In this episode, Hans-Werner Kaas, senior partner emeritus at McKinsey & Company and co-author of The Journey of Leadership: How CEOs Learn to Lead from the Inside Out, discusses how empathy, vulnerability, and purpose define successful leadership. Drawing from his decades of coaching global CEOs and his role in McKinsey's Bower Forum, Hans-Werner emphasizes that true leadership starts with self-awareness and the ability to form meaningful connections.Hans-Werner challenges the outdated notion that leaders must always be the smartest or most authoritative. Instead, he argues that vulnerability is a strength, fostering trust and openness in teams. By sharing personal struggles, embracing feedback, and admitting mistakes, leaders build bonds that enhance collaboration and innovation. He also highlights the importance of empathy, noting that immersing oneself in others’ perspectives creates trust and inspires purpose-driven cultures.The Bower Forum’s model is presented as a practical framework for leadership development. It encourages leaders to create personal “commitment plans” focused on self-growth, team leadership, and organizational impact. Hans-Werner shares stories of CEOs who transformed their leadership styles by adopting empathy and a willingness to learn from failures. He advocates for “fearless learning,” which involves questioning assumptions, adapting to new realities, and using setbacks as growth opportunities.Key takeaways include:Reflect on Leadership Style: Examine how you respond to mistakes and feedback. Identify one behavior to improve trust with your team.Build Genuine Connections: Engage in meaningful conversations to understand team members’ perspectives and challenges.Challenge Long-Held Beliefs: Reevaluate assumptions and explore how adapting them can lead to better decisions.Practice Fearless Learning: Analyze setbacks without assigning blame and outline actionable steps to improve.Create a Commitment Plan: Define goals for leading yourself, your team, and your organization, and revisit them regularly.Hans-Werner’s insights demonstrate that leadership success today hinges on authenticity and emotional intelligence. By fostering a culture of care, trust, and adaptability, leaders can create resilient and high-performing organizations. Vulnerability, self-awareness, and empathy are not just traits of effective leaders—they are essential for building thriving teams and achieving sustainable success.Links/Resources:Website: https://www.mckinsey.com/Bower Forum: https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/how-we-help-clients/mckinsey-academy/executive-programs/bower-forumBook: https://www.amazon.com/Journey-Leadership-CEOs-Learn-Inside/dp/0593714210/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hanswernerkaas/Send Marcel a text message!

Why do some organizations thrive in collaboration, innovation, and resilience while others struggle with stagnation and silos? How can leaders build a culture that inspires risk-taking, fosters diversity, and drives ethical success?In this episode, we have invited Dr. Mary Murphy, a social psychologist, Stanford graduate, and protégé of mindset pioneer Carol Dweck. Dr. Murphy's groundbreaking research builds on Dweck's work to explore how organizations, not just individuals, adopt mindsets that profoundly influence performance, motivation, and inclusion. She introduces the concept of "Cultures of Growth" versus "Cultures of Genius" and unpacks the transformative power of creating a learning-focused organizational culture. If you're ready to revolutionize your team's dynamics and embrace a sustainable path to growth, this episode is your blueprint.Summary:Dr. Mary Murphy explains that fixed mindset cultures focus on "star performers" and collecting top talent, while growth mindset cultures believe everyone can develop and contribute with the proper support. She discusses the negative consequences of a fixed mindset or "culture of genius" environments, such as risk aversion, lack of collaboration, and ethical issues. In contrast, growth mindset cultures are more inclusive, innovative, and supportive of employee development.Dr. Murphy provides practical advice for leaders to foster a growth mindset culture. This includes understanding your and your team's mindset triggers, strategically using feedback and praise to encourage growth, and creating an environment where mistakes are seen as learning opportunities. She emphasizes the importance of equity, not just equality, in supporting the unique needs of each team member. Dr. Murphy also shares examples of strong growth mindset cultures, like Patagonia, that focus on sustainable and regenerative organizational practices. The key is continuous attention to culture to prevent regression to a fixed mindset environment.Quotes:●     "Mindset isn't just located in our mind. As I said, it is influenced by the people in the situations around us. And so the solution changes to not just get people to change their minds, but to change the culture around them so that everyone is naturally moved more to their growth mindset most of the time."●     "In the culture of growth, we see that you can put in some learning structures so that we can understand the measured risks we want to take. We can create sort of small experiments along the way."●     "An equity lens means that we might be giving different things to different people. It's not equality, giving everyone the same thing. It's understanding where people are in the moment and what different individuals need to be successful to grow and develop maximally."Takeaway:●     Identify your mindset triggers - the situations that tend to push you towards a fixed mindset. Be aware of these triggers so you can proactively manage them.●     Provide "wise feedback" to your team members - start by expressing your high standards and belief in their ability to meet those standards before providing specific, actionable feedback.●     Implement a "favorite mistakes" practice in your team meetings - have everyone share a mistake they made that led to valuable learning.●     Solicit critical feedback from your direct reports and model how to receive it with a growth mindset. Show them how you plan to use the feedback to improve.●     Focus on equity, not just equality, when developing your team. Provide different resources and support based on each person's unique needs and goals.Timestamps:[03:49] Dr. Murphy's story: How her multicultural upbringing shaped her research[06:27] CulturesSend Marcel a text message!

