Boardroom Governance with Evan Epstein

Robin Ferracone, Founder and CEO of Farient Advisors and author of 'Fair Pay, Fair Play', shares her career journey from Indiana to the forefront of executive compensation. She discusses the evolution of executive pay, the need for U.S. companies to adopt stakeholder measures, and the significance of human capital in today's corporate landscape. Ferracone critiques 'moon shot equity grants', highlights the Exxon Mobil proxy fight as pivotal for corporate governance, and emphasizes aligning executive compensation with social and climate goals.

Intro.(1:40) - Start of interview.(2:08) - Chris's "origin story": he grew up in East Greenwich, Rhode Island, but has spent most of his adult life in NY or outside of DC. He started out as a derivatives trader right out of college. Then he went to law school. After law school, he joined White & Case and later Sullivan & Cromwell to focus on M&A transactions. In the late 1990s (during the "dot com" era), he joined Bear Sterns as an investment banker in the tech group.(7:40) - On his move to join ISS in a newly created role as director of M&A research, in the midst of the HP-Compaq merger. "I think I was hired originally as a CYA sort of process." "But I happened to arrive at the onset of what I think was the beginning of the modern age of hedge fund activism in 2004 (Bill Ackman had just formed Pershing Square, Nelson Peltz started Trian, Jeff Smith with Starboard Value, etc.). It was perfect timing and fortuitous."(10:54) -  On how ISS makes its voting recommendations on contested M&A and activist campaigns, and how the first thing he did at ISS was to create a framework to deal with contested M&A situations and proxy fights for board seats. The framework is still being used today by the ISS Special Situations Team. Institutional investors needed this guidance.(15:53) - On how he grew the ISS Special Situations Team over time, with people experienced on public companies. Very different team than those of say-on-pay proposals or other more junior analysts. "The way I thought about it was the moment I pressed the button of recommendation, if I had all my retirement money on that one specific stock, how would I vote after I had the inside look."(20:34) - On the importance of the ISS vote: "Depending on the make-up of the share register, between 20-30% of the share register is going to be at least influenced by the ISS vote, in particular if Glass Lewis has the same recommendation."(21:52) - On his transition from ISS to Credit Suisse ("after 7 proxy seasons at ISS"). He joined CS to start a dedicated contested situations team on the corporate advisory side: "Today almost every bank has a dedicated team but back then it was only Goldman Sachs." "Banks do not represent activists, the market has dictated that. If you cross that Rubicon, the competition will use that against you. I personally think that is shortsighted, it may change over time. Just like banks did not represent hostile bidders in M&A, until they did."(27:19) - On his current role at Jefferies. "It's a growing platform seeking to capture market share for public company M&A." We have a team of 5 people dedicated solely on hostile M&A, contested "friendly" M&A transactions and activism defense.(30:00) - His take on the current proxy season, including Engine No.1's successful proxy fight with Exxon Mobil: "I've seen a lot of events that were deemed landmark, and Exxon could indeed be deemed a landmark situation. I know Charlie Penner (from his time at Jana Partners) and I knew that Engine No.1 wouldn't wage a proxy fight based on [Jana's 3Vs template], where one of those Vs is having the necessary votes...In addition, Exxon Mobil had been considered a pariah at least since the mid-2000s,  due to its refusal to engage with major investors and proxy advisors. These factors plus a period of under-performance by Exxon meant that Engine No.1 picked the right target [and they ran a very good campaign]."(34:33) - But for Chris, the hard part for Engine No.1 is what's next: now that they have 3 board members at Exxon Mobil, will they deliver on their promises? Chris is reminded of the case when he supported Nelson Peltz at Heinz (at the time a landmark proxy fight on a board election contest). Jeff Smith gave an interview about the Engine No.1 proxy fight and he brought up the Darden case, the first time an activist had succeeded in replacing an entire board of a Fortune 500 company (and they performed fairly well thereafter). "Let's see what we will be saying three years from now about the Exxon proxy fight, will Exxon change and if they do, will the results be good and driven by Engine No.1?"(37:00) - On the rise of global M&A and PE. "There hasn't been a ton of messy M&A, but we are starting to see more." On companies going private: "it's an inventory problem, more and more companies are leaving the public markets." In the UK, there is a national angst over the raiding of their companies (it's easy to take-over companies in the UK).(39:59) - On public vs private markets. "The private market is growing much faster than the public markets." On dual-class stock. On the different cultures in Silicon Valley and Wall St: "it depends on your story, if there is a story of value creation and people believe in the management and the board, they may sacrifice their own rights [to get a piece of the action]. The problems will arise as the company matures and under-performs with those structures [such as with dual class shares], but then you can always get rid of them later." The question he asks of his capital market colleagues: "Do people love this company? Is it oversubscribed? To what level? To some degree you don't have to give public investors anything. Money talks." Just like with shareholder activism: "It's where people have lost money, or money has been 'dead money' is when they start to get anxious and agitated about the people running the company." "Share price performance is the best defense, it's the first thing that I have in the book for boards of directors." "But almost every company at some point,  even the great companies, will have something hit them and that's when they are vulnerable. If they can fix it quickly then they're out, but if it sits there for 2-3 years [in the case of Exxon it was multiple years], then they become vulnerable."(45:56) - On the positive and negative sides the SPAC trend: "The real reckoning will only be known in 2023 when a huge number of these SPACs will have to deliver on their acquisitions." "The future of this market will depend upon will there be more success stories than failures and how they will be covered in the media and other outlets. The jury is still out."(49:41) - On the sustainability and ESG trend: "I don't know if it will maintain its current level of importance." "[It reminds me] of the overcrowded trade from back in my day as a derivative trader in the dot com mania peak. With ESG it seems like the same thing: the buzz over the last few years has created a tremendous flow into ESG focused funds. But there is a difference between saying that ESG creates outperformance or if it mitigates risk (the latter almost everyone agrees)." "What's interesting to me is that there are already three hedge funds that are focused on ESG strategies: Engine No.1, Impactive Capital (founded by Lauren Taylor Wolfe) and Inclusive Capital Partners (Jeff Ubben)." "There are also more companies supporting shareholder proposals (instead of opposing them)." "After the Exxon proxy fight, directors realize that they may be taken out by sub 1% shareholders."