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Mind the Shift

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Apr 19, 2023 • 1h 44min

104. Possibly the Most Spectacular UFO Case Ever – Gary Heseltine

We have all heard about the Roswell incident in 1947. But a series of UFO encounters and sightings at and around two air force bases in Suffolk in Eastern England in December 1980 amounted to something at least as spectacular. The Rendlesham Forest Incidents (RFI), as the 1980 events are called, were a sensation when they became known to the public in 1983. But in the decades since then, the hugely complicated case has been subject to massive cover-up and denial, according to a new book by Gary Heseltine, Non-Human The Rendlesham Forest UFO Incidents: Forty-Two Years of Denial. With his background as an interviewing expert with the police force, Gary has managed to dig up an impressive amount of new, mind blowing information; find new witnesses and elicit new information from known witnesses. ”I surprise myself. I really thought I knew the case really well”, Gary says, laughingly. The area around Rendlesham forest was the scene of a number of mysterious sightings and experiences: Strangely and fast moving intense lights, beams scanning the weapon storage area, at least two landed craft and a handful of testimonies about alien beings. In the book, Gary Heseltine meticulously dissects the often crucial details. He interviews people who were members of the US military at the two bases at the time. He elicits particularly interesting accounts from a sergeant by the name of Adrian Bustinza, who is an instrumental link between at least two of the nights when non-human activity took place. Another US service member, James Stewart, gives a mind blowing testimony about entities, strange footprints and a craft that landed and was being shot at. What Stewart experienced, however, turns out to have happened a year before the main events. Gary concludes that in all, no less than 17 UFO encounters took place over four consecutive nights, plus the one Stewart experienced a year before The deep research that was to become a book started in 2017, when Gary was appointed the lead researcher in the production of a documentary about the case. He then began looking for things he might have missed during years of private investigations. But in a way it began already in 2007, when Gary initiated a seven year long collaboration period with the key witness Charles Halt, who at the time of the RFI was the deputy base commander. Halt is a pivotal figure because of a memorandum he wrote that leaked in 1983. It was probably never meant to reach anybody outside the military or the government. What was in the memo could not be denied once it had got out, but anything else pertaining to the RFI could, and was. In the memo, Halt reported two nights of UFO activity. He admitted to having seen multiple UFO’s himself. But as Gary Heseltine has shown, there was more to the story. Gary ended the collaboration in 2014. ”Because I realized he knew more than he was telling me.” Not only the military is guilty of an incredible amount of cover-up and denial, but also the mainstream media, which has not been willing to seriously question the official story. Gary’s book UFO Truth Magazine International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research, ICER (Gary is vice president)
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Apr 5, 2023 • 1h 35min

103. Lost Technologies of (a very) Ancient Egypt – Christopher Dunn

There is one person who probably has had more influence than anybody else over alternative views on the textbook narrative of ancient Egyptian technology. Christopher Dunn has written three prominent books on the subject. That is actually a piece of news, because number three hasn’t yet been published. It will be out by the end of this year. Chris Dunn is an engineer, and thus he has the perspective of the people who actually built the marvels of ancient Egypt. He is very much not an Egyptologist or an archaeologist. Precisely because of that I would not hesitate to call him a leading expert in this field. The two books he is known for are The Giza Power Plant and Lost Technologies of Ancient Egypt. The upcoming book is a sequel to the first one and has the title Giza – The Tesla Connection, with the subtitle Acoustical Science and the Harvesting of Clean Energy. Those who are skeptical of the idea that the precise artifacts and impressive buildings of ancient Egypt must have been made with the help of high-tech machinery often ask: ”So, why haven’t we found any traces of those machines?” In fact, most machines that have been used to construct things are lost. Over time they corrode and turn to dust, especially if we are talking about an Egyptian civilization way older than the textbook dynasties.  ”I support the idea of a previous civilization that was met with a cataclysm”, says Chris. In his new book, he fine tunes his theories about how the Giza pyramids harnessed and transmitted energy. Important parts rest on the work by Nasa physicist Friedemann Freund. The Tesla connection is, among other things, the way the energy was distributed. Some say the knowledge about how to generate basically free energy has been actively suppressed since the days of Nikola Tesla, perhaps even longer. Chris Dunn is inclined to agree. ”There have been some very bright people out here who feel their ideas have been suppressed”, he says. ”There are vested interests that would prevent new technologies from being introduced, which would make their investments worthless.” ”In my new book, I am closer to describing more fully a better way to harness electricity. I expect it’s going to be 50-60 years before people take it seriously. That’s why I devote the book to future generations.” ”Or it may take a week. It depends who gets involved.” Links: Giza Power website Chris Dunn’s books Mark Qvist’s article on scanned and analyzed ancient urn Ahmed Adly, Youtube UnchartedX, Youtube
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Mar 22, 2023 • 59min

