantra comes from Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. If you remember in like fifth grade when you learn that? You have the bottom tier, which is, Hey, am I breathing? Next tier up is, do I feel safe? That third tier is our mantra, and that’s where we come in. And that’s love and belonging. And so what we help organizations do is help connect to their people. It’s about feeling like they are part of a tribe, feel like they belong somewhere. And that they’re a part of something greater than themselves. So they’re able to move up that ladder to reach that self-actualization. Rewards and, and kind of the gift-giving process and also feeling a part of a tribe is something that’s been core to the human condition for millennia. Right? If I were to give you this water that was sitting in front of me. I would feel something giving you that, and you would feel something. So what we’re doing is digitizing that for a modern era with modern workforces that are working remotely or have multiple offices. We’re helping teams to feel connected in a meaningful way and doing so with some core concepts in psychology that’s been around for thousands of years. Love is Just Damn Good Business Jenn DeWall:   That’s a lot. I mean, when you really break it down and think about it, you are helping people connect, and we spend over a third of our lives in our jobs, and I know as my background in coaching that what people really want is to be seen. And you know, that’s something that we all value. We all strive for, and we want that feedback. We want if there’s opportunities to improve. And that’s where rewards and recognition are so important because it is based on one of our human needs. I love that’s something that you focus on. But you’ve said the word love. Uh oh, right? Some people are still afraid of that word. Why do you think people are afraid of that word? Daniel Kasper:   I think it’s weird for people to bring love or a sense of love into the office. Traditionally, I feel like they are two different things. You keep your personal life, and that’s the love- traditionally- the love component, and then you keep your work professional space. But intertwining the two, I mean we’re all humans, right? We have this human element and being and disconnecting that I think actually removes a piece of compassion and passion from your work. So, the love I think, does actually fit as crazy as that sounds to some people still in today’s workspace, in the work environment. Because it’s that passion, and I want people that are passionate on my team because that’s how we fuel high performing teams. Jenn DeWall:   I love that! Love and passion. And we had an author on our podcast that wrote a book, Steve Farber, he wrote a book called Love is Just Damn Good Business, but really like love is a great way for us to do it. And rewards and recognition are a great way to actually show that you love and value your employees. So how have you seen rewards and recognition strategies evolve over the last five years? Daniel Kasper:   Yeah, I would say in the past five years they’ve changed quite dramatically. First and foremost, through becoming a lot more popular in various industries outside of technology or startups. You know, traditionally you think, Hey, the Executive Chef, the cool rewards and perks that are only in the high funded startup companies, that’s not the case anymore. We see that really across the spectrum, in numerous industries. And, and it’s cool to see this catch on and more than just kind of one segment. The digitized environment. So a lot of times in the past, even in the past five years, you would have rewards and recognition done in like a catalog. So now, we’re seeing the trends really evolve to this space of being digital and global. Going to your, to your tablets, are also your mobile environments as well. Connecting With Your Team Through Meaningful Experiences Daniel Kasper:   So being able to build that in as part of your daily life because it is that important, it’s about connecting to your people and being able to do that simply. I think the power of choice is really becoming important and more important. We’ve seen trends kind of moving towards over the past five years, a blanket strategy of handing out pens to everyone in the office isn’t working anymore because people are so different. And diversity is so important to your team’s overall success. So being able to have a power of choice where what is meaningful for one person may not be to the next. So kind of having that and building that into your solution has really been important. Automation I see as really changing over the past few years. These strategies take a lot of time if you want to do them well. And so being able to leverage the power of technology and build that into a people software I’ve seen as a really predominant kind of unfold itself over the past few years. And it’s less, I also feel around things that sit on your shelf- plaques or trophies- and more about experiences. That’s something that we’re also passionate about, about telling stories. And so that’s something that’s the rewards and recognition space is coming off shelves and more into the world around them. Jenn DeWall:   Going back to thinking about the power of choice and that rewards and recognition, the maybe older philosophies around that where we’re going to give you this pen, or we’ll give you a crystal watch or a crystal plaque. I mean, I definitely had received some of those things that when I left the company, they never came with me. Why? Because what am I going to do with them? And they don’t mean anything outside of the company. And so I love that you’re creating an opportunity for an organization to be meaningful by giving people the opportunity to choose their reward. Is that right? They get to have that opportunity to say, and this is actually what I want to work for. Daniel Kasper:   Exactly. And that’s one of the cool things about using technology and some of the solutions out there is you get a choice, right? Your employer can say, here, here’s a reward. Or here’s a recognition here. A reward is tied to that, and now you can go out and choose what’s meaningful for you. So it’s, it’s good from the employer’s perspective is, Hey, you know, it was a meaningful recognition. It showed, you know, kind of what they accomplished, the impact on the business, and then also they’re able to select from, you know, any of these experiences, whether that be from skydiving or a bucket trip to Thailand or a spa day, something that’s meaningful to them. Jenn DeWall:   I want to go to Thailand! Daniel Kasper:   Let’s go. Jenn DeWall:   I mean, I really want to go there. You know, the big talk around the generations, especially recently, there was a hashtag OK boomer, that came up, right? We know that we’re still talking about diversity in the workforce in terms of generations, but what impact has the millennial and gen Z generations had on recognition and strategies? Because we know that they’re starting to maybe push the needle on a lot of things within an organization. So how have you seen them impact? Daniel Kasper:   Yeah, what we’ve seen is what has been successful in the past isn’t anymore. So its really the need to adapt and evolve your recognition strategy is what is being successful now. Some of the things that those generations are are kind of pushing the boundaries on, and I think in a healthy way is they’re looking for intentional recognition. They want to see how their work is connected to the mission and vision of the organization. Not just a blanket, thank you, but what impact do I have on the organization? So that’s something that’s really challenging the boundaries of, Hey, how do we do this better and how can our recognition be more meaningful? I think from my perspective and from being in this space for several years, we’re learning to see that it’s less about like a points-based system or currencies. And more about this meaningful recognition. Employees Want to Feel Seen and Valued Daniel Kasper:   So it’s about saying thank you. These generations aren’t really caring about a point that’s going to sit in the ether system for a couple of years. They just want their team to see the work that they’re doing and feel valued. So that’s some of the more recent trends. Actually, even in 2019, we’re seeing a significant shift. They’re more team-centric, and these generations are looking to pay it forward. So let’s say, Hey Jenn, you did a great job for this podcast. Here’s a, here’s recognition. Well, there was a bunch of other people like Christian sitting in the room, too, that also helped you out. So they want to be able to build into a platform and pay it forward and say, Hey, this was thanks. But Christian helped me out. So there are some of those concepts I think are very interesting to see. And then they want it to be shareable on social media and that ties into the experiences. Or that meaningful recognition that they got from their boss. They want to add it to their personal brand. And this can also be beneficial for employers because it’s going to be tagged to their company and who doesn’t want to work for a company that allows, you know, Sarah to go skydiving on the weekend. Jenn DeWall:   Right? Well, and you see a lot of lot more companies doing hashtag life at let’s say Crestcom or life at Wishlist Rewards. There is so much of a branding opportunity for employers to show people how they treat their people. No, it’s not necessarily, I would say off-putting to give people that opportunity to advertise for you. It’s a great way to show that you care about your people, right? It’s not just fake press. You’re actually putting your money where your mouth is, and you’re giving people these opportunities to grow and have those experiences. And I do love that. You know, millennials really do. They want those experiences, and they want the team. And I love that you call that crushing because maybe to now is a perfect time to say that in every podcast there is a man named Christian sitting in the room with me and he does do a lot, right? Jenn DeWall:   And it is easy to always acknowledge either the loudest voice or the person that you see. But really there are always people behind the scenes that there’s no way the quality of something could be even as good as it could ever be without that individual. And it’s important for us to recognize that we have to see the people that are behind the scenes, whether or not in Christian’s case they want to be seen. So for our listeners, we have Christian in the room, feeling really uncomfortable right now, which is totally fine for me. But not fine for him. No, but I mean, I do like that. I think that millennials and Gen Z have also said that, you know, what does $100 mean to me today? Because I would rather have you give me an opportunity to have that experience of spending that $100 instead of just giving me $100, and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s the impact. Why Do Companies Need a Rewards and Recognition Strategy? Jenn DeWall:   Like wow, look what they did for me. How did you know it’s a great thing, and it does bond you with your company because you do feel seen by them. I love what you guys are doing. I think it’s so important to the success, the mental wellbeing of people in the workplace because mental health is important, and rewards and recognitions are great ways to overcome that and help people know that you really do produce value. And I like the way that you’re talking about how, you know, they want to know, or millennials want to be able to connect and have more meaning. Well, they just want to know the big picture, and that’s something in the rewards and recognition space that I think companies can do better at. You can do better at being more transparent and giving, even though it might seem like it takes a little bit of time, explaining more to help people buy into your mission and truly understand why they’re a value to your organization. So I’m going to go on to my next question. What are the benefits of investing in a rewards and recognition strategy? Like what are the benefits to an organization? Why do it? Because weirdly, there are still some that don’t do it. So why, what would you say to those people? Why should you have a rewards and recognition strategy? Daniel Kasper:   To me and to really all successful companies, you should be thinking that people are your biggest asset period. And that goes across the board. You could have the best business idea in the entire world, but I promise you, you will not find longterm success if you don’t value your people. And that is super important, and I’m so excited that the business world is starting to catch onto this and it. And so it’s fun to see that people and as people software is really catching on and actually people investing in that. Before, it was kind of this really nice to have. But now especially with the unemployment rate being low as has been in quite some time under 4% if you look at locally in Colorado, it’s 2.8% super low, right? So you want to attract and retain those excellent people because, again, your team is what is going to build your company. So these types of strategies, some kind of recognition reward strategy is, is essentially table stakes for me at this point, it’s a need to have. However, not all strategies and all solutions are created equal. In this case, I would be looking for solutions that are not offered that automation, which we talked about earlier. There’s so much technology out there and make sure your HR software does that too. Jenn DeWall:   Yeah. How can you make it easier? That is one of the challenges is you might know that you’ve accrued points, but if you don’t know how to use them or they don’t even have the right offerings, why does it matter? I mean, am I getting this right? Am I saying this right? Automate Your Recognition Program Daniel Kasper:   So there’s, there are multiple ways that you can automate this. One of which is just integrating into your HR software, which is something that is super important. You have all this data that’s already kept up in your HR software. You should be looking for solutions that plug into those. And it can automatically trigger events on the rewards side for let’s say work anniversaries or birthdays or some kind of major reoccurring event. And then also you need the performance side too because you have those automated events you want to trigger for whether it be the company, you know, turning 20 years old, but there was the performance side too. So having kind of a both in tandem I think is super important to the automation part. Jenn DeWall:   Yes. I wanted to ask this going back to the experiences, but I think we might get through that. No, we won’t. What, can you tell me a little bit more about the experiences that Wishlist Rewards has? Because the Thailand trip sounds really appealing to me, and I think other people would want to hear the type of rewards and recognition that you offer if a company should choose to, you know, inquire and have Wishlist Rewards. Reward Employees with “Bucket List” Options Daniel Kasper:   Yeah. So on the rewards side of the house, we have about 3,500 different local experiences. So for that, think your brewery tours, your skydiving trips, think renting a Ferrari and driving that around the track. We also have access to about 10 million different live events. So that’s your sporting events, that’s your theater, that’s your concerts. We have access to about 150,000 global hotels, so it can help you with the staycation, or if you’re going to, you’re on a trip. And then we also have like a travel program, and this is actually our fastest-growing product line. Companies we’re seeing want to invest more for milestone anniversaries, that five-year, that tenure, they’re getting away from the luggage and now getting to trips. So it’s something we facilitate and how we have an in house concierge team that helps book these, some of these bucket list trips. So we’ve had people go to Thailand, we’ve had people climb Kilimanjaro we’ve had people go to Iceland, and you know, climb a volcano. So it’s just a, it’s kind of a gambit of, of things that you can do and check off your bucket list because of your company. Jenn DeWall:   Wow. All because of your company. So I could be there for five years, and if my company had it, then I could maybe go to Thailand. I wanted to take a sabbatical and go to Thailand. I mean, who doesn’t? I definitely have friends that, whose organizations have offered a sabbatical, but I feel like that is still something that’s few and far between. That’s a luxury if you work for a company that does that, but so nice that you’re able to make that accessible to more people because we know, and I know from working a lot with millennials, those experiences are what matters most, right? We know, and as a millennial myself, we know that there are different economic triggers that came in. There are different events throughout history that have made us really focus on what we’re grateful for and living and getting the most out of our lives while we’re young, while we can. And I think that you know, employers are kind of being, let’s say, nudged to start to accommodate that desire because again, that plaque on the wall is just not going to do it. And yes, they’re proud of their tenure there, but the plaque isn’t necessarily meaningful to them in the same way that a trip would be in the memories and how much that deepens and strengthen, strengthens your relationship with your organization. Creating Your Brand Story Through Employee Recognition Daniel Kasper:   Yeah, you’re exactly right. And that’s some of the cool things too from the employer standpoint is yes, you’re investing in this trip, but it’s a story. You’re creating a story. And we talked about things that have been had been core to the human condition is storytelling, right? So if you’re going on these trips, you’re going to be taking on social, it’s going to be a part of who you are and being able to bring that back and then you’re telling the story. Like, I was able to do something on my bucket list because, you know, working for this company. Now that is just something we’re sharing. And so you’re able to build a brand around the storytelling, and it’s something that people want to do. I mean, what I, what I really appreciate these new generations is their value on time. To me, it’s the most valuable resource in the entire world because you have a set amount of time. And so they’re like, yeah, I can have $100, or I could go do X, Y, Z. And so these solutions now that are