Always Be Testing

Rob Pinkerton, CMO of AI-powered sales platform Seismic and former Oracle and Morningstar executive, explores how AI is reshaping buyer behavior. He discusses why sales and marketing must unite, why clicks and MQLs are losing value, and how authenticity, human connection, and trustworthy content can stand out in an AI-saturated world. He also challenges self-service models and reimagines the CMO as a company-wide leader.

In this episode of Always the Testing Podcast, host Tye DeGrange talks shop with Dave Yovanno, CEO of impact.com, a partner marketing platform serving about 6,000 brands, including Walmart, Target and 60 banks. The platform has visibility into about $1T in GMV, roughly $200B of it partner-referred. Dave grew up in a blue-collar family in Cleveland and joined the Navy to pay for college. He later helped ValueClick acquire early affiliate networks BeFree and Commission Junction, then became impact.com’s CEO in 2017, when it had about 200 employees.Together, Tye and Dave discuss why Dave advises choosing your next opportunity by who you’ll work with first and what second, and how partnerships have moved from the “sand between the rocks” to a main course. They explore why buyers now trust creators and reviewers over brand messaging, and why brands must let trusted partners carry their story. Dave also explains why he sees AI as a tailwind: as search shifts to an “answer era,” LLMs cite creators and publishers rather than brand copy, and brands can use GEO tools like Evertune to find and activate the partners AI already cites. He previews the product roadmap, including creator storefronts, Meta amplification, measurement beyond last click, and a seller program opening Walmart’s 100,000+ seller brands to partnerships. The conversation closes with how the Navy shaped his leadership, from attention to detail to respect for structure and the ability to relate to all types of people.

Peep Laja, CEO of Wynter and a leading SaaS messaging expert, explores why most software brands sound interchangeable. He discusses rapid human market research, the four layers of effective messaging, and why offers should be validated before ad spend. They also examine AI agents negotiating major B2B purchases and how storytelling and human personality can cut through AI-generated noise.

Sunil Kaki, Founder & CEO of Clove Growth, joins Tye DeGrange to trace the career blueprint that took him from a CJ call center to Fortune 500 CMO roles. They dig into brand vs. performance marketing, why chasing every new channel kills growth, CAC/LTV discipline, optimizing the first-user experience, the affiliate marketing philosophy that actually works, building trust with your CFO, and where AI agents fit into modern marketing.Connect with Sunil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunilkaki/#AlwaysBeTesting #PerformanceMarketing #Marketing

Mike Mallazzo, GM at Alephic Media, joins Tye DeGrange to unpack the next arbitrage window: marketing to LLMs and AI search engines. They cover AEO and GEO strategy, how brands get cited by ChatGPT and other AI assistants, the emerging opportunity in AI-driven ad arbitrage, why partner and affiliate marketing are becoming core to AI search strategy, and why traditional attribution models (MMM/MTA) are losing their grip.#AlwaysBeTesting #AEO #GEO #AISearch

Katerine Tamargo, Head of AI at CJ (Commission Junction), joins Tye DeGrange to unpack one of the most surprising findings in generative engine optimization: more than 83% of AI citations point to third-party sources, not brand-owned content. They dig into the KPIs that actually define AI visibility — mention rate, sentiment, position, and citations — and why a rigorous test-and-learn methodology beats chasing tactics. Katerine also busts a few of the biggest myths circulating about GEO and agentic AI, and explains how publisher compensation models are evolving as AI reshapes the path to purchase.What you'll learn:• Why third-party content — not brand-owned pages — wins the majority of AI citations• The KPIs that define AI visibility: mentions, sentiment, position, and citations• How to build a real test-and-learn framework for GEO instead of guessing• Why the old "owned media" playbook doesn't translate to AI search• How publisher compensation is shifting as AI answers replace clicks• Common myths about GEO and agentic AI, debunked

Michelle Eatherton, Chief Business Officer at Liminal, shares how she convinced her co-founder to build the company partner-led from the very first call, before there was even a product. She and Tye dig into why mid-market enterprises are the underserved sweet spot for AI governance tools, and what it really takes to earn a hyperscaler co-sell relationship.

Jordan Bentley, founder of Audio Hook, explains how he built a performance-based podcast advertising model where brands only pay for real outcomes, not impressions. He and Tye talk about why AI made ad production easier (not the strategy), and why geo-based incrementality testing beats promo codes for proving what's actually working.

Michael Gants, founder and CEO of Encore, breaks down how apps can turn unused "streak" and celebration screens into a new revenue stream, without a single ad or paywall. He shares how brands like Disney, Uber, and Apple are paying to reach users in their happiest moments, and why founders should be more afraid of a broken CAC/LTV ratio than of running a monetization experiment.

Brook Schaaf, co-founder of FMTC and author of the new book Affiliate Hypotheses, joins Tye to make the case that affiliate marketing might be the internet's best — and sometimes only — way to monetize the open web. They dig into why walled gardens like Google and Meta get outsized credit for conversions, and why AI search is putting the open web's survival at risk.