Quotes:Marcel begins his conversation with world-renowned CEO Alan Mulally by exploring Alan’s background and upbringing, which heavily influenced his leadership style and life of service. As they dive into the slide stack, Alan shares pivotal lessons and words that shaped his early life and career at Boeing and Ford, including a statement that embodies his “Working Together” system: “By ‘working together’ with others, you can make the most positive contribution to the most people.” [18:47]Alan Mulally and his trusted advisor Sarah McArthur designed the “Working Together” system to foster a connected and collaborative culture of love by design. Alan highlights the key elements of his operating system, starting with its most important principle: people first... love ‘em up. "Love" as a guiding word for organizational processes marks a profound shift from traditional leadership approaches. Alan clarifies his intention behind the word love, stating, “I’m not looking for a date... this means I LOVE humanity, and we’re going to work together and align around, including everybody, a compelling vision, a comprehensive strategy for achieving it, and relentless positive implementation.” [27:04]Alan illustrates the transformative impact of the "Working Together" system with examples from his time at Boeing and Ford. One such example is the 1990 agreement for the development of the Boeing 777. This collaborative effort was so powerful that the first pilots of the plane requested it be named Working Together. Quoting the pilots, John Cashman and Kenny Higgins, Alan recalls: “We have never had a working together experience like this... This airplane is going to be phenomenal.” [37:39]Alan clearly outlines the goals and expectations he sets with his teams at every step. For today’s listeners and viewers, he highlights the Ford Creating Value Roadmap included in the slides. Alan emphasizes that these expectations are always developed collaboratively. In this case, the team created an acronym—FORD—to outline the process, which culminates in the essence of his philosophy: “The essence of everything is working together globally using our expected behaviors.” [43:52]Alan explains the “Working Together” leadership and management system as consisting of five key elements. It starts with the Principles and Practices discussed earlier in the episode, followed by implementation through Governance, Leadership Team, Creating Value Roadmap, and Business Plan Review. He describes this system as an ever-spinning circle revisited weekly to ensure its effectiveness. “The reason this is called a system is because you need to do this over and over again.” [55:43]Alan is also known for his remarkable work-life balance, which he attributes to the alignment of authentic leadership with the Be and Do of the “Working Together” system. He describes this alignment as an authentic, integrated One Life and Life’s Work of Service, calling it “our love made visible.” Alan challenges listeners to reflect by filling out a chart from one of the slides, identifying their Who, What, Why, and How. “This is one of the biggest contributions we can each make by moving in this direction, because we don’t have to go tell everybody about it... They can see it.” [1:04:34]Key Takeaways:Alan Mulally shares a heartfelt conclusion, tying together the Be and Do of “Working Together.” He leaves listeners with well wishes and advice: “Start in the morning with your partner [yourself]... and ask if there is anything else you need to do to serve as you live with humility and love. It’s amazing what it will mean to your life.” [1:24:22] Send Marcel a text message!