coming to market, that are centered around creating those stories and how to share that together and creating a community of these shared stories are, it’s fun to see the traction of getting Different Rewards Work for Different People Jenn DeWall:   Yes, I love that it’s a bucket list, right? I mean, maybe if I earned skydiving, then I would try it, but I think someone would need to drag me up to a plane and actually be, have the courage to be able to do it. But how do people, in your opinion, like to be recognized? Daniel Kasper:   I’m going to give you a lawyer’s answer, and it depends. Jenn DeWall:   Oh, that was really helpful. Daniel Kasper:   Yeah. Please write that one down to everyone. Now, I mean, there’s a couple of things I think are important, but there are, of course, things that need to be catered to individuals. I think the important components to this are, are that our recognition is timely. So it’s not something that’s done two weeks later. It’s Hey, if you did a good job today, get that out today. Take the 30 seconds. And saying that, take that 30 seconds. It should also be simple. So whatever system or platform that you’re using to be able to send out recognition and needs to be part of the culture, and it needs to be simple. So even though you’re doing all these things in your daily life, you can take that 30 seconds to have a timely recognition. And I think what is also very important to successful organizations and how they’re doing recognition is showing the impact. So it’s not just thank you, it’s thank you for doing X, it achieved Y and here’s the impact it had on the business. Here’s how it affected other teams. So get a little more granular. Take that extra time to be able to show that impact that a person has on the organization, Jenn DeWall:   Build-in what it means. You know, how people truly see just because you’re saying thank you, you did a really good job on that project doesn’t land as much as thank you, Dan, for taking time to be diligent. Do this research and prepare for this so we could deliver a great presentation to close the sale with this client. You know, it’s, yeah, provide a little bit more of feedback when you’re giving recognition. So people can really truly envision themselves as the younger they are, the less likely that they may have the ability to see the big picture to see what you’re seeing. So it’s another great way that you can help them develop their strategic thinking skills by showing that even though they may not think their job has a huge impact, that it actually really does to the company’s success and the overall strategies that they want to achieve. Connecting to Something Bigger than You Daniel Kasper:   That’s exactly what I mean. I think so frequently working in a business, even myself, you get sucked into your work, and you don’t see kind of the higher picture and what you’re working on, even though it may seem mundane, how it’s connected. So having, you know, what could be, even at the specialist level or some entry-level what they’re working on changes the business. And so being able to connect that to something larger, especially with the new generations and their trends we’re seeing and what drives people and motivates people that’s really having an impact in the engagement of, of company, the culture of a company and just overall successful teams. Jenn DeWall:   Right? I love it. It’s, you know, it’s recognition for all levels. And I just, I mean, I’m kind of obsessed with talking about the big picture because it really is one of those soft skills that aren’t well developed, but I think recognition is a great way to help people develop that skill. Especially if they’re new to your workforce in those entry-level specialist roles. What are the challenges organizations face in implementing rewards and recognition strategies? Daniel Kasper:   You know, there’s still a lot of companies that don’t feel this is a need. So I think that’s the first step and I think that’s drastically changing. Jenn DeWall:   Why don’t they think it’s a need? What’s the ROI for Employee Recognition? Daniel Kasper:   To me, it comes down to, I know it’s ROI, right? It’s what is the ROI, what is the ROI? And we can talk about ROI. I mean, there are numerous data points that I can pull it and talk about it’s going to show ROI and rewards engagement strategies. However, there are also people, right? And people aren’t this kind of binary component. There are so many different kinds of fuels and inputs that equal outputs. And so why I can talk about correlations between rewards and recognition strategies, then being successful and how it impacts your people. There’s still, so this gray component because is it an exact match? Maybe not, or maybe it is. So I think that there’s just the human element that makes it this piece of kind of the hard ROI that you see in financials or data. It’s a little bit different, or it’s a little bit harder to get to. Jenn DeWall:   Yeah, it’s harder to calculate, like in some respects, you know, it’s, we complicated, I think. I think we complicate rewards and recognition at work, and we ignore it. But I bet the same people that ignore it and don’t think that it’s a value in an organization are probably the same people that are using a rewards and recognition strategy to get desired behavior from their children. Daniel Kasper:   I would argue the same thing. Jenn DeWall:   But they see no value for this here. If you’re doing it -and it’s not to say to treat your employees like your children, but to remember that you know, there’s a way that you can achieve the behavior that you want and rewards and recognition is a great way to do it. Why do you think companies fail at it? Daniel Kasper:   I don’t think they, well, a couple of reasons. One, they try to keep it in house, I think for, for a long time and then then it becomes because it is time-consuming to run a meaningful rewards recognition strategy, it kind of falls to the wayside. So there is a time and place to keep it in-house. I get that. You know, I come from a startup world as well. But at some point just because of the gravity of it and if you value your team and you want to to help take them to the next level, invest in something that’s going to help you automate that. Because I think otherwise it’ll fall to the wayside. Get Help From the Experts Jenn DeWall:   Why would you want to, if that’s not your expertise, give it to the experts and let them, you know, show you what is on-trend, all the data and research and show them? I just love that it’s integrated into HR software. Because again, I cannot tell you how many rewards I never used, because I had to figure out a new password to try and figure out how I could find them. So I love that there’s that just ease of accessibility piece that’s in there. And I know I’m jumping all around here, so I’m so sorry. Daniel Kasper:   Another thing is I think you should look for it outside of automation too, is like, yeah, it takes a lot of time, but you’re going to want to have like the power of choice, which we talked about, which is hard to offer if you’re doing it in house. You’re going to want some reporting around it. Again, we talked about ROI and data. There’s a lot of things we can do with rewards and recognitions and data now. So you’re gonna want that. You’re gonna want some alignment to values, and then you’re gonna want some psychology. So it’s a fun product built in that people get kind of that release of dopamine like they do on Instagram when they get likes, built into the software. So there are numerous components. If you want a meaningful strategy, yes, there’s a time and place to do it inside. But I think once you get to a place where you really want to take it to the next level, I would look to other solutions out there. Jenn DeWall:   Yeah. Which is what I would want. I guarantee that the choices are just so much more limited, or they just don’t. I feel like they’re not on-trend. They’re what you might’ve appreciated, you know, five years ago, but not necessarily what you would appreciate today. Or maybe you picked it aerobed last year, and you don’t need another aero bed. Because I guess that is one of the things that I picked from a rewards program. When Employee Rewards Go Wrong Daniel Kasper:   That’s an interesting component too. I mean, we’re looking at this concept of rewards and recognition, and a lot of the challenges are the failures that we see is not knowing your team. And so we hear of the situation where the hearing impaired person gets an iPod. Or that you hear of the person that you know recently gave up drinking for the month and now they get the bottle of wine. So there’s like multiple components of this that are like, Oh, they just kind of leave you shuddering and it’s something that, you know, do reverse things in terms of rewards and recognition. So it’s, it’s something to look into and just be aware. Know your people or offer some choices. So you know, they can select something different. Jenn DeWall:   And then you’re able to give something that’s appropriate. So if someone is not able to, like if they took the month off, they were abstaining from something that you’re not looking like you’re so disconnected that you’re giving them a reward that’s untimely or will never be used. And I think that the question of what motivates you is something that not a lot of people get asked and they, you know, I think leaders just don’t necessarily prioritize that as a question that you need to ask. Like, Hey Dan, like what motivates you to do a good job? Because oftentimes we think that it’s something that is, everyone wants the same. There is one, you know, one size fits all approach, and maybe they want to be recognized publicly with a card. Right? That’s honestly one of the ways that I think about it. Jenn DeWall:   They’re like, well, either they want to do it publicly or they want to do it privately, but they don’t recognize that everyone actually has unique ways of being motivated. We are so different from human beings. So the fact that we forget that is interesting, but I know I do it too. But yeah, absolutely like that. Just that diversity. Like why don’t people ask that question, or why do you think people struggle with understanding what motivates someone? Because I think that’s why Wishlist Rewards is so great because you do give a choice to the employee. So the employer doesn’t have to try and play the guessing game. But why do you think people don’t ask that question? Make What’s Important to Your Team Important to You Daniel Kasper:   I just think it comes back to like just general leadership principles. To me, it’s one of the- if the first thing is if I’m looking to build a team is I look to make what’s important to my team important to me. It’s such a foundational component because it shows, Hey, what’s what you’re working on, and your time is also equally important to me. And that automatically starts building that relationship. And so again, if you look back to the concept of, Hey, these teams are so important to your business, take some time to get to know your people because that relationship is only going to help them bring another level of passion, other ingenuity, that creative skills are going to be more approachable. So it’s going to have direct impacts on your business on just to ask them questions about seriously, and it doesn’t have to be, Hey, when is this deliverable? Its how are you doing? What are you spending your time on these days? What can I help with? Are there any struggles that I can help remove for you? Jenn DeWall:   Right, absolutely. Just checking in to see how it’s going, like, and even the simple questions of how was your drive-in? How was your weekend? Did you enjoy your lunch? What are you doing? Are you doing anything fun for like fun this weekend? Getting to know your people. I love, or you can tell, I’m kind of obsessed with talking about this. It’s just something that I think is super important to people and connecting with their culture, with their, with what you want them to do with their strategy. What is your favorite trip or experience that you offer or option that you offer? I know I’m putting you on the spot with that one. Yeah. Daniel Kasper:   I’m an adrenaline guy. So I really, I had the opportunity to drive a Ferrari at one point. So that one of my favorite things is to get a few laps than on a Ferrari F430. Jenn DeWall:   How fast did you go? Daniel Kasper:   Not as fast as I’d liked. Jenn DeWall:   Were you afraid? Daniel Kasper:   No, I had a guy sitting shotgun with me who had his hand on the emergency brake – ready to pull. Not sure if he didn’t trust my driving, or – Jenn DeWall:   What could you have done for rewards and recognition strategies and build trust in that situation? Ha! How Can Companies Do Better? Jenn DeWall:   What do you think that people could do better in terms of rewards and recognition? Even at the moment? I know we’re talking about like Wishlist Rewards is great. Like is this a, is Wishlist Rewards a point-based system? Is it a one and done system? I know it’s not actually points, as you said that it wasn’t before, but how does it actually work? Like if someone was going to embed this program and actually have it, how do you work? Daniel Kasper:   We have a couple of different programs. We have a reward side, which is that you can send out rewards for performance space, or we can integrate it into your HR software and automatically trigger gifts based upon company objectives or birthdays or anniversaries, whatever that may be. So that’s on the reward side of the house. We automate the kind of the reoccurring, and then we have spot gifting portals where managers or people can come jump in and reward for meeting certain goals or the recognition side of the house. We actually got away from points, and we did a bunch of research on across verticals, and we found like I mentioned earlier, it’s, it’s a currency that is sitting in the ether not being used. And these new demographics that are becoming the predominant demographic in the workforce, the millennials and Gen Z, they want to have that thank you. Daniel Kasper:   Not just because it’s a currency because it means something. They want to have that connection to the impact. They want to be able to pay it forward. And so that’s how we crafted our recognition software. Its based around saying thank you. It’s based around kind of doing some cool things with reporting. So we have like this, this blast feature where you can actually see heat maps of if you were to pay it forward to Christian. You can see kind of a heat map of your organization and how one job actually impacted your organization. That’s a pretty cool feature. Jenn DeWall:   Whoa. So if you were a manager or an executive leader that may not be as connected to your organizational pulse, could they have access to that? Daniel Kasper:   You could, yeah, you could. And I recommend it because it’s an easy way for executives to spend, you know, spend 20 minutes every week, jump in. You can see the good work in your organization, you can respond directly to that person. And it’s done in an easy, easy way. So there are really cool things that we’re doing with reporting. You can tag it to social. We’re making it fun. You can add gifs; you can add photos, you can tag a video when you’re going whitewater rafting. And then you can also have your employer if they’d like to share that on their social. So we’re building just kind of an ecosystem of memories and stories that employers and employees are creating together. Jenn DeWall:   Do you have a favorite story that you’ve seen play out that you can share? Daniel Kasper:   So recently, we’ve had a couple get engaged on a Wishlist experience. They did a horseback activity. It was here in Colorado. It was up in Estes Park. Jenn DeWall:   I just went horseback riding there a month ago! Daniel Kasper:   So yeah, we had a couple get engaged, and they sent this photo, and it was all facilitated on the Wishlist experience. So it was really cool to see how yeah, we’re creating memories but also the impact we’re having on these people’s lives. Jenn DeWall:   Holy cow. That is an amazing way that- because in what other universe would you actually see an employer be connected to an engagement story, right. I mean, my employer was definitely not involved in my engagement nor my wedding, but they did give me a really nice wedding shower. But it, you know, it wasn’t, there was just such an interesting thing to me to know that there is a way that you get to break down those silos between, you know, work and being a human being outside of work. That you’re able to see someone as an individual. My gosh. Do you have more stories? I love these stories. Give me one more. I’ll just ask for one more. As you’re racking your brain, and I’m so sorry for not asking you for this ahead of time. Use Rewards to Show you Really Care About Your Employees Daniel Kasper:   We had a family, this is a sad story, but it turns out with a happy ending, they lost some of their house in a fire recently, and they had planned – so they had saved up funds that they had planned to use on this Disney World trip. And had to put back into their house, the insurance claim and etc. And so their employer sent them a Wishlist, and we coordinated a full end to end trip to Disney World with their whole family. We got them there. We gave them, you know, passes, we gave them dinner. They are able to do Epcot Center as well. So they did the full thing, and we were able to facilitate that from their employer. So it’s a cool story. Again, it’s about these real-life events that are happening right in front of our eyes because of a place where that wouldn’t traditionally happen. Because it was, you know, your, your plaques and your trophies. Now we’re telling you stories. Now we’re a part of life events. Jenn DeWall:   Oh my gosh. I, that was the first time I think of teared up today. What a great gift to give someone. Especially, you know, you bring up another time. It’s not always just using rewards and recognition to validate good behavior at work. It’s using rewards and recognition to see if there are ways that you can help your employees when they’re in times of need. How can you support them? Because if you truly have that culture where your people are first, your people are family and Wishlist, I mean it just sounds like there’s that opportunity to really treat them like family. Daniel Kasper:   It is. And that goes back to you just making what’s important to them, important to you. And the ROI you see if you invest in what’s important to them, they’re going