The Deconstructionists

In this long-awaited and nearly lost conversation, John sits down with Pastor Joe Ingle, a longtime prison minister, advocate, and spiritual companion to people on death row. Joe’s work challenges our assumptions about justice, punishment, compassion, and what it means to show up for people society has thrown away.This interview was recorded last year and was almost lost forever when the laptop it was saved on died unexpectedly. Miraculously, the file was recovered just in time — and we are finally able to share Part 1 of this important two-part conversation.Following our recent episode with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, who offered insight into spiritual care within the military, Joe continues our exploration of ministry in difficult, often unseen places — where grief, hope, and humanity collide in profound ways.In This EpisodeIn Part 1, we cover:Joe’s early call to prison ministryHow he became involved with individuals facing executionWhat it actually looks like to walk with someone on death rowThe spiritual, emotional, and human complexities of prison chaplaincyHow society frames “criminals” — and what we miss when we refuse to see their humanityThe cost of compassion, and why Joe refuses to turn awayWhy faith traditions often struggle to handle justice and mercy wellThe surprising places Joe has seen grace show up behind barsWhy This Conversation MattersJoe’s work invites us to confront just how uncomfortable — and necessary — compassion can be. His stories shine light on systems we rarely see and raise hard questions about accountability, punishment, redemption, and what Christian faith looks like when lived out in the shadows.For listeners who appreciated our recent conversation with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, Joe’s perspective provides a powerful complement. Together, their episodes explore ministry in spaces most people never encounter, each revealing a different facet of what deep presence and care look like.About Pastor Joe InglePastor Joe Ingle has spent decades ministering to incarcerated individuals across the United States, particularly those on death row. His work centers on accompaniment, advocacy, and restoring dignity to people society has deemed irredeemable. Joe is also an author and activist committed to criminal justice reform and the abolition of the death penalty.Links & ResourcesGrab a copy of Joe's book, "Too Close to the Flame: With the Condemned inside the Southern Killing Machine." Support the ShowIf this episode resonates with you, please consider:Sharing it with a friendLeaving a 5-star reviewSupporting the podcast on PatreonFollowing us on Instagram, X, TikTok, and YouTubeYour support helps new listeners find these important stories.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, we continue our conversation with Army Chaplain Lieutenant Colonel Kerstin Hedlund. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, we recommend starting there for context.Kerstin has spent years serving alongside soldiers in moments of grief, trauma, transition, and deep personal struggle. Her work isn’t about offering easy answers. It’s about presence, listening, and holding space for real human complexity.This conversation is for anyone who has wrestled with suffering, loss, or disillusionment. It’s also for those who care deeply about someone who has served.Kerstin’s insight offers a grounded and deeply humane perspective on what it means to stay present with one another through the hardest parts of life.Resources & Further ReadingIf you’d like to explore more about topics mentioned in this episode:“Soul Repair: Recovering from Moral Injury After War” – Rita Nakashima Brock & Gabriella LettiniThe Moral Injury Project – Syracuse UniversityVA National Center for PTSD: https://www.ptsd.va.govMilitary Chaplaincy Overview: https://www.goarmy.com/chaplainConnect with UsWebsite: thedeconstructionists.orgInstagram: @deconstructionistspodcastX (Twitter): @deconstructcastSupport the show: patreon.com/deconstructionistsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode SummaryIn this two-part conversation, John sits down with Pastor Kerstin Hedlund, a U.S. Army Chaplain whose story offers a rare window into what faith looks like when it’s lived out in the hardest and most human places.From her path into military chaplaincy to the deep questions that arise in the presence of trauma and moral injury, Kerstin’s perspective brings theology down to earth — into barracks, hospitals, and battle zones — where hope, compassion, and grief often collide.Together they explore what it means to serve others in a system defined by hierarchy and discipline, how empathy and faith can survive amid loss, and why doubt and mystery might actually make us more compassionate people.Why It MattersPastor Kerstin’s story reminds us that faith isn’t tested in seminaries or sanctuaries — it’s tested in the trenches of real life. Her honesty about doubt, fatigue, and renewal challenges the neat formulas we often attach to belief and invites us toward something deeper, more embodied, and more human.Listen Now🎧 Available wherever you get your podcasts.