Episode Recap:Marcel speaks with Nathalie Gerschtein, President of L’Oréal’s Consumer Products Division in North America. Nathalie discussed her journey as a leader and her experiences moving up the ranks. They also explored topics such as psychological safety, unleashing human magic, and the concept of love as a leadership strategy, with Nathalie sharing her experiences as a mother working abroad and her journey to becoming the first woman to lead L'Oréal's Consumer Products Division in North America. Nathalie emphasized the need for women to remain ambitious and not apologize for their drive and to be open to learning from others. The conversation concluded with a discussion on the importance of leading with love and ambition in the workplace.Get Access to the Green Room on Substack! Get exclusive access to the Green Room for bonus material and actionable steps not available anywhere else.Quotes:The leaders that rose to the top during the pandemic are those who quickly figured out how to come together as a team, even in a remote setting. Guest Nathalie Gershetin explains how she adapted amidst the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020: “Sometimes pivot is perfection. We’re not going to get everything right, but we have to be really tight as a team.” [6:04]Nathalie elaborates on the concept of the growth zone, emphasizing the importance of finding a balance between extending oneself to try new things and learning, even through failure, while maintaining grace and allowing time for growth. “If we stay static and remain always in our comfort zone, we don’t learn anything. But if we stretch ourselves too much, then we are in the panic zone all the time, and we won’t be able to learn as much.” [8:40]Marcel poses an intriguing question to Nathalie: How does psychological safety within a corporate team affect the consumer? Nathalie reveals that psychological safety is the key to fostering innovation and creative thinking. “Either we get comfortable and we always use the same ‘recipe,’ but then we’re not going to give the best to our consumers OR we really debate ideas and decide if this is the best innovation.” [14:50]What is "Love in Action" to Nathalie? She describes it as the concept of being a "Learn It All Leader," not a "Know It All Leader." Nathalie underscores the importance of empathetic leadership that integrates love and learning into practice. “I’m not here to explain to my team everything they should do, how they should do it, and what is the best way to get everything right. I am here to be wisdom on the journey of learning, and I am here to also learn from them.” [16:50]Many leaders are parents, and being candid about that can make you a better leader! Nathalie shares how her vulnerability as a working and traveling mother empowers her team members facing similar challenges. “I talk about my daughter at the office, and I think it's good because it enables other women to talk about it. It is not a taboo…I am a mother.” [25:15]Nathalie offers advice for young women entering the industry and pursuing leadership roles. She emphasizes the need to shift paradigms and encourage women to embrace boldness and imperfection. “Remain ambitious and don’t apologize for your ambition.” [27:50]Key Takeaway: Nathalie inspires listeners to prioritize their employees as a cornerstone of success. “In order to be successful in the marketplace, you have to be successful in the workplace.” [33:16]Mentioned in this episode:Nathalie Gerschtein on LinkedIn Send Marcel a text message!

Episode Recap:Career development is broken, and our expectations have not kept pace with the reality of today’s workplace, according to today’s guest, Julie Winkle Giulioni. Julie co-authored the classic bestseller Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go, which has been re-released in an expanded version. Julie argues that career development is the single most powerful tool managers have for driving retention, engagement, productivity, and results, and she provides managers with the types of conversations they must have with their employees. Today, we’re talking about developing and growing employees.Get Access to the Green Room on Substack! Get exclusive access to the Green Room for bonus material and actionable steps not available anywhere else.Quotes:Treating development as an annual checkmark, an “I don’t have time” mentality, and talent scarcity—these are all common mistakes managers make when it comes to career development. Guest Julie Winkle Giulioni explains the challenges in organizational career development. “There are assumptions that lie under the surface, that drive behavior that is not in the leader, nor the employee, nor the organization's best interest.” [13:07]Development is driven by relationships and conversations—small pockets of time already enveloped in the time we’re spending with our team. It’s all about conversation. Julie profoundly exclaims that it’s not about something on your to-do list; it's about who you are. “The key is to underburden ourselves as leaders when it comes to development.” [15:58]It’s no secret that organizations have gone through a lot of changes since the pandemic. With more people working remotely, productivity and performance have continued to be maintained—but what about development? Julie dedicated an entire chapter to this quandary. After surveying, she found it’s all about intentionality—something as simple as weekly one-on-ones with five minutes centered on development. “There is no silver bullet. What you need to do is everything you would do with people who are co-located but do it with greater intention.” [22:40]Straight up is not the only path for your development. Julie shares an analogy that compares the career ladder to rock climbing—the challenge and experience that comes from stretching out and trying something new right where you are, with *and* without support. “We are always feeling like growth looks like going somewhere else, when the truth is the only thing we have full control over in our work is our work... and there is so much room for improvement there.” [32:19]The world is changing, and we are all aware of it. Roles are changing, jobs are changing, so how can we future-proof our careers? When Julie looks into her “crystal ball,” she shares her vision for the future of career development over the next decade. “Less of a focus on pathways, and more of a focus on possibilities.” [37:12]Hopes, dreams, fears, aspirations… these are all parts of development and represent a truly intimate way we interact with our teams. Leaders who embody this—it’s love in action. “Attending someone's development is the most loving way we interact as leaders with those around us.” [40:00]Key Takeaway: Julie brings home the episode with a final thought and the idea behind all her work: “Development is not a to-do. Development is a to-be. It’s a relationship. It’s how we show up day in and day out.” [40:40]Mentioned in this episode:Website: Julie Winkle GiulioniSend Marcel a text message!

Episode Recap:Marcel and guest Mitch Warner discuss the impact of Arbinger Institute’s work, particularly the book "Leadership and Self-Deception," on organizational transformation and the importance of self-awareness and humility in leadership. They also explored the concept of self-deception and its impact on decision-making and relationships, emphasizing the need for accurate perception and the ability to see oneself and others clearly for effective leadership. Lastly, they discussed strategies for overcoming self-deception and improving workplace relationships, including adopting an “outward mindset.”Get Access to the Green Room on Substack! Get exclusive access to the Green Room for bonus material and actionable steps not available anywhere else.Quotes:“This new need in my life is all-consuming; it’s the need to be justified for not seeing you and responding to you truthfully, as a person. So how do I get that justification? In the very way I got it in that moment—by seeing you and me falsely, by deceiving myself.” [14:20] Guest Mitch Warner discusses self-deception across both the workplace and personal life. Self-deception is essentially lying to ourselves, often resulting in misplaced blame and sacrificing our happiness, success, and results. “We will never see the lie that we’re telling ourselves, even though we’re the ones telling it. Because we need it and want it to be true, so we have to look for the red flags.” [19:10] Mitch emphasizes that we rarely recognize our own self-deception. Instead, we must stay vigilant for warning signs in our behavior. These red flags may appear in various forms, such as internally “lawyering up” to justify actions or avoiding others entirely. These signals suggest that something may be amiss, and we need the courage to follow them.“Anytime I, as a leader, walk around with an image of myself, that will undermine and undercut my effectiveness in every single leadership situation.” [22:29] Holding onto a particular self-image limits effective leadership, as Mitch explains. True leadership is about being present with and responsive to those around us without the interference of ego.“Anytime we encounter dysfunction, we find what we call collusion... groups that are mutually in self-destructive self-deception.” [30:24] This damaging behavior often permeates organizations at every level, creating a destructive “dance” in which self-deception feeds on itself across teams.“Once I’ve regained a sense of the humanity of the people around me, then I regain my effectiveness. Because now we’re just together in a different kind of connected way.” [32:45] Mitch illustrates how adopting an “Outward Mindset” changes our behavior by enabling us to see people as inherently valuable, as we see ourselves.Key Takeaway: “Go meet to learn, NOT meet to get.” [39:23] Mitch challenges listeners to schedule one meeting with no agenda—just genuine curiosity. This non-agenda conversation offers a chance to identify and address self-deception, fostering better understanding and collaborationMentioned in this episode:Leadership and Self-Deception - Get the book from ArbingerArbinger InstituteMatt Warner on LinkedInSend Marcel a text message!