to have your back and the loyalty that will be created for your company and for your team. I promise you that as ROI. Rewards that Appeal to Millennials Jenn DeWall:   Yeah. Well as, I mean, we could go in and talk about this as a millennial. There’s so much of what a millennial wants in the workforce is to be seen and to have meaningful work to feel connected to their work. And the more that you can reinforce that, the more likely they are to stay. So many people say, Oh, millennials are just job jumpers. Well, they leave when they stop being rewarded. They leave when they are not challenged. And rewards and recognition are great ways to start challenging people to take on different things. So if you want them to stay and sure that they have those opportunities for growth and reinforce it with some rewards and recognition that are meaningful to them. It’s not that it’s, we complicate it so much by just calling millennials out like they just have different needs. They have different desires just because they were shaped, and they were born in a different time, and that’s okay. They just have different desires. Daniel Kasper:   I totally agree. And we’re looking at the things that they’re wanting. I actually respect, you know, they get the demographic, it’s kind of a talked down to frequently. But they’re looking to have an impact, which I respect. You’re looking to kind of pay it forward and show, Hey, it’s not me. But if they have the team concept, which I respect, they’re able to adapt to global environments, and they respect people that think differently than themselves. I respect that. I mean I could keep going just this, while the demographic does get talked down to frequently or at least questioned a lot, I think a lot of what they’re challenging is really putting the concept from, you know, kind of big organizations to people and even if you are at a big organization, your center, and your heart should be around your people because that’s how you will find success. What’s Your Leadership Habit for Success? Jenn DeWall:   Right! That’s the only way. I mean, I know that that’s one of my passions for why I do leadership is because the way that you can make an organization better, a community better, a family, better, you know, insert whatever I wanted to say, is by developing an individual and helping them be a better leader, whether that’s bringing in love or bringing in the ability to see others, that they have feelings, right? They’re not just a product, or a means to an end, that there’s a person behind that and it’s, it’s pretty powerful. Dan, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation, but I have one last question that we wrap up every single podcast interview with. And that is what is your leadership habit for success? Daniel Kasper:   Of course, you know, we mentioned at the beginning I was formed in special operations community in a place where literally teams meant life or death. And that’s something I’m bringing forward with me today. I will never leave that. My team is my focus. So even being the CEO, if you think about the traditional hierarchy, you have the pyramid, and the CEO is at the top and the specialist at the bottom. My vision is completely the opposite. And I draw it for every employee that starts at Wishlist. I draw it upside down because my role is to work for my employees. That is my job, to remove roadblocks, to help them do the best work of their life at Wishlist. And that is my job. And again, it starts with making what’s important to them important to me. So to me, it’s around people. It’s around servant leadership, and it’s about helping your team to want to and in inspiring them to want to create lasting change themselves. Jenn DeWall:   Right? Because everyone, you know, as much as people want to be seen, I truly believe that everyone actually wants to feel like they’re adding value to something. We want to connect our worth to know that, yeah, I made an impact on my employer, to my family, to my friends. We all want that. That’s -to be human. And I sometimes think, again, going back to it, we complicate things for rewards and recognition are just a great way to, I think for the resistors just to get them- the resistors of feelings may be- to get them familiar with being like, okay, like you did a great job. I want to reward that. And the people that know that experiences matter, you know, rewards and recognition are just a great way to solidify that. Personalize it, find the best ones at work. But I love that you give, again going back to it, you’re customizing it in a way that makes it easier for employers to determine what motivates them because they have the choice or employees to determine what, determine what motivates them because they have the choice for what they want. Any last things that we didn’t cover that you would want to share with our listeners? I mean, I know that you operate right now in the US, but you are planning on a global expansion. So to all of our listeners out there, Wishlist rewards will be in your neck of the woods sometime soon just to keep checking on their website. But I know that’s one of your plans, right? Daniel Kasper:   We are, yeah. We’ll be expanding internationally, predominantly the UK and EU, within the next year. And then my ask is really just taking some time and go out of your day to put your people first. First, ask them questions, connect to them. Really show them that you’re there for them. Because I promise you what you’ll see as a return is exponentially greater than, you know, the 30 seconds it took. Rewards and recognition. Again, what we’re seeing are table stakes. I recommend finding a solution that works for your company, whoever that may be, have a few key components in there and then use it. Because again, building a team is going to be so crucial to your organization’s success. Jenn DeWall:   And I’ll leave the final note. If you do not have a rewards and recognition strategy, you are likely not winning the talent game. Because that is one of the tools that you can use to retain your people because you’re showing them that you value them. Dan, thank you so much for coming in. It was great to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much. Daniel Kasper:   It was a pleasure, Jenn. thank you so much. Thank you for listening to today’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast with Wishlist Reward CEO, Daniel Kasper. To find out more about wishlist rewards and how you can offer more recognition strategies, head over to enjoywishlist.com or find the location in our show notes where you can request a demo for the wishlist software and learn more about how they’re flipping the script on employee rewards and recognition. If you liked today’s episode, please share it with your friends and family, and don’t forget to rate and review us on your favorite podcast streaming service. The post Episode 20: Meaningful Employee Recognition with Wishlist Rewards CEO, Daniel Kasper appeared first on Crestcom International.

In this episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, we continue our newest minisode series, Work Fails. We’ve all had experiences when things did not go as planned in the workplace, but people don’t talk about it. Great leaders know that failure is a part of life, and eventual success depends on how we handle the situations and learn from them. So we decided to talk to people about real-life examples of when things didn’t go quite right, how they felt it, and what they learned from the experience. Today we are talking to Merit Kahn, founder of Merit-Based Business and author of Myth Shift: Challenging The Truths That Sabotage Success. Merit is also the creator of The Merit Method: Sales Mastery for Life program. Listen in for Merit’s, fails, and learn how she recovered- so you can too.   Full Transcript Below:   Jenn Dewall:  Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and I am interviewing Merit Kahn. Today, we are welcoming her as a guest for our minisode on work fails because we want to be sure to share with everyone that failure is a commonality, and it’s something that you cannot escape. It’s not a matter of whether you’re going to fail, but it’s about how you’re going to deal with it. And Merit is actually one of my favorite people to interview because she has shared with us that she actually has not failed in 25 years. We’re just kidding. We’re kidding. But you know, sometimes that’s kind of the way that people come on, right? They pretend that they haven’t had a failure or I can’t believe you’ve done that. Like I have never made a failure. Whereas failure is a part of life. No one’s escaping without failing in some way. And as a matter of fact, if they won’t admit that they’re failing, they’re failing by not having the self-awareness that they’re failing. Merit Kahn: That is true. But I am going to tell you an old work fail story that I tell others because it actually plays into exactly what you just said. And it’s something that I learned a great lesson from, and it’s helped me throughout my career. This was, this goes back to when I was working in radio advertising sales, and I was brand new. It was my friend who was working in a big downtown Chicago radio station. Jenn Dewall: Oh my gosh, so exciting! Merit Kahn: JMK, we play the oldies. It was! I was over the moon. I was really young, and I’m super excited, and I really wanted people to think that I knew what I was doing. So there was a salesperson who left, and I got their account, and it was my first advertising agency- that’s a big deal to have an advertising agency. Because then they would just, you know, call you and say, can I book this time on the radio station? Merit Kahn: So it was very little sales effort. So the agency called and said I’m checking available times for like a River Boat Casino and I’m, so I’m checking avails over the next 30 days. And I checked what was available on the radio station, terms of the commercial time that we could sell. And I wrote up an order for $30,000, and I faxed it. So this is a long time ago. I faxed it and the old fashioned machine to my client, and I had a note, thanks for the order. Now, by the time the fax got to my client, I had already done the victory lap around the office. Jenn Dewall: You’re like look at this! I closed it! Merit Kahn: Woo. Right. And I’m the general manager who is not a man known for his personal warmth. He comes out of his office all the way down the hall to the sales pit. Hi-fives, me, hugs me. Back in those days, you could hug people in the office and, and we are just celebrating. Like, they’re ringing the bell. And it was, and then my phone rang, and my agency client said, I’m sorry, I’m confused. Why did you send thanks for the order? I was checking avails, and I thought, so you weren’t checking to see how much time you could buy, and you wanted to buy all of the available time? And she said, no, no, no. I was just seeing what you had available. And then I was going to select the time that I want. And I learned a very important lesson that instead of acting as if I knew what that meant, I should have asked as if I really wanted to understand a term I didn’t know. Merit Kahn: So I had to hang up the phone with her, walk through the walk of shame back to my General Manager’s, and then I go, “So Harvey you remember that $30,000 order I just put in like eight minutes ago?” He’s like, “yeah, rockstar salesperson, what can I do for you?” And I’m like, “yeah, that’s not gonna happen.” Like, that’s not going to go through. And he’s like, “well, what happened?” And I, yeah, that was a very expensive, difficult failure to overcome. I am pretty sure I felt sick for the rest of the afternoon. I couldn’t go into the office the next day. But you know, I think to your point, you always learn something from your failures. I sure have, I have multiple stories. I could tell you about more recent failures, but that one I learned that day in a big, big way. And now I share with everybody- never ever act as if you are the success you want to be. If there’s something you don’t know about it, ask as if you really want to understand everything you need to know about the problem you’re trying to solve. Jenn Dewall:  Gosh, I feel like so much of that also comes down to, you know, assumptions. And that we talked about this and the other podcast episode, the optimism, wanting to see things in this kind of grandiose, positive rose-colored glasses way. And that’s totally natural, but sometimes it can lead us down the wrong path to making assumptions, which are not necessarily valid data points. Exactly. How did you recover from that? Because I know that to be able to go from high-fiving your GM to say, yeah, I got that sale to then walking into Harvey’s office and saying, I didn’t do that. That must have been hard. Merit Kahn: It was really hard. Mostly because I had built up this identity. Like, I really, I was young and enthusiastic, and I really wanted to be liked, and I wanted to be respected, and I wanted to do a good job. And I think, I don’t remember exactly all the details, but I know I set up a meeting, I went into the office the next morning early, and I sat outside of Harvey’s office, the General Manager, and I sat down with him, and I just said, this is what I learned. I won’t do that again, and here’s what you can count on me for in the future. Like I won’t make that assumption. And, and obviously, I have a lot more to learn about some of the terms that an agency might use that I wasn’t prepared for because all the other business I had done was direct. Merit Kahn: Like I would go to the mom and pop shop that wanted to get people in their store, and I would tell them about radio advertising, but I wasn’t dealing with a more sophisticated buyer. And so I asked him for better training, and I asked him if I could shadow people who had worked with agencies more. So I think what I had going for me, and that experience was I wasn’t afraid. I mean, I ate crow. I was like, I messed up. My bad. And here’s what I think I need to develop myself further, so I don’t make that kind of mistake again. I will make other mistakes, that’s guaranteed, but I don’t want to make that one again. So I have some gaps in my learning, and I just took responsibility for it. I think that’s, you know, the people that recover from any work fail are the ones that are going to as quickly as possible take responsibility for their role in that failure. And what can they learn and move on? Jenn Dewall: Well, and I think that it’s- you went a step beyond responsibility because you took responsibility for it. But it sounds like you also thought, what are some other things that I can learn to set myself up for success in the future, so I don’t make this mistake again. Or what else did I not realize that I didn’t know that would have been helpful in that instance. And so you went, you went above and beyond just assuming responsibility. You said, okay, here are the ways that I want to develop, to even make a greater impact for the organization. And that’s a big deal because I think sometimes it’s easy to live in your shame of it and you can take responsibility, but then secretly be shaming yourself and kind of kicking yourself for maybe making that mistake. And I don’t think everyone crosses over to say, throw themselves into learning. Merit Kahn: Well, yeah, I actually hadn’t thought about it until you said it like that. But I think because I was new and in the very early stages of my career, it might’ve been easier for me at that stage too, to acknowledge that I had a lot to learn. I think if that situation had happened and I had been at the radio station for a year or two years, and I legitimately should have known better. And I should have known what that term is, and it probably would have been a lot harder to admit that I didn’t have it all figured out. So I wonder, you know if I would’ve had that same opportunity to take full responsibility had I not recognized that I was in a learning phase. But I think that that’s one of my favorite books, business books, life books on the planet is Carol Dweck’s book, Mindset. Merit Kahn: And she talks about the distinction between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset. And I think, you know, like you said, I mean, we’re all going to have work fails, and anybody who tells you otherwise is completely lying to you and themselves. I think something I don’t know, I probably just had it young. And I probably, my parents beat it into me or something that I kind of have a mindset of, you know, I may not be the best at something, and immediately I might make mistakes, but I believe in my ability to figure it out. You know, I, and I think that has helped me in a lot of situations, kind of be okay with the fact that I’m not going to be excellent at something right away. Jenn Dewall: Yeah. You have to give yourself permission to just be a beginner. Merit Kahn: Yes. That beginner mindset. Jenn Dewall: Yeah. And it’s such a common thing. I think as we get older, we just assume that we should know everything. We put this pressure to have the answers, to know what you’re supposed to do when and where. And that’s when I think we stop learning because we think that we’ve already had the mastery, right. And it’s actually the opposite. That learning and growth are never done. And if you stop in a business sense, you can consider your business done because you’ll be out-performed. Merit Kahn: Yeah – things around you change. I mean, you know, I just look at my personal life, right? My personal life has changed. And after 20 years of being in a marriage, like all of a sudden, I’m dating again. Like that’s weird. And I had to acknowledge that yeah, I knew how to date when I was 25, but I am not 25, and I had to relearn all that. And it’s different now. Back, you know, when I was dating the first time around you just met a guy like at Blockbuster, you know? Jenn Dewall: People are like what is Blockbuster, and how do we use that? Merit Kahn: This place where we look at movie titles on a box and then take it home and hoped it was rewound! And yes it was, Jenn Dewall: You know, it’s, it’s reminding ourselves like we have to crawl before we can walk and there is nothing wrong with learning how to crawl. Merit Kahn: Exactly. Exactly. Jenn Dewall: Thank you so much for sharing your work fails. I just, I love talking to you! Thank you so much. Merit Kahnl: Thanks, Jenn. Thank you for listening to today’s Work Fails Minisode. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with your friends and family, and don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. If you want to learn more about Merit, head on over to meritkahn.com or find it in our show notes there. You can find out more about Merit’s two-day sales intensives and find valuable resources to elevate your sales success. The post Minisode 3: Work Fails with Special Guest Merit Kahn appeared first on Crestcom International.