(57:48) - The book that has greatly influenced his life:For Whom the Bell Tolls (1940), by Ernest Hemingway. "It mostly taught me about the economy of language, and the power of simple, stark, declarative sentences in the active voice."(58:56) - His mentor: his father.(59:52) - His favorite quotes: a mish mash of 'carpe diem', 'we're not promised tomorrow', 'live in the moment', don't stress over the past or obsess over the future', [they are all kinda the same thing] "but I try to wake up  every day and live that way, not only in the difficult times."(1:00:41) - An unusual or absurd habit that he loves: he's still a die-hard metal head. In college he had radio show and his moniker was "Dr Metal"!(1:01:37): The living person he most admires:  "To me it's the group of people that sacrifice for a greater good, whether it's the military, first responders, and particularly (most recently) essential workers, healthcare workers and others that let others live their lives (often under duress). To me that's inspiring."Christopher Young is the Global Head of Contested Situations at Jefferies, an investment banking firm headquartered in New York, with offices in over 30 cities around the world. Chris is an expert advisor to public company directors and senior management teams with respect to contested situations, including hostile M&A bids and responses, contested "friendly" M&A transactions and shareholder activism, including proxy contests for Board seats.If you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __ You can follow Evan on social media at:Twitter @evanepsteinLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

Intro.(1:39) - Start of interview.(2:15) - About UC Hastings and the Center for Business Law [that we are building together!](5:10) - Jared's "origin story": he grew up in Michigan, attended the U. of Michigan (BA political science) and Columbia Law School (JD). A book on the bankruptcy of Marvel Comics led him to bankruptcy law and practice. After graduation he joined Brown Rudnick in NYC (’07-’11). He later joined academia as a Teaching Fellow and Lecturer in Law in Corporate Governance & Practice at Stanford Law School ('11-'14). He joined the UC Hastings Faculty in 2014.(9:38) - Start of discussion about his latest article The Rise of Bankruptcy Directors: "Traditionally bankruptcy is about a court process, not a board process." But his research shows that the boardroom increased its prominence in bankruptcy starting in about 2012-2013, where many distressed companies, especially those controlled by private equity sponsors, prepared for bankruptcy by appointing independent directors (which they call "bankruptcy directors") to their boards of directors with the power to make key bankruptcy decisions.(13:03) -  On the new cohort of "bankruptcy directors" and the parallels with venture capital and Silicon Valley [Their dataset consists of the boards of directors of 528 firms and the 2,895 individuals who collectively hold 3,038 directorships at firms in bankruptcies from 2004-2019]: "The change is that a practice that was once relatively uncommon has become ubiquitous and a central and standard part of the process of preparing for a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, leading to the growth of an industry of professional bankruptcy directors who fill this new demand for bankruptcy experts on the board of distressed firms."(15:08) - On the question of fiduciary duty of loyalty and conflicts of interests of bankruptcy directors (particularly regarding the private equity controlling owners) and the emergence of "super-repeater directors".(16:38) - The example of the Nine-West bankruptcy.(21:34) - Whether bankruptcy judges will incorporate some standards such as those used (for example) by the Delaware Chancery Court on the independence of directors, board conflicts and the decision-making process of the board.(23:02) - On his finding that unsecured creditors recovered 21% less when a bankruptcy director is appointed.  On the lucrative new bankruptcy director role.(26:04) - On his proposal that the court regard bankruptcy directors as independent only if creditors support their appointment.(29:03) - "The elevation of the board is an important (new) trend in the bankruptcy process." "The Board is going to play a more central part in bankruptcies."(31:52) - On the current growth of the economy and deal-making despite pandemic, and projected bankruptcies. "It's caught all of us by surprise." "It just shows you that Washington can change the rules on Wall Street on they want to." On the Hertz bankruptcy.(34:49) - His thoughts on the next trends in bankruptcies: "I think we are going to continue to see the democratization of the bankruptcy process." "Bankruptcy is less of a black box today and retail investors are becoming bigger players (the participation of normal people in Chapter 11 is a trend that we are going to see continue."(36:46) - On bankruptcy forum shopping. "This issue goes back to the 1990s, and we will continue to see a concentration of bankruptcy cases in the hands of a few judges."(38:53) - On his advocacy to increase the number of bankruptcy judges (in response to Covid-19).(40:17) - The books that have greatly influenced his life:Comic Wars (2002), by Dan Raviv.The Strategy of Conflict (1981), by Thomas Shelling.The Selfish Gene (1990), by Richard Dawkins.Germs, Guns and Steel (1997), by Jared Diamond.(41:30) - His mentors:J.David Singer, Professor at U. of Michigan.Jeffrey Fagan, Professor at Columbia Law School.Edward Morrison,  Professor at Columbia Law School.Robert Stark, Brown Rudnick.Michael Klausner, Professor at Stanford Law School.George Triantis, Professor at Stanford Law School.Kenneth Ayotte, Professor at Berkeley Law School.(43:23) - His favorite quote: Benjamin Disraeli on William Gladstone: "He had only one idea, and it was wrong.”Jared A. Ellias is a  Professor of Law, the Bion M. Gregory Chair in Business Law and the Faculty Director of the Center for Business Law at the University of California, Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco. In 2020, he was honored by the American Bankruptcy Institute as one of the "40 Under 40 Leaders in Insolvency Practice." Contact: Faculty Profile • SSRN • LinkedIn •TwitterIf you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __ You can follow Evan on social media at:Twitter @evanepsteinSubstack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

