The Leadership Habit

Values-Based Leadership with Dr. Christine Galib, Founder of Plan My Plate Intro: Hi Everyone! On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Dr. Christine Galib about values-based leadership. Dr. Christine Galib serves as the senior director of programs at the Ion. And in this role, she oversees the development and execution of programs, including the Ions accelerator hub in the aerospace innovation hub for minority business enterprises, workforce development programs, and academic network and mentor programs. She also directs the Ion Smart and Resilient Cities Accelerator. She does a lot. And if that’s not enough, she’s also the founder of Plan My Plate, which offers leadership management, creativity, innovation, and wellness consulting. Christine is a Teach for America alumna with experience and investment management, pre-medical studies, and educational consulting. Christine holds her bachelor’s from Princeton University, a master’s from the University of Pennsylvania, and a Doctorate from Drexel University. Her speaking, writing, and research interests include entrepreneurial mindset, development, creativity, innovation, leadership systems, thinking mindfulness, wellness, and apologetics. Enjoy today’s episode as Christine, and I talk about values-based leadership as well as adaptive leadership. Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. I am so excited to sit down with Dr. Christine Galib. Christine, we heard a tremendous introduction about you, but I want to hear it from your mouth. Could you please introduce yourself to the audience of The Leadership Habit? I want to hear about what you do, how you even got there, who you are, you know, we want to hear it all! Meet Dr. Christine Galib Dr. Christine Galib: Well, and Jenn, thank you so much for having me. This is such a pleasure to be on this podcast and just kind of stand in awe of everything that you’re doing. So thank you so much for having me here a little bit about me. The first thing that comes to mind, I’m a non-linear careerist. So what that means is that I’ve had a career in several areas, and they’ve all kind of been maybe related, maybe not, but I’ve always kind of learned to navigate to the next opportunity. And sometimes that means knowing when it’s time to step away from something; sometimes it means knowing when to pursue something else. And so that non-linear career kind of follows me throughout my life. Because I think first and foremost, I aligned my whole life to my values, and that’s rooted and aligned to my faith. So from there, that’s kind of my North Star, and then everything else aligns back to it. So non-linear careerist. Many people tell me that I think outside of the box, and then I ask them, well, what box? So box, I don’t even see a box, which must mean I’m a really creative person, I guess. Because you know, to me, we all kind of are enamored by creativity, but it’s really hard to define. It’s really hard to apply. Someone can think they’re creative, but if maybe they go through some type of schooling experience or another type of experience where they come out on the other side, and they think, well, I’m just not a creative person, and that couldn’t be farther from the truth. Everybody is creative; everybody has leadership potential. Everybody has this entrepreneurial, innovative kind of mindset. And it’s a matter of figuring out how your internal world, you, yourself, your personhood align with your external environment. And, and you can, if you think about those two kinds of in some type of dance or some type of interplay, what are the combinations in which the internal world comes up or brushes up against the external world? So creativity. So I’m a non-linear careerist, a highly creative person. And I’ve been described as a leader, so that must mean that I have some type of vision. So either I’m seeing things other people don’t, or, or I’m just a person, you know, going for a walk or something, thinking that people are following me. Yeah. What is Values-Based Leadership? Jenn DeWall: Okay. I absolutely from hearing you speak, I absolutely know that you’re a leader. I would love to work with you just to, you know, I’m sure even get that greater perspective of how much of an impact that you have in your organization. You know, Christine, one of the things- and what we’re going to be talking about today is values-based leadership, as well as adaptive leadership. But you mentioned it earlier, following your North Star, one of the pieces that are most important to you as you kind of created that non-linear career path is values-based leadership for our audience. What in the heck does that mean to have values-based leadership? What does that mean? Dr. Christine Galib: Yeah. And Jenn, that’s such a great question. It’s so relevant to today’s world. I just, you know, obviously kind of facing the COVID-19 pandemic, but even thinking back, you know, not just the past year- but the past 50, 60, 70 years- values-based leadership. So I’d say it’s identifying your own personal values that guide you and then sticking to them. And, and what does that really mean? That means communicating them to people because other people are never going to know your values if you don’t live by them, act by them. But, but if you don’t communicate them to other people, they might not, might not know. So, identifying your own personal values— and what do I mean by values? So that could be the things that get you upright in the morning. What, what do you want to live for? Right? What would you die for you believe in so strongly that you would die for it and then live for it, right? So it’s, it’s kind of sitting by yourself and, and identifying those top two, three things that if you had to put your life on the line for something, what would that be? Or who might that be? So that’s, values-based leadership, and examples of values can come from someone’s faith. My faith is very important to me. I can come from seeking the truth, right? This notion that the truth exists somewhere. And then maybe we’ve just got to find that it can come from integrity, from acting in a way that, you know, if no one’s looking, if, if no, one’s kind of seeing what you’re doing, what do you do in those moments? Do you take the shortcut because it’ll get you, you know, XYZ closer to whatever your goal might be, or do you think through what you’re doing? And you say, no, I’m not going to do this because there’s something that’s not right about it. It’s that self-awareness knowing that, that you have some type of awareness of your own values and your own self and your own character and knowing how that plays out with other people when you interact with them. A few other values of mine that, that I can share: a white-glove service approach and then an act like an owner mindset. And my very first career, I worked on Wall Street for one of my first careers and kind of my first day, it was almost like the ten principles of the firm, or, you know, some type of thing like that. And the two that really stuck out with me were this notion of acting like an owner. So whatever you’re doing, preparing a pitch deck, or cleaning the kitchen sink right in the communal kitchen, you know, holding the door for someone, walking into the building, act like you own the place. And, and that gives you the confidence and the mindset, not only of showing up with your best self but also kind of showing up to take care of things, to steward things whether that’s your pitch deck or whether that’s removing the milk carton that’s empty from the refrigerator. So someone after you doesn’t have to and then this notion of white-glove service, doing everything that you do with a servant-based leadership approach for the client themselves, right? So, giving your all to make sure that the client feels the way that you would like to feel if you were in their shoes. Values-Based Leadership and Relationship-Building Jenn DeWall: Gosh, I love, I love both of those because they’re, they’re just so essential whether it’s acting like an owner and even just thinking about if someone’s maybe discouraged at work, or they’re just not sure where the impact that they’re making. Start acting like the owner. Treat it like you own the place. And that doesn’t mean going and telling people how to do things, but take ownership and accountability for how you show up. And then the white glove service. I mean, I think that sometimes, especially when you get into that of maybe the client and the person that you work for, we sometimes forget about the servant-based leadership practice. I think it’s easy to apply that may be to our employees, to the people that we lead, how can we help them grow? But sometimes we just look at that, you know, business to the client as just very transactional. So I love that you bring that into a, you know, a way that no, we really can care and think about what we can do to create the best possible outcome. Sorry. Were you going to touch on that? Dr. Christine Galib: Yeah. You brought up a great word transactional, right? And we don’t live in a transactional world. We live in a relationship-based world. We live in a system of systems based world, right. Where, where everything is a relationship. And I think we do ourselves and our clients, our customers, our employees, our peers, our teams, we do them a great disservice if we view everything as a transaction. Right. Because nobody really likes to feel like, okay, well, let’s just get this over with so I can move on to my next thing. And at the end of my to-do list, all right, I’ve accomplished everything. Nobody really wants to feel like that. So cultivating a relationship, I think, is one of the most important things we can do in our world as we practice leadership in our world. So I wanted to underscore that because you brought up that great word transactional. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. It is. I think we miss it. And I’m curious, and I know we’ll get told when we talk about how do you practice your values or how do you even start? But thinking about, you know, there’s a value that you can use to associate into everything that you do in that relationship that can help differentiate it from being transactional. But before we go there, because I want to hear from you, this is all about you. So how do we practice this? And if I think about my perspective as a coach, and I’m sure you’ve seen this too, sometimes when you say like, what’s your purpose or what’s your value, it can feel really overwhelming, but how do you even begin to practice values-based leadership? Finding Your Purpose Dr. Christine Galib: Yeah. That’s such a great question. And you nailed it, you said it, what’s your purpose. And, and it’s like, okay, like the wind blows and the angels sing, and there’s this great big moment where you’re like “my purpose”! Jenn DeWall: Right. Dr. Christine Galib: I don’t know if you’ve seen Avenue Q, but there’s, there’s, there’s a great song in there about finding your purpose. And that’s, that’s a very big question for people. So I would say the first step, and I’ve mentioned this word before, self-awareness, right? Kind of bringing it right back down to the present moment before we start going with broad, big, amazing, bold creative visions, bring it right down to the present moment. And practice mindfulness. So I teach mindfulness. I’m a mindfulness practitioner. I teach mindfulness-based stress reduction as well. Jenn DeWall: You are so needed right now, Dr. Christine Galib: The past year has been, we’ve seen an uptick in need, not only for mindfulness but for mental health services. And that’s, that’s a whole other podcast coming. But focusing on mindfulness, because there are so many misperceptions of it, you know. Oh, I’ve, I’ve got to sit in this position, or I’ve got to have these clothes, or I can only do it if I’m in the room and I’m ready. And I love if our listeners, and if you would love to do a mindfulness exercise with me- Jenn DeWall: I just need to say this, does Dr. Christine not have the best, most calming voice, like you naturally have this voice? I can be relaxed with it. Yes. I’m ready for it. Dr. Christine Galib: So, so the, you, you asked how we practice this. And so I was thinking, and I said, we’re actually going to do it because what’s the best way to practice something most to actually do it. Right. This is proof, you know, for all of our listeners and for Jenn and for everyone listening. Let’s just kind of bring it back down to the present, and I’ll invite you just to maybe get comfortable wherever you are. If you’re seated, if you’re maybe standing, just feel grounded, straighten the back, letting the shoulders roll back, maybe closing the eyes, if you’re able to, and then just take a big breath in, then let it go. Big breath in and let it go. And then slowly, beginning to open the eyes, come back to the present moment. Jenn DeWall: It’s amazing how just calm that feels. And how long did that even take us to do that? Values-Based Leadership and Mindfulness Dr. Christine Galib: By the clock? Probably less than a minute, right? But that’s just one example of how we can begin to practice values-based leadership. Why is that such a great example? Because we dial into the present moment, focusing on the breath itself, the very thing that links moments to moments, to moments. Moments being the building blocks of those big milestones, right? So mindfulness is a key way to practice values-based leadership because it gives us that window into the stillness, the quiet, and to accessing our mind and our brain and having that space to bring present moment awareness. So mindfulness is a great way to practice values-based leadership. Active listening is another great way. We might’ve done some active listening in our mindfulness exercise. Maybe listening to your breath, listening to your body, maybe noticing things like how your feet hit the floor, right. So, active listening and then really empathy. And we’ve heard this word— empathy— tossed around so many times. And I want to challenge us a little bit so we can rethink empathy, not necessarily from a feelings-based perspective, right? There’s a lot of feeling involved in empathy. Think of how someone else is feeling, but from a values-based perspective. So thinking even a phrasing, right? If someone says, well, I feel XYZ, right? That’s great. That’s your feeling. That’s how you feel in the particular moment, but let’s approach this through the lens of leadership as a leader, saying something like, I feel— again, that’s great— but it’s a statement that is only about you. Right. But that’s great. You feel a certain way. Fabulous. Great. But what about when a leader says, I believe something, signaling their value. Well, now I hear that, and I can link my values to your values, or I can identify, well, we don’t have the same value. So, all right. End of story. No further conversation is needed. Right? So that’s, it’s kind of a, a little challenge for us. I challenge our listeners to approach conversations not from the “I feel” perspective but from the “I believe” perspective. I believe in access to opportunity. Okay, well, that’s signaling now because either you believe in that with me and we can move forward together, linking our “whys,” there’s a lot of literature around the purpose, and the why of leadership can link “why” from an I believe statement, but we can’t really link “why” from an I feel statement. Yeah. So it’s a powerful bridging device that gives us a way to practice values-based leadership. I Jenn DeWall: I’ve never actually heard it described like that before. I really haven’t. So the thing I’m in my brain, I’m like you’re right. It absolutely just saying I believe—if I think about myself— I believe we should have permission to show up exactly as who we are that someone else listening could then say, well, I might believe that too. That’s such an interesting connection and how you can build rapport, consensus, engagement, or just unifying people towards a goal. I really, really like that. Instead of just saying, I feel, which might, you know, take someone that’s like, why are we talking about feelings? Because we still have those people at work. Or, you know what, I didn’t ask how you felt. Dr. Christine Galib: It’s taken me here to come up with that. So it’s like kind of the reflection of what is really at work here because you know, you’ve got the people that say, well, the facts say this, and you’re like, I can’t handle the 20 million statistics that you’re about to throw at me. Right. And then you have the people that say, well, I feel this. And then it’s like, well, I don’t really care how you feel. Tell me about how I feel. Right. But then you kind of see those leaders, and they don’t explicitly say it, but what if we said, I believe this, right? So not “the facts say” because I can look up the facts, and they don’t particularly motivate me to act. Right? Right. Not I feel. But I believe now I’m motivated and you’ve, you’ve shown your values. And these, let me link my values to yours. “I Believe” vs. “I Feel”: Communicating Your Values Jenn DeWall: Oh gosh, you are like connecting dots for me. There was, there’s a storytelling thought leader that we work with, and she always says her name was Kelly Swanson, facts tell, but stories sell. And putting that together with how you just described it. If you really think about trying to motivate and bring your team together, this is another way your belief statement is a way to connect them to your core. That’s your story. They see a different side of you. I mean, think little fireworks of this is more authentic leadership. We’re not just saying, Hey, you know, the company is behind by 10% or, you know, we’re down at revenues by 10%. We’re not going to make that. Or I believe that right now, it’s difficult. But I know that with the resources that we have, we can figure out how to get back to a flat comp or even better. You know, I love that. There’s just so much purpose and intention in an “I believe” statement, Oh my gosh, Christie, I’m trying to still keep her down for my mindfulness. But then, you know, my natural resonating places up here. Dr. Christine Galib: Well, you are already touching a little bit on why we, you know, why values-based leadership is important? Jenn DeWall: Yeah. So why, why is it important? I love that you’re sharing, Dr. Christine Galib: I’ll say a few things about that because it helps the leader articulate not only their values, right? Not only the things that are their North Star that guide them in this crazy journey we call life. Right. But it also forces the leader to come up against their own mental models. So Peter Senge’s mental models, kind of the way that we see the world, right? Our internal pictures of how the world works. And most people don’t really surface these mental models. It’s just kind of is what it is. Right. We kind of walk around all day with our assumptions and our own biases, and everybody does it. Everybody has them, but values-based leadership forces us to discover, identify and name these mental models of how we see the world so that we can figure out, well, from these mental models, which ones do I keep? Which ones do I discard? And how do I create the change that I would like to create in the world such that it’s not just different but better? Right? So, so identifying your mental models really gets you to a place where you can motivate the people that you’re collaborating with to help achieve the shared vision. Jenn DeWall: Christine, I want to pull out something that you had just said because there’s a point where when we reflect on our mental models, it gives us the opportunity to go with self-awareness, which was one of the first things. But what does the discard process look like? If you’re like, Holy cow, I have this thought belief assumption, like how do you even start to kind of separate that from your world view? Dr. Christine Galib: Jenn, you’re asking a great question. And this is, this is a whole, a whole other podcast because this is a really difficult process for people. You’re asking, how do you know what you know? But you’re also asking how do you know that what you know is true, right? Which then really forces you to get into some pretty interesting exercises where you’ve got to hold up your own pictures of how the world works. And you’ve got to say, where did that belief come from? What was it? My own upbringing? Was it something I read in a book? Was it something my friend told me? Was it something I read on Facebook? And all of these different sources of information are now in competition with each other to help you understand, ultimately, do I keep or discard this mental model? And that’s what I think we should really be teaching in schools. But that’s, that’s a whole separate conversation. Jenn DeWall: Yeah, because it’s hard to- you might even recognize something’s hindering you, but you don’t. I mean, I guess if I go back to the basic notion of perfectionism. We, you know, it served me—oh my gosh, I can credit perfectionism for so much of my success— until it stopped creating success. And just, you know, but it’s still one that’s hard to get rid of. It’s really hard to toss that out when I got all of this data validation. Hey Jenn, when you do this, even though, but when by even believing that I have data in the past, I’m still somehow done. I think probably discarding the data that I have right now that acting perfection with what I know is not serving me and my energy and my innovation and my creativity, whatever that may be. So what are examples of- I guess what happens? So what happens when we don’t practice? So going into that— if we don’t practice our values, if we don’t know them or maybe if we don’t even do the process of figuring out what ones work, discarding the rest, What, what happens when we don’t pay attention to this? Dr. Christine Galib: Yeah. That’s a great question because if we’re not purposefully and intentionally discovering and communicating our values, we end up either running in circles or having no ability to find alignment in purpose. And so what do I, what do I mean by that? If we don’t take, you know, you’ve heard the expression you know, measure 5 million times, but once. Right. It’s measured twice, but once. But I go a few extra just to make sure. Right. But what if my measurement wasn’t correct the first time. What if I did something wrong? And I kind of say it jokingly but, but that’s where the process really starts is asking those questions at the very beginning and saying before I rushed to whatever I want to do, I need to dial it back and go from my own values. What would my value say as they guide me? Right. If I believe that access to opportunity is the most important value. How does that translate to this particular situation? If you don’t ask yourself that question, you’re going to end up instead of following your North Star, and where that leads you, you’re going to end up somewhere else. Right. Because if you don’t know where you’re going, then you’re going to get exactly there. Right? So that’s, I think we run into a lot of problems when we don’t have a clear sense of what’s guiding us. Jenn DeWall: Well, and that’s where I think that things like depression can be exacerbated. And I mean that if someone that struggles with depression, like I think that can be exacerbated when we feel like we don’t know, cause that purpose can be so helpful, and it is just motivating you or at least helping you see a place to go where, and I think it’s also good at, you know, even being able to reflect on your own self-love when you don’t know why you have value, then you might have someone else’s value that you’re applying to yourself. And that’s, you know, I think you probably see this all the time too. Like people are maybe in careers are taking actions that someone else said they should do and they’re miserable, you know? Dr. Christine Galib: And, and I couldn’t agree more. And something that comes to mind is Mark Twain’s words, right? Where he said, the two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. Right? The two most I get chills. Just kind of saying it, the two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. It’s not the day your parents found out why. If you’ve found out why— it’s not the day, you know, your colleague discovered why. It’s the day you find out why. That’s incredibly empowering, you know, as we talk about purpose and leadership and values, and I know we have a few more things to talk about too. Adaptive Leadership Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh, Christine, I want this podcast to go like 10 hours because there’s just so much value. But even just remind me, Oh my gosh, I just love even that last point about values-based leadership and thinking, you know, so what would be your final comment on that before we go into adaptive leadership if you had to give one final piece of advice to our listeners about finding their North Star, what would you say? Dr. Christine Galib: Yup. Oh, oh, I love it. So this is not my analogy. I can’t take credit for it, but if you think of a GPS, the GPS has the data. So it can get you from point A to point B, but the GPS doesn’t know why you should be going there. Jenn DeWall: You’re the only one that knows the why. Dr. Christine Galib: That’s always stuck with me. Jenn DeWall: I love that. And I think that reminds you too, that life isn’t an external action process. You know we can’t. We can set these goals that are outside of ourselves. We can accomplish these great things, but we still have to do that individual self-reflection to understand their whys and our motivation. Okay. Awesome. Thank you so much. Okay. We’re going into, you know, we have 10 minutes to basically cover adaptive leadership, which I’m sure can take us hours, Dr. Christine Galib: Maybe we can do a part two, right? Jenn DeWall: I absolutely would love to have you back on for another one. And I’m serious about that. So adaptive leadership, we see that more and more as a leadership trend. It’s something that, you know, we know that we need to be able to connect with people, to manage uncertainties such as the uncertainty that we’ve seen, but what is the definition of an adaptive leader? What does that mean to be an adaptive leader? Dr. Christine Galib: That’s a great question. And I actually, I live by the textbook definition. So when all else fails, go right back to the source because Heifitz, Linsky, and Grashow really changed my life when I read their definition of it. So I’ll just kind of read it right off for, from, from, you know, the actual textbook definition: adaptive leaders iterate on observing events and patterns, interpreting what is observed, developing multiple hypotheses about what is really going on, and designing interventions based on observations and interpretations to address the adaptive challenge identified. Now that’s a lot. Jenn DeWall: I was going to say that’s a lot there, You Have to Learn Before You Lead Dr. Christine Galib: All-inclusive. And that’s why it stuck out with me because there’s so much opportunity to break it all down, right? Iterate, observe events and patterns. To understand the system, understand that you’re looking at the iceberg, but what you’re really looking at is the tip of the iceberg, not the underlying reasons that are below the surface. Interpreting, coming up with hypotheses, being an inquiry-based, curious leader, right? Showing up to the table, not with your expertise as quote the leader end quote, but with a mindset that says, well, all my expertise really positions me not to give better answers, but to ask better questions. Right? So taking this inquiry-based approach to really put other people first and take that systems-thinking perspective, to identify and iterate on and be flexible and, and enjoy this cognitive process of kind of bouncing around multiple ideas without converging on one. And then interpreting what is actually observed. Can you take a video camera and just kind of record what’s going on and say, this is what happened and then say, okay, now I have to figure out why this is what happened. Those are two totally separate questions. And then that third piece designing interventions based on observed observations, what you observed not based on what you feel, right? Not based on quote, “anything else,” but based on what you actually observed. So a quote that I came up with very recently is you got to learn things before you lead things. So you’ve got to take the time to hold that magnifying glass up to the system. And then you’re in a position to lead the system. Jenn DeWall: I love the perspective of learning things before you can lead things. If I go to my even 20-year-old self as a leader, I either wrongly assumed I knew more than what I did, or I didn’t want to take the time. I just figured, like, I don’t know if I get to that position, I’ll just get there. I was never patient about learning. Or about just, you know, learning yes. In the academic sense. Absolutely. But the ego of wanting the promotion or wanting this was always the driver, but by this, it almost sounds like it’s a practice of, if you just slow down, so grounding yourselves, again, just like what we did with values-based leadership, then we can start to observe these patterns. And the other piece that you had said that I, I really found a lot of value in is you’re not looking at your own expertise as like, look at what makes me great, but you’re saying, okay, how can I use this data? How can I take this experience and use it to inform a different situation or to input on a different problem? If we’re designing something new, based on our observations, am I getting it right? Dr. Christine Galib: This is awesome. Yes. You’re getting it a hundred percent right. Jenn DeWall: I love that. We, you know, I think right, even by saying that you’re not looking at your experiences, data and successes as this endpoint to say, look how great, but it also then by saying that you’re in saying like I’m using my experiences to make something greater, you’re giving yourself permission to always learn, which then fights perfectionisms. I love that. You know, thinking why? And I forget the exact word that you used, but instead of I never heard it before, but you know, curiosity, we know that that’s important, but you had said observe something, and I’m blanking on the second word that you had. What was that? Dr. Christine Galib: Inquiry-Based. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Inquiry-Based I, you know, I wonder how someone’s workday, how that meeting that you might be just dreading, or maybe the meeting that you’re not showing up as the best version of yourself. Maybe you’re a little critical or jaded, and really applying that could change the way that you find solutions or collaborate with someone. What, how have you seen people really be able to leverage this? Or how, how have you leveraged adaptive leadership? Dr. Christine Galib: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think the starting point is kind of knowing your own values, right? I got to tie it back to the values, but to really leverage adaptive leadership, you cited earlier, you’ve got to have a lifelong learning mindset, right? In mindfulness. We talk a lot about beginner’s mind, right? Because when you approach a new situation, it’s a new situation by definition. It’s never been done before. And I don’t know about you, but because time progresses forward linearly, every single moment is a new moment. Every single moment is a learning opportunity. And, and once you kind of take that approach, you begin to really leverage adaptive leadership to see the system for what it is, right? That there’s, there’s a great moment in one of my favorite movies. And I’m dating myself a little bit, The Matrix, right? Where, and I don’t, I don’t want to spoil it if any listener hasn’t seen it, but I think you all might know the scene. I’m talking about when I say see the system, right? And Neo has this kind of new revelation. But you begin to see the world for what it actually is so that you can change it. So that it’s better and not just different. I think, you know, everybody wants to change and, and adaptive leadership. You’ve kind of always gotta be changing, but what are you changing to? Right? Some things I don’t want to change. Right. Other things, I want it to change yesterday. So what are you changing to? I think that is a really important question for us to ask. So that’s, I think really how we can leverage adaptive leadership is maybe kind of bringing our expertise to the table from an inquiry-based perspective rather than from a knowledge-based perspective. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. That’s one thing I want to walk away with this. Like I’m not there to only provide my knowledge. I’m there to ask the right questions. I’m there to inquire as well as think about what is our North Star that we’re working towards. Where do we want to be? Again, I just, I love that because it softens the expectation that I think leaders put on themselves to be able to figure out the answer, to know the answer to somehow has foreseen that before. And this one is just saying, no, we’re constantly just evolving. Every person you meet is your teacher and your student. You have something to gain from them. And I just love this. So adaptive leadership, you know? Yeah. It’s not just the, how can I modify my approach? How can I be flexible to adapt to maybe changing certain circumstances or an uncertain environment? Jenn DeWall: It’s also about bringing in the future and holding in a clear vision. So how so that’s where it starting with our values. I love this whole thing. Like we have to have both, you can have adaptive leadership, but that will very quickly turn into a tactical, I guess, action. Instead of it, meaning something to you, meaning something for your team, meaning something for your leaders, Christine, knowing that we have to end this, which I don’t want to, like, how, how would you, what would you want to wrap in terms of saying to our listeners, to the leaders that are hearing about adaptive leadership, potentially even combining their values-based leadership, what would you want to leave them with? Know the Power of Questions Dr. Christine Galib: Yeah. And I’ll actually leave us with just two things. Both of which I’ve said before, we’ve talked about, but just the power of inquiry, the power of questions. So stay curious and ask questions and ask the difficult questions. Even if you don’t have answers, don’t let that scare you. Because life really is not a multiple-choice test, right? ABCD. And I would always look for E, other, because creative for that. But if there’s anything that last year taught us, it’s the, you know, the world can change in two seconds. So stay curious and ask questions and find your North Star and, and let it guide you. Because once you find your North Star, its light will shine through whatever darkness you find yourself facing. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I want to talk about that at length too because I want to talk, Oh gosh, there’s so much, I have appreciated our podcast more than, you know, I love even this heart-centered servant-based leadership, but also very practical way to go about it. Christine, how can people get in touch with you? How can they connect with you? Where, where can we send them to? How to Connect with Dr. Galib Dr. Christine Galib: Yeah. So that’s a great question. I think we’ll link up my LinkedIn page. I’d love to hear, hear from you all there. I also am the founder of Plan My Plate at PlanMyPlate.com. So you can also check me out there, but I’d love to hear from you all. Jenn DeWall: And she’s honest, reach out to her connect. We can all learn from each other. And if you want to talk about innovation and a variety of other areas that Christine has deep expertise in, you know, you can tap into a lot. Christine, thank you so much for just taking the time to share with us, share your insights, share your experience and share your inspiration. I greatly appreciate it. Dr. Christine Galib: Well, Jenn, thank you so much for having me here. It’s a pleasure to know you. A pleasure to know that you are creating the change yourself that makes our world not just different but better. Jenn DeWall: Thank you. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you want to connect more with Dr. Christine Galib, you can go to PlanMyPlate.com, or you can find her on LinkedIn. Now, if you know someone that can benefit from this topic, please share this episode with them. Maybe they need some help finding their North Star. And of course, if you enjoyed this week’s episode of The Leadership Habits podcast, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service until next time.   The post Values-Based Leadership with Dr. Christine Galib, Founder of Plan My Plate appeared first on Crestcom International.

The People Side of Business with Brad Montgomery Full Transcript Below: Intro: Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I sat down with Brad Montgomery, and here’s what you need to know about Brad. Like you, happiness expert speaker and author Brad Montgomery believes happiness pays. It makes business sense to invest in the people side of the business. And that speakers should be engaging and have a useful message. Brad combines all of these ideas and a ton more into everything that he does on stage. He’s a very funny guy with some very relevant ideas about how to improve ourselves and the people around us. And he’s funny. Yeah, I said that twice. He’s a business owner, an author, a blogger, and an idea guy. And today we sit down and talk about the people side of the business. Meet Brad Montgomery, Keynote Speaker, Comedian and Magician Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I’m so excited to be sitting down with Brad Montgomery, as you heard from the bio, Brad is a speaker. He has worked with leaders all over the world, and we’re talking about how we as leaders can create more success for our organizations, for our teams, for ourselves, just by focusing on the people side of performance. Brad, can you please just go ahead and introduce yourself? I know that we’re going to have a great conversation. I’m so excited to introduce you to the cross tab network, but Brad, for those that may be unfamiliar with you. Go ahead and just tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, and how you came to really be focusing on the people side of performance and that leadership perspective. And I know you do many other topics too, but that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. Brad Montgomery: What’s up, Jenn? Thanks for having me, Crestcom network! I’ve missed you. Oh yeah. People side to performance. So I am a motivational keynote speaker. But I have this lifetime experience of being on stage, meaning right out of college. I started out as a comedian and a magician, so I’ve never had a traditional job, but that’s okay. I’ve never worked in a cubicle. I’ve never had, I’ve never had a manager. I’ve never had a supervisor. I’ve never had a leader. And yet ironically organizations bring me in to talk to their managers and their leaders about how to be better. So if that is in the crazy backstory, what is? And how about if I tell you what I do by telling you a funny story? So, yes. Jenn DeWall: Of course, yes. Brad Montgomery: By funny, I don’t mean hilarious. I mean, funny-peculiar. So, so Jenn, I’m a young magician and comedian and I just said, okay, now I’m a speaker. So I had this crappy speech called Stack Your Deck for Success, a Magician’s Guide to Change. And I had like T R I C K tricks – T stands for, and I don’t remember what it stands for, but it was just a crappy keynote, but I was young, right. I was super young. And I’m hired to talk to a really big computer company. Like there’s going to be 700 new supervisors, like youngest managers a computer company I wasn’t supposed to mention, but its initials, there are three initials and they rhyme with [inaudible]. So picture this, a young version of me, all kinds of anxiety. And I’m I felt like a fraud, right? Like I don’t have anything for these people. They’re going to know. And I’m watching them before me. Cause you know, I was, it was a one day program and I was sometime in the afternoon and the guy before me was talking to them about this incredible, incredible new concept called management by walking around. And I’m like, what? And what it meant though, this person was telling these managers, Oh, you have to stand up from your desk and you have to walk away from your desk and you’re going to have to actually talk to the people with your mouth to the people you’re leading. And I’m in a quarter thinking, like- I was feeling like a fraud a minute ago, but what are you guys for? Why is this not common sense? So the, you know, fast forward to present day, me, what I have learned, which is delightful and either both totally cool or a little bit alarming is that leaders have common sense too. So, you know, I don’t feel like I’m really teaching anything new to these, to my clients. But it turns out they need to be reminded like, Oh, you’re just because you’re a leader. Doesn’t mean you’re not supposed to be a kind person just because you’re a leader. That doesn’t mean you’re maybe not supposed to have a relationship with the people you’re managing. And, and in fact, maybe if you’d focused on the people side of performance, get it, see how I tied that in? Maybe you’d be a better leader. And in fact, like backed in science, of course, you were, but everyone knows that that would be the case. So I’m in this weird position where I’m telling people very smart people, things that they already know and getting paid for it. Can you believe that? The People Side of Business Performance Jenn DeWall: That is an important thing because I think that with leadership, we’d forget that we’re in the business of people, right? We think that there’s maybe a framework or a toolkit, that’s going to be a help. That’s going to help us maybe navigate something or say the right thing. Like you’re a human being, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to do this. Like, just remember to be a relatable person or just seeing people as people. Like, why do you think that people start to dress it up as like, yeah, just get out and walkthrough, but why do people dress it up? Maybe. Brad Montgomery: Yeah. I’d like to know your answer to that. I think part of it, is insecurity. Because we all want to look for the complicated answer. So we read these complex business books with complex business strategies. And I’m not saying that those aren’t great. Yes. You should read those. However, that doesn’t satisfy a very, to me, obvious thing that you better be pretty good with people. If you want to get the most out of your people. And if you’re a leader, I think the definition of that is trying to get the most out of yourself and those people around you in order to feed your organization. So not stepping back and saying like, what did we learn in first grade? What did you learn in middle school? Just strikes me as a really good idea. And as I said, the coolness is science backs it up. And it turns out that lots of leaders need that reminder, which is good for my business. Yeah. Jenn DeWall: People forget. I mean, why do you think people need that reminder? Why do they forget about this? That it’s something so simple, but yet we get into the throws of work, and we just completely like that goes out the window. Why do you think people forget about that? Brad Montgomery: Well, I think that’s such a good question. And I’m going to answer it as though I have like the single answer, which obviously I don’t, but I’m going to make it sound like I do nail it. I want to hear it. We’re human. So like right now, any leader who’s listening to this, I know a lot about you. I know that you’re overwhelmed. And I know you’re worried about your aging parents or you’re worried about your kids or you’re worried about your siblings. And I know that there’s a lot of stress on your personal life. Even if you’re getting along really great with your partner, you’re with your partner all the time and that’s hard and you know, you’ve got stress cause you’re worried about shots and you’re worried about, I just know you’re overwhelmed and now you’re doing everything online and you’re dealing with change. And this is on top of everything you were dealing with and let’s face it prior to March (2020), you were pretty overwhelmed too. Yeah. So, you know, you’re worried about your career and making your numbers or the quotas or whatever. And you’ve got to actually open those 122 emails. And I just know that even though I’d have to know you, I, I just know you’re nodding your head because that’s all of us right now. So the fact that any person who is that overwhelmed and I’m, I’m submitting it, everyone’s overwhelmed the fact that they’re not stopping to invest in people and stopping to think like, well, how could I make someone else’s day better? And would that, would that have any impact on my day? The fact that people don’t do that, it’s so normal. And so human. So we all need constant frequent reminders of, Oh yeah, don’t forget. You’re really good at this. But you sometimes get so busy with your stupid email and that new piece of software and the zoom meetings that never end you’re going to forget. So you got to listen to people like Jenn, Jenn DeWall: No, listen to people like you. Like, I love just thinking like, one piece is given yourself grace. Like you’ve got a lot going on. You’re not necessarily going to think, you know, in between worrying about getting sick or keeping your job or making those numbers, you’re not going to be like, but am I perfectly showing up as a great leader? It’s easy to forget about that when we feel those pressures are overwhelmed. I love that. How you described that. We’re not criticizing people that maybe have advice for how to do leadership, but it is just playing off the fact that we do remember that there are some very simple things we can do. We just forget. And I love that you’re going to open up a conversation again, as a reminder of why we need to position that. Leadership Starts with Relationships Brad Montgomery: I think the first thing leaders need to remember is just calm the heck down. Right? We all want to get our, can’t wait to try this strategy. I read it in the most recent leadership book I read. Yeah. And that is a good idea, but it’s just insufficient without having a good relationship with those people, with whom you work, and with whom you, you, those people you sell to your customers and the copy boy and the barista at Starbucks and definitely your family. Yeah. You know, the people you live with your neighbors, everybody needs a little piece of you and just calming down and reminding yourself. Right. Okay. That is part of my mission on this planet. It’s part of the mission with your career as part of your mission with your organization, Jenn DeWall: I guess, do you feel like-or, maybe this is my perspective, do you think that we get, or just one way that I see it, do you think that sometimes we just get so bogged down with trying to be everything to everyone else’s expectations that we forget about the expectations of ourselves, of how we want to show up and be as a leader and how we want to be as a human. Like, is that where some of these feelings comes from? I don’t know, just talking just me. Brad Montgomery: Do you feel like, I think people who are in the beginning of their careers where it’s always the same, like imagine yourself that those first times you got that job or, you know, the first time someone tags you as, Oh, you’re management material, we’re going to start you in as leadership track then, you know, we’re so worried about, am I wearing the right clothes? Am I saying smart things at meetings? You know, all the, did I reference a business book that I read to prove that I have a brain? And the irony is that when we age into being better leaders, just because we’re older and more experienced, those things become less important. We’re kind of a leader regardless of what we wear. And we’re kind of a leader, even if we don’t quote a business leader or a thought leader and we’re kind of a leader, if we don’t always have the latest jargon. Right. And we just have that gravitas and isn’t that ironic that it, you have to kind of grow into it, sometimes give yourself that permission to say like, right, that is not leadership. Jenn DeWall: What do you have any, like when I think about something I had to grow into, like one of the pieces that I absolutely still work on is even just feedback of looking at leadership instead of looking at it as like, if someone’s giving me feedback, that means that I must be doing awful. I’m the worst person on the planet, which again, puts me further away from my colleague with who I’m supposed to be working with. Because I have a bad mood. You know, when you think about all that stuff as I think about ways that I’ve had to grow in and still growing, right. It’s still absolutely growing. We’ll be growing until the day that I am not here anymore. But curious if you have any ways that you feel like you’ve kind of aged into leadership through your lessons. Confidence, Feedback and Vulnerability Brad Montgomery: To me, it’s all about confidence, which is related to that feedback, isn’t it? Yeah. Somebody comes up to you and says, Jenn, you are a total rock star. Let me tell you 12 reasons why you are a total rockstar. That sure feels a lot better than I need to give you some feedback. So like I think it speaks to us on both sides. Like if we’re that person receiving the feedback, it’s terrifying who wants that? There’s not one human on the planet who is super excited about a 360-degree review. That sucks. But I think the next thing is to use that as a tool, once we recognize that in ourselves and, and admit that that is true in every other person that makes us a kind of a super-powerful leader because we know that about everyone we’re leading and we know that all those people who we are reviewing or giving critical feedback to, they need, we know exactly what they need because they’re just like us. They want to be told they’re better or they want to, they want to be told that they’ve, they’re in the right job and they’re doing okay and they’re not, you’re not done yet, but you’re on the right path. Jenn DeWall: They had a coaching session today for Crestcom and you know, that was one of them, I think I’ve given the example like you’re not stupid just because you can’t do this. You’re not this, you’re not this. And you know, their first response is how did you get into my head? I’m like because everyone thinks that we’re all so dang rude to ourselves. We’re not kind. And we don’t hold space. And that’s, you know, that I guess is probably the first place that we kick out faulty programming because we forget to be nice to the person that needs it the most. People Will Always Have Insecurities Brad Montgomery: I was listening 10 to this thing has now been two or three years. It was on national public radio. And they have this thing called StoryCorps where they just interview kind of it’s their most delightful stories. They were interviewing two different people. The first was like, I’m going to make it up-  82-year-old dude who had moved into an assisted living center or a nursing home five years ago. And he was talking to a younger person who was in her mid-sixties. And she was moving into an assisted living place for the first time because her husband really needed help. And she was just super terrified and insecure about what’s going to happen. What’s it going to be like, and this guy did I mention he’s over 80? He was saying, Oh man, when I came to this place, I was worried about, was I going to have friends when I have someone to eat with, would I fit in? Would people want to be with me? Would I be lonely? And he’s explained to this younger woman like that’s how I felt. And it really worked out well for me. And I’m sure it will work for you too. But I was struck with, are you kidding me? We’re never going to get into junior high. And also, boy isn’t that powerful? Because if, if we can just remember that, okay, even 82-year-old successful people with nothing but a positive track record, if they’re insecure and needy and they crave the feeling of belonging, then maybe we can give it to those people who have earned it in our lives and you know, help move them forward. Which of course we know moves us forward. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. Yes. I, that is a great story of just reminding us that we can’t escape this. There’s not going to be. And this is, I think maybe even comes full circle on the thing. There’s not going to be one right tool that will work for the rest of your life, that you can avoid this type of may be feeling like you want to be some more supported, connected, engaged, seen as valued. That it’s something that we have to do that work on ourselves. And it’s something that we have to continuously do work. And we can’t just read a book and like wash away all, you know, our feelings. Like that’s not ever how that’s going to create meaningful change and we’re going to likely need it again with the desk next to change, you know, for moving to a different facility, we’ll need to remind ourselves again. I love again that you’re bringing this up as a reminder. How would you, like, what are some of the ways that you try to remind people again, to focus on that people side of performance? Brad Montgomery: Well, you’ve been a victim to it already. Sorry. I was working on it! Well, you know, people respond to stories, and even very seasoned, experienced leaders still respond to a good old once upon a time. And I, I think if, like, for example, if that story about the 82-year-old talking to the 65-year-old appealed to you, just remember how it feels and then guesses what we all get to repeat that skill. Oh right. People remember things if it’s attached to a story. So I believe like when I talk about the people side of performance, I can write my message down on a sticky note. Jenn it’s like use emotional and social support strategically to build others up in order to help them get what they want, which by the way, helps you get what you want. Jenn DeWall: I love that you said to help them get what they want. Like, and then obviously it will do that. But people forget about that part because they to say, how can I get what I want? It doesn’t matter what they necessarily want because I need to do X or solve this or be at this place. I that’s a great, Brad Montgomery: It’s so interesting to me that you like that piece. Because I feel like the marketing part is the selfish piece. I think Jenn, I don’t know the answer to this. I’m curious what you say. It seems to me, leaders are frequently told you need to build others up so they can be better at their jobs. So we can build our numbers there. They’re told to, you know, come from a place of service, servant leadership, but we don’t often tell them what’s in it for you. Like, yeah, it’s good for your career. And I’m telling you, so I guess that’s your job, but oh, you know, wildly satisfying and gives you meaning and purpose. And then, by the way, it’ll just make you, you know, dollars will improve. Your bottom line will improve if you think of others. So that’s why I’m so fascinated. I think that the second part is the interesting, hidden part where you thought serving others was the interesting part. Jenn DeWall: It’s mainly the reason that I feel that way is because sometimes people have a reluctance to want to have someone else shine because then it comes back down to not wanting to maybe expose themselves as not being the best or the smartest or the fraud, you know, whatever the name society has for that. Like, and that’s why, because I think people sometimes then think, well, maybe it’s not about that. It’s the survival of the fittest thing. And I think trying to create that the wrong way. So I hear you. I absolutely agree. Like you have to think about others, but I think that that can be hard for some people, if you’re not standing in your own confidence, because you’re like, well, the second I make that better, then I’m just might as well just get my walking papers, walk right out the door. Like I think some people still have that. And then I empathize with them too, because I just wish I could be like, you are great just the way you are. You’re just shining your light on people, right? Brad Montgomery: Yeah. You and I are preaching from the same page I think, but I’m not, I’m not advocating we lie to people, but man, there’s a lot of compliments we can give without lying. Yeah. Encouragement. We don’t have to struggle to find Jenn DeWall: Well, and right now you got to work harder at that. If you’re still remote, I think people forget that they might have said something to someone walking by like, Hey, I really appreciate you that you don’t get to see anymore. And so then it just goes without being said, and it’s a missed opportunity. So I, yeah. It’s I know we’re, we’re speaking from similar pages, but I just appreciate the way that you, you talk about it. So starting with like thinking about for them, will you repeat that statement again? Because I, I do love that statement and how you defined it, right? Brad Montgomery: Oh, that’s so cute that you think I have that memorized. I don’t know. Jenn DeWall: You’re like, okay, nevermind. But I also love that too, because it’s not a canned response. It’s just thinking through of like, Hey, you’ve got to make sure that like if you want to be successful that you’re also thinking about their needs and you can help them grow. And it will also help you grow, give like trust in that. What would be like other pieces of how you would maybe advise someone to get better connected and more personal and I guess for lack of a better way? Because we’re all humans like the more human-centered. Yeah. Brad Montgomery: So I see what you’re doing and you’re doing a great job because you are a master interviewer. You’re trying to push me to the next topic. And here’s what I’m gonna do is just push back and say, Nope, we’re staying on the first topic because I think this first one is so big and it’s so important. And it’s really easy to say, Oh yeah, I got it. And then dismiss it that are just going to go right back to it. How’s that? That’s good. I think this is such a huge thing. And like we’re not when organizations have me come in and I speak for an hour to their leaders, I have one idea for 60 minutes. And I think the reason I’m successful at my job is that means I have five minutes to explain the idea and 55 minutes to convince them. And I think it’s worth the time to not just have them understand it, but to feel it and feel like they care. So we’re back to social and emotional support as it relates to performance. I think a very concrete thing for people to think about is to give strategic or give compliments and encouragement strategically. And part of this is to get over yourself. And the next time you think yourself to yourself, well, they already know that they already know they’re doing a good job or there, they already know that I like them. They already know that I respect them. Next time you say to yourself that the answer is probably, yeah, they probably don’t or they haven’t heard it enough. Everybody craves that feeling of you’re doing a good job and I think virtual is worse. And two, this allowed me to tell you a story I’m ready. So Jenn did, as we record this, the Super Bowl was just yesterday. So you know, mammoth American football game and in the middle of they have the big halftime show, which means a pop singer, you know, holds the stage for 10 or 15 minutes, super prestigious to be that musician. And it was a guy called The Weeknd. Did you see the show? Yes. Jenn DeWall: I didn’t necessarily watch the game but I watched the show! Brad Montgomery: Here’s someone, this, this guy, you know, the top of his game and such a compliment to be asked to do this. And he does a massive complicated show for 10 minutes. And by the end, he’s kind of down on the football field himself with 150 dancers. And then he sings his last note and they cut to a commercial. And all I could think of right then is that guy immediately is texting his friend. Did it go, okay, how do I do? I don’t know. And what a lot of people would say like, well obviously you were the Pepsi star of the game, the halftime show. You’re obviously killing it. What other, what other hints do you need? That you’re a rockstar literally. And I’m, I’m telling you that guy was super insecure, right afterward going, did I suck? What’s Twitter saying, am I bombing or doing it? The Power of Compliments Brad Montgomery: And to me that’s instructive because I feel like that I don’t know this guy named The Weeknd and maybe he’s a narcissist and does not feel that way. But my gut says he totally felt that way. And I think it’s just such a powerful reminder that that means those people who are reporting to you right now are at home and they’ve got kids at home or they have to find something to say to their partner at dinner again tonight, even though they’ve been working with them full time or like everybody’s just really having a tough day. And if you were to stop the tray and say, Oh Jenn, while you’re doing that interview today, you killed it. You’re, you know, I think your skill is good as you were, you’re getting better. And I can’t wait to see what’s next. Right? Why wouldn’t that make everybody on your team better if you took the time to do that? Jenn DeWall: I love that example. I mean, there are so many things that came to mind as you were sharing. You know, obviously, just even the reminder like you and I are in pretty, I would say very public-facing position. So, and I think, especially in the day of virtual where you don’t get the direct audience, it’s easy to be like, did anyone like this? It was the best performance ever. It doesn’t matter. But you know, so I think I can relate to that as an individual because it doesn’t matter how many, you know, great things that someone will say to me. It’s the one thing that someone says, that’s awful that I like still hold on to, even though I know that’s not what I’m supposed to do. Right. But if I think about a friend like a conversation I had with a friend today and they get recognized on LinkedIn for being a great leader and right? Great thing! That’s something that one of their employees was like, I really appreciate your, you know, your leadership, your support. But this person was like, now I just feel really uncomfortable. And you know, why I think they feel uncomfortable is we’re not even used to giving feedback to the person up there. It needs it too. We’re so, you know, we think that we need to just push it down and we forget that it needs to go both ways. Like my friend, I’m like, what is this thing about you? Like, are you not valuing yourself or are you not seeing like your own, you know, efforts to, but I think that’s so important just to remind people that it doesn’t matter what level you’re on, if you’re The Weeknd and you’re just, you know, got done, doing a great Super Bowl performance that people really enjoyed. You still are texting your friend like that. Brad Montgomery: Right? Did I bomb? All I knew was the camera turned off and the football players came back on. Jenn DeWall: Well, that’s what a webinar is for, you know, Brad Montgomery: Any day of anybody’s life virtually when you send in the report or the project and your boss says like, got it. You know, like it took me four days. That’s it? Got it. That’s it? Does that mean you hate me? Does that mean my report sucks? Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. Yes. That’s absolutely the first place that people go. And I think that like, I mean when you study that human side, I think you do get it right. Like it is not just some like tool or framework. We have to understand how are we even show up as individuals before we’re starting to apply some of these great tools that are out there. Leaders Need Hugs Too Brad Montgomery: It’s so funny. I think there are two steps. Because I’m usually when I’m asked to work with leaders, I’m reminding them to use this concept. Hey, when you strategically invest in others, it makes them better. And guess what? That’s good for you. So we teach them how to do that for others. But what I’ve learned also is that leaders crave the same thing. All the leaders I work with, they’re just like, they’re just like The Weeknd, right? Leaders are rarely told, Hey, you’re killing it. Wow. Yeah. It seems like you were good last year. I think you’re even better. That’s amazing. How are you getting better? Like leaders don’t get, they need hugs too. The leaders are care bears on the inside. They just hide it better. Everybody needs that basic human thing. Jenn DeWall: That’s a good slogan- leaders need hugs too. Because if I think about the staff, when you are maybe a more visible part of your organization, you’re maybe a higher level organizationally leader. Yeah. The stuff that comes your way is going to be typically, like, if you think about that, it’s going to be criticisms. Like more like I’m frustrated or I don’t like this. And I don’t like that. And yes, I get it. It’s their job to be able to manage a certain level of that. But they still need to feel like you’re a human being that we care about. It’s not like they just sign up. Like I would like to accept all of your complaints and the things that you get from this company for the rest of my life. Because I just thought that would be really enjoyable Brad Montgomery: You know In the kiss-up category of the podcast. If you report to somebody, imagine how well, imagine how blown away you would be. If somebody who reports to you comes and says, Hey, you know what? I think you’re a good supervisor. I’ve learned with you. Thank you. You treat me well, I think you’re good at this. That would blow any of us away. Right. So, you know, you could do two things. One, if you encourage that person who leads you, especially if they deserve it, man, it wouldn’t not feel good. And by the way, wouldn’t that be a decent kiss-up? Jenn DeWall: Yeah, a decent kiss-up. But I wonder what your thoughts are on like even, Oh gosh, empowering someone to take that. Right? Because if our leader, I think if I, if I’m just going to use myself as an example, right. I’m a pretty ambitious person, incredibly hard on myself. So that means, you know, if someone writes me something really, you know, nasty after this like I don’t worry. I read it and I internalize it. I’m a human. It will hurt. But sometimes even on LinkedIn, like if I do something and someone writes me a message and they’re like, Jenn, you know, I appreciate it. X, Y, Z, you did this. Like, I still can’t even look at it because I’m like, I don’t know. I probably did something wrong. Then I missed it. Like, and so in that is legitimate, it was not until, and I’m not kidding, Brad. It took me last week to finally go through a slew of LinkedIn messages and say, just say thank you to people because it was that hard. And I bring that up because I know that I’m not alone. Right? Like other people struggle too, but they just maybe don’t have a platform or they don’t know how to articulate that. Like, Hey, positive feedback is still really hard for me. So I would be curious even how you can get like what insights, not that you have to have an expert answer, but even thinking, how do we even get better at being kinder to ourselves to say like, we are even worried of like receiving that feedback. Brad Montgomery: I don’t know. If you figure that out, will you tell me because I need that too? There’s this cool study. I wish I could tell you what it is if I could remember, but Oh, a well-meant compliment that is equally well-received spills, dopamine, and serotonin into both people. All right. Let that soak in. So, I mean, I give you a compliment. I get a little dopamine, but if you don’t really accept it, well, I get less dopamine and you don’t get any. So that means there is a scientific benefit if you and I can become better at receiving compliments and become a little bit less worried about this. And, you know, take those compliments that I know you’re getting and, you know, let them wash over you. Because the givers, you know, when people give us compliments, they’re going out on a limb and it’s terrifying. I’m with you. It’s just not easy. Jenn DeWall: My husband up until last year read every single card that someone ever sent me because I couldn’t bear to read it. I can’t believe I’m saying all this, maybe this isn’t smart, but I do think it is important to talk about that because you bring up a really, really great piece that you’ve got to like also work at receiving it, right? Like people can tell, you know, if they’re going to get the benefit of that serotonin release in that connection, like you’ve got to also receive it and like, appreciate that someone took the time to be able to, to share with you, like the value that they have in you and like, and see like, maybe they are right. Like maybe there’s something that I’m not, you know, kind and reminding myself that I am there and just that you have to do the work, too of receiving it. I think that’s really good to actually show that if you want that to have the beautiful impact or the scientific impact that it can, and that overall improvement of our mood, like you, you have to show up too. Brad Montgomery: Yeah. So, but get this just like you when, whenever an organization, especially if they just let everybody in the audience do an evaluation, I hate those. I never ever look at them just like you, my partner, my wife reads them. And if they’re in the rule is if there’s something to be learned from it, she’ll pass it on as like, Oh, this person had criticism and it’s really valid. Then I look at it. But the ones that are like, I didn’t like your suit. I thought you talked fast or whatever. I don’t like the story of the dinosaur. I just not helpful. And I do you know, I’m like the rest of us, it doesn’t make my day better. It doesn’t make my business better. So I try to hide from it. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Like what if, like, how do you think work could just change? If we all just, all of a sudden said, you know what? You have thoughts that aren’t productive to what we’re doing. And I have thoughts that aren’t productive. Like, I mean, how do you think the work-life would change if we actually just saw each other? The People Side of Criticism Brad Montgomery: Well, first of all, the planet would stop spinning and we’d just fly off. Yeah, wouldn’t that be? But that goes back to, I think that can be earned. And so back to the, our listeners, you know, I know everyone here is trying to improve their own leadership and their own culture. If it becomes your culture, that they trust you and know that you admire them and know that you trust them and know that you rely on them, then, then you have earned the chance to be a little bit more real with them without offending anybody. So I think you and I are agreeing, we’re not saying you don’t tell people when they’re making a mistake, you don’t tell people how they can improve. This is not what we’re talking about. We’re just making people feel safe, safe to take risks, safe, to grow, safe, to take criticism. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Well, and creating, you know, it’s all about that. And maybe this is, you know, just thinking about the, how we even say things like there, I’ve got, we’ve all gotten, you know, not great feedback from a boss, but what if that one piece of feedback was just said, even in a, in a more human way, like as if you were a person with feelings, I wonder how that would have actually changed whether or not you needed, you know, someone broke down in tears or whether or not you had to schedule a follow-up meeting because the meeting was derailed. Like just thinking, you know, what level of sensitivity should I have or how could I say this in a way that, because yeah, we’re not saying like, you know what, the key to this is just assuming that we’re all just nailing it, killing it past, never, ever try to make someone that’s not life. And we know that that’s not the reality, but I mean, it’s still trying to be kind and understand that we’re all sitting in very similar shoes of our own criticism. And matter of fact, like whatever you’re adding on, probably doesn’t even touch like how someone is, I guess my favorite quote. I know. And I’m sure you’ve read this book. Like I love it from The Four Agreements is the greatest abuse the human will ever endure is the abuse inflicted upon them by themselves. And when you think about that kindness, just as a starting point, like know that if someone groups up as an employee, they are likely ruminating it and they still need to hear it, they need to understand like the consequences, but you don’t avoid it. Brad Montgomery: Right. And you know, there, there is because I’m a motivational speaker, so I’m paid to be optimistic. So I get that. And there is ugly side of this business, which is, some people are not going to respond and they need to be pruned. And then you’ve got an HR problem. So all that exists, some people are not meant to be on your team, but for those people you’ve committed to, I’d say they probably could use your, they could stand to invest a little bit, which just means get up, leave your chair, walk to them, metaphorically people. It’s a pandemic. Don’t be crazy, but you know, walk to them and maybe be nice. Jenn DeWall: Ask them how they’re doing. How are you doing today? And not just waiting for them to say fine. So then you can walk away and check the box. The People Side of Performance Management Brad Montgomery: I was talking to this leader and it’s relevant that she’s a woman, she’s a kick woman. She’s near retirement age. So she kind of busted through corporate America when it was really hard because of the way our society works. She, you know, she’s a total rockstar. And she was telling me these stories of how she mentors younger women and how this woman was really struggling and whatever. And she finally found out this, a woman’s going through some major troubles in her personal life, but it took weeks for this. The woman was about to be fired. And it took weeks for the younger woman to say like, okay, here’s, what’s really happened. And I’m not positive what my point is, but you know that leader rocks and guess what she did not fire that younger woman. And she pulled that in. And that, that younger woman will now kill for her. See, she has got a forever ally in that younger person and a younger person still has all the tools. You just had a tough year. But what was striking for me is that the more experienced leader knew that this is about people. This is not about metrics, and it’s not about the report or the, you know, what is the work product this week? It’s about people. Jenn DeWall: You know, just thinking about how people sometimes need to be open, to changing their assumptions, changing the judgments that they’re having for someone else, if they truly want to have that connection and to be able to help someone like maybe that story that you shared to that woman could have been a really valuable team member. And then life happened. Something happened outside of work. They’re not, we’re not supposed to talk about that because I still think that myth lives on and work that we’re supposed to somehow keep that stuff separate is. So I’d love to know the person that can do that. I would save myself so much stress if I could just turn it on and off, but no, I wouldn’t want to be that person. But like, you know, just knowing that coming at it from the human perspective, you then retain that institutional knowledge. You obviously built high engagement. As you were saying, that person will want to work for you. They’re going to be very committed to you. Like, I don’t know. I just wish people would challenge. Like maybe what else, what else? You know, like being curious, what am I missing? Brad Montgomery: Well, I think you nailed it. You said what would happen in our world if everybody just committed to showing up like, wow, that was such a simple and brilliant sentence. You go, Jenn, Jenn DeWall: I don’t know. I can’t repeat anything. But what, I mean, what, what does it mean in terms of, you know, I’m curious what your perspective is on how we show up, like what if we’re having an off day. Right. And we maybe have had, let’s just say that we’re in that place of overwhelm, that we have a tendency to live, like, you know, we’re overwhelmed, we’ve got a lot going on. And then all of a sudden it doesn’t matter who it was. They happened to come into our Zoom meeting and we’re just frustrated. We take it out on them. What does a human-centered approach look like from your perspective of even being able to recover when we’re not showing up? Maybe in that place that we could be? Brad Montgomery: Yeah. That’s an interesting question. I don’t, I’ve never been asked that. Well, I don’t know, but I’m married. So I have a lot of experience trying to live with the same person for 27 years. So I’m killing it. Yeah, Jenn DeWall: You are. Congratulations. Brad Montgomery: You know, part of what I’m learning with Kim is like, when you screw up, you better be pretty quick to apologize. And it definitely helps. It helps me when Kim is having a tough day and tells me, Oh, I’m really grumpy because of this, like, boy, doesn’t that just help it. Then we give them more, more space. So it seems like that ought to account in the business world too, just to say, my dog died, I’m really grumpy and sensitive and I’m going to need a little, I’m going to just, I need you to be supportive today. I’ll do my best more if I snapped at you, I’m sorry. My dog died. Jenn DeWall: I love that. Even asking, just for permission, whether it’s maybe to your boss, like just seeing like, Hey, would it be okay if you know, I had my camera off during this zoom meeting because this happened and I’m not going to be showing up. Right. Like, or to the boss, like if they even said, you know what, maybe we can push our team meeting to tomorrow because this just might be better given what’s going on. Like, we have people feel like we need to put on our armor and just carry out the task, like without ever having any type of adjustment to plan. Even if there is an adjustment to the plan. Brad Montgomery: When I was a very young man, like just like a couple of years out of college, I’m a comedian, a magician, that was my full-time job. And I had these, this is back pre-internet and I would take these press packets that I had made at Kinko’s copy back when there was a Kinko’s copy. And I drove him to the postman and sent these packets out and I, the postman said, well, okay, you want stamps? What do you want? Do you want the business stamps or the flag stamps or the heart stamps? And they said, Oh, flag stamps. I don’t want the love stamps. This is business. You know, picture of this very young guy, well it’s business and this postman. So it was the choice was love or business. And he said, why not both? Whatever. He put stupid flags on my thing. Love is Good Business Brad Montgomery: So, but then I did think about it later. Like, yeah, why is love was separated for business? And I am not a very touchy, feely guy. So, anyone who was freaking out- thinking he’s talking about love and business– run! Not really, but I am saying all of the things that are true with us in our personal relationships, caring and commitment and vulnerability and you know, just honesty. There is no reason to think those things don’t work in business too. Whether they’re your clients or your people who report to you or the people to whom you report all those things are still there. Love. So I’m not, you know, don’t get, I don’t, don’t write me a letter. I’m not saying love on your employees, but I’m kinda saying like, love on your employees. Jenn DeWall: I, you know, maybe I don’t even remember, but like, thinking about hearing this, right? We complicate careers, everything all of a sudden, when it comes down to the career gen versus the, you know, the outside Jenn has to be a different person. Well, we don’t realize our careers become our little mini families. And how would you want a family to operate? Like, what are the things that you want in a good family? Is it active listening? Is it support? Is it love? But yet, somehow something that we now spend more time with than probably our own families where like, that, that stuff probably doesn’t work there. I don’t know. Cause that’s Brad Montgomery: I don’t want them to know anything about the real me, haha! Jenn DeWall: I know we can joke because obviously Brad and I are pretty open about this, but we also obviously are sensitive to the fact that it can be really hard. Like how would you even get someone to start to like, to just, I mean, I know I, like, what do you do if you make a mistake? You got to own it. But what if someone is still really programmed or around that belief that I don’t know, I have to keep these separate because if I show them that I’m like this, they may, I might lose my credibility. Right, right. Or I might, you know, lose my impact with them. Like how do you maybe tell that person that’s really reluctant? Like what is maybe one thing they could do to like, try to build that up a little bit to flex that muscle? I mean, there’s a lot of things that can do, but like, I’m just curious where from your perspectives, maybe some of the things that you’ve seen have an impact on people. Brad Montgomery: Well, the people who are the most- their armor is the thickest. Their shell is the thickest, you know, first, it’s like, do you really know it? Because you know, some people work with me and don’t think they’re like that. And they’re just wrong about themselves. They think they are open, but you know, any four-year-old would say like, I’ve never seen you have an emotion. You’re not open. I don’t even know if you have, do you have a mother? I don’t even know. So maybe the first step is just to challenge people to say like, where do you think you are on a scale? How vulnerable are you? And you know, and if you’re interested in being a little bit more, more vulnerable, and I’m not saying you have to be, but I’m just saying science teaches us. It’ll make you a better leader. So if you want to be more vulnerable, maybe you either physically write out a list or in your mind talk about what would be the least risky things to do on that. To let your people know you have a personality and what would be the riskiest things. And then guess what avoid the riskiest things and start with easy ones. So for some people, it’s going to be literally smiling at work. It’s going to be crazy little stuff for it’s that IBM crowd who was told, you’ve got to stand up out of your chair. You got to leave your chair and talk to people if you want to be a leader, you know, like these are very, very small. The bar is tiny. And then, you know, obviously, you don’t even want to look to see if there’s any success. Hey, if you smile at work or a smile at that meeting, how will that change the tone? See if you can tell, Hey, if you just take a chance and give somebody the lamest compliment and say like, Hey, your report was turned in on time. Well, job well done. See how they respond. Meaning just be safe. Jenn DeWall: I liked that you gave a ranking system because I think that is helpful because I think when people hear the word vulnerability, it’s like, well, how much of my secrets? Or what do I need to share? Like, I don’t know. You know, and that brings up a different thing, but you’re just recommending, you know, rank them like, look at what would be something that’s small. I don’t, you don’t have to do your high, you know, vulnerable things. That’s not what we’re saying enough. Just spill all your secrets, but it could be as simple as smiling, which I don’t, I don’t know if you have this observation, but one of my favorite things about the pandemic now is I smile at strangers so much more because they can’t tell, Brad Montgomery: Oh, I’m killing it in the smiling department! And they don’t know! Jenn DeWall: I think they can feel the energy! Brad Montgomery: Can they tell my eyes are smiling? Jenn DeWall: But I seriously, I really actually do that because I’m like, I know that it’s something I want to continue to get better at because I know smiling can go a long way. And if underneath the mask, if that makes me feel less vulnerable or less like, Oh my gosh, they’re going to think I’m, you know, strange because I’m smiling at them. I love that the mask is kind of this cover that I can still smile at them and flex that muscle. Even though that might be a situation that if I didn’t have a mask on, like I would be like, so that’s one of the ways that I’m actually practicing. Brad Montgomery: You’re doing it partly as an exercise for yourself. Jenn DeWall: Oh yeah. Brad Montgomery: Oh, oh, that’s so cool. Jenn DeWall: Because I can smile at people that I meet face to face, but I still have the same types of like, you know, walls with people. And I just want to get to know other people or just be kind to someone for not knowing. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s my new things. I’m like, I’m just going to smile at them and they won’t know necessarily, or Brad Montgomery: That is such a concrete exercise. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. If you can do it all the time at work, if you’re wearing this at work and you’re sitting in a meeting, you could smile at people and then you’re that benefit for yourself. And hopefully, it’s practice for outside of that. Brad Montgomery: Oh, that’s such a concrete idea. I love that. Oh my gosh. I’d be curious. Like I think maybe for you, Jenn, it’s slightly awkward to be smiling. Like, Hey, I know you can’t even tell him smiling, but I’m practicing, which is probably a hint. Right? If, if you’re feeling a little awkward smiling, then you know, maybe that your exercise is worth doing. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Well, and it’s not, I can feel comfortable, you know, I can do it smile very well. Like, you know, on the podcast or teaching. But yeah, like it’s not like I, all of a sudden, I just see a human being and I’m like, let’s figure out how we can feel comfortable with each other. No, I still have all the same stuff. They might think I’m strange. They might not like me. They made that, you know, do this. Okay. I’m just going to try and smile with my mask on. Brad Montgomery: There’s this guy I’m thinking of. Who needs to try that? A guy I went to school with and now he’s a hotshot corporate leader. If you asked him, he’d probably say I’m a lovable curmudgeon. I’m kind of grumpy, but everyone loves me. They know I love them and kind of difficult, but you know, in a way that they all know and it’s not true, he’s just grumpy. No one knows he’s a lovable curmudgeon. They just think he’s grumpy. And for that guy to smile under his mask, his practice would be brilliant. I mean, what a great exercise for that guy to see like, yeah, you should be doing us a lot and it should be awkward. And then once you take the mask off, you don’t have to smile all the time, but just 100th of the time for you, it would be a major win. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. All you have to do is push past the awkwardness of smiling at someone. You’re like, why do we get weird about that? Brad Montgomery: I can picture someone listening to this thinking, well, I’m serious, I’m a leader of a big company or a big organization or whatever. I can’t just go in and smile. Like I don’t think that’s what either one of us is saying. We’re just saying some events or times or phrases or whatever have earned smiles and you better be the first one to offer it up. Jenn DeWall: Yes! And just try, I don’t, you know, it’s so we age into leadership, but I’m curious, what else? Like just after a conversation, like what are the other things that we age into, you know, the rules about like, we’ve got to be a serious worker to show someone, you know, that we’re also programming that stuff too like that we, you know, what’s the opportunity to reprogram some of these things that we’ve aged into that aren’t serving us that is getting us further from walking around the office, having a conversation with someone and recognizing they want that too. But I know we have got to wrap this up out of curiosity. So you, you work with organizations, like, what is your favorite thing about delivering this talk? Like what do you love about delivering this talk you give? What’s Your Favorite Part of Motivational Speaking? Brad Montgomery: I have a good answer. Yeah. Let’s stick a question. What’s your favorite part? You go girl. My favorite is the compliments, but only a specific type. So I love everyone who loves compliments and it’s very nice when you walk off stage and people say, Oh, I really liked it. And they want to take a selfie or whatever. That’s very nice. But my favorite is when you have that group of people that want to meet you or shake your hand or ask you a question or take a selfie, but then you look up, I call them the lurkers. Their people are at the periphery and they’re kind of waiting for everyone else to leave. And my, and they’re usually men. And I like it when they come in and they’re always those quiet kind of the silent types. And they’re like, I usually hate this kind of crap. It was just of, I hate this motivational mumbo jumbo, but that was really good. It really helped. And sometimes they have, they do rarely, they rarely cry, but sometimes their eyes are a little moist. And who knows what they’re thinking of? Like something, they heard reminded them of their brother or their kid or their wife who’s ill or who knows what. But gosh, I love those because that just makes me, I feel like those are the- that’s my target audience. The people who are really touchy, feely come up and like, I’ve won them over before I started. Because they already liked the concept. The people who are super resistant to it. I love that. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. That’s well, and because you can see from the people that come up at the end, just how much of an impact, maybe they don’t articulate it, but as you said, you can visibly see it and just how they share it. And I think it’s, I love that message that you’re bringing to the world because I think there are people that are maybe a little bit hardened or maybe they just have lost the belief that like we do all want the same things or maybe we’re just, you know, we’ve, we’ve built up these walls and I love that you provide a platform to remind us that we’re all more alike than we are ever different. Brad Montgomery: Well, I think that can be our superpower. If you just remember how overwhelmed you feel right now and how much you just crave, having someone tell you like, no you’re doing fine. You can turn that around and make that your superpower. Cause you can satisfy that need in others and see where that will take you. It’s awesome. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Make it a superpower! Brad, how can people get in touch with you? Like if they wanted to book you for a keynote, where, where do they go to? How to Find Brad Brad Montgomery: Smoke signals are best. Start smoking. It takes a while, or it’s finger paint. Just kidding. My website is my name. My name is Brad Montgomery and BradMontgomery.com gets you to what I do for organizations and I do some coaching and I’ve got a podcast, whatever you’re interested in. I’d love to love to be part of it. Jenn DeWall: The world needs more Brad Montgomery. Brad, thank you so much for coming in and just talking about such a sensitive, emotional, but so essential topic. I just really appreciate you sharing your humor and your stories and your insights with us. Thank you so much Brad Montgomery: Jenn DeWall, you rock. I’m so grateful. Thanks for having me. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. If you want to check in with Brad, you can go over to his site, BradMontgomery.com, connect with him on LinkedIn, book him as a keynote. And of course, if you find or know someone that could really benefit from really thinking about how they can deepen the relationships that they have with their team, please share this podcast episode with them. And of course, if you liked this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.   The post The People Side of Business with Keynote Speaker Brad Montgomery appeared first on Crestcom International.

Full Transcript Below: Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It is Jenn DeWall here. And this week, you are going to listen to a “minisode” all about authentic leadership. Authentic leadership is actually quite a buzzword these days. And really, it’s just because people are craving to have more of a genuine connection with their colleagues. I mean, and it makes sense, right? We spend most of our time with our boss, with our colleagues, or in our work environment. So we want to feel like this is a place where we genuinely connect, that we feel supported and that people care about us. One thing to keep in mind about authentic leadership is that it’s a great way to build trust. As a matter of fact, according to the 2020 Edelman trust barometer, 55% of people trust big business organizations to do what is right. Part of that challenge with trust is that we aren’t always authentic, meaning we may not be as transparent and may not be as clear. The same 2020 Edelman trust barometer found that 66% of employees don’t feel confident that their current leaders can successfully address challenges. These are some reasons you want to forge a deeper connection with the people you work with. What is Authentic Leadership? So what is authentic leadership? This is someone else’s definition, but I think it’s really pertinent to how we’re going to be talking about it on this minisode. “Authentic leadership is about leading from the core of who we are to inspire each of us to our best contribution toward a shared mission.” That is a quote from Henna Inam. We want to think about leading from an understanding of who we are at our core. This is not the person that we feel like we should be, or maybe trying to pretend that we’re someone that we’re not, but we’re trying to lead authentically and pull out authenticity from those that we lead and those that we interact with. But let’s also talk about what it’s not. So, first of all, authentic leadership is not trying to make everyone happy. It’s also not taking shortcuts or rule-breaking. That means that we are keeping our integrity in check.  We can’t build trust or lead authentically if we say one thing and do another. Authentic leadership is also not ego first and the team second. It’s not about you. Authentic leadership understands that we’re all in this together, doing the best that we can. And it’s really important then that we don’t break trust. If we want to lead authentically, then we don’t play politics or gossip. When you gossip or say maybe something rude, bad, a criticism about someone, just someone on your team, or just someone you work with. That’s eroding trust. And it’s also telling people to watch out. This person might say one thing to your face and say something behind your back. So an important piece about authentic leadership is to lead consistently to make sure that you’re walking the walk. Here’s a quote to consider about authentic leadership. “A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd.” And when we think about authentic leadership, it’s not necessarily about pleasing everyone, but it is about focusing on our team and trying to pull the most out, or the best parts, their strengths and talents. Some things that you want to consider— what things could I be doing right now that may be coming off as inauthentic, that could be breaking trust? Maybe you’re not consistent in your leadership style, or maybe you’re, you know, giving consequences to one person and not the other, for the same type of thing. Maybe you’re not necessarily managing your emotions in a productive way for those to want to listen to you. So another definition of authentic leadership to keep in mind is that authentic leadership is built on a person’s character and is not a system that can be adopted or a method to be applied, authentic leaders at many different management styles and personality types. After all, we’re all different. And as the name implies, it’s not an act, nor can it be effectively imitated. The greatest strength that you have is being you. And according to Bill George- his characteristics of authentic leadership consist of five things: purpose and passion, values and behavior, heart and compassion, relationships and connectedness, and lastly— self-discipline and consistency. Bill George is considered one of the leading, or I would say, primary individuals that got us thinking and talking about authentic leadership. Andy Skidmore’s 5-Part Model of Authentic Leadership Another individual that is well-known in authentic leadership spaces is Andy Skidmore.  Andy talks about authentic leadership in five pieces. So there’s the vision. So that’s, are we working towards? Why do we want everyone to get there? How can I show them what we’re marching on towards? Then, there’s the service. What can we do for others? Authentic leadership is practicing servant-based leadership. It’s not saying, well, what can you do for me? It’s how can I help you? There’s also a high conviction of values. That’s point number three— we understand our values. We know exactly who we are. We also know that those that we interact with also have their values. And what we want to do is lean into our values and understand the values of those around us. We also want to create— this is number four— genuine relationships. And the final piece of authentic leadership—the more you know about yourself, the more self-awareness that you have, the better able you are to identify where you’re coming off as inauthentic. Or just figuring out ways that you could be more relational. Maybe you have the mentality that says, well, this is work. I’m not supposed to be friends with everyone. Well, sure. We obviously understand boundaries. There are certain things that you can’t share with your team. But does it mean that you can’t be friends, be cordial, get to know them, know their wife’s name or their children’s name, or what they like to do? No! So as we’re going through this, I’m going to walk through Andy Skidmore’s recommendation of the five pieces [of authentic leadership]. And I’m just going to give you some tips on how you can work on the five things. But I want you to think about the best area for you to focus on to be more authentic with your team. Start with Self-Awareness The first area that we’re looking at is self-awareness. Self-awareness is understanding one’s own emotions, needs, and drives to relate with others successfully. So we can think about this as emotional intelligence, and there’s a benefit to understanding self-awareness. The more self-awareness we have, the better we’re going to be at problem-solving because we can understand our strengths and weaknesses. We know where we could maybe aid others in solving a problem and who we could go to to help us get there. So if you want to boost your self-awareness to lead more authentically with your team, one way is to, you know, use, or identify your strengths and weaknesses. And don’t try to make your weaknesses your strengths. Look at this as an opportunity to say; you know what? This may not be my strong suit, but I bet Michelle on my team, she could be the right person to solve this. And it is also understanding that you, as a leader, do not have to do it all. Another important piece of self-awareness is that you’ve got to admit your mistakes. When you, as a leader, can share that, you’re perfect. You’re perfectly imperfect. And you’re a human being that makes mistakes. Then they have less stress because they know that it’s okay. We know that mistakes will happen at work. But we don’t want people to be so afraid of messing up that they become overworked, overly anxious, you know, and have too much stress that it’s creating more of what we don’t want to see. So another way is to do emotional check-ins. One of my favorite things is to do the emotional breathalyzer, which is a check-in with yourself. Before you send an email, if you notice that you might be really frustrated or angry, this is an opportunity to check-in and say, do I really want to send this? Do an emotional check-in before you go into a meeting. Because, when you’re in that meeting, you’re face-to-face with your peers or with the people that leave you. And if you go in frustrated or annoyed, that absolutely will rub off on those you interact with. And again, it’s then going to be the behavior that others will more likely repeat on your team. Now, other ways that you can boost your own self-awareness is through journaling. You know, jot down your thoughts, talk about your triggers, talk about your day. It doesn’t matter how, but start to form a genuine connection with yourself. And the last piece is to practice leading without judgment. Self-Awareness understands we’ll need to practice that, that we are perfectly imperfect, as is everyone else around us. It’s not our duty to judge them. We can be curious to understand how we can have a better connection with them. Building Genuine Relationships Now, the second piece of Andy Skidmore’s model is all about our relationships. And one to consider about relationships is that leaders are not just responsible for the revenue or the budget projections. Your success as a leader will be contingent on connecting with others. Your customers, employees, and suppliers are at the heart of every business, and creating positive relationships with them is key. And one of the great ways to create a positive relationship is by being real. You want to be approachable. You want to, you know, show that they can trust you. You also want to use that to build team morale. So tips on how to improve your relationships, get to know people, ask them questions. It doesn’t have to be complicated—, you know if you say, “how was your weekend?” And they say, “fine,” you can say,” Oh, what did you do?” Ask open-ended questions to get to know more about them. Also, drop the image. People want to work for people that they see as human. They don’t want to work for that robot that might say exactly what they think they’re going to say because that’s what people want to hear. They want to see you as an individual. And if you want to build better relationships, start by assuming positive intent. Now I know it can get really, really easy— especially if we’re bogged down with work— to maybe get irritated or frustrated and then have a knee jerk reaction. When in actuality, if we just assume that those around us are doing the best they can and assume positive intent, we may not be as likely to fly off the handle. And we’re going to be more likely to have a better collaboration with them. So, of course, with relationships too, then it requires us to practice vulnerability. Again, sharing our mistakes, sharing when we may be afraid or when  we might feel strong, and practicing being curious. And, of course, being a great listener. Now, this last piece for relationships is to embrace feedback. Now I would also encourage your employees to give you feedback, and they know that that can feel tough because we don’t necessarily want to hear it from them. But if we assume positive intent that they truly are giving us feedback to help us. Or to create a deeper connection and create a better team environment, let’s not take it personal and say, is there something in this feedback that could improve the group overall? Perfect. Conviction of Values The third piece of Andy Skidmore is all about our values. Values are a person’s principles or standards of behavior. It’s one’s judgment of what’s important in life. And if you want to get in touch with your values, a great thing you can do is go online. There are plenty of values assessments, but understand which ones are core to you. Now, for me, some of my core values are authenticity itself. I love to be able to express myself exactly as who I am. And I really dislike environments where I have to pretend that I’m someone that I’m not. That’s where I didn’t necessarily connect with some organizations that I’ve worked with because I felt like I had to put up a facade. I had to pretend that I was someone that I wasn’t. And that actually created more stress and anxiety for me. The important thing here is to check in with yourself and get familiar with your own values because when you understand your values, you can use them as your compass, as your foundational point to make decisions. So, for example, if I know that authenticity is really important to me, then maybe I won’t put myself into positions where I have to show up or pretend that I’m someone I’m not. And the other piece with this is that the more we can make decisions that align with our own values, the happier we’ll be, the more confident we’ll be. And also, it makes it easier to make decisions. Whereas when we make decisions that might go against our values, we might find that we may be more upset or have more stress, or that we feel like we’re not doing the right thing. And keep in mind too, with values—every single person has a unique set of values and that our values change. So check in with your team, have them do a values assessment. You can then understand that you might uncover some differences that could be causing conflict. One person may value having something done completely before taking the next action, and another person saying, well, you know, good enough is better than done. That could be an opportunity to have a conversation. The conflict is not actually about the two individuals so much as their values. So, find that list of values, just go through a typical values list, circle your top 10, narrow it to five and rank yourself on a scale of 1 to 10. One meaning— I don’t align with this value or ten meaning—yeah, I’m in alignment with this value right now. And if you find that you’re out of alignment, then identify some actions you can take to align with where you need to be. For example, say one of my values was my career, and I rated myself a two because I have felt like I haven’t been doing anything to drive it. Say I’ve just been kind of doing the minimum. This is an opportunity to say; maybe I need to take a class and have a conversation with my boss. Serving Others Now,  the fourth thing about authentic leadership from Andy Skidmore is all about service, and servant leadership is a leadership philosophy in which the main goal of the leader is to serve. So as a servant leader, you have a servant first mindset. You focus on the needs of others before considering your own needs. This is where we need to reduce our own egos. For those that may be familiar with our  Crestcom faculty members, Steve Farber wrote an excellent book. I would recommend everyone checking it out called Greater Than Yourself. And this is a mindset that our goal as leaders if we’re truly going to be a servant leader, our goal is to make everyone better than what we could even be. It’s looking inside thinking about our skills, strengths, and how we can share them with someone else? So how can we practice service? Well, first and foremost, asking questions. How can I help? It is also leading with empathy. It’s showing people that, “Hey, I see you.”  And it’s practicing seeing things from their perspective. You can also incorporate service by doing your own skills analysis, asking yourself what skills you could share with people on your team, scheduling development time, or using those skills to match up via mentoring programs. You could pair up someone with a dominant skill in communication with someone whose dominant skill is analytics and maybe see how they can work together to share that knowledge. And, of course, practice that Greater Than Yourself mindset from Steve Farber. A Vision for the Future Now the last piece for authentic leadership is that we have to have a vision. We can know who we are. We can value our relationships. We can know our values. We can know so much! What we need to also know is where we’re leading our team. And vision is essentially the ability to see beyond the mess that may be in front of you to abstract away from it, clean it up, and see a hopefully better future that does not yet exist. And it’s important for us. If we want people to follow us, if we want them to work harder for us, they need to know what we’re working for. And they also want to know how they’re connected to that vision. Vision is defined as where the organization wants to go in the long-term. A vision is like creating the future in advance. You can use that vision to potentially develop different skills on your team or assign certain projects. And it describes where you want to be as a team and as an organization. The great thing about vision is that if you are trying to lead your team more authentically, start by showing how they matter to your team, share the vision, and describe how they fit into accomplishing and achieving that vision. And also, understand that you, as well as everyone else, have different motivations. Try to uncover their motivations, purpose, what they’re excited about, what their career paths are, and then see how you can align that to the vision. If you know that someone wants to develop in a particular area and aligns with your vision, maybe you can delegate a project or ask them to attend a meeting to get more familiarity or exposure to that. And then that will connect them to the vision even more. And if you want people to truly connect with it, you’ve got to walk the walk. You’ve got to show that you value the vision you’re going to do, whatever it takes to get there. And it’s got to be a priority. It’s not painting one vision, then going to another vision, then going to another vision. We’ve got to be consistent. This will help us in our strategic thinking. It will help us in our problem-solving. And, of course, in our decision-making and the last piece of the vision, you’ve got to have regular check-ins. A vision is great, but the mistake that some organizations can make is that they repeat it once and expect everyone to then assign themselves to that vision, to feel a part of it, and then work towards it. A vision is something that we want to talk about frequently. We want to energize people and inspire them, and really grow enthusiasm around the vision. People can use that as motivation to do their job or work harder, overcome challenges or think differently, and make better decisions that can get you to that vision. Thank you so much for tuning into this week’s minisode all about how you can become a more authentic leader. If you enjoyed this week’s minisode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast and streaming service, and feel free to share with your friends. We would love to be able to help develop more leaders. So please share it with them. So then maybe they can gain some insights to make a greater impact. Thank you so much for tuning in- until next time.   The post Minisode: Authentic Leadership with Jenn DeWall appeared first on Crestcom International.