Meet Tamara Ghandour, Everyday Innovator In this episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn DeWall sits down with author, speaker and founder and president of Launch Street, Tamara Ghandour. Tamara shares her insight as an innovation expert on the four traps of certainty that leaders and organizations fall into that jeopardize innovation efforts. I’ve found a lot of value in Tamara’s episode and I hope that you do too. Jenn DeWall:                     Hi, everyone, and thank you so much for tuning into today’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast. It’s Jenn DeWall, and today I am so excited to introduce you to innovation thought leader, the creator of the IQE assessment and the President and Founder of LaunchStreet, Tamara Ghandour. Tamara, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s so great to have you! I just like love everything about you, and I’m so excited for our interview. Tamara Ghandour:           Well, thank you for having me, and we have so much to talk about. I just don’t know where to start because it’s going to be so good! Jenn DeWall:                     I know! We have to talk, we have to go to the basics- because I’ve gotten to know a lot about you and what you do, but could you just tell us a little bit about what you do, what LaunchStreet is and how you play in the innovation space for those that may not have heard of you. Tamara Ghandour:           Yeah, yeah. I love how you said that- play in the innovation space, too. So my company LaunchStreet, what we do is we help individuals and teams gain a competitive advantage through the power of innovation. And what we really do is the human side of innovation. We, we’d like to think of it as we unlock the “i” in innovation. So you can think about innovation in the sense of what’s the process you use or what’s the culture we want to create. But all of that is really built on the foundation of how do you or individuals, how do your teams, how do they innovate as humans? How do we bring that to the forefront? Because the reality is we can invest in all the processes and tools and flavor of the month technology we want. But if our people aren’t being innovative, none of that actually works anyway. So companies who work with us, really come to us because they say, Hey, we know people are our best asset. So we want to get them to be more innovative both as individuals and then as high performing teams so that we can build the culture we’re looking for. So that’s, that’s ultimately what we do. And I have to say, Jenn, it’s so rewarding because we get to see transformations, not just at the company and bottom-line level. That’s super exciting. But where it starts, which is that the people inside the organization, Jenn DeWall:                     I think what’s so inspiring about what you do is you give people- the everyday person that may not be or even think of themselves as innovative- you give them the opportunity to identify as someone that is an innovator. And I think knowing the importance of innovation. It’s so important that we give people that power, and I love that you take it down to that human-level or you have the eye-level because it is so essential, and yeah, and everyone should be innovative. Discouraging Innovation Starts Early Tamara Ghandour:           Well, and I think, you know, we could go on and on about why innovation is so important if we want to. I mean, we, a lot of us, know that the times are changing. The competitive landscape is fiercer than ever before. The rate of change is faster than ever. The pressures are bigger, like all that is true. But at the end of the day, to win in this marketplace, the company has to be innovative across all the departments, right? All the people. And that means not just the cool people, but it means all of us. And I love the way you said that. We call them everyday innovators because that’s what we all are. We’re all innovators in some way. And I think for a lot of us, we just trained ourselves out of it over time. In fact. So there was a super cool study that I found that it’s so fascinating. So in schools, teachers, they ask them to rank what are the most important skills for your students. And of course, creativity was at the top. Then they ask them to rank their students on which ones were the most creative. Then they ask them to rank how much they liked those students. And sure enough, the kids that were ranked highest and creativity were ranked lowest in terms of teachers liking them. And don’t get me wrong, this is not about teachers being bad. If 30 kids, 35 kids in a classroom, they’re just trying to like manage to the test these days. That’s a system issue, which we can talk about another time. But what was fascinating to me is it’s because when you’re being innovative as a kid, you’re being disruptive. You’re not following the rules, you are thinking differently. You require different learning styles. So at a very early age, most of us are taught to fit within that little box and to not be innovative. There are consequences for being innovative. Yet it’s our greatest competitive advantage. So over years, and I hear it all the time, people go, Tamara, you know Jenn’s innovative, you know, with her cool outfits and stuff, but not me. Like I’m not the innovative one. I’m just in engineering, and I just do my job. But it’s because we’ve been trained over time to think that. But it’s actually all our research has actually shown that that’s not true at all. We all have it, and it’s our greatest competitive advantage, not just for performing at our peak. So that’s one part of it. But also for having a stronger voice in the world because when we innovate, that’s how we actually contribute. Jenn DeWall:                     Great. What a powerful way to look at it. I actually have never really gone back and thought about childhood, and that really how it had been stopped – You know, I never thought about how early you’re, whether you’re going to be innovative starts — and even coming down to liking those creative kids or disliking them. Because they are the ones that maybe are thinking a little differently or seeing things in a way that maybe you could try something differently. And how we don’t always like change or someone that’s going to go against the grain but, dang. So we kill innovation young! Designated Innovators Aren’t the Answer Tamara Ghandour:           Fast. And we do it in schools. And again, it’s not the teacher’s fault. It’s actually the system fault. We do it in universities, and then we do at work because we’re always looking for the right answer. We’re looking for the thing that will please the boss. Leadership accidentally -we can dig more into this- looks for one way of doing things, which is usually their way. Because that’s what they know. So we do all these things to actually sabotage our innovation efforts and not get it out of all the people. And here’s the thing that kind of blows my mind. So you know, oftentimes I’ll go into companies, and they’ll have a team of “innovators,” right? I know you can’t see me on a podcast, but I have my air quotes out, which I’m serious, my air quotes out, right? But like the special people who are designated to innovate. And the challenge with that, that I find is, so you’ve got five hundred five thousand five hundred thousand whatever new organization and you’re only asking six people to innovate. Like why wouldn’t you tap the five thousand, ten thousand whatever that you have access to who are doing the work every single day? And I’ll just share with you very quickly after a workshop that I did with this there’s actually a group of companies that came together. This woman came up to me and said, Hey, Tamara, I want to know what you think. I’m at a law firm. We just designated a committee of people to be innovators because, as an innovation committee, because we know we need to change, right? The way we’re doing things isn’t working anymore. And so their job is to go kind of assess the company where there’s opportunities to innovate and then report back to us so that we can change what we’re doing. What do you think about that? And I asked her, well before I answer that, what do you think about that? And Jenn, you could see her body language visibly change. She slumped over, and this is a very senior woman at this firm, and she said, actually, it makes me feel pretty miserable. It’s basically telling me that I don’t have any ideas even though I’m the one doing the work. She said it’s really demoralizing. I’ve actually been really frustrated going to work because I feel like, well, why should I wait for them? What about me? I have ideas too. So when we kind of lock innovation down to a couple people and not open it up to the rest of us, we’re not just kind of not tapping all the power that we have, but we’re. Also, there’s a side impact of demoralizing people without even meaning to do it. Jenn DeWall:                     Right, and you’re demoralizing the people that actually might share those nuggets that are so valuable. Tamara Ghandour:           Yes- because they think about it all the time! Jenn DeWall:                     Yeah. You can probably think of- I’m sure you can do it better than I can. So many companies that you just didn’t think about, maybe ask one question that if you just asked it to a different person outside of that room, how you would have had a drastically different result. Tamara Ghandour:           So I will tell you, and maybe I should wait for the fails episode, or just talk about it again. Here’s the thing. I used to be an innovation consultant, where I would give new product ideas and new service ideas. So they would hire us for lots of money, and we’d go away and do magical research and think differently. And then we’d come back with these beautiful PowerPoint presentations with these brilliant often, very brilliant ideas. And I’m not saying that because my team created them. It wasn’t me. It was the work, but they never went anywhere. And then, one day, I did a workshop where really all I did was facilitate. I didn’t come up with the ideas. I created the foundation and the exercises and the flow and poked and prodded where needed. But I didn’t come up with anything. The team sitting in that room who are thinking about the work came up with all the ideas, and they were resilient and innovative and breakthrough and even better, they actually got implemented because they were there. They were just either hidden, or they were shoved aside, or they just weren’t given the permission or the opportunity to bring up those ideas. So I love it when that happens because people come up to me after like, that was the best session ever. And I’m going, I know- and you did all the work! Like that’s amazing. But it’s really because the ideas and the innovation are there, but we’ve got to find a way to give people permission to innovate in the room to innovate so that they have, they have the ability to actually bring them out. Jenn DeWall:                     Yes, absolutely. Finding and tapping into every available resource that we have instead of just limiting ourselves to the five or six people that might be on one designated team. Tamara Ghandour:           Yeah, I mean, I basically put myself out of business and the other side consulting! Wait, hold on! Jenn DeWall:                     No, I, but I love that it’s such a people- such an inclusive way, right? That this even sounds like a way that you talked about the demoralizing aspect. The more that we can invite people to the table, the more that we can build engagement, the more that we can improve turnover. You know, it’s not just innovation that has, that has positively impacted- they impacted so many other areas. So I love, I just love like touching on how innovation can really move us forward and help those individuals have a voice and see where that- what other positive consequences that can happen as a result of that. How Innovation Improves Employee Engagement Tamara Ghandour:           It’s interesting that you talked about engagement because you’re absolutely right. What we found is that companies that allow their people to innovate give them the room to do that permission to truly do that, and we’ll talk more about what that is. They actually have higher engagement and much less turnover and higher productivity at the end of the day, too. So all of it goes in the right direction. And I think it’s partially because frankly we as humans, we want to contribute. Like we, I mean it doesn’t feel really good when like something in your house breaks and you like MacGyver the heck out of it, and you find a solution. You’re like, yeah, I did that. That was me. But that’s because you’re coming up with a creative solution. You’re doing creative problem solving and critical thinking and actually as humans that actually taps the reward center of our brain. So physiologically, we actually love to innovate and create. And we love doing it and everything we do, it actually makes us feel good. Jenn DeWall:                     Oh my gosh. I wonder how- this is just an “I wonder,” it’s not a question that I expect you to answer, Tamara. But you know saying that, and if it really truly taps into our reward system, I wonder how that could even be seen as something of an equal value in terms of a reward and recognition strategy. Like understanding that you know, if you, instead of just the standard incentives like money, additional time off, that even looking at, Hey, here’s your opportunity to invest or to innovate, to be creative, that is actually something that can give them that sense of value. That sounds like meaning that might mean as much to them as maybe your pay raise does. Tamara Ghandour:           So one of the things that we found in our work, is that when it comes to employees and teams contributing people, so the challenge that we have as leaders is we say, let’s not ask everybody, because we’re not going to do all their ideas, right? We can’t do everybody’s. I can’t be inundated with sticky notes. Like I just, this isn’t going to work. So let’s not, let’s just ask a few people who have bigger picture. But here’s what we found. People actually don’t need to be right. They need to be heard, and they need to be valued. So it’s actually okay to collect it all. And frankly, you never know where a great idea is going to come from. So again, I think it’s a real mistake to not ask all those people because you just don’t know. And oftentimes I think the best solutions come from the places that you least expect. Tamara Ghandour:           But also if you then go back out and say, “Hey, we’re not doing these ideas, we’re doing these, but here’s why: people feel really valued and really heard. So I think we, we set this barrier of, of, well people need their ideas. If they don’t have their ideas moving forward, then they’re going to be mad. So we can’t do that. Because then we’re going to have a lot of mad people. But it’s actually quite the opposite. If you create a real innovation feedback loop where you close it at the end by telling them, Hey, got all submissions, here’s what we’re actually going to do. Jenn DeWall:                     That brings to mind to even how we do solicit that feedback. Because I’ve seen in my career the opposite- where people will avoid asking people for feedback because they know that they’re not necessarily going to be your first line champions, right? Like they aren’t going to like it. So we just won’t ask them. Whereas invite them to the table, let them poke holes at what you’re doing. I mean, I don’t even, I can’t even scratch the surface in terms of innovation knowledge, but I can say that thing like bring them to the table. You want their view considered. Tamara Ghandour:           So here’s the funny part about that. And I’m smiling because I have a whole story around that. So yes. And here’s what I’ve learned the hard way. So I’m the, oh my gosh, anything’s possible. Let’s come up with all the possibilities, right person, I want all the positivity in the world. And I used to get really frustrated by those other people. “They”, right? Jenn DeWall:                     The naysayers- Tamara Ghandour:           Yeah – “they” don’t get it. “They,” think that’ll never work. I call it the “They Syndrome.” That’s what we suffer from. Those of us who are the “Yes, and…” people. In innovation, we’re always taught to go for the “yes and,” but the reality is we need the “yes, but-ers” to fill the holes because we’re not seeing the whole picture. But here’s what I learned with the more analytical, the ones who poke holes, the ones who you know, every time you come up with an idea though, like “bad idea,” right? That won’t work. It won’t work. Well, they’ll never go for it. Like all of it. You have to change your language when you talk to them so that you can get them into solution mode with you. So when I’m talking to those group of “yes, but-ers” and again, I value them, I need them. I can’t do it alone. I’ve learned that the hard way. But when I go to them I say, Hey Jenn, here’s my idea. What holes do you see, and how would you fill it. I asked them out of the gate because what they’ll do is they’ll find the holes, but if I ask them to find the- to figure out how to fill it, they’ll do that with me, too. The mistake we make, because we go, well they didn’t get it, they yes, butted it as opposed to taking it to the next place and saying, how would you solve that? How would you fix that? And here’s my- my kids always make fun of me. They’re like, you’re always so tough love, do you have to be like an all the time? But here’s my tough love thing- that “they syndrome” that we suffer from just hinders innovation as the people trying to move an idea forward. Whatever it is, whether that’s an internal process, a new product to market, it’s our job to get those people involved. We need to take ownership of that. So it’s our job to get those yes, but-ers to help us figure it out. And it’s also our job to not get upset when they say this is the part I don’t like because that’s valuable information. And you’re right, they should all be at the table. Jenn DeWall:                     And I think even going, being able to take your ego out of it, I think it’s easy if you do what you had just recommended