102. Mapping Your Life Territory – Anthony Willoughby

Anthony Willoughby has been described as an eccentric, an adventurer, an explorer, an entrepreneur and a team-builder. He has lived his life staying away from restricting social structures. At school, he was the odd man out. ”Oh, I was completely ostracized”, he says. Today, he sees that as a privilege, because he didn’t want to be a part of a mainstream he never understood. Anthony is an eighth generation expatriate. He grew up in Sudan, Egypt and East Africa, experiencing fascinating wildlife and adventures. Then he was sent to school in England, which completely lacked enthusiasm for life. His luckiest moment at school was when his house master said ”let’s talk about your future”. ”’Anthony’, he said, ’let’s make one thing absolutely clear: you are far, far too stupid to go to university’. I remember the sense of freedom.” Education has not changed in hundreds of years, and it is basically designed to train people to work in factories or go to the trenches, according to Anthony. ”The brain is damaged by it. It completely removes creativity.” So he began a life of travel and human encounters. He was based in Japan for 30 years. From there he made adventurous excursions to Yemen, Mongolia, Papua New Guinea and East Africa. ”It was when I met with the Maasai in Kenya I saw people who had substance without arrogance. I thought: why aren't we taught presence, why aren't we taught identity, why aren't we taught who we are?” In Papua New Guinea, Anthony learned the importance of knowing one’s territory. That was the beginning of the two consultancies he is now running: Territory Mapping and Nomadic School of Business. ”Nomads have this glorious sense of being able to welcome people on their territory. They have absolute confidence. They know who they are.” He began asking business people ”what are you hunting, what are you protecting and what are you growing?” and had them draw their own territory maps. ”You can build teams in a company quite easily. But the purpose and the identity is what is missing”, he says. He and his associates are now working in exactly the same way with billionaire families in America as with homeless people in Wales. Anthony laughingly says that he in some ways loved Covid, and he loves the recently launched artificial intelligence robot Chat GPT. ”People thought structure, stability and certainty existed, but they’re delusions! They’re delusions that people build their lives on. But they’re meaningless if you don’t know who you are.” ”And suddenly the arrogance of knowledge does not exist. The only thing that matters is wisdom. We’re going right back to the basics.” Anthony’s email address Anthony’s two consultancies: Territory Mapping Nomadic School of Business
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Mar 8, 2023 • 1h 36min