You’re Not Lost – Finding Your Direction Your Own Way with Author, Host and Executive Producer Maxie McCoy Full Transcript Below:  Intro: Thank you so much for tuning into this week’s episode of Crestcom’s The Leadership Habit podcast. In this episode, I sat down and talked with Maxie McCoy. For those that are unfamiliar with Maxie, she is a facilitator of women’s stories, and she’s the author of You’re Not Lost- An Inspired Action Plan to Finding your Own Way, which Refinery29 has called one of the top three books for women. Maxie is committed to the global rise of women. And she’s the host and executive producer of Woman On, an experiential talk show concept. Her work has been featured on Good Morning America, Cosmopolitan, The Skim, Forbes, Fortune, Inc., Bustle, you get the point. She is often interviewed about her expertise in women’s leadership. And then today, we are going to be talking about her book. You’re Not Lost- An Inspired Action Plan for Finding Your Own Way. Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am thrilled. No, maybe ecstatic to be sitting down and talking to Maxie McCoy. You might be thinking, Hmm, who is Maxie McCoy? Let me tell you that she is an expert in the women’s leadership space. She has been featured on Good Morning America, on The Skim, on Forbes, any major publication. Chances are she’s been there. And she’s also an author of the book, You Are Not Lost, but in addition, she’s a host and producer of her own show, Woman On, as part of the Woman On Collective. And she also does speaking. So we’re going to tap into Maxie’s expertise, and we’re going to talk a little bit more about her book, which I think is a message that everyone needs to hear regardless of your age, that you are not lost, but Maxie, I want you to introduce yourself. I can always give the bubbly intro, but Maxie, please share with our audience who you are and how you actually came to be where you are today. Meet Maxie McCoy, author of You’re Not Lost Maxie McCoy: Well, wherever all of you are sitting and listening, I’m sitting on a little stool with my Figgy plants. I’m in San Francisco. But I was raised in Texas, which was like, you know, the original story, but I consider myself a facilitator of women’s stories. It’s something that I have been doing since I could breathe. It’s why I write. It’s why I love being in person. It’s why I love to interview. Yeah, it’s just really being able to pull together our universal experiences and truths. And the way that has shown up lately, as I have this book, You’re Not Lost, which we’re going to talk about more obviously what you just said, hosting and producing Woman On, which is really all about moving individuals forward, giving them the information they need to inform the next step in their own life. And it’s really, really, I’m really grateful to be doing the work, but I always say too, that, like I’m a writer at heart because I just I think it’s my first love. Jenn DeWall: So writing is your first love? I would never have guessed it because you are so, I mean, from being someone that’s participated in Woman On just watching your interviews and having these powerful conversations Maxie McCoy: It’s writing, I know, isn’t that weird? I actually like on, on hard days, which I think everybody listening can, can definitely relate to when you’re like, what am I doing? Does anything that I do matter? Like, where is this all going? Like that vibe. Which happens. It seems like it happened a little bit more in 2020, which I think we can all we all know why. But those feelings I’m like, do I, can I just move to the mountains and write fiction books or books in general for the rest of my life? And then my best girlfriends will be like, you know, that, that wouldn’t actually make you happy. You love being with people and connecting people, and asking people questions. And it’s true. But yeah, it, it, it is like, it kind of like is under all of the very external stuff. There’s like a secret hermit-y writer inside. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh, I love, I need to find my own secret hermit-y writer. Maxie McCoy: You do, but you just give so much to us, and we are all so much better for it. What Inspired Your Book, You’re Not Lost? Jenn DeWall: What inspired you to write a book? You know, it’s called You’re Not Lost. I know it’s just feeling like, am I lost, but what inspired you to write that piece? Like where did you come to be to realize that people really needed to hear that message? Maxie McCoy: Yeah. It’s, you know, for me, I always, again, going back to the writing, being the first stuff I always knew I wanted to write my own book. I just wasn’t sure what it would eventually be. So I knew that that kind of that skillset and that desire was there, but the way the book came to life and not like that little corner of the world where people do feel lost was when- it’s where you and I first came together. You know, I’m working in the women’s leadership space as the person running offline communities for a company that now no longer exists, but I was tasked with community building, with facilitating the leaders in each city who would build out the curriculum. And it was all targeted at young professional women who were in the first, like ten years of their career. It was like a really specific audience. And when I was there, I spent the majority of my time in these 30 different cities around the world. It didn’t matter whether we were talking about negotiation, whether we were talking about office politics, whether we were talking about anything leadership-related, job search, what always came up in those conversations was really high achieving and high performing, accomplished women still saying, but I feel really lost. Or I don’t really believe in my ability to do that. And you know, for me it was, I kept hearing it. I kept hearing it. It wasn’t like, Ooh, this is your book. Like I never had that moment. But I did notice that I was hearing that a lot. And when I asked myself, you know, well, what is the source of this? Or, more importantly, what are we telling people who feel lost? It was just a lot of the same stuff. Like find your passion and figure out your purpose. And I know that I had felt really lost at one point in my journey. And I was like that advice like I’ve said it before, so I’m not knocking anyone who has said that or who believes that. I think it’s really well-intentioned. It’s just not your starting point when you’re in the depths of feeling stuck and lost. And so when it came time, like, you know, as I had been building my career, I have people kept asking, like, are you writing a book? When are you going to write a book? I would love to have a book from you, like your voice, your writing, because I’ve been blogging on the internet for years and had built up a following. And so when I kind of married those two, like people asking me to write a book, me noticing that there was this unmet need, and that’s really where you get a book deal. Right. If we’re getting into the trappings of, of how to get published, it’s, what’s the thing that hasn’t been written or what’s what hasn’t been addressed in like your strategy and way with like an actual need and a platform that you’ve built. So yeah, it’s just like kind of came together sort of tactically, but it was really based on listening to the women that I was supporting, Jenn DeWall: Because like You’re Not Lost. I like that. You really touched on the fact that we often, when we feel lost, one of the first pieces of advice that someone will say to us, and again, as well, intentioned as well, just find your passion. That is a big question. Maxie McCoy: It’s a really big question. And, and, and origin, it’s like, well, just figure out what you want. Like just, just, you know, like write some goals and, and whatever. And it’s just like these big things, like, what are your passions? Which like our passions change, like my passion right now versus like my passion this time, last year, I was like sorta the same, sorta different. And also, it’s just like we deliver these pieces of advice that are sort of too big and end all be all when what we really need is to come back to like really small choices and really small actions That can keep us moving. Jenn DeWall: What’s an example of a small choice for an action that you kind of do to keep yourself moving when you might be teetering on feeling lost or, you know, just the anxiety. Maxie McCoy: I mean, I teeter on all of it, right? On certain days it’s like, what is going on? One example that I’ll give you is actually after my book came out, I was just feeling like, so a lot of when the like, lost feelings come up, that I have found in a lot of the interviewing and the anecdotal research for this book is when we accomplish really big goals. When we have big promotions, big life, things that we thought were going to fill the bucket, and then we get there, and we’re like, okay. Like, we’re not all of a sudden like solved because we had this one big achievement that we had been working towards all year or our whole lives. Right? There’s a lot of us that have done those things. And so, you know, for me having a book come out and, and really, truly it doing what it did and having the experiences with my audience who had read it. And I just, I remember at one point, like I was signing the books and looking up, and there was this long line of women, and I just was stopped in my tracks because I was like, I literally can’t believe this is happening to me because I’ve stood in so many of those lines to meet the woman who’s writing I have loved and has, has affected me. And, and it was moments like that, that, well, okay, I’ve done this now. Right? Like, what do I want from this? Like, what do I do next? And at the time, I wasn’t actively building anything. I had just been super focused on getting the book out, super focused on that book tour. And, and obviously like making the money I needed to make, but like, it was all focused around the book, and I remember feeling really lost. And one of my best girlfriends literally opened up my own book and read it to me. And it really came down to what you’re asking. Like I just asked myself, I know the things that light me up. Like I do know what energizes me. So if I were to move the big picture aside, if I were to move the big goal aside, the big achievement, the big like 10 point plan, passion purpose, like, where’s it all going question. If I just move all of that and really look at it right now, what lights me up? Bringing women together. Am I doing that in a way that I’m in control of? At the time, I was not. So I was like, okay, I’m going to research venues in my neighborhood that I could get for free or at low cost. And then put a call out to women in San Francisco around a theme and bring them together. Because I think I want to do this Woman On thing, but I need to start somewhere. So I just started testing it, literally. It was that small, right. It’s asking yourself, asking yourself the question around alignment, energy, what might make you happy? What might make you excited? And then instead of having to have a whole plan against it, just doing one thing, recording one episode, going to one workshop, you know, picking up one book about fiction writing, like the small things. And obviously, hindsight is literally always hindsight. So I get that. It always makes sense in hindsight. But when you look back, when you choose to do things without being obsessed with where it all turns out, you’re like, right. The difference between, you know, the finding partnership and not was going on that one date that you were sort of like, I have no idea how this is going to turn out. Or, you know, you go on the one interview that was like a total maybe for you. But then you met the mentor that opened up all of the doors to your wildest dreams. And it’s like, we have to keep doing that when we feel lost and stuck, we have to keep showing up, even though we don’t know where it’s all headed and like, totally be okay with that. Start with Small Actions Jenn DeWall: I love that answer. And also addressing just, you know, acknowledging that it is really difficult for people to say, well, especially if they’re overachievers, right, as many leaders probably listening to this are, they are likely very ambitious. And so they might want to feel like, well, if I’m going to commit to something, or if I’m going to pivot, I’ve got to have this gigantic plan, right. It never needs to be that way. You’re the one that is choosing that. Maxie McCoy: Totally. We glorify these big leaps, and we glorify. You even said it like the major pivot. Right? Well, what if we just didn’t do any of those? And what if instead, and we know this in our work, right. Instead of handing our boss the thing that we worked a year on, and we’re so precious about, that we then get feedback and feel like everything is crumbled. What if we showed them the first draft for some early feedback that we can then build on. And, you know, we should be doing those things in our own lives, like being willing to go to, if I use the example of writing a fiction book, even if what you do in your day to day is like, you’re a school teacher. Well, if you have little dreams, maybe about writing fiction, what if, instead of quitting your job and leaping to become a fiction writer, you took four weeks of an hour-long workshop online, maybe wrote a few pages to see if you even like it. And, and I think we make up a lot of stuff in our heads of things that look better or might seem better or feel better, but we never gave ourselves the opportunity for iteration and feedback. And that’s actually what little choices and little actions without having a whole big plan allow us to do. They allow us to get feedback before upending our lives. Jenn DeWall: I think what I hear you also saying is, you know, leaders to be truly effective to be truly successful women, men, it doesn’t matter. We’ve got to stop living in the spectrum, the finite spectrum. This is either good or bad. Instead, figure out, no, this is just part of it. Maxie McCoy: Yeah. And we don’t have to be good or bad. Like when we’re trying new things in our workplace and our leadership journey, we’re so scared of being bad that we often don’t let ourselves even try. Right. Whether that’s dabbling in running a meeting, whether it’s taking, you know, like taking our hand at running the numbers, when what we do in our day-to-day work is very relational. But the reality is, is like, no one is just magically really great at things the majority of the time. And so we have to, I say, you know, like allow yourself to suck a little bit. I remember I went to. I signed up for a slam poetry workshop because I do like to write poetry. I just don’t share it with anyone. And I was like, Oh, but poetry with performing would be really interesting because I had a performance background just in terms of like on our broadcast team and speech and debate and theater when I was really young. And I was so bad at it, but it was so fun. It was so fun. And you’re like writing poetry and performing it and like, what? And I was terrible and I probably won’t, I don’t think I’ll ever do it again, but like, it was very cool. And I think allowing ourselves to just like, not be good at things is something that’s really important in our leadership because you don’t grow if the thing keeping you from learning is your level of perfection. Jenn DeWall: Well, I think it makes it harder to then lead effectively when you don’t try different things, or you don’t, you don’t practice vulnerability, then you’re modeling that behavior. And is that stifling innovation at a greater level? Is it, you know, not allowing people development opportunity. Maxie McCoy: It trickles down it. It really trickles down. And also, in leadership, I know that the advice that I just gave right. Of being able to move the big picture and, you know, I, I do workshops around the content of my book inside at companies all the time. And I acknowledged that that advice is counter to how we typically run big companies. It’s like the antithesis of Silicon Valley where I’m at. Like, everything is a big picture, unicorn, like the bigger, the better you have to get people to buy into your big beliefs. And there is a place for that in business cultures, in in, you know, workplaces. And we don’t have to apply all of that to our individual life. We don’t have to run our day-to-day life like that. It’s actually okay if you don’t know where it’s all going and where it ends up, because like, there’s so much uncertainty holding on to it is just like, it’s a really big source of anxiety, and it keeps you from doing the thing that you need to do, which is moving and showing up and trying, and really getting into action in small ways in your own life. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Action quiets anxieties and gives yourself permission to not be perfect or to suck or to not even to not know all the answers. I think that’s the pressure that leaders put on themselves once they get the title or you get that big promotion, then all of a sudden, it’s as if it’s written in the job description, though it’s not. Like there’s a bullet point added that says you must be the best at every single thing. And know every part of this organization and answer every question like we had in our own bullet point on that. And it makes it so much more challenging to be an effective leader because we’re just then telling ourselves we’re missing the mark. Remember No One is Perfect Maxie McCoy: Totally. A hundred percent. And the reality is, is like, no one is perfect at anything. And if you are holding yourself to this standard, but Jenn that you just gave, I would tell someone to just look at the leaders that they’ve really seen up close and respect and remind yourself of their failures, their imperfections. It’s not about being critical at them, but just remind yourself, like you’ve seen leaders that you respect and admire up close and in person, and they were not perfect. And that actually is probably why you love them. You know, like we don’t, we don’t really relate to people that are perfect in every way. That’s not what creates connection. Jenn DeWall: Right. And we know if we want to connect with our teams, we’ve got to do that. I want to get more into your book because I want to be able to talk about some of the concepts, but let’s do kind of maybe a little highlight reel. When you think about your book again, You’re Not Lost, what are some of the messages that you feel like even our listeners could benefit from hearing that are part of your book? Maxie McCoy: Yeah. I mean,  so what you have to know, if you’re listening to this and you haven’t read, You’re Not Lost, it’s really targeted at asking you questions that get you into action and, and leading your hand in that, even though I’m the first director, I have no idea about your life. I don’t know where it’s supposed to end up, and I don’t know how to fix it. But I do know how to encourage you to do small things, to try things out, to figure that out. And one of the things and this is probably a little bit, well, all of this is subjective. But it was because it was an exercise in my own life. That really started to create momentum for me is like, when you doubt yourself when you are unsure about where you want to go next, what you want to do with this year, what you know, just kind of where you want to be putting your energy. I think utilizing the people around you that really believe in you is a very powerful exercise. You know, I, I believe that we have to hand over our problems in order to receive the solutions. Maxie McCoy: So if you just keep it to yourself, like, yeah, you’re super, you know, enterprising, and you’re going to figure it out. Eventually, the internet is a beautiful place. Like there’s a lot of answers there, but also the people that know us the best can be helpful. And so, one of the strategies that I layout is to actually work with a friend. That’s my favorite way to do it. You don’t have to. You can totally do it on your own, but to pick, like, let’s say 5, 10, 15 of people that you would consider in your corner, right. They can be colleagues, and they can be mentors, they can be past colleagues. They could be parents, siblings, like literally anyone that’s a relationship that you were like, they actually like really are in my corner. They’re not like fake supportive; they’re truly supportive. Maxie McCoy: And then to ask them a series of questions. And the reason that I suggest in the book to do it with a friend is so that it can be done anonymously. Like they fill out a survey, that friend then delivers the answers to you in the questions that you’re asking them are things like, where do you see me in five years? Like, what are the things that you think are my, my highest contributions and superpowers, like of that vein. And then if you’re bold, like, what do you think is holding me back? And then, you know, other like sleepy thoughts that they might have, there’s a couple of other questions and there, and I’m telling you, and Jenn, I will tell you this. Maxie McCoy: Like, I still look at those answers. So I did that survey in 2014 with my friend Barban and the answers that are in that spreadsheet, which I still have. And I still sometimes refer back to are literally my life today. And it’s very different than my life in 2014. Like I have actually done all the things that they thought that I could do. But at the time when I was reading it, I was like, these people are just crazy. Like, I don’t know why they believe in me to that level, but I share this strategy as, as something that like, often, whether you do it like that, or you do it in your own way, it really is just about giving yourself an opportunity to understand how people really see you in a positive way in a positive light. Because oftentimes, when we don’t believe in our ability to go after that promotion to become the CMO, to do, you know, just start the new group in a company to negotiate for more. The people around us do. And there’ll be able to tell us why. And what matters is that we give space to actually understand that, you know, whether you call that a review that you do in your personal life or, or whatever. So that’s one of my favorites. Jenn DeWall: I love that one because it’s safe, right? There’s a safe space in being vulnerable because Maxie and I both know, we just got done talking about imposter syndrome, and we both know how difficult it is to put yourself out there, to put, to also get feedback on maybe the things that are holding you back or the things that you don’t want to see. I know, you know, one of the things that’s hard about leadership is getting comfortable with feedback and recognizing that you know, there are just strategies and how to manage feedback. We don’t have to absorb in place all of that on ourselves. We can choose that, but going to a friend or a mentor or a colleague, you know, creating that love that, I guess I would say that safe, supportive environment is just such a great place to begin because you’re not going to someone that you maybe don’t trust, and you’re not going to someone that you think wouldn’t be supportive. Those are not the people you want to invite to then give you assessments of how you’re showing up in your life. Act ‘As If’ Maxie McCoy: Totally. And I think, you know, even as you’re talking about those people and the imposter syndrome that we naturally feel, right, like you just mentioned that we just talked about all this. I mean, that’s another thing in all of this is when we survey those people, even when we doubt ourselves, right. This is what imposter syndrome really is that we think that we’re a fraud that we think that we don’t deserve this. We Don’t deserve the promotion, don’t deserve the pay. Like, somebody’s gonna find out we don’t actually know what we’re doing. Our people can be a really good source of our cheerleaders, the people in our corner, not the haters. They can be a really good source of support to remind us that, like, that actually is false spots. It is false thinking. It’s not what is true about us. And then, you know, if you are feeling that way and, and Jenn, because you brought it up, it is like another strategy that’s really helpful when you’re feeling lost, and you’re feeling stuck. And you’re trying things that you’ve never done before. And you’re maybe a little bit more willing to stink at all of it, is just acting as if, acting as if you do deserve that role acting as if you do know what you’re doing. Maxie McCoy: Even if you don’t feel like you do, acting as if you are the most confident person in the room when you go in to do that presentation around your ideas that you’re actually really nervous about. All of the research shows that when we step into that and we take on the identity of, of the confidence that we’re trying to exude, not only does it physically affect how we show up, like inside our bones in our body, it actually rallies the people around us to believe what we’re believing. And so, you know, the example that I like to give and the acting as if, is like, when you’re at dinner, and the owner of the restaurant comes up to you and starts asking how your food was, how you are, they don’t introduce themselves. They don’t tell you that they’re the owner of the restaurant. They don’t tell you half the time, even their name. They just start talking to you out of nowhere, which is almost stranger. Right. But you don’t second guess it. You’re like, cool. I’ll let this person interrupt me and stop my conversation with my, my, you know, family. I’ll let them ask me all of these questions about my food because they’re confident about it. So clearly, they’re the owner of this restaurant. And so it’s just like, remember that, right? Like how powerful it can be when you just act like you’re in charge, act like you own the place. Everyone else can tell because it affects how you act and how you show up. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. You can absolutely sense it. Right. You can sense when someone’s not confident, and it’s okay if you’re not confident, but I love your advice to act as if. Like, if you want to truly influence someone, you’ve got to say I’m worth listening to, but you’ve got to believe it first. Maxie McCoy: You have to believe it also. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think there’s always a place like I’m, I’m somebody who and Jenn, I know that you’re like this too. Like I’m vulnerable. I’m real about when I’m questioning something, or maybe like, I’m not feeling great about it, but you also do have to know the time and place that shows up. Because when you’re trying to get everyone to enjoy something and believe in you and be on board, you don’t want to start all of that with like a million reasons why they shouldn’t because of how you’re feeling about yourself. And, and I find that that vulnerability is really powerful in, in, you know, kind of small moments and ways or in past experiences, versus telling someone like at this moment I don’t know why I’m even running this meeting. Well, I go, it’s probably not the time and place. Jenn DeWall: That is such a good point, though, is talking about You’re Not Lost and how that actually comes up, or you might come across as lost is when you just tell your audience, they don’t need to listen to you because, Hey, yeah. I don’t even know why I’m leading this or something, or I’ll deflect it, or I’ll just defer to, Oh, they actually probably have a better answer than me, even though I might actually have a good answer, but I still will go to someone else. Maxie McCoy: One hundred percent. I mean, it’s, you know, the difference is like getting in front of a room of people and saying, I feel really lost right now, but let me give you the tools to not feel lost, which is like not going to work versus saying like, I have felt lost in the past few months, but these were my own tools that I used again to really bring me out of it. Right. And so it all becomes about the way with which you acknowledge the vulnerabilities. You acknowledge the imperfections while also acknowledging your expertise in leadership. Jenn DeWall: You just brought up something that Crestcom teaches and its curriculum and what, and it’s seriously one of my favorite pieces, Maxie McCoy: Please teach me! Jenn DeWall: And it’s just, you know, and it’s adding the qualifier word that we will naturally start to judge ourselves. Of course, as a leader, we put the pressure to be everything to everyone. We’re not going to know everything. And just by saying, and you know, I don’t know that yet. And just adding them yet, can you even give yourself? And that’s from our curriculum. Maxie McCoy: I love that. Jenn DeWall: Because it gives you permission to say, I don’t have to be an expert today, but I will commit to, you know, to finding out. Maxie McCoy: I mean, it’s, it’s really true and spot on. And like, yeah, if we’re always holding ourselves to the bar of knowing everything, then we’re just not breather like full of crap, or we’re not growing, or, you know, it just it’s, it’s not real. Like we shouldn’t have that expectation for ourselves. It’s OK to Not Have it All Figured Out Jenn DeWall: Well, and it’s so interesting even thinking about the title of your book, You’re Not Lost. Where, you know, by nature of life, like we are never going to be perfect. We’re never going to be able to figure out what the future holds. All. We can control our choices today and how we learn from our lessons of yesterday. But yet we somehow put the pressure on ourselves to be like, well, you need to figure out what you’re doing. Maxie McCoy: I don’t know what I’m doing with my life. I don’t have it all figured out. Like nobody, like, I’m not where I thought I was going to be in all the best ways. Do you know what I mean? It’s just, why, why do we want to know exactly where it’s all going and how it’s ending up? And it’s, you know, I think it’s just kind of coming back to being okay with unknowns, which I know as humans is totally against how we operate. But there is like peace in that. And that is like, to your point about the book title, you can feel lost without being lost, right? Like we are not our feelings. And, and I think that the thing that I really try and get at in the book is, is the difference between direction and destination, right. And how freeing direction can be and how much destination can plague us. Maxie McCoy: Right. It’s the difference between saying that, like, I’m going to go align with my values. Align with opportunities that light me up. Align with my talents and skillsets, like these small things versus I’m going to go exactly to this one place, no matter what it takes. And as an example of how that shows up, like, I know that I love to write, I love to speak, but at the core of all of that is I really love facilitating women’s stories specifically. And so, a couple of years ago, I had an opportunity that presented itself around writing, ghost-writing someone else’s book. And for me, that would have been nowhere on the like, goals, plans, here’s everything I’m doing in the next five, ten years, which I don’t do to myself anymore, but like had I, I would not be there. Maxie McCoy: Right. But then when I really asked myself like, wow, this provided the situation feels good. Once I get into it, this really checks the box of these small things that I love to do with my days. I love to write. I love books. I love asking women questions. And like how cool that, that showed up. And I was able to say yes to it because I wasn’t so obsessed with the destination that I thought I wanted to go. And it is truly one of my favorite experiences. Do you know? It just, it really it set me up well for this year, this past year to have like a not so great year, you know, like there’s just, there’s different things that it was such a gift. And I never, if I had been really obsessed with knowing and only doing the things I said I’m going to do, and all of these goals and all of these plans and the big vision. It just wouldn’t have been on there. But it did totally line up with the small things that energize me, which is really what direction is about. It, it is about believing in yourself enough to take those small steps. Even if you don’t know where it’s all going, It’s About Going in the Right Direction, Not Reaching a Destination Jenn DeWall: I love that you brought up direction. I was just writing that. So I can remember to say it. I love that you brought up the differentiation between direction and destination because I know as myself and I’m sure many people listening because let’s be honest with some of the people that listen to podcasts are likely type A, very ambitious, they want to be successful. But if I go back to even where I was, you know, earlier on in my career, my big destination was to be a buyer. I wanted to be traveling. I wanted to be doing all of that. And you know, it didn’t work out that way. And it was devastating because I only focused on that in the piece that I had to learn and peel back is, well, why did you really want that? And I found that, yeah, like I wanted it because everyone else had it, or that’s what you were supposed to want in our company because you want this upward mobility. Whereas if I had paid attention to the, you know, the direction of it, I would have found, but Jenn, you’re the happiest when you’re working, when you’re the happiest when you’re doing this, you know, when you’re not happy is when you’re crunching numbers. You are not going to be the one. But I wonder if there are leaders because then how that shows up. Right. If I think about how I truly showed up as a team member, I wasn’t, you know, as probably like excited, I could be a little bit jaded, and I’m talking about after the destination failed, right? So when the destination failed, and I didn’t lean into my directions, then I kind of, you know, disengaged from the organization. I probably wasn’t the best team player. And if you think about anyone listening, like if you realize that maybe you found yourself in that same spot where you have a destination and either you’re, you’re not going to get it, or you find out that you really don’t want it, but then watching how you show up, because that will impact everything you are doing. Maxie McCoy: Jenn, you’re like calling me out right now because, you know, a couple of years ago, I took an opportunity to run experiences at scale in locations. Right. So it was a lot of things that I wouldn’t probably have been able to do on my own because it would have taken venture funding. And I remember like five months into. I wanted to do it because, like I bring women together, I facilitate their stories. I was getting to build out all of the like strategies and curriculum. And I had a team of 15. And like there was this, you know, there were all of these things in the leadership journey that I thought was what I wanted at the time or that I thought made sense. But I remember a few months into it being like, I literally like can’t stand my days. Like I, I can’t stand my day. It’s like I don’t spend my days in rooms full of women. I spend my days on zoom, in spreadsheets, in Google documents, in reporting in one-on-ones. I just don’t like my days. And I have, you know, I had built my life to a point where like, it was all about liking my days. Even if that meant I met, you know, made less money or had, you know, less whatever. And not that I ever expect myself to like a hundred percent of my days, but the point was, I didn’t like my emotions. Right. Maxie McCoy: And if you’re not liking your emotions more than you are, right. If it’s like an 80, 20, and the majority of it is like, you just don’t like your emotions. It means that your day-to-day actions aren’t aligned with the things that light you up. They, you might’ve thought. And by the way, we don’t. I say I share that story because I got it wrong, and I’m actually, it was an awesome lesson in getting it wrong. And, and by the way, I got this wrong, even after I wrote my book, like I really, I was, I was gunning for something. I wanted to try something out. I, it was, it was something that I, I thought that I wanted to figure out in my leadership journey, and it turns out I was like, Oh yeah, no. Okay, cool, Maxie McCoy: But it’s, it’s about recalibration. Right. And figuring out like, okay, like if that, you know, if that is what it takes to be, to do that then like, is, is that the situation? There’s a lot of factors there that made it a no, but it does matter that you do enjoy at least half, hopefully, a majority of your emotions of your actions. Because those are the things that make up our days and like not to get into like positive psychology, but like our days are our reality. They’re what we have. So, you know, and big goals even take your biggest goal. It is not going to fulfill you. Like we have all been there. We have all attained the thing. At some point, we thought we wanted, and it doesn’t fill you up. Like not unless it’s like really good partnership family stuff. Because that’s about moments of love. Right. And, and so I just, you know, I caution myself and all of us to forego disliking the majority of our moments in order for, you know, something a few years, a few months, a few decades out that may or may not happen because we may or may not live to see it. Jenn DeWall: Or we may not even actually end up wanting it. And I love to just think we don’t have to spend our time in our jobs, even if we find that we don’t love everything. First of all, we can always leave, or second, we can always adjust our mindset, like so much. We feel like that stuck, but we can’t change it because you are breathing in six feet above the ground. You always get to cheat. And now I know that we’re wrapping up or coming to the end of our time. And I really do want to talk about one of the areas, because I think that what you’re doing in the area of women’s leadership is just such important work. And you’re the Host and Executive Producer of Woman On. And could you just share a little bit about what that is? Maxie McCoy: Yeah. I’ll share what it is. I mean, at its simplest form, it’s like talk show meets Sunday school, but not religious. It’s really about giving women the information, the support, the connections, the training that they need to move forward in the areas of their life that they want to move forward. And for me, it was really born out of being at all these one-time events and also listening to all of these incredible podcasts and shows and trying to figure out how could I marry the two together so that there’s a more ritualized, more regular, more repetitive connection that allows us to get to know each other around this content that we’re consuming. And so if you think, you know, there’s an episode that comes out every week, then there’s a gathering also every week, either with your small group or in a workshop type situation with me, that allows you to get to know other people, get to know yourself and really give you small actions to be able to, to move forward on, you know, whatever decisions you have coming up. Jenn DeWall: And I think you’re right, you know, what’s so interesting is someone might initially download this podcast episode, and they’re like, wait, but they’re not necessarily giving me this like a tactical thing. Right. Because we’ve got the achievers. They’re like, how can I do it? And it’s like, how can I, how can I motivate my team? Or how can I lead a change manager management strategy? And so some of you, this might be actually really hard to just sit and do some self-reflection of like, but how am I really showing up? Because leadership is always going to start with you. It’s never just going to be your goals or the initiatives that your organization has. It is starting to do some inner work of thinking about who is the person that I am. Am I happy? Because again, all of that is going to impact your ability to be successful. To lead a team. I just love that you’re creating a place for people to, again, stop focusing solely on the external destination, but starting to really pay attention to the directions, to where they want to go because we know that that’s where our own personal success and magic happens. Maxie McCoy: A hundred percent. Yeah. It’s, you know, it’s just like kind of taking ourselves out of the box. There’s a lot of dimensions to us. They’re all connected. And you know, the more that we can incorporate all of it, like working on one area of your life, as we all know, it impacts other ones. Jenn DeWall: I mean, Maxie, the final thing that I would say is I know that people are going to go and check out Woman On. I can say I was so happy to be just to be a part of that from, you know, leading a small group of women. And it was just. Maxie McCoy: We are so lucky to have women of your caliber leading. I just, I feel grateful every day. Jenn DeWall: Well, but I think as leaders like we have to be tasked with constantly growing. We have to be tasked with thinking, Oh my gosh, like what conversations should I be having that? I’m not because we do naturally get into our own bubble, if you will, the same kind of thoughts, the same theories. And we’ve got to look at how we can continuously grow ourselves because we’re not lost. We’re just always learning. Maxie McCoy: We’re just always learning. And we’re always on our way, you know, always on our way. Jenn DeWall: Well, Maxie, thank you so much for coming on the show! I just loved this. And I also love taking the time to focus on ourselves, which I think is, again, it’s one of the things that leaders fail to do because we’re just focused on how we can get to the outcome. We forget to focus on ourselves, but how can people get in touch with you? How to Connect with Maxie Maxie McCoy: Yeah. I mean, I’m all over Instagram. It’s @MaxieMcCoy. I also write weekly on maxiemccoy.com. You’ll find a lot of fun downloadable things, like how to plan 2021 without goals. And then, Woman On Collective is at @womenoncollective On Instagram and womanoncollective.com on the internet. Jenn DeWall: And your book, You’re Not Lost, right? Maxie McCoy: You’re Not Lost. We talked about it so much. I almost forgot! Anywhere books are sold. Amazon, Target, the internet, your local book store. You’re Not Lost by Maxie McCoy, and you should be able to find it. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for giving inspiration. It was just so great to have you. Thank you, Maxie. Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for tuning into this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. I hope you enjoyed the conversation that I have with Maxie McCoy and that she gave you different insights and considerations of things that you could potentially do, actions that you can take. So you can show up and create the success that you know you deserve to have and also to be the best leader. Now, again, this episode is so important because, as leaders, we sometimes forget to focus on who we are at our core and how that then contributes to our ability to lead. And I hope that Maxie shared with you some valuable tools and techniques for how you can get closer to understanding yourself and use that to your advantage in how you can lead, motivate, and engage and connect with others. Now, if you enjoyed today’s podcast episode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service or share it with a friend. If you want to connect with Maxie McCoy, you can find her on Instagram @MaxieMcCoy, or you can find her through Woman ON, which is @womenoncollective. Now, if you want to know how you can better develop yourself, do not hesitate to reach out to us because, at Crestcom, we want to help you be the best leader that you can be. So jump on over to Crestcom.com if you want to know more about our monthly leadership offerings. Until next time!   The post You’re Not Lost! Find Your Direction Your Own Way with Author, Host and Executive Producer, Maxie McCoy appeared first on Crestcom International.

Running in the Rain with Time Freedom Coach and Author, Paul Weston Jenn DeWall: Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Paul Weston. Paul grew up in Yorkshire, England, and after a youth absorbed in music and sport- at the age of 16, joined the Royal Marines band service. And over the next 26 years, his duties took him around the globe. And on completion of his military career, he immigrated to Canada, where he joined the North American corporate world, consulting in leadership development and sales. He also coaches executives and corporations as well as individuals in time-freedom techniques. Who doesn’t want to have more freedom with their time? Paul’s a multiple Ironman triathlete, an international duathlete. His mantra is not to find time to do things but to plan it. His Energy Zone theory adopts the principle that too much of our effort is wasted on pointless distractions and too many people make terrible excuses rather than getting on with life. I hope you enjoy this conversation as I sit down with Paul Weston and discuss his newest book, Running in the Rain. Meet Paul Weston, Time Freedom Coach Jenn DeWall: Hi, everyone. On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I am sitting down with Time Freedom Coach Paul Weston. Some of you might be thinking, what does a time freedom coach do? Well, I want to hear from Paul. For those that may be unfamiliar with Paul— Paul, why don’t you just go ahead and introduce yourself to The Leadership Habit audience? Paul Weston: Yeah. Thanks, Jenn. Great to see you. So a Time-Freedom Coach. This is something that’s evolved over many years. As you gather, I’m from the UK. I was a Royal Marines officer for many years and came to North America in 2005. I’ve worked with Crestcom, I’ve facilitated many Crestcom classes or with lots of clients sold some of the programs. But my main focus now, while still being attached to Crestcom, is to help people create time. I free them up because I’m quite good at freeing up time. I’m an Ironman triathlete, which takes a lot of time to prepare and train and getting in the swimming pool, and getting long bike rides and run and eat. You can’t just decide one day; I’m going to do a little bit of this, a little bit of that. You have to plan it. So I free time up, but I help people free their time up as well. By being more efficient, more productive, more functional, and more effective so that you know, we can spend more time doing the things we love with the people we really enjoy being with. And that’s really what my role is in life is to help people free up time to do more things they enjoy. Jenn DeWall: So instead of people saying, can you give me an extra hour on this day? You can say no, but I can help you manage your time better, so it feels like you have an extra hour. Paul Weston: Yeah, exactly. That. So, you know, let’s stop, let’s not around and dig around. Let’s get on me, what we need to do, get it finished and then do something which is much more fun than actually what we’re paid to do- really enjoy life. So, yeah, that’s what it’s all about. What Inspired Your New Book, Running in the Rain? Jenn DeWall: What kind of inspired you to want to bring this message forward? I mean, I know that you just published your first book, Running in the Rain. What inspired you to bring this message to people? Why now? Paul Weston: Well, I’ve always been a very organized person. I think I got that from my parents. You know, I’m an only child, and I would only say every minute of every day was structured, but we, you know, we were very organized. And I was taught to be very organized. And I joined the military, which is one very organized environment that you’re in. You know, it’s not a lot of freedom there, but actually, you can create freedom in the military. And then when I, when I got into the business, I found that I was very effective. When I got into triathlons a few years ago, I found out why, if I’m going to be doing these really long races where I do a lot of training, I have to sort of schedule my time to do it. And people say, wow, you know, you’re very efficient in what you do. I see you enjoying time off. You’re going to play golf, go on bike rides, all the things that I’d love to do more of. How do you find the time? And I said I don’t find the time. I schedule it. I plan the time. And people said, Oh, you should, you should write a book about that because you seem very good at doing these things and had been kind of percolating in my mind. And I figured I better take my own advice and write a book. If I’m going to do it, stop messing around and get on and actually write to a book. And that’s really where the book came from. It’s all about getting stuff done, really. I, you know, it’s time to do it. So I started writing about a year ago and went with that, and it’s getting great feedback. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Well, congratulations on a first book that requires an extreme amount of dedication and obviously time management to be able to get it through to a complete and finished product. When you were writing this book, who did you really want to pick up and read it? Who was this for? Paul Weston: Well, that’s really interesting, actually, because I didn’t really have a target in mind. I just started writing one day. I mean, the book Running in the Rain is a metaphor for life. I hear people say, Oh, we didn’t go for a run today because it was raining. And that’s a really poor excuse going for not going on a run. Because if you go for a run, as long as you put enough effort in, you’re probably going to have to have a shower when you get back and put clean clothes on and everything like that. So what difference does a bit of rain make? You know, so to me, running is like life. We’re always moving forward from the day we’re born to the day, you know, we move on. We kind of move forward. We move quickly, and we move slowly. We moved spiritually, educationally. We moved emotionally. We’re always moving forward rather than like running. And sometimes, we make excuses for not doing things. And rain is a poor excuse for not going for a run. So running in the range of metaphor for life for me, but as I’ve sort of developed the book, and I worked with my editors, been fantastic and my publisher also been great. And I’ve put the book out to a number of people. Who’s, you know, senior executives in major corporations and friends and family. And so on that go back to me with some great reviews and said, you know, this would really help business leaders who are stalling with various things. And they’re sitting strategically on things they’re not moving forward, busy professionals. I think that’s a really target people who feel that their day is getting longer and longer and longer, certainly, human resource professionals who see that people may be sort of approaching burnout at times and too much going on and want to be more functional the way they do things. My oldest stepdaughter’s about to graduate from university. She went into investment banking. A lot of what is in the book is stuff I’ve helped her with over the years on being more practical. And when she was in the hall of residence in year one, she used to go off to the laundry room without her phone to work on projects—so ambitious students, couch potatoes that want to get up and get more things done. And really, anybody that wants to get more out of life would probably benefit from having a read of some of them, some of the things in the book. The Biggest Challenge to Time Management- Distractions Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Managing our time. Because if we don’t manage it, it’s still ticking. Before we jump more into your book, running in the rain. I just want to ask a question from your perspective, why do you think people don’t manage their time? I know you said there are excuses, and I know I might be one of those people that probably make some excuse like that when it comes to running. Absolutely. But why do you think that people don’t manage their time well? Paul Weston: The biggest one is distractions. Without a doubt, I did a lot of research. Way more research just for the book, but in a whole variety of other things, I’ve talked to hundreds and hundreds of senior business executives over the last couple of years with regards to what’s stopping them from being functional. And the number one thing that floated to the top was distractions, the constant distractions in the workplace, which is the biggest thing. And those, we can turn those extra distractions into excuses. We become addicted to them, and we look for them because we’re doing something we don’t really want to do with trouble. Having trouble focusing on it on a distraction will pull us away from it. So a phone or an email, or an instant message or a chat message. There’s an excuse to go and do that. And, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of people in the last year who are working from home, and they say, I’m working in the kitchen. I’m looking at the fridge. And the fridge is calling me in. I’ve put on 15 pounds just to be working from home, because that fridge is looking at me, calling out to me. And that’s a distraction. And so shall I write a bit more of this report or should I go and have a cup of tea, make a sandwich? We take that alternative. So without a doubt, distractions for me have been the biggest thing that stood out from all my research and why people don’t get things done. It’s because they get distracted away from it. It’s huge. It’s massive. And there are all sorts of health implications to that as well. Jenn DeWall: No, but I mean, it’s so true. I like to identify myself, as I would say, as a fairly productive person, but all of a sudden, let’s see, there’s a glitch in an app like I had this morning, and it wasn’t a pressing thing, but I somehow subconsciously made it a priority. And I would say that was actually a distraction, not something that needed to be done, but yet I gave it all of my attention. Stop Letting Email Distract You Paul Weston: You know, we sort of- the average response time to an email is about six minutes. And we, you know, there’s very, very, very few that we have to respond to within six minutes; we could leave them for several hours. Most of them, probably 99% of the emails we get, no, probably leave several hours, get the job done, then go and prioritize your emails. Then do the next task. Don’t keep responding to your emails. There’s a part of the book where I talk about mailrooms. If you imagine a downtown business years ago, there would be a mailroom, and the mail would arrive once a day. It would be sorted by the team who was passed up the line to the offices, and the executive would have the mail arrived on the desk once a day, and they wouldn’t stop everything to read the mail that put some time aside later to go through it. And maybe their executive assistant would filter some of it. And then we have more phone calls, and then we had a fax machine, and it’d be one fax machine in the office. And now we have emails. Now, could you imagine if people responded to a fax machine as they respond to email, which is almost instantaneously? Can you imagine if there’s 30 people working in an office and the fax machine buzz and started clicking out paper, and everybody ran across to it to see what it was? We wouldn’t do that back to the mailroom as soon as an envelope arrived through the Alexa with a name on it. No, but that’s how people respond to emails. They feel like they have to be constantly ready to receive them. And, you know, managers, leaders, and managers almost expect the teams to be available for emails. And they send something out to the team saying, Hey guys, what do you think of this? And that generates an hour of reply-all messages going around the team. And then they say, Hey guys, have you finished this work yet? No. Well, why not? Because she keeps sending us to reply, all emails that we do, what we’re doing to get on with it. And it’s a vicious circle that goes round and round and round. So even emails, we can, we can cut down so many emails if we just manage our teams better. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I love that perspective too. Just about the mailroom, because it is true. I think that when we had mail, even, you know, when we still were probably getting into more email usage, but we still relied on mail. It’s not like I jumped on it when the mail came and I felt like I actively had to do something, but that is the pressure that people put, Oh my gosh, there’s something, something came into my email box may be important because someone chose to send it and, or we put the pressure that, Oh my gosh, someone’s going to think that I’m not paying attention if I don’t respond right away. But really, that’s just your own pressure that you’re putting in. It’s also causing you to goof up or essentially mismanage your time and how productive you can be. Paul Weston: It is. And if you think about emails, I mean, I’m sure you’re like me, that you’ve sent an email to somebody kind of hoping they don’t reply for a day or so, because you’ve got other work to do and they still don’t reply to you. And now it’s like, oh, I better get back to them. And they’re probably thinking, leave me alone. You know, I’ve sent it back to you. I passed it over to you. You work with it now. And suddenly, we’ve taken all the time on these emails. And the funny thing is you actually pick the phone up and talk to them. You could probably save 20 emails in like two minutes or something like that. There’s so much work that can be done. Just actually talking to people instead of actually going backward and forwards with emails, we start to become addicted to them. You know, they pull us in, and they suck us in, and we wait for that little dot to pop up on the edge of your screen. Oh, there’s an email better go and do that. Manage Your Energy Zones Jenn DeWall: Perfect. Gosh. Yeah, no, absolutely. I want to dive into your book now and talk about a few of the concepts that are from your book, Running in the Rain. And one of those is the energy zones principle. Can you explain that concept to me? Paul Weston: Yeah, sure. So I have a theory that we spend every minute of our lives in one of three energy zones. The first one is Professional. So it’s doing stuff that gives us money, got this revenue. Anything we do that we’re paid to do either as an employee or as a business owner, entrepreneur, anything that generates revenue. A job, effectively. So the second one is what I call Personal. And this is a zone where we’re doing “me” stuff. So it could be going to a yoga class. With me, it would be training, swimming, cycling, running, I’m a musician, so I could be playing a musical instrument. It could be sitting, reading a book, or just on your own totally on your own time is personal time. And the last one is the Social Energy zone where we’re with our family, with our friends, even with our work colleagues, when we’re not doing specific work things, we could be at lunch with your team, those sorts of things, Social Energy Zone. Now when I talk about energy zones, we get the most energy from that, and we put the most energy into those. If we’re only doing activities that are unique to that, and if we start to dilute them, it really drains our energy away. Let me give you an example. If I’m working on a project on my laptop and I have to get a report done or proposal or some invoicing or something like that for a client and my phone buzzes, and it’s a Facebook message as somebody commented on something I was doing at the weekend and I stopped, I’ve now diluted my social energy zone. Because this could be a group thing, I’m involved in with my personal, not professional, energy zone. So now it starts to put me back. I’ve diluted something. If I turned my phone off and got what I was working on finished, I can then take a five-minute break and go into my social energies to check social media. And it zaps your energy. You know, if you’re sitting in the evening on your deck with a glass of wine, reading a book in your “me” zone, your personal zone and your phone buzzes, and it’s, it’s your manager saying, Hey, did you finish this off today? You’ve now got your professional energy zone diluting with your personal energy zone. And that starts to suck away your personal energy zone. Okay. And that detracts from what you’re trying to achieve as well. I know there’s an impact on it, us, you know, we want to meet Tom. We have to have our own time. Okay. And finally, our Social Energy zone. There’s a lot of families who, you know, moms and dads who are listening to this will probably agree with me that if you have teenagers and you sit and having a family dinner and one of the kids, or all the kids are on their phone doing Snapchat and Instagram and those sorts of things, that’s really bad for the family dynamics. Same as if mum or dad are answering work emails, while they’re sitting around the dinner table, it needs to be phones away, really enjoy that social energy time. So those are the three energy zones, and we’re more productive if we can just stay within those zones and then do what we need to do in those zones rather than diluting them because that really zaps our energy away. So that’s really a theory I have. And more and more people start to realize now that I need to block these zones off to get more things done and be more productive. Jenn DeWall: So it’s essentially like a way of just saying that if I want to be as productive in each of these three areas, whether that be personal, professional, or social, I’ve got to manage my time and give them their own due time. It’s not blending or diluting them, as you would say, what would, is it supposed to have them be maybe an equal amount throughout your day? Or what would you say is the recommendation for where to spend your time, or does that depend on your own goals? And I guess what you want personally. One Energy Zone at a Time Paul Weston: Yeah, it goes, and I like to sort of schedule, so, you know, I, I’m not a great fan of Facebook, but being an ex-pat Brit living in North America is a great way for me to keep in touch with family and friends in the UK. But I do three minutes on Facebook in the morning, three minutes on Facebook in the evening, that’s it, six minutes a day. I’ve managed to bring that down from like an hour a day. I didn’t realize how much time I’m spending on Facebook. And it’s quite frightening. So I will look at that in the morning. I look at it and evening, and that’s it. That’s all I do. Obviously, Monday to Friday, you’re going to be predominantly in your professional energy. So, but if you can get everything done, you shouldn’t have to go back there in the evenings and weekends. And obviously, in the evening, it’s fine to say, Hey, I just block an hour on my own to read a book, or it depends on what your social situation is, your family environment, those sorts of things. But the key is to schedule it, you know, obviously during the, during the working day, you need to be scheduling your prime sort of professional energy zones, but you know, why not schedule, but you do it naturally if you’re in a yoga class. So you go in for a run or something, not I, you schedule it naturally, but Hey, why not? On Sunday afternoon, schedule two hours of social energy time and the whole family together doing something, going for a walk or going to the movie, or, you know, doing something together as a group, you schedule that real social energy time, leave all the phones switched off. You’ll get so much more value from that. Then letting things dilute inside it. Goals Stink. Wait, What? Jenn DeWall: I, gosh, I struggle a lot from diluting. I think I probably have a lot in the professional area, but then yes, I know that the second that I might get a ping or I guess whether it could be a notification from Instagram, or it’s a poll from Facebook, someone wants you to do whatever. But I know that I absolutely just, I’m sure that a lot of people are even listening to this now. And they’re like, I’m probably diluting a lot of my time. So, I’m definitely wasting it, right? There’s not a better way to say that. Like we’re just wasting it, and then we’re wasting that return on investment. We’re just not getting that true achievement or end goal that we say, which leads me into my next question, about goals, you make a bold statement, a bold statement, especially for a leadership habit or leadership podcast, that Goals Stink. What do you mean by that? Paul Weston: Well, there’s a whole chapter. This is chapter three of the book, called Goals Really, Really Stink. Okay. So let’s think about goals for a few minutes. And if you imagine again, a football game, a hockey game, the basketball, whatever, there’s two teams, what do they have in common? They both have the same goal, and for every game, one of them is successful, and one of them fails. Okay. So goals kind of stink. Let me give you an analogy of a good goal—say the goal is a marathon, somebody wants to run a marathon. Maybe early thirties, I left high school, left college had not really done any exercise. They might have a couple of young kids, and they’ve, you know, they’re not the fittest and healthiest and want to run around and be healthy and say, okay, I’m going to run a marathon in six months’ time. So that’s their goal to run the marathon. So you do the marathon, and you know they lose some weight and they feel good about things, and they finish it, they get the medal and the t-shirt, and they put it all over social media and the family there and great they’ve done their goal. The following day, they go back to the burgers and the beer and the sofa, and three or four months later, they are back right where they were when they started. What does that goal actually achieve? It has achieved nothing, okay. Yeah, they’ve done the marathon, but how has that changed them as a person? It really hasn’t. They’ve checked one box, and that’s it, the first thing I say to somebody who says, Oh, I want to run a marathon. I’ll say, why? Why do you want to run a marathon? And they’ll say, oh, I want to get fit. I want to get healthy or have a better diet. I want to feel good about myself and look really great. You Need a Better System Paul Weston: Okay. So the marathon is just a stepping stone to get there. What you really want, what you really want to achieve is a better lifestyle? You want to eat healthily. You want to sort of, you know, feel good, more energy and you know, your family looking and go, wow, they look terrific or really fit and great. So that’s the kind of routine, the lifestyle if you like in order to achieve that, you, therefore, need a system. So if you do actually want to run a marathon and you want to feel great, then you’re probably going to need to get a running coach. If you’ve never done it before, get running shoes, talk to a dietician, maybe go and get registered massage therapists and all these sorts of things. But what happens is it’s the system that really counts. Because of the marathon, the goal is simply a measurement tool to see if your system works. So maybe in a year’s time, you look back and say, my routine is to be fit and healthy. I have a system. I do this, this, this, and this, and the marathon is part of it. Now, am I actually better? Yes. Am I sticking with it? Yes. Am I feeling good? Yes. Your system works. The goal is just a measurement tool to see if the system is working, and you know, it’s rather like yoga. I hear people say. I want to do more yoga. Why? Because I want to feel good and want to be more energetic and more supple. Okay. So you don’t just want to do yoga. You want to actually be, have a better lifestyle. It’s your lifestyle. Or do you just want to do yoga because you want to give the guy who owns the yoga center down the road 200 bucks a month? No, that’s not the reason for doing it. The reason is I want to feel good. Definitely need a system. What’s your system? Probably pay for a month in advance, book the classes, and finish work early to make sure you’re there at six o’clock, three evenings a week. So, you know, in a month’s time, you test the system. Am I doing more yoga? Yes. Your goal tells you, your system is now working. To me, systems are more important than goals. Goals are just a measurement tool to see if your system works. The book is all about systems, creating systems to build a more fulfilling and functional life. Jenn DeWall: So essentially, if we want to start with a goal or something that we want to achieve, start with the system of how you’re going to achieve it instead of the goal. So making the plan well out of curiosity, why are systems so important to you? You know, to write a book on systems and to also make that, Hey, goals, that’s not our starting place, right? The counterpoint there, but why are systems so important? Paul Weston: Well, systems are really the methodology that we use to be successful and be happy. And even people who adopt a free and flexible lifestyle rather than being restricted by rules and laws still create some sort of a system in order to live in that way. It isn’t just as formulated or structured as others might be. So, you know, we will have a system in our life, but I just think you get so much more out of life if you do have that system. And the goal is just a test point to see if your system is actually working or not. Because like I said, two teams, competing in a game of sport. One has both have the same goal. The team that wins probably wins because they have a better system. It could be player recruitment, could be coaching, could be training. It could be facilities, whatever it’s the system that actually proves whether or not you’re working. That’s why they’re so important. We naturally do it. But if you purely focused on the goals, that really starts to break down because, you know, if you don’t get that, it’s part of the system that’s failed you. That’s the thing you need to change. Not the goals. What if You Don’t Feel Like Running in the Rain? Jenn DeWall: Well, it sounds like what you’re saying, too, is that people have a goal, but they completely forget about the how. Like, how are you going to do that? And that’s why you need to have the system there. And I know for me, it’s, it’s, you know, sometimes, and I’m sure some people can relate to this. It’s completely unintentional but had I had a system. Right. And I’m sure a lot of people experienced this from shifting from a face-to-face work environment to the home office. They lost the system that they had or in that routine. And, you know, by bringing that back, it can help boost their productivity engagement, so on and so forth. But it’s easy to lose your system. Like sometimes it’s really like, what do you say when, you know, Oh, what if I just have a bad day? I might have a system. And I’m like, I know that goal is to be healthy, but I don’t want to today. Like, what do you say when sometimes that self-talk will come up? Paul Weston: No, that could be fine. I mean, one of the great things about systems is there will be a glitch. There will be a slight glitch in the system, and you overcome that to move forward. I mean, we talk about working from home now. And when I talk to business executives and knowledge workers, when people used to commute to work, I say to them, you know, when this all kicked off, you know, almost a year ago, now. I say, have a system for working at home, have a very important system for working at home. And the first thing is, okay, not only are you working at home, you’re actually living at work. Okay. You’re now living in the workspace. You need to cut off. And a lot of people I spoke to, I said, okay, how long is your commute? It’s an hour each way. What are you going to do in the hour in the morning now, or what are you going to do with an hour in the evening? That’s 10 hours a week. What are you doing with that time? So you need to have a system to use that time. Otherwise, it would dilute into your working day. And a lot of people took it on and said. I’ve got a 10 hour a week project. Now that’s the system they created to get more after that time, because otherwise I’ll end up doing an extra two hours work a day, or their work will stretch out because there are distractions that affect them during the day and so on. And you know, when they go back to commuting, they’re going to have to really find out and plot out what they were doing because suddenly they got to find 10 hours from somewhere if they’ve allowed that to be diluted. And also another great example of having a system, how am I now going to manage my days when I’m not commuting and use that time wisely? Create a system to manage that time that you used to have for commuting for something constructive. Jenn DeWall: Don’t let the time just pass you by or lose that time. You touched on distractions again. And to someone listening, they might say, Paul, I mean, I work from home. The kids are running around. The dog is barking. Distractions are just a normal part of life. How do you respond to that? When someone’s like, I can’t, you know, they’re at the mercy of the distraction because they’re just there. Paul Weston: Yeah. Well, they are a distraction. They are a way of life if you allow them to be a way of life. And you know, the trick is to be disciplined enough to realize that we are not a, it’s not a fact of life. That we can easily manage and control them if we simply have a system in place to deal with them. We have a distraction freedom program, which has gotten a lot of steam, becoming very, very popular. And we talk about focus zones. Create a Focus Zone Jenn DeWall: Oh yeah, what are focus zones? Paul Weston: Focus Zones. You have to read the book to really find out all about it, but basically, it’s creating a sanctuary. It’s a. It’s a place of peace and quiet. And even if you have kids in the house, that may be eight o’clock at night. When you know, when, when your partner is looking after the kids or vice versa, it’s scheduling that time. And it was sending out a do not disturb signal to the community. In other words, leave me alone. This is what I’m doing, why I’m doing it, what the benefits will be. And funny thing, if you tell your team that I’m going to be doing this, you know, it’s maybe gathering leads for a new sales incentive that’s coming up, they’ll go, okay, that’s good. We need that. We’re going to leave you in peace to do it. So there’s a reason why you’re creating this sanctuary. It’s building communication, operates standard operating procedures, things like turning off email, actually using your Out of Office message to say, today is whatever date I will not be available between 10 and 11 and three and four to answer emails. If your, if your message is urgent, please text me. And then the only thing you have switched on is your text so that you’re not reacting to instant message to chat, to email, to anything else that’s going on, Slack, or any apps. The only thing that’s going to happen is your phone will buzz if it’s critical. And the companies that we work with, when we look at those communications, we discover actually very, very, very few things are actually critical. They have to be dealt with immediately. Unless, of course, you’re customer-facing is a little bit different. It’s creating a clear and cognitively challenging task, no going to focus on doing routine work, or as much as I want to do, or as much as I can do. It has to be a specific challenging task, so you can focus on it and execute profound work. There needs to be a toolkit. So what you need, I mean, if you remember back in the day, if you shut your door to get some work done in the office and suddenly realized after 10 minutes, you needed to print something, what happens? You walk to the printer, and three or four people will stop you. You start talking, okay? Just saying now,  you’re going to go into your focus zone or to do some work and you realize you need an attachment to an email, you open your inbox, and what’s happened? Three or four emails pop up. You then get distracted and start answering the emails. You need to make sure you’ve got everything. We call it the Castaway scenario. You’re on an island with no wifi, no printer. You’ve got to take everything you need to do that job in your focus. So otherwise, you got to swim with the shop to get it. It’s a great idea. One of our clients came up with this. It’s like a Castaway syndrome. Schedule your time. When are you going to do it? And for how long come up with an exit strategy to come out of the focus zone and say, did it work? Did I execute what I needed to? If I did give myself a reward, and that could be a social media break, or it could be a walk around the block or a coffee, or I’ll have a little bit of chocolate. If I’ve done a focus zone and I managed to get everything done that I need. And what we find is this becomes contagious as certain individuals in a team start to do it more, more people start to do it. People often say, well, my boss won’t let me. I said, well, tell your boss that you’re doing this for this reason. We’re finishing this report. So we can get back to the customer by five o’clock today. I need to be left alone for an hour. I’ve never heard anybody say, Oh, my boss won’t let me. They’ve said that sounds like a great idea. And the more people that do it, it starts to become a team culture. And the team starts to create focus zones. It’s really, really interesting, that dynamic. And we do it at the time you, we talked about personal energy zone. Could you imagine going to a yoga class and somebody’s phone keeps beeping, and they keep answering texts in the yoga class? Jenn DeWall: That’s the opposite of what I want when I walk out of yoga, Paul Weston: Exactly that. And we do it in yoga classes because we’re focused on doing yoga. Why can’t we do it once or twice a day in the work environment to get stuff done? Jenn DeWall: So my question then is, is this because I think there might be some people and I know I’ve had this experience. You can, so this is maybe advice. What would you say to like these two groups? What would you say to the manager that just cannot let their employees work because they feel like they instantly need to tell them or do this or that? They exist, right? They might say, so happy that you’re so productive, but then here you go, here are 20 things that I want you to focus on. Even after they said, Hey, could you give me a minute? And so what would you say to the leader to be able to support and really let go and allow people to have focus time? Because I think leaders sometimes can be at fault for really causing distractions. And then, what advice would you have for the individual to also maintain those boundaries to their leader? You know, how would you, what would you recommend? Because I think that’s an issue that some people face. Paul Weston: Yeah, it’s, it’s a really important point and a very important question as well. In the research we did for the book and for the program, we found that leaders and managers are about 70% of the distractions that people have to face. They cause distractions. We used to call it in the military, mission creep. You’re executing a mission, and the leader suddenly shifts in a different direction. And you move that, and he moves again. And when I talked to sort of frontline staff and say, what’s the biggest distraction you have to face. They kind of say our manager really, they never sort of stopped interacting with us. It’s constant, constant, constant all the time. And there’s a great technique that I used years ago. And I’ve used it when I was working in a management position in corporate and when I’ve been in the military. And it’s a little, just have a huddle just to have a get together in the morning with the team and say, okay guys, this is what we need to execute today. What are your priorities to make sure the team is all on-site? Then I would say to the team who needs me for a one-on-one today who needs a piece of me today, somebody might say, I need you for 15 minutes. Okay. Nine 30. You and they sit down for 15 minutes. Okay. Somebody else’s, I need a half now, 10 o’clock I’ll schedule that. And some also other, a better thing to do this morning, this afternoon. Why don’t we sit down at two o’clock great- half an hour? Now those guys probably won’t connect with me, and you shouldn’t connect with them between now and when you go to meet with them, which cuts out a lot of distractions. Okay. So you have one-on-one time. Yeah, exactly. One-On-One time with those people. When you can go through, I mean, you just think how much you can discuss. Do you think 15 minutes one-on-one rather than emailing and interrupting? So that’s a great tool. As a manager, a little five-minute huddle, first thing in the morning, do it standing up. Don’t sit down, do it standing up. It’s funny, old thing, you do stand up meeting it’s much quicker and more efficient than sitting down. Okay. And then, in the afternoon, do the same things. They want your quick review of the morning. Who needs a piece of me this afternoon, schedule closing on to the guys who need to be left alone today? So that everybody in the team or tell everybody else, guys are going to be offline from 9:30 to 10:30. I’ve got to finish this project. Okay? So everybody will work around that, 9:30 to 10. For that, you can do this remotely. You could do it with group check-ins on Zoom, you know, 8:30, nine o’clock in the morning. And everybody knows they’re going to go dark at 9:30. And there are more and more people who practice this. Using the ABC List to Manage Tasks Paul Weston: They said, okay, he’s right. Here are our focus zones- 9:30 to 10:30 today, 2:30, 3;30 this afternoon. We’re going to go into a focus zone with no communication. Get on with work. We’re going to finish at five, and he’s done for the day. It makes you way, way more productive and effective. From the other side, from the staff member’s side. If you think you’re working on something, and this is something we talk about in the book, the ABC list, A is the tasks that you have to do today, B is a task that can be done tomorrow or the day after, and C is backlog tasks that will be brought forward later. It’s rather like the Kanban methodology. I’m sure a lot of people know about Kanban. Everybody in our little organization is a Kanban professional. So we actually, that’s great, it’s a great sort of process. But if my boss came to me and said, Hey, Paul, I need to do this today. I show him my A list and say, boss, this is what I’m working on. Okay. Which of these do you want me to take off? Because I cannot do all of them. And usually, the boss would go, Oh yeah, I see what you’re doing now. Okay. Tell you what, let me take that one off you, you do this. Okay. It’s showing them what you’re doing. And thereby saying, I can’t do all of these things. I can do so many. I can do them well. Which ones do you want me to put into my BOC list to get this done? So they know what you’re working on. And finally, there’s a great technique that I always used to do in a leadership position. I’d write down for each member of my team that started the week the top five priorities that I think they should be working on that week. And I say to them, write down your top five priorities. I want to see if they align. If they don’t align, we’ve got a problem there. Okay. Cause they’re working on stuff that I don’t think they should be working on. Sometimes I’ll look at it and go, actually, you’re right. Yeah. I forgot about that. That does need to be done. They have to align. If you don’t align, how’s it going to work and then give them time to get on with it and focus on it. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Well, and it’s people, I love the idea of making the CEO accountable to- the CEO, the managers, the leadership, the directors, whoever is doing that accountable to what they’re delegating. Making sure because I think there are still people that personalize it. You know, they feel like if I say no to this, or I have to do it all because they asked it that, you know, having a list or something that’s outside of themselves can actually be a great guide or help in the conversation instead of feeling like you’re saying no, or in some way, not respecting what they’re asking you to do. I like that approach just because it seems like it’s, yeah, it’s outside of them. Right. It takes a little bit of that fear and intimidation out of, says pushing back, I guess, because we don’t want to push back against our bosses. So I love that technique. Paul Weston: Yeah. It’s a really interesting point. And you know, I think the more experienced you become you and the relationship you build with your team and, you know, as a leader to manage it, I wouldn’t say do this. I would say, is there any reason why you’re not able to complete this task over the next two days? If I turn around to me and say, well, actually, I’ve got this, this, this, and this on. Okay, fine. Yeah. I can see what you’re doing. Crack on with that. I’ll find somebody else who needs to do that. Is there any reason why you wouldn’t be able to finish this by Friday? You know, that’s a very different approach to saying do this by Friday because I could be pawning more and more stuff on them. So I need to know where they’re at with stuff. And that’s where the one-on-ones come in. Little team huddle, we get together. And you say any reason why I can’t get this done by Friday? Or what can I do to help you get this done by Friday? And it could be, you know, there’s a four-hour meeting on Thursday. If you could put me upfront, present my report, I could be done within an hour that frees, you know, three hours. Absolutely. We can do that. What do you need from me to get this done? Because he could be, they’re the only ones with the skills to do it. So those were important little communication techniques that can really help the team cohesiveness. What Will People Learn from Running in the Rain? Jenn DeWall: I love that. I know we have to wrap up the podcast, but before I, before we wrap up, the one thing I wanted to just ask in closing is, you know, when you wrote this book running in the rain, what did you hope that people walk away? You know, what’s the imprint that you want to have from someone that’s read, that’s going to be reading the book. What do you want them to walk away with? Paul Weston: I hope it encourages people to really look at what they want to achieve, not only in their careers but in their personal and in their social lives, consider whether they are truly achieving as much as they possibly can. And then create systems to schedule a time to get the things done that they really want to get done. And you know, I’m not saying we should just throw goals away. It’s important to have a goal. You know, I’m hoping we’re back doing racing triathlons this year, hoping to do an Ironman again in August. I am all my training on that. Goals are very, very important. Don’t get me wrong. It’s just that if we just focus on the, on the goal, not the routine, the lifestyle that will lead us to the goal and the system that we need to put in place, then the goals really, you know, they’re not going to fit well with how we want to run our lives. So really, the book, I want people to read the book and say yeah, I really need to get moving. And sometimes I don’t do things because I make a really poor and weak excuse for not doing it. So I should get out there and run, whether it’s raining or not, metaphorically speaking or realistically don’t make excuses out of the rain- go for it. Where Can People Find Out More? Jenn DeWall: That’s so important just to people. You know, I love that you wrote a book that inspires people to, first of all, reflect, create awareness around, really? How are you spending your time, and is it productive, or is it really where you want to be spending your time? And if it’s not, then you’ve got to take your own accountability and start to make some systems to make your goals, make these things, your aspirations, a reality. Where do people get this book? Where can they find Running in the Rain? Paul Weston: Well, the book’s available on Amazon. It’s available in hard copy and as an e-book, so Kindle and all the usual places. And you can actually get the link to the book through our website. So AndrewJane.com and AndrewJane, one word, the usual spelling of Andrew and Jane dot com is our company website. And you’ll see it, one of the drop-downs at the top running in the rain, and on that link will be Amazon. Or you could just go into Amazon search, Running in the Rain. The book will pop up. There will be an audiobook out a little bit later in the year. But yeah, for the moment, It’ll be the hard copy, and the e-book will be available online. Jenn DeWall: And then how do people get in touch with you? Would you recommend they go into your website? Where do you recommend connecting on LinkedIn, or where do they go if they want to know more about your programs and what you offer? Paul Weston: Well, you can find me through Crestcom, first of all, because I’m still involved working with all new franchisees, coaching them in the Crestcom process and everything. Also LinkedIn, you can find me on LinkedIn. And also again, through our website, or paulweston@andrewjane.com. AndrewJane.com is our website. So you can find us there as well. And if you bought the book, there are a couple of little bits in there. And the book also has a little one-minute video QR code at the end of each chapter, a little video of me summarizing the chapter. So you can get to see me do some of that stuff as well. So we’re really excited that we’re getting this book out to everybody. Jenn DeWall: Awesome! Well, thank you so much for just taking your time to sit down and talk to our audience about how we can start to take back our life and be more productive just by thinking about how we manage our time—the one thing we all have. Paul Weston: Exactly. We certainly do! Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much, Paul! It was a great conversation! Paul Weston: Thanks, Jenn, it was great talking to you! Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for tuning in on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast as we sat down and connected with Time Freedom Coach, author, and speaker, Paul Weston. Now, if you want to get his book, Running in the Rain, you can find it on Amazon, or you’ve been connected with him and purchase his book on his website at AndrewJane.com. Now, if you know someone that could benefit from being able to manage their time better, be sure to share this podcast with them. And don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.   The post Running in the Rain with Time Freedom Coach and Author, Paul Weston appeared first on Crestcom International.

The Fine Art of Small Talk with Bestselling Author, Debra Fine Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Debra Fine. Who is she? Well, a former engineer, Debra Fine is the author of bestselling books. The Fine Art of Small Talk: How to Start a Conversation, Keep it Going, Build Networking Skills- and Leave a Positive Impression; as well as The Fine Art of Big Talk; along with her just-released third book in the “Fine Art” series, Beyond Texting: the Fine Art of Face-to-Face Communication for Teenagers. All of these books are translated and published in two dozen countries across the globe. So, Debra is a 25-year member of the National Speakers Association and she presents on stage and virtually as a keynote speaker and trainer to hundreds of audiences around the world that include the National Electrical Contractors Association, Google, Amazon, and so many more. Now you can find her as a regular Huffington Post blogger. Her recent media appearances include the TODAY Show, NPR Morning Edition, Fox Business News, the New York Times, and CNN. I am so excited to welcome Debra Fine to the show. As we talk about The Fine Art of Small Talk. Full Transcript Below:  Meet Debra Fine Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall and in today’s episode, of The Leadership Habit podcast I am sitting down with public speaker author, and some might consider her the dominant driving force behind the art of small talk, Mrs. Debra Fine. Debra, how are you doing today? Debra Fine: Jenn DeWall. It’s a, it’s a bleary day, but I feel sunny because I feel sunny for many different reasons. The new year ahead, a vaccine in my sights, and my health and your health, too, Jenn DeWall, more than anything. At heart, I’m feeling great! Jenn DeWall: Well, I’m having you on because you’ve written multiple books on the art of small talk. So, but my audience doesn’t know you yet. So could you just go ahead and introduce yourself and talk about who you are and what you do. Debra Fine: Thank you for asking Jenn. I’m excited to say that I used to be an engineer. That’s what my education is. That was my background. And that’s what led me to where I am today is that I did not choose engineering because I was an engineer at heart. I chose engineering because I was great at math and I did not want to really talk to anybody. I thought it was the perfect profession. Seriously. If I had wanted to chat with people, Jenn, I would have chosen your profession. I would have been an interviewer or I would have been a host. I would have been a leader. I would have been in sales. I would have been a teacher, but, I was not born with the gift of gab. As your audience can tell you were- I was not born with it. And I used to think, wow, you know, how is it that people are so charismatic? But I knew that I wasn’t born with a gift of gab. So I gave up right away. It was just like, I knew I didn’t have that talent. I had other talents obviously. And that was just how it was. So I plotted along and another key ingredient to why I started a business talking about small talk, which trust me, most engineers think is a waste of saliva. And my guess is your audience might’ve thought that when they originally started listening as well. Because if you’re in leadership, you just think, you know, I have projects to lead. I have people to manage. I have tasks to get done. We think small talk is like talking about the Denver Broncos or talking about the weather, but there is so much more involved. And I didn’t know that either. I had a very bad attitude about small talk. So with that in my life, I thought, how are people like Jenn DeWall doing it? What are they doing that makes them so good with people? How is it that they seem to hit it off with everybody, that there is chemistry? What, what are they doing? So I spent a year’s worth of time on research, honest to goodness only an engineer would do this. And so how do you launch conversations? How do you get through those awkward moments? Sometimes in the good old days before the pandemic, when there would be a table of eight of us sitting there at some sponsorship table, everybody would go around the table, say their name, say who they worked for, what they did. And then sort of everybody would bow their heads and start to play with their food. Unless of course you brought your spouse or your girlfriend or your buddy, and then you automatically turn to each other and sort of used your crutch. They were your conversation crux to talk to. I mean, how do you get through those moments? I researched listening skills, body language. I even researched exit lines, Jenn, so that you never again, in order to get away from me, do one of these numbers. Debra gotta go, gotta call the babysitter. And five minutes later, I find out from a colleague that you don’t have kids. I mean, there are ways to get away from people without lying to them, but ways to get away from people. So they can’t hold us hostage for one more moment. So, you know, I really, I just thought, how are people doing it? I did the research. I created a program. And I learned something really important. I used to think it was just me that struggled. And I was just thinking I was dorky people. So I’m, I’m truthfully a dork. You know, I’ve obviously put on red today. I put on lipstick. I’m trying not to look dorky, but I am a dork, but I learned that other people besides engineers, so dorky, do you know that CPAs can be dorky? Lawyers can be dorky, fourth grade teachers can be great at being teachers, but then they have to talk to parents at back to school night and it becomes awkward. I learned that it’s all kinds of professions. What’s it like, you know, when we go back to get our hair styled and we sit in the chair of someone who may be a marvelous hairstylist, but they’re awkward with the chitchat. It feels uncomfortable. We don’t want to go back, even though they did a great job. I mean, unless we can, you know, I have learned to say, how about I’m just exhausted. I’m out of saliva. How about there’s no talking, unless you can go in that route. If it’s awkward, you don’t want to go back there. The same as a ski instructor up in Vail. So that’s my background. I created a business where I was a keynote speaker, which I still am today, and a trainer. Some of my clients include Google and Amazon and Lockheed Martin and NASA and Duke Power and even Van Cleef & Arpels. Now I don’t have their jewelry because I still can’t afford it, but they’ve trained all their salespeople in The Fine Art of Small Talk. So but so have they done it Lockheed Martin at Cisco systems, if you would like to be a director level or above at Cisco, you need to take The Fine Art of Small Talk because even if you’re an introvert, you have to behave like an extrovert in order to meet their expectations of what leadership looks like. That may not be your expectation. Those of you who are viewing this today, but it is Cisco’s, and it is at Google as well. And that’s why they’ve used me. So I also, as you mentioned, Jenn, thank you very much have written books and The Fine Art of Small Talk is published and translated in two dozen countries. A few more actually, and has been on the bestseller list for many, many years. I won’t tell you because then you’ll guess my age, Why is Small Talk Important? Jenn DeWall: Can I say, well, first and foremost, congratulations on that level of professional accomplishment. That is, yeah. That’s a big deal. And to know that yes, there is a place for small talk. And I think you hit it when we opened this, recognizing that initially, people look at small talk as this begrudging tasks that we have to do that takes us away from our other bigger responsibilities. It’s almost annoying. I mean that for probably someone like me, that’s more- I do have more of that expressive or extroverted personality, but I know that some people might see me coming on a Monday morning and they’re like, how do I get away from Jenn? Right. Like I know I absolutely get that. But the thing that I also want to call out too, is that you came from what I would say, a stereotypical engineer or a stereotypical industry where people just assume, well, they’re an engineer. They don’t, they don’t really talk. They don’t like talking. My husband’s an engineer. He’ll even tell you that. Like I love going to and like networking events with him because it is funny. I know that I can at least, hopefully, if anything, just make them laugh because they’re like, who is this bananas person? But you know, it’s an industry that often gets pegged of individuals that don’t do that. And maybe part of the reason that they don’t just because there is a label there or because we just don’t know how, and that’s what I’m hoping to be able to just really walk through today. What, like, so why is small talk so important? Debra Fine: It’s the appetizer for any relationship, Jenn? I mean, you mentioned that you’re married. I have no idea how you met, but you met one of two ways. Here’s my guess. You either met randomly and via small talk. It developed into a romantic relationship. So that’s the appetizers, the small talk. Then it developed into a relationship or it’s possible someone fixed you up used an internet site. Okay. So that’s where you meet somebody and then you have to revert to small talk in order to build the relationship. So the same holds for business. By the way, we can have a negotiation with someone. We can sell a widget to someone. We can provide a service to someone, but unless we integrate small talk into that, that appetizer, we won’t develop a business friendship with them. And all things being equal. People do business with their friends. The same thing goes for social. I can meet you randomly, right? And if small talk ensues, it builds into a friendship, but it starts with small talk. And so that’s why I think it’s important. It now, you know, you made a wonderful reference to yourself. You know, Monday morning here comes Jenn DeWall, and people like me are thinking, Oh my gosh, first of all, I have a list of everything I have to do. Secondly, oh no, I don’t have time for 15 minutes of small talk. Okay. But here’s the other thing about that’s up to me to exit her conversation, her small talk, but the thing about Jenn DeWall that you can, you, you just feel it, even over this virtual thing that we’re doing, you feel warm, you feel charisma, you feel, and that’s what we all need to be able to project in our own authentic way. I am behaving like an extrovert right now, Jenn. And I’ll tell you why. It’s not, because I think you always need to behave like an extrovert. I’m behaving like one to model you. If you are more like this, and this is an important piece of small talk, by the way, if you were more measured if you didn’t laugh so much, if you were more serious. If you talked a little slower, I would talk slower. I would be more measured. I would be more serious. So the thing that you do is you bring so much energy to a situation and people like you are likable. Now. I don’t know that that’s fair by the way, Jenn, I used to think if you got straight A’s that you should be the most successful person because of course, I got straight A’s. I was a very conscientious student, but I have learned, and I think most of your leadership audience knows this, that that’s not enough. You have to be able to make people feel comfortable around you, be likable to the degree that you’re genuine but likable, nonetheless, it doesn’t mean we can all be like Jenn DeWall. I mean, we’re just not, and that’s okay. But to answer your question, I think small talk is important because it is the appetizer and, there are appropriate times and places for it also. And that’s like, that’s a key ingredient. If, if we have if we’re here to discuss let’s say my prognosis and or my billable hour for my divorce, small talk can be a picture frame around that business conversation for about one minute. And I’ll give you some ideas of what to say during that situation. And then we need to get to the business at hand because of time constraints, cost constraints, whatever it may be. So I’m not suggesting that people should small talk all the time. I’m suggesting that you need to be skilled at it. It’s a part, it’s an ingredient to success. That’s all I’m saying. Can You Really Learn to Get Better at Small Talk? Jenn DeWall: Yeah. It’s something that we need in the way that we live our lives, whether it’s at work or whether that’s, you know, a social event, you know, with our children or our spouses or friends. And I think the small talk piece too, is the more, I guess what I would imagine because people might assume that I just love networking events and they’re like, Oh, Jenn can talk to anyone. She probably just loves that. And that’s actually not true. Like, there are some situations where I absolutely become very anxious or overwhelmed or just nervous or don’t know what to say, but we do need to be able to understand maybe a framework. So then we can have competence in those situations. So that leads to the next question. Can conversational skills really be learned? I mean, I probably shot out of the womb talking to the nurse that delivered me. I’m not even sure, but can it be learned for other people? I know, I know no other way, but I believe that it can. Can it be learned? Debra Fine: It’s a fact, I, I not only did it for myself for personal reasons, it then took me to a business where identified what people are doing. I mean, I did because of certain things that happen in my life, determined that my life sort of stunk because I didn’t have friends. And I mean, girlfriends, I didn’t have girlfriends in high school or college. I don’t have a college friend to this day that I stay in touch with on Facebook. I have a lot of friends now, they’re adult friends that I’ve made since I learned the skills that I needed to learn. And I know they’re learnable because I teach them all the time and I see the results of them in the tool. So and there’s another factor, of course, Jenn, besides learning tools and that is employing them because as anybody knows who’s ever been on a diet or an exercise regime if you don’t stick to it, it’s not going to work. So if you don’t practice it, you know, this isn’t rocket science, small talk. I hope I have tools that you will really appreciate even your extroverted self, Jenn, but it does. There are no good unless you use them. They are no good if you’re like, what I used to be, which is I would get an invitation to a party. I’d get all excited. I got invited, you know, Oh my gosh, you know, somebody likes me. I have a friend, how nice I’d get all dressed up. I do the whole thing. And then I wouldn’t go. I wouldn’t go. By the way. I think that happens in networking all the time. I think, I think a lot of people get too busy to go, which is interesting to me because you know, you block out, you gotta go. The other thing that interests me about networking is that you go to networking events- and I hope we’re back there real soon. And you’ll notice how many people come in late. And I think that’s just a way to avoid, you know, you want to come into a room that’s filled so that you don’t stand out as the only person there that doesn’t know anybody. I did all that. So I know that to be true. Jenn DeWall: How did you go from, you know, starting a career where one of the perks was that you didn’t really have to interact with people? How did you go from that to then being like, you know what? I can learn this and I want to help other people do this. How did you make that pivot? Because I mean, you said you were one of those people that maybe wouldn’t, you know, you get all dressed up for the event and then not go, like, how were you able to make that switch for you? Debra Fine: Drive. I wanted it so bad. I just seriously, I wanted girlfriends. I w it wasn’t even that I had this epiphany that this would be so much better for my career if I had some communication skills. Like, I wish I could tell you that that was it, but that wasn’t it at all. It was, I just longed to be a part of a community or communities. And so I, I really, at that point, didn’t, I wasn’t thinking of a business. I w I was just thinking of what can I do right now to emulate what that woman over there is doing? What is she doing? That, that she has a bunch of women sitting around her and they’re talking to each other, what is she, how is she starting the conversation? And then I brought so much joy into my life. And there were so many rewards in doing that, that I did have, an epiphany light bulb moment where I thought, well, maybe I could teach this to others. Now there’s more to that story, but I don’t want to bore you with that. But I mean, I was inspired. I really was inspired. The short version is by looking at a catalog here in Denver, Colorado, that still exists. It’s mostly online now, although it may still be in paper and it’s for the Colorado Free University, and what that is, is the lifelong learning endeavor. And that they’re all over the United States. So I think it’s called learning acts or what learning you back in New York City and discover you in Seattle and they’re all over. And so I was just waiting to pick up one of my children, toddlers, and I was looking through this catalog. And at the very back, it said, looking for teachers, and they were looking for teachers and auto-mechanics and Italian cuisine and in small talk, I mean, those two words. I was just, I was flabbergasted. I took my breath away because I just thought everybody knew how to do it, but me, or, or I also thought those who didn’t know how to do it, like engineers, didn’t care. Like I was the weirdo that cared that I wanted to learn how to do it. And I thought why would anybody else want to learn this? And there, it was right in Colorado for university. And so I actually auditioned for that and I got it well, and now I, of course, I learned very quickly than anybody would have gotten it if they could speak English pretty well, but I got it. And I created a curriculum. And at that point in my life, I really needed money. I was desperate. I was I had two little kids and I was alone. And it evolved into this business that you see today. And one of the reasons it evolved into a business is I started becoming a good professional speaker because I was doing these lifelong learning classes. And first, there were six people. Then there were 20 people. Then there were literally 50 people in a class on small talk right here in Denver. It was, it was the most shocking thing I’ve ever seen in my life. And one night somebody said to me, Hey, can you shorten this three-hour training into one hour? I said, well, sure, of course. I mean, anything could be shortened. It’s lengthening things that are hard to do. And she said, Oh, because we’re looking for a speaker for the Colorado Municipal Clerks. I’m the current municipal clerk from Englewood. And I would like to recommend your program. If you can shorten down for an hour for our annual conference. I said, Oh my gosh, that’s great. She said, what’s your fee? And I said, I mean, I didn’t even understand that there were fees. I thought, if you were a celebrity, you’ve got fees, but I didn’t know, ordinary people could get a fee. And I said to her, what’s your budget. And that was how it started. So that’s when I learned that other municipal clerks want to learn small talk. I mean, think about that. Now, as we’ve gone through this election, municipal clerks are the ones who ensure that your vote is not only sacred but counted and submitted and all those things. So they have a very technical job and yet they wanted to learn small talk. They wanted to learn it to interact with one another. This is 27 years ago, by the way, this story comes from -. But they wanted to have better collaboration with their colleagues they wanted when they were out front with and interacting with the citizenry that they wanted to have better skills there. I mean, it’s, it’s really amazing who benefits from small towns? Good Small Talk is About Connecting with People Jenn DeWall: I mean, I think one of the things, I’m not sure if you even noticed and I’m sure some of our listeners are used to this, but I started to tear up when you were talking about, you know, your initial transition of just wanting to connect, wanting to feel like you could connect with other people. And I think, you know, to go back to why this matters, is that we are, and we likely heard this in many different ways, but that we are very social individuals that do want to be seen. And as much as you might be a leader that is looking at Jenn DeWall coming down the hallway, that connection does give us a sense of happiness or purpose or belonging that is essential. And so hopefully we can start with a shift with some of the people listening that it’s not, you know, you’re not necessarily just doing this to get ahead. There actually is a big internal benefit to mastering small talk. It’s not just for those external goals or things like that. I’m not sure how you would respond to that because I do feel like that is so- small talk allows you to start to connect with people. And that’s such a beautiful thing that we all need. Debra Fine: It fosters friendship, it cultivates connections. And, and you know, what networking, the bad thing about networking is that people often start networking when they need something. But if you’re always cultivating connections and always fostering a friendship, business friendships, as well as friendships, then someday, Jenn, if you say to me, Deb, do you know somebody that can help me with whatever? I bet I’ve built a community where I can help you. I, because it takes years to build a kind of networking community where you can help others, whether they’re looking for an opportunity or for a babysitter. And I mean, I’m very proud to say that I’ve started that 27 years ago building that community. And now it’s amazing. I mean, I connected somebody that adopted their- they were in South Korea just now during the pandemic, adopting a child and going through all that and I connected with an author friend here in Denver who had adopted, I didn’t know her then and adopted a child from South Korea as well. That child is now I think 13 or 14. And I just put them together. They didn’t even ask. They just, I said, you should know each other. And now they’re friends. I mean, that’s what real networking is. I fix people up. They’re married. I mean, because I thought, Oh, I know somebody your age. I know somebody that lives here too, but the same with business. So I think that you have to have a head-on that says, I want to connect with people. And you know, when I don’t want to connect with people, Jenn, you know, I’m in two book clubs. The reason is that I read books all the time. I would prefer to stay home and read a book than just about anything. And because I, I am an introvert. That’s who I really am, but I do know that you have to build a community to bring satisfaction to your life. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Well, we’re going to get into some prescriptive stuff, but before we get into that, I just want to ask the question. So why, why it’s either, it’s like, why do we dread going into networking events? Or why do conversations just so quickly fall flat? Like you get into your circle, you may be, hi, my name is Jenn DeWall and I work for Crestcom and I do this, and then it’s the next person. And then everyone’s like, so what kind of food do they serve here? I don’t know what to do. And then slowly someone’s like, I gotta go to the bathroom or, you know when people leave that conversation or they might just stand there awkwardly, Debra Fine: Right. Or be a clinger, they just cling. Well, let me, that’s two questions there. One is why do people not like the networking component? I think a lot of it is because it’s overwhelming to walk into a room of people we don’t know. And so if I can offer some suggestions for that, and then we can move to the other part of the question and that is- Jenn DeWall: Yeah- how can we- how can we be more comfortable? Think of Small Talk as a Task to be Completed Debra Fine: Right. Especially leaders. I think it’s really important because you’ll understand- any leader understands this. Most leaders are successful. They’re successful academically, they’re successful professionally. And that is because they’re great at tasks, they get tasks done. I don’t care whether they’re a doctor over there, their project manager or they are construction, you get tasks done. You do them well. So, turn networking into a task. So that’s what I’ve done. Here’s my task. I walked into an event and I tell myself, you’ll meet two new people or four new people. I get to decide. I get to determine the task. So that’s good. That gives me a lot of control, which I like because most people don’t like small talk for one main reason, Jenn. It’s because we have no control. You have control of this interview right now. You have complete control. You’re going to decide when it ends. You decided when it started, you have complete control. And in a way, I do too, because you’re the leader. I don’t have to think about it. You’ve got control. But if we go out for a cup of coffee and we don’t know each other at all, and we’re met or we meet up for whatever the occasion may be, nobody has control. We might not hit it off. There might not be anything to talk about. We all hate situations, but we have no control. Fourth-grade teachers have control. Lawyers have control. We do not have control when we go out on a date or when we go for a job interview when we have a meeting and everybody’s mingling around getting coffee, there’s no control. And that’s why I think most people hate it. So bring control into your life and networking by- I tell myself, let’s meet three new people, okay. Guess what happens? Whether it goes well or not well, and I’m happy to offer some great icebreakers and some ways to keep conversations going, whether it goes well or not. Well after I’ve met those three and started launch conversations with three new people. Because that was my task. Guess what I get to do? I get to leave early. Jenn DeWall: You’ve accomplished your task! Start With the Free Information – Location and Occasion Debra Fine: I get to go sit out in the hotel lobby, hang out and wait until it’s time to sit down for dinner. I mean, there’s a lot of rewards involved if that’s what works for you, but it is very overwhelming to walk into a room of people you don’t know and expect it to go well unless you’ve turned it into a task. And it also allows you or, or actually encourages you to meet new people because we tend to – So we see the Jenn DeWalls in the room. I walk in, I see somebody, I know it happens to be somebody that’s very warm and outgoing and she gives me eye contact the minute I walk in. So wouldn’t, I want to walk up to her. Well, I want to, but I, this is what real networking is. Real networking is I’ll get over to Jenn DeWall. I’m certainly not going to avoid her and not say hello to her. I’m going to actually make it a task to get over to everybody. I do know. I make sure I say hello. So they don’t think I’m a snob. Because people think you’re a snob when you don’t come over to say hello to them. Even if you’re shy or introverted, they do not give you the benefit of the doubt. But I’m purposely here to meet new people. That’s why I came to a networking event. I already know Jenn DeWall. I know a lot about, or actually how about I take a risk and walk up to somebody new as I promised myself. So that’s, that’s a real key to making the most of these networking opportunities. And there’s, there are some really great ways to conversations, but by the way, I can’t make somebody talk to me. So I’m going to give you some opening lines that work great. But I’m going to tell you something. If I don’t want to talk to you and you walk up to me, I don’t care if you’re Jenn DeWall, with your smile and your, you know, this energy. If I don’t want to talk to you, cause some big shot walked in the room, let’s say I’m one of those horrible networking people that, you know, decide, well, you can’t help me, Jenn DeWall. Or I see on your name tag, that you’re in leadership development, but I’m sorry, Jenn. I sell software to attorneys and unless I see a law firm name or the word attorney on your name tag, I’m going to blow you off. Don’t you hate people like that? Whether they’re real, you can’t get them to talk to you if they don’t want to talk to you. Some people are there strictly for transactional reasons. Let them do whatever they want to do. You can’t get people to talk to you unless they’re willing to talk to you. So you turn it into a task, you walk into a room. So whether if it’s a charity, I’ll walk up to you. And what got you involved in this charity. If it’s a conference, I’ll ask you if you’ve ever been to this conference before or what have you, what did you think about the keynote speaker this morning? Well, how I label that Jenn is free information. I will use free information about the occasion or location. Have you ever been to Orlando before? What do you think of this conference? So that’s location and occasion. We’re in Orlando and the occasion is this conference to start a conversation with you? How do you know the host or hostess? That is the occasion. What brought you to Denver? That’s location. Have you ever run a 5k before? If I’m standing at the starting line of a 5k, you have, Oh, well, you know, what’s your, what’s your secret ingredient to success? I started a conversation. Who do you know that sits on the finance committee, so, okay. So that’s free information about occasion and locations, the best way I know to start a conversation with somebody. And if somebody says to me, moving to another tip. Want another tip? Jenn DeWall: Yeah! So starting with look at it as a task, like, Hey, the task or the goal is this. I love that. I just want to back up with that task because the one thing that I, I just, why I disliked networking events is I don’t like being networked on or sold to. And that is always the, I just feel uncomfortable. It doesn’t feel genuine. And so I like switching the task from, I need to go there to, you know, show this about myself so I’m going to go and meet two people. And that’s all it is. It’s not about trying to come home with the sale, even though yes, we want that. Because people can sense that. Like, I sense that, and then it just feels weird. And yeah, I can tell you if I’m going to benefit from your goal or not, and that also feels uncomfortable. So then that makes me less likely to even want to engage with you, even if I could know someone. So starting with the task, I love that. And then just thinking about, okay, well now what’s my goal. Okay. And then what is my opening? So you said the location and-? Debra Fine: The location or occasion. Now let’s go to another tip. I love that. Well, and remember there’s other networking can, as a leader can be, when you walk into the meeting, whether you’re hosting a meeting or somebody else’s, and hopefully you walk in a few minutes early, and that goes for networking events. Get there on time for networking events, because people clique up after 10 minutes or 15 minutes, whatever. So if you get there late, because you’re avoiding this, it’s not helping you at all. It’s easier to find somebody that’s approachable if you get there on time. An approachable person that’s standing by themselves. If you give it about 15 minutes, the Jenn DeWalls in the world, have people circling around. That’s much harder to break into those groups. So you want to get there when there are other people like yourself standing by themselves, you walk up to one of those people, typically they will think you are the new Messiah. Can you imagine Jenn, somebody walked up to you and just said, hi, I’ve never met you. What brought you to the association of industry, whatever engineers, industrial engineers, what? You know, what’s your connection to this group. Thank you for saving my life. You really walked up to me and asked me why I was at this industrial engineers event. Thank you. Because it’s not dinner time, I don’t even want to go get a drink. Right? I don’t even want a drink. I just it’s. You saved my life. So, okay. So that, that’s a really important thing for us to take the risk, to walk up to somebody new, but the same goes, especially for leaders, you walk into a meeting, you walk in two to three minutes early, if not earlier, and you walk, when you go get your coffee, you walk up to somebody and say, you know, I think we met what six months ago, but we’ve never talked. So catch me up. What’s new. What kind of projects are you working on lately? Or bring me up to date. And that’s a tip we’re going to get to in a second about exactly the words to use, but bringing me up to date on, on what you guys have been working on, or bring me up to date on your license. The last time I talked to you, but you can’t hope they’ll walk up to you or sit next to you at the conference table. Leaders say hello to everybody in the room. They walk around, they catch up and then they sit down. They don’t sit on our little crack-berries. They don’t look busy. This is the time to connect with fellow department heads. Stakeholders in the organization were ever hosted in a meeting to walk up and say, you know, what I really appreciate about you is that you always start meetings on time. I look forward to your meetings because of that. I mean, anything. You know, what I used to do when I was an engineer, Jenn? This is what I did. And it was, those were good times because there were no other women in engineering. There’s not enough now, but there were very few. So I had the ladies’ room all to myself, head until the meetings started because I didn’t have anything to say. So I just didn’t walk in. So, leaders, I don’t care if you’re introverted or not. It really is up to you to take the risks, to walk up to people say, hello. If you have a chance of walking down the hall and somebody walking down the hall, this is the same idea. Turn that into a task as well. What I recommend to leaders is that they look at their calendar for the week, and now it’s virtual, but that’s okay. And say, well, three times this week for 10 minutes, I’m going to walk into the cafeteria and start conversations with people or sit with people I don’t know very well for lunch or via zoom. I’m going to set up lunch. I’ve been doing this down in my own little life, reaching out to people that are my business friends, but I haven’t seen them. There has not been a reason to see them and say, let’s catch up. And most people are glad to do it. I say, let’s catch up for 15 minutes because that whole Jenn DeWall thing, it’s going to be an hour. Nobody has an hour. So, okay. So let’s talk about ways to launch conversations. I gave you the free information tip. Let me give you some other ideas. I alluded to it. Jenn DeWall: So, like so free information is anything that brought you there. Like that’s all the information that’s available for you that you can just look around and say, okay, well, perfect. I love that. I love simplifying it that way, like what is the free information that you can start a conversation? Alright, I’m ready for the openings. I’m ready. Have Better Opening Questions Debra Fine: It’s about the occasion. If I get invited to your birthday party it’s so I’ll say, how do you, how are you friends with Jenn? If you’re at the same birthday, how do you know Jenn? That’s the free information I have. So either they crashed your birthday party or they know you. So the same thing is, like I said, is that a bar association event, you know, what’s your connection to this event. And by the way, that’s a perfect lead-in when you go to an event for business with spouses or partners are allowed to come. You better watch out, Oh, are you a lawyer? What kind of question is that? Here’s a much better one. What’s your connection to this event? Oh, I’m the spouse of an attorney. I’m the spouse of a vendor. I’m a partner, you know, don’t block yourself in with a question like are you an attorney? Debra Fine: Okay. So let me give you- Let me jump because you gave a good example of what goes on at, or in organizations that networking events. Say, hi, I’m Jenn DeWall, I do this. Or what do you do, Jenn? Don’t. You know, we’re going to get there. I mean, we, even, if this is transactional, we will get there. When we get there, I do not need to ask you what you do. This is what I’m going to ask. I have free information. We’re at a business conference. We’re at training. We’re at a meeting. I sit next to you and this is what I’m going to say to you. What keeps you busy outside of work? Jenn, this is my favorite way to get to know somebody. Because here’s the goal. Small talk. What it really is, is like I said, cultivating connections. It may be on your name tag, what you do. We work together in the same building for goodness sake. So maybe you work here. So I don’t need to know that right now. Maybe when we make the introductions, I’ll find out or I’ll find out ultimately what keeps you busy outside of work. That is my favorite way to get to know somebody. So let’s find out about Jenn DeWall. I mean, I feel like I learned a lot about you. Jenn DeWall: What keeps me busy outside of work? As of today and lately we, a lot of painting around the house, not what I would always be doing. But right now, a lot of painting because we just bought a house. And so we want it to be, you know, just set up a different way and yeah, so just doing a lot of painting, okay. Debra Fine: Now, most people aren’t as good as Jenn, as Jenn at answering your question, especially shy or introverted people. Most people would have answered the question with what, at least in her case, what keeps you busy outside of work? It would have said a lot of painting. And actually, she paused then. And what I, what I don’t know is because this is not real. This is not authentic. So did she pause because she knew it wasn’t real. Did you pause because she needed to think. Most people would have said there’s a lot of painting going on. And that’s when I probably would’ve said what kind of painting. So but Jenn gave me a, quite a nice answer. So it gave us a lot to work with. We now know she has a new house. You know, how did she decide on the colors? Jenn DeWall: Who’s doing the painting when she says we, who is we? You know, I don’t ask people. This is the real conversation killer. That’s an important ingredient. Small talk to what not to talk about. I don’t say to people now I know you are married because you told me more than once. But if I didn’t know that about if I didn’t know your personal life, when you said we, number one, I would have said, who’s we? So then you tell me I have a husband, or I have a buddy, or my girlfriend’s helping me. But when I meet people, I never say, are you married? I never say, do you have any kids? What kind of questions are these? The answer, if it’s no, where are we headed down? Where are we going with this conversation? Which is why I say to people either, what keeps you busy outside of work? Or what do you for fun? Because then they’ll tell me what they want me to know. If they want me to know they have kids, they’ll tell me. If they want me to know that they’re going back to school to get an MBA. They’ll tell me that. It’s not a personal question. It is an open question. And let me just take it another step, Jenn, and I know you didn’t ask, but when I meet somebody that, that they’re not identified in a professional setting, I’m not at work. I’m not in a business networking event. I’m at a party. What I’ll say to them is something like that. What keeps you busy outside of going to wonderful parties? I don’t ask them, what do you do? Because I hate that question. It’s mundane. It’s the same old, same old. It will get there. If we’re supposed to get there, I asked what keeps you busy outside of this fabulous party. I happen to be a Rotarian. So I’m, I’ve been in Rotary for 27 years as well. And I’ll go to a Rotary meeting or my Rotary meeting, and I’ll say, what keeps you busy outside of Rotary? They’ll talk about work. They’ll talk about family. They’ll talk about jogging. They’ll talk about skiing. You have complete permission to talk about whatever want. That’s why I love the question. What keeps you busy outside of___? Debra Fine: So if you’re at a back to school night, those of you listening that have kids, what keeps you busy outside of your kids? Now, she might say, well, I stay at home with my kids, but I like to, I like to do yoga. That’s how you find out what keeps you busy outside of your kids. They’ll talk to you about work. They’ll talk about yoga. It’s just a way to get to know people without those limiting questions that feel like an FBI agent. What do you do? Are you married? Where are you from? Geez back off. Jenn DeWall: I wonder, you know, that made me think because I love your opening question. Like what keeps you busy outside of this? One of mine- because I wonder- here’s the other end of the spectrum, right? I think that I might be a very overwhelming communicator because one of my favorite questions is if it’s uncomfortable, I’m like, well, let’s just throw a random question out there to keep people on their toes. And so the question that I love to always ask is what was your favorite activity to do in high school? That’s something that can be like 20 years removed, 30 years removed. And I always think that’s funny and just like a way to get people out of their heads. Oh my gosh. But sometimes I think that that almost is too much of a question when you’re first meeting someone. So I’m curious, I know you talked about questions, you know, the closed-ended questions. Like, do you have kids? Yeah. If someone said that to me like I don’t. So that then where does the conversation go? Or are you weird? But I’m curious. Are there any other questions that you would say, you know, you want to soften that approach because maybe my approach of asking people is a little bit too much. Debra Fine: Yeah, I mean, if we were at a party and drinking and you asked me that I’d be okay, Jenn DeWall: But in a networking event, I’m sure that would be a little weird. Debra Fine: So, I mean, in a way I have a great sense of humor in a way, and because of the way you deliver it, I would probably go, wow. But I think like, would you, I’m going to say something, maybe that’s not politically correct, but I cannot imagine me saying that to some male executive. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. And that’s just it, right? Like, are there questions and you’re right, know your audience? Debra Fine: Now if I’m at Rotary and I see these people regularly, then I would say, then I think that’s a wonderful thing to say to people, but I don’t, we’re talking mostly about people we don’t know very well. Jenn DeWall: So that’s fair. That’s actually something that I’m learning and taking away. It’s like, you know what, John, you might think that these questions are more fun and they’re going to loosen people up, but are they actually appropriate given the occasion? And sometimes we want to pull back or we can wait until that conversation is a little bit warmer. I want to go into one of the things because you said that to become that we become better conversationalists when we employ two primary objectives, the first is to take the risk. What do you mean by that? Take the Risk – Walk up to Someone New Debra Fine: Walk up to somebody new. Most of us, even extroverts, most extroverts don’t do it. You know why? Because people cluster around them. They all know. They don’t even need to walk up to strangers. They, they’re more likely to be willing to, but they, they usually don’t need to. So they’re off the hook, typically. It is a risk to walk up to someone new because you might reject them, Jenn, you might. But I know it’s risky to take the highway in a car. It’s a fact. So just to remind you when you’re feeling like I don’t want to walk up to somebody new. If they walked up to me at church after services or synagogue after services, I would welcome them. If they came up to me and say, I’ve never met you before, are you a member of the congregation or are you new in town or you’re just visiting. Wow, wouldn’t it be great if congregations did that, but they don’t, you know what they say from the pulpit? I don’t care what religion you are. Look for somebody. That’s an ambassador or a part of our membership committee does have special name tags on, walk up to them, introduce yourself. Well, that’s fascinating. So you’re asking me this shy person, who’s new in town to walk up to somebody with a nametag on. Some people might have the courage to do that. I say, and this is my mantra for myself. I go to my Rotary. I’ve been there for 27 years. I’m a past president. There are 120 members in my club. When I walk in the room, the energy comes to me just like you, Jenn, because I behave like an extrovert. I’m very well-known yada, yada. But guess what I do? I look around, I’m scanning the room. As I walk in, I’m thinking who’s here alone? Who’s here alone that I’ve never met? That I’ve never met or somebody that joined like six months ago, but I’ve never had a real conversation with them. And I make a beeline and people will be saying, hi, Margo, hi, I’ll catch up with you in a few minutes. Or let me come back around. I just really need to get over here. And I get over there and I walk up and I say, welcome to Rotary. I’m Debra Fine. What brings you here today? Now, if I know that they’re a member they’ve been, but they’re a new member. I’ll walk up and say, no, I’ve never had a chance to talk to you. Welcome to Rotary. How’d you find out about Rotary? That’s the free information. Remember we’re all at Rotary. That’s the way I’m using that. But the point is I’m taking the risk of walking up to somebody new. And part of it is it’s not hard for me to do anymore. I mean, I don’t, I’m not worried about you rejecting me. I’m too old to care about stuff like that now. But I’m doing it because somebody’s got to do it and it’s going to be me as I’m not going to count on somebody else to do it. But for most people, they just avoid doing it because it is that risk. And I think if you’re a leader, you need to be willing to take that risk. It’s not a huge risk. It’s much, as I said, more dangerous to drive a car on a highway, North or South or East or West. Jenn DeWall: I like that because it gives you permission, right? If you’re just going to make the choice that of saying, I’m going to take a risk, I’m just going to go out there and talk to someone. I know if my husband listening to this right now, he would say, Oh, are you going to throw some people life rafts? Because I absolutely will look around and be like, who looks like they’re really uncomfortable? No way. When we were in Italy, we were sitting down at a cafe and there’s just a guy sitting next to us. And then I make up these stories, right? Like, oh, they’re all by themselves. Like they probably, I can tell that they’re not from Italy either. Like maybe they want to meet someone new. And then we meet a lot of people that way. Sometimes it ends up being a little bit funnier circumstance. But yeah, that’s my husband jokingly says I throw people life rafts, but it’s because I, you know, it’s that, that sensitive piece, like I never want someone to not feel seen. And so it’s that, but I know that it’s hard, because people, it is hard to get over the discomfort, right? My husband, that’s not going to be his first approach. He sees someone there. He’s like, well, they’re probably fine, but it is, you know, as us to be leaders, we do have to see the people that maybe aren’t invited to the table that don’t get included in some of those conversations too. We can show them that we care that we, you know, just like you ask them what brought you to Rotary. I love that. I’m just thinking, like take a stance, be that individual that takes the first risk. It gives you permission to do that. Introduce Yourself to Everyone – No Matter Their Job Title Debra Fine: And not just permission, but make it your mantra. Because you not only have permission but if you’re a leader, you should be making yourself do this on a regular basis. You should be the one taking the risk all the time of sitting next to somebody new at the conference table, or walking up to somebody new and saying hello and welcoming them. And if you’re an emerging leader, which I’m sure is a huge part of your audience, let me tell you something. When you don’t walk up to the decision-maker, the VP of finance, because she is your VP and she’s in from the home office, and she’ll get over to say hello to you if she wants to talk to you, you become invisible. If you don’t walk up to her and go, hi, I don’t know if you know, remember me, I’m my name is Debra Fine. You know, I’m, I’m a new hire basically, you know 2019, but just want to say hi, I hope you had a good trip. You don’t even have, don’t use a question. If you don’t want it, you don’t need to engage them. You need to make them aware that you exist in this world because that who’s, that is who’s getting the promotions. I used to think it was the straight A’s, but it’s not. You’re not on their radar. If you don’t even walk up and say hello, but most people don’t do it, Jenn, because they’re, it’s too risky. The VP of finance, she might reject me. She’s not going to reject you. If she wants to talk to you, then she’ll say Well, thanks for coming up to say hi, you know, tell me about some, the work that you’ve been doing lately. She’ll either say that and engage you. And you’re cool. Now you can visit or she’ll say, well, good, good to see you again. And then dismiss you. And, but at least you got on the radar, quiet people are seeing as arrogant and snobs. It’s not cool to be like that. Jenn DeWall: My husband called that sometimes People will assume that he is you know, a plethora of things just because he, he doesn’t talk or they’ll look at us and be like, Whoa. Yeah, we’re yin and yang. My husband is, if there are two Jenns in our household, I don’t even know what would happen, but talking about, because you hit on something. That actually was something that I really struggled with. As much as thinking that I can talk to people. When I was in my twenties, it was very difficult to talk to people that were of a higher like a senior level position for my first career. And that career, I was there for eight years, but I remember in my second promotion there, I that’s when we had to, like, they gave you an assignment here, take this report. And then you’re going to read this sales report to this executive. Even though in my head, I was like, they’ve already read this because it’s Monday morning, and they want to know the sales anyway. But there was one executive and she was really high up. And I just remember every time I talked to her, I was so afraid. Another executive asked me to do a special project for her and I will never forget this. And my boss was with me. And so I go in and I do this special project for her and I am sweating profusely because I am so uncomfortable. And then finally Laura was like, Jenn, like, what’s going on? I’m like, I don’t know. Like I’m just so nervous. Like she had asked that and then fast forward like it became a joke and she gave me an award in our division that was like, never let them see you sweat. Like Jenn, you just got to get over that. But thankfully that she was so warm and endearing to understand that I was so intimidated, but I love just the approach of like, you don’t have to go out there and have a brilliant idea. Like, just get on the radar. You can just say hi, introduce yourself. Say you’re happy to be here because that was really, really hard for me. Like I can even remember delivering something. And this was my third position there where I had my first presentation and I don’t think people had really heard me speak that very often. And so another very high-level senior executive chased me down into my cube to tell me that I did a good job. And I was like, thanks. And I just like went back because I still felt so uncomfortable. So anything to, you know, I’m an extrovert and I’m still uncomfortable with that, but now I’m not, you know, now it’s fine. But that was a really difficult thing as an emerging leader, to talk to someone that may be of a different organizational hierarchy than you. Right. Take Genuine Interest in Others – Even if You Are Shy Debra Fine: That’s key. You know, one time I before I did this, I had a girlfriend who worked for Memorex. If you remember that company, she’s very high up. And I, she, she was single. And so she would, I was single at the time and she would invite me to parties with her. And her boss was this very handsome man. And you know, I was introduced to him many times and I’d see him and he’d come over to say hi to Johnnie. And he’d say hi to me. And that was it. So I went into a whole new career. I was leaving, I was left engineering and I went into being a head Hunter for engineers. So I decided to call him. Bob was his name. Because I thought, well, I’d like to place engineers at Memorex. Hi Bob, this is Debra Fine. Johnnie Holt’s friend. And we’ve met. Do you know what he said to me? Oh, I said, I’m starting a new business. I mean, I didn’t own the business, but I’m now a recruiter for engineering. And I was hoping that we could talk about anyways I could be a resource for you. And I’m just hoping we could either come for coffee or we could just speak about it on the phone or whatever. This is what he said to me. Are you kidding me? You’ve never said hello to me at a party. You’re the biggest snob I know. Why would I do business with you? Oh, I broke down, I mean, luckily he couldn’t see me. I mean, he hung up the phone and he was absolutely right. This is long before I thought of this in business. Or actually long before I thought I could be anything but shy. I was, I had just, you know, a lot of people that are shy, they pat themselves on the back and go, well, I’m shy. That’s why I didn’t go over and say, hello. I never went over and said hello to him. If he came over and said, hello, I’d say hello. I never said, how are you? Which not that its the greatest opening line ever. I never said, how are you? Or bring me up to date on your life. Bob never, never showed an interest in him. Do you know why I was waiting for him to start the conversation, waiting for him to show an interest in me? Because that’s what shy people do. We wait for other people to get the conversation going. He just thought I was a snob. And I mean, that was one of the most important lessons I’ve ever learned in my life for business is that you can’t call me when you need something, but not show any interest in me and otherwise. Right? And if you don’t show any interest in me and we know each other, because I work for you or I’m your colleague, but you now you want collaboration. Well, we have to build trust and trust comes from being friendly and not a Jenn DeWall 15 minute conversation, a five-minute, three-minute conversation where you actually asked me who I am instead of what I do. Right. Assume the Burden of Small Talk Wherever You Are Jenn DeWall: See the person as a person. So you talked back again, it’s going back to the importance of why you need to just take the rest, like in that environment, who knows what the, how the outcome could have been impacted, but just taking the risk and saying, hi, the second thing that you say is to assume the burden. What does that mean? Debra Fine: You know, that of all things right now with virtual communication, that really lends itself at this time, more than ever. And what I mean by that is if you ever land in a breakout room where you’re not given a task. So when they give you a task and they say, okay, go around the table and say, what’s your number one challenge is for 2021. Okay. Well, that’s easy. Everybody goes around and says their challenge. Oh, but what if, what if you’re done? And there’s still five minutes left on the clock. There’s everybody’s taken their turn. Let’s say you landed in a small group. All the other groups that were five people, but you’re to three, you know how this stuff happens sometimes. Absolutely. Now there’s silence, right? The spot. There are three of us here in this little chat room. There’s complete silence. Do you know what I used to do? Well, I’d stay silent. I’m waiting for you. I mean, Jenn,  we’ve established this, you’re vivacious. You’ll get us talking about something. We’ve finished the task. What’s there to talk about now. There’s this is the time for small talk folks. If there’s ever a better time for small talk, you can’t even tell me what it is. And here we are. And we’re sitting there. Assuming the burden is me assuming the burden. Not hoping Jenn DeWall because she’s vivacious or because my boss happens to be in my group, my boss will start a conversation. It’s up to me to assume the burden say to everybody. So what was the highlight of your holidays? I’m assuming the burden of coming up with something to talk about, to get us through this five minutes where we don’t have a task at hand anymore. The same thing goes when you’re in face-to-face situations where you’re sitting at that table of eight, and everybody’s now playing with their food. I will look across the table because I will have everyone’s name memorized. That’s a whole other thing. I love everyone’s name memorized, or I will have done a cheat sheet in front of me one way, one way, or the other. I will know your name, or if your name texts big enough, then I’m lucky there, I’ll look across the table. And I’ll say to you Luanne, you know, tell us about you. I haven’t had a chance to meet me. What brought you to this table for United way? I’m assuming the burden from the whole table, getting everybody to join in the conversation. Now I could turn to the person on my right or my left. This is when there’s that awkward moment when people are playing with their food, I assume the burden of starting the conversation. Sometimes I’ll just look, especially now. I might, I do it in zoom calls. So what’s been your silver lining during this pandemic. So, because I attend my Rotary meetings, we’re, we’re put into breakout rooms of six people. So everybody, you never know who you’re going to be with. People say, Oh, hi, Ohio high. And then there’s this silence. It happens every time there’s complete silence. I assume the burden every single time. Nobody else seems to. And I’ll say, so what’s your silver lining or somebody, you know, a Joe, you know, tell us what’s new in your life because we’re in Rotary. So I mean, we know each other so I can get away with something like that. But if nobody assumes the burden, there’s this awkward moment to continue. It’s all about you, you’re a leader and you’re walking down the hall. It’s with a candidate for a job. It’s with a stakeholder that works for you. But you’re getting to a conference room to meet up with another department head, right? And you’re walking down this long, long hall. Hi. Hi, how’s it going? Good. How about you? Good. And now there’s still an awkward moment, walking down this hall. Who’s going to assume the burden of making us feel comfortable. Guess what I’m going to, whether I’m the leader or the stakeholder. We must assume the burden of making people feel comfortable. You know, who gets hired for a job. I’ll tell you what. There are two candidates, both have the same academic credentials, both have the same professional ability. It’s the person that walked down the hall and I didn’t feel like an awkward dork with. That’s who I pick because you don’t even think about it. You just think, Oh, I felt comfortable with her. She, he was easy to be with. That’s what you pick every single time. So if you don’t assume the burden, when you’re walking down the hall of making people feel comfortable, guess what? Always Be Prepared for Small Talk Debra Fine: Do you know how you can assume the burden? Always be prepared. I never walk into a zoom meeting, a networking event, a one-to-one without two to three things to talk about. The worst time to think of something to talk about is when there’s nothing to talk about. So I’m prepared. If I know something about you, okay? I know you bought a new house. I know you’re painting the house. Next time I talk to you if I am in search of things to talk about I’ll be prepared. It’ll be in my notes. If not, if I don’t, if I’m just going to sit down at a table for an interview or be at a networking event, I have two to three things to talk about. It may be current events. It may be things related to the association that we’re attending. And maybe about the speaker there that night, I’ve done my homework in advance. Remembering Names Jenn DeWall: I love it. It goes back to even what you had opened with like why we dislike networking events is because we don’t have that control. We- and this is what it sounds like to me. When you think about taking back control, take the risk, assume the burden. Those are two ways. If you think that you don’t have control, those are two ways that you can actually take control in those situations. I’ve loved our conversation. I there are so many other things you had mentioned. One thing I want to, I want to see this one, because I know that names are the thing that probably really just gets people they’re like, I don’t know. I forgot your neighbor. I’m so awful with names. Can you offer any advice on remembering names? Debra Fine: Well, my best advice is most people will tell you to repeat their name. So her name is Jenn. Her name is Jenn. Right? And, and we do repeat them. It’s nice to meet you, Jenn. Nice to meet you, Joe. Nice to meet you, Marianne. You know, we do that, right? Like we’re like our heads are like this. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Like one of those dogs in the back of somebody’s car, those fake dogs. Okay. So here’s the deal. We’re repeating the name because we’re on automatic pilot, but we’re not thinking about their name. So the best trick I know. I mean, there’s, there are books written about it, but the best trick I know is number one, and I don’t know if we’re going to be allowed to shake hands anymore, but I have no idea what’s going to happen next, but let’s say we’re at a table of eight. Number one, I get to the table. There are already four people at the table. I don’t sit down. I might put my stuff down. Then I go around the table because I can’t reach across- I’m a tall person and I cannot reach across the table to shake the hands. And especially now, if you can’t shake hands, I go around the table around to you. I get to you. I say hi. And I do an elbow. Do a Namaste, whatever we’re going to do now. Let’s say I’m Debra Fine. Good to meet you. And you say, I’m Joe Moran. I’m going to say, I’m going to give you that personal attention for one second. And when you say I’m going to say, Joe, it’s good to meet you. I’m not allowed to think about anything else. I’m not allowed to think about the business at hand. I’m not allowed to think about what I’m going to say next. Because that’s usually what I’m doing. I do not only do most of us do that, but I’m an engineer. So of course I’m like have to control everything. What am I going to say next? I’m not allowed to. I need to think his name is Joe. His name is Joe. And I do that with all those four people that are already there. Then I sit down. Okay. Then somebody comes to the table. I stand up. Hi. I don’t necessarily have to walk over to them. Hi, I’m Debra Fine. You’re Oh, now watch this, Jenn, this is host behavior and this makes you a leader extraordinaire. Oh, hi, Michael. Michael, let me introduce you to everybody else. That’s here. Oh, well for some I said, Michael, do you know everybody? No, no, no. I don’t know anybody. Well, Michael, this is Marianne she’s with Coldwell Banker and Anne, Anne Harris with Wells Fargo, and everything I learned or just their name. And I’ll be able to host behavior, introduce people to other people there. So how do I remember the names? Number one, I focus on their name and spend one whole moment being present and listening to their names. Number two, if you can scratch down our names like I said, number three, look at the roster in advance if you can. So you and I are both members of the national speakers association. Now we weren’t named texts. Let me go to the meetings. But you know, sometimes people wear their name tags down here. I’m not looking down there to see what your name is, you know, give it up, forget about it. I actually go through who signed up and I think- now my friends from the national speakers association, I know their names. Okay. So we don’t have to worry about it, I know you’ve done. I don’t have to be reminded of your name. Okay. But then there’s really a whole segment there that I’ve met that put like right there being faced with them. I would not remember their names. So I’m going through all the who signed up, who signed up. Okay. I’ve got their names in my head. So I’m much better prepared with their names. Lastly, if I don’t know your name, if I forgot your name, I assume the burden, in the past, I would just go all hi. Good to see you. Good to see you. And then we’d be talking for three or four minutes. We both know, we don’t know each other’s names. For some reason that was comfortable for me. I have no idea why. Now I assume the burden. I’m the one that’s going to suck it up. I’m going to be the hero and say, I feel like a jerk. You know, I’m really great with names usually, but I forgot your name. I know I’ve asked you three other times. Could you please remind me of your name? Whatever I have to say to get your name unless I can escape you or unless I can, you know, get somebody to be my right-hand man here and help me out. But I’m going to say, remind me of your name. Because if I don’t know your name, Jenn, I’ll guarantee you. This is what’s going to happen next. And leaders listen carefully because this is going to be what happens next. Somebody’s going to walk up to that group. Okay? You don’t know this other person’s name. You can’t remember it. You’re hoping for a religious experience to take place where the name just comes to you, that never happens. And up comes another colleague, how are you going to save your colleague? Oh Martin, let me introduce you to dada, she works in our it department. You can’t do that because you don’t know her name. Now I know what you’re hoping. You’re hoping Martin will go. Hi, I’m Martin, whatever. And that this person whose name you can’t remember will say their name. 50% of the time that might work. And 50% of the time those people were raised by, I don’t know who, where you say hi, I’m Debra Fine. And they go, hi, good to meet you. That’s all they give you. So you need to assume the burden as a leader. Let me tell you another little tip that I use because leaders are in a tough spot. Everybody knows your name, but you can’t remember everybody’s name. So be careful. And if I’m in a group setting where it’s possible, I’ve met you before. If I’m in Denver. Because I travel so much for my work. If I’m in Denver where I’ve lived for over 30 years now and where I have visibility, this is what I say to people. Oh, it’s good to see you. You know why? Because if I say, it’s good to meet you so many times they say we’ve met and they’re offended. So I say, if I think there’s even a chance that I could have ever met you before at a function once, I’ll say it’s good to see you. So that’s another trick up your sleeve. Jenn DeWall: I like that one. It’s good to see you. Because absolutely. I mean, it can be really challenging to remember someone’s name depending on how long it’s been. Debra Fine: Just admit it. Go, you know, it’s so important to me to know people’s names, but I just I’m overwhelmed. My Rolodex is full. Could you please remind me? Jenn DeWall: Well, and then the second you do that, then you’re not, you know, driving up that anxiety of like, I don’t remember their name and you’re actually then present in the conversation. Just assume the burden. You don’t have to make it any much of a bigger deal than what it is. It’s okay. It happens. Just assume the burden so you can, you know, Debra Fine: Right. And I’ll tell you something, Jenn like I’m married as well. And I happen to be married to a smart guy and he will tell you that he can’t remember people’s names. That’s so interesting. Like we just went through this whole fantasy football thing that ended for him yesterday. He has won trips to Europe. He has won trips to Vegas. He has won $50,000. Jenn DeWall: Wow. Debra Fine: Because he can remember every player in baseball, hockey, and football. That’s my husband. So he can remember all this, but he can’t remember. Your name was, that is fascinating. So you have a special disability where you just don’t remember names socially, but you remember everything about football and baseball and hockey, right? Is that correct? No. It’s because you don’t try, Steve, that’s the problem here. You’re not trying to remember people’s names. If you work since you’re a smart guy, you would remember them. So that really is the key to being a good person with names. When you try, you’ll much more likely to remember their name. If you don’t put the effort in to be present and to really focus on their name because you’re worried about the meeting, you’re not going to remember their name. What is Your Leadership Habit for Success? Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I loved our conversation. I feel like I want to have you back down the line so we can talk about conversation killers and conversational winners. Because I think that those are so important. Like how do I start? I mean, you gave us a great start of thinking about, have the task and then the free information, which I love. But you know, I want to ask you, you have clearly done a lot of research. You have written a lot of books. You’ve created a lot of success and the name of our podcast is The Leadership Habit. So out of curiosity, what is your leadership habit for success? Debra Fine: Well, I would have said- we spent so much time on assuming the burden- that my Leadership Habit was assuming the burden of making others feel comfortable when you’re in their presence. And that is because there’s this huge intangible where people decide if you’re a good leader based not just on your resume and your CV and all that. But they decide based on how they feel about you. And so if you make people feel comfortable around you, they’ll feel good about you. I mean, when you think about your husband, Jenn, and the same thing goes for leadership if you told me that your husband was a great golfer. And that he was really successful as an engineer, I would be surprised that that’s why you picked him instead of maybe someone else. But if you told me, well, Deb, he just makes me feel like the most special person in the world. Debra Fine: It’s not that he’s the most special because he’s such a great golfer and so successful. It’s that he makes me feel like the most special person in the world. Then I say, Oh, now I understand why I get that. And I think we all want that in our lives where people make us feel special, not in an authentic way. If I say, Oh, Jenn, I love your outfit. Okay. That’s a nice compliment because I, you know, your outfit is great. Let’s face it. It matches her lipstick She looks like, you know, the whole thing looks so perfect and the color that’s her color. We all know that now, anybody that’s been watching. But if I say, if I give her a real compliment, which is, you know, Jenn, that red really brings out your complexion. It just looks, I mean, it just makes you look so vibrant. That’s a real compliment. This is one that as leaders you can’t get away with because we’re not allowed to compliment someone’s appearance. But I’m just using that as an example. So we can tell when people are sincere with us and take the time and show an interest in, instead of me saying, how are your kids? If you have kids, I’m going to say, catch me up. What’s new with the kids. That’s the last thing they saw. And now, you know, I really want to hear about your kids. It’s like you, Jenn, this is assuming a burden. Next time I talk to you. If I say, how are you? You’ll say, well, in your case, you’ll say good. And then you’ll go on. But most people, when I say, how are you? They’ll say good, but instead, there’s a much better icebreaker, folks. Bring me up to date. What’s new in life, Jenn? Since the last time I saw you, I’ve let you know. I really want to hear what’s going on in your life. So assume the burden of making people know that you really care, that you’re truly interested when you have the time and the interest in small talk. And when you don’t have the time, you don’t have to do it. Just get back down to the business at hand. Thanks for asking. That was a long answer. Jenn DeWall: Just thinking it doesn’t have to be, how are you like, Hey, what’s been going on since we last talked, give me an update or just great ways to connect and know that you actually do genuinely want to hear because people want to feel connected Debra Fine: If you were, if I had your husband here instead of you, and I don’t know, I’m not, I’ve never met him. I would never say to him, how’s the new house? Because my guess is your husband would say, great, thanks for asking. Anybody else but you, anybody else but you. Jenn DeWall: No. And that’s why you know, I get that. I, you know, I’ve been going to leadership camp since I was little. And that’s when I did learn how to, you know, talk to people. And part of the reason I even, you know, we’re talking about being seen, like part of the reason that I even came into leadership is recognizing that you know, what I grew up within and I’m not going to go down to the specifics of that, but I, no one really saw me and I didn’t really quite fit in. And then when I started to go to leadership camps, I recognize that it’s our job as individuals to help people feel seen to take a walk in someone else’s shoes. And so you know, I love that because it’s given me so much permission to even go after what I wanted to buy. Just thinking about how can I connect with others and that small talk, you know, the art of small talk, you’ve written multiple books on it. It’s, it’s so important. It’s not just about getting the promotion or getting that next sale. It really is about connecting with people. Debra Fine: It is. Thanks for saying it so perfectly. Jenn DeWall: Well, my final, because I want to know, like, you’ve already worked with Google, you’ve worked with some of these huge organizations. How do people connect with you? How can they get to know more about your books? Get to know more about you? Where can they find you? Debra Fine: The best place to go is my, my website, which is DebraFine.com. So I spell, I own all the spellings by the way, but my spelling is DebraFine.com, D E B R A F I N E.com. And there’s everything, the books, my speaking programs, my workshops, etcetera. I’m thank you for asking that question. And if you Google me, I’m proud to say, because SEO is my middle name. Even if you spell it wrong, I usually come up on the first page. So there you go. Thanks for asking. Jenn DeWall: Well, I mean, I think so many organizations could just really benefit from knowing how to master the art of small talk, because that is really where they can create the inclusive cultures. That’s where they can create. So I, I hope that someone reaches out, I know someone will like, I just, because it’s, it’s really valuable and we need that. It’s the small thing that may get overlooked, right? Because again, we think it’s talk, it’s something That I should know how to do or that, you know, I don’t need to know how to do that, but it really is the glue of so many organizational cultures. So I’m just so happy that you do what you do. Debra Fine: Thank you. It’s been great. And you know, you, you make a great point about diversity and inclusion. If you really want to walk that, then you have to be the one that takes the risk in a sense, the burden of walking up to people that are different than you. And recruiting them and being their friend and cultivating connections. You cannot wait for them because you feel uncomfortable because you don’t know what to say. Organizations will not grow in a positive way if we continue to do that. Jenn DeWall: Deb, thank you so much for coming on the show. Debra Fine: Thank you for asking. I was thrilled. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for tuning into this week’s episode of the leadership habits podcast is I sat down and talked with Debra Fine about The Fine Art of Small Talk. I know that I gained a lot of value and I hope you did too. And if you enjoy today’s episode or maybe know someone that could benefit from just getting a nudge to improve their own communication skills, especially small talk skills, don’t forget to share this with them. Share it with them, help them be better because small talk can be intimidating, but Debra shared some great insights that can help make it more accessible and comfortable and help us be more confident in doing it. And of course, if you liked today’s episode, don’t forget to give us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. And if you want to follow up with Debra, you can purchase her books in many different bookstores, Amazon, or wherever bestselling books are sold, as well as head over to her website. DebraFine.com.   The post The Fine Art of Small Talk with Bestselling Author, Debra Fine appeared first on Crestcom International.

Happy New Year From The Leadership Habit! Full Transcript Below:  Jenn DeWall: Happy new year! Happy 2021! I know that myself, and I’m sure many of you listening are so happy to put 2020 in the rearview mirror. And for this minisode today, we’re going to be talking about how we want to show up in the new year. Now, many of you might be anticipating is Jenn going to share with us some type of motivation new year, new you? Nope. That’s not it because I think that as a result of the pandemic or just the many sufferings that people have had over 2020, we may not be feeling in that place. We may not be jumping for joy at 2021 because we’ve had maybe a loss of a job or a loved one, or we’ve had a complete upending of how we live our lives and that those up-endings, those circumstances if you will, what is happening in life? What this episode or minisode is about is really thinking about how do we want to show up in 2021. I’m not going to tell you to set all these goals. But I want you to be more intentional. So you are stopping that place that we’ve many of us have been in for the pandemic reacting, just feeling like we have no control over what’s going on. We just feel like we’re at the mercy of the pandemic or any other restrictions that are placed on us. But really what we need to do is take ourselves and shift from that passenger seat, back into the driver’s seat and to stop reacting to the way that we live our life. And now, no matter what circumstance you’re sitting in right now, you might be someone that has lost a job. You might be someone that even got a really bad health diagnosis, and you’re not feeling confident. I know that I just spoke with someone that was recently diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. And that’s something that I have. But if that was a new diagnosis, that’s a tough way to start off the new year. Setting Smart Goals – Play the Hand You Are Dealt So what I’m going to talk to you about today on this minisode is learning how to play the hand that you are dealt. Now, one of the biggest pieces of advice that developed my resiliency from a young age is that someone once said, God, doesn’t give you a hand that you can’t play, or God doesn’t give you doesn’t deal you a hand that’s outside of your control. And now this isn’t about, you know, looking at it from a religious perspective, but it is understanding that we have control over how we want to respond to the environments, situations, circumstances, rejections, feelings, everything that happens in our life.And if we want to make the best out of our short, beautiful time here, be the best leaders. Be the best spouses, be the best friends, whatever that may be for yourself. Then we need to start to play the hand that we’re dealt. We need to start to say, okay, well, this rejection happened and I’ve got this. I’m not going to sit here and pitch a tent and wallow. I am going to figure out what can I do to actually strategically intentionally move myself to a place where I feel better now to start that I’m going to recommend five things for you. So here’s how you can play the hand that you’re dealt. #1 – Start with Acknowledging Where You Are And it all starts with number one, your mindset. It starts with acknowledging it. Now, when we think about acknowledging, what does that mean? Well, it’s actually giving a voice instead of just leaving that in our head, leaving it to something that maybe is outside of ourselves. It’s saying, you know what? I may not have been showing up in the way that I want to. Acknowledging it. We have to take responsibility. If you want to take the power back to yourself, you have to own it. If you don’t own it, you can’t control it. Excuse me. You can’t control it. So it starts with acknowledging. Own it to control it, identify what the situation is, what your challenge is, how you’re feeling, what is the thing that is weighing you down, or maybe that you’ve been just reacting to, instead of having an intentional response to. #2 – Identify the Cost of Not Setting Goals Now, number two is to identify the costs of continuing on as is what are the costs to you? If you continue to postpone a job search or to not communicate with your team in the way that you want to, what are those costs? Is it causing you increased stress, lack of happiness, increased conflict, lack of income. What are the costs of you continue to go on this way. Is there a cost if I continue to tell myself, I am not good enough? How is that going to cost me? How is that going to help or hurt my willingness, my motivation to be able to apply for a job or be vulnerable or to speak up in a meeting? We need to identify the cost of continuing on. If you’re not clear on what the costs are, then you may not necessarily recognize that there’s actually a reason that you need to change number. So number one, acknowledge the situation. Number two, identify the cost of continuing on as is. #3 – Create a Vision And number three, now that you know, Hey, this is the cost. I don’t want that. Then we have to create the vision for what you want to be, who is this leader, this individual, this spouse, this husband, this wife, this daughter, whatever that may be for you, who do you want to be? Who are you? Again, 2020 has given us a lot of, Oh my gosh. We feel like we have no control. Your vision is your opportunity to take back control. Do you want to create a very successful business? Do you want to get a promotion, create that vision and be very clear and very specific one minor exercise that you could do, which is very, very helpful, which I found with many coaching clients is just a basic vision statement. Write down a vision statement. And the key is you were going to write it down as if it is one year from the day that you are writing it and you are going to write it in present tense as if it’s already happened. So it might sound like this, you know, one year from today, I am the happiest that I’ve ever been. I made very conscious and intentional choices to get my health to where I need it to be. I decided to pursue a healthier dietary lifestyle because I knew that it would help my overall health in my business. I’m working hard to get promoted and, or I have gotten promoted because we’re writing it in present tense. I got promoted. I did that because I took additional classes. I had conversations with my boss. I demonstrated my own aptitude and desire to get to that role. I want you to think about this, write down a vision statement in present tense and write it as if it’s already happened. And then use that to motivate you, to inspire you, that when those voices come in and say, you can’t do anything about this, or yeah. Well, you know, you tried might as well give up now that you remind yourself that, Nope, I am going to continue to persevere, build my own resilience and work towards that vision of who I deserve to be. #4 – Choose Your Power Word Number four is to choose your power word. Now that you understand your vision. This is what I want to be. What is the word that you can use almost as a foundational compass point that can guide you? It’s your North star that can guide you in your decision-making. Maybe that word for 2021, maybe it’s “choice” recognizing that each and every single one of us has multiple choices every day. And those choices can either bring us closer to where we want to be—that vision that we have or further away. Choose the word that’s going to inspire you to take action to align with that vision. #5 – Set SMART Goals And now five it’s taking action. This is all about setting goals. Now, I don’t want you to have that goal in your head to say, Hey, I guess I’m going to do this. I’m going to do that, put it on paper, hold yourself accountable. And one other way you can do this is by doing a basic SMART goal. Many of you know what that is. SMART goals start with a goal that needs to be specific. What are you trying to accomplish? It needs to be measurable. How are you going to determine your success? Uh, we need to think about whether it’s attainable, whether it’s reasonable, and of course, what’s the time constraint. When are we going to finish it? How are we going to determine that we’ve actually achieved it, so on and so forth? But a way to add to that is to give yourself constraints. We often set a goal, and it happens to be the perfect goal. It would be the goal that if we were a perfect person, if no life events happen, that we would get there. The challenge is that life happens. So we’ve got to build constraints. So if you have a basic goal of, let’s say, even trying to be more fit and more health-conscious this year, then it’s really thinking, okay. If my goal, let’s say, is to be more active, I am going to create MMM SMART Goals. MMM SMART goals. And when I say, MMM, it’s like, they feel so good because no matter what one you’re hitting, whatever you’re getting, you’re accomplishing your goals. So they’re MMM SMART. Goals. And that is three M’s that stands for Minimum, Middle, and Maximum. So when you’re setting a goal that says, I really want to work out more to boost my own physical fitness, the maximum, the perfectionist way that we might send that is I’m going to work out seven days a week. And then, all of a sudden, a few weeks go by, and we find out that we did not work out seven days a week, which is why we need to have other metrics. So instead of just planning on the max, think about the minimum. What is the minimum amount that you could do that would still help you move closer to that goal of being more physically active? Well, it might be working out two times a week. And then when we think, well, what’s the middle, what would I still be happy with? And where would I shoot for what’s manageable given, you know, the life that I live, that my children, my job, all the responsibilities that I have? Maybe the middle could be four. So again, I’ll say that again. You want to create MMM SMART goals. You want to give yourself constraints. You do not give up. If you do not hit the maximum. So you want to create a minimum, a middle, and a max of what that goal looks like. Give yourself some grace, understand that life is going to happen. You may not always be able to do things perfectly, but know that even if you’re taking one small action to align with that vision, that is still successful. Make 2021 an Awesome Year! Thank you so much for listening today. I really hope it’s a value to you because I hope that in this new year that you really look at it instead of reacting to what is going on, you start to look at it as I own the hand that I’m dealt, I have full choice in this, and I want to choose to do what? What do you want to do in this new year? It’s a new year. And if you are six feet above the ground, that is the right place to be. That means that you have an opportunity. And yes, you might be looking at things a little bit, you know, just with a lack of confidence or just doubt. But in this new year, really challenge yourself. Our doubt, all of that self-talk is something that we can control. We just have to go back to the acknowledgment piece of it. So play the hand that you are dealt, embrace it, and make this year a great one.   The post Minisode: Setting SMART Goals for the New Year with Jenn DeWall appeared first on Crestcom International.