Intro.(1:30) - Start of interview.(2:14) - Donna's "origin story": She grew up moving a lot since her dad was a Navy pilot. She attended Trinity University (started at 16). After college she worked as a newspaper reporter at a small daily in Washington State and then worked in the PR office for the State Department in Brussels. She later got an MBA at the University of Texas at Austin with the objective of becoming an investment analyst. After graduation she joined Dyer, Robertson & Lamme (’96-’98) in Houston as an equities analyst. She then joined Invesco (’98- ‘07) as director of equity research, including responsibility for voting the proxies. She joined T. Rowe Price (’07- Present) with a specialty in corporate governance.(6:34) - Her description of T. Rowe Price (NASDAQ:TROW), a global investment management firm with ~$1.59 Trillion of AUM. "This firm is virtually all active management (95%)." It's pure play asset management, deeply rooted in fundamental investment research. Corporate governance became more relevant around the time of the financial crisis (2007), so a decision was made to create a corporate governance specialty group.(10:42) -  How does T. Rowe Price think about its corporate governance function? "I think that our corporate governance approach is complementary to the passive investors." "We have a set of guidelines but nobody gets wedded to that, we approach each situation case-by-case." "This year brought so many exceptions, such as compensation during the pandemic." They look at every single vote. The proxy team is comprised of 3 people. They have a separate responsible investment team that covers ESG matters.(17:21) - On ESG and its impact on corporate governance: T. Rowe Price had 1,002 engagements with companies in 2020: 53% dealt with ESG matters. The job of the ESG folks is still centered around getting the information they need (disclosure of relevant data is still an issue with ESG). "We have a very disproportionately large footprint in small and mid cap companies, plus private companies, and they need a lot of coaching on ESG, DEI or corporate governance matters."(20:11) - On corporate governance of private companies (pre-IPO). We are early in the life-cycle of these companies so we can show them what are the corporate governance trade-offs (particularly from the shareholder side).(24:14) - Her take on dual-class share structures (enlightened by her role in the private investments valuation committee at T. Rowe Price). They plan to be long term investors, so they make sure that the companies that they have invested in understand the trade-offs involved in decisions such as having dual-class shares (for example, exclusions from S&P500 index if dual class shares don't expire). "It's reasonable to start with a classified board and graduate to an annually elected board later." On dual-class shares: "over time we have concluded based on years of experience that [the dual-class share structure] is not aligned with our interests... but...we are perfectly comfortable with a time-based sunset provision of 7 to 10 years." "This is a market where dual-class stock is accepted, so we think that a road-map idea and compromises like time-based sunset provisions are the right pragmatic solutions" "I think a lot of investors view that sunset provisions are the perfect compromise in this market, where there are not many alternatives."(29:39) - Her take on the current proxy season: "This was a very surprising year but I would not put [the Exxon proxy fight] on that bucket. Anyone that was surprised by that outcome was not playing close enough attention." "We don't see [the Exxon case] as a watershed event where investors will push E & S directors into boardrooms." "I think the conditions were very Exxon specific and that same fund with those same directors brought at any other company would have had a different outcome."(30:46) - On compensation issues in this proxy season. "We've been really surprised at how investors had their pitchforks out over companies that made comp changes in the heat of the moment in Q2 last year."(31:32) - On how some large shareholders flipped their views in favor of E&S shareholder proposals. "Those results were surprising to me and to a lot of companies."(32:31) - On the shareholder proposal process: "I think that shareholders have yet to reckon with the fact that the shareholder proposal process in this market has been taken over by non-shareholders [such as advocacy groups including E&S activist groups 'harnessing the power of shareholders' to foster social change]" "I think it's really questionable whether some of these activists actually want [companies such as] Amazon, Exxon, Chevron or Kroger to exist in 10 years." It's questionable whether these groups are aligned with shareholders interests.(34:04) - On companies arm twisting to bullying on vote outcomes this proxy season: "The Sunday night late calls that we've gotten, the votes put on hold for some time, this kind of thing is not allowed in other markets but it is allowed here. I thought this year they were particularly aggressive. I hope it's not a trend but I've been pretty alarmed by the lengths that the companies went through to engineer an outcome that is not real."(36:35) - On board diversity: "This is an area where the pace of progress is pretty surprising, and what it took to get there was shareholders coalescing around board diversity." T. Rowe Price wrote a letter to support the Nasdaq board diversity proposal. "Our take on board diversity is that [there must be a target], whether you want to call it a quota or not. If it's only aspirational guess what, the progress is very, very slow."(36:35) - On the Business Roundtable "purpose of the corporation" restatement (2019). "I don't put a lot of stock in it." See "The Illusory Promise of Stakeholder Capitalism" Bebchuk & Tallarita (2020). Also, if you talk to IR professionals, it's clear that shareholders are still a priority for companies.(43:58) - The books that have greatly influenced her life:Wuthering Heights (1847), by Emily Brontë.Seven Choices (2003), by Elizabeth Harper Neeld.Caste (2020), by Isabel Wilkerson.(45:47) - Her mentors:The editor at the newspaper where she worked post college that taught her how to write, in a week.Brian Rogers (former Chairman and CIO at T. Rowe Price).(47:21) - Her favorite quotes:"You can get so much farther with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone" by Al Capone."A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn no other way" by Mark Twain.(48:08) - Her "unusual habit": searching weird rocks!(59:04) - The living person she most admires: "women crushing it in a male dominated field" (ie Angela Merkel, Oprah, etc.) but she's fascinated by Mellody Hobson, co-CEO and President of Ariel Investments.Donna Anderson, the Head of Corporate Governance at T. Rowe Price (NASDAQ:TROW), a global investment management firm with ~$1.5 Trillion of AUM. Donna leads the policy-formation process for proxy voting, chairs the firm’s Proxy Committee and leads the firm’s engagement efforts with portfolio companies. She serves as a specialist for incorporating ESG considerations into the firm’s investment-research process. She is also a member of the firm’s Valuation Committee and the Women’s Roundtable Advisory Council.If you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __ You can follow Evan on social media at:Twitter @evanepsteinSubstack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