instead of saying like, gosh, they’re going to look and poke holes, but asking them, here’s my idea, can you please poke holes in it? Right. That puts totally different energy into it when you’re like, yeah, I want them there. Well, let’s do this. Let’s make something better than what we, what I possibly thought of. Tamara Ghandour:           Yeah. And your point there is the important one. It’s about getting rid of the ego because the ego kills innovation all the time in all forms because we just get so wrapped up in like, this is my baby, don’t call my baby ugly and this has to be perfect. And all these things when it doesn’t actually have to be Any of those. Jenn DeWall:                     Right. Well and I found, and I try to, you know, instill this in when I work with the younger generation, when they might have an idea and that I might spin it and they’re like, oh, I guess that is better. I’m like, no, your idea is what allowed me to think differently about this. Like it’s a combination. All it is is a ripple effect. Right? And that’s the great thing. That’s poking holes, that’s new ideas. It’s all it is, is a continuous build. But it all does have to come with, you know, taking yourself out of the equation and looking at what are we trying to achieve. It’s not just about what am I trying to achieve. How Your Primal Brain Hinders Innovation Tamara Ghandour:           So, you know, it’s funny that you say that about that poking holes thing because, so we have this challenge where we have this primal brain, this lizard brain, and I like to think of it as a bodyguard, and that bodyguard’s job in our mind is to keep us safe and comfortable and warm, and it’s trying to block out anything that doesn’t match our view or bumps up, bumps up against our identity. So when we go to people with new ideas, and we’re like, hey, we’re going to change everything. We’re doing breakthrough. We’re like, forget everything you’ve done to make this company successful. We’re going to go in a whole different direction. We’re bumping up that bodyguard in their brain that’s saying, Whoa, I don’t like this. So I think oftentimes when we feel resistance to change or new ideas, it’s because we haven’t figured out a way to get through the bodyguard. To say, oh okay, that person is resistant because that primal brain of theirs trying to keep them safe, and comfortable. It is primitive. We cannot get rid of that part. You know? And if we do things though and say like, Hey, what you said made me think about this and take it in this direction. Hey, the results you got in this- made me take it over here. Or like you said, Hey, I’m just spring-boarding off of what you said. We pushed the bodyguard aside. So it’s funny to kind of, as we’re talking about all of this, it’s making me realize, and I talk a lot about this in my books and in my keynotes, innovation has its own language, and we have to figure out how to communicate with people in a way that gets buy-in for our idea. So, you know, when we’re talking about the naysayers, and we’re talking about legacy people and the lizard brain, it really is all about how do you use your language in a way that doesn’t shut people down, but make them open to the conversation because that’s really what you need to get momentum to get action on innovation. And oftentimes what I see in companies when I go in, it’s just a bunch of primal brains just battling each other and trying to stay comfortable and safe and whatever it is they’re doing because I don’t know about you, but in fact, this happened to me this morning because I’m guilty of it too. Laura, who works for me- my business manager called me and said, Hey, I have an idea, duh, duh, duh, duh, and I automatically, Whoa! Hmm. I don’t know because what I heard was I’m going to change how you have to do things and give you more work. That’s not what she was saying. Her idea was actually brilliant, but I’m, that’s what I heard, and I had to take a second push, my bodyguard, aside and go, Oh, Oh wait, let’s talk about this for a minute, but my initial reaction was abort, abort! No! It won’t Work! Jenn DeWall:                     Yes, I know, and it’s so funny, people really do not talk about our primitive state, the psychological need for- to be seen and heard, and to feel safe. It’s almost like we talk about leadership, innovation, communication in a vacuum, and we forget that you’re dealing with a complex human being that has natural ways that their brain is going to process that is so far beyond what we can even comprehend. It’s so much more advanced and to think that we, you know, you have to recognize it like why we don’t, and I think there is more of a movement. People are working to be more mindful and to recognize that, but at the end of the day, like you have to make people feel seen and heard if you want anything to be successful. That’s exactly right, and that goes to your comment earlier about getting the ego out of it too. Tamara Ghandour:           And that, Jenn, is why when we developed our business and the assessment that tells people how they innovate, we dove not into the high-level case studies culture of it. We dove into neuroscience and brain mechanics and behavioral psychology and change behavior. We wanted to understand how we as humans innovate and how we get over those hurdles, how we, how we at LaunchStreet create tools to help people get over those hurdles so they can leverage that strength that they already have inside of them. And I think we do ourselves a huge disservice when we focus on this big picture. Like this is how Google innovates, so this is how all of us have to innovate. Like good for Google, don’t get me wrong. Like they’ve changed the game, but that’s one company doing one way, and that doesn’t tell me as an individual, well, that’s great that they have this culture of shared bikes. How, how do I implement innovation with their shared bikes? Right, right. So, and they’re great at all levels, so they’re a wonderful case study, but we have to figure out how to get humans to innovate. And that’s actually the more sustainable and more scalable approach to innovation. It’s not the culture, and it’s not the process. Those things will naturally come out if you start with the people. Jenn DeWall:                     Always start with the people. It’s a foundation thing. And I love it. You touched on the IQE assessment, which I want to get more into, but I really want to get into what we had planned to talk about! Tamara Ghandour:           Oh yeah, we had planned some stuff, right? The Four Traps of Certainty That Kill Innovation Jenn DeWall:                     But I love our conversation, where’d we go with that? Okay. We’re trying to get back here. No, but because I think that this is such an important topic to bring forward to all of our listeners talking about the four traps of certainty that are essentially, I think you had said like the barriers to innovation. And I want to dive into that cause I know that our listeners will find a lot of value. So, Tamara, you’ve talked about the four traps of certainty. What are those? What’s the first one? What is the first trap of certainty that people fall into? Certainty Trap 1: Innovation is Only for Certain People Tamara Ghandour:           So we’ve hinted at it, and I think the beginning of our conversation too, the first trap is that innovation is for certain people. So that’s usually, you know, Miranda with a cool streak in her hair and the funky glasses who goes to all the cool cafes. Jenn DeWall:                     She’s soo creative. Tamara Ghandour:           Not me- but she is so, or it’s, you know, the person with the awesome title, like VP of Brand New Ideas or Head of Enthusiasm, which I ran across that title the other day. I still don’t know what it means, but I could have that title. But we equate innovation with, you know, these people who are bestowed with these magical powers from the beginning. And that is, that’s a total myth. It’s actually not the reality. And as we talked about in the beginning, it actually hinders innovation across your organization in a lot of ways. First of all, you’re only tapping a certain amount of people. And second, you’re actually demoralizing everybody else by telling specifically telling them or accidentally that they are not innovative and then they’re not the ones that contribute. So, you know, it’s a major myth that you’re born with a certain way that it’s only for certain people. It’s actually for all of us. And if we just looked into our day to day lives, we’d see moments of innovation across our lives. But then we get to work, and we’re not the innovative ones. And I’ll tell you a quick story on it. And this happened to me years ago. So I was working in brand strategy and innovation in New York, and I was fairly new to the company I was six months in. So I was at that phase, where I was still super excited and just absolutely so, and I was working on this one team, but we had an all-team meeting, and I had this boss who was a super petite woman. I towered over her, but she had a love of hierarchy. She was so imposing the hierarchy, and I over the weekend had found this opportunity for another team. I just happened to come across it, and I was so excited to bring it to the meeting on Monday. So we shuffle into the meeting. All the teams are there. We’re kind of giving these debriefs to how things are going. And I raised my hand, and I start to share this opportunity for the other team. This super innovative idea that I thought I’d found for them. And granted it wasn’t fully thought out. It was just a nugget. I was young, probably didn’t know what I was talking about, but I was excited to share it. Before I could finish my sentence. My boss, with her love of hierarchy, stopped me and said, Tamara, this is not your job. Don’t worry about being innovative. I need you to do the tasks that we agreed to. That’s their job to come up with that stuff. And we- meaning the directors will like look for the new opportunities. Shut it down. And everybody in the room was like, yep. Like nobody argued about it. It wasn’t because she was different than everybody else or her perspective. And that moment I shut down because suddenly I’ve been told not to be innovative because I’m not of that pattern or that, you know, I’m not the stones of magical power or title. And so I think unfortunately we do that even in our day to day meetings without realizing it. We know that people- a couple of people that do it best in the company or those innovative people we’re not, right? We know that, but we even do it on a day to day basis without realizing it. And what our work in research has really come to uncover is that everybody’s innovative. It’s a whole-brain experience. The all the imaging that we’ve done on the brain proves that we all do it. And the interesting part about it is it actually intelligence and innovation have two different structures in our brain. Jenn DeWall:                     No way. Tamara Ghandour:           is that cool. I was so excited because I thought, Oh, thank God. So people like me who are not the smartest people in the room can still be innovative. So intelligence, think of it as like deep grooves a highway, right? Superhighways where innovation is more like side rows loosely connected across your brain. But when they show people across all different types of styles, everybody has a structure. So we all innovate. It’s actually really common. We just have this myth that is for certain people that needs to be debunked. Jenn DeWall:                     Yeah. So one of the first places that we have to start with, I mean at the individual level going back is deprogramming our brains from how we’ve been, or excuse me, reprogramming, I mean, to overcompensate for all of the times that we’ve been told or put in the corner or saying, you know, don’t be too creative or you’re, you know, when you’re doing this, this isn’t your place to be. And I could almost see the young Tamara that’s so bright-eyed. And so excited, it’s like a shriveling flower, right? That’s how everyone starts in an organization. They are this beautiful flower and over time and then the piece of innovation over time, as they offer their ideas and they’re completely shunned that flower closes and you’re no longer wanting to see its beauty, and you’re going to continue to see weeds or the same ideas over and over. But it’s all ego. Check your ego at the door. Tamara Ghandour:           There’s this mistake that it’s this magical thing that some people are born with, and some aren’t. And the truth is we all have it. And what we’ve also seen is so well the brain isn’t technically a muscle. It acts like one in this case. So the more, the more activity innovative activity we give it, the more we exercise it, the stronger it gets. So some of us might feel, might be thinking, okay, Tamara, that’s great, but I just don’t, I don’t feel it. I don’t feel innovative. I’m not doing it on a daily basis. And you might be right, but it’s because those muscles that, that part of your brain is just weak. That’s it. So you just got to exercise it a little bit, and then it gets stronger and stronger and stronger. And that’s what we see over time with our clients is that the ones where we go in, and the team is feeling really just well stuck in the old way is once they start activating it over and over again, it becomes strong and then it becomes second nature. Jenn DeWall:                     So it’s practice. Certainty Trap 2: Innovation is for Certain Times Tamara Ghandour:           It’s practice, which leads to myth number two, a certainty number two, which is that it’s for certain times, and I like to think of it as an, I’m sure you’ve experienced this, it’s that 3:00 PM brainstorm with the scented markers and the blank legal pads. One moment you’re supposed to be innovative and breakthrough. And the poor person who’s leading the meeting, who’s not a facilitator, it’s probably a team member warms you up with some ridiculous exercise. And I’ve done this, so I’m not judging it. Like, okay, well, if you could have dinner with anyone living or dead, who would it be? Or if you could be any animal in the who would it be? And then suddenly you’re supposed to go to these blank legal pads and fill it with this amazing genius of innovation. But it doesn’t happen because we’ve had our head down all day and then suddenly 3:00 PM we’re expecting this magic to happen when those muscles had been dormant for so long. So we got to get out of this idea that innovation is a point in time exercise and make it a part of everything that we do. Tamara Ghandour:           The best innovation happens every day when we’re doing the work when we’re thinking about all the things. So we got to get out of that, that mentality that Hey, it needs scented markers, which by the way, I love them. Watermelon’s my favorite. I don’t do any workshops without them. They’re my favorite. But that’s not the only time innovation happens at all actually. Jenn DeWall:                     Well and just think that even if you think about how dynamic that brain is in general, I love that you touched on how dormant it is, but the fact that our brain is different on any given day based on what we were focused on, what our experience was. So to expect that someone’s going to be able to come forward to you at three o’clock every Thursday, when they could have a lovely idea at 8 am Monday you’re completely missing because you’re not giving the opportunity to, I guess, what would that be on, on-demand innovation. Or like Just in Time Innovation, there’s a book idea. Tamara Ghandour:           Exactly. I’m leaping ahead a little bit. We’ll get into it about the leadership tools. We have this innovation feedback loop. That’s all about that like gathering when people are thinking about them, and you don’t need to wait and the myth of certain times shuts down innovation because you’re telling people, not in those other times and only now and then everybody’s frustrated because you get together during those times and it doesn’t work. I mean, how many times if you’ve left those sessions going well, we didn’t get what we needed like that didn’t go well. Jenn DeWall:                     And people are just asking the wrong like there were completely off-topic. We’re in a completely different aspect, and I feel like there has to be a little bit of stage fright that comes in because no lecture, you’ve got to dump everything that makes you magical, bright, shiny. Tamara Ghandour:           In an hour. Jenn DeWall:                     In an hour! At three o’clock. And if you don’t do it now, you’re going to have to wait and you might, self-doubt might kick in by that point in time. Here’s something else. And so it might be completely gone, and a beautiful idea is lost. Tamara Ghandour:           I think oftentimes it’s interesting that you bring that up. I think a couple of things happen. I think, first of all, most of us don’t make room for the introverts in the room. So if you’re like me, you suck the air out of a room and talk out. You know, I think out loud Jenn DeWall:                     Same! We have an introvert in our room right now. It’s like don’t make eye contact He’s just laughing at us. Tamara Ghandour:           But we don’t make room for them. And then they walk away feeling even more frustrated because they know that we’re looking at them going, well, why aren’t you adding value? Christopher? Come on like, why aren’t you speaking? But that’s not how they process. So we don’t even make the room for the people who need more time or just need to maybe put it on paper first before they say it out loud. I think that’s challenge number one. I think the other challenge is a big one is we’re so busy trying to look smart. We’re so afraid of looking stupid, ridiculous. Like we don’t know our stuff in front of our colleagues that we often say things with that frame of mind, and that shuts down innovation, new ideas. Oh, this is so ridiculous. But years ago, years, many years, more years than I care to count. When I got into college, it was UC Berkeley, and I was convinced I shouldn’t be there, and we had this anthropology class. It was 800 people or something, and so we had these small study groups with the grad students that ran up, and they would give us these assignments, and we had to come in and tell us, tell them what we thought of this. I met, and I was so worried that people would figure out I shouldn’t belong there because I wasn’t smart enough, I wasn’t good enough. All those kinds of things came up. I wanted to be smart in front of this