Meet Curiosity Instigator, André van Hall Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with André van Hall. Let me tell you a little bit about him. Backed by 40 years of five-star leadership experience as an executive in the hospitality industry, André van Hall presents a fresh and proven message to audiences, which is curiosity is the key to instigate change. As the Curiosity Instigator, the challenges business executives and teams to adopt an attitude of curiosity in order to be innovative, to experience breakthrough thinking, and to be at the forefront of change. In other words, to become a change leader. I hope you enjoy the conversation as André and I sit down and we talk about him being that curiosity, instigator, and how we as leaders can benefit by approaching our day being a little bit more curious. Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for tuning into this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. This week, I am sitting down and talking to André van Hall, who is known as the curiosity instigator, André. Go ahead and tell us about yourself and let the, the Crestcom community know a little bit more about you, who you are, what you do and how you kind of came to be where you are today as the curiosity instigator. André van Hall: Right. Well, my great grandfather was born… No, I’m not going there, but really I am from Argentina and I did my military service there and I fell in love with I was a waiter for the officers eventually, and I loved it and that’s how I go into the hospitality industry. And I went to Germany and I worked in a hotel there and then France then give to the States to go to hotel school. Then I worked in hotels all over the United States. And so it was managing some of truly the most exclusive hotels at some of the larger ones. And but then in 2011, I went suddenly blind and that was something that happened within two weeks. And then I lost my job and I had to reinvent myself. And I, I just fell in love with the idea of being a professional speaker and I could speak on service. You know, service is something I know forwards, backwards and sideways. I’ve trained literally thousands of people on service, but it, it didn’t excite me, you know, like it, it, it, it was, it was so ingrained in me that I wanted something new and different. And I had gone through so much change in my life, you know, two marriages, three continents, 12 cities and then going blind that I thought I could speak about change. And you know, I spoke at something is called the Colorado Speakers Academy, and I was going to speak on change, but they told us that you don’t only need to have a destination. You don’t only need to know what highway are you going to take, but within that highway, you need to pick a lane. And so I thought, I thought I did some research and I saw that nobody links change to curiosity. You see people go to change about the things that happened inside of your brain and, and getting to the scientific side of change. But to me, it is, it changes something it’s more emotional, it’s something that’s inside of you. And and I realized that when I went blind that, that I was pushing back and that people were trying to help me. And and I was the curious, I was not curious about transitioning into blindness. And so I, I figured that linking curiosity to change would be truly a fabulous lane to, to get on. And then I built my business around speaking about change and curiosity. And then when I built my website and I had to get business cards and you know my last title was CEO and running a business and it didn’t turn me on. I mean, CEO was ho-hum and I wanted something completely different. And you know, so that when you give somebody your card, they go, what the heck is a Curiosity Instigator. So that is my title. I am the curiosity and CA and so, and here I am now at age 67 and loving what I do What does Curiosity Have to Do with Change? Jenn DeWall: André. Like, I still have to recognize that we didn’t even take the pause. Right. You kind of skirted over the fact that you led a very successful career that took you to multiple continents. You hit that, you know, career destination of CEO is what many people aspire to do. That’s how we know we’ve made it. And then you had to completely do a redirect after finding or after suddenly becoming blind. How, like, how did you even begin to pick yourself up? Right. You just said that you were initially not curious, which makes total sense because this was something that was completely unplanned. Like how, how did you even begin to start to center yourself around curiosity? André van Hall: Well, thank you. Thank you, Jenn . And it’s a very insightful question. And, you know, as I lay on the gurney, so, so the day that I got diagnosed, I had gone to four different doctors. Okay. I went from an optometrist ophthalmologist to a retina doctor, to an optic nerve doctor. At 9:15 at night, there I was on a gurney at Lutheran Hospital. And the diagnosis was in, I would be blind in two weeks and I was scared. You know, you can imagine that I was angry and I was going down and down and down and into a cesspool of toxic emotions, of fear. And that is the thing, is that our brain, when confronted with change, tries to compare it with something that had previous experience in something like blindness, of course, it’s something you had never experienced. And so then you don’t know the way out. And the, and the thing is that the very next day, one of the past presidents of the organization, that I was a CEO of came to see me. This is André. I heard you are gonna go blind and let’s go and spend some money to buy some devices to help you transition into blindness. And I had not thought about transitioning into blindness. So when, when I do my talk and I challenged my audience, and I say, so what is the channel? The change that is happening in your life, we always have some kind of change happening, and I’m not talking about the happy change, right? That I got married, hallelujah, or I had a baby I, I’m talking about difficult change and you think right away about transitioning. So, so your, your spouse says we need to talk. And you are headed into divorce. The first thought is anger and things like that. And you, don’t think about transitioning into single life. And, and for me, transitioning into blindness was something I pushed back. You know, I am an avid cyclist. I would do 5,000 miles a year on my bicycle. I commuted 16 miles to work each way. And a friend of mine reached out and said, André, why don’t you? And I do a hundred-mile elephant drop bike ride on a tandem. And I’m like, you’re crazy. I’m an in-charge kind of guy, you know, there’s no way I’m going to get to the backseat of the bicycle. Okay. And you, you begin to realize that you can sit proudly at home on the couch, growing fat, and lazy, or you can give in and say, you know what? The backseat may not be so bad after all. Curiosity and Humility André van Hall: But in, in, in my Bible study group, just months before we had been talking about humility, you know, and the definition that I liked the best was the ability to accept help. And boy was I not a humble man, I truly did not know how to accept help. So as is, as I realized slowly but surely over those two weeks, while you may say rather quickly that I had to give up my bicycle. Then I, one day I drove home and I passed a cyclist and I didn’t see him until the very last minute second. And I got home and sat on the driveway and have myself a good cry. And then I grabbed the keys and I went inside and I gave my wife the keys, and I said, don’t ever let me drive again. And as you go through that transition of realizing all of the things that you’re leaving behind, you know, I have a two and a half-year-old granddaughter who I’ve never seen now, I’ve never seen her face. So is, is, you’re scared, right? You’re scared as, as you start to face this monumental change. And but you realize also that there are people like my friend, Tim, that wanted to get on the tandem, and my wife that is trying to get friends to get me a guide dog, and that people that are out there to train me how to use a cane. And that the, that there is this, this whole support system out there for you, that the people that love you. And I was pushing back. So I had to become curious and one slap at a time. Okay. And to realize that I can’t do it solo, you can’t do it alone. That change, difficult change is something that you need help, you need support, and that we are social animals. And you know, it’s, it’s there are people- I talk in my, in my, when I do my talk, talk about Zamperini and the book Unbroken, I don’t know, have you read the book or seen the movie? Unbroken is an awesome book. It’s a good movie. And he’s a test pilot in world war two and crashes explained, and the outside of San Diego and he and his crew get on a life raft. And then that ended up the longest that any, anybody has ever been on the raft and ended up in the Pacific, on an Island, occupied by the Japanese and he’s a prisoner of war for the entire war. And this one guy makes it his mission to break Zamperini. And at the end of the war, he’s unbroken. And I thought people, there are times in our lives where it’s good to be unbroken, but that most times we need to learn to be flexible and to learn, to do things differently and to give in to our pride, so, and show humility. And that was what it was so hard for me. Jenn DeWall: Holy cow, André, I feel like there are so many insightful pieces that any leader could really stand to benefit from. First our own humility. Just recognizing that we do need help that, and I think, you know, leaders have a tendency to put a lot of pressure on themselves that they have to do it on their own, and you had to learn, and you were that person too, right? Stubborn. You’ve got it. Take control and having to learn to let go and recognize that we need help from others to be who we want to be, to achieve the outcomes that we want. And then also understanding that we have to slow down and acknowledge those moments. Like you had talked about how, you know, your final drive, how you, You know, had a close call with the cyclist, but then when you got to your driveway that you gave yourself permission to just process it. And I think, again, leaders are so quick that we just don’t slow down to process our own emotions and really give ourselves permission to feel that way. I mean, André, there’s just so many nuggets. Like, I, I love even starting with that and I, and our interdependence and just the need for ourselves to give ourselves grace. I just so many pieces of wisdom from that, but I can’t even imagine how it’s still difficult that would have been to eventually come over and go through that process, André van Hall: And Jenn, that’s why I truly enjoy speaking, in leadership conferences and to CEOs. And you know, I speak a lot in associations and because you have to learn as a leader. Again, that’s why I say I am the curiosity, instigator. And I, I tell organizations, if somebody is going to hire me to speak in our organization, I tell them, this is you realize I am going to challenge your people to challenge the status quo and to not accept what is, but to create what can be. And so many times in organizations, we have SOP right Standard Operating Procedures, or we have a tradition or something, a culture in the organization that has permeated it for a long, long time. And we don’t realize that we operate within the, the square of this organization. Looking Forward to Change André van Hall: And an example is when I was the general manager of the Hyatt Regency in Louisville, Kentucky, my catering managers came to see me. And they said, you know, the dress code of Hyatt is that we have to wear skirts dresses and hose. And we want to wear pantsuits. My wife had been wearing, she was a national account manager, and she had been wearing pantsuits since the day that I met her. So I thought we were in the stone age. And I said, absolutely. You know, let me call corporate and I’ll have this changed. And I called corporate and I hit the brick wall, you know, and the, no, it’s not the image that we want to portray. And, and so many times, it’s that we’re not curious about where is this headed? You know, we think about now today in today’s world, this is the way it is. And then not seeing we need to be on the bleeding edge of change. I need to, we need to be in the, in the foresight side of change, where are we? We’re seeing what is coming and anticipating and preparing for it and to tell a catering team in when was I there in 1998 or whatever that they could not wear pantsuits to me was absolutely ludicrous. And so, change is difficult and we resist it. And the safe answer is no, the safe answer is, you know, what, if I want to change this, I have to go to the president of the company who I have to go to you know, call the committee and so, so forth to rewrite the handbook. And I don’t want to rewrite the handbook right now. No, I’m not doing it. Okay. And, but what is it doing to the morale of your team? Hey, that’s just one silly example about how we push back on change. And so, so my stake is reach down, walk around, talk to your team members and hear them out. And not only your team members but your vendors, your suppliers, your clients, your past clients. Okay. And do management by wandering around so that you get that curiosity going where you show the people I’m curious about you. And I want you to be curious about our business and how to help us propel change, because in today’s world, if you always do what you always did, you’re out of business. Right. Right. So that’s why I have so much fun with it. Don’t Judge. Assess Instead. Jenn DeWall: I mean, André, I could, Oh my gosh. I just love your story and your insight. And you also have just a great disposition as you talk about this. I’m so engaged. I’m sure our audience is too. I know we had talked about a few of the points that you think are really important for people to start to practice curiosity around change. And one of the points you had was I believe, don’t judge? Don’t judge, assess instead. Tell us more. André van Hall: You know, it’s interesting I am a fan of Pope Francis because not only is he from my hometown, but he is trying to change a 2000 year old institution that is steep, steep in tradition. Right. And so Forbes magazine did an article on him and said, what would happen if we brought these 12 leadership principles into the boardroom? And I read them, but this one is the one that resonated with me. Don’t judge, assess. Because they feel that within the church, we’re so judgmental so many times about the sexual orientation, about divorce, about, I don’t want to get into the politics of church, but it’s, it’s judgmental. And when, when I was told I was going to go blind, I was the first blind man I ever got to know well, right. And I had no blind friends. And so what did I do? I judged my potential as a blind man, and I know I’m exaggerating, but in theory, I was thinking what I can do is sell pencils from a thin cup at the local mall. Right. Instead of assessing and saying, so what is the potential of me as a blind man? And how, how can I be the best that I can be in spite of my blindness? So I’m not the blind guy that is André I’m Andrée, that happens to be blind. Okay. So I don’t want it to be defined by blindness. And so the thing is I had to learn to accept the fact that being blind was not going to be a significant barrier. Now Jenn DeWall: Wait. There’s a choice in there that was- sorry to interrupt you. But like right there, that choice of being and saying, you know what, I can judge it, which is what I would have done in the past. And maybe applying those past narratives to yourself of what you would have assumed someone that was blind could be capable of because you just don’t know. And you had to then make a choice to say, okay, I’m not going to apply that, like that power of choices that self-awareness, I think is really, that’s the first thing that I think is actually a struggle for most people to grab onto and just say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I get to choose. I get to choose. André van Hall: Yes. Yes you do. You know what it’s? And it’s interesting. And we had briefly discussed, but as I, as I lay on that gurney at the, at the hospital, and all of a sudden I had this absolutely silly thought and I thought of a really bad joke and the nurse asks, so why are you laughing? I said, well, I thought about jokes about this. I told her, and she laughed. She said, Oh my God, you got to tell my friends. So she goes and gets the other nurses. And then the doctor wants to go, why there’s so much noise in the emergency room. Okay. And now we’re telling jokes with the doctor. And I realized that while I was going blind, by the moment, blinder, darker and darker, then my outlook had momentarily shifted from this bear to going to the light, you know? And so what I see is that when difficult change comes okay, in a brain gets confronted with that, change it, just to compare it to previous things. And when it doesn’t know how to do it, it just goes down to that cesspool of toxic emotions. And and the deeper, deeper you allow yourself to go into those, that cesspool of fear and anger and despair, and so, so forth, the harder it is to get out. And sometimes, sometimes it’s good to just wallow in self-pity. Right. I mean, you, we, we, yeah, Jenn DeWall: We can’t pretend that, like, things aren’t, you know, that we don’t love that, or we don’t have emotions about it. We have to give ourselves permission to grieve or experience that. André van Hall: Right. Right. But the thing is, I also did realize it for the briefest of moments. Okay. That there was a light up there. Okay. And there was laughter. And that I needed to give myself permission to laugh and and, and not take myself so seriously. And that is another thing that I talk about is we tend to take ourselves so, so seriously in our difficult moments, we exaggerate what is happening to us. Okay. and instead when you assess something, so you have a partner, you have a child, a grandchild that you’ve got an employee, and they’ve showed some behavioral patterns. And we take those patterns to be something that we judge them on. Okay. Based on this pattern, I believe you are this, but when we instead assess the employee, what is their potential? It’s not okay. They screwed up a couple of times, but do I see potential in this person? And how can I bring out the best in them? André van Hall: And I think that is part of change is, is to identify, you know, I don’t know if you’re an, but, I mean, if, if John Elway had chosen ballet, he might have been terrible at it, terrible at it. Right. And it just because he’s an athlete, that doesn’t mean that he would be a great athlete at everything in football, he excelled and it’s, how do we help people find that space where they excel? And the problem is when we judge them, we just put them down, put them down, put them down and keep lowering their self-esteem. But instead, when we assess them, we start to see, you know, we judge people that are different than us. And that is what I find is so difficult that today’s world where we have become so, so polarized. André van Hall: Okay. It judgment. You tell me you’re of a political party and I judge you. Okay. And judge you just because you told me that you’re either red or blue. Okay. Instead of assessing of who are you okay. And what a wonderful person are you, and you are not identified by the color that you choose to be a politician or support you are identified by the whole, you are. And we need to be able to respect different points of view and not judge each other because of, you know, I’m an immigrant. Okay. And I, I’ve never had a chip on my shoulder about being an immigrant, on the contrary. I am very proud to be an immigrant because I love, love, love this country. And I think it’s really, I don’t think it’s one of the best in the world because many countries claim the same thing, but for a place to live, I don’t want to live anywhere else. Okay. But we tend to judge immigrants. We tend to judge people from other races and stuff like that. So anyway, off of my high horse, it’s I think that the assessing is, is, is absolutely crucial and that we need to understand when we are judging it, that we, we say stop that. Okay. Start assessing instead. And that’s why it, it really in, in my book and in my talk it’s, it’s a huge chunk of what I talk about is the difference of judging and assessing. Jenn DeWall: Yeah, I think that most people really could benefit from just even applying that to one situation at work, maybe a situation that you’re particularly frustrated by, or you don’t know what to do, maybe that’s because there’s finite judgments that need to be relaxed into curiosity. I love that. I think so many people can benefit from just slowing down and assessing, instead of judging someone, limiting their possibilities or reducing their self-confidence and going onto the next person. Curiosity is Looking Forward André van Hall: And I think it ties into my curiosity theme, right. Because if you’re judging, you’re looking backwards. Okay. When you’re assessing, you’re looking forward and to look forward, you need to get curious. And I use looking on purpose, you know, and the Dalai Lama said something very interesting about said a lot of things that are very interesting, but one of the quotes that I love it says, when you’re speaking, you’re just repeating things, you already know, when you’re listening, you may learn something new. Okay. So when you’re judging people, you’re judging them based on your speaking on, on stuff that you already know that you think you know about people of a certain kind. Okay. But when you’re assessing in a sense, you’re listening, you have to hear who they are to try to find out so you can assess their potential. And so it’s, it’s, it’s a lovely quote. Jenn DeWall: That’s a beautiful one. And we could stand to gain so much. Every person is your teacher and your student. If we just put on our, our listening. The next piece that you, you know, you had talked about is that change is not the enemy, but how you handle it. André van Hall: Yeah. Yes. And you know, life is not what happens to you. It’s how you choose to handle it. So we are, I truly believe that we are the result of our choices. Okay. We make choices through our life, throughout our life. And and those are the result of those choices is who we are today. And you know, I chose to volunteer to do my military service ahead of my age group, so I could get it out of the way so I could leave the country to start my education. So that joys led me do going to bootcamp and then ending up being a waiter for the officers. Okay. And when they asked for who knows how to cook- in the, in the military, you learn that you never raise your hand, but I chose to raise my hand. André van Hall: And so, and then I chose to go to Germany, and then I chose to go to Paris, right? So it’s, it’s choices. If I had chosen to stay in Argentina, and my mom wanted me to be a doctor or lawyer or anything like that, anything but being a glorified waiter. And so we are a result of our choices. And that is what I think makes us who we are today. And that’s why it’s important to us that, that what happens to us is going to happen. Okay. So I talk about an environmental change, and that is, you know, the, the, all of a sudden you grow older and you get sick, or the, the, the weather kills your crop. Okay. So that that’s, that’s, that’s environmental changes. Then there is purposeful change. And purposeful change is, the one you set out to do, or somebody else set out to do to this, to disrupt your business. André van Hall: Okay. They, they invent something better than you did, or they it’s something, the spouse does. You have the talk, okay. So that’s purposeful change. And then there is disruptive change, right. That is a change that is so great that it disrupts something. And I’m not talking about Henry Ford introducing the car. Of course, that is disruptive. But I also talk about the insignificant thing of our own lives. That all of a sudden, somebody says, that’s at the talk. That could be a disruptive change. So it just not what happens to you as a result of that disruptive change, but how you choose to handle it. Choose Curiosity by Shifting Your Perspective André van Hall: So, André, you’re going to be blind in two weeks. Okay. It’s, it’s a diagnosis. Okay. That happened to me. And, but is by blindness, by enemy. Okay. I can’t help blindness. My optic nerve died. The connection between my eyes and my brain has gone, or is a filament left that lets me see shapes and light. Okay. And so what do I gain by being angry at blindness? Okay. But I do gain a lot about how I handle that change. And so when you’re told, I’m sorry, but due to COVID, we’re going to lay you off. Okay. You are laid off, stuck, getting angry, being angry about being laid off and start to think about how you’re going to prosper and move on. What do you need to do today? Okay. To take care of your family right now. And that’s why I think it is absolutely critical that we understand that what happens to us is not the enemy, but how we choose to handle it certainly is. So, so shift your thinking, you know, in that I like the story of the two women that are in the steam room, right, and one says, son of a guns. André van Hall: And, you know, my ex-husband just took half of my money on the divorce. And the other one says, wow, you are so lucky. So what do you mean? I’m so lucky. She says, well, I invested all my money in the market. I lost half of it and still have my husband. So it’s a matter of perspective. Right? How do you look at it? Okay. It’s Oh, I lost half of my money. Okay. Because of my bastard husband, or I lost half of my money in the market. And man, I’m still stuck with that bastard. Right. So, so it is not what happens to you is how you choose to handle it. That makes a difference. So my, my stake again, is get curious about alternatives and start right away due to seek, how am I going to handle it? What am I going to do? Instead, I, I I was running the Adams park hotel in Denver, which is now the Sheraton downtown big 1200 room hotel. We had a convention and the hotel, it was the Future Business Leaders of America, all high school students. Jenn DeWall: Oh yeah. I was in that! FBLA! André van Hall: And so four kids to a room, a thousand rooms, 4,000 kids, running around crazy. And a fire alarm went off. Okay. So they tell me all the fire alarm went off of this floor and I run up because of course the elevators all came down. So I ran up to the 15th floor or somebody pulled the fire alarm. So I’ve got another fire department. They’re angry, kids running all over the place. Everything is going crazy. So we reset it, go back to my office, fire alarm. And now they have an actual fire that somebody set in the maid closet. Okay. The sprinklers put it out. Okay. Yes. Smoke everywhere. Water everywhere. Fire department, arson department running kids are everywhere, chaos. And I’m talking to the arson department, fire alarm goes off. Okay. So run into another place. Somebody had pulled the fire alarm and I running over to it. André van Hall: I said, wait a minute, wait a minute. These kids are managing you. You need to manage them. You need to stop running around, let the professionals handle the actual pull box and fires. Okay. That were happening. You need to manage the situation. So I went to my office and I called the head of the group and the chaperones, I called my security team. I had the fire department, the arson department, the police department. And we came up with a strategy, okay. Off announcing through the speakers that everybody had to go to their rooms. They’re aware, stay in their rooms. You’re going to put hall monitors. Okay. Whatever we stopped it. But the problem is, so I allowed that what was happening to me to manage me instead of me stopping and saying, okay, what do I need to do? How, how are we going to stop this? André van Hall: And how many times did it take for me to realize that I was handling this totally the wrong way by running through the fire instead of managing the situation. Right. And so to me, that was a very important lesson in my life. And to, to understand that you cannot allow the situations to manage you. It is your responsibility to manage the situation and the sooner that you stop and realize it. So when I went blind, I was blessed with the fact that, that I am innately curious. Okay. And I literally went the very next day. I called the company to say, okay, how am I going to use my computer as a blind man? And they told me, Oh, you need to install window eyes or jars. Okay. Was this called screen readers? Okay. Software. And it was very complex. André van Hall: And and then my iPhone already had built in the iPhone has built in things that reads everything to you. So I went to the Apple store and and they told me, Oh yes, every Apple product has a screen reader built in. Okay. Wow. So I went and I have said, okay, each me out to teach me how to use the Apple products. And for the next month, as I transitioned from sighted into blind, I learned how to use them. So now I am extremely adept at handling all technology and listen to any book. Okay. Whatever. But it was thanks to the fact that people like, like this guy, that came- and so one of my past presidents of the organization that I was running game that said, André, let’s go and spend some of our money to buy your devices so you can transition into buying this and that word transition into blindness is not something I’d thought of. André van Hall: And as I started to go as, as I was in the store and they told me, okay, here’s how you need to learn to use a cane. And I realized I needed to go to the division of vocational rehabilitation to get a caseworker. Who’s going to give me a trainer and I’m going like, no way, I don’t want a case worker. That’s the pride thing coming again. And then stopping so prideful. And there is an organization about, this is going to teach you how to do it and you better get up and do it. So those are the sorts of things that, that, that forced me to realize that what happens to you is, is inconsequential. It’s how you choose to handle it. That is consequential. Jenn DeWall: Absolutely. I, you know, that’s so important because it just reminds us that we can be the victim forever for as long as we want, we can play the victim, but things, you know, I say this to the students that I teach on behalf of, Crestcom like, if you’re going to be the victim, you have to truly think about that situation. That might be when you are sick and you need to ask for help when you can’t do it on your own. But many things are actually not worthy of being labeled as a victim where you are helpless and hopeless. It just requires that shift in your own mind. And I want to wrap up and close the podcast because we’re are nearing our time. Is it okay with you? If we go a little bit over, André van Hall: Oh, yeah. I”m disappointed, I’m having a great time! Intellectual Humility Jenn DeWall: Great! I just want to make sure! You know, one of the things change is inevitable. Personal growth is optional. Good. The we’ll hit these last two points because I think I, I love this conversation and it’s truly something that I, I don’t think we slow down to even stop ourselves to remind ourselves that we can go from that passenger seat where we feel like we’re just being controlled to that driver’s seat and we can steer the car and choose where it’s going. But change is inevitable and personal growth is optional. What are your thoughts on that? That was one of the things that you shared. André van Hall: One of the things I wanted to go back for a moment he’s asking, asking for help is not part of the victim profile. Okay. And I think that asking for help is, is a sign of strength. And you know, and you know, you’re probably way too young to remember days before the, google maps and, and you know, directions to places, but us guys are famous for not wanting to ask for direction, right. And and, or read manuals. And so this, there is no weakness and asking for help or asking for directions. And I believe that when you go to your team and you tell your team and you say, look, this is the situation. André van Hall: As a matter of fact, there’s something called intellectual humility. And the Laszlo Bock, the (former) vice president of HR at Google. He looks for intellectual humility in his candidates. And intellectual humility is when you acknowledge that you don’t know something. Okay. Because there’s three areas of knowledge. Right. You know what you know, you know what you don’t know, and you don’t know what you don’t know. Okay. And those last two are the biggest, biggest area of knowledge. So what he looks for is that, okay, here’s a scenario, Madam candidate. Okay. And how would you handle it? And if the person he needed says, Oh, I would do this. And I would do that. And they are fudging it. Okay. He doesn’t want that person. He wants the person that says, wow, that, that, that would be challenging. And, but, you know, I would go to the legal department or I would go to this department or I would form a group. Okay. Or I would Google it, whatever. Right. So I think that intellectual humility and in asking for help, I encourage people to see that it shows strength. It’s, it’s my children say that one of the most memorable moments of their lives was when I asked them to help me with something rather than the other way around. And so at any rate, so what was the question you just asked? Jenn DeWall: I just, yeah, no, I’ll ask it again, but it, intellectual humility. I’ve never actually heard that concept before. And what a beautiful way to, you know, use that, to determine how you can work with someone or even hiring someone, or just recognizing that within ourselves, that it’s a, you know, a really strong sign of our own character. If we have intellectual humility, I just love that André van Hall: It realize our our limitations. Right. I can’t do this and, you know, and it’s not so interesting. So, so there are blind people, disabled people, people that are differently abled that, you know, see, I don’t want to be treated any different. All right. I, I am no different from you. I just happened to be blind. And but I am a little bit different than that, you know, and if Southwest says, you know, you can, pre-board the plane with your dog so that I can have the bulkhead seats so that I can go there and comfortably put my luggage away, knowing that I’m not holding up anybody, I’m going to take advantage of it. And so, so to me, that is not a sign of weakness is, is to take advantage of things that exist out there to make our lives a little bit easier. And I embrace those things. And to me, it’s not a sign of weakness, understanding your limitations. I think it’s important. Change is Inevitable. Personal Growth is Optional. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. And I, that’s very powerful. It gives us, we can give ourselves permission to be able to embrace the help or ask for more, or just learn to be able to be. You don’t have to put the pressure on yourself to be everything, to everyone, know everything all the time. That’s a beautiful gift. Okay. So change is inevitable. André van Hall: Yes. But personal growth is optional, it’s optional. And it goes hand in hand to what we were discussing. Yeah. Right. And the change is going to happen. Okay. Are you going to draw from it or are you going to retract from it? And so it’s your choice. And it’s, it’s interesting. A a friend of mine works for a huge construction company and they were building the Mall of the Americas in Minneapolis. And they had the, a very novel way of doing the roof for the center gondola or like the center area. And the had to build a roof on the ground and then the raise, the roof to put it where it needed to be. And the foreman is there, you know, with his cigar, watching those roof going up. And my friend who was an executive for the company in the standing there trepidation of this first time, and he told him, my goodness, how things are changing. And these are some, and we tell you, change is inevitable, but personal growth is optional. Okay. And that’s where it came from. And, and I loved it because I, are you going to get stuck in the past? Okay. Because of change or are you going to choose to learn from the situation, enrich yourself and then move on. Jenn DeWall: Right. Which probably brings us to your final point. So thinking about how you feel. Or so you feel things around you need to change, but have you considered that the one that needs to change is you? I think that’s probably the most difficult one for many myself included. Right. I mean, I’m human- to recognize, where am I in this equation? How do I need to adjust? Why do you think people struggle with that? Why do we, why do we struggle with recognizing that we might be the one that needs to change? André van Hall: Because we got to where we are because of us. Okay. So we believe in us and in higher, we get in our organization, the more we believe that it’s us. Okay. That it is because of my strength because of where I am because of my vision, because of my power. I go to where I am and therefore I can’t show intellectual humility. And that’s why I have to always have the answers. I was in school, as I said, I was raised in Argentina and I went to a British all-boy boarding school. Okay. So, okay. Okay. You know what I mean, in your binders? Oh, he was in the school of magic Jenn DeWall: Harry Potter! André van Hall: Not a School of Magic for me, it was the school of misery because our sports were rugby, soccer and cricket, and I sucked at it all. Okay. And I was a nerd. I was, I was that kid, right? The one in front of the classroom, raise your hand. My uniform was always impeccable. It’s so, so forth. And I was brutally, I mean, I mean, violently bullied. And so one day I went to my father and says, dad, you’ve got to change my school. And he says, look, I can change your school. But the baggage that makes up who you are is going to go with you to the next school. And for the same reasons that they pick on you at this school, they’re going to pick on you at that school, the one who needs to change, it’s you and I was angry. Oh, I, I hated him. André van Hall: And I did not understand the message and he died shortly afterwards and then I never got to thank him for it. Because it was years later that I finally understood. Okay. That sometimes the one who changes you. And you say, ok Andre, so what did you change? Okay. What can you choose? Well, I am an athlete today. Okay. I am an avid cyclist, an avid skier. I was a fanatic wind surfer. And I also could have, you know, the tie had because we, as you saw, I mean, the, our uniforms, we, we had ties and blazers and whatever, and I would, you know, the, the cool kids would not have the tie all the way to the top. And their hair might be just a little bit longer than regulation and just pushing the limits. Okay. But also to be cool that kids would go out and sneak and smoke. And I never smoked in my life. There’s things that you never give in on. Okay. Zamperini in Unbroken. There’s some things that you draw a line on. André van Hall: You say, I’m not going to cross this line, but there are other things that you need to understand that you blame everything around you. Okay. You blame your blindness, you bring it, you blame, you get your boss or you’re getting fired, or you blame your, your neighbor for having better fertilizer and having greener grass. Okay. And incentive on a sense, you are the one who needs to say neighbor, how do you make your grass greener. What can I learn from you? You know, instead of, you know, my motto is if the grass is greener on the other side of the lawn let him mow it. Jenn DeWall: You don’t have to worry about it, I love that! André van Hall: So, you know, it is be open to the idea. You know, when I lost my job, I could blame the world for me losing my job after I went blind. Okay. But do I realize that sometimes the one who needs to change is you. And it’s did I lose my job because of other people or a man responsible, I was once divorced. I’m now married for 33 years, but it was, and I could tell you horror stories about my ex. Okay. But it does take two to tango, does it? Yeah. So we have to accept the responsibility for the things that happen around us in our lives. And and when we do that, we begin to understand that we are responsible for, for, for I, me and myself, all three of us. And so open yourself up to do introspection. André van Hall: And to understand that the blindness has changed who I am to a certain degree. And I am the one who needs to know, adapt to a completely new reality. And but if I’m going to succeed or not, it’s up to me. So I love the, you know, what, the 10 most powerful two letter words in the English language are? I’m going to repeat that. The 10 most powerful two letter words in the English language are: if it is to be, it is up to me. You have 10 words each are two letters. And when you put them together, they pack so much power. If it is to be, it is up to me. Okay. So it’s up to me to decide whether I’m going to continue to feel sorry for myself, or pull myself up by my bootstraps and say, I need to handle this. André van Hall: If I have a fight with my wife, is it, am I going to say, okay, it’s up to her to apologize. I’m not going to do anything about this. Okay. I’m not wrong. I was right in this argument. Or are you willing to say if it is to be, it is up to me. And if we all think that way, if we all willing to take responsibility. So if, if my wife and I say taking out the garbage is a 50 50 responsibility, okay. So then this is sort of 50. This is my 50, and we barely touch. But if we say taking out the trash it’s responsibility to, you know, if the one who sees that the garbage bin is full, and that now we have a hundred percent overlap, right? It’s it’s either me or you, but we were going to do it without fighting. André van Hall: And if it is to be, it’s up to me to decide, yeah. It’s time to take out the garbage. And when you start to have that kind of relationship, you come from a lot more strength then where it’s I barely meet , they barely touch because I think, Oh, I did it today, so now it’s your turn. So that’s why I think it is such a powerful thing. How to Connect with Curiosity Instigator André van Hall Jenn DeWall: Yeah. And what a powerful way to even close to our listeners is really just, you know, thinking, how could you benefit if you thought, if it is to be, it is up to me, André, how can people get in touch with you? How can, because I know that you work with organizations, you do, keynotes. I mean, obviously we’ve talked a lot about curiosity change, embracing it in 2020 and 2021. I’m sure too. It’s still bringing a tremendous amount of change that we haven’t seen before. How can people connect with you? André van Hall: Thank you very much price, because that’s the question. And I am André van Hall and van Hall is V A N space, H A L L. But my website is andrewvanhall.com. And in there, my book is there. Okay. My book is on Amazon. Okay. The Curiosity of Change. And but through my website is probably the easiest way and or otherwise my email is André@AndrévanHall.com. And I love hearing from people and people call me and say, Hey, my grandfather is going blind and he doesn’t know how to handle technology. So I gladly call your grandfather and have a chat with him and see if there’s any way that I can help him. So reach out. I’d love to chat with you. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, André, for sharing your time, your experience and your vulnerability to help our leaders listening, you know, look at life a little bit differently today. To practice that curiosity. I greatly appreciate it. André van Hall: Well, I truly enjoyed being with you and you’re a great interviewer. Thank you. And also thank you to the magicians behind the curtain. I forgot their names. Jenn DeWall: Emily and Christian! We can give them a public shout out, André van Hall: Yes, thanks for inviting me. I really enjoyed it. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I hope you leave this feeling inspired and empowered that you can go out and truly be curious in your life. And that curiosity can open up new possibilities and choices for you to succeed, to develop others and many other things. If you want to connect with André, or if you want him to speak to your organization about change, he does many keynotes. He works with a lot of organizations and you can connect with him at his website, AndréVanHall.com. And as he said, don’t hesitate to reach out. Even if you have questions about anything, he would love the conversation. And if you enjoyed this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, please share it with your friends. Share with someone that you know, could benefit from hearing that message. And of course, leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service.   The post Adapting to Change with Curiosity Instigator, André van Hall appeared first on Crestcom International.