101. This Solves the Ice Age Mystery – Mario Buildreps

(For full Youtube) Not many people ponder the standard story of Earth’s deep geological history. Most of us know there have been many ice ages, but few realize that the science to explain them is far from settled. According to the groundbreaking work of Mario Buildreps, pen-name for Maarten D, the so-called Milankovich cycles cannot explain recurring ice ages (in all fairness, there is controversy around this theory). Buildreps’ astonishing conclusion is the following: The Earth has periodically expanded. During these periods of expansion, the North Pole has moved and the oceans have widened (the ocean floors are much younger than the land masses). Needless to say, these expansion events must have been accompanied with enormous seismic activity, floods and other natural disasters. The idea that the Earth has expanded is not new, but expansion has happened much more recently than the traditional expansionists believed, according to Mario Buildreps and his co-researchers. Mario is in a way building on, and enhancing, the theories of Charles Hapgood. One strange feature about the last ice age is that the ice sheet was clearly off center. It covered large swaths of Europe and North America, almost down to subtropical latitudes, but it didn’t cover eastern Siberia. Assuming that the geographical North Pole was located further south than today when the last ice age began, over Greenland, would explain this eccentricity. Oddly enough, the South Pole seems to have stayed put all along. In Mario’s model, the South Pole is the pivot point in the gradual expansion of the Earth. Mario discovered the ”wandering” of the North Pole when he measured the orientation of hundreds of ancient megalithic sites around the world. The hypothesis is that people have always oriented important buildings cardinally. It turns out that a large proportion of the ancient sites are almost oriented to today’s true north, but not quite. Mario realized that clusters of ancient buildings that are ”wrongly” oriented have exactly the same degree of deviation from true north. He eventually came to two conclusions: The North Pole has had five different positions along a longitude that stretches over Greenland during the last 450,000 years, and many ancient megalithic structures are much older than previously believed. According to this dating method, the Cochasqui pyramids in Ecuador could be a stunning 400,000 years old, and Chichen Itzá in Mexico 250,000 years, whereas the pyramids of Giza are oriented towards the current North Pole, which means their foundations are at the most 26,000 years old. Mario, or Maarten, is a former successful businessperson and an engineer. Math is second nature to him. His and his co-researchers’ calculations tell him that the likelihood that the different clusters of structures that have the exact same orientation ”fault” between them should be oriented to precisely the five locations of the North Pole concluded by Mario is pure chance is virtually zero. Mario thinks humanity has gone through many cataclysms. He downplays the special importance many ascribe to the Younger Dryas period as a civilization-ending event. Many scientific disciplines need to change their tenets when – if – Mario’s theory becomes mainstream and the paradigm shifts completely. Geology is one. Archaeology is another. Just consider this brilliant remark by Mario: ”Archaeological periods – Iron Age, Bronze Age, Stone Age – are named according to the corrosion rate of those materials.” Indeed. Iron lasts a little over 3,000 years, bronze a little over 5,000 years, and before that, you only find stone, so you call it the Stone Age. But the truth is that only stone survives tens of thousands of years. Any material could have been used then. Mario’s website
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Feb 22, 2023 • 1h 14min

100. The News Industry Bias is a Cancer – Ariana Pekary

As many followers of this podcast know, its host worked as a news journalist for more than two decades. In the summer of 2020, I left my job at the biggest newspaper in Sweden. That same summer, Ariana Pekary quit her job at one of the biggest news desks in America, MSNBC, without having any other media job waiting for her. That was a bold and unconventional step in a world of tough competition. Not only that: On her blog, Ariana posted a resignation letter, which went viral. These are some of the words she wrote: Behind closed doors, industry leaders will admit the damage that’s being done. “We are a cancer and there is no cure,” a successful and insightful TV veteran said to me. As it is, this cancer stokes national division, even in the middle of a civil rights crisis. This cancer risks human lives, even in the middle of a pandemic. This cancer risks our democracy, even in the middle of a presidential election. There is a better way to do this. I’m not so cynical to think that we are absolutely doomed (though we are on that path). I know we can find a cure. ”So much of the polarization in (the American) society is amplified due to the financial incentives of the news media”, Ariana says. ”It seeps into every newsroom, no matter how earnest the journalists are. And then it seeps into everybody’s living room.” ”It’s a cancer because it’s such an enormous problem that infects everyone. It’s incredibly damaging, and it’s only getting worse. That's why I felt I needed to say that in a public space.” Before she came to MSNBC, Ariana worked at public radio. She describes the difference as huge. At public radio, the numbers of listeners or viewers are not broken down on a day-to-day basis, as they are at commercial desks. ”This allows the journalists there to have real live editorial debates”, she says. For example, she was able to do an extensive documentary series about homeless children. She spent the bulk of a year interviewing families and people who worked with these vulnerable people. ”At MSNBC, they might consider that type of topic, but it would always be the first thing they would kill when something else came along. It is a big difference.” One particular American media dilemma is political partisanship. It exists elsewhere, too, but it is especially prominent in the US. It is a real problem which seems to be difficult to solve. I ask Ariana what she thinks about another cause of skewed news reporting, the negativity bias. I personally think it is one of the biggest media problems, because it permeates all kinds of journalism, and the focus on misery that is its result poisons people ’s minds. Ariana agrees that the guiding star of the news media, ”if it bleeds, it leads”, is sad. But she is not convinced that it is a major issue that has to be dealt with. ”It’s a complicated problem. You're going to report on something when it’s broken. If things are working okay, you won’t.” The media landscape is changing fast. There are ever more outlets for information, some reliable, some less so. Ariana thinks this is already changing the way we perceive news, and what it is. ”We need to exercise more humility, realize we don’t know everything, and that means accepting someone who’ll combat you with a different opinion, which can be very difficult. My hope is that we can start to raise an awareness that things aren't necessarily black or white.” Ariana’s ”dream” news media would break the us versus them perspective, the tribalism. ”Even if we have different opinions, we have a lot in common. There’s  a common denominator among all of us.” Ariana’s website Ariana’s resignation letter
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Feb 8, 2023 • 1h 26min

99. Prepared, not Scared – Leah Shaper & Diamond

David ”Diamond” Mauriello and Leah Shaper moved to southern Colorado to create an alternative way of living and to ”extract themselves from the system”. They perceived the majority society as increasingly unsound. Today, they are self-sufficient on healthy foods and energy, and they have made sure that they will be able to thrive even if a massive geomagnetic storm takes out the power and communication grids. That risk is not minimal. Significant changes are underway in Earth’s magnetic field. Diamond and Leah have a background in Academia and science, and they have delved deeply into the historic patterns and behavior of our planet and the celestial body that most influences it, the sun. The most intense geomagnetic storm in recorded history, the famed Carrington event, knocked out the little electrical infrastructure that was in place at the time. Today, as you know, society is completely dependent on such. According to Leah and Diamond – and many others who have looked into the historic data – it is a matter of when, not if, a major magnetic disruption with devastating consequences for modern society will occur. Another sun-related feature that is already here is a prolonged period of weak solar activity, something called the Modern Grand Solar Minimum. It will lead to significantly colder weather within a few years, especially in certain regions. ”The one thing everybody should come away with if they listen to this, is that there will be a large earthquake, there will be a VEI 7 volcanic eruption, and there will be a comet that hits earth. The question isn't if, it's when. And wouldn't you like a little peace of mind, to be prepared instead of scared?”, says Diamond. I myself have a slightly different approach to the prospect of a coming catastrophe. I am more of a take-life-as-it-unfolds person. Which makes for an interesting exchange of thoughts on that matter. To sum up, here are some of the many topics we cover in this lively conversation: • Toxic foods • False and true risks • Prepping for disaster • Censorship • Hypocrisy in science • The climate discussion • The Grand solar minimum • The geomagnetic reversal • Optimism vs pessimism • Hope of a brighter future on the other side of chaos • What we can learn from cataclysms in history • Earlier civilizations Enjoy! Oppenheimer Ranch Project on Youtube Magnetic Reversal News on Youtube Original ORP website Study on the Modern Grand Solar Minimum (by Valentina Zharkova, Northumbria University)
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Jan 19, 2023 • 1h 4min

98. Bringing Science to Spiritual Awakenings – Jessica Corneille

On February 19th, 2016, Jessica Corneille went to sleep and had a lucid dream. The next morning, she woke up and opened her eyes … ”… and I was flooded with this immense sense of well-being and connection with everything and everyone in the universe, a deep sense of oneness. It was a deeply lived experience, it was almost cellular and vibrational.” It was not something acquired, Jessica explains. ”It was rather as though a veil had been lifted and I could see what had been there all the time.” ”I was returning to a child-like state. Everything was amplified. Even just from a five senses standpoint it was as if everything was new, and paradoxically, it felt as if I was remembering old knowledge.” This transformational state stayed intense for several months. Eventually it waned, but it is still with her today. ”Six years down the line, I am still thinking about it all the time”, she says. The spontaneous spiritual awakening made Jessica feel compelled to leave a promising career in the art world and instead follow an urge to understand more of what these experiences are and convey that knowledge to people. ”I knew I needed to do something with this experience, some kind of selfless service to humanity.” Her new path led her to become a research psychologist. Her mission is to challenge the default pathologization of awakening experiences. ”If we could understand these experiences better scientifically, we could make a case for them not to always be considered psychopathology or mental health disorder within the mainstream psychological systems, which they are presently, unfortunately”, she says. Before her profound experience, Jessica was an atheist and had no connection to anything spiritual or religious. But the awakening brought with it a strong sense ”that everything will be well after my death”. ”There was a loss of fear. I will return to Source.” Many spiritual awakenings occur when the person is in some kind of trauma or crisis, like temporary clinical death, but Jessica experienced an ego death in a situation where she was happy. She had just moved to a city she loved and begun a job she loved. According to Jessica Corneille’s research, 91 percent of those who have had a spontaneous spiritual awakening experience positive effects already in the short term, and 98 percent experience that they are positive in the long term. The experience is transformative. There is a loss of fear and anxiety. ”These experiences are powerful. Overall, they are described as stronger than all other measured altered states of consciousness, like those induced by drugs or by other means”, Jessica says. She thinks there is hope for a better scientific understanding of spiritual experiences, which entails a possible bridging of science and spirituality. ”Look at the new research on psychedelics and on contemplative practices. And there is quite a lot of funding put into trying to understand the nature of consciousness.” ”I think we are going through a paradigm shift.” Jessica’s email address Bio on the Galileo Commission’s website Jessica’s scientific study on spontaneous spiritual awakenings Lecture by Jessica about her study on spiritual awakenings
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Dec 28, 2022 • 1h 15min

