Mormon Discussion Podcast

The Salt Lake Tribune recently published a book review on the book “Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints” published by the Maxwell Institute. Both the book and the Tribune article make note that what Latter-day Saints believed about early Christianity and the Great Apostasy may not only “overly simplistic, if not (a) completely false narrative”. But where did Latter-day Saints get these beliefs? How did Mormonism define the Great Apostasy? And more importantly if we redefine the very reasons for what a Restoration is and why it was needed, might we be undercutting the restoration itself? Maxwell Institute Book available – Ancient Christians Available Now – Neal A. Maxwell Institute (byu.edu) 1832 First Vision Account contradicting SLTRIB Claim that B. H. Roberts was the first promoted the apostasy narrative – History, circa Summer 1832, Page 1 (josephsmithpapers.org) 1838 First Vision account also contains significant apostasy narrative pieces History, circa June 1839–circa 1841 [Draft 2], Page 3 (josephsmithpapers.org)  The Great Apostasy by: James Talmage published 1909 by the Deseret News – Which lays out in significant ways “The Great Apostasy” – The great apostasy : considered in the light of scriptural and secular history : Talmage, James Edward, 1862-1933 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive The Church url for their pamphlet on the Great Apostasy – The Great Apostasy (churchofjesuschrist.org) While The Church is reducing the Great Apostasy to only Priesthood and Keys – They clearly have attached Doctrine, Church organization and Offices, consistency of Saving Rituals as well as imposing that Christ set up an actual Church as key components of  “The Great Apostasy” – Talks where some of those concepts are spoken Example 1  Example 2 Example 3 The Church teaches that part of the Great Apostasy is that rather than leading via revelation that the early Christian Church instead traqnsitioned over to “Long Conferences” and “Erudite Councils” “depending upon their own brilliant minds” (See Manual Image Below) –  and yet Elder Eyring admits that such is the very way this Church is led – Henry B. Eyring: “Forget Harvard and Stanford. We’re in another kind of thing here.” – YouTube LDS Church Shifting to More Pageantry and Colorful Presentation to satisfy everyone (which in their manual they claim is a sign of the Great Apostasy)   Example 1   Example 2  Example 3 The Modern Church creating a narrative of an ongoing restoration and that such has only begun to obfuscate that they are moving and shifting in every way they had previously labeled in the early Church as signs of Apostasy  (Please note how is one to discern that all shifts and changes ithin the modern Church are “Auhtorized” and all shifts and changes in the Ancient Church are “Unauthorized” 1.) Distorting the and changing the Church organization and offices (Modern Church has changed the calling of Seventies, disbanded the General Patriarch, and created and then laterdisbanded the High Priests Group 2.) Silence between the Heavens and the Earth 3.) Vast numbers who had professed membership and many who had been officers in the ministry deserted the church; while a few were stimulated to greater zeal under the scourge of persecution. 4.) Internal dissension, schism and disruption, whereby an absolute apostasy of the Church from the way and word of God was brought about” 5.) The corrupting (Changing) of the simple doctrines of the gospel of Christ by admixture with so-called philosophic systems. (Corrupting is subjective) 6.) Unauthorized (Subjective) additions to the prescribed rites and rituals of the church and the introduction of vital alterations in essential ordinances. 7.) Unauthorized (Subjective) changes in church organization and government 8.) “If the savior had come back to earth at the beginning of the fifth century A.D., i doubt whether he would have recognized the Christian church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray.”  VERSUS ” If Joseph Smith came back to earth  today, i doubt whether he would have recognized the LDS Church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray.” 9.) The power of godliness was no longer present in the Christian church.   (Is that power recognizable within the LDS Church ?) 10.) The laws were changed (Notice all the laws that have changed in the LDS Church EXAMPLES: The doing away of “Free Agency” and D&C say a Disciplinary Court requires 12 high priests but the Modern Church says not necessary) 11.) The ordinances were changed (Notice the changes to the Endowment) 12.) The everlasting covenant was broken that the lord Jesus Christ gave to his people in those days. (Notice what happened to the New and Everlasting Covenant within Mormonism AKA Polygamy) 13.) The superimposing of a man-made structure upon and over the divine program. 14.) Many men with no pretense nor claim to revelation, speaking without divine authority or revelation, depending only upon their own brilliant minds, but representing as they claim the congregations of the Christians. 15.) In long conference and erudite councils, sought the creation process to make a God which all could accept. 16.) The brilliant minds with their philosophies, knowing much about the Christian traditions and the pagan philosophies, would combine all elements to please everybody. 17.) They replaced the simple ways and program of the Christ with spectacular rituals, colorful display, impressive pageantry, and limitless pomposity, and called it Christianity. 18.) They had replaced the glorious, divine plan of exaltation of Christ with an elaborate, colorful, man-made system. they seemed to have little idea of totally dethroning the Christ, nor terminating the life of God, as in our own day, but they put together an incomprehensible God idea” It also should be noted that the LDS Church imposes that Christ organized his Church, and set forth the offices of the Church and that whenever the Gospel has been on the Earth it has been taught and administered by the Church.  Also note that even believing Faithful Scholars within the Church indicate that Jesus and his disciples remained Jews within the Jewish faith and synagogue. The post Mormonism LIVE: 113: What Ever Happened To The Great Apostasy? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Recently Bill did a solo episode away from Mormonism LIVE walking members into the historical analysis of the initial Doctrine of tithing as 10% of one’s Surplus or Interest to help believers sense they had an option backed by historical documentation that allowed them to save themselves Thousands of Dollars a year while remaining faithful. After that episode a listener sent Bill and RFM an image of a vintage Church Handbook of Instruction that got their wheels turning and this week’s episode seeks to to delve into a historical analysis of how Surplus or Interest became Gross. And YES, You will be disgusted. Here is the pdf presentation of the outline – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Tithing-Whats-In-A-Word.pdf The Introduction of Tithing to the Saints and “What is in a word” D&C 119 VS 1-4 (Given in 1838) – This law was imposed by God as a “Standing Law Forever” and came after the Law of Consecration had failed. Strange that Heavenly Father seems unable to see that this “Standing Law Forever” was about to be anything but consistent and eternal. Tithing has always meant a tenth. History of tithing in the world generally But a tenth of what? is the crux Verse 1 – Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands It seems the original commandment required ALL Surplus property be given to the Church upon entry into the faith. Verse 4 – Intimates that once one has entered the faith giving all their surplus property, they there after “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually” INTEREST = #3 “Regard to private profit” #4 “Any surplus advantage” What does Surplus mean = “What is above and beyond after the necessities are taken care of” “that which remains when use is satisfied” What does all this mean The law of tithing when taken on face value without any manipulation of the words seems to mean “When one enters the Church they are to hand over all Surplus property (any property above and beyond what is a necessity of life), and to then pay 1/10th of their “interest” or “surplus advantage” annually It also says that this shall be a standing law forever hence meaning it is DOCTRINE and can’t be changed (Without additional revelation). “Settled; established, either by law or by custom, etc.; continually existing; permanent; not temporary” Since it is the Church who is about to muddy the waters the question is being begged if “Interest” means something other than how the word is literally why wasn’t God more clear? Examples of how it was interpreted in early Church history JST Genesis 14:39 vs the original verse Genesis 14:20 that Joseph seems to be modifying (between June 1830 and July 1833) Original – “And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.” Joseph Smith’s Adaptation – “Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.” Joseph seems to be modifying this narrative about Melchizedek so as to have it conform with D&C 119’s reasonable interpretation of tithing as 1/10 of surplus. What he adds should be assumed to be altering the meaning otherwise why adapt it at all. Bishop Partridge “If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and 1/10 of the interest will of course be $6.— thus you see the plan.” Bishop Edward Partridge letter to Newel K. Whitney, July 24, 1838 Bishop Partridge, the first Bishop in the Church is instructing Newel K Whitney (I believe the second bishop in the Church) on the definition of tithing and his responsibility to collect it Bishop Partridge seems to be interpreting tithing literally based on the verse “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest (increase) annually” and is suggesting that one pay 10% of the interest earned on one’s net worth invested at 6% Lastly Steven Harper seems to agree when he says “Bishop Partridge understood “one tenth of all their interest” annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year” Millennial Star 1847 (Orson Hyde Editor) – “The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” – quotes comes post end of consecration and after law of tithing is revealed This seems to deeply agree with the very interpretations we laid out by simply being reasonable with the definitions of words a.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing before feeding your family b.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing gets you out of poverty c.) It seems to disagree with paying the tithing of the income you want to have d.) It seems to disagree with Net Blessings or Gross Blessings Lorenzo Snow 1899 in Saint George – (Church source ) ““I pray that every man, woman, and child [who has means] shall pay one tenth of their income as tithing.” When net or gross are used everyone has means with almost no exception. Lorenzo Snow’s words mesh extremely well with that 1847 Millennial Star section. Though we see for the First Time Income is substituted for Interest. This seems to be the place where later statements define interest as income. This is apparently the place where later leaders claim “interest” to understood as income. The Modern Church while using the Income for Interest Substitution always withholds “Who has means” every time Snow is requoted in Church Materials, seemingly to deceive members from making a decision based on the full quote. (Ballard hiding Things Audio Bite). This is dishonest, gaslighting, manipulation, and once one grasps the pressure local leaders feel to impose 10% of gross it is also coercion. You can’t have one without the other. It’s where they get their “understanding” The Doctrine of Tithing as it was interpreted by Various Church Handbooks of Instruction (And the Official Letter in 1970) 1913 Handbook 1923 handbook 1944 Handbook 1960 handbook 1963 handbook THIS 1963 HANDBOOK IS WHEN TITHING IS EXPLICITLY DEFINED AS ON GROSS INCOME. ONLY TO BE TAKEN BACK OUT THE FOLLOWING HANDBOOK. 1968 handbook a. Notice the apparent pushback or reconsideration and hence retreat away from being explicit about gross. This is a partial wondering about any legal liability due to their being explicit and contradicting past definitions 1970 First Presidency Letter “We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – this is Bullshit. THE 1899 CONFERENCE TALK BY SNOW SEEMS TO BE THE PLACE THEY PULL FROM TO REDEFINE INTEREST AS INCOME 1976 Handbook Closeup 1983 Handbook 1989 Handbook Conclusion Knowing what these words mean, knowing how they were interpreted, knowing how they were implemented and carried out imposes that Church members grasp this all meant Interest literally. It meant surplus literally. It meant Increase literally….. And then suddenly somewhere, somehow all of these words are changed to mean “Income” out of thin air. RFM–IT IS NOTEWORTHY THAT THE CHANGE FROM “INTEREST” TO “INCOME” WAS DONE BY LORENZO SNOW IN THE CONTEXT OF RAISING MORE MONEY TO GET THE CHURCH OUT OF DEBT. PERHAPS THIS WAS THE REASON FOR THE CHANGE; IN ORDER TO RAISE MORE MONEY. And until an official voice (Church leader or LDS Newsroom) can explain to the Church membership where Surplus or interest earned became Gross or even Net “Income” every Church member should refuse to play by rules that have been made up in order to create the wealthy Church we have today. Why the bait and switch in meaning from Interest meaning surplus to Interest meaning Gross or Net Income?, why the bait and switch in word substitution and vocabulary going from the word Interest to the word income? Why the obfuscation of “Who Has Means”, and why not actually follow the very rule they pretend exists and allow “every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”? We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – Again bullshit RESOURCES: https://www.britannica.com/topic/tithe https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng The post Mormonism LIVE: 112: Tithing – What’s In A Word appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

The running narrative within Mormonism is that Joseph Smith was an uneducated backwoods farm boy and that his lack of sophistication leaves the the Restoration as a miracle that no country bumpkin could have pulled off. But what happens when, with critical thinking skills, we take a look at the the Education he did have or had potential access to. Was Joseph Smith uneducated? Was he a middle school dropout as a surface level reading intimates? And what do we see when we look at the education of those around Joseph Smith and specifically within his family?CORRECTIONS [ There were two errors in the video presentation for this episode. #1 Randall Bell conflated incorrectly that Joseph’s uncle, John Smith (July 16, 1781 – May 23, 1854) was same John Smith (December 21, 1752 – April 30, 1809) who played a prominent role in the early history of Dartmouth. #2 The letter put up on the screen of Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdrey, is in the handwriting of Frederick G Williams.] RESOURCES: Dartmouth Arminianism And Its Impact on Hyrum Smith And the Smith Family – https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/book_of_mormon/translation/Dartmouth-Arminianism-Behrens-2006-JWH.pdf PDF Reassessing Joseph Smith Jr.’s Formal Education William Davis Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (2016) 49 (4): 1–58. – https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/uip/dial/article-pdf/49/4/1/1284352/dialjmormthou.49.4.0001.pdf Randall Bell’s PDF Presentation – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Randy-Bell-Dartmouth.pdf Joseph Smith’s Pre-1830 Education – https://mormonr.org/qnas/MggWf/joseph_smiths_pre_1830_education List of Books Joseph Smith owned – https://user.xmission.com/~research/about/books.htm Treasures and a Trash Heap: An Early Reference to the Joseph Smith Family in Palmyra (Page 201 of the document) – https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=mormonhistory William Davis wrote an article “reassessing Joseph Smith Jr’s Formal Education” and notes that when one tallies up all the evidence including the final term with Stowell’s son in Bainbridge such “increases the overall estimated time that Joseph spent in formal education to the equivalent of approximately seven full school years —a notable increase to that proposed in previous historical representations, and one that will require the careful evaluation of future historians” reddit discussion around the Dartmouth Connection – https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/comments/92e2sl/similarities_between_dartmouth_professor_john/ Adam Clarke’s Book on Tobacco – https://archive.org/details/b30351108#:~:text=A%20dissertation%20on%20the%20use%20and%20abuse%20of,among%20religious%20people….%20by%20Clarke%2C%20Adam%2C%20approximately%201762-1832 History of Moor’s Indian Charity School – https://archives-manuscripts.dartmouth.edu/agents/corporate_entities/786 The post Mormonism LIVE: 111: Joseph Smith’s Secret Education – The Dartmouth Connection appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Most faithful Latter-day Saints pay tithing on their gross income with a few paying on net income. But do the historical documents and past teachings of Prophets, Seers, and Revelators support either of those two interpretations? We take a deep dive into the historical context exploring D&C 119, A First Presidency Letter in 1970, old manuals and handbooks, Heber C Kimball, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F Smith, James E Talmage, and even the words of Bishop Edward Partridge who was the very First Bishop in the Church along with getting a modern clarifying statement from Church Historian Steven Harper about how “interest” has been interpreted in Church History. In the end a third interpretation rises to the surface that will allow every believing faithful member to save themselves Thousands of Dollars while still living the law of tithing faithfully. RESOURCES: Outline of this presentation with all documents sourced – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Why-Latter-day-Saints-Pay-Too-Much-Tithing-Outline.pdf PDF of the slide show – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Why-Latter-day-Saints-Pay-Too-Much-Tithing.pdf LDS Tithing: What’s in a word? http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html Tithing and the poor https://mormonsundayschool.org/044-tithes-and-fasting-doctrine-covenants-and-church-history/ http://lds-church-history.blogspot.com/2010/12/lds-history-summary.html The law of tithing (part three) https://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/04/i-have-a-question/what-figure-should-we-base-our-tithing-on.html?lang=eng https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/102-17-29.pdf The post Mormon Discussion: 379: Why Most Latter day Saints Are Over paying Their Tithing By 1000s Of Dollars appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Bill & RFM take a look at the Life of Francis Gladden Bishop, another Latter-day Saint who claimed to be the rightful heir to Joseph Smith after the martyrdom as part of the Mormon Succession Crisis. RESOURCES: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/license-for-gladden-bishop-14-april-1840-extract/1 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145852385/francis-gladden-bishop https://atom3.lib.byu.edu/mormonbib/11107/. https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/francis-gladden-bishop-1809 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladden_Bishop, https://wilfordwoodruffpapers.org/subjects/francis-gladden-bishop https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/bc-jsp/content/jsp/images/1168/1168_ms155_3_05_001_med.jpg https://archive.org/details/addresstosonsdau01bish https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-2-november-1838-31-july-1842/215, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/bc-jsp/content/jsp/images/1168/1168_ms155_3_05_001_med.jpg https://smile.amazon.com/Ensign-Shepherd-Remembrance-Classic-Reprint/dp/1333273819/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VOHXKME6OJK6&keywords=%22francis+gladden+bishop%22&qid=1672953250&sprefix=francis+gladden+bishop+%2Caps%2C128&sr=8-1 https://smile.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AFrancis+Gladden+Bishop&s=relevancerank&text=Francis+Gladden+Bishop&ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-from-francis-gladden-bishop-26-september-1843/1 https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JS0428.pdf The post Mormonism LIVE: 110: Francis Gladden Bishop – Succession Crisis, Orgies, & Sacred Relics appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Bill and RFM take a deep look at how sex and sexuality were presented within the LDS Church over the last 200 years. What was taboo and sin and to what degree did Leaders impose what could and could not go on the Bedroom. RAPE & VIRTUE A.) BOM teaching – Moroni 9:9 implemented into Gospel Principles (David O McKay, Heber J Grant, Spencer W Kimball) Restated by Marion G Romney Then by Mark E Petersen (soundbite) And then the Church seems to distance itself from the teaching …. Sort of Still in scriptures No documented way for believers to grasp they are distancing themselves from it. Elizabeth Smart – led to the distancing Neil Anderson (video is here )  Doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Q of the 12.   I would challenge believers to show me where I can find any teaching that has been held up and taught by all 15 of the top leadership.  That list would be so small that there should be no barrier to listing them because if 14 men taught it and one didn’t by this standard it is not Doctrine (Remember God is not a God of Confusion) So I am left to assume Neil meant that so long as it is taught generally among the Leaders? Was this teaching in its day taught generally among the leaders?  YES It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. Was this hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk?  NO It (That Virtue and chastity can be taken from you by an abusive act committed against you and that one is better off dead than having lost their virtue) was taught  By President, Prophet, seer and Revelator David O McKay By President, Prophet, seer and Revelator Heber J Grant Marion G Romney Counselor in the First Presidency  (Prophet Seer and Revelator) By President, Prophet, seer, and Revelator Spencer W Kimball By Apostle Mark E Petersen (Prophet Seer and Revelator) In the past correlated curriculum in Gospel Principles In the Book of Mormon one of the standard works This is the very reason for which old white men claiming to be moral authorities simply aren’t.  Because not only do they collectively struggle to grasp what healthy morality is and seem to collectively follow each other down the path of perpetuating abusive and unhealthy ideas, but because they also can’t define doctrine in any way that is actually useful to the Church.  ORAL SEX AS AN UNHOLY AND UNNATURAL ACT A.) Unholy & Unnatural Act THE OLD DEFINITION OF CHASTITY (Old Handbook 21.4.5 Chastity and Fidelity)  “The Lord’s law of chastity is abstinence from sexual relations outside of lawful marriage and fidelity within marriage. Sexual relations are proper only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife. Adultery, fornication, homosexual or lesbian relations, and every other unholy, unnatural, or impure practice are sinful. Members who violate the Lord’s law of chastity or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline.” THE NEW DEFINITION OF CHASTITY  – The Lord’s law of chastity is: Abstinence from sexual relations outside of a legal marriage between a man and a woman. Fidelity within marriage. Not in Gospel Principles either But Still on the Church’s site in other forms Teachings of President Kimball Guide to the Scriptures Intimacy in Marriage President Kimball seemingly contradicting himself as he is the one who took up this cause B.) Oral Sexcapades Spencer W. Kimball and the First Presidency naming it in official letter Retracting it in a second letter BIRTH CONTROL  (I want to be extremely brief here.  I am going to present these quotes in passing) A.) PAST TEACHINGS . . . there is a certain class of Latter-day Saints that have come to think as the gentile world does—that it is not stylish, not nice to have large families; and therefore we find, much to our sorrow, that in some instances steps are being taken “to prevent these spirits being tabernacled by them. .. . Apostle Abraham O. Woodruff, 1900 Speaking about Birth Control and Abortion Joseph F Smith said “Possibly no greater sin could be committed by the people who have embraced this Gospel than to prevent or to destroy life in the manner indicated.” The Church statistical report for 1901 (possibly the earliest reporting a Church birth rate). “There is something wrong,” reported the Juvenile Instructor, “either with ourselves or with our statistics—possibly with both; but we trust it is with the statistics, as that is the lesser evil.” Not only had the marriage rate declined, but “our average birth rate, if we can believe our statistical reports, is far too low. It is below that of the nations of modern Christendom to whose birth rate we have been able to obtain access. Ours, as reported, is a little over thirty-five per annum in each thousand souls.”54 The reaction to this discovery was predictable. A charge was given to review the statistics and to keep more accurate records, and markedly increased attention was given in Church discourses and publications to the obligation to have large families. Throughout the remainder of the decade, the Saints were enjoined to “be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth,” and to abandon the “tendency to postpone the responsibilities [of marriage] until middle life.” Bachelorhood and “wilfully motherless wives” came under particular attack, while the mothers of large families were singled out for special recognition.The mothers of Zion (or the statisticians) responded to the call. Within a decade, the Church could announce a birthrate of 38 per thousand, up ten percent. Although not as high as desired, there was still room for considerable pride that this was “the highest birth-rate in the world, as far as available statistics show.”56 (By comparison, the national rate was nearly ten per thousand lower. At these rates, a representative Mormon mother would average nearly five children, while her non-Mormon counterpart would be closer to 31/2. Joseph Fielding Smith – “. . . those who attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord, and to prevent their offspring from coming into the world . . . are guilty of one of the most heinous crimes in the category. There is no promise of eternal salvation and exaltation for such as they. . . “ Joseph F Smith “. . . I regret, I think it is a crying evil, that there should exist a sentiment or a feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. I think that is a crime whenever it occurs, where husband and wife are in possession of health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity. I believe that where people undertake to curtail or prevent the birth of their children that they are going to reap disappointment by and by. I have no hesitancy in saying that I believe this is one of the greatest crimes in the world today, this evil practice. . . .” David O McKay – “The viewpoint of the Church,” he wrote on another occasion, “.. . is that the use of artificial preventatives is strictly out of line, as long as the health of the wife is not seriously impaired by childbearing.” 1976 Handbook of Instruction (as one who is aware that the old handbooks exist out there on the internet, I am confident that Birth Control was not discussed in the handbook earlier and the position was softened in later editions)(Spencer Kimball President) – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/BirthControl1976.png   (Close Up) Bruce R McConkie – Mormon Doctrine – “”Those who practice birth control—the regulation of births in a family by the employment of artificial means or contraceptives to prevent conception—are running counter to the foreordained plan of the Almighty. They are in rebellion against God and are guilty of gross wickedness.”   Give the Church a compliment here.  Express that on this issue they have been moderately healthy and outside of some really early quotes and the 1976 Handbook anomaly they have been moderate and credit should be given to Bruce R McConkie and Mormon Doctrine for the proliferation of the unhealthy view that associated Birth Control with wickedness and somewhat unredeemable forgiveness   B.) CURRENT TEACHINGS The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife. Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple. Elective abortion as a method of birth control, however, is contrary to the commandments of God.   INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE (Black African Descent Only) AS SIN A.) Early Teachings against Inter-racial Marriage Brigham Young 1852 Speech on Slavery “Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth; we will summons the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishoprick, and all the elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction,–we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until that curse be removed.” –   Is this a false Prophesy or Was the Priesthood taken from the Church?   In light of “Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng “If they [the couple and child] were far away from the Gentiles [non-Mormons] they wo[ul]d all have to be killed[.] [W]hen they mingle seed it is death to all. If a black man & white woman come to you & demand baptism can you deny them? [T]he law is their seed shall not be amalg[a]mated. Mulattoes are like mules[,] they can’t have the children, but if they will be Eunuchs for the Kingdom of God’s Heaven’s sake they may have a place in the Temple.” “In the priesthood I will tell you what it will do. Where the children of God to mingle there seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the priesthood upon themselves but the entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it. If a man in an unguarded moment should commit such a transgression, if he would walk up and say cut off my head, and kill man woman and child it would do a great deal towards atoneing for the sin. Would this be to curse them? no it would be a blessing to them. -it would do them good that they might be saved with their Bren. A man would shuder should they here us take about killing folk, but it is one of the greatest blessings to some to kill them, allthough the true principles of it are not understood.”   B.) People were punished for inter-racial marriage up to the 1960’s Under Wilford Woordruff – “In the late 1800s at least two white members were denied church ordinances after they had married a black person. In 1895, a white woman was denied a temple sealing to her white husband because she had previously married a black man, even though she had divorced him.[60]: 78–79  First Presidency member George Q. Cannon argued that allowing her access to the temple would not be fair to her two daughters, whom she’d had with her former husband.[61]: 78 [60]: 37 [62] Another white man was denied the priesthood in 1897 because he had married a black woman, though, then senior apostle Lorenzo Snow stated that the man would be eligible if he divorced his wife and married a white woman.[60]: 79, 83  Additionally, Cannon recorded in his journal having stated in 1881 that when it came to the important question of interracial marriage, Mormons believed against “intermarriage with inferior races, particularly the negro.” [1966], President McKay addressed a similar issue regarding a woman who had been to the temple and subsequently married a black man. The woman was told by her local Church leader ‘that no further Temple visits would be allowed her, and that[,] because of her marriage to a Negro[,] her Temple endowments are ineffective.’ McKay overruled the invalidation of her endowments but did prevent her from visiting the temple again. – DOCUMENTATION 1  & DOCUMENTATION 2 C.) Inter-racial Marriage still recommended against Lesson 31 (Aaronic Priesthood Manual)  – Choosing an Eternal Companion – “We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144).” ETERNAL MARRIAGE STUDENT MANUAL PDF Page 180 but strangely removed from Page 199 where the quote is only partially repeated “We are grateful that this one survey reveals that about 90 percent of the temple marriages hold fast. Because of this, we recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question.” Weird Topic with nothing of substance   (Quote haven’t hidden anything)   MASTURBATION A.) Boyd K Packer “To Young Men Only” B.) Spencer W. Kimball – Use Mormon Think to show the litany of quotes C.) Mark E Petersen – Weirdest correlated talk ever in the Church “First counselor George A. Smith tells the Salt Lake School of the Prophets about “the evil of Masturbation”  /  (September) Branch presidents at the Missionary Training Center receive a 21-point handout to help “both male and female” missionaries avoid masturbation. Point 19: “In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.” In a May 1995 article about masturbation, the national magazine ‘Details’ publishes seventeen of these recommendations and identifies Apostle Mark E. Petersen as the suthor of ‘Steps in Overcoming Masturbation: A Guide To Self-Control.’ In 1996, a spokesman at LDS headquarters denies that Elder Petersen authored this document and denies it was ever officially distributed.” First I just have to say, any youth given this talk to curb their “self abuse” of their “little factory” was almost assuredly thinking more often about masturbation after reading this and inevitably touching themselves more not less. #13 – Arise immediately in the mornings. Do not lie in bed awake, no matter what time of day it is. Get up and do something. Start each day with an enthusiastic activity.Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring. Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding.  Avoid people, situations, pictures or reading materials that might create sexual excitement. It is sometimes helpful to have a physical object to use in overcoming this problem. A Book of Mormon, firmly held in hand, even in bed at night has proven helpful in extreme cases.  In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep. D.) Stance has softened in recent years AND I EXPECT SUCH TO CONTINUE Ensign – “How, When, and Why: Talking to Your Children about Sexuality” “It is important for parents to find a balance between helping children understand the why behind God’s commandment that sexual behavior occur within a marriage relationship, while also not reacting with disgust or anger when children engage in self-touching or youth admit to masturbating.” Most recent Handbook says Masturbation not grounds for formal discipline TEACHINGS ON SEX GENERALLY A.) President Joseph F. Smith stated – [T]he Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has formulated no special rules governing the associations of married people. . . . [A]s to their mutual conduct in the marital relation, so far as sexual intercourse is concerned, they are left entirely free. – Joseph F. Smith To Frank S. Bellings, FEB. 17, 1905. B.) President Joseph Fielding Smith stated when asked a similar question by an anonymous female member “The Brethren feel that the question which you raise is such as should be answered by you and your husband and in accordance with your own convictions. The Church has never believed it necessary to issue instructions pertaining to intimate relations between husband and wife.” – Joseph Anderson – Secretary to the 1st Presidency to L.A. Mar 23 1971  C.) Others Statements- “[S]exual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.” D.) “Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love within marriage.” ________________________ RFM ADDITION–I THINK THE CHURCH’S OBSESSION (DARE I CALL IT THAT?) WITH VIRTUE AND CHASTITY HAS LED TO THE STRANGE SITUATION OF THE CHURCH USING GREAT WORKS OF ART TO ILLUSTRATE CHRISTIAN-RELATED THEMES, BUT MODIFYING THEM TO MAKE THEM ACCEPTABLE TO THE STRICT RULES OF THE LAW OF CHASTITY. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/12/30/gordon-monson-when-lds-church/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/12/29/latter-day-saints-alter-nativity/ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11588083/Mormon-Church-condemned-photoshopping-painting-Virgin-Mary-cover-bust-shoulders.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490 NOTE–IT IS THE LAST ARTICLE LINKED ABOVE FROM THE DAILY MAIL THAT SHOWS THE PRIOR MODIFICATIONS.   RESOURCES: https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/1982_Temple_Recommend_Adjustments_Oral_Sex.jpg   https://radiowest.kuer.org/current-events/2021-04-22/the-sexual-history-of-the-lds-church https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/12/HealthyLDSSexuality-Mormon-Discussion-Podcast.pdf  https://eternalintimacy.weebly.com/whats-allowed-after-marriage.html  https://www.mormonmatters.org/prophetic-counsel-about-sex-within-marriage-a-brief-history/  https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/LDS-First-Presidency-Oral-Sex-Letter.jpg  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2012/10/trial-of-your-faith?lang=eng https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mormon-sex-religion_n_6669892  https://www.ranker.com/list/facts-about-mormon-intimacy/lindsayweglarz https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/birth-control?lang=eng&cid=14503511667      https://archive.org/details/reliefsocietymag03reli/page/n403/mode/2up?view=theater&q=birth+control     https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N02_14.pdf     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_and_Mormonism#Birth_control_and_abortion    https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/Birth%20Control%20Family%20Size.htm  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_chastity  https://www.danielaburgess.com/blog/2019/11/20/oral-sex  https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N02_14.pdf   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_on_masturbation_in_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints  http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm  https://www.mrm.org/topicsdocuments-speechesbrigham-youngs-1852-speech-slavery   http://www.connellodonovan.com/black_white_marriage.html https://rationalfaiths.com/blacks-and-the-priesthood-revisted/ https://ia903006.us.archive.org/29/items/LowryNelson1stPresidencyExchange/Lowry_Nelson_1st_Presidency_Exchange.pdf  https://proveallthingsholdfasttogood.wordpress.com/exploring-the-divinity-of-the-ban/  The post Mormonism LIVE: 109: The LDS “Mormon” Church’s Teachings on Sex appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

RFM and Bill take a deeper look at the “Book of Mormon” and compare what we know about it with what we know about other books to see if it is as un unique as believers claim it to be and we even get Mormon Scholar, Brian Hales opinion on the matter. This past week on Mormonism LIVE we covered “Automatic Writing” in the episode, Mormonism LIVE: 108: Is The Book of Mormon Unique? A Great Article to read that delves into this in regards to its connection to Mormonism is here – https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/050-16-26.pdf Here are the connections between Smith’s “Translation” of the Book of Mormon and the data behind automatic writing. 1.) Some of the Authors within “Automatic Writing” seemed to have a serious lack of education 2.) Their writings contained details that indicated antiquity that the author couldn’t of known ( [O]ne time while he [Joseph] was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered ‘Yes,’ he replied ‘Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.”) 3.) Able to discern things about the foreign lands and times that had a degree of accuracy to them. 4.) many “Automatic Writing” examples contained significantly less anachronisms than the book of Mormon 5.) “Automatic Writing” authors used a peep stone or crystal 6.) “Automatic Writing” authors moved away from a peep stone which they needed at first to being able to translate without one. 7.) Many of the significant “Automatic Writing” productions were Christian themed 8.) Some contained the voice of Christ 9.) Many were done by dictation 10.) At Least one stated its purpose was to answer three big questions “Where did we come from”, “Why are we here”, and “Where are we going”? 11.) Many of these productions were significantly longer than the “Book of Mormon”. 12.) many proposed to claim they were being given by voices of ancient people from antiquity 13.) several “Automatic Writing” authors were able to stop and take breaks and pick up exactly where they left off without being reminded where they were. ( According to Emma, when she and Joseph were interrupted during his translating, Joseph would later resume on the very sentence from which he had left off ) 14.) numerous others found the “”Automatic Writing” to be believable 15.) numerous people found the “automatic writing” productions to be of a high quality of writing. For example Jane Eyre is believed to have been written this way. 16.) numerous others found some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions to be inspiring and worth basing one’s lived spirituality on. 17.) some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions were written to a world audience with revealed knowledge important to Salvation 18.) some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions seemed to pass the tests of appearing to be from antiquity and contained little to no contemporary material. (compare to the amount of 19th Century material in the Book of Mormon). 19.) much of the “Automatic Writing” productions claim to be channeling a divine source. (Gift and Power of God) 20.) Many “Automatic Writing” productions seemed to be beyond the competency of the person performing the “Automatic Writing”. 21.) some “Automatic Writing” productions were not only done by dictation but also had many words spelled out specifically 22.) many “Automatic Writing” productions contained really deep gems that were thought provoking. Poems, and passages that seem inspiring generally. 23.) reading “Automatic Writing” productions caused awe and wonder in their readers. (they essentially felt the spirit reading them) 24.) many “Automatic Writing” productions get a ton of things onto paper quickly such as 5000 words in a single evening ( Starting on April 7th, 1829, Joseph Smith began translating the Book of Mormon. He completed his translation on July 1st of that year—just 90 days! That makes for an average of about 8 pages per day. )   Hence Joseph Smith as an “Automatic Writer” makes incredible sense and has significant overlap and suggests that the Translation of the Book of Mormon is both NOT Unique, and NOT even that good compared to other examples of “Automatic Writing” such as these * The Sorry Tale – https://archive.org/details/sorrytaleastory01currgoog/page/n6/mode/2up * The Urantia Text – https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online * The Course in Miracles – https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/A_Course_in_Miracles_Text.pdf * Jane Eyre – https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1260/1260-h/1260-h.htm RESOURCES:https://archive.org/details/sorrytaleastory01currgoog/page/78/mode/2uphttps://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1542&context=jbms#:~:text=Some%20critics%20of%20the%20Book,claimed%20communi%2D%20cations%20with%20spiritshttps://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-onlinehttps://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V52N02_1.pdfhttps://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/050-16-26.pdfhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/A_Course_in_Miracles_Text.pdfhttps://archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/glastonbury-abbey.htm https://gospeltangents.com/2021/10/automatic-writing-bill-davis/ – This is the the source for the three minute clip with Brian Hales talking about automatic writing. This segment is from an interview by Rick Bennett on his video podcast “Gospel Tangents” on the episode titled “Automatic Writing/Bill Davis’s Visions of Seer Stone” The post Mormonism LIVE: 108: Is The Book of Mormon Unique? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

I’m going to let you into my head for a moment. Don’t say I didn’t warn you. Have you ever considered the amount of violence and deception in Mormonism’s past and present and pondered all the reasons for folks to feel fear or personal risk in exposing Mormonism? The post Mormon Discussion: 378: Mormonism & Two Tickets to Crazy Town appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Sheri Dew recently gave a Devotional Talk titled “Prophets Can See Around Corners” at BYU Hawaii on Nov 1st 2022. Bill and RFM take a deep look into this talk to see if what sort of apologetic tricks and absurd claims Sheri Dew makes this time around. Make some hot chocolate, grab a slice of fruitcake, and sit down by the fire, because Reel and RFM are going to fill your stockings with some Christmas Tidings and Apologetic Fallacies and Yuletide Cheer. RESOURCES: Sheri Dew’s Talk – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqFKbnzuF-M Gordon B Hinkley’s 1998 Priesthood Talk – https://youtu.be/J2mcY_SkZSI President Nelson Not Knowing about Covid Coming – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/04/11nelson?lang=eng President Nelson’s Stated Impetus vbehind the #HearHim – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/the-story-behind-my-global-prayer-of-gratitude?lang=eng The post Mormonism LIVE: 107: Sheri Dew You Know – A Not So Christmas Special appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

This week we explore DezNat or a loosely connected group of folks who claim to be Deseret Nationals. We explore their violent rhetoric and their problematic ideology and we even have a former DezNat follower to help us add context to this story. #DezNat RESOURCES: Wiki DezNat – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DezNat DezNat Twitter – https://twitter.com/DeseretNation DezNat Exposed – https://exposedeznat.noblogs.org/ DezNat Exposed Twitter – https://twitter.com/exposedeznat REFERENCES IN THE SHOW: The Corbridge Manuever Part 1 – https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/03/radio-free-mormon-057-the-corbridge-manuever-part-1/ The Corbridge Manuever Part 2 – https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/03/radio-free-mormon-058-the-corbridge-manuever-part-2/ Wrong Roads – https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/05/extra-radio-free-mormon-wrong-roads/ Nancy Rigdon & The Happiness Letter – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUtmzt3fJc The post Mormonism LIVE: 106: DezNat Exposed appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.