Intro.(1:32) - Start of interview.(2:10) - Larry's "origin story." He grew up in Wilmington, Delaware ("which explains why I have corporate governance in my blood.") He attended Girard College in Philadelphia, then went to the University of Delaware (BA Economics) and Cardozo School of Law (JD). After graduation he worked as an associate at Cravath for 6 years and then joined academia with Cardozo (10 years) moving later to Boston College Law School. He later switched to George Washington University Law School where he's been for the past 10 years.(6:04) - He is the founding faculty director of GW in NY (now in its 6th year).(8:46) -  His experience serving on boards of directors. Currently with Constellation Software. In the nonprofit sector, he is a Trustee of the Museum of American Finance, a Smithsonian affiliate; Member of the Dean's Council of Lerner College of Business of the University of Delaware; a Member of the Editorial Board of Financial History, the magazine of the Museum of American Finance; and a Member of the Advisory Board of the Ben Graham Centre for Value Investing at the Ivey Business School, University of Western Ontario.(10:42) - How he got started researching Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway: In 1996 he organized a conference at Cardozo Law School on Warren's letters to Berkshire shareholders. This resulted in the publication of The Essays of Warren Buffett: Lessons for Corporate America (now in it's 5th edition).(15:33) - His article on "Warren Buffett's 10 Commandments for Corporate Directors" (2017):Select an outstanding CEO.Set CEO performance standards.Adopt an owner orientation.Replace managers promptly when needed.Speak up to colleagues.Reach out to shareholders.Adjust social atmosphere of the boardroom.Compensation Committees: Negotiate.Audit Committees: Pry.Choose Well. Warren adds these qualifications that make for high-quality directors: 1) business savvy, 2) a strong interest in the specific company, and 3) an owner-orientation.(32:12) - Origin and scope of the "Quality Shareholder Initiative" focused on long-term concentrated shareholders. Dubbed "high quality shareholders" by Warren Buffett in 1978, the initiative takes its title from that designation.(38:42) - His take on the meme stock phenomenon: "I'm concerned about it, particularly its form of 'grievance capital' (there is a political aspect to it, for some it's not only about money)."(41:34) - His take on ESG. Two different aspects:Why indexers choose ESG: 'they have a systemic business model.' They need a universal set of principles.Quality shareholders have been seeking 'doing good' for ever.(48:12) - His take on dual-class share structures. There is no correlation between dual-class shares on quality shareholders. There is no particular preference for dual class shares one way or another. ["Given the wide variety of approaches to shareholder voting, quality shareholders examine dual class structures on a case-by-case basis. Among companies with dual class structures are a substantial cohort with high quality shareholder density."](52:67) - The books that have greatly influenced his life:Economics, by Paul Samuelson (1948)Economic Analysis of Law, by Richard Posner (1973)(54:14) - His mentors:Originally, his headmaster at Girard College. Particularly on "values of loyalty and honesty."Warren Buffett.Lester Brickman.(55:32) - His favorite quotes:"You can't soar like an eagle if you're surrounded by turkeys" by his father-in-law."Only go into business with people you like, trust and admire" by Warren Buffett.(58:00) - His "unusual habit" that he loves: raking leaves, grass or twigs.(59:04) - The living person he most admires: his wife, Stephanie Cuba.Lawrence A. Cunningham is the Henry St. George Tucker III Research Professor of Law at George Washington University;  Director of C-LEAF and the Founding Faculty Director, GWinNY. You can find him at lacunningham@law.gwu.edu or on Twitter @CunninghamProfIf you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __ You can follow Evan on social media at:Twitter @evanepsteinSubstack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

(0:00) Intro.(1:42) Start of interview.(3:11) Joe's take on the rise of IPOs and SPACs since 2020. "There is a level where it is all entirely rational."(4:16) Staying private vs going public in this environment. "In today's world, companies have three alternatives: do another VC round, a SPAC or an IPO."(6:43) On the fundraising environment: "This is historically unprecedented... due to fiscal and monetary stimulus throughout the U.S. and global economies." "But you have to combine that with the observation that we really do have some fundamental technological and economic changes going on."(8:47) Are you bullish or bearish on the economy and markets? "I'm confused-ish"(10:46) On Bitcoin, and the new Bitcoin Law from El Salvador (making it legal tender in that country): It has serious repercussions for US law (currency vs security, money transmission, tax implications, etc).(12:56) On US public corporations adding Bitcoin to the corporate treasuries. On bitcoin mining ("dirty, dirty, dirty") and the distinctions between "proof of work" and "proof of stake" cryptos. On Elon's decision to not accept Bitcoin to purchase Teslas.(16:12) On DeFi: "Once regulators figure out what's going on here, they are going to try to crush it." "You know, the SEC has no idea what to do with crypto. The SEC is asking for legislation, they're actually begging for legislation, because if you get legislation, then it's not their job. Unless (the SEC's nightmare) Congress gives the SEC all the authority it needs to regulate crypto and says to the SEC: here you go, do it."(19:30) On DAOs: "They can lead to chaos. I mean, what is the governance structure? Each one of these has a very different governance structure. And one of the things that we know is that there's no perfect governance structure, right? If you want to over intellectualize this, go back to Ken Arrow's Impossibility Theorem where he demonstrated that there are lots of criteria we would like to see in a society and you can't simultaneously have them all. Well, you know, that's a super brainiac way of saying that governments are always going to fail to one degree or another. Putting the problem of social organization on the blockchain does not solve the problem of social organization. It simply replicates the problem on the blockchain, right? So why do people think that putting an insoluble problem on the blockchain solves the insoluble problem is an insoluble problem to me."(21:13) On the different approach to blockchain by computer scientists and lawyers. The Stanford Center for Blockchain Research. "What can I say? The computer science people don't get sued 25 times... you know, in computer science, your equations are generally fairly well behaved. And if you write a system, you know how it's going to operate. We're lawyers, we deal with people. Not only deal with people, we deal with plaintiffs. It's a very different problem. I mean look, in engineering you're often dealing with fairly well behaved systems. If systems were well-behaved, you wouldn't need lawyers. So what can I say? I only go where there's chaos and mayhem."