97. Full Freedom at Your Fingertips – Angelo Dilullo

This is my second conversation with the amazing Angelo Dilullo. We talk about the deepest stuff imaginable, but it feels almost laidback. Angelo and his book Awake–It’s Your Turn are the ideal goto for those of you who feel there is more to life than meets the eye but are uncomfortable with religion and the general spiritual lingo. You don’t need religion to wake up from the illusion of time, self and separation. In his book, Angelo deliberately avoids spiritual language. But there are numerous references to spiritual traditions and practices, especially from the East. It’s unavoidable. Angelo had his own awakening at the age of 24. He has much in common with guides like Eckart Tolle and Rupert Spira, but he is still very much one of a kind. For one thing, he still works full time as a physician. Waking up is not about a journey, it’s about realizing what has been present all the time. It’s a state of being–the natural state of being. But the mind, which is conditioned to experience time and separation, wants to see it as a journey to make sense of it. True realization isn’t possible to explain in words. But Angelo’s superpower is his ability to point out paths that can nudge you in the right direction. In this second talk, I wanted to go a bit deeper into Angelo’s world view; the purpose of us being here, what awakening would entail for the collective and what he thinks of science, such as quantum physics. We had a 75 minute window, and, unsurprisingly, I didn’t get to ask half of the questions I wanted to. But some of them led us in unexpected directions. It was an amazing conversation, and in part almost a bit trippy. Here are some of Angelo’s takes on things we talked about: On stress ”In deeper stages of realization, your reactions to what would typically be called stressful situations actually drop away. It doesn't mean you don’t relate to the outside world, there’s just no unnecessary reactions.” On time ”We don't really experience the past and we don't experience the future, and yet somehow we ignore that truth. We spend most of our time living and believing in this inner world of past and future.” On thoughts as just reflections ”Once you're in synchronicity, you experience that everything just arises out of nothing. Things spontaneously appear, disappear and move, just as they need to, and you feel the whole environment as one.” On quantum physics and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle ”There is no particular way that things are. But the mind doesn’t like that. The mind always looks for a model.” On movies like The Matrix, The Truman Show and Revolver ”This is the collective hypnosis of mind identification. The self-imposed and group think imposed and societally imposed delusions of separation. The forces of delusion are very, very powerful.” On awakening as ”cracking the code” and ”outsmarting God” ”There is nothing wrong with living in a story, there's nothing wrong with doing it the hard way. But I will tell you–and Buddhism is all about this–that if you live in a world of stories, if you’re totally mind identified, you can perpetuate a massive amount of harm, even violence. And we see people do this.” On reincarnation ”I think a lot of that is based on a historical paradigm. Hinduism, Buddhism, and also New Age ideas. That doesn’t totally vibe with me. With that said, I can’t  deny the existence of other life times, energetically, because I have experienced it. It's just obvious. But when we see it the way the mind makes sense of it, we see it the wrong way. All events are happening simultaneously.” Website YT channel First appearance on Mind the Shift 
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Dec 14, 2022 • 48min

