Mormon Discussion Podcast

Elder Oaks gave a talk this past week that raises for me several questions. Here are the things he seemed to have said and my questions that follow. Remember it is Elder Oaks himself who stated that “Questions are honored” and so I hope you will do just that by taking them seriously. Also, Elder Ballard said gone are the days when we bear testimony or say don’t worry about it as a way to avoid serious concerns. So I am hopeful you will either address my questions or if you are unable, that you will see that they are forwarded up the ecclesiastical ladder until someone is willing to honor my questions. I also hope you will sense that if these questions can not be addressed that it is possible there is something illogical about the teaching being imposed. I am open to having misunderstood Elder Oaks and I am open to gospel answers that are backed by scriptural principles and doctrine. He seems to have taught 1.) It is our doctrine that a man married to a woman legally and lawfully is the only appropriate marriage in the gospel – How do we reconcile that concept with the fact that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff were all illegally and unlawfully wedded to their wives? 2.) That for thousands of years marriage has been between a man and a woman. – How can we take seriously such a definition when the Church itself broke the traditional definition of marriage but instructing people to enter polygamy and going so far as to impose that only by disobeying the world and its laws and entering polygamy may one achieve salvation. 3.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose that Gender being eternal is doctrine. – How do we explain Intersex people with both sets of genitalia, How do we explain androgen sensitivity syndrome which has a human with the DNA of a man (XY chromosomes) while at the same time the fetus inability to process androgen appropriately has the person presenting physically as a female and in some cases even able to give birth?, How do we explain transgender? Was an intersex person both male and female in the premortal life? will they have both genitalia in the post-mortal life? will a xy chromosome man who presents as a female be a man or a woman in the hereafter? 4.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose the Proclamation as Doctrine to which a latter-day saints faithfulness will be gauged. – There seems to be a process to put forth the mind and will of God in a way that Latter Day Saints are bound to it and for us to see the ideas as doctrine. That is to put forth the teaching for a vote of common consent before the membership and then to canonize it. A Latter Day Saint can not be held to every statement a leader makes nor can a person have any teaching imposed on him as a litmus test of faith without that teaching being presented for common consent. For example Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual ” Not only are Church officers sustained by common consent, but this same principle operates for policies, major decisions, acceptance of new scripture, and other things that affect the lives of the Saints”. “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” has never be presented for common consent nor has it been canonized. Any unique teaching in it not corroborated by canonized scripture accepted by Common consent can not be used as a litmus test to decide faithfulness. Notice the Church itself only a few years ago did not like this kind of imposition and even altered a leaders words to prevent it. In October 2010 general conference President Packer stated the following ” Fifteen years ago, with the world in turmoil, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” the fifth proclamation in the history of the Church. It qualifies according to the definition as a revelation and would do well that members of the church to read and follow it.” The published version now says: “Fifteen years ago, with the world in turmoil, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” the fifth proclamation in the history of the Church. It is a guide that members of the Church would do well to read and to follow.” Also consider ““All that we teach in this Church ought to be couched in the scriptures. It ought to be found in the scriptures. We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures. If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth” (“Using the Scriptures in Our Church Assignments,” Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, 13).” Also consider “In the Church, canon refers to the authoritative collection of sacred books of scripture, known as the standard works, formally adopted and accepted by the Church and considered binding upon members in matters of faith and doctrine.” 5.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose that a marriage vows must be honored with complete fidelity. – Can we address how that plays out in Joseph’s relationship with Emma. He lied to her about polygamy, he had relationships with women without telling Emma, and some of these relationships were sexual. How do we contrast Joseph behavior with the imposition that one’s marriage should be honored with complete fidelity? If we are going to hold people accountable should we not be willing to discuss the prophet Joseph’s behavior? (Even the LDS.ORG essay says “Emma likely did not know about all of Joseph’s sealings.” – is that fidelity to Emma?) 6.