(22:57) On SB-826 (gender) board diversity quota in CA: "the data suggests pretty strongly, almost conclusively, that SB-826 has worked. The number of women on corporate boards in California has increased significantly. The majority of corporations in CA are now in compliance with SB-826."(24:23) On AB-979 (minorities) board diversity quota in CA: "figuring out the effect of the AB 979 is more difficult. It's very hard to separate that out from what I call the George Floyd effect."(25:21) On the constitutionality of these laws: "there's a deeper mystery here. And something that I think is really more profound. If you look objectively at both pieces of legislation, and if you ask yourself, what's the probability that the U.S. Supreme court as currently composed (a 6-3 conservative majority) would find either one of these pieces of legislation is constitutional? The answer would be a resounding no." "The fascinating thing is typically when legislation is potentially unconstitutional, everybody's jumping up and down and they're suing to get it invalidated. Here, not only is that not happening, but the vast majority of corporations are complying with legislation."(27:33) "These bills are what I would call The Miracle of Unconstitutional Legislation: "These are the most effective unconstitutional pieces of legislation that I've ever seen in American history. And I think the answer for why they've been so successful is that at least when it comes to legislating the composition of corporate boards, the majority of America is out of tune with Supreme court doctrine regarding the existence of quotas." "Diversity on corporate boards is being treated very differently to diversity in other areas of society and the parties most directly affected aren't complaining about it. It's a remarkable situation."(31:08) On stakeholder capitalism and the BRT restatement of 2019: "This is nothing new. You always had to consider all of the constituencies, otherwise you're out of business."(34:45) On Engine No. 1 proxy fight with Exxon Mobil:  "This is huge. I think going forward, every proxy contest is going to be measured as either before Exxon or after Exxon. What it demonstrates is that in today's world, you don't need a large equity position. What you really need to understand is the story that is going to resonate with the large institutional investors. Engine No. 1  had a terrific story that resonated extraordinarily well. They had the perfect target because Exxon had built up a reputation over decades as being the most arrogant corporation in the United States. They'd basically refused to listen to institutional investors. You combine that with the big push towards ESG investing, and the fact that many institutions now feel they can't afford to be on the wrong side of ESG momentum. You know, it created a situation where if you were economically and politically smart, and these guys I think are, you would be able to leverage your position by a factor of 2,500 and grab three seats on the Exxon board of directors. They did something that people thought would have been impossible. And I think it's highly innovative and you're going to see many forums of what I would call corporate electoral innovation over the next year or two. And a lot of it will wind up pushing the ESG direction."(38:04) "Look, my joke line about ESG is that given the current state of the art, it stands for Extremely Subjective Guessing"!Joseph A. Grundfest is Stanford Law School Professor and an expert on capital markets, corporate governance, and securities litigation.  You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

Intro.(1:42) - Start of interview.(2:28) - Nell's "origin story." She's the oldest of three girls, including former Harvard Law School Dean and current Professor Martha Minow. Her father, Newton Minow, was the Chairman of the FCC under JFK and authored a famous speech on the "vast wasteland" of TV (that still resonates 60 years later). She was influenced to speak out from an early age when she saw problems. Her ambition was to become a prosecutor but she moved to D.C., where she worked at the EPA and later at the White House OMB.(4:24) - On meeting Bob Monks, and being asked to join his "new startup" ISS in the mid 1980s (now the largest proxy advisory firm) to advise institutional investors on corporate governance. She didn't know much about corporate governance before joining ISS. "I arrived at the best possible time: the whole field was just beginning so I feel like George Washington or D.W.Griffith because I was there right at the start, out of pure luck." Since then, "Bob Monks and I have built and sold four different [corporate governance related] businesses."(6:57) -  On working as a shareholder activist with LENS ($100m fund) from 1990-2000: "All my career experiences have converged on system analysis: why things don't work as they are supposed to." "ISS had originally been conceived with an activist business plan, but it pivoted to focus instead on independent research for institutional investors. It was at Lens where we focused on activism."(10:23) - Strategy at Lens: "We bought stock in companies that were not living up to their potential." "About a third of companies would say that that they were already way ahead of us and had a plan in place, a third would say that the ideas were pretty good, and a third would fight us." "We did not have much AUM but we knew a lot of the institutional investors, and sometimes they would ask us to look at specific companies because they trusted us." "We sold Lens to Europe's largest institutional investor, however we kept the part we liked which was the in-house research, that became the Corporate Library."(12:43) - On starting The Corporate Library ("we called it intentionally the most non-controversial name because we had a reputation for being very provocative.") "We started by publishing reports on employment contracts of CEOs in S&P500." "My dream was to rate corporate boards like (AAA-to-junk) bonds, and that was the product that we developed, which we hoped to sell to investors [who did not buy it] but we sold them instead to D&O insurers [they loved it.]" "We later acquired GovernanceMetrics International (GMI) and took their name, and sold the whole shebang to MSCI."(17:44) - The history and focus of her current firm, ValueEdge Advisors: "We put on a conference every year for institutional investors, we prepare reports on various corporate governance issues for clients - it's sort of private label research."(18:48) - Her other focus as a movie critic. "The governance life is the frolic and detour, the movie life goes back as far as I can remember." Her favorite corporate governance movies: The Big Short, Owning Mahowny (featuring Philip Seymour Hoffman and involving the biggest bank embezzlement in Canada).(22:48) - Her take on politics in the boardroom. Discussion around her article "The Choice for CEOs on Political Issues is Not “Yes or No”, It’s “Helps the Brand or Hurts the Brand.” "If the people listening to this podcast take-away one recommendation from me it would be the following: subscribe immediately to Judd Legum's newsletter called Popular Information. He keeps track of companies that stated in January that they would not make any political contributions to candidates that would not certify the elections [and failed to live up to those promises.]" "It's no longer possible for a CEO to remain neutral."