96. Preparing for the Huge E.T. Shock – Gary Heseltine

A new whistleblower law in the US, following last year’s historic disclosures by the Pentagon, could trigger an avalanche of truths about extraterrestrial activity. ”We have been lied to for 75 years”, says British UFO expert Gary Heseltine. Gary began his UFO investigations–which were then unofficial–when he was still a police detective. In 2013 he left the police force and launched the online magazine UFO Truth Magazine. ”I’ve made my passion into my job.” This passion has its roots in a strange experience he had when he was 16. He then saw a strange white light that appeared to trigger a number of power cuts in the area where he was living. Following the light, he was able to predict the cuts. Today, Gary Heseltine is also the vice president of ICER, the International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research. ”It is a mixture of UFO experts, scientists and academics, which is a very unusual mix in this subject”, Gary says. This episode is recorded in Cusco, Peru, with its many mysteriously advanced megalithic structures. Gary is open to the possibility that these structures were built with extraterrestrial help, possibly thousands of years ago, but he and ICER concentrate on UFO sightings during the modern era, basically from 1947 onwards. 1947 was the year of the famous Roswell incident, the event that kicked off the UFO discussion in the modern era. To Gary, there is no doubt Roswell was real. ”We will never prove they retrieved bodies. But we suspect they did.” ”Personally I believe the US government has lied to the public. There has been a campaign of disinformation–maybe for our benefit, but the bottom line is you can't keep lying. I think due to technology we’re close to them losing control.” ICER’s broader aim is to prepare people for such a coming paradigm shift: the E.T. Disclosure with a big D, when the media will report 24/7 about a nonhuman presence on planet Earth. ”The world is vastly underprepared”, Gary says. ”Considering what’s taking place in America, it's a real possibility that there will be an acknowledgement within the next two years that we are dealing with a nonhuman interaction. But this subject has been so ridiculed for so long, so there will be a culture shock if we are not careful.” According to Heseltine, he and others in the coalition have meetings with diplomats behind the scenes. In June of 2021, the Pentagon released three videos of unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs) and a briefing admitting to 143 unexplained encounters with UAPs. Legislation is in the pipeline entailing that the intelligence community must produce yearly reports about UAP sightings to the Congress plus a right for whistleblowers in the military and intelligence organizations to come forward without reprisals. To Gary Heseltine, this development is a historic game changer. ”For example, the public will be able to hear direct testimony for the first time from people who have been involved in nuclear weapon shutdowns by UFO intervention, like captain Robert Salas was in 1967.” What are we then seeing in the Pentagon clips? Who is visiting us? ”We believe we are dealing with something nonhuman. When you look at the broad abduction scenario across the world, there are at least five main species that seem to be identified. I think governments, especially the Americans, know a hell of a lot more than they say”, Gary says. When the truth comes out, some people will be scared or even panic. ”Because they've been lied to for 75 years, a proportion of the population will feel very vulnerable”, Gary thinks. ”We need to start preparing the public for what will be a huge shock. People could become very angry.”
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Nov 30, 2022 • 26min

95. Helping an Old Paradigm to Kick the Bucket – Brien Foerster

Brien Foerster is probably known to a large chunk of this podcast’s audience. Not only has he appeared as a guest in an earlier episode (#78), but he has been referred to in numerous other episodes and vlogs. Brien’s ongoing exploration of ancient megalithic wonders, and his attempts to understand how and when human civilization began, inspire thousands of curious human beings in general and a growing number of independent researchers in particular. This interview was made in Cusco, Peru, where I participated in one of the fascinating tours that Brien and his Peruvian associates arrange to some of South America’s most spectacular sites (he also does tours in other parts of the world). When you see things with your own eyes, there is so much that doesn’t fit with the standard narrative. Western academia claims that all you see here was built by the Inca. Not only the interesting yet rather crude structures that are made of smallish, rough limestone pieces held together with clay mortar, but also the walls that consist of exquisitely tightly fit granite blocks weighing a hundred tons apiece, blocks that seem to have been transported from quarries dozens of kilometers away in mountainous terrain. Wait. They didn’t have machines, they didn’t know how to make steel, they didn’t even have the wheel. Not only did they construct all of it, say the textbooks, they did it under the rule of merely twelve kings, whereof one is said to have been the big builder. Again, wait. As Brien says: ”They say that the whole of Machu Picchu was built in 25 years. Well, the cathedral in Cusco took a hundred years to build, and that’s just one large building.” When the Spaniards arrived at the impressive megalithic structures at Sacsayhuamán they were dumbfounded. They had never seen anything like it in Europe. ”They asked the local Inca people: ’Did you build this?’ ’No’, they said. ’This was here when we got here.’ So even the Inca were telling the Spanish this was not their work, but academics are still saying the Inca did all of this.” Brien’s website Hidden Inca Tours  Episode #78 (my first interview with Brien) 

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