🔗 More episodes at TheDeconstructionists.comFollow & Support📸 Instagram — @thedeconstructionistspodcast🐦 X / Twitter — @deconstructcast☕ Patreon — Join for bonus episodes, behind-the-scenes discussions, and community Q&AsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode: Hell, the Devil, and Atonement TheoriesWhat exactly do Christians mean when they talk about hell? Where did the idea of the devil come from, and why does it look so different across the Bible? And why are there so many different theories of atonement—Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection—when most of us only ever hear one?In this episode, we dig deep into the history, language, and theology behind three core ideas that have shaped Christianity for centuries:Hell – from Sheol and Gehenna in the Hebrew Bible to Dante’s Inferno and modern evangelical preaching.The Devil – tracing the figure from the Hebrew Bible’s “accuser” to the cosmic enemy of God in later Christian thought.Atonement Theories – surveying models from Christus Victor to Moral Influence to Penal Substitution, and asking how these different views reveal the diverse ways Christians have tried to understand salvation.This conversation explores how these concepts developed over time, why they remain so influential, and what happens when we step back to ask whether we’ve been handed the whole story.Helpful Resources & Further ReadingIf you want to dive deeper, here are some books and articles we recommend:On HellEdward Fudge – The Fire That ConsumesRobin Parry – The Evangelical UniversalistJerry L. Walls – Hell: The Logic of DamnationOn the Devil & SatanElaine Pagels – The Origin of SatanHenry Ansgar Kelly – Satan: A BiographyArchibald Robertson – The Devil: His Origin and His FallOn Atonement TheoriesGustaf Aulén – Christus VictorN.T. Wright – The Day the Revolution BeganFleming Rutledge – The Crucifixion: Understanding the Death of Jesus ChristTony Jones – A Better Atonement (shorter, accessible resource)Broader ResourcesBart Ehrman – Heaven and Hell: A History of the AfterlifeC. S. Lewis – The Great Divorce (a classic imaginative take, though not academic)The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entries on “Hell,” “Satan,” and “Atonement” (for an open-access scholarly overview).Connect with UsWebsite: thedeconstructionists.orgInstagram & X: @deconstructcastSpecial music by Forrest Clay from the Recover EPSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this conversation, the host tackles the controversial topic of deconstruction, reframing it as a vital and human process rather than a sign of faith's demise. He discusses the roots of this phenomenon, often stemming from personal pain and outdated theology. Addressing common misconceptions, he argues that questioning beliefs can strengthen faith. The episode explores historical figures who questioned their faith, emphasizing that genuine inquiry should be welcomed by churches. Ultimately, listeners are reassured that deconstruction can lead to a more authentic spiritual journey.

The podcast dives deep into the claim that the Bible condemns same-sex relationships. It unpacks key passages, revealing that many are rooted in cultural contexts of abuse rather than consensual love. The host explains how the concept of marriage evolved and argues that ancient texts focus more on injustice than sexual orientation. By examining translations and meanings, it challenges fundamentalist views, emphasizing the importance of context and urging compassion over exclusion. Ultimately, it promotes a reading of scripture centered on love and understanding.

In Part Two of our interview with Sarah Hurwitz, we dive deeper into the big questions raised in Here All Along. Drawing on her experiences in both politics and faith, Sarah reflects on the role of ritual, the meaning of community, and how spiritual practices can ground us in an unsteady world.In this episode, we discuss:How Jewish rituals and practices can bring balance to modern life.The challenge and beauty of faith communities today.Lessons from her time working with President Obama’s speechwriting team and Michelle Obama.How wisdom traditions can help us wrestle with meaning, identity, and purpose.About Sarah HurwitzSarah Hurwitz served as a senior speechwriter for President Barack Obama and as chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama from 2010 to 2017. Since leaving the White House, she has become a leading voice in exploring spirituality and Jewish identity for a new generation.📖 Book: Here All Along (Amazon)website: https://www.sarahhurwitz.net/🌐 Author Page: Penguin Random House – Sarah HurwitzStay connected with The Deconstructionists and never miss an episode:🎧 Apple Podcasts🎧 Spotify🌐 Official Website📱 Follow us on Instagram, X / Twitter, and FacebookSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this first half of our conversation with Sarah Hurwitz—author, former White House speechwriter, and chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama—we explore her journey from the political stage to a deeply personal exploration of faith. Sarah was part of President Obama’s speechwriting team, helping craft some of his most memorable addresses, before turning her attention to spirituality and Jewish identity.Her latest book, Here All Along: Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a Deeper Connection to Life—in Judaism (After Finally Choosing to Look There), invites readers to rediscover ancient wisdom and reimagine what faith can mean in the modern world.In Part One, we talk about:Sarah’s path from politics to spirituality.What drew her to reconnect with her Jewish roots.The inspiration and process behind writing Here All Along.Why ancient traditions can still speak powerfully today.About Sarah HurwitzSarah Hurwitz served as a senior speechwriter for President Barack Obama and as chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama from 2010 to 2017. Since leaving the White House, she has become a leading voice in exploring spirituality and Jewish identity for a new generation.