(27:10) - Her take on the "controversial" Coinbase CEO and Basecamp CEO statements.(29:04) - Her take on the rise of ESG: "It's a bit the best of times and worst of times scenario":Best of times: ESG is supplemental to GAAP (which does not measure human capital well). "The difference between CSR and ESG is that the former had the implication of being sort of a trade-off (limiting profits for some kind of a balancing test) while ESG makes no concession of any kind, it's 100% financial and 100% about assessing risk." "So any claim that ESG is against shareholder value is not well founded." The second point is that ESG is a huge issue for Millennials and the next generation... they care tremendously about this topic (relevant for employers and employees)." This has led to a significant amount of capital pouring into ESG.Worst of times: "It's such a nascent field that there is no consistency, and the ambitions are in excess of the data that's available." "There are a lot of carpetbaggers coming in and labeling themselves as ESG who don't know what they are talking about."(34:12) - Her take on the BRT corporate purpose restatement (2019) and stakeholder capitalism: "Six Reasons We Don’t Trust the New “Stakeholder” Promise from the Business Roundtable." (her article from Sept 2019). "The last thing I want is for CEOs to be making public policy and deciding how much pollutants they can put out in the air." If we had to rate general knowledge on ESG: on the "E" I would give us B- on our understanding of the relevant factors, on the "G" we could get a B+ on our understanding of governance risks, "S" is the big messy category where who knows what we are talking about." There are groups like SASB that are doing excellent work.(39:21) - Her take on boardroom diversity: "I am very supportive of the Nasdaq and Goldman Sachs approaches that are ultimately market based approaches." "I am not in favor of quotas." "I think we still have a long long way to go." "I would prefer that instead of a quota system we had a rebuttable presumption, for example: if you do not have at least a third of diverse directors in your board you should explain why not and what steps you're taking to improve." "I feel very strongly that if the CEO package is a disgrace, then you should vote no on pay, and on the members of the compensation committee - no matter if they are diverse directors." "If they can't get it right on pay, they should not be on comp committee or the board."(43:15) - Her take on private company governance and dual class shares: "I'm in favor of the market [letting the people create whatever governance and capital structures they want] but personally I would never buy limited voting stock [via dual class shares] in companies." "I am not in favor of prohibiting dual class shares but I think it's a bad idea." "I support CII's position of adding sunset provisions." "The important thing about governance is to have performance standards not design standards." "When we were grading boards of directors, the areas with most conflicts of interests [between boards and shareholders] were CEO pay [CEOs wanted less variability and shareholders want more variability] and M&A [most acquisitions don't add any value]." "Does the board make good decisions? That's the ultimate test, it's not because somebody is someone's second cousin or if there is diversity or if they put or not their governance policies on their website" "This is why I would always vote in favor of Berkshire Hathaway's board, they make good decisions."(48:08) - Her final take-away for public company directors: "We were very good at predicting what was wrong, never that good in predicting what was right. We were better at finding evidence of terrible rather than evidence of greatness, and that's why insurers loved our product because it was about risk." "You can get 90% of your way to governance by looking at CEO pay."(49:35) - The books that have greatly influenced her life:The Psychology of Everyday Things, by Donald Norman (1988)Bird by Bird, by Anne Lamott (1994)(50:31) - The movies that have mostly influenced her life:Sullivan's Travels, directed by Preston Sturges (1941)Inherit the Wind, directed by Stanley Kramer (1960) *she wrote a law review article on this movie: An Idea is a Greater Monument Than a Cathedral: Deciding How We Know What We Know in Inherit the Wind (1995)(52:17) - Her mentors (outside her family):Robert A. Monks (business partner of 35 years).(54:05) - Her favorite quotes:"It is not your responsibility to finish the work [of perfecting the world], but you are not free to desist from it either" Pirkei Avot  ("you don't have to do everything, but you have to do something")"The funniest mortals and the kindest are those who are most aware of the baffle of being, don't kid themselves our care is consolable but believe a laugh is less heartless than tears.” by W.H. Auden in a poem called “Tonight at Seven-Thirty." ("when corporate misbehavior is so outrageous it helps if I can laugh at it, and then get angry...")"Always take the high road, it will either shame the other side into good behavior or it will drive them crazy" Her mom.(56:08) - Her "unusual habit" that she loves: San Diego's Comi Con (she never misses it, and calls it the "Iowa Caucus of popular culture"). "The people there are the most passionate and independent minded fans."(56:55) - The living person she most admires: her parents. They exemplify what is to have a full life: "Speak truth to power, to be part of the solution, and to be always there for your family."Nell Minow is the Vice Chair of ValueEdge Advisors. She was Co-founder and Director of GMI Ratings from 2010 to 2014, and was Editor and Co-founder of its predecessor firm, The Corporate Library, from 2000 to 2010. Prior to co-founding The Corporate Library, Ms. Minow was a Principal of Lens, a $100 million investment firm that took positions in underperforming companies and used shareholder activism to increase their value. Her other professional experience includes serving as a Principal of Lens Investment Management, as President of Institutional Shareholder Services, Inc., and as an attorney at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the Office of Management and Budget, and the Department of Justice. If you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __You can follow Evan on social media at:Twitter @evanepsteinSubstack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

Intro.(1:37) - Start of interview(2:19) - Jon's "origin story." He started as a sports journalist, later became press secretary to then NYC Comptroller Jay Goldin. His transition to asset management, founding his firm Sinclair Capital and leading the Investor Responsibility Research Center Institute (IRRCi) (succeeded by the Weinberg Center) focused on ESG and capital market issues.(4:48) - His experience with the NYC pension funds, CII and how he addresses the different "stages of governance" described in his book "Moving Beyond Modern Portfolio Theory: Investing That Matters." His historical perspective on corporate governance from the Dutch East India Company (1602). HBS Professors Myles Mace: "Boards are ornaments on a corporate Christmas tree" and Peter Drucker: "The one thing that all boards have in common is that they do not work." His experience with Creditors Committee at WorldCom. Corporate governance in the 1980s changed for two reasons:In a capitalist society whoever has capital, has power. By the 1980s, institutional investors became very influential with more assets under management.This was prompted in part by the greenmail scandals. In one year (1983-1984) this practice extracted $4bn from US corporationsThat prompted the formation of the Council of Institutional Investors (1985).(13:04) -  The disagreement is not over corporate governance, but rather over "optimal" corporate governance. This is so because capital is changing. "75%-94% of your returns is due to the systematic nature of the markets." The problem with MPT.(17:41) - The concept of "Beta Activism"(19:54) - The focus of his book "Moving Beyond MPT": "This is not a modest book: we are trying to redefine what investing is." "Stewardship for the benefit of the marketplace as a whole, to deal with systematic risk issues that  that we can't deal with mere diversification." More holistic and long term vision of how to improve the risk return of the market as a whole.(21:41) - Shareholder activism on ESG and sustainability ("Beta Activism"). Examples: Engine No.1 on Exxon, Climate Change. "There will also be changes on how shareholder resolutions will be crafted." For example: Yum Brands  on the systemic effects of the use of antibiotics in its supply chain by the end of 2021 (proposed by Paul Rissman and the Shareholder Commons). From individual companies to global/industry levels. Another example, new safety standards after the Vale scandals. "The problem is that somehow in the 1990s/2000s the shareholders figured out how to be first and last in the line."(26:16) - Debate on corporate purpose (shareholder primacy / stakeholder capitalism / benefit corporations). "I think the person who jumpstarted this discussion was Lynn Stout with her book the shareholder value myth." "You have to care about how companies are dealing with the health of the system as a whole." "But I still think that the governance of a company needs a final decision: that's the shareholders [on how to maximize the residual benefit but taking care of everyone else to do that." "I've always thought it was a false dichotomy [to think about shareholder primacy vs stakeholder capitalism.]" Alex Edman's book "Grow the Pie": shareholder value as a subset of societal value. Shareholders are at the back of the line.(30:30) - His perspective on international corporate governance trends. Cross-influence between the US and Europe. Asia. Taking into accounts culture. The last US administration tampered down ESG in the last 4 years.(35:29) - His take on public vs private companies (Wall Street vs Silicon Valley). The advent of dual class shares in Silicon Valley: "founder syndrome." There are different risk desires and appetites for smaller growth companies vs larger mature companies.(39:43) - His thoughts on western vs authoritarian vs the next dominant economic paradigm. "Confucian curse of living through interesting times."(43:15) - His favorite book: Fifth Business, by Robertson Davies (1970)(43:41) - His favorite play: As You Like It, by William Shakespeare(45:45) - His mentors:His sister (personal)Jay Goldin (professional)(47:38) - His favorite quote: "It's better to be approximately right than precisely wrong" and "Work hard and be nice to people" (new Michael Franti song)(48:30) - His "unusual habit": He loves to cook.(49:26) - The living person he most admires: his wife.(49:56) - His views on the future of NY post pandemic.Jon Lukomnik is the Founder of Sinclair Capital. Jon chairs the audit committee of the Van Eck mutual funds, is a core member of the Funston Advisory team, and serves on the Deloitte Audit Quality Advisory Committee. He has a long track record in corporate governance having served as an investment advisor for the New York City’s pension funds, a managing director of a top ten hedge fund and a director for public and private companies, non-profit corporations and litigation trusts. His new book, co-authored with Professor James Hawley, is “Moving Beyond Modern Portfolio Theory: Investing That Matters”. If you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __Follow Evan on:Twitter @evanepsteinSubstack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

Intro.(1:12) - Start of interview(1:54) - Janine's "origin story."(2:25) - Her path from law school to plaintiff litigation work, representing and training employers, and the founding of Emtrain.(5:40) - Her thoughts on lawyers transitioning to entrepreneurship, and her personal story with Emtrain: "I had this day job that was pretty directionally consistent with what I wanted to do in a technology aided fashion." "It was a big deal when I quit my day job in 2006 and all of a sudden there were five of us employed by Emtrain."(7:02) -  "The real transitioning point was in 2016-2017, after watching the SF trial of Ellen Pao v. Kleiner Perkins (2015), that seemed to me a seminal point. The beginning of harassment law as we know it began with another huge SF trial, the Baker Mackenzie case (1994). I watched both trials so I thought this would become another inflection point."(7:40) - I predicted the #MeToo movement in an article that I published on Medium. "Women everywhere are going to be so upset. The law is not an adequate channel to address these issues in real time, and social media is going to become the avenue to bring more accountability."(8:20) - "This is when I decided to take some outside capital for Emtrain." Her vision of Emtrain, and their new technology approach with predictive analytics and benchmarks.(13:03) - How technology has impacted her business offerings. Scaling from a one-dimensional compliance training program to two-way communication and multi-stakeholder engagement.(15:03) - Impact and take-aways from Emtrain's 2021 Workplace Culture Report (based on 20 million employee responses on workplace).(18:44) - Her take on the impact of COVID-19 and WFH policies in the workplace: "We have to be more intentional in virtual settings." We will have to navigate the "in-group / out-group" challenges and dynamics.(21:16) - The role of the board on ethics, respect and inclusion. "Laws follow people, people don't follow laws." "Younger generations are social justice warriors." Reputation impacts the corporate brand.(24:33) - The impact of ESG in her industry. "We are a tool in the tool chest to support and manage the corporate brand and how they're perceived by stakeholders."(27:23) - Her thoughts on the BRT 2019 restatement of corporate purpose and the rise of employee activism.(31:02) - Her take on corporate boardroom diversity. "If Theranos would've had any woman on its board, maybe she would've called b*%&t on Elizabeth Holmes". "Different people see different things." "What about the Purdue case, the social consequences are huge." "Compiling diversity metrics is a start, but that's like crawling. Where we need to go is understanding the KPIs and dynamics to reach a better trajectory."