Quotes:“This Venn diagram has been the story of my life. How do I achieve really cool, hard stuff and at the same time be the best human I can be?” [11:16] Urs Koenig has a diverse background in endurance sports and intense careers. Whether ultra biking or working as a NATO military peacekeeper, the most impactful part of his life was finding balance in being a good person—this inspired his book, Unlock Leadership’s Secret Weapon: Radical Humility.“People often tell me, ‘If I show up with humility, I’m a pushover; I have no spine; I have no confidence.’” [22:28] Dispelling myths about humble leadership and moving away from the "heroic leader" model, Urs explains that humility is actually a prerequisite for confidence and a strong sense of self. It allows leaders to be vulnerable and open to feedback—critical components of humility.“The soft stuff—building more self-awareness, showing up with vulnerability—it’s not soft. The soft stuff is tough.” [30:25] Urs shares a powerful story of vulnerability from the CEO of Intuit. Leading with humility requires immense courage, as well as the work involved in developing these "soft skills": journaling, reflection, accepting feedback, and applying the necessary focus and thought.“The Platinum Rule requires me to really know my people on a meaningful level, so I can treat them the way they want to be treated.” [35:04] Urs contrasts the Golden Rule, "treat others the way you want to be treated," which he calls selfish, with the Platinum Rule. The latter encourages leaders and teams to have conversations about how they want to be treated and receive feedback.“Humble leadership sometimes means raising your voice or giving clear, direct orders. Let me be very clear—this is not about name-calling or yelling. It's about being firm, direct, and inviting feedback, all with the goal of raising performance.” [46:23] Urs shares a story from his time as a NATO Peacekeeper Commander, explaining how strong, safe workplace cultures thrive on openness and feedback. It’s not about agreeing on everything, but about being receptive to criticism.“Schedule one 'deepening the relationship’ meeting with one of your teammates.” [51:22] Marcel and Urs discuss humble leadership throughout the episode. To make the shift to Radical Humility, Urs suggests starting with a first step: strengthen the relationship with one teammate this week.Key Takeaway: Urs Koenig closes the episode with this message: “Be tough on results, tender on people. The notion that we either have to be a good human or a tough leader is a false dichotomy. We can all courageously do hard things in a human way.” [53:52]Join Marcel on Substack!Subscribe to Marcel’s Substack and get exclusive access to the Green Room for post-episode conversations where Marcel and his guests give you practical advice to make you a better, more effective leader. Subscribers will also have access to live Green Room conversations and be able to interact with guests. Subscribe here. Mentioned in this episode:Urs KoenigUrs Koenig on LinkedInRadical Humility: Be a Badass Leader and a Good Human: Urs KoenigMarcel SchwantesMaSend Marcel a text message!

Quotes:“Othering is not according to someone else for expression, for dignity, for mutuality of their humanness. In some ways you’re saying they can be less than, conditional, or completely invisible and some way they don’t count.” [14:44] What is othering? john powell defines this important term and explains these expressions on a vast spectrum, from not acknowledging to genocide and ethnic cleansing. Othering happens on a gradient, being by one single person or entire groups like organizations and governments. “Those that can fit into the environment, those species actually thrive. But what happens when the environment changes? Can those species adapt? When the change is slow, inevitably yes. When the change is fast, it's not clear. [19:12] In 2024, it's clear that while in many ways we have become more accepting, the world is changing rapidly, causing anxiety and stress that increases instances of an expanding othering. “The driver is fear, and fear can be manipulated. Fear is not rational... How do you talk to the lizard brain? When fear is activated, it's not the prefrontal cortex; it's the amygdala, the part of the brain we share with the lizard…what this lizard is most afraid of? Not belonging. [50:43] As Marcel and john’s conversation shifts from othering to belonging, john explains that irrational part of our brain, “the lizard,” as the barrier we most often find to creating belonging. “A leader has many roles. But one role is to hold the container that holds everybody else... and tell the story. What does the company stand for?” [56:20] How can leaders create more belonging in their organization? The answer is to reflect the values of the institution as a priority. Create an atmosphere that makes it clear that human dignity is at the forefront. “Be hard on structures, and soft on people” [1:01:00] john brings attention to the need for systems and structures for harmony in the workplace, noting that too often it's the people we are hard on and the structures we let off softly.Key Takeaway: Guest john a. powell closes out with a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” Commenting that it doesn’t just bend on its own; WE bend it, and even more so, we bend it toward belonging. As we move forward in history, we will move forward to a world where everyone belongs. Join Marcel on Substack!Get exclusive access to the Green Room for post-episode conversations where Marcel and his guests offer practical advice and strategies not heard anywhere else.Mentioned in this episode:Book: Belonging without Othering How We Save Ourselves and the WorldOthering & Belonging Institutejohn a. powellEddie Pate and Jonathan Stutz: How to Build a Culture of Belonging with Small Daily Actions (Ep #226)Marcel Schwantes on LinkedInMarcel SchwantesSend Marcel a text message!