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose that the Church seeks to protect the sanctity of marriage by upholding the traditional definition and that we are at odds with a world that seeks to change the traditional definition. – In light of our early practice of polygamy where the world was trying to uphold the traditional definition of marriage and it was us as a faith that was seeking to amend and alter that definition is such an argument rooted in hypocrisy? 7.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose that the doctrine is that marriage is for “multiplying and replenishing the earth”. – How do we contrast that with the Church teaching in the LDS.ORG essay “Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo” that “Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations.”? Which means some marriages were likely not intended to be sexual hence Joseph wasn’t marrying for the doctrine to multiply and replenish the earth with some of his wives. So how do we reconcile that? Am I bound to what a single leader teaches if it is not in the standard works? Am I bound to see the proclamation as a guide or is it now an un-canonized doctrine that was never put forth for common consent?   https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/media/session_1_talk_6/5594186028001?lang=eng The post 282: Elder Oaks, Common Consent, And Un-Canonized Doctrine appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Orthodox members of the Church constantly point at progressive Mormons as falling off the path, as inappropriately raising a critical voice, as having done something contrary to the path Jesus had set.  Today we revisit the life of Jesus.  We examine his interaction with his religious leaders.  We examine his behavior within his True and Living Church.  Today we ask ourselves how did Jesus live his path in mortality within the True and Living Church and are the progressive voices really that different? The post 281: Jesus & His True And Living Church appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

This is an audio recording of the presentation “Mormon Discussion Presents: A Dialogue on Gospel Topic Essays”.  This was held at the Home of Bill Reel, host of Mormon Discussion Podcast, in Southern Utah on September 16th.  Sound quality is slightly less than desirable but this went so well and the discussion may be extremely helpful to build bridges in mixed faith relationships.  We ended up with about 35 folks with some being very orthodox, others being completely out and then some in between.  folks all along the spectrum found the night to be helpful and beneficial.   The post Mormon Discussion Presents: An Exploration of the Gospel Topic Essays appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we discuss the Word of Wisdom or better yet section 89 of the D&C.  Today we talk about the history of the Word of Wisdom, what it means to be Revelation or better yet what it means to be Canon, better yet what it means to be binding on the people.  And if Binding on the saints then what room is there without a revelation, without additional Canon, and without a vote of common consent; to create a standard that runs counter to that binding canonized revelation. The post 280: Word Of Wisdom appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

The episode starts with sharing upcoming events we are planning then dives into the episode “Rabbit Holes” Alice was encouraged into the rabbit hole but once she entered there was no turning back.  In Mormonism too there are rabbit holes and they too never end where we expected.  As we look at the question of “What in our narrative has to change?”, it may be easier to ask “What doesn’t have to change?” as we are beginning to sense that so so much of our story is problematic.   To see Events being held check out these links Event is Southern Utah: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/mormon-discussion-podcast-presents-a-dialogue-on-lds-gospel-topic-essays-tickets-37284135854 Event in the Las Vegas area: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/mormon-discussion-podcast-presents-joseph-smiths-folk-magic-seer-stones-and-treasure-digging-tickets-37315533766 To hold an event in your area email me at reelmormon AT gmail DOT com These are so much fun and we will spend a day or two in great conversation and provide such a validating experience for those who are grappling with the messiness! The post 279: Rabbit Holes and Upcoming Events appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we discuss at length the Temple Lot Case.  Why the RLDS (Community of Christ) and Hedrickite (Church of Christ) branches were bickering and fighting, why the LDS branch got involved, How the case got resolved, and most important what we learn about Mormonism from those who testified.  Fake Deeds, Cease and Desist Orders, Dodged Questions, and Carnal Intercourse all enter the conversation around this historical episode in Mormonism’s history. We borrowed heavily from the following articles in order to put this episode together. RESOURCES: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Lot_Case http://restorationbookstore.org/blog/TLCtestimonies.pdf signaturebookslibrary.org/an-introduction-to-the-temple-lot-case/ josephsmithspolygamy.org/lorenzo-snows-temple-lot-testimony/ https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/01/JS1018.pdf http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1880s-1890s/1893_TLot.htm https://eadview.lds.org/findingaid/MS%201160/ reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/3obrqk/testimonies_from_the_temple_lot_trial_on_joseph/ https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/bitstream/handle/2152/21959/ouellette_dissertation_201221.pdf;sequence=1 https://archive.org/details/decisionofjohnfp00philrich http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/temple-lot-case/ The post 278: Temple Lot, Hedrickites, RLDS, and Carnal Intercourse appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