(38:19) - How she came up with the framework used by Emtrain. It's all about organizational behavior. Her take on the difference between US and European corporate approach to social issues.(40:48) - Her take on the recent exodus of people and companies from SF/Bay Area/CA and why she thinks CA will be fine.(44:23) - Her favorite books:Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand (1957)Sci-fi and fantasy books.(47:13) - Her mentors: "I unfortunately was late in the game on having mentors" Recently I've connected with some great advisors:Frits Habermann, ex CTO of Lynda.com (acquired by LinkedIn)Steve Roop, formerly with Glassdoor.(48:52) - Her favorite quote: "Our strengths are our weaknesses and our weaknesses are our strengths"(49:33) - Her "unusual habit": I twirl my hair when I'm thinking!  She loves reading ("that's what winds me down")(50:24) - The living person she most admires right now: Bill Gates.(52:45) - Her parting thoughts for directors on how to deal with social issues:  "Every board member should think about their ethics, respect and inclusion as part of their reputation. They need to start operationalizing these matters within the organization."Janine Yancey is the Founder & CEO of Emtrain, a California based online workplace culture platform that helps companies diagnose, benchmark and prevent bad workplace culture outcomes. Prior to founding Emtrain, Janine was a partner at Employment Law Partners where she specialized in solving labor and employment problems for high tech firms including Google, Intuit and a variety of start-ups. Janine also worked as counsel at Liebert Cassidy Whitmore, served as Board Member of the Northern California Human Resources Association, and authored The HR Handbook, designed to help young tech companies navigate workplace laws.Janine earned her JD at University of California Hastings School of Law and a BA in English and Political Science at the University of California Berkeley.If you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __Follow Evan on:Twitter @evanepsteinSubstack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

Intro.(1:21) - Start of interview(2:07) - David's "origin story."(3:42) - His take on lawyers pursuing "non-traditional" careers. "I think that ESG as a career path is going to explode. This is only the beginning."(5:04) - Paul Weiss' Sustainability & ESG Advisory Practice Group.(9:02) -  How did "ESG" become a core topic of corporate governance? "There has been tremendous pressure on organizations to perform better, to be better corporate citizens." "It coalesced gravitationally in large part because of social media." "The investment community needed an organizing force."(16:22) - His take on the "purpose of the corporation" debate (shareholder capitalism vs stakeholder capitalism). "Companies are being held to account for their promises and obligations." "You can't make empty statements anymore." "The pressure shift is severe from a reputational risk." "I don't know of a non-financial consequence at a corporation, everything has a financial consequence." "We need to bring the legal community up to speed to where the business community is." "I call this phenomenon the Super Law: How ethical obligations can shape business and your practice."(22:28) - His take on board diversity. "It's the best example of Super Law." "The genie is out of the bottle on this issue." Nasdaq diversity proposal to the SEC. "One of the dirty little secrets of ESG is that the numbers are not audited, for the most part." "This will be the decade of reckoning... companies will be re-reporting."(30:08) - His take on the roundtables that he's led for the past 20 years (started when he was at Thomson Reuters, FiscalNote, etc). The idea is to convene cross-functional people to talk off-the-record about issues in a real way (private settings). In ESG, every company according to the FT can both a sinner and a saint.(37:13) - His take on the Biden's Administration approach to ESG. Re-signed to Paris Accord (climate change is key) and will deal with a lot of the "S" in the ESG. The EU and UK regulators have been active, and have been regulating US companies. He counsels clients that they have to own ESG programs (consistent policies and procedures).(42:39) - His parting thoughts for directors on ESG matters: 1) Education (learn non-legal components of ESG), 2) They can't rely on D&O insurance in this era. Board members are working really hard now. They can't just rely on management on these matters.(46:55) - His favorite books:Snow Falling on Cedars, by David Guterson (1995)Wherever You Go, There You Are, by Jon Kabat-Zinn (1994)Any book by Robert Caro ("a master at understanding power")(49:02) - His mentors:Brad Karp (Chairman of Paul Weiss) "a true beacon of the legal profession""I take the good and leave the rest from anybody I know" "I've learned some the best things in my life from some of the worst people that I've encountered."(51:22) - His favorite quotes:"You can't plan for the future until you predict the present" (everybody wants to move forward, very few people want to do the hard work of self-evaluation -- where you are now relative where you should be)"That's arrogance without portfolio" (in reference to arrogant people!)(53:21) - His "unusual habit": "open to everything and attached to nothing."  You should be open to experiences that you don't think will help you. Example: he's a professional chocolate taster.(55:09) - Which living person does he most admire: As a group, healthcare and essential workers.David Curran is Chief Sustainability and Environmental, Social and Governance (ESG) Officer at Paul, Weiss. In this role, Dave has dual responsibilities – to work with the firm’s lawyers to lead its Sustainability and ESG Advisory Practice Group, and also to develop and promote the firm’s internal ESG practices.Dave is a recognized leader in helping complex organizations build resilience. In addition to his work in the ESG space, he has more than 30 years of experience in legal, technology, compliance, risk and ethics roles. Dave has led many popular Thought Leadership conversations with senior executives on a variety of topics where business and technology intersect with the legal, compliance and risk ecosystems, including Transforming Law, Big Data, #MeToo and many others.Dave serves as co-chair of the New York State Bar Association’s ESG Committee, which aims to educate and engage New York lawyers, law students and faculty on ESG practices and developments through thought leadership and robust educational programs.If you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __Follow Evan on:Twitter @evanepsteinSubstack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License You can follow Evan on social media at:X: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__To support this podcast you can join as a subscriber of the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at https://evanepstein.substack.com/__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License