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I sat down with Nora Burns. And let me just tell you a little bit about why this is going to be such a great episode, because we’re going to be talking about bias and hiring, but here’s why you need to listen to Nora. Think about it. What would you learn about leadership and workplace culture? If you step onto the front lines and mop the floors, stock the shelves, or made the deliveries. Nora Burns a leading expert in leadership and workplace culture did just that. And as a Fortune 200 Executive, Nora Burns witnessed the phenomenon of disconnection between the boardroom and the break room and its cost to the organizations. She became obsessed with understanding this disconnect in bridging the gap between titled and informal leaders while remaining in touch with all levels of the organization. In the years, she invested in analyzing leaders and working as the undercover employee for big brands, Nora uncovered some truly remarkable stories and enjoy as she shares with us, multiple examples and stories of how we can unbias our hiring process. Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s been a while. And on this week, I am sitting down with leadership thought leader, Nora Burns, and we are talking about the ever important topic of bias in our hiring practices. Nora, thank you so much for sitting down on Crestcom’s Leadership Habit podcast. We are so happy to have you here with us today. Nora Burns: Of course, I’m delighted, you know, I’m a total geek on this topic, so this might be the longest podcast. Oh no, you’ve got a hard stop. Nevermind. Okay. Seven day podcast episode. Jenn DeWall: Yeah, we’ll just do the longest one ever. Let’s just talk a little bit about your background, what you do, because I know that you work with clients all over and you help them in a variety of capacities, but I’d rather hear you talk about it than me try to fumble through. Because I, you know, I’m not always great in that capacity, but no worries. Just go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience. I know that you, Hey, we talked to you back, I believe. Oh my gosh, the pandemic, you know, 2020, this is your second episode. Nora Burns: 17 years ago. I think it was about 17 years ago that we left. Jenn DeWall: But Nora, yeah. Tell us what you do. Meet Nora Burns and The Leadership Experts Nora Burns: Yeah, so, well, my name is Nora Burns and my business name is The Leadership Experts. And I have this passion around how we lead effectively to ensure that the ECHOS that we put out into the universe, both as leaders, as well as, as team members have a positive return. Right? So, so that’s kind of my passion. Everything I do is filmed around, focused around. How do you look from a different perspective? How do you shift your perspective to see this experience differently in order to improve it? So we’ve talked before in your previous podcast about the fact that I’m the undercover candidate and that I’ve been on over 250 job interviews, not as myself. Just looking for some things in the hiring process there to help organizations redesign theirs and I’m the undercover employee. So I worked for 15 months on the front lines of five different Fortune 500 organizations where they didn’t know that I’m an expert in leadership and workplace culture. And they saw me as the cashier and the warehouse employee and the person who cleaned the bathrooms a lot. So some of the things we’ll talk about today when we talk about bias. And the impact that bias has is informed not only by my own my own study behind doing a lot of reading and research, but also about my own experience during those research projects and what I saw and what I played with then and what kind of showed up. So, so that’s, that’s who I am and I’m based in Denver, Colorado. Jenn DeWall: So your experience, Nora, as you know, I think it really, it blows anyone else out of the water. To know that many people in leadership positions maybe have never even experienced some of the things in their organization, whether it’s the experience of a frontline staff or even what their specific hiring process looks like. They may only have experienced at the time they got hired, but they don’t see the consistency as they onboard new people. So I’m excited to be able to draw from all of this information and knowledge that you have to share with our viewers. Thank you again so much for sitting down with us. So what like so hiring, I mean, we, how we even came about, like we need to do another podcast was just a really interesting conversation that you initiated just around, you know, the unconscious bias. Jenn DeWall: But the, the question to start with then is why do people with good intentions still accidentally discriminate? Because we know that it happens. You’ve seen it happen more firsthand than I ever have. So why does it still happen? People, you know, why are we still discriminating? Well, it’s interesting because there is the spectrum, right? So there’s the spectrum of people who are purposefully willfully, discriminating, people who are like, I absolutely acknowledge the fact that I will not hire a woman or a man or somebody who is of a different color or race, religion. There are people who will still willfully discriminate. We’re not going to talk about those today. That’s the whole, that whole bucket over here that are those people who are purposefully willfully discriminating. And then there’s the spectrum across to the people who have just stumbled into it and are accidentally discriminating because of their own bias, because we all have bias. Bias on its face, right? Is not- bias is really a preference for one thing or the other. Right? Nora Burns: I prefer the mountains to the ocean, which is why I live by the mountains. Right. Still love the ocean, but my preference is for the mountains, right? So that’s, that’s a bias that I have towards where I live. That’s not a discriminatory bias in terms of hiring thing, but it’s a bias. So I want to make sure that when we say bias, we’re not attaching it as like the word on its own on its face is bad. Right? Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Because I think that is a misconception. I know that I’ve seen it in my space where people, you know, it can feel like a label that people just don’t want. Like, I don’t want to say that I have bias, but we all have it. We can’t get away from it. We all Have Bias Nora Burns: And we all have bias. And it’s based on all of our filters, all of our own experiences and it is living in our brains. So it’s really neuroscientists who are at the leading edge of the studies on how bias impacts all of our decisions on a daily basis. But really it’s a matter of us reclaiming that decision-making control and not letting biases make the decision, but having us purposefully, willfully making the right decisions. But the people who are unwilling to acknowledge bias are the people who will most often let their biases take control. So it’s when people say, Oh no, I don’t have any bias. Like, you know, don’t attach any of the ISTs to me essentially. Right? I don’t have any bias. I am. I am always looking at everything completely clear. And what have you, and that is the most dangerous person to have as your hiring manager, because we all have bias. And we have a society that doesn’t really allow us to talk about it. We often get shamed when we talk about it, but within our organizations, we need to be able to say, I know that I have my own biases. And so I want to make sure that when I’m hiring, I’m taking that into consideration so that I’m not tilting the scales. I don’t have, you know, the fingers on the scale of one side of that. And it’s small, they’re little things. They’re little things. Our brains are incredible are incredible. Okay. Nora Burns: So like today I’m drinking a hot coffee. I love coffee. So I’m drinking a hot coffee. If I were interviewing you for a job while I’m drinking this hot coffee. And then in the next hour, I interview an equally qualified candidate, someone who face on the face of your resumes and your work experience and your job samples, it would be difficult to discern, which of you is actually the stronger candidate and I’m interviewing them next. And I’m finished with my coffee and I go and pour myself a nice cold ice water. My bias is going to give the preference to you because I was drinking a hot beverage and I, my unconscious bias. There’s just something about her that was just warmer. It’s just really warmer than that other person. Jenn DeWall: Wait, what!? That is mind blowing to think that even some, a beverage choice, which I think, you know, I know you’re talking about accidental, you know, accidental dental bias, but I had no idea to even think that what I would have were a beverage could potentially play into how I perceive someone in an interview. Nora Burns: Yeah. So now let’s add asking different questions in a different room at a different time of day, or like all of the other things that change in shift during a hiring process. And then we’re, and then when we get to the end of the hiring process, if we haven’t used a data driven process, standard hiring questions in a data driven process, oftentimes hiring managers will say, I don’t know, my gut just says to go with this person. I don’t know why. I don’t know why. As soon as, as soon as you use the expression, “I don’t know why I prefer them over the other one,” bias is at work. That’s your cue. You know, there is bias at work. Bias is Not Always What You Think Jenn DeWall: When you say that, and you’re not even talking about the bias that I think most people think about, you’re actually asking them to sit down because to your point there, which I love is like, how can you add more structure into your process to reduce that accidental bias that plays, but I don’t think many people even realize I didn’t until you just shared that, that if I would interview someone, you know, I’m a morning person. So if I interview someone in the morning, I am typically more alert. I feel like I have better connection by the end of the day, my tank, you know, I’ve expended a lot of energy, so I don’t connect as much at the end of the day, just because I’m a little bit more tired. And yeah, I would be doing an absolute disservice to someone by interviewing them at the end of the day. Because all I would probably be thinking is when can I turn like turn myself off and just like relax and wind down for the day. And that is, wow. I’ve never really- Nora Burns: Unless you’re interviewing all of your candidates late in the day. Right. So if I’m doing 6:00 PM interviews for everybody, great. Jenn DeWall: Now I’m like, gosh, I feel like I would have needed to know that in my experience scheduling interviews with, you know, that was part of the role that I played in HR for the brief time that I was there. But I would have, I wish I would’ve known that because I just looked at someone’s calendar and said, well, this looks like a good time that they can make it work. Perfect. Let’s schedule that .I didn’t even realize. And I feel like that’s the first start of that. I’m setting up that manager for bias then of not knowing. And I’d never thought about that. Holy cow, Nora Burns: A lot of things impact what’s happening in our decision making process that we’re not paying attention to. And it’s all happening in the background of our brains. Right? So, so right. Warm drink, cold drink. You don’t get, I wanted it without having read the information about somebody having done that study. I would not have occurred to me that that would have come into play. And yet as a speaker and trainer, I know that if I’m on at the 1:00 PM time slot, right after lunch, I’m going to have to work a lot harder. And if I’m on the 8:00 AM slot, right, because of the impact of lunch. So I know that there’s things environmentally that impact how engaged people are and what decisions we make. And yet there’s all kinds of little things that we don’t even think about. And that’s how really well-intentioned people make biased decisions. And it happens in little ways like the coffee or the water. And it happens in big ways by one of the biggest things is if I allow, if I allow a candidate’s resume to direct the conversation that is wrought with bias! And I can- Jenn DeWall: Wait, wait, wait, wait. So let’s talk about this because I know that we can go a lot of directions. So let’s talk, how do you overcome it? So one of the ways, so how do we overcome this accidental bias that we don’t even realize that maybe we have, and that’s fully present in our hiring process? How do we overcome it? So the first thing that you’re saying is, I know you said a structured process and we’re going to go to that. But now another thing that you’re also saying is thinking about how do you start with a resume because yes, again, you look at the resume and you highlight what you think, you know, looks like it aligns with the job description. You ask questions about it, but that is not a great thing. That’s what I’m hearing? Nora Burns: This hiring process that most organizations have been using for decades upon decades. If not centuries is flawed, right? We’ve automated, it we’ve updated it with automation, but it still comes down to the fact that you’re filling out an application of some sort. And we’re using that to make a decision. This is the same process that was being used in the 1800’s and hiring somebody to work at the market, right? Like, so there’s those, we’ve layered these processes in. So let’s back up all the way. So if we’re going to go through it in a systematic way, let’s go all the way back to our job posting. So if you want to try to eliminate bias within your hiring process, you got to go all the way back to that very first touchpoint. Because when we post a job, right there, we have some unconscious bias. If we’re not actively looking to overcome it. Avoiding Gender Bias in Job Postings Nora Burns: So there are words that will be more likely to attract a female candidate versus a male candidate, right? So there’s gender words. And we pack our job postings with things that say like competitive and determined. And I really need somebody to build, right? Those are three masculine terms. Now I can hear some of you already being like, wait, like masculine terms? But we know that when we pack a job posting with words like that, like competitive and determined and build that we will get more male candidates. And if I use terms more like cooperative and team and create- those words tend to draw more female candidates. Right? Jenn DeWall: No kidding. That’s what I think about that. I’m like, I want to apply for the one that’s cooperative, like focuses on team. Nora Burns: Yeah, I want to create versus build it’s it’s this nuance that says we’re going to draw more of one or the other candidate. Now some of this you’re going to have to play with, so data is your friend in avoiding bias. So if I run a job posting, I’m a huge fan of AB testing by the way. Meaning having two job postings for the same job that are worded differently out in marketplace and pay attention and ask, have something in the job posting where they have to designate something in their cover letter when they submit. So you’ll know which one it came from. And then you can look at your data where, who, who responded to which one right? Or men or women or people who don’t identify, don’t have a gender identity who choose not to identify their gender. If you have a drop of a particular race, if you have a drop, you know, any of the markers that you want to try to measure to break down bias. Bias in the Job Description Nora Burns: So our language and our job posting, we also know through research that if you put those little things in the job, posting the things that are like the dream, like really nice to have, like, I don’t absolutely need it, but I was sure love it. But it’s something that they’re going to do maybe once or twice a year, if they have that skill, let’s leave those dream things off of our job postings. The reason I want you to leave dream things off of job postings and not even couch it in the language that says it’d be nice to have or special, you know, preference given for this particular unusual skill that we don’t really need, is that more men will apply to that job than women will. Women tend to want to check all the boxes. So if they’re not suitable under every single thing that you’ve listed under your job posting, they’re less likely to submit. The men, they’ll still submit. Jenn DeWall: I think that that’s, you know, I think I’ve heard the, you know, the data that women need the 100%, but I don’t have a solution for that, but what you’re bringing out as a solution, a way to recognize that you might be adding in additional information that may either then, you know, discourage someone from applying because they feel like they don’t have that per that statistic. And yeah, women absolutely want to feel like, I think, you know, it brings up imposter syndrome, right? We’re fighting with other people’s own psychology or own beliefs or limiting beliefs, thoughts. So but I love that, you know, thinking, yeah, it’s a nuanced thing that people don’t, you know, it’s not part of their day to day that take it off the resume, make sure that it’s just really focused on the primary things, because I think also then you’re going to get someone that may be so attracted to that too, that they may then feel like the position is probably weighing heavier in that piece. And so that’s their draw. And then if you hire them based on that, then they would also, I guess be probably unhappy if they’re now thinking that that’s a big part of their role. Nora Burns: Oh my gosh. Yes. So you are also misleading the candidate. If you say, Oh, that’d be great. If you had AutoCAD experience and they get to use AutoCAD once a year and they’re like, right. So having those, the dream list will, will build bias into your system. And so the thing is if, if we back it up all the way to the job posting and we do some things to, to block bias there, it helps the entire funnel all the way through, because if we are only addressing it with the questions we’re asking the interview, we’re already too late. We have already banked bias in, right? Jenn DeWall: Because the number of candidates that we had that came from one pool or the other. So, so how we play with the wording on our ads and a lot of it is going to be trial and error. You’re going to play with how you write your ads. You’re going to change the words. And there’s all kinds of tools available in terms of words that tend to skew more masculine or feminine and, and making sure that you, you trade off, right. That you have an equal distribution across your job posting. So then we get through that and our job posting is out there. And then where do we put it? Right? So this has been an age-old problem with, if we only use one recruiting tool or we only go to one college to draw recruits from, for our management development program, then the demographic of our candidate looks like the demographic of that publication of that job, board of that college. So, and we all those of those in the audience who are recruiters who work in the talent acquisition space have worked hard on relationships with colleges and universities, so that they are top of mind for the professors there, for the job counselors there so that they get great space at the job fair. Right? And so they’ve worked really hard to cultivate those relationships. And now I’m saying, Oh, I need you to look at the demographics of that college or university, because we tend to cultivate those relationships either with our own Alma maters or with one that is like tried and tested through the, through the organization. Like some, somebody years ago in a leadership role had gone there. And that’s why we go there. Bias in Education Demographics Jenn DeWall: Yeah. I can tell you that at, by past company or at the first company, the first job that I took very heavily recruit, very heavily recruited at all, big 10 universities plus BYU like that is I could guarantee that everyone came from either that pathway and it, you know, it did come from a little bit of like, Hey, we’ve got this. And then like, someone’s going with their friends. But even when they asked me to go and recruit, I was going to big time, you know? So not only did all of my peers go to a different, big 10 school, I went to a big 10 school, shocking, but I, you know, got to travel to big 10 schools to try and recruit more people from big 10 schools. And yeah, we were missing out on a lot of people. And then you did get, and I just, I will always remember a vendor saying to me when I worked at that job, she’s like, everyone in this organization looks the same. And I’m like, you’re right. And even my husband, when we would be out shopping at my employee shop, my husband would be like, you all look the exact same. You dress the exact same. You wear the same things on trend. Jenn DeWall: I mean, there, it got so easy to then be able to say, I could watch a new intern or a new hire and say, I know exactly how far you’re going to get based on, you know, then you’re laying on a different thing. Like based on how you show up based on what, you know, I can tell you that it was very, I mean, I love my peers, but if I’m just speaking candid, like about that experience, it felt like I was working in the Greek system just in that. And you know, I loved all those peers, so I don’t want to make that sound like it was bad, but we don’t want all of the same people in a workplace. Nora Burns: And it didn’t come from a place in a various, right. It didn’t come from this. We are purposefully, actively. It comes from subtle things like people saying, Oh, they’re not a cultural fit. And I’m like, Ooh, okay. That phrase for me is just like, okay, we’re going to have like a 45-minute exploration. Because I want to know what that means to you. Because often cultural fit is simply a nice and HR, term kind of way to discriminate using bias. And so now if you’re going to say right, we had three interviews, they relate to each of them and we run with military precision, our, our operations, et cetera, it won’t work. And that’s, that’s not cultural fit. That’s there. They don’t right. Like the timeline doesn’t match. Right. So that’s one thing. But if it’s, well, you know, I think, I don’t think they’re gonna get along with the guys. I don’t think they’re going to fit in with, you know, we have a pretty rough and tumble crowd. And right. That’s bias. Jenn DeWall: And you hear that one too, like, Hey, they’re not strong enough. Or they’re not asked to be again. That is a point where you do feel like you’re doing someone a favor by not putting them into a situation that you think that would be bad for them, but bias. Oh my gosh. Like I feel like that is absolutely something that I would try to consider even in like volunteer positions. Like I’m, you know, a co president of a board. And it’s even if I think about the fit for our board, I wonder if I could be in the process, even adding in more bias Nora Burns: As humans. I mean, this is human nature. This is, this is all built out of our ability or design to protect ourselves, right? So where do we see danger and where do we see things that aren’t our norm, this starts when we’re babies, the people that we are around that when we are babies and we’re observing everything that’s happening and our little neural pathways are developing, we’re determining, what’s safe. Who’s taking care of me. Who’s providing food shelter, clothing, right? We don’t actually say that as a baby. We don’t have those language skills, but we’re aware of where is food, shelter, clothing, where is warmth coming from? And we are associating that food shelter, warmth, comfort from the faces that are surrounding us. And for most of us, the faces that are surrounding us look like ours. Right? So unless purposeful intent has been going to introduce babies to people who don’t look like us, sound like us, act like us, believe like us. Our very first neural pathways are being designed to say, this is what safety looks like. Right? So all of this is banked over time off of that. Nora Burns: Sorry, we can break it. We can break. So the, the, so the scary news is I grew up in a town of 711 people who all looked like me. And our greatest level of diversity in that town is that you were either Catholic or Lutheran. That’s right. Two religions worshiping the same God. That was our diversity in town. And we still managed to fight about that, just, you know. But all of the people surrounding me, looked like me. So if I don’t purposefully make effort to redesign some of those attachments and what safety looks like, I will continue to carry on through my life with that bias, banked and built in. So you can do things to break it. You have to be cognizant and aware of it. Jenn DeWall: Well, the only thing I was going to add, because I hadn’t ever heard, I have a lot of friends that are parents. And there was one friend that was talking about where they were going to send their son to daycare. And they made a very conscious choice to send him to a very diverse like daycare school. One where he is a minority almost because they, you know, with the belief that they’re like, he sees us, he sees our friends, he sees the exact same thing, like when we want him to know and experience different cultures different. And I love that they did that because I guarantee there are also some people that would say, well, I don’t know, like I, you you, you believe the opposite or something, but I think that’s really important to recognize that even in little ways, or I guess I am a part of a organization called Woman On. And one of the things that I love about that organization is the The host maximum employer will bring in people that I can tell you, they, they’re not represented in my friend circle. Even in terms of just my exposure to understanding some of these topics, I don’t have anyone that represents that. And that’s why I love it so much just because you do finally get to have that. So they’re out there, but we do have to be intentional with it. Be Aware of Your Own Bias Nora Burns: Okay. So you’ve just brought this up. Like what your friendship circle looks like. This is one of the exercises. When we do training programs around this that I ask participants to do. I want you to write down the list of your top five friends who are the five people in your world. You have their back, they have your back. They’re your closest five friends, absolute, closest people, to you. Right? And then I want you to describe them in terms of what’s their race, their religion, what’s their political leaning, what’s their socioeconomic condition? And then I want you to choose two or three other differentiators. Most people end up choosing differentiators that they know that they’re going to have some variety, right? They’re like they were raised rural or urban, right. Because they’re looking for something that will differentiate, but to go through and look at the people who are the five closest people to you in your life, and what do they look like? And that gives you your idea of what you’re, what you’re in-crowd looks like, right? What you were trusted to circle is on the, meet, the Fockers. This is like a weird pop culture, reference, little circle of trust. Right? right. So what is your circle of trust? What does it look like? And no judgment. It is what it is. This is data. This is nothing other than data. This is not it’s good or bad. It is what it is. Nora Burns: And then it’s for you to make a decision to say, am I comfortable with this as my circle? Or do I want my crowd to have a little bit more variation? But the thing is when you’re, when you’re growing that, when you’re growing that circle of trust, it does take time and effort, and it can’t be an unequal relationship, right? It can’t be, I need you to teach me what it’s like to be “blank”. Right? Whatever that diverse thing is, that thing that’s not like your crowd, that’s different go to workshop, right? Like read a book, kind of a thing. It has to come from a place of equality and that you are on equal footing. And some of these things are easier than others. For some people having diverse socioeconomic groups is really hard because of the value and the story that they put on money. And they cannot- people who have wealth sometimes struggle with being friends, with people who don’t, because they see themselves as caretakers and they put inequality, they put an unequal ranking on that. Right. and it goes the other way as well. And so making sure that they are equal relationships, it’s kind of like when someone says, Oh, but I had, like I grew up with a black nanny. Right, right. Grew up with a Hispanic nanny. Or I grew up with a white nanny or whatever the nanny situation was. And they’re like, Oh, but I had this person in my life. But at that time, that was not an equal relationship, a child and an adult who is in service to that child are not on equal footing. That’s very different. Right. So we want to build those relationships and that circle with people who are on equal footing, it’s a teammate versus a team member who reports to you kind of a thing. So, sorry you know I can talk about this forever. Jenn DeWall: Oh, I love this. I’m starting to think like this might have to turn into a part one and part two, I think there’s so much to unpack there. There’s so much to unpack and based on, I would say, I think I’m I don’t know. I feel like I’m fairly experienced and educated and I’m finding that I am, I already accepted that I am biased, but I am now realizing that I am biased in ways that I never even realized I had bias. I know the bias and the friend thing, but even in the bias and the language that you use or the time that you schedule an interview. And I just hope that more people that we can, you know, the shed some insight on them because we can all figure out how to then mitigate that or manage it in a way that doesn’t, you know, discriminate against anyone, but also disservice the organization because we deserve great team members and that we want that person. We don’t want to miss out on those people. So what happens after? So if you do all the work on the job posting, then we need to think about where we’re posting it to make sure that we’re actually, you know, attracting a diverse crowd. So we can’t just look at like one set of schools. We’ve got to open that up. What do we do after that? Ableism in the Application Process Nora Burns: Okay. So then when we get to the application process, now there are some actual applications, right. Online application where you need to fill out some information where we’re still in 2020 asking for some information, that’s really none of our business. And we don’t need that early in the process. And it’s everything. Jenn DeWall: Can we talk about that please, because I have multiple sclerosis. And the fact that that is a thing that they ask for on the application. Do you have multiple sclerosis like that? And especially how I asked you that that’s our most standard applications. And it’s insane because I think, you know, they’re asking you if you have a disability and how I live my life with multiple sclerosis right now, I do not perceive that I have any disabilities, but then asking me if I have, it is almost, it’s really offensive to me. Like it’s actually something I get very- see I interrupted you. Cause I’m so angry about that. Like, because I don’t see myself as this disability and you know, what, if there is a point in time that I am and do become disabled as a result of this, like I will deal with it then, but what, why do I have to like, say that to you now? I don’t get it. Nora Burns: It’s the- over time, and again, well-intentioned, that then took a different little turn. Because when Do you have questions about, do you have a disability? And what accommodation do you require an accommodation for disability? I was, and that language is, is elusive. It grew out of things having to do with the American Disabilities Act. So, right. So sometimes well-intentioned legislation led to us doing some things to try to make sure that we were accommodating people that in turn ended up, outing them for having something that we didn’t even need to know about. So part of that is the timing of when we need to know, and if we need, if we need to know when we need to know. Mainly there’s some organizations who really want to make sure that they are accommodating for anything that you might have, because they’re trying to not discriminate. And sometimes by asking the question and then HIPAA came in, so we generally don’t ask those questions, the health insurance portability and accountability act, sorry, give other people a hard time about using acronyms that other people might not know. And then I just did it. So our workplace culture thing, right. It’s and it, and it, and it excludes people who aren’t yet well informed on what all of our acronyms are that we think everybody knows. So anyhow so yes, disability is definitely one. I just had this conversation with a friend of mine who works in the space of food and how do we make sure that we’re not discriminating or killing any of our employees or people that we work with by the food that we present. And so there, the question came up, I was at what point in the process should I ask someone about if they have food allergies, because I want to make sure not to give them food that they are, they’re going to be offended by or allergic to. And it’s, and it’s so nuanced because it’s going to depend so much on how, how significant of an issue is it, right. Nora Burns: Am I- does it play a role in the interviewing process or does it not, right? Because if I never feed you as an employee, as a candidate or employee, we don’t provide any food. We don’t have a big treat wall that happens in some tech firms kind of a thing. If there’s never that issue, then I’s employee, employer really never need to know. Right. So, so it is, it is that’s nuanced in terms of when we need to know, but let me tell you one thing that does happen with disabilities in the hiring process that I see a lot, and that is super frustrating to me. And that is in organizations that don’t have- and again, let’s, let’s operate as if we’re in- we are post pandemic, right? Because we’re planning for the future where they’re looking for space to interview somebody and they don’t have a committed conference room on property and a neutral space on property. Nora Burns: And so they say, Oh, let’s just meet at the coffee shop. Let’s meet at a coffee shop near you. If I can get people to stop interviewing people at coffee shops, unless they’re actually applying to work at said coffee shop, who would see that as a huge win? As a huge win! Because I cannot sit at a coffee shop for more than an hour on any given day without watching, or, you know, professionally eavesdropping on a job interview. So there’s all kinds of issues here, but one of them is, think about the coffee shops that you go to the most often and how easy they are to navigate if you have crutches or a walker or wheelchair. And if you have a hearing, if you have hearing loss, right. If you have a sight deficiency, right? Like in any of those things, how complex that setting is for that group of people, right? Jenn DeWall: Even I would have guessed, like, even if we’re going in taking it, pass disability, that’s again, another great thing. But also like financially, like, cause then do they have to invest in something? I’m sorry, keep going. Bias in the Virtual Hiring Process Nora Burns: Oh yeah! We can do a whole thing. When I was going to work as the undercover employee, I would regularly text friends like, okay, I’m like $80 into buying the right clothes that I can wear as a uniform for a job. That’s paying me minimum wage. Like this math is upside down, right? So we’ve got all kinds of issues there. But, how, where we interview someone, Hey, we’ve got bias around the interviewing. But we also have outright discrimination that happens because we choose an area. Now let’s talk about it during the pandemic. Right? So where we are right now, and people are interviewing like this, right? Across zoom, across Skype, across Microsoft teams, they’re using video interviews. And what is happening is hiring teams are unaware again, of their own bias. And so most people who are interviewing via video don’t know like you and I do to look at the camera, even though your eye wants to look at the screen. Nora Burns: So if I’m talking to a group and I’m interviewing for a job, we as Americans at least put a lot of judgment around eye contact. And we tell stories around eye contact, both consciously and unconsciously. And I don’t know, they felt a little shifty to me. I don’t know why. And it’s because they were looking at all of the photos of all of the people who were on the screen instead of looking at the camera. And so this bias then comes into our hiring process without us really being aware of why we thought they were shifting or lying to us because we were applying some body language rules that we use in person, except we were putting them into play in video and they just don’t belong there. Right. So the same thing happens with all the things that are in our background, because we’re now interviewing people and they’re in their homes and we’ve got so much bias just pouring in because we hear the kid in the background, we hear, we hear the chainsaw outside the window, right? We hear, we hear the family background noise and the dog barking and the cat Meow. And the, you know, we hear all of those things that we as hiring managers normally wouldn’t have any access to. And that we’re looking at what the background is. And we’re telling a story based on the books that are there, based on the images that are there. Right? So some of the, some of the clients I’m working with in terms of how do we avoid bias during our virtual interviews, which PS I also expect will continue beyond pandemic because we’ve realized how much easier it is to schedule. Right? Is I think they will continue. And especially for job applicants who are actively working, talk about bias, we all are looking for candidates who are actively working because they’re somehow better than the ones who aren’t working. It’s a story that’s been around for years. Jenn DeWall: That is a great one! I think there’s, you know, people have, I want to break down some of these myths and maybe just get your perspective because I know that some people feel okay. I have to have at least two years at this company, even though I am miserable and crying all the time, because if I don’t stay here for two years, then I will not be able to get the next job or if I leave and then there’s a gap on my resume, then the next person won’t hire me. But now based on our conversation, like those are all bias. Okay. So tell me how your perspective on that. Nora Burns: Those are all stories that we, that we tell about, because that’s really what bias is. It’s really about the story that we tell based on the information that we have and based on our own experiences. Right. So I want to close the loop on this other I don’t want to forget that thought on the virtual interviewing. Well, to get past it, we are one of my clients. We’re actually sending interview kits out to candidates before they interview and the kit involves a drape, right? So it’s a backdrop and of those pressure cords (tension rod) whether it was pressure, things that you can put up in a hallway or in a, you know, in a closet and whatever, so that every candidate has the exact same backdrop. And it educates them on what to expect during a virtual interview. So, but it helps to pull some of the bias out because everybody, it’s not this background, it’s a basic black background. Everybody has the same background. So I’m not telling a story about what else is happening in the background. Okay. Jenn DeWall: So wait, I love that though. That’s a great, I, you know, I hadn’t even thought about how do you get ahead of bias in a virtual setting. So you are actually sending out kits. That is a great, great way. Nora Burns: And working with those hiring managers, to understand things about video that are different so that we’re not biasing somebody. And one of the biggest ones right now, a socioeconomic condition is one of the biggest biases that happens with virtual. Because you’re seeing inside somebody’s home and you’re making all kinds of story and judgment about that. But we tell stories, we all have our own, like, we have our things where we’re like, I will never hire somebody who… Right. I’ll never hire somebody who changes jobs every two years. I would never hire somebody who went to a community college. And then to a traditional college, I would never hire somebody who… Tell your story here. That grew out of some bad experience that they had. And now that they have sandblasted that so much, they told the story that everybody who is even a little bit like that is completely like that. I don’t remember. Do you have siblings? Jenn DeWall: I do. I have an older sister and a younger sister and a younger brother. Nora Burns: Excellent. So when you were in school, did you ever have a teacher say like, Oh, you’re so-and-so’s sibling. You ever have that? Because I did. Jenn DeWall: I did, yeah. I definitely had a reputation that preceded me, that people wanted to make assumptions about. I’ll leave it at that. Nora Burns: Right! And no matter if it’s good or bad. I I’m the youngest of nine. Youngest of nine. Now, here’s, what’s interesting. Those of you who are listening or watching this podcast, I want you to pay attention to the story that you just told in your head about me when I said that, because almost everybody tells a story about the youngest of the family. Right. and they’ll be like, Oh, you’re the baby. I’m like, no, actually that was the sister directly above me who refused to give up that role. Based on the psychology about the birth order kinds of studies and all that kind of stuff, I don’t fit the description. But regardless of that, I want, I want those of you who heard me say that to really take a minute, to think about what you told yourself about me with that one data point. And that’s exactly what it is. It is only one data point and it is the vast majority of who I am. You don’t know about, even though I’ve just openly shared a whole lot of information, but you’ve told a story and that, that that’s the bias that pops in, right. I would never hire a youngest of the family. I would never hire up. I would never hire up our biases showing up for those who got upset or angry so far and will get upset and angry with other things we talk about. When you get really upset or angry, you’ve got a hot button about something, that’s, that’s a sign that you have a bias, right? Learning to Empathize in the Hiring Process Nora Burns: So when I talk to people about using the term girls, instead of women, right? I’m like, Oh, let’s equal the footing. Let’s send a message that women are equally important by calling them women and not girls. And I’m assuming you’re not employing a bunch of eight year olds. And so and I’ll have people you can- I like say one of my super powers is reading the bubbles over people’s heads. When I speak, when I have an edit and event, I’ll be like, God, I just saw that you just got really angry that I said that that’s a sign of bias. Right. I don’t understand why that’s such a big deal. That’s a sign of bias. Right? So, so when we move through those that’s that, but years ago, many years ago, when I was still in my twenties, I would not interview somebody who showed up late to an interview. Nora Burns: I just wouldn’t even interview them. So you showed up five minutes, 10 minutes late to your interview. You’re like, thank you so much. Have a great day. Like just rude. And I did that up until, when? Jenn DeWall: I think until probably realizing that some people may not have a mode of transportation. Some people may not have. I guess that that would be my guess is recognizing more of the background of the circumstance that someone may be facing to be able to get there. Am I missing the mark? Nora Burns: That all happened. But it all happened because I was late to an interview. I was like, Oh, wait, life does sometimes intervene when you’re trying to get somewhere on time. Right? Like sometimes everything does go wrong. And I had, I had an interview and I already had three job offers. I was doing a week long interviewing process. I was moving back to the Midwest to be closer to my family, as my parents were growing older and I wanted to be more available. So I had spent a week just interviewing all over Wisconsin and Illinois. And I had three job offers already on the table. So I didn’t need this interview. But everything went wrong that morning. Like everything went wrong from blowing a fuse, to the dog running away, like just everything went wrong. And I remember thinking I feel like I might be being filmed. Someone is watching how I navigate all of these obstacles. And I drove like a crazy woman to the interview, but I called and said, I’m going to be late and rescheduled it. And it was, we had one thing after another happen. Nora Burns: And I realized that I wouldn’t have interviewed me. I would have re I would have removed me from the hiring process. If I was on the other side of that decision table, and I’m incredibly thankful that that hiring manager did not have the same bias that I did. Because I truly had legitimate explanation. And all of that kind of stuff is lifted happen. Now that hiring manager, when I showed up late for the second time, I said, could I, will you please carve out some time for me? I will wait as long as you, as long as you need me to wait until you’ve got an opening in your schedule. And that’s what I did. I worked at the company for four years. And I would not have hired me. And I was I without question the right hire for that company at that time. I was absolutely the right person in that exact role. It worked out beautifully. Nora Burns: Now they did what I recommend other people do. When somebody shows up late to an interview, they interviewed me three times. They made sure it wasn’t a pattern. They made sure that I could in fact show for job interview on time the second and the third time. Right. So we knew that wasn’t the issue. But yeah, I had that bias until it was broken because I finally had empathy around the scenario and went, Oh wait, that does happen. How do I find out what the real story is? Because you know, but yeah. So our biases and we are all these stories that we built that say, Oh, I knew this one person at one time who did that one thing. And you remind me of that, right. Jenn DeWall: Or if you have a wrinkled shirt or because you sat down in your car and then it got a line or if you have that. So because there are a lot of very superficial, like you were late. So then I’m going to assume you’re always late and you’ll never be reliable. You have a wrinkle on your shirt so that you’re unkempt and messy and you’re not that’s so yeah, those stories just blow up off of one small piece of data. Yeah. And I’ve had people I’ve had hiring managers say, Oh yeah, I walk, I always walk candidates out to their car after the interview, I was like, huh, why do you do that? Because I want to see the condition of their car. But like, no, don’t do that. Anybody listening or watching, please, please do not do that. I hope nobody just said, Oh, that’s a really good idea.   Nora Burns: Right. Because unless you’re hiring me to be a driver and that’s the vehicle I’m going to be using. It has no actual merit and relationship to the hiring process. Because let’s talk about the biases built into that pumping, right, where we’re at the, we haven’t had to go to the application. This is absolutely older application. We did, we got a circled over. So, so we get on our application even even years ago, I’ve been saying to people, stop putting social security number, like stop asking people for their social security number on the application. It is irrelevant at that particular point. And if you know how to read social security numbers, you know, if somebody was actually a natural born citizen, you know what part of the country they were born in, all of that kind of thing. Not even get us started on the issues of identity theft, right? So unless you’re being really secure with all that information and we can talk to our friend, John Sileo about that because he is the expert in that. Reduce Bias in the Application Process Nora Burns: But other than identity theft issues, what’s the year you graduated high school or college? Who cares? Doesn’t matter, it’s not relevant. Right. And it’s going to show up. We can get that when we need to verify that information and verify that they have the degree that they said they do. But we don’t need it that early in the process. And what I actually recommend is that you have somebody who’s your, your go-between, right? So your HR person or somebody who is acting in that role, who actually transitions the information on applications and resumes to make them blind applications and resumes, there’s also software that can help you do this, that strips out all of the information, including name, including your name, your address. You know, if you have information on where somebody went to school and what year they graduated, because all of those things bank in bias. Nora Burns: So if you, as the hiring manager only get my actual skills displayed to you, you know, that I’ve experienced with, we talked about AutoCAD earlier, right? So you I’ve experienced with AutoCAD and this software and that software, like you have that information. You don’t need to know my age and my name, all of those things create bias. I can tell you that as the other undercover candidate, there were specific roles that if I submitted an application under a gender neutral name I had a much better chance of somebody calling me if I said Sally, and I said, Jan, those are different. If I say, Pat, I’m going to get a lot more traction, right. Because they don’t know if I’m a man or a woman. And I’ve shown up for interviews as the undercover candidate where they were clearly surprised as to who showed up because they were expecting Sam. Then I say, Oh yeah, it’s, it’s Samantha. I’ve always, I go by Sam. Right? Nora Burns: So, so we can strip that out in the application process and we can have blind resume and an application. I can tell you right now, the organizations where I’ve put this into place, I’ve gotten some significant pushback, right? So, so there’s hiring managers who like, no, I need that information. And that’s the story that they’re telling because for years and years, and years and years we’ve had access to the information and we actually don’t need it in order to make a hiring decision. You don’t need to know if I’m a man or a woman. You’re ultimately going to figure that out when I show up for an interview, but let’s get the funnel, let’s get as much bias as we can out of that initial funnel in order to get us there. Jenn DeWall: I love that. So really the call to action here is where can you strip out these points that really have no bearing on whether that candidate will be a good fit for the job? So the year of graduation, the name, even if you need them to have a degree, you can just say degree in blank. You don’t have to say what university and also removing the address or contact information. So many great partners, but one of the things we were talking about too, you had mentioned a structured interview. So like when you shift from the application, how does the interview process need to look to make sure that we’re minimizing bias? Reducing Bias in Interview Questions Nora Burns: So we’re going to design interview questions that meet the core key competencies and the work experience or the, the skills that somebody needs to do the job. And we’re going to design those based on that job. And we’re going to ask everybody the same questions. We’re going to ask some follow-up questions that allow you to tell more of your story. And as soon as I say, I want, I want you to do structured interviews in order to remove bias. I’m telling you off in the distance, I just heard like 15 hiring managers groan. Because hiring managers are, will really push back on this idea, especially if it is new to your organization, because they are like, Oh, I want to have the conversation. I want you to have a conversation, but I want you to have some structure around it. And I want to make sure that we’re asking everybody the same questions so that we can compare the same information across candidates. Nora Burns: Now there’s lots of layers to this. And we could, and I, I do spend hours training how you design a process like this and in helping organizations to do just that. But I want to ask a question like when I’m asking about AutoCAD experience and you’re describing your AutoCAD experience and some of the things that you’ve designed and probably giving me some workplace work samples. I’m going to compare the answer between candidate A and candidate B. I’m going to, I’m going to compare answers per question and then do appropriate ratings that way. Not going this entire candidate, that entire candidate. I want to say, I want to go piecemeal. I want to say, let’s talk about OCAD experience and our first question having to do with AutoCAD experience. What came out with candidate 1, candidate A or came up with candidate B, right? Nora Burns: If I compare answer to answer, I am more likely and rating that I gave in the interview at the time, which is also important. We’re going to do a rating scale that we’re going to do in the moment instead of afterwards. And I compare them question to question. I strip out some of the bias that happens when I compare an entire candidate to an entire candidate. I say, Oh, I really prefer Bob over Jenn We get into the, I don’t know why. Right? The bias elements of it. Let’s talk about that first question. And you can only do that if you have structured interview and you’re asking everybody about the same things. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. And that’s so interesting that people are reluctant, you know. And I can see it because it feels like maybe you’re taking away of the organic fun, getting to know you seeing behind the curtain. But yeah, you’re comparing then apples to oranges. You’re not comparing the same data points because they’re two entirely different conversations that may have some similarities. But depending on whatever question you ask, you may be highlighting something in someone else. That’s I think you were the one that shared that with me, but like in thinking about what questions and how they might highlight something of someone else. And then if you don’t ask it to someone else, then they don’t look as great. Nora Burns: Yeah. We stumbled upon it with the one candidate. One of the, one of the biggest things with that, with the unstructured with unstructured interviews is one, a lack of preparedness. The number of times I sat in front of somebody and they were like- one woman in particular. I just, Whoa. I just pictured her in my brain with like, huh, let’s see, what should I ask you? And I thought, I spent like four hours preparing for this interview. And you haven’t figured out what you want to ask. Like so A- the level of preparedness, but also in terms of making sure that bias isn’t because then we’re like, I don’t know, likeability comes in. Right. We just like, I don’t know. I just connected with them because they look like you talk, like you act like you and believe like you and they gave you examples that are totally like you. Jenn DeWall: What are the questions you hate? Because I know we talked about this too. What are the questions that you hate in the interview process. Nora Burns: Things that would, it would make me super happy if people would stop asking these questions. Right. So I guess I would, if, truly this might be what goes on my tombstone right. Like she got people to stop asking. What’s your greatest strength. What’s your greatest weakness? Like if you could stop asking, what’s your greatest strength, what’s your greatest weakness. I would be so happy. I’d be so happy. But the reason I dislike that question so much is you never get any good information. Like nobody has ever been like, well, you know what? I embezzled from my last company. Nobody’s gonna give you like something that’s going to be discernible in terms of a candidate. Jenn DeWall: No. And we all know the weakness answer is I’m a perfectionist. And so I might find myself working too hard. Like we know how to position that and do our own PR spin to an extent to make it that weakness look like a strength. Nora Burns: Yeah. There’s not a book, a blog, a podcast, a anything having to do with jobs, interview preparation that doesn’t tell you to take a strength and wrap it up like it’s a weakness, right? So it’s a waste of a job interview because one of the biases we have is a limited amount of time. So if we spend time and the thing I’m like hiring candidates say, Oh, five minutes into the interview. I knew that they were my person bias. That’s where that came from. Right? Because five minutes into an interview, You don’t know that they’re your person, five minutes into her interview. All you have is the fact they look like you talk like you act like you believe like you remind you of somebody that you really, really liked or didn’t. right? Nora Burns: So if we spend an hour with each job candidate and we need to spend an hour with each gut job candidate, because there’s a benefit to time, but the other is, if I’m asking greatest strength, greatest weakness, that’s a five to 10 minute question out of only an hour. That’s a big percentage. Right? So we’ve just wasted that time. So that one’s just a, please let’s just stop asking that question. The only basis that that question really has is if you were new to interviewing and you need to get your feet under you and you need to feel comfortable in the interview, that’s the only basis it has. But it’s, it’s really a throw away trash question, but specifically to bias. What’s the most recent book you’ve read? Nora Burns: I mean, What to Expect When You’re Expecting? Jenn DeWall: No, I had The Aligned Receiver right there. Nora Burns: Right, right. But, but imagine when you’re asking that question, what’s the most recent book you’ve read. Right? We’ve got, what if I say, What to Expect When You’re Expecting, what if I say Understanding and Overcoming the Symptoms of MS. What if I say the Bible or the Quran? There’s that, that question is rife with bias. And when I talk to hiring managers and say, why is this question on your list? They’ll say, well, I want to make sure that they’re well-read. I want to make sure they’re continuous learner. I want great. You want to make sure that they’re up to speed in their industry, in their area of expertise. So there’s a better question. There’s a question asked to say, what is the most recent periodical you’ve read that has to do with XYZ industry and how did it really stand out to you? Right. But steer it very specifically to be work-related I’ve had authors say, but I want to know if they’re going to come and work for me. I want to know if they’ve read my book. I’m like, I have to read your whole book before I apply to work for you. You can make that something that you’re going to have me do, but, but maybe I don’t have to read the entire book right before I apply. Nora Burns: Right? So what’s the most recent, but what do you do for fun? What do you do for fun? Gets us into all kinds of dangerous territory. And its only purpose is bias. And I’ll have hiring managers say, but I’m hiring, hiring the whole person. I need to understand more about them. Like I’m not hiring the person for what they do on Saturday night and on Sunday morning. Or on Sunday, Saturday morning. Right? Like that’s can they do the job? Right? And so it turns out I don’t need to be friends with everybody that works with me. Right. They need to be friendly. They don’t need to be friends. And so they don’t have to be the person who’s- and I’ve had hiring managers say, I just don’t get the impression that there’s somebody who would go to the bar with us and shoot down shots afterwards. Nora Burns: And I’m like, yeah, I’m going to go ahead and go with that person who has that particular religion probably isn’t going to do that. The recovered alcoholic, probably isn’t going to do that. Right. The right. All of, all of these things, the person who has three kids at home, probably isn’t going to do that. Right. That’s bias. And that’s so questions having to do with, what do you do for fun? What do you do with your free time? All of those types of things are just rife with bias and get us into a discriminatory path. If we make a decision based on them. Jenn DeWall: mind blown, what are safe questions? I mean, can you ask questions? Like what how do you see yourself? You know, as a individual or as a member of a team? Like what role do you play? Can you ask that? Nora Burns: Yeah, I have questions about, I thought you were going to different. I thought you were going to ask me what I wanted to do in three years or how I saw myself in three years. I’m just going to go ahead and guess that in 2017, nobody said I was going to be in the middle of a pandemic, working from home and trying to figure out how to manage all of that. I didn’t know in March what this was going to look like, right? Like in March I fostered two dogs because I was going to be home for two to three months. It was so adorable that I wasn’t naive about this. Nora Burns: So, so yeah, so the three to five question years, I like to ask questions about how people see themselves in team dynamics and what role. So I actually often ask about projects that they’ve done in a team. Like have you worked in an organization that really does team involvement and cross-functional team involvement. And tell me about it, like tell me about that project and then let’s explore what was your job? And then pay attention to things like the language that people use because it tells me their own bias about if it’s very, “I” language or very “We” language. And then I explore that. I also when we do panel interviews or team interviews to have a variety of different people in the room asking questions, I really want you to pay attention to who asked the question and who they direct the answer to. So this is one way to talk through bias in a hiring process. I’ve been the person who asks a highly technical question about the applicant’s background and skills and they will then turn to a man in the room to answer the question. And then we talk about that. Because I just, I think we need to talk about these things. So actually say like, explain how is it that when I asked the question, you decided to tell Chuck the answer? And we talk it through because they probably weren’t even cognizant and aware of what they were doing. But it tells me something about their built-in biases that we need to explore. How can The Leadership Experts Help You? Jenn DeWall: Right before you bring them into the team. I mean, Oh my gosh, this is just been how, okay. So I know that we have to wrap up before we do create the longest podcast of all time. How do you work with organizations and how can people reach out and hire you? Like how can you help them? Because you’ve just got so many great insights, things that I didn’t know. So how can people, you know, I guess how do people get in touch with you? What do you do with them, Nora? Nora Burns: What do I do with them? So we I do a couple of things like training programs on, on helping people to understand unconscious bias and how it’s impacting their team. For me, my funnel is very narrow on that. Right? Cause you can find all kinds of speakers who will talk about unconscious bias as the whole. Mine is very specifically directed towards that employee and candidate experience, right? How is it impacting there. Right? There’s people who talk on unconscious bias as it affects our medical decisions, as we right, who have all that kinds of knowledge, mine is specifically on this hiring and employee experience. So we do training around it, do consulting around it, design people’s hiring organizations, hiring practices to try to strip out some of the bias and help people through that AB testing for their, for their job, posting those types of things. They can reach me at www.theleadershipexperts.com. So a website that I desperately need to update. And you would think I would have had time to do that, but the last couple of months, but theleadershipexperts.com. My email is nora@theleadershipexperts.com. There is an S experts because as it turns out, there’s not just one. And so they can reach me there. They can reach me also through Twitter, although not as regularly. And on Instagram, @thenoraburns. But best way to reach out or go to our website, fill out the contact us form, and let’s have a conversation about how we can help you to break down some of the biases that are impacting your ability to hire top talent. Jenn DeWall: Yes, they need, they need to reach out to you because I, I can only imagine, you know, the benefits of just having a better well-rounded diverse workforce, you know, just the success, the team, the feeling that you are seeing. I mean, there’s so many benefits, but then obviously like you could also avoid some lawsuits by understanding things that might be, you know, there, but I mean, Nora, thank you so much for just sharing, you know, an extended amount of time with us. I, I’m still trying to process everything that you shared, and I just truly appreciate you taking the time to share that with our audience. I know so many people are going to benefit from what you’ve shared today.   Nora Burns: Thank you. I hope so. I hope we can do a couple of little things. One of the biggest things with unconscious bias is just hearing about it once. Reading one book, reading one article, having one training session, it, it helps, but it is the first step. It’s not the last one. It is an ongoing process because you’ve got a whole life of bias that has built up over time.   Jenn DeWall: Yes. Well, thank you so much, Nora. You guys have to reach out to her at The Leadership Experts, and I hope to have you back on the podcast sometime soon. Nora Burns: Excellent. Thank you so much for your time and hopefully it’s been helpful and have a fantastic rest of your day. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. If you enjoy this episode or if you know someone that maybe really could benefit from understanding where there could potentially be biased in their process, share this with them. But of course, if you liked it, please reach out and give us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service until next time.   The post How to Overcome Bias in the Hiring Process with Leadership Expert, Nora Burns appeared first on Crestcom International.

The Power of Because with Marketing Expert Gerry O’Brion Jenn DeWall: Hi, everyone, Jenn DeWall here. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I sat down and talked with Gerry O’Brion. Let me tell you what this conversation is going to be about. Here’s the pitch- today, we’re going to learn a framework of influence that reveals how to become the number one choice, even in a crowded market. It’s something that we all need to figure out how to do because we know that there’s always going to be an increase in competition, but you’re going to learn from Gerry about the “Power of Because.” After years as an executive with billion-dollar brands, Gerry O’Brion is now a professional speaker and author. His Power of Because framework has helped tens of thousands of CEOs, business owners, and sales teams stand out from the sea of sameness and grow their sales. Gerry began his career in marketing at Proctor & Gamble and then was an executive for Coors Light, Quiznos, and Red Robin. He has his MBA from the University of Michigan, and he also spent eight years serving in the military. Enjoy our conversation as Gerry and I talk about the importance and Power of Because. Meet Marketing Expert and Professional Speaker, Gerry O’Brion Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone, Thank you so much for joining us on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I am here today with Gerry O’Brion, who is a marketing expert and professional speaker. But I don’t want to do all the talking. So Gerry, tell us who you are and how do you just become a professional speaker? How does that happen? Gerry O’Brion: Oh my gosh, such a good question. I, you know, it’s funny, I get asked that question all the time. So I am a professional speaker. I’ve been doing this for about a decade. Before that, I was a corporate marketing executive. So I started out at Proctor & Gamble and moved on to become the brand manager of Coors Light, making TV ads that, you know, obviously millions of millions of people have seen. I was the VP of marketing at Red Robin and Quiznos. And ten years ago, I just said, you know what? I want to do something on my own with my own brain, my own computer, my own content, and control my own life, my own minutes, and hours of my days. And honestly, it was the hardest career journey I’ve ever been on and also the most valuable because now I’ve created my own thing, and CEOs and companies, executives all over the globe implement my framework of influence in their businesses to help them sell more attract more customers, be more successful, be more profitable. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I, you know, there are so many questions that I want to ask. I’m going to-, so I’ve got a question that you may not be expecting, but you’ve just listed off some of the biggest brands that I know that have been a part of my life at different stages. Right? What were the perks that you gained? What were the perks that you gained by working for these? I just have to ask. That’s more of a selfish thing. I know we’re here to talk about influence, but I just want to ask, what type of perks do you have when you work for such high-level brands? Gerry O’Brion: Well, you know, the big perks, you know, are with a brand like Coors because you’re working in the beer industry. That’s a lot about image and events and things like that. I mean, I’m not a big— honestly— a big football watcher. I mean, I know about the sport, but I have been to the Super Bowl, which is ironic because I’m not a big football guy. All my buddies who are super into football are like, dude, you’re going to the Super Bowl. That doesn’t seem fair reading and watch football. But I was at the Super Bowl because I was running a big event that was at the Super Bowl, partnered with Maxim magazine. So it was me and the editor of Maxim magazine, running a big event at the Super Bowl, which is just, you know, funny things. I threw a lot of big parties in Vegas and worked with a lot of celebrities Jesse James and Kid Rock. And by the way, Kid Rock is amazing. He’s a solid dude, but you know, big things like that. And you know, but honestly, you’re, it’s still a really, really hard, hard job. And, but there are these funny perks that weren’t that valuable to me, but for the right person, they would be amazing. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you’re like, Well- I mean, I love that you got to meet Kid Rock and you’re like, he’s a great guy, but that probably wasn’t what you set out to do, right. To meet him. But it’s fun. You know, I think sometimes when we have podcasts, we sometimes get caught up in the, what do you do? How do you do it? Instead of talking about, we all have fun aspects of our jobs and, or the careers that we’ve had. And we’re going to be talking about the expertise that you’ve obviously gained throughout your career, and then as well as your career today as a speaker, working with CEOs and large organizations, but it’s always fun to talk about, you know, the perks. I wish I could have gotten Super Bowl, and I, too, am not that greatest football fan. I just know enough to, I don’t know, play fantasy football, which I’ve done for two years. And it’s just really out of luck that I’ve somehow gotten second place in my fantasy football league. Even though I tell you until this year, I didn’t the difference between a wide receiver and a running back. And I think I finally got it. Marketing, Disruption and Tiger Woods Jenn DeWall: So one of the things that I know that you work with organizations on is navigating disruption, which we know that in this climate if you haven’t been disrupted by, you know, whether it’s the economy, whether it’s COVID, whether it’s just a different threats to your business, you’re likely not doing business. Everyone has faced disruption this year. Tell me a little bit about how you work with organizations around disruption and why that’s something you maybe enjoy. Gerry O’Brion: I think it’s important to understand the nature of disruption to an organization. And what I mean is know, I speak to you know, let’s say 10,000 CEOs a year, and when those CEOs see something inspirational or unique or something they haven’t heard before, the first thing they do is they run back to their executive team, and they say, Oh, we’ve got to do this work. I want to work on this. And that rolls out to the organization. Well, a lot of times, organizations are like, Oh no, another new idea. Oh no, he’s got another idea. Jenn DeWall: I’ve been that employee sometimes. Gerry O’Brion: They disrupt the organization when the CEO or the executive team is simply trying to say, I’ve got ideas about how we can be higher, performing better, more successful into the future. And the key for the CEO or the executive team is to bring those employees along on the journey in a way that they understand it, that they get it, they’re excited to do it. So I show in my keynote, this, this graph, and you won’t be able to find it anywhere on the internet because it’s, it’s a proprietary graph that I show, but it’s based on publicly available data from Tiger Woods winning rate on the PGA tournament. Perfect. All right. So one story I tell my audiences is, in fact, the most photographed slide. And I’m going to visually since on a podcast, tell you the example, but Tiger Woods famous golfer at age 21 was the first year he ever played on the PGA tournament. And he won that year 25% of all of the PGA PGA tournaments that he entered at 21 years old, winning at that age. No one had ever won at his age before, but by two years later, he was only winning 5% of the tournament. So I asked my audiences, why do you think? And a lot of people know at age 23, Tiger Woods did something remarkable. He changed his swing. Now think about this. He’s 23 years old. He’s been golfing since he was three. He’s been practicing his swing the same way for 20 years. Golfing like no one had ever golfed before. And he said you know what? I think if I change my swing, I can win even more. But it requires you to get messy, to do something you’re uncomfortable with, to do things in a new way. The same thing that we’ve been forced to do during COVID. We get things thrown at us, disruptions thrown at us, CEOs, executives, companies, the economy, new kinds of employees, key employee leaves. There are millions of things that happen in your companies that disrupt what you thought was going to happen. And your ability to succeed over time is directly related to your ability to navigate disruption. So he says, you know what, I’m going to change my swing, even though that means I’m going to be messy. And in the short term, I’m going to win less. I think over the long-term, I’m going to be more effective. By two years later, he was winning 45% of the tournaments that he entered. Jenn DeWall: He went from 25% to a drop to five%, and then at 45%? Yes, moved it up to 45%. So he came out at age 21, he’s winning 25%. He changes the swing. It gets messy. And two years later, he’s winning 45% of the time. I mean, he’s, this is what makes you a legend, right? And then he plateaued like a lot of businesses. He won like 25% every year for three years. Then he said, you know what? No. And he changed the swing again. In 2004, he changed his swing again. And by 2008, he was winning 68% of the tournaments that he entered. Navigating Disruption Gerry O’Brion: And this is what’s possible only if you can navigate disruption. Well, and in fact, I’ve been working with a lot of clients during COVID— one keynote I did was for restaurant owners. I interviewed three, or maybe it was four restaurant owners whose business is up 20 to 30% during COVID because they didn’t put their heads in the sand. They doubled down, and they listened to their customers. They listened to what the needs were out there. And they navigated their businesses.  I work with a big veterinary distributor, and the distributor said some veterinary clinics are up dramatically. They have taken this opportunity and, and really made their business hunt. And others are just being decimated. And I said, what’s the difference? And he said, well, it turns out a lot of veterinarians don’t really like people that much. They really like animals. Right? Which makes sense. And the people come in, and he called them Dr. Google. So the people come in with their animals, and they’re like Dr. Google, Oh, I think this is the problem. I think this is the problem. I think that’s the problem, whatever. And he’s like, now people are dropping off their animal. The animal comes in; everything is COVID friendly. The parents don’t come in with the animal. So the doctor just does what the doctor does with the animal, not with the people. And he doesn’t have. There’s no Dr. Google effect anymore. And they can increase the throughput of animals, and they’ve extended their hours, and they’ve made it easier, added on weekend hours and their businesses is way, way up for those who have navigated it effectively. So we need to be adept at changing in order to grow our businesses. So that’s just an important thing. But it’s okay if you’re messy in the short term, if the zoom doesn’t work or if the whatever, or if you’re struggling with, how do we stay connected to our customers in a virtual environment, it’s okay if it’s messy, it’s supposed to be messy. That’s the way it goes. When things get disrupted, Growth is Messy Jenn DeWall: That is a very, just, I think a piece of advice that everyone needs to hear all of the time, but we don’t often do it. But I think the way that you shared the story of Tiger, someone that I can’t even picture. You know, even in your, obviously a big, much bigger speaker than me, but like, I can even take the fraction of the feedback that I get when I do something great or do something bad, how I hear about it. And it’s, it’s hard. But if you take someone that really is in the public eye, that has created a lot of success to then say, you know what? People might say things, or I may not win as much, or, you know, insert whatever that is. That could be the barrier to why I don’t change, but he still changed. And he went and weathered that disruption. I love that story. And just talking about that, because I think people really do forget that it is okay to be messy as your point. So thank you for sharing that because I think I also need that reminder. Any growth is worth being, you know, you gotta be a little bit messy. You’ve got to embrace the change, and you know what comes with it? Gerry O’Brion: You have the gift right now of external disruption that everyone is going through at the same time. What you see with companies is there’s a lot of pushback to change many times. And so CEOs will say, Oh, we’re gonna change this. We’re gonna do that. And their teams will push back on them. And the biggest pushback is when the company’s already doing well. They’re like, no! We’re already performing well. Why would you want to change this? And then they get messy in the short-term, performance goes down. And then the team says, see, I told you this was not a good idea, right? Well, now, we’re being forced through disruption. You know, someone could have said to Tiger Woods. See, I told you, you shouldn’t change your swing. You’re a mess. But what the, what the smart executives and smart business owners are looking for is what’s on the other side of the mess. And it’s sometimes you have to lead your people through that. And that’s the hard part. Now we’re being given the gift of, we all have to navigate this disruption, and we’re all in it together. So whatever you do, people are forgiving of it. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. And that’s, that is also a really nice thing to know that people have more empathy than what they ever had for. The phrase that I just love too, because I live, you know, everyone lives on Zoom is “tech happens.”  I was like,  I dunno, tech happens. It’s always going to happen, and it’s just going to continue to happen. And that’s okay. Like, it doesn’t mean what someone is talking about is, you know, not worth listening to just because the tech hap like there are so many things that happen outside of someone’s control. And I, I love that method of 2020, which is truly to be more empathetic for messiness. Like we don’t have to be perfect all the time. And as long as we’re still trying our best there, or if you’re trying, you know, for a CEO sitting in that chair, trying to think about how do I keep this business afloat? How do I make sure that my employees have their paycheck? I’m going to take a risk that someone in the meeting is going to be, you know, just to what you said, like I told you, so it wasn’t gonna work, but they still are doing that. And I think I love this message. I mean, I facilitated a class last week, and I think so many people are very accustomed to being told no. Or saying what won’t work right now because of so many things that are outside of their control, but yet there’s still people that are, you know, it’s resilience, and they’re still figuring it out. And that can be a really lonely place because there are a lot of critics that will just be throwing their popcorn at you as you’re trying to do something bigger. And it’s okay. We can’t listen to the critics because that’s likely going to push you in the wrong direction or closer to shuttering your doors. So when you work with organizations out of curiosity, how do you help them? I know one of the things you really help organizations do is influence, and you can help them navigate disruption. But what are some of the things that you do? Marketing and the Framework of Influence Gerry O’Brion: Yeah. At the most basic level, mostly I help companies understand how to influence customers, to buy from them versus all the other options out there. I mean, consumers, customers, clients today have a lot of options, and they can either buy from you or buy from one of your competitors or not spend the money at all. And I help companies understand how to create this framework of influence to become the number one choice in a really crowded, competitive market. A lot of people work in very commoditized markets. How do you get somebody to pick you? If you largely look a lot the same as all your competitors? And that’s the framework of influence that I teach. The Four Questions Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s something that I think everyone can relate to. Like, it doesn’t matter what business you’re in. I feel like there are so many more players in any line of business than there ever was before. And just the ability to quickly enter the market and cause that disruption, we just need to be more agile. So I think that what you offer is just so essential to be able to maintain, sustain, and continue to blossom. So one of the things that you had mentioned, you know, cause you, you help people essentially, how would I say this? Get noticed, wanted by, you know, it’s what we all want. We want someone. If we’re selling a product or service, we obviously want people to come to us to trust us, to love us. So that means that we have to have influence. And one of the things that you talked about that you would teach people are four questions about influence. Can we just go? I, you know, I don’t know them, so I’m so excited to learn them. What are the four questions? And we can just start with the first one. Gerry O’Brion: Yeah. The four- well, before we get to that, let me just tell you a story of how this kind of all got started for me. So in the early two-thousands, I left my job first job at Proctor & Gamble. And I moved to Colorado to work for Coors brewing company. And a couple of weeks after I got to Coors, there was a big marketing department offsite, right. So we’re all leaving the office building to go to a hotel 10 minutes away. And just to talk about marketing for the whole day. So I’m leaving the office building. I’m walking out next to the chief marketing officer. Now, this is my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss, the head of the whole marketing department. And we’re walking out, and he says, Oh Gerry, Hey, why don’t you just ride over there with me? And I’m thinking, yeah, great opportunity to know the Chief Marketing Officer. Right? And then we’re walking out to his car. It’s this big, long, super sleek brand new Mercedes-Benz, and I’m thinking, Ooh, successful. And then it occurs to me. I’ve got 10 minutes in the car with the Chief Marketing Officer. I better ask him a really smart question. So I look smart. So I’m thinking I’m ticking through the questions in my mind. I think what’s the most important marketing question of all? And he pulls out. And so I turned to him, and I say Lee, why is it that a consumer chooses to buy one beer versus another beer? And I’m thinking, this guy is about to give me a 10-minute lesson on how people choose and how we as marketers influence people to choose us versus them. And instead, he turns to me, and he says, well, geez, Gerry, if I knew the answer to that question, we’d all be rich. Jenn DeWall: Okay. Gerry O’Brion: And I’m thinking, well, you appear to be rich. And you’re the head of marketing for a $4 billion beer company with ten beer brands under one roof. And you don’t know the answer to the question of how we influence people to buy this versus that? I spent the rest of my career learning, honing, creating this framework of influence that shows people how people choose and how do we influence them to buy. And that’s kind of how the whole thing started. And it applies regardless if your business is B to C, B to B, professional services, like an attorney or a dentist or anything, restaurant owner, anything in between how we influence people is the same. And if we understand how it works, then we’re off to the races and being able to influence people. So four questions, and we can go through them one by one. Jenn DeWall: I love that story, by the way. I mean, I think first and foremost, I can relate to those moments when we are earlier on our career, or maybe we’re just exposed to someone that’s at that like high, high, high level. And you’re, you know, we want to be smart. We want to show people like, and there’s a good, there’s a great reason why you hired me. Look at how great I am. But then I just love that. Like, he also was very playful of like, Hey, we’re all still trying to figure this out. You know, that’s, I think, what business is. You can’t ever just assume that you’ve got the formula, and it’s always going to stay the same, and you can just continue to replicate it without any adaptations. So I think that’s a great story to talk about influence, but yeah, let’s go through them. Gerry O’Brion: So I do have the formula, and I’m about to reveal it. Jenn DeWall: Oh, all right. I’m ready. I’m ready. Question#1  – Who Are You Influencing? Gerry O’Brion: So there are four questions. Question one seems really super simple, but it’s who are you influencing? Number one, you have to really understand. And one of the big mistakes that small companies and large make is that they try to be relevant to everyone. They try to market to everyone. The reason that we don’t get as many referrals as we want is because we’ve made it too hard for people to know what to say on our behalf and who to say it to. There’s a auto repair shop in Denver that I- I used to drive a Volkswagen. I took my Volkswagen in there and I started to get to know the owner. And it was this tiny little, two-bay auto repair shop. And I was asking him about his business. He said, well when I first opened up, I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I was a certified auto mechanic. So I leased this two bay auto repair shop. I opened up and it’s called Sixth Avenue Auto. And he had a big sign out front that said we service imports and domestics. Yep. That’s all of them. That’s, that’s, that’s everybody right? And he said, well, I didn’t want to limit myself because I wanted to be the biggest, most successful business possible. Nobody came in, but he thought that everyone within three miles around would just come in to get their car fixed there and nobody was coming in. So he put out door hangers all within three miles around said, come on in and get a a $20 oil change at Sixth Avenue Auto. People flooded in and nobody came back, his business wasn’t doing well. And so he said, you know what? I realized? I said, what? He goes, well, when all those people came in, it seemed like a lot of them drove Audis & Volkswagens. I’m like, Oh, he goes, so I changed my website to say, we specialize now to even hoax wagon. I’m like, Oh, what happened? He goes, well, people didn’t come in from three miles around. People started coming in from all over Denver. And he said, you know why? I’m like, why now he’s got the insight. Right? I said, why? He said, well, because people don’t want to just go anywhere to get their car fixed. And they don’t necessarily want to go to the dealership, but they do want to go to someone who specializes in their kind of car. It’s the same reason we go to a knee surgeon for knee surgery and not a heart surgeon, right? People want to go to someone that specializes in their specific situation because their car is important. Now, if I don’t want to pay to go to the dealer, I do want to go to someone that knows my car back and forth. He tripled his business in 18 months because he narrowed his focus over and over. This happens, picture yourself, being at a party. You walk into the party, you meet somebody. You don’t know, you say, what do you do? And they say, I’m a financial advisor. What do you want to do? Run? Because the next thing they’re going to say is, Hey, we should get coffee. And you’re like, Oh gosh, come on, don’t sell me. Now. There’s a financial advisor. I worked with actually here in Denver. And he says something different. And there’s a lot of good answers to this question. People say, what do you do? He says, I’m a financial advisor, but I only work with a very specific kind of client. Narrow Your Focus Now what do you want to know? Well, what kind of client? Instead of running away, you’re leaning in learning more because he’s given you the idea of specificity. Now, in his case, there’s a lot of good answers. So this, in his case, he only works with self-made millionaires. He works with a very small number of them. He helps them transition, which is a very unique, you know, phase of life. And he’s, he’s done it for a long time and he knows all the ins and outs of how to do it. And now you’re thinking, Oh my gosh, my aunt just sold her company, she should probably talk to you because you serve someone exactly like her. The more you narrow your focus, the more clear it becomes, who people should refer you to and what they should say about you. So narrowing your focus. Jenn DeWall: Gerry, I love your stories. By the way, I feel like I was just so engaged in that. It’s true. I mean, I’ve absolutely, you know, cause I think financial advisors sometimes, or any position where you perceive that they’re just going to sell you after they say what they do. Like that’s such an interesting way to flip the script. Is it does that by saying, well, I only work with a specific group of people or a specific X then you’re like, wait, I, yeah, I don’t want to run anymore. I want to know more about what you do. It’s so much more intriguing. And that is a point of mastery that I think people forget is acknowledging maybe the elephant in the room, which is someone’s trepidation of wanting to hear more and playing with that. That’s such a great story. Gerry O’Brion: People are afraid to narrow their focus because they don’t know where the next client’s gonna come from. But the reality is the next client’s going to come from. And by the way, when you narrow your focus, you get more expertise and better at serving those specific clients that you’re the best at lots of companies have a lot of clients that are not profitable and they’re a big pain in the butt because they’re afraid to fire them. They’re afraid to get rid of them because they don’t know who’s going to come in the door next. But if you narrow your focus, it’s it clarifies your marketing plan. It clarifies your sales plan. It clarifies your messages. So narrowing your focus. What, who are your customers? Question one. Jenn DeWall: Who are your people? I mean, and I feel like I’m still learning that lesson and that one’s a hard one to reinforce. I know that when I started a coaching business back in 2013, I naturally wanted to try and serve everyone, every organization. And then when I figured out new, I actually just want to help millennials navigate like the ups and downs. And that’s where I established my thought leadership. But now I’m at a different point in my career slash business. And I think you still get caught up in, well, wait, I don’t even want to niche. So for me, I feel like it’s this expanding process where you can get comfortable specializing. And then you can maybe go back into scarcity sometimes and forget that benefit of why we to do it and like reinforce that you need to stay consistent in knowing who you’re talking to, that you can’t go. And just kind of go back to talking to everyone because you will lose your influence. I just, that’s such a valuable message that I think people just forget, or they’re just afraid like myself. Like I don’t want to miss the business or I don’t want to do that. And that’s a great point to just bring back to people. So that’s our start. We got to know our audience. What is our next question? Question #2 – You’ve Narrowed Your Audience, Now What Are Your Insights? Gerry O’Brion: Next question is. So once you’ve narrowed your focus to that specific audience, what are your insights about them? And what do I mean by insights? Everyone who you’re trying to influence, they have things they want more of, or things they want less of, related to what you provide. Said another way, more powerfully, they have things they hope for and things they fear. If they’re going to give you the contract, if they’re going to buy from you, if they’re going to choose you, versus the other options, they have things they hope will happen. And they have things that they fear could happen. Now. Brain science shows us that people are about twice as motivated to avoid what they don’t want as they are to get what they do. What is it that your clients are afraid will happen? If they hire you? Said another way, what is it your clients are afraid will happen if they hire someone else and they don’t hire you? What are their fears? Pay attention to what they are trying to avoid. What are their frustrations? Gerry O’Brion: So insights, where do they want more of? So I’ll give you another financial planner insight. Let’s just stick with a financial planner idea for a second. So I have a buddy who’s starting a financial planning organization, brand new from scratch. And we’re talking about narrowing his focus. He grew up in a household that had two teachers in it. Now think of the insight. So now he’s gonna, he said, you know what? My core audience is teachers with young kids. Now, Jenn, what do you think from a financial planning standpoint is on the minds- we’re going to get insights. We’re going to pull them right out of you right now. What do you think is on the mind of teachers with young kids on their minds? Jenn DeWall: I mean, in terms of finances, it’s whether it’s investing in their kid’s college education, their 529, or whether it’s just their financial situation in the future. What Do People Want More Of? What do They Want Less Of? Gerry O’Brion: The first thing you said, trying to figure out, how am I going to pay for my kids to go to college? What about this 529 thing. It turns out that 529 is not the only financial strategy to help people go to college. In fact, because of tax regulations and all sorts of different things. And the way that financial aid works, sometimes a 529 is not the best option. And teachers who don’t make a lot of money who are highly educated. They all went to college, but they don’t have a lot of money, and they want their kids to go to college. They all want their kids to go to college. So deep insights, remember, what do people want more of, less of? Hope for or fear? I fear I’m not going to have enough money to get for my kid to go to college. I fear I’m not good at money and finances. I don’t know the best way to do this. I need someone to show me how over the next 18 years, 16 years, 15, 13, 12 years. What if I got a late start? How do I get where I need to be in order for my kids to go to college? My friend is going to specialize in doing that. Now I want you to think about this. If you narrow your focus and you specialize, your insights are easier to get. If he wants to be a financial planner for everybody, what are the insights? People want more money, not less. If we say teachers with young kids, what are your insights? We can come up with 15 or 20 of them right now. And we can create specific programs for them to meet their goals. And what happens? Teachers refer other teachers who refer other teachers. Referrals become the easiest thing. Ever. Your marketing plan gets married, very narrowly focused. You could do lunch and learns at schools, high schools, grade schools. I don’t know, but PTA meetings or I don’t even know what the heck the school meetings are. Everyone will want to go to it because the whole thing is how do you, as a teacher, get your kids through college. So let me show you some strategies over and above 529 plans. It’ll help you get better financial aid and save more money and be more profitable over time. But I mean, do you see the power of insights, of understanding hopes and fears, of narrowing your focus? So question two, what are your insights about those ideal customers? Jenn DeWall: You make this seem so easy. Like right now I’m like, of course, yeah, this is, you know, you, you, do. You have a way of describing it that I’m like, gosh, I’m so silly. Cause I’m trying to think about even what we do for Crestcom, you know, we, we offer leadership development and you know, one of the things that I describe it as converting and we sometimes as a network will say, it’s, it is developing managers into leaders, like helping people be maybe less tactical and more human. So for lack of a better description, but maybe in that sentence, it’s probably still too broad. And B I don’t even think that I address the fear, like what an organization has when they are investing. I mean, the thing that I can think of is not wanting to just invest in training to not have any result. And that’s one thing that I know that we do well, because we really encourage action plans and behavior change, but I need to keep going on that fear because I think that’s one of the few ones that I can say. And there’s probably people in our network that are like, Jenn, you can do this so much better. So I apologize to everyone for trying to do this off the cuff, but it’s just making me think. And I’m, you know, I think I can probably do a better job because I love what we do. Right. Like I love what we do. We have this podcast, we do that, but we want to impact, I want to influence more people and I know that our company does, but I just need to get better at how I talk about it. Gerry O’Brion: You know, that’s the biggest joke about training, right? What if I train my people so well and they leave and the flip side is what if you don’t train them and they stay? Jenn DeWall: Right. Yes. And training is just-I really like to think, of it as development. It’s a beautiful thing. And there’s total trust that if you develop them and they do leave, I mean, first and foremost, hopefully, they’ve also then been better at developing everyone around them, so you’re not as, I guess you’re not as devastated by the knowledge gap that’s created. But two hopefully they then will also support your business because it’s a great, still partnership. I mean, the thing that I’ll say to my coaching clients is your parents never birth you for the job that you have today. That’s not, you know, when mom and dad were like, I’m going to have a child and I want you to work at Coors your entire life, Gerry. Or I want you to do this or that. Like, that’s not what it is. So we are going to change. We just have to be more understanding that change is natural, but how do you make everything seem so easy, Gerry, Gerry O’Brion: I am a keynote speaker. This is what I do. Mostly what I do is I stand on stages and communicate complicated things in a simple way. So that audience members can go take action on it. You know, how many times have we been at conferences where, you know, you hear this great speaker, it’s like, woo, that’s great. And, but then you don’t know what to do or how to go do it. The reason that people bring me in for a keynote is I give a very actionable framework that can actually be used when you walk out of that room. And so I need to describe it in a way where they go, Oh yeah, I understand the concept. And I see how to implement it in my own business, which is what you’re doing right now. You’re saying, Oh wait, I can see this. I can see myself in this question. You know, I understand what to do with this or how to put it into action. Jenn DeWall: Right? Yeah. And to go deeper than just the, I would say the low hanging fruit of which is the ease of describing it to recognize that you’ve got to go a little bit deeper, and understanding that end-user or the individual, just to be able to make, describe the value. Because if it’s just generic. Yeah. Who the heck is going to want to invest in that? If it doesn’t seem, you know, beneficial. So I, okay. Let’s go into number three because I can, I can geek over all of this stuff probably all day, because I’m so intrigued in this conversation. What’s question number three? Question #3- What is the Desired Outcome? Gerry O’Brion: Number three is your outcome. So many times in business, we want to talk about ourselves. So let me tell you about our business. Let me tell you about me. Let me tell you about us and what we do. Let me tell you about what makes us special. You know, what your clients and your customers care about more than they care about you and your business? Themselves. What can you do for me? What can you do for me? And you know, there’s been a lot said, you know, people have heard of Simon Sinek, the guru. What’s your why? Here’s the reality for almost every business out there that sells something for money, your customers, if you’re lucky, maybe they care why you do what you do. Maybe they care why you’re in training or you sell air conditioners or you sell tires or you sell cars or use you name it or you whatever. Maybe they care why you became an attorney. You know what? They really care about what you do for me. I give you the money because of what you do for me, not why you do what you do. That’s so nice and inspirational. It’s wonderful, but I care what you do or me. So make no mistake. People don’t give you the money because of why you got into the business you’re in. They just don’t. Jenn DeWall: People forget that. Like, why do people forget that? It’s not about you? Like, I mean, I know people aren’t just blatant narcissist all the time, only thinking about themselves. Why do we think about that? Like, why do we forget that? Gerry O’Brion: Before we talk about ourselves, we need to talk about them. Now here’s the trick pay attention. This is how this works. You take your insights. If your insight was, I want my kid to go to college by age 18, the outcome comes directly from your insights, right? My outcome is my promise. If I’m a financial planner and I’m going to make a promise to you, the outcome is I work with parents who want to- who will be able to- send their kids to college by age 18. Even if they’re teachers, right? The outcome is kid goes to college, right? So the insight becomes the promise. The insight becomes the outcome. Gerry O’Brion: You know, I work with contractors or different people like that. Oh, we deliver on time. The promise is we deliver on time. The insight is, if it’s not on time, I’m going to be over budget. Or my boss is going to fire me or whatever the fear, right? The outcome is we’ll be on time. But if you only speak about the outcome, the promise, what we deliver, it ends up sounding like marketing fluff. Like just try this one on. So I’m Gerry, I’m going to open up a pizza place. Okay? I’m going to tell you my marketing. I want you to tune your ears and listen up and see how this strikes your gut, your subconscious, your ear. Your ear, your gut knows when something is marketing fluff and we write it and we think it’s good. Listen to this. Come on into Gerry’s pizza. Our pizza is better! Jenn DeWall: Right? Question #4 – What is Your “Because”? Gerry O’Brion: It’s absurd. But we put this garbage on our websites. Like, you know, we have higher quality. We build better relationships. Our product is better. We’re the best in the industry. And your brain goes, because? You haven’t finished the sentence of influence. Question four. This is the reason why associations bring me in, why CEOs get inspired to change everything in their organizations disrupt because they realize they haven’t finished the sentence of influence. Question four is what’s your Because? What’s the proof that you can deliver the outcome? What’s the proof that you can deliver your promise differently or better than everyone else. We have higher quality because- your brain wants you to finish the sentence of influence, inserting something that’s believable and repeatable after the outcome that you promise. And this is what most companies, most sales teams, most marketers, most videos don’t do. And it doesn’t allow our brains to want to buy from us. It’s your Because. This is the number one thing that companies implement to change their trajectory of success. That’s why I get brought into organizations is to help people find their Because. Now here’s how it works for hundreds of years, marketers or for hundreds of years, economists have been trying to convince us that all decisions are logical, rational decisions, right? Prices go up, demand goes down, prices, go down, demand goes up, but we know decisions are not all logical. We’re dealing with things like what we fear and what might happen or what might not happen? Or what’s my boss going to say, or what’s my spouse going to say, or what’s my father-in-law going to say. And we’re afraid of what’s going to happen. We’re hopeful for what will happen. So we know that decisions, aren’t just logical rational decisions for 120 years, marketers have been trying to convince us that all decisions are emotional. We make emotional decisions, which is true. But have you ever seen like a Super Bowl commercial, it made you laugh or made you cry and you got all emotional. And then someone says, Oh my God, what was that ad for? And you’re like yeah, I don’t remember what the ad was for, but it was so funny. He’s like that doesn’t sell anything, either. Emotion for the sake of emotion also doesn’t sell anything. So the 2002 Nobel prize winner in economics was not an economist. He was a psychologist who unraveled how our brains actually make these decisions. And what he discovered is our gut, our subconscious, our brain is looking for proof that we’re making a good call. I was in a room with a hundred people one day that do HVAC installations. And we’re talking about pricing and we’re talking about finding there because, and one of the guys stands up. He goes, well, here’s the crazy thing is that people want to get a really good price. They want to get a really good price. He goes, not only because they want to save money, but because they want to prove to their neighbor that they got a good deal. I’m like, what really? And he goes, Oh, and all the other, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. They all want to get a good deal. So they can say to their father-in-law and their neighbor, their, their dad. Oh yeah. I got a great offer. I got a great deal. Okay. Jenn DeWall: Wait, can I interrupt you? Because you and I are both from the same state in the US And when I think about Wisconsin, like one of the things that comes to mind as you’re sharing that is I can give, and I know that I do this myself, right? So I’m not just, you know, calling out other people back there, like my friends and everything, but you can say, you know, Gerry, I really like your shirt. And then the first thing is like, things I got it on sale. And it was only $10. Like, that’s always the first thing it’s like, you lead with price. I never asked about the price, but there is a lot of accomplishment and pride around a good deal. Gerry O’Brion: So regardless if it’s around price or what it’s or me, I have to justify something to my boss that I made a good decision. The way I like to put it is our brain needs a rational reason to make an emotional decision. Our brain needs a rational reason to make an emotional decision. Oh, come on in to Gerry’s Pizza. Our pizza is better, but because now look at Papa John’s. Papa John’s was a tiny little startup company back in the nineties said our pizza is better because we have better ingredients, better pizza. That’d be an ingredient for the pizza. They got sued by Pizza Hut. Back in the nineties, Pizza Hut said, you can’t say your pizza is better. Papa John’s wins the lawsuit because they use fresh sliced tomatoes and filtered water. Not saying your “because” has to be that good. The thing is you have to have one. Jenn DeWall: Seriously. That’s like, wow. I had no idea about that. Gerry O’Brion: You go to Papa John’s website. Every single one of their ingredients is listed. What makes it superior? Their entire organization is aligned around one idea of how we are going to be the best choice for everyone. And so now everything there’s videos, there’s ingredient lists. Their entire marketing campaign is all around, better ingredients, better pizza. Now that’s a simple example. A lot of our customers, our clients, they don’t deal in simple industries. I deal with contractors who have big 20, $30 million contracts. You’re “because”- the because for Papa John’s is simple and easy. Many of these larger companies have multiple “because” that are used for different people. In the long sales cycle, you might be influencing four or five different people during your sales cycle. Over six months. Each of those people has their own insights, their own outcomes that you want to promise to them and their own pieces of proof that because is an engineer is going to relate to a different because than a CEO than a CFO, then the operations people, right? Your Brain Wants a “Because” not Marketing Fluff Gerry O’Brion: And so the cycle goes on and on insights outcome, because who are you influencing insights outcome, because, and that’s the framework that I teach. You’re because makes what you say more believable and more repeatable. I believe that my gut believes it. My brain believes that my subconscious believes that because you’ve finished the sentence of influence. You’ve given me a rational reason to make the emotional decision. And if we don’t give you that linkage, your brain thinks what we’re saying sounds like marketing fluff. And that’s the framework of influence. That’s the power of your “because”, your piece of proof in your brain, Jenn DeWall: Let me see. And I want to preface this to our audience. I do not consider myself a salesperson, but I do understand that we are likely as role of leaders, we’re all influencing someone, whether we are intentionally doing it, or so I’m just going to try this on. I am not promising you that I am going to be good at this. So if anyone’s listening and they’re like, Oh, , real bad at trying to figure this out. Jenn DeWall: So I’m going to try and apply it for Crestcom right. You would think that I would be able to do this really well because I, you know, I teach leadership every single day almost, but I can do it this. So insight. If I take an insight maybe of, you know, turnover. I guess an insight of knowing that organizations that are going to invest in leadership would be maybe they want to reduce turnover and increase their engagement. So then they can reduce their knowledge gap and create happier employees. I don’t know if that’s the insight, if that even is too broad, I have no idea. Remember guys, I’m just trying this on. So then the outcome that they want to, you know, reduce their turnover and to improve engagement because we know productivity and things like that. But then the, because is that then about us? Because we do this- in a sense of we do this because we are all about sustained behavior change. We know that you can invest in a lot of like garbage trainings and don’t do anything with it. Would that be our because? Gerry O’Brion: It’s a really good question and no, it is not. Jenn DeWall: But I’m happy that I did this because I feel like I’d much rather be the Guinea pig. So then hopefully someone can take your insights and continue to grow. How to Provide Proof Gerry O’Brion: Always! So let me explain it to you and I’ll give you a better, because then you’ll see the difference. So you’re because it’s a piece of proof that you can deliver your outcome, right? So now think about this. The insight is we want to reduce turnover. The outcome that you promise is if you use our training, you’ll reduce turnover. The reason that you’ll reduce turnover is not because you guys are so great at training, right? That might be true. That may be true. That you’re really great at training. What if you had a study that said of the last five companies that have that have implemented our training program, their employee satisfaction survey of “intends to stay at the company for more than 12 months” score went from 48% to 79%. That’s a piece of proof where you go, if you do this, your employees, I can prove to you they’re more engaged. Look, we’ve got this client, we’ve got that testimonial. We’ve got this statistic. It’s not because you want to do it. Or because you’re, you’re saying you’re so good. It’s because there’s proof there’s or someone else. Gerry O’Brion: And I’ve got 15 different ways that you create because it’s one of them is statistics. And one of them is what we call social proof, which would be video testimonials of clients saying, Hey, we had a real problem with our millennial folks. We were, we were having turnover. We had, we were in a constant state of hiring. And what we found out, now you let her or him repeat the insight, was that millennials were leaving us because they didn’t think we were investing in their futures. And turns out that one of the insights about millennials is that they want to get, they get blamed for it, Oh, they want to get ahead quickly. Well they do, so did all of us at that age, it’s not a problem. It’s a good thing. And here’s the thing. If they don’t believe they can get ahead quickly at your company, because you’re not training them or you’re not developing them, or you’re not coaching or mentoring them, they’re going to go somewhere else that’s got a better training, developing, mentoring, coaching program, or a better org chart, or a better, a five-year strategy plan. There’s a whole bunch of reasons why they leave your organization and it might be you! Jenn DeWall: Yeah. You just listed everything of like how I even have a job as a coach of like what companies I think were really reluctant to even grab onto is understanding the, you know, these passions. And instead of judging them being like, how do we work with them instead of just working against them. Gerry O’Brion: Right. So you can see what I just did is I just listed like ten insights, right? Insight, insight, insight outcome is that your people are going to stay longer that’s because, because, because, Oh, because this testimonial said that people did, Oh, because we have statistics and we track our success rates. Oh, because we’ve got something from the millennials saying they finally invested in me. Oh. Because, because, because, because, because now I’ll give you a couple of super high-level techniques. One is, what can you say about your company? Now not everyone can get to this, but what can you say about your company that we are the only, we’re the only training company who… Now that’s hard. That’s not easy to do, but if you can do it, that gives your what you say. Next gives you a superpower. You know, I’m the only keynote speaker that worked for four different billion-dollar brands before he became a professional speaker. Gerry O’Brion: That’s arguable, it may be true. I don’t know if that’s true, but you see it’s my Because my, because people say, well, Gerry, what’s your Because, Oh, it’s because I worked for billion-dollar brands. I know what Coors did. I know what Red Robin did, and I can show your company how to do it. Regardless if you have no marketing budget, I can show you the framework of influence. And they go, Ooh, we want to learn that. Our people want to learn that. Our tire installers, retailers, want to learn that are you know propane dealer network wants to learn how to stand out because it’s a commodity. I sold beer beers, a commodity. So as sort of a lot of things like tires, propane, seriously, funeral services, attorneys, you name it. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. The things that we don’t even realize that we all need that there are a million options. It seems like. Insights, Outcome, Because Gerry O’Brion: Yeah. Last year, my number one client type was HVAC installers. Seriously. Talk about, I mean, it’s tough. It’s tough. So, so that’s the framework of influence. Who are you narrowing your focus to? Insights, outcome, because. Insights, outcome, because. And the reason why CEOs bring me in so often is because they realize they don’t have a good Because. They go, wow. On our website, we’re saying we’re the best relationships are highest quality. And they don’t have an ink in there because it’s buried on page two, paragraph four of their about page, because here’s the thing, great companies have things that they’re doing that are unique and different that are valuable. Most of them are not telling anyone. And I help them uncover those unique things that they do. Jenn DeWall: I mean, Gerry, the way I’m not like I could probably have this conversation all day, which we know that no, one’s going to want to do it all day. But cause that’s just not real life, but you just really have it. I mean, this with so much just gratitude and appreciation for what you do, because you really have a great way of describing it. Like I felt like, I mean, I, you know, I’m an educated individual. I have my own business. Sure. I have my MBA, like all these qualifiers. Right. That should make me perfectly able to know everything, but I don’t of course. Right. Like, and I just think the way that you describe it makes it feel very accessible to me. And it’s not also in a way that is maybe, you know, patronizing because it’s like, you should know this. It’s hard. Jenn DeWall: It’s not an easy thing because you can, I know my brain, you can maybe get stuck on one piece of it and you can maybe narrow your audience really, really well. But then you forget about the, you know, you know, the insights, but you forget about the outcome and the because. And I just thank you so much for even taking your time to share all these examples. Like with sincere appreciation. I am very grateful for this. I feel like I already want to send this out and it’s not even gone through all of our editing. And I’m like, everyone needs to listen to this. You do a really great job of making it very simple and easy to understand. And thank you for that. Gerry O’Brion: My pleasure. And this is why when I come into a company and work one-on-one or why a company comes to one of my day-long workshops, I’ll put multiple companies, multiple teams in a room, you know, not during COVID, but it takes a full day to really go through the four questions and to really uncover and start to develop your because, and I’ll do it. We’ll, we’ll do nothing but work on insights outcome because for a full day with an executive team, a really smart executive team at a company, and we’ll come up with 30, 40, 50, 60 insights. We’ll narrow them. We’ll come up with a lot of outcomes. We’ll come up with a dozen or two dozen Because’s. We’ll narrow the focus. And then it gets into a second day before you can figure out the implementation and execution plan of where are you going to put it? Are you going to build it in Salesforce, in the sales flow, how are going to put it in the videos and your website and all these kinds of things. It takes some time and it takes some, some guidance. It sounds easy, but the work to your point is challenging. It’s hard, but it’s worth it because it can change the trajectory of your success without a doubt. And I’ve seen it happen. Jenn DeWall: I’m inspired! I want to go and look at my own business or even think about how I can, you know, make better impacts for Crestcom! Because I love what we do. I’m a leadership nerd. I want to teach everyone about leadership, but you know, that passion is great. But if I can’t answer insight outcome because, and do it well in a way that people want to invest, then you know, I’m not going to have the impact. And gosh, thank you for that. How, because I want people to be able to get in touch with you. How do they connect with you? Is it going to your website? I know that they can book you for these day-long workshops or even for keynoting, which I know you’ll do you do both virtual and live obviously because this is the state that we live in, but how do they connect with you? Connect with Gerry Gerry O’Brion: So my website is called whatbigbreandsknow.com. And here’s the key. Here’s how you spell my name is Gerry with a G O’Brion. Listen up O B R I O N. I’m one of the only O’Brion with an O N on all of LinkedIn. If you put in Gerry O’Brion, I will come up. Because it’s only myself and my cousins that I have that spelling. So I’m very easy to find, but whatbigbrandsknow.com. And I would love to be a keynoter for any or virtual or live any kind of conference. So I think we’re going to be live again April or May next year is my hope and my intention and what I think the vaccines will allow hopefully. But yeah, keynote is really what I do, but also bring coming into companies or, you know, I’m happy to do some virtual kind of unique things these days too, because I’m still around and I’m, you know, if people want to reach out to me and say, Hey, can you help me? I can give them the options of how that works, but yeah. Please reach out, connect on LinkedIn and yeah. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Well, and I think right now, even just your opening story with like, if I had to recap- like even thinking about how can we not only about the four questions, but how can we embrace the mess? Like of trying. I think that was a really important opening that you shared. I don’t know, Gerry, I just feel awkwardly like fangirling, because they really have enjoyed this conversation more than, you know, and please, I hope that everyone else has enjoyed this and connect with Gerry on LinkedIn or go to his website, book him to help your organization because we know that if you, especially for the people that may be listening that, you know, have just a big idea, like how I love leadership. And I know people that are listening also might love leadership, but they also love something else. Jenn DeWall: And how can we make their messages come to light? So then they can make that change. I just love that you can be that catalyst for people. So thank you so much for just taking your time to, you know, just sharing your time and expertise with us at Crestcom. I greatly appreciate it. Gerry O’Brion: My pleasure. Thank you so much. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. I hope that you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I know I’m walking away with a lot of different insights and what I’m going to do differently. If you liked this episode, please share it with your friends, share it with your boss, spread the news. I think we could all benefit from the Power of Because, but if you want to get to know more about Gerry, you can head over to his website. WhatBigBrandsKnow.com and it’s Gerry O’Brion that’s Gerry, G E R R Y O B R I O N. Thank you so much for listening and don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service until next time.   The post The Power of Because with Marketing Expert and Keynote Speaker Gerry O’Brion appeared first on Crestcom International.