group. This was the smart people. I needed to be smart that when I came back and presented my, my homework, my view on this assignment, it was so off. It was embarrassing, but it was off because I was too busy trying to look smart, and had I gone with just really thinking through and saying and believing that my ideas were good, good enough in the moment. However, they were, I would have at least been able to contribute to the conversation. But instead, I was trying to be smart. And we see that like fast forward into meetings today where we get into a room, and we want to be smart. Of course, we want to be smart in front of our colleagues. It’s a natural inclination, but without the right space and the right tools that shuts down innovation. And then you end up with bad ideas because they’re not coming from a place of really solving the problems. Jenn DeWall:                     Oh, gotcha. And that’s just making me think of like that natural perfectionist, right? That wants to make everything not only attractive so they can feel like they fit in or that they are worthy of being in the company of their peers. But also then how we look at innovation as something that you can’t bring a product to market until it’s 100% perfect and then that’s when you watch someone else have an idea that’s close to yours and go the other way. And it’s just how often are the beautiful, amazing perfectionists. I say this to them because they need the reassurance that they’re great even though they fail. After all, that’s what we all have. But how often did they miss out on their opportunities to even be innovators? Because there’s so much dang pressure to find the nest. Next big million-dollar idea. Yeah. Tamara Ghandour:           We often worry that our ideas aren’t perfect, and then what we do is we shut it down, so we don’t say it in the meeting. We don’t pursue it because we think, well, I just need to figure out this next thing, right? I just need to figure out this next part of it, and then I can actually bring it to market. The challenge is really twofold. One is from a business perspective, somebody is going to beat you to it. Like the playing field for businesses, even right now, it doesn’t matter if your small or big. You’re all competing. So if you’re going to wait until it’s perfect, I guarantee you somebody else has already done it, and they’re going to take your market share before you even had a chance to grab it. I think I’m on the individual level as well. The reality is there’s this chasm and innovation between the conference room and the real world. Tamara Ghandour:           And in the conference room, we try to make things perfect, but in the real world, things are never perfect. So even if we perfected on our PowerPoint with all the beautiful data and everything we think is perfect and all our hypotheses, once it goes into battle, right, it all falls apart. So to wait for it to be quote-unquote perfect, doesn’t make any sense anyway because you need the marketplace to tell you what’s going to work. I think I think it was Mike Tyson that said it best. Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face. Jenn DeWall:                     No, but it’s true because that is what happens! Tamara Ghandour:           That’s perfectionism. Its over-planning and over assessing. I’m all for planning and being thoughtful, but the marketplace and whether that marketplace, by the way, is testing an internal process with some of your other team members or your customer, they’re the ones who will protect it and optimize it for you. Not you. You can’t do it. It’s impossible. Jenn DeWall:                     Can you move too fast? Tamara Ghandour:           Can you move too fast? Yes. I think there’s a balance. I think there’s a balance between moving fast and being thoughtful. I’m often. Sometimes I think there’s people get fall into this trap of fail fast, fail forward, like all those kind of platitudes that are out there right now, which actually drives me nuts because I think they set us up for just speed, but there’s a balance between speed and intelligence or thoughtfulness. And I think we need to balance the two because you can fail fast. But for what? For what purpose? What did you learn? What did you change? How did you, how did you pivot? So I think you need to be nimble, but that speed needs to come with moments of intelligence with it too. Jenn DeWall:                     Okay. No, that was just my curiosity because I think that always is, everyone kind of feels that they’re, you know, they grapple with that. Like is it more important for me to get this to market? And you knew it is, it is finding that balance, but it’s not pitching a tent until your idea is fully fleshed out and then packing up and getting ready to go back home and like watch it. You have to, you know like you need to get it out there. You can’t make everything perfect. Certainty Trap 3: Innovation is for Certain Segments Tamara Ghandour:           And I also think it matters how you do it. So I think there are some businesses that are really good at putting stuff to market or testing stuff in a way that their customers know. This is round one, and customers are incredibly helpful. I think we, in business, we put up this weird invisible wall between us and the customer and we say, well, it has to be perfect before it goes out into the world, but they’re actually really willing to come along the journey with us. They should be a part of the process from day one. First of all, it makes us more innovative when we think about things from their perspective. And it’s a little bit off on a tangent we’ll go back to before a certain day. But I was talking to somebody about this the other day who runs events and festivals in Texas, and he was talking about bringing me in for a keynote, and he said, you know, the challenge we have is we look at everything as the bottom line, the number on the P and L. So drinks is one line. ticket sales is another line. Booths is another line. He said, but that’s not how the customer sees it. So we shut down innovation because we’re over there pretending like the customer doesn’t exist. We’re just looking at a P. And, L, this is how we segment things. So this is how we’re going to think about it. But that’s not how their customers think about it. Their customers think about the whole experience. So to bring innovation to thrive, we’ve got to bring that voice in as well. So we got off track on the certainties, but the four traps. But there’s, so to go back to those, so there’s certain people which we talked about certain times and then there’s also certain segments. That’s the third one, and certain segments is we think innovation score marketing and R and D and the innovation lab, right? The places where we kind of have come to expect it and know it. What I found in my work that the best innovation happens from the places you least expect. So one of my favorite clients is Schneider Electric. They do big energy packages often to public works companies, municipalities. And one of my clients over there brought the IQE assessment and some of our work to his engineering team. And as he said it to me, so Tamara, this is a team of super-smart people that nobody taps for innovation. It’s not who we think about. And sure enough, after kind of being given permission and some tools to innovate, they came up with some incredible solutions for the rest of the company. So, you know, we think of it as like certain departments, but the reality is those the best innovations happen in places that you least expect it. Another one of my clients, some of the best innovations that saved the company millions of dollars came from their internal auditing teams. So operational excellence team, they’re not customer facing, it’s not sexy, but they’re the ones that are driving innovation. So we’ve got to get out of this mindset that, you know, Marketing, R and D and Innovation, the cool departments get to be the innovators and bring it to the rest of the business. Jenn DeWall:                     Well in recognize the faults and just relying in one department because the natural fault that can happen if you go back to even an organizational structure of hiring people, hire people that are most like themselves sometimes if they don’t have that mindful practice. And so then all of a sudden before you know it, you have a million people on your R and D team that all have the same attitude and they get along great. But your innovation efforts start to go back a little bit. And I think companies forget about that, that there are natural disconnects that occur in the workplace because of how humans operate. Again, going back to like our own mind and how that impacts everything, but knowing that if you just do that, you’re putting a lot of risk in your innovation efforts. Tamara Ghandour:           Yeah, you absolutely are. And what we’ve found is that ideas have come from birds of a feather tend to die. And there are holes in them, major holes in them. Because to your point, we’re all seeing it from the same perspective. We’re looking at the same information from the same perspective, with the same experiences behind us, right? So we’re not seeing the whole picture for innovation to thrive, we actually have to tap the power of diversity of thinking. And that can happen in a lot of different ways. That can happen by tapping different innovators style. So you innovate in one way. I innovate in another way and really making sure that we’re leveraging that it can happen by different tapping, different departments, different types of people. And you’re absolutely right. And it’s interesting. We found that different departments have different patterns of how they innovate, and that’s great, but to your point, we could open up the diversity of thinking by opening up who gets to innovate and who’s part of that. Jenn DeWall:                     Again, I what came to mind earlier when you were talking about this certain people, if I like that I’m going to walk away with is one of the things I always like to assume this is a little tangent is assume positive intent, right? That people are coming to you, but in the case of innovation, it’s assuming innovative ability, right? Just baseline. That is an assumption that we should make on every single person that we interact with because otherwise, we may be missing out on an opportunity. Now that’s not to say again that we’re going to get every, you know that everyone is going to have a great idea, but if we don’t start with that, Then curiosity, we’re never going to be able to hear some of those ideas. Tamara Ghandour:           I love that, that positive intent. It’s absolutely true. And I think what we found, what we found anyway is that if we start with that, they start to grow into that. So as leaders, if we start to assume that of our teams and give them a little bit of room to play that way, they’ll actually get there. So, and it may not happen overnight, it probably won’t happen overnight, but they will over time if you start to treat them that way, they’ll respond with that way. And, but we expect it to happen at that 3:00 PM brainstorm and said in the marketing department would that cool person. And that’s really not how it works. Jenn DeWall:                     Coming to three o’clock, I’ll bring the popcorn and markers- Tamara Ghandour:           I’ve got some Legos on the table… And I’m not saying we shouldn’t have meetings where we come together, we should, but we absolutely should. That’s missing the other 99% of the time that we have the opportunity to innovate right. So why would we, why would we do that? Jenn DeWall:                     You’re not there. And going back to the segments piece, I think of this because it’s- it’s a more, it just is the example that tops my mind in terms of a recent example of a celebrity, but Kim Kardashian- and she started her new shapewear line, and she wanted to call that Kimono as a play off of her own name. Well had she actually brought someone to the table. She would have recognized that kimono was actually offensive, but you know, and she didn’t ask, she didn’t ask, she didn’t have the right people in the room, but she had all of her fans. So that goes back down to the likeminded people. All the fans loved it. Oh my gosh, do that. Then all of a sudden, you know, right before it came down to her launch. So a lot of money is invested on, I’m sure on her product packaging everything that they needed for marketing, and then they had to change their name to Skimwear, you know, all of it could have been resolved by having that diversity at the table. Tamara Ghandour:           I think it’s such a good point, and I think that if you look at, particularly in marketing because they’re the ones that we all kind of know, right? We see them on TV or on YouTube or whatever. If we look at the fails, it’s exactly that. So I’m just going to pick on Peloton for a second because they have one right now happening and I like Peloton. This is not about that. This is about this one specific ad, but it’s been fascinating to see there’s been this huge backlash against it. Jenn DeWall:                     The newest ad? Tamara Ghandour:           Have you seen it? So I watched it again to try to understand like why are people so outraged by this ad? And I think it’s exactly what you just said. It’s a very specific sliver point of view that didn’t think through how that might be interpreted to a bigger audience because they I would suspect did not have the diversity of thinking of the table or didn’t have a tool to allow them to kind of expand their thinking a little bit. And we’ll see how it all plays out. It’s like not my commentary about the ad, but it all over the social media, right now. Jenn DeWall:                     Oh my gosh. And there are so many, just different like memes and gifs all about that. And I mean there’s a point where, Hey, publicity is great, but then there’s a point where. Tamara Ghandour:           it’s not always when you are picked over – but those, and you look at, yeah, Pepsi when they- I mean it is marketing’s easy example because we see it, all of us see it. But when you look at those examples, it makes you realize, yeah, maybe also years and years ago I was working for a large soda company, and I’ll never forget being in the room with them. We’re coming up with campaigns for one of their big sodas. And it was a. I’m 47 now. I was 20 when this happened. So I called them old at the time and now I realize they really weren’t. That’s okay. But it was a bunch of 50 year old boomers coming up with ads for up and coming, I think it was gen Y at the time, because I’m a gen X or so, but the young audience. Right. And you kept hearing them say things like, well, “they” like, well “they,” and I just remember sitting in that room thinking, huh, Oh my gosh, none of you are the target market, and you’re all making this decision based on like this one, your experience and your perspective. There was no diversity of thinking in the room at all. I think often times that’s where the failures happen is because we, we didn’t see the whole thing. We didn’t invite the whole picture to have a voice at the table. Jenn DeWall:                     And how often does that happen in organizations where the people that are in the boardroom or in their upper management levels are making decisions for the people they’re trying to serve, and they have no idea who that person is. Yeah. And then it’s just, you know, it’s just kind of like raining money then I wish I could be on the receiving end, catch all the wasted money. But you are wasting a lot of valuable resources that could be leveraged in so many different ways if you just had the right people in the room. Tamara Ghandour:           Yeah. And it’s, and it’s about to your point, it’s about diversity of thinking. So teams that have diversity of thinking have stronger solutions, they have more productivity. There’s a lot that happens when you have that. Studies have actually shown that, and that diversity of thinking goes beyond what is also important, which is kind of the ones we see at the surface, which is kind of race, gender, age, kind of all of those. Those are all extremely important. But it’s also making sure that you’re tapping into cognitive diversity as well. We all have different thinking patterns. In fact, interestingly, the brain is like the thumb, no different. Every brain is unique. So none of us are wired in exactly the same way. So we’ve got to find ways to tap each other and that diversity in our brains because that’s going to get us that at the table. And sometimes, we stop at the surface, and we don’t dig deeper to find it. So you may have it in your organization and just not be using it because they don’t have the title Jenn DeWall:                     Or you know, remembering. And you know, the thing that I always think is so interesting about the title perspective is that we forget that there is so much value in the people that do not have the preexisting experience and judgments already made. Like, ask them, even if you are like, okay well that may have some validity, may not have some validity because you do have the experience or evaluate it, but those people are going to see things that you have long like blinded yourself from being able to see. Tamara Ghandour:           Well, and I find that you know, as my company grows, I feel more and more removed. So I need those people who are doing it day to day who are, they’re the ones connecting with the customers. They’re the ones who, who are fielding the challenges and see the opportunities. I need my frontline staff to give me their innovation, and it’s my job to tap that and get that out of them. But they have incredible ideas for me, and I’ve got a major, my responsibility is to get it out of them, but why wouldn’t I? They, I’m removed at this point, right? I’m working. I’m playing over here. They’re the ones doing the day to day. So, of course, they have all the brilliance and they have zero titles relatively speaking, but that’s even better. And if you look at some of great innovations that have happened over time, but from frontline staff, so I once saw Kat Cole, they got her name right there. She was the president of Cinnabon. I think she’s moved up since, but she was telling a story about how Cinnabon, you know, now I’m thinking about Cinnabon… Jenn DeWall:                     Like I can smell them, I want it now talking about actually coming back from Thanksgiving, I did happen to pass a Cinnabon and we all know the smell. It was in the gas station that we stopped in. Tamara