📖 Book: Here All Along (Amazon)website: https://www.sarahhurwitz.net/🌐 Author Page: Penguin Random House – Sarah HurwitzStay connected with The Deconstructionists and never miss an episode:🎧 Apple Podcasts🎧 Spotify🌐 Official Website📱 Follow us on Instagram, X / Twitter, and FacebookSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode SummaryThe Bible is often treated as if it arrived perfectly bound, leather-covered, and gold-edged, straight from heaven. But the reality is far more complex—and far more interesting.In this episode, we dig into the real history of how the Bible was formed—from its earliest writings to the process of canonization, from the Apocrypha to translation controversies, and why no one alive today has ever held an original manuscript.We’ll talk about:• When the books were likely written• Who scholars think wrote them• Why certain books were included or excluded• The political and theological forces that shaped the canon• How translation is never neutral• Why inerrancy is a recent idea in Christian historyBy the end, you’ll see the Bible not as a static, untouchable artifact, but as a living record shaped by people, history, culture, and language.Key Topics Covered• The Bible as a library, not a single book• Timeline of Old and New Testament composition• The development of the Jewish Scriptures and Christian canon• The role of councils and church politics in determining canon• The Apocrypha—what it is and why it’s in some Bibles but not others• How the Dead Sea Scrolls changed what we know about biblical history• Why we don’t have original manuscripts, and how scholars reconstruct the text• Major translation milestones—from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate to the King James Version to modern editions• How the concept of biblical inerrancy only took root in the late 19th–early 20th centuriesPrimary Sources & ScholarshipThe research for this episode draws from respected biblical scholars, historians, and textual critics, including:Canon Formation & Authorship• Bart D. Ehrman – Jesus, Interrupted; Misquoting Jesus; Lost Scriptures• John Barton – A History of the Bible: The Story of the World’s Most Influential Book• Bruce M. Metzger – The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance• Lee Martin McDonald – The Biblical Canon: Its Origin, Transmission, and AuthorityDating & Historical Context• Paul’s letters: c. 50–60 CE• Gospel of Mark: c. 65–70 CE• Matthew & Luke: c. 80–90 CE• John: c. 90–100 CE• Revelation: c. 95 CE• John J. Collins – Introduction to the Hebrew BibleDead Sea Scrolls• Lawrence H. Schiffman – Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls• James VanderKam – The Dead Sea Scrolls TodayExcluded & Apocryphal Texts• Marvin Meyer – The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus• Karen L. King – The Gospel of Mary of Magdala• Timothy Michael Law – When God Spoke Greek: The Septuagint and the Making of the Christian BibleTextual Criticism & Manuscripts• Daniel B. Wallace – works on New Testament textual variants and manuscript dating• Eldon Jay Epp – Perspectives on New Testament Textual CriticismTranslation History & Inerrancy• Peter Enns – The Bible Tells Me So• Kenton L. Sparks – God’s Word in Human Words• Mark Noll – The Civil War as a Theological CrisisSpecial music by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Find it anywhere you find your music! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

🧵 Episode Summary:In Part 2 of our conversation with Bailey Krawczyk, we move from the experience of life inside Hillsong to the harrowing process of getting out. Bailey opens up about the aftermath of leaving, the emotional toll of speaking out in the Hillsong documentary, and the backlash from those still inside the movement.We also explore the broader systems that allowed abuse and control to flourish unchecked—and why naming these systems is the first step toward healing.🔑 Key Themes:The trauma of leaving a high-control religious groupPsychological aftermath: shame, guilt, grief, and recoveryThe media spotlight and what it didn’t showHow systems of power protect abusive leadershipDeconstructing your faith after spiritual betrayal🧑‍💼 About the Guest:Bailey Krawczyk continues to advocate for survivors of spiritual and institutional abuse. Her story has resonated with thousands of others who have walked away from toxic faith environments in search of something more whole, more honest, and more human.📌 Resources Mentioned:Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed [Discovery+ / Hulu]https://www.instagram.com/baileykrawczyk/Film: https://vimeo.com/1088719956[Book recommendation] When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat[Podcast] Leaving Hillsong[Resource] ICSA: International Cultic Studies Association – www.icsahome.com🔁 Follow & Subscribe:If this conversation resonated with you, don’t forget to follow, rate, and review The Deconstructionists wherever you get your podcasts. Share this episode with someone who might be ready to hear it.Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover E.P.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy