

Under the Tree: A Seminar on Freedom with Bill Ayers
Under the Tree with Bill Ayers
“Under the Tree” is a new podcast that focuses on freedom—a complex, layered, dynamic, and often contradictory idea—and takes you on a journey each week to fundamentally reimagine how we can bring freedom and liberation to life in relation to schools and schooling, equality and justice, and learning to live together in peace.
Our podcast opens a crawl-space, a fugitive field and firmament where we can both explore our wildest freedom dreams, and organize for a liberating insurgency. "Under the Tree" is a seminar, and it runs the gamut from current events to the arts, from history lessons to scientific inquiries, and from essential readings to frequent guest speakers.
We’re in the midst of the largest social uprising in US history—and what better time to dive headfirst into the wreckage, figuring out as we go how to support the rebellion, name it, and work together to realize its most radical possibilities—and to reach its farthest horizons?
Our podcast opens a crawl-space, a fugitive field and firmament where we can both explore our wildest freedom dreams, and organize for a liberating insurgency. "Under the Tree" is a seminar, and it runs the gamut from current events to the arts, from history lessons to scientific inquiries, and from essential readings to frequent guest speakers.
We’re in the midst of the largest social uprising in US history—and what better time to dive headfirst into the wreckage, figuring out as we go how to support the rebellion, name it, and work together to realize its most radical possibilities—and to reach its farthest horizons?
Episodes
Mentioned books

May 7, 2025 • 53min
NOlympics with Jules Boykoff
Dave Zirin (“Edge of Sports;” and Under the Tree, Episode #58 ) gave a delightful and provocative talk at a conference a few years ago called “Will There Be Sports Under Socialism?” The short answer—of course!—human beings have played games and sports from the beginning, and there’s no stopping us. But capitalism has distorted and mangled our natural desire and capacity to play in its relentless drive for profit. An ongoing case-in-point is the Olympic Games, flying under the noble banner of internationalism while on the ground exploiting athletes and workers, destroying host communities, increasing militarism, and more. Dave introduced us to Jules Boykoff and the movement to defend local communities against the steam-roller that is the 2028 Los Angeles games. Jules is an academic, author, activist and former professional soccer player whose writing focuses on the politics of the Olympics, social movements, the suppression of dissent, and the role of the mass media in US politics, especially regarding coverage of climate change. He is part of the coalition of community organizations (LA Tenants Union, Black Lives Matter, Sunrise Movement, DSA) founded in 2017 to oppose staging the 2028 Summer Olympics, and the author of NOlympians: Inside the Fight Against Capitalist Mega-Sports in Los Angeles, Tokyo and Beyond..

Apr 30, 2025 • 1h 16min
The Invisible Institute with Maira Khwaja and Trina Reynolds-Tyler
The Invisible Institute—with its evocative and mysterious name—exists in the proud tradition of “guerrilla journalism,” a difficult to define or pigeon-hole practice of human rights inquiry and documentation. This dazzling collection of journalists, archivists, writers, thinkers, organic intellectuals-without-portfolio, organizers, activists, data analysts and other collaborators pioneer a form of journalism based on long-term relationship-building, deep inquiry, and on-going interrogation of our shared social/political world. They are investigative reporters, multimedia storytellers, human rights champions, and facilitators of difficult public conversations. The Invisible Institute has won two Pulitzer Prizes, and produced a film that was a finalist for a short documentary Academy Award. They also won a landmark court decision, Kalven v. Chicago, in 2014 establishing that in Illinois police misconduct files are public information. We’re joined by two brilliant members of the Invisible Institute team, Maira Khwaja, Director of Public Strategy, and Trina Reynolds-Tyler, Director of Data.

Apr 23, 2025 • 47min
The Right to Think at All with Katherine Franke
Thousands of student visas cancelled by the government! Legal residents snatched off the streets by masked agents, detained and deported! Federal research grants to universities scrapped! The government asserting a special right to oversee academic departments and curriculum decisions!The frequency of events like these across the country are dizzying, and the pace is accelerating. Academic freedom is in the cross-hairs. The First Amendment says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”Academic freedom falls within that scope, but goes far beyond: academic freedom is the right to interrogate the world, the right to teach, and the right to learn. Academic freedom is the right to think at all. We’re joined by Katherine Franke, renowned law professor, courageous scholar, and human rights champion who has endured a relentless campaign of threat and harassment because of her intrepid support of Palestinian rights.

Apr 16, 2025 • 57min
Big Data/Predatory Data with Anita Say Chan
In this engaging discussion, Anita Say Chan, a feminist and decolonial scholar, dives into the complex intersections of big data and eugenics. She highlights the historical roots of data practices that echo harmful ideologies, urging a shift to community-centered approaches. Anita critiques tech billionaires' alignment with oppressive agendas while advocating for justice-driven alternatives. She also emphasizes the limitations of statistics in capturing individual dignity, promoting empathy over data in our quest for a more inclusive society.