Ghandour:           That smell like every mall smells like Cinnabon. That’s awesome. Okay. So, okay, I’m back. So their sales are flat. The way we go to malls has changed in America. The way we engage in the food court has changed. It’s all changed, and they hadn’t. So she went, she’s very smart. She went it to different malls across America to understand what was happening. And she goes to a mall in the middle of America somewhere, and some part-time cashier says to her, I think the problem is they’re not portable. Nobody stops to eat anymore. We need to put them into sticks. And sure enough that created Cinna-sticks, which I think was something, I think she said something like 30% on their bottom line. Wow. But that was that person at the bottom of the organization on the front lines who sees it and experiences it every single day. So one of the things that we work really strongly with our clients on is creating a really solid innovation feedback loop that taps, all those people and gets them to input those ideas and then to loop it to our earlier part of the conversation makes them feel valued and heard on the backend regardless of what you choose to do. Because not every idea can move forward, that’s ridiculous to think that. But your best ideas can come from there. Jenn DeWall:                     Yes. Oh my gosh, I love this. Certainty Trap 4: Innovation is a Certain Proccess Tamara Ghandour:           Let’s go back. Let’s. We’ll close it up with the four traps- we’ve covered like a million things, I don’t know what time it is. Hopefully, we’re on track. So the fourth, fourth, one is certain processes. So I see this all the time. Companies invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in the latest and greatest technology, software collaboration process. The thing that they think is going to change the game for them because you know, other people do it with success. Jenn DeWall:                     This is our golden ticket. Tamara Ghandour:           Yes, exactly. And then I get the call. I don’t get it. We implemented this new process, but it’s just doesn’t seem to be working. So the reality is, and it goes back to everything we’ve been talking about, is people first. When you start with people, innovation scales, and it’s sustainable, and they will engage in those processes. So we often get clients who call us and say, we invest all this money. It’s not working. Now my job’s on the line. My, my reputation is on the line. What do I do? So we come into these programs to get their people to be more innovative, and then they can get to the processes that work for them. But we expect that all the time. Don’t we. I’ll tell you, I heard on a podcast this incredible collaboration app software that I bought. This solves my problems for my company. I totally, I fell into this trap hands down. So I, I researched it, I invested in it, I spent the time to set my company up cause you know like every, every team, we all were off in our silos doing our things. It happens to all of us. I presented it to the team. We’re all super excited about it. I think we used it for 48 hours, and then nothing else ever happened ever again. And I wasted time and money, and I created initiative fatigue. Because once again, here I am with another initiative, another initiative. And the team’s like, we don’t need any more processes to follow. But the reality is is because we hadn’t done the work to back up and say, what do we need to be and do, and how do we need to collaborate? We should have done that first. Instead, I was like, Oh, shiny thing. I’m going to invest in that. And it’s going to work. Because it’s all the buzz, but it never works. I cannot tell you the number of times I get phone calls from leaders saying, I don’t know what to do. I’ve invested in this process for the team, and it’s still not, it’s just not working, and it’s because we need to back up and get the people to be innovative. Jenn DeWall:                     Well, and you bring up, I think something that is a problem that many organizations that causes so many issues like innovation, engagement, that is shiny object syndrome. Tamara Ghandour:           Totally. Jenn DeWall:                     You can kill innovation by just wanting people to follow the next big thing. Oh yeah. You talked about it as being the fatigue that happens and all the time when we’re doing that, how do you even then focus on what’s important to innovate when you’re just like, we’re always innovating, I guess. I don’t know we’re innovating. It’s just faking action without actually measuring results. Right? I mean, that’s not innovating just because you’re taking actions. So know when it’s appropriate to innovate and know the difference between innovation and just taking action. Tamara Ghandour:           Yeah, and I think initiative fatigue is real for people. We are doing more with less, I think after 2008, and I see this across the globe. It’s not just in the U.S. you know, we’ve all as leaders been hesitant to over-hire, over-activate. So all of us at all levels of organizations are doing more than we’ve ever done. It’s, it is, you see it in all the productivity charts, you see it in the fatigue and the stress. So we’ve got to make sure that we’re not just layering on initiative after initiative because people can’t handle it. There’s just too many. So, and I think that’s why our work really resonates with clients is because we’re not saying here’s an initiative. We’re saying, let me give you the foundational tool to get your people to have the right mindset and the right tools to implement that mindset on a daily basis. And then the right processes and culture are going to come out of that. You need those too. But you can’t have those without the first piece. Hey, can’t put the cart before the horse. No. And it is, I mean, I learned it the hard way with that collaboration tool, which I don’t feel silly even, but, but it’s, it’s so easy for that shiny object and that new initiative to sound great. And ultimately, here’s what also happens, and I’ve, I’ve seen this in, when we do innovation audits, we’ll do these anonymous interviews with people to get their perspective. So we don’t share who they are later because right. We don’t want to make those people feel like they need to look smart or good for their boss. And what we hear is just wait for that initiative to be done. Like, I’m just going to sit back and just wait because they’ll just get bored of it, and then a year later, we’ll have a different initiative anyway. And that happens more than we as leaders care to admit. And it’s not because we’re bad people or because we’re flighty, it’s because we’re trying to find something that works. We’re solving the wrong problems. Jenn DeWall:                     Yeah, it’s, and I see it a lot. Just the shiny object syndrome, and then you have the fatigue, and yes I have, I have absolutely been that employee where I’m like well we just wait a few weeks. Like this will be off their radar, so it won’t matter. So I wouldn’t take any action on it. And I mean if you’re going to innovate, the thing that I think is funny and when we do have the initiatives, if it’s truly an initiative that’s of value, build in those checkpoints, building your milestones, building your key performance indicators. Because if you don’t have those, then it’s hard for me as an employee to see that we take it seriously because we’re not even measuring its impact. Tamara Ghandour:           So I love to call that launch and abandon, and we see that time and time again, where we get super excited about something. We launch it as leaders, and it could be important, it could be the right one, but then we don’t continue to make it a priority. And whether that’s kind of a point of conversation every day, or tools that we give people, milestones, and check-ins, I’m giving people the right resources along the way, whatever it is. We don’t do that. We just launch it, and then we go, and then the rocket ship crashes back down to earth because people wait it out or they don’t do it, or they don’t get it, quote-unquote right. Because they haven’t actually been given any more guidance beyond the first launch, so you would never launch a rocket and then kill the engines two seconds later. I mean, I guess when you got to the outer space, but it’s the same in business. You don’t, we launch it, and then we abandon it. Jenn DeWall:                     Hey, you don’t expect to just coast without putting fuel in without like moving the steering wheel. Tamara Ghandour:           Yeah, you gotta drive it still. So I think as leaders, we need to really think about which initiatives and which innovation do we really want to push forward and what are we really willing to do to continue that. Because the other thing that we this is kind of more of a trap that we fall into is we think that once we launch it that it’s going to be this like single line straight up that everything’s going to work. This is obviously the right solution. Jenn DeWall:                     It sounds like the same as like assumption that we make about weight loss. And my weight’s going to go consistently down, and suddenly my skin’s going to be clear, totally drink 64 ounces of water every day. Tamara Ghandour:           Before 9:00 AM, right? And what we found about innovation and a lot of initiatives, it’s actually a J curve. It’s not a straight line up. So what happens is we launch it, people are excited, but then things don’t work out as planned. We have to do double work while we figure out the new solution and the kinks in it. So we still have to do the old work. The naysayers come out in droves, right? So we, we have to prep people for the J curve, and as leaders, that means we need to invest, we cannot launch and then walk away and expect them to make it through the J curve of innovation. Jenn DeWall:                     I love that. That’s a great way to wrap up our podcast. Just thinking that You know, you have to really measure your results. You’ve got to invest your time and attention and follow through. It can’t just be this wishful thinking like I created it. Now it’s going to be like, okay to launch. I mean, if you think about children, we don’t birth them as a child and then expect them to be able to take care and maintain themselves. Like why would we think the same would be true for a product? Tamara Ghandour:           And every stage is different, right? I’m hitting teenage life now with my kids, and it’s different than the toddler stage, right? It takes different investment and different requirements. Innovation is the same way. What’s Your Leadership Habit for Success? Jenn DeWall:                     Tamara, thank you so much for sharing the insights that you did today. For those of you that were listening, I’m going to give you additional information about how you can reach out to Tamara and how you can try and find out your own level of innovation by doing the IQE assessment. So stay tuned after we wrap, and you’re going to hear directions for how you can access that free IQE assessment. Tamara, I loved our conversation, but I have to ask you the one final question that we ask everyone, which is what is your leadership habit for success? Tamara Ghandour:           So I created a “growth club,” which has probably been the best thing I’ve ever done. And what that means is my team, and I pick a book, a podcast, a web series, doesn’t matter. That’s what I call it, growth and not a book club, every six weeks. And we all read it, or we all watch it. And then we come together, and we discuss, and we share our notes, and we talk about what we learned. And more importantly, I think we then talk about what do we want to implement based on what we learned? How does that change how we’re going to do something? How does that improve? How are we going to do something? And it’s so basic. But I think we get so myopic in our work in our lives. It’s so easy to just have our head downs in our one little industries, and our one little jobs and our books are everything from right now we’re reading Atomic Habits by James Clear, about how to make tiny changes to get remarkable results. Highly recommend! Before that, we did a Brendan Bouchard online course. So he’s a big kind of online entrepreneur. So not in my field, but fascinating to see how he’s grown his business. So we pick something- and the other thing I’d say is I’m not the one that picks it. My team picks it. So they’re responsible for coming to the table with new growth opportunities for us. And I think that kind of has helped twofold as a leader. One is they have different perspectives that I don’t have. So that enriches my abilities. And my skills, and they get to contribute at a way that contributes to the organization. So I would encourage everyone to have a growth club that goes beyond kind of your traditional book club. It has been just wonderful for us. Jenn DeWall:                     I love that. And I like that it’s a growth club and that it is something that gives everyone the opportunity to share different perspectives so we can learn from it because every person is our teacher and our student. Tamara Ghandour:           Absolutely. And I think it’s key our last time at the end of it is how do we implement or what are we going to change? Like how is that impacting us now that we know this knowledge? Because I think it’s one thing to talk about it. It’s another thing to actually do it. Jenn DeWall:                     Don’t talk about it. Be about it. Tamara Ghandour:           That’s Right. Jenn DeWall:                     Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I loved our conversation, and I cannot wait to do this again in the future. Tamara Ghandour:           Oh, we’ll be doing this again. We have more notes we didn’t cover! Jenn DeWall:                     Yes, we do! Thank you. Thank you for listening to today’s episode of the leadership habit podcast with Tamara Ghandour. If you want to learn more about how you can become a better innovator, hop on over to gotolaunchstreet.com or look for the address in the show notes there. You can book Tamara to speak for your organization and find additional resources on how to move innovation efforts forward. Also, you can take the free IQE assessment so you can find out how you innovate. If you like today’s episode, please share it with your friends and family and don’t forget to rate and review us on your favorite podcast streaming service. The post Episode 19: Everyday Innovation with Tamara Ghandour appeared first on Crestcom International.

Work Fails: What to do When You Make Mistakes at Work On today’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, we are going to be continuing our “Work Fails” series. We are interviewing Emily Hastings, who is the Executive Assistant to Crestcom’s CEO. She has a background in the hospitality industry, specifically both restaurants and hotels and also a background within nonprofits. Emily is going to be sharing her work fails to help you overcome your own mistakes at work and find the learnings and wisdom that come with it. Jenn DeWall:                      Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall and today I’m talking to Emily Hastings who is the Executive Assistant to the CEO of Crestcom, and she is here willingly sharing her fails because we are continuing our “Work Fails” minisode. Emily’s background is within the hospitality industry, specifically restaurants and hotels, but she also has deep expertise with nonprofits and she’ll be leaning into those experiences to share her feelings with you and hopes that you can learn from her. Understand what you can do if you ever find yourself in those same situations or feel confident that you are not alone when those work mistakes happen, it’s not whether they’ll happen, it’s about how you handle them. Emily, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. I really appreciate it. Emily Hastings:                  I’m so excited, Jenn! Jenn DeWall:                      Good. So I know we were talking a little bit earlier offline about a few of the different work fails, but let’s, let’s start it off. What is one of your top work fails that you think of, and maybe you cringe when you go back and look at it or think about it? Emily Hastings:                  Well, you know, I was thinking about this when you brought it up, and kind of categorized a few fails because everybody has them. And I’ve had many different jobs in my background and I’m so I had a lot to choose from. Jenn DeWall:                      Good! Emily Hastings:                  Cause I like to say everybody fails sometimes, right? Jenn DeWall:                      No, everyone does fail. There’s just that weird stigma where we’re not supposed to admit it, but that’s the whole point of our mini-series of mini-episodes is to show people failures and mistakes happen. Totally normal. Everyday Mistakes at Work Emily Hastings:                  Absolutely. So the first thing that came to mind was when I was working in a restaurant early in my career like as I was going to school, I worked in restaurants; I worked in room service at the hotel where I worked for years. And that’s such an easy place to think of mistakes. There are little fails for any restaurant worker every day, every shift. And it’s about how you recover from them. And I learned some very basic recovery tools and how to jump back up and get back into the game after you really mess something up. And I think that’s been valuable throughout my whole career. I’m learning how to not let it phase you. So just little things like getting an order wrong, bringing the food to the wrong table. I don’t eat meat, so sometimes I would forget to ask questions like, how do you want that cooked? And didn’t understand why it was important either. So sometimes there were mix-ups like that and or dropping someone’s food, all their food right before you get to the table, dropping food on the person. As you can tell, I was a really good waitress. Jenn DeWall:                      How do you recover from that, though? Emily Hastings:                  So you first you have to learn, you know, apologize, apologize, apologize and don’t let it, you know, some people have a really hard time saying, Oh, I’m so sorry I messed up, or I did wrong. Some people, their ego doesn’t let them do that very easily. You must get over that and you know in restaurant and hospitality, you have to just let that roll right off your back and keep moving. And you learned in the restaurant, you know, everything’s fixable because you can comp something, you