Quotes:“This research is not to vindicate the bad apples; it is in fact to tell leaders you have to look inward and decide…is it me or my employees?” [14:25] As Marcel and his guests dive into the research, Charn explains the introspection required by good leaders to understand if their leadership might be causing workplace deviance and the necessary steps from that point instead of just passing blame. “Are you socially aware enough of what is happening at work? The relationship between you and your employees? The relationship between the employees themselves? …If you’re really politically skilled, and if you’re a really good leader, you should be able to see the matrix.” [22:01] Parker Ellen discusses one of the foundations of political skill in a leader: social astuteness. This is all about taking a step back and seeing a different picture and how you may even be contributing to deviant behavior.“This is a time of transition in the workplace; if we can come at it from a collaborative place, we’ll have a lot of success.” [33:35] Katie Alexander touches on the coach and team mindset that younger generations are longing for in the workplaces that can provide feedback when needed but also create growth. This idea promotes the importance of a caring, hands-on, and dedicated leader that in many ways prevents workplace deviance. “Are they appearing like a ‘bad apple’ because I’m highlighting that aspect of them in the way that I lead?” [39:14] Parker challenges the idea that there are either good or bad ‘apples’ and extends the thought that there are tendencies to either have both deviant and compliant actions in many people. Moreover, on how your own tendencies to not be the best leader can react with that. “Take a second to listen to your employees and recognize why something might be happening. Sometimes on small affronts, we can attribute major things, but it might not be anything. That doesn't mean we can’t correct the behavior, but it also means we’ll have the ability to give them grace as a leader because we spent that time upfront. ”[46:55]  As all three guests share what love in action means to them, Charn shares a story from his time in the military exemplifying the need to give grace and again take a step back and see the whole picture in order to lead with love.  Join Marcel on Substack!Get exclusive access to the Green Room for post-episode conversations where Marcel and his guests offer practical advice and strategies not heard anywhere else.Mentioned in this episode:MIT Sloan Management Review article: Bad Apples or Bad Leaders?Charn McAllister on LinkedIncharn.mcallister@nau.eduCharn McAllister: It’s Important To Be Likable (Episode #50)Katie C. Alexander onLinkedInB. Parker Ellen III on LinkedInp.ellen@msstate.eduSend Marcel a text message!

Quotes:“The mind-heart connection is essential; we can’t expect that we’re just going to exercise, eat right, and be healthy, and run a multimillion dollar business and not avoid having a heart attack from all the stress we’re ignoring.” [11:45] Guest, Dr. Jonathan Fisher, describes the core message behind Just One Heart. Caring for the mind-heart connection within yourself AND between our peers with our physiological responses and influences.“If I have to face you [a cardiologist], that means I’m having heart issues. But if I can manage the heart through those 4 dimensions—physical, emotional, social and spiritual—and live the kind of life, having the proper balance that addresses those 4 areas...this is life-changing.” [17:34] Host Marcel Schwantes responds to Dr. Fisher’s explanation on how cardiologists should be gauging heart health with their short 7 minutes of face-to-face time in the patient exam room.“People who don't have a sense of their core purpose and meaning and transcendent sense of belonging in life... Those people are at higher risk of dying young from heart diseases.” [26:02] Dr. Fisher elaborates on the heart crisis of today riddled with obesity, depression, anxiety, loneliness, and loss of purpose. This ‘Doom and Gloom’ only proves to emphasize the extreme need to focus on multidimensional heart health. “I didn’t want to just avoid being sick. I wanted to live a good life.” [30:55] As he sets up the support for the message in his book, Dr. Fisher explains the 7 traits of a healthy heart that go beyond physical health. All listed in an intentional and meaningful order: Steadiness, Wisdom, Openness, Wholeness, Courage, Lightness, and Warmth.“We are often so harsh with ourselves... that it spills over and affects others negatively, and we don't know it until people tell us. So it begins by examining the way we speak to ourselves and treat ourselves. And we begin by treating ourselves with love and kindness.” [44:25] Working his way through the 7 traits from the book, Dr. Fisher poses step-by-step questions to assess and work on your heart. “If I can just pause and be a little gentler to myself and treat myself with some ease and lightness, there’s this amazing spillover effect that everyone else around me can feel.” [48:12] As Marcel and Dr. Fisher close out their conversation, Dr. Fisher reminds and encourages listeners to be kind to yourself. It goes a long way. Join Marcel on Substack!Subscribe to Marcel’s Substack and get exclusive access to the Green Room for post-episode conversations where Marcel and his guests give you practical advice to make you a better, more effective leader. Subscribers will also have access to live Green Room conversations and be able to interact with guests. Subscribe here. Mentioned in this episode:Jonathan Fisher, MD, FACCInstagram - @happyheartMDJonathan Fisher on LinkedIn Just One Heart: A Cardiologist’s Guide to Healing, Health, and HappinessEpisode 223: Dr. James Doty: The Neuroscience of ManifestationSend Marcel a text message!