Apr 9, 2025 • 55min
Everything for Everyone with M.E.O’Brien and Eman Abdelhadi
What is your North Star? What are you fighting for, and what are you struggling to overcome, or leave behind? The goal is not a precise and detailed roadmap—that way lies dogma, orthodoxy, and worse—but rather a vision and a hope with which to gauge and partially frame our work in the here and now. The great Uruguay revolutionary, Edwardo Galeano, tells a story of being confronted by a person accusing him of being a utopian, and asking contemptuously, “What good is Utopia?” Galeano says, “It’s true that if I walk 2 steps toward Utopia, Utopia walks 2 steps away, and if I walk 10 steps toward her, she walks 10 steps away. So what good is Utopia?” His reply: “It’s good for walking.” We’re joined in conversation by M.E. O’Brien and Eman Abdelhadi, authors of Everything for Everyone: An Oral History of the New York Commune 2052-2072, a novel that is so imaginative, so challenging, and so surprising that it reorders our conception of what’s possible to write—and to think.

Apr 2, 2025 • 1h 7min
A Radical Reframing with Jeanne Theoharis and Erik Wallenberg
When a popular leader emerges from the whirlwind of a struggle for justice, power always stands in opposition—ignoring the rising demands where possible, ridiculing and coopting, and eventually fighting with everything in their arsenal. When the popular leader is gone—murdered or passed on—power makes them into a mythical hero while simultaneously working furiously to strip away the radical content that energized and guided the struggle. Joining us this week are Jeanne Theoharis and Erik Wallenberg, one of Pilsen Community Book’s worker owners who co-authored a dazzling guide to Chicago’s Black Freedom Struggle which appeared in The Chicago Tribune. Jeanne is Distinguished Professor of Political Science at Brooklyn College, and author of the bestselling book The Rebellious Life of Mrs. Rosa Parks, and the new King of the North: Martin Luther King Jr.’s Life of Struggle Outside the South (The New Press).

Mar 19, 2025 • 1h 5min
Beyond Prison with Jimmy Soto
James (Jimmy) Soto was released from Stateville Prison in November, 2023, after suffering 42 years and 2 months in custody for a crime he did not commit. A month before his release he had received his bachelor’s degree from Northwestern University. He and his co-defendant, Tyrone Ayala, also exonerated, were the longest serving wrongfully convicted people in Illinois history. At our Homecoming Party for Jimmy several men toasted him, and thanked him for the legal research he did as a jailhouse lawyer for them while inside. Knowing that Jimmy was planning to pursue a law degree, one of his compatriots said, “I saw what this brother did with a yellow pad and a pencil, now with a law degree, Look Out!” After his release, Soto said he felt “elated” but also full of “righteous anger…It should not have taken 42 years for this to happen.” A talented writer, artist, public speaker, and thinker, Jimmy Soto is a Justice Fellow at Beyond Prisons at the University of Chicago, and a paralegal at Northwestern School of Law.

Mar 5, 2025 • 1h 24min
How We Get Free with Barbara Smith
Barbara Smith is a Movement legend— the kind of courageous activist, powerful thinker, persistent organizer and whole-hearted doer who keeps the Movement moving. She is co-founder of the Combahee River Collective and co-author of the acclaimed 1977 statement that has been one of the most influential Black feminist documents of the twentieth century—“Our politics evolve from a healthy love for ourselves, our sisters, and our community, which allows us to continue our struggle and work.” She’s been a freedom fighter for over half a century—a long time in the life of a person, but, as she knows, the blink of an eye in the life of a struggle, and so she is neither nostalgic for a ship that’s already left the shore nor interested in burnishing a legacy. Rather, she is leaning forward—on the move and in the mix—still fighting for peace and freedom and joy and justice, still asking the most insistent and burning questions: How do we name this political moment? Where do we go from here? What does the known demand of us now? Here is Barbara Smith in conversation with Bill Ayers on December 5, 2024 at the Sanctuary for Independent Media in Troy, New York.

Feb 19, 2025 • 1h 1min
Culture/Counterculture with Alex Zamalin
Human beings are suspended in webs-of-significance—we make sense and we make meaning—and culture is nothing more nor less than the webs. Those webs-of-significance are alive, forever trembling and vibrating, evolving and regenerating, changing and developing as messages and stories and ways-of-being vibrate across the surface. So culture can never stand still, never sit static or inert; rather it is always on the move, in the mix, and on the make—dynamic and churning and charging forward. The joy of the churn, and the burden of resistance, re-imagination, and reconstruction lives within the counter-culture. We’re joined by Alex Zamalin in a wide-ranging conversation about culture, counter-culture, and the quest for revolutionary freedom.

Feb 5, 2025 • 52min
To be Close to Books with Emily Drabinski
In America is in the Heart, Carlos Bulosan describes his good fortune at landing a job in a library where he could be close to books: “I was beginning to understand what was going on around me, and the darkness that had covered my present life was lifting.” Ursula Le Guin writes of a library’s sacredness: “its accessibility, its publicness.” She calls the public library a public trust, and continues: “A great library is freedom,.” We’re honored to be joined in conversation with Emily Drabinski, past president of the American Library Association, and a brilliant and intrepid defender of the public square.