can have it remade, you can give them a free meal next time you can buy them a bottle of wine, you can buy them a bottle of champagne depending on how egregious your error was. And when I was working in the restaurant at a hotel, you could do other things like give them breakfast coupons or you know, offer them free room service later, that sort of thing. Or even if you know, you spilled something on them; you could offer laundry service since we were in a hotel. So things like that were nice that you couldn’t necessarily do in a freestanding restaurant. But there were other options for smoothing it over. Take Ownership of Your Mistakes Jenn DeWall:                      I like that the first thing you said was ownership. When we make our fails or our mistakes, the first thing we need to do is own it and look for what we did and what we could’ve done differently and communicate, apologize, own your mistakes. Don’t pretend they didn’t happen, but own them. Take responsibility. Emily Hastings:                  Absolutely. And you know, in the hospitality industry, when I would train people underneath me, I would always say, if someone comes up to you and complains, you people did this, or you guys did this, and a lot of people’s first reaction is to be, that wasn’t me. I wasn’t working that shift. No, you mean Sarah. Sarah is the one that messes everything up. You know, it’s that ego that gets in there. And I always told them, you are everyone at the hotel when you’re standing up here. And so just take it, apologize and figure out a solution because it doesn’t matter if it was Sarah or Bob or Henry or you and we’re all going to take responsibility even if it wasn’t necessarily you that lost that key or canceled the reservation or you know, any number of errors that can be made. Jenn DeWall:                      That’s really important because I think that happens, whether you’re inside or outside of hospitality where it becomes easy to say, well, I’m not the one that did that. And whether you’re working with an external customer, they’re not going to want to hear that. Or, whether you’re training a new employee, that’s not going to be something that’s helpful for them either. So recognizing that it’s just important to take responsibility and just suspend ego and not make it about you, but look at it about how you can create the solution to solve the challenge. Emily Hastings:                  Yeah, absolutely. And there’s definitely big challenges I faced working in the hotel. I remember I was a reservations manager. So I managed all the reservations that came in and out, made sure people got in the rooms they requested and like near their Aunt Sue or things like that that have to be done. And it was a big downtown hotel in Austin, Texas. And once a year, there’s a big event that some of your listeners might be familiar with called South by Southwest. And it grew from a little week-long music festival into this giant conference and expo that sells out the whole city and outside the city and goes for about a month. And so it starts out with a tech conference and an education conference, and then it goes into a film festival and then a music festival now. Yeah. So it is huge. Emily Hastings:                  And a downtown hotel that I worked at was a great location to be. You’re walking distance to the convention center where the middle, you know, the registration happened and a lot of the events and then all the venues downtown, are venues for the conference during that time. So it’s a perfect place to be. People wanted to be at that hotel. They booked years in advance and they spend thousands of dollars on their passes to the conference, thousands of dollars on airfare and thousands of dollars on their room. And so you can imagine it’s not a good time to mess anything up. Jenn DeWall:                      Right. That’s a lot of money on the line. Emily Hastings:                  It’s a lot. And so the conference itself books a block of rooms and takes most of the hotel. But then we have this very few rooms that we sell at exorbitant prices for people that didn’t get into the root block. And so those were mine to manage and play with. And if you’re not familiar with the hotel industry, it is common to overbook your property because there will be people that don’t show up. Jenn DeWall:                      Like the airlines. Making Big Mistakes at Work Emily Hastings:                  Yes. So you, if you want your perfect sell, fill every room for a night, that’s a perfect sell. And we would get bonuses and things based on that. So we’re motivated to do that. Then you had to fill every single room that night. That means no no-shows. No, somebody just moved their arrival to the next day, that kind of thing. And we wanted to maximize profit through the whole event. So I, at the last minute, one night, got talked into selling a room. We were technically sold out. The person hadn’t shown up yet and it was around 9:00 PM which isn’t that late for, you know, all the travel that’s coming and going but is after check-in time. And someone was willing to pay a really crazy amount of money for the room, but they wanted it for three nights. And so I knew that it was a little risk-taking, but I just said, you know what, I’m going to give it a shot. Jenn DeWall:                      Yeah, it was nine o’clock. You probably thought like the chance of a no show. It was probably high. Emily Hastings:                  Yeah. So I sold the room and about an hour later, Oh gosh. And comes to the person who it was reserved for, and literally everyone else checked in. Every room is full. There’s nowhere to go. So, you know, we had to find a room for this person, for this person who spent all this money to come to this conference. It’s been traveling all day and that I, if I remember correctly from overseas, Oh my gosh. So very tired, very cranky. I go, I have them sit in the lobby and have a drink brought to them while I call frantically every hotel in the area for a room for one night at least. And nobody has anything. It’s too late. Everybody’s filled their rooms and don’t have anything to spare. Can’t clear anything out for me. And I’m calling and calling and calling and I finally find a hotel in Round Rock, Texas, which is a good 45 minutes on a good day from downtown. That’s not their ideal location. Yeah. And so not only do I have to pay for that hotel room, I have to pay for car service to be available to take them to that hotel and to bring them back downtown in the morning and hope that we could find a hotel room downtown for them by the next day, which we didn’t. There was nothing we could do. So then we had to pay again for car service to get them around and to the other hotel in Round Rock. And they ended up having to do that for about three days of their stay. Emily Hastings:                  And then they landed back at our hotel where then I had to comp their room for the rest of the time because they were so furious and had missed so many things because they weren’t nearby. And I gave them free meals, free everything, points. Because it was completely my fault. I took a chance, it backfired and ended up costing us quite a bit of money. And you know, many, the conference itself was angry at the hotel because they were a registered attendee, so we’re supposed to protect their rooms. And so I had to face up to the, to the army of South by Southwest and tell them what I did and make amends to them. And you know, they’re a big powerhouse in Austin and they kind of run the show for a month and bring in just billions of dollars. So it’s like being in trouble with the mayor or something. Jenn DeWall:                      They know they depend on that tourism revenue. Taking Risks Means Taking Responsiblity Emily Hastings:                  Yeah. And it was definitely you know, very intimidating time, but I just had to take my licks and be like, I did that. I tried to do the right thing and get us our perfect sell, and I made a bad decision and that’s all there is to be done. You know, we found them a place to stay and it wasn’t great. And just one of those where there was no really great way to make it right. And I just had to take the, take the licks and, and hang my head. Jenn DeWall:                      What advice would you give to someone that maybe has or is about to make a decision where you don’t know? There’s a lot of ambiguity. You’re taking a gamble, Emily Hastings:                  Man. I mean, you have to take all the facts and use as much experiences you have. And I think maybe that night I could have asked for input from other people and that doesn’t guarantee we would not have made the same choice because in the end of the day we’re trying to maximize our profit. And that gets to be hairy business when you’re getting your crystal ball out and see like who missed their plane tonight and isn’t going to get here. So, Jenn DeWall:                      But it’s looking at it, it sounds like there’s the lens of, you had all of the facts that you could, and it wasn’t uncommon for people to not show up or to come in late for traveling. And so you made your best guess based on your past experience, which sometimes that’s all we can do. And that’s what people need to remember when we’re making mistakes. That, did you do your best? Did you think through everything that you could, you don’t have a crystal ball, so you’re just making the best guess that you can. And sometimes it’s gonna work out great and sometimes it may not work out this great and that’s okay too. Forgive Yourself and Move Forward Emily Hastings:                  And I think what else is really important, you know, it feels like the world is ending that day. You know, you just feel horrible, you messed up, things will never be right again. Everyone’s going to be mad at you forever, and you hadn’t shame and you just, you know, you have that pit in your stomach. And I think one thing that I really learned from situations like that is, you know, own it and apologize, but don’t let it keep eating you up. You have to also forgive yourself and decide what you’ll do better next time and then, you know, just dust it off and keep going because tomorrow’s another day and there’s a whole new mistake to make. Jenn DeWall:                      Give yourself permission to move forward. I love that. Emily Hastings:                  You can’t just sit in that forever because there was nothing to be done once it was done. And, you know, I could’ve just been like, Oh gosh, I have to quit my job or I should, you know, do something drastic or, but at the end of the day, I wasn’t the first person that oversold the hotel, and I won’t be the last. And you know, you just got to keep moving forward and doing better each time. Jenn DeWall:                      It’s all about the perspective and the new learn perspective. Sure. You had another work failed, and we are going to talk about which this one probably sounds. I mean for me it sounds extremely mortifying. Mortifying Mistakes at Work Emily Hastings:                  Oh my Gosh. So I’ll give you a little bit of background. I worked for a while at a nonprofit. It was called The Center for Out of Court Divorce, and it was a startup. And what we did there was help families that were going through divorce, figure out how do it amicably. I figured out how best to take care of the children and it was a neat center. We did counseling for the family, counseling for the kids support groups and then also actually help them mediate their agreement and do their actual court hearing at our center instead of like a cold, stiff courtroom, they got to do it at this center where they were comfortable and where their staff and counselors were there. And it kind of made it a more holistic approach to family separation and it’s really neat idea. It’s not open any longer. We ran out of funding, but I hope it comes back cause it was really cool. So picture this, a family has gone through the process. They’ve made their whole agreement. They figured out who gets what. They figured out their custody agreements with the kids and everything. They’re ready for their big day. They’re going to get divorced. And it sounds weird to say it like that, but actually the way we did it was kind of a happy day, usually like to have it wrapped up and finally be able to move forward. Emily Hastings:                  And so we usually do three or four families a day. We had a judge come in, and I was at kind of a legal assistant. I ran the court recording equipment. I did the paperwork; I notarized things. You know, I filed their original petitions with the court, that sort of thing. And in Colorado, you can’t get divorced unless you filed your petition at least 90 days before the court hearing. So on day 91, you can get divorced but not a minute before. And so while doing all the paperwork for the three families that came in and they were like, “Oh, we’d like to get divorced on this date that you have coming up for the judge is coming in. And I was like, yep, they’re good. They’re good. I have a little spreadsheet and the calculations that I put in there, everyone looked fine. And we got in there and this one family sits down, goes through their whole proceeding. You know, it’s kind of like the opposite of a wedding. It’s like, do you? Yes. Do you, yes, you get this, you really want to be divorced? Yes, we do. And the vet and the judge is going through the last bit where he has to read everything- I showed that you filed for divorce on. And then he looks up and he says, well, we might have a problem. And they were at 89 days from filing their petition because my spreadsheet calculated just month and year. And not the days. And so I messed up. They were only at 89 days and so he could not divorce them that day. And I was horrified. I had never been in a job like this before. You know, I’d been there for a few months and everything was new, but I just felt so much responsibility on my shoulders where you know the legal aspects of this and like what happens if they didn’t really get divorced? And I was just beside myself. And so they took a little recess and the judge thought about it for a minute and he came up with a plan, thank goodness because I had no idea what to do, not knowing. Finding a Solution Emily Hastings:                  And so he said, what we’ll do is we’ll finish the proceeding and then what happens is on day 91 we have to meet again, and you’ll sign the papers in front of me and then you’ll actually be divorced. But we don’t have to go through the whole hearing all over again. And he was very generous with his time and he made that happen and came in and they came in and we just finished up the paperwork part and I witnessed everything. And so they got their divorce. But it was just like such an easy little slip. And, and so going forward, obviously, I revised all of my systems. I made sure it was counting days, I’ll on my spreadsheet, but I also did visual checks of each copy of the paperwork in their file before ever saying they could schedule their divorce with that and made sure it never ever, ever happened again. Because I, you know, they were, it’s weird to say that they were so looking forward to being divorced, but they were! And just to have it be like, okay, maybe next Thursday. Jenn DeWall:                      And it’s already kind of an emotional situation because there’s things they are going through. And so then to prolong emotional day, that’s a lot. I’m sure you probably didn’t feel great. Supporting Others When They Make Mistakes at Work Emily Hastings:                  I just felt terrible. Like I let them down. They’d been through so much to get to this point. And then you’re, you know, in front of a judge, you know they are, he’s in a robe, he’s got the whole judge thing, you know, he looks regal. Luckily the judge that came in is so sweet, and we’re still friends today. And he was so nice to come up with a quick solution on the fly for us and, and make it happen and make some jokes about it and kind of, you know, break the ice after our recess and, and make everyone feel a little better about it. And without his experience as a judge and his demeanor, I don’t know what I would’ve done cause he really made everybody feel better about it in the moment. And that was a godsend because I was beside myself. Jenn DeWall:                      Gosh, what a great observation though about how if we have people that are listening, you’re a leader and your employee maybe just made a mistake, or maybe they’re not your employee, but there’s someone else who’s work impacts your own. In the case of the judge, how can you show up to be a leader, to diffuse the situation, To show that mistakes happen. It’s totally okay and to remain calm in an intense situation. I think that’s a lot of, and there’s a lot to learn about even when we are not directly impacting the problem, that there is a way that we can help to mitigate and reduce the consequences and make it overall better instead of trying to perpetuate the fail. Emily Hastings:                  Absolutely. And I think it embodies kind of what I said before about working at the hotel and how I would teach my employees that it doesn’t matter if Susie did it or Harry did it, we did it. And the judge kind of embodied that same spirit of like solution focus and not blame focus because you can sit around all day and be like, no, it’s your fault. No, it’s your fault. No, you did this but that doesn’t solve anything since. Skip that, go right to solutions and keep moving forward and then you can go back and do an autopsy and see what you should have done before the problem but in the moment, don’t point fingers. Find a solution. Keep moving forward. Jenn DeWall:                      Yes, those are great. Final words to end on. Emily, thank you so much for joining The Leadership Habit Podcast, and sharing your work fails. Emily Hastings:                  Thank you, Jenn, this was fun! Jenn DeWall:          Thank you so much for listening to today’s “Work Fails” minisode. If you enjoyed or if you know someone that maybe is in a similar situation, share this with your friends. Leave us a review. Our goal with work fails is to help everyone understand that mistakes happen and it’s not a matter of whether they happen, it’s about how we deal with them. So if you found this podcast episode useful for you today, feel free to share it with your friends or give us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Thanks for listening.   The post Minisode 2: Work Fails with guest Emily Hastings appeared first on Crestcom International.