This audio program is hosted by Bill Reel, an active faithful Latter-day Saint who has himself gone through a difficult and painful faith transition and has remained active in the Church.  This program is for the loved ones of those struggling in hopes for understanding and a safe space to have conversations. You likely received this audio program from someone you love who is going through a hard time.  They need you as a trusted friend and they treasure your relationship and are hopeful you will listen to this episode in hopes that you can better understand their struggle of faith.   In the end the real solutions to a crisis of faith is love, empathy, compassion, and support and most importantly validation.  May this be one step to such things. WEB RESOURCES: paulien stages of faith Keeley Stages of Faith Perry’s Scheme of Development Fowler’s Stages of faith   BOOKS: The Critical Journey Faith Shift Navigating Mormon Faith Crisis The post Stages of Faith & Building Bridges appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we have a vulnerable discussion about Miracles vs Myths.  We tackle what is the reality in our present day with verifiable history vs the magical supernatural that God did when history wasn’t verifiable.  We talk about  what that means and where that takes us.  We end talking about deconstruction and taking control of what is left that has value to you and being comfortable discarding that which hold no value or is unhealthy. The post 277: Myths, Fables, and Verifiable History appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we read  an incredible blog post written by “Thinker of Thoughts“. Faith crises are all the rage. Everybody’s talking about them. Okay, well not everybody. Mainly the people who have gone through them. Most other people are probably wishing that the people who keep bringing them up would just go away. They are like the Debbie Downer of religious circles, or your local family reunion. Be that as it may, chances are that at some point in your life you (or someone you love) will be faced with a crisis of faith. Depending on what faith your crisis originates from, the experience can be quite devastating. This post is going to give you a single simple trick to fix a crisis of faith – but, before I reveal this trick to you, there is some groundwork that must be laid involving what it means to “fix” a faith crisis. As I read this blog post it struck me that Apologetics in Mormonism at its core is no different than the apologetics of the false High Demand religions out there and that STEEL tools are rarely encouraged and seen as valid to one in crisis.  As the author here points out, if the apologetic strategy would work in true religions as much as false ones than the strategy is too imperfect to be utilized by a true truth seeker.  The end goal of WOOD tools is to keep the doubter in the Church and also minimize his doubts to others.  Since the methods have been shown to be just as useful in false religions as in Mormonism, these WOOD tools are useless for real truthseeking! The use of the blog post was done with the permission of “Thinker of Thoughts” RESOURCES: thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/fix-your-faith-crisis-with-this-one-weird-trick/ https://carm.org/logical-fallacies-or-fallacies-argumentation https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-to-make-sound-arguments-for-the-faith http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa208.htm   The post 276: Fix your faith crisis with this one weird trick! – WOOD vs STEEL Tools appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we delve into the theological conundrum of Satan.  We show that it is LDS theology that Satan is the opposition in the Plan of Salvation.  That he could thwart the plan simply by ceasing his participation.  The Apologetic response would argue that Satan is so pride driven that he can’t help himself but to stay involved despite his actually helping fulfill God’s plan or Satan is unnecessary and that opposition exists even if Satan steps aside.  Either way Satan either is illogical or non-essential.  We finish showing that in light of either Satan being illogical or inessential, it becomes non-essential to believe in him. Resources : https://www.lds.org/topics/satan?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1987/10/the-great-imitator?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/lucifer https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/devil?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/06/i-have-a-question?lang=eng https://www.mormonwiki.com/Satan https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/o-that-cunning-plan-of-the-evil-one?lang=eng   The post 275: Satan The Opposition In All Things appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.