I’m joined by Martin Dominguez Ball, a graphic designer who teaches design thinking at Fordham University. He’s also the cofounder at WOMB Service Design Lab. We’ll talk about what works for students in the design thinking classroom, how Martin has helped people wrestle through working visually, and the connections between design thinking, art, and making, as a teacher and practitioner. Martin, who hails from Uruguay, had a long path into design thinking. As an entrepreneur, he owned a business for over a decade, and mentions that he applied design thinking to this business without really knowing what it was. His passion, though, was being an artist. He eventually decided to close the company and pursue the things important to him: education and art. Tune in to the episode to learn how this process evolved into him teaching his design thinking course. In the process of getting his degrees, Martin developed a love for academia. Design thinking gave a framework to what he had been doing intuitively, and he fell in love with the methodology and method. You’ll hear him explain how this methodology gave him a different perspective on business and allowed him to get ahead of the curve by listening to what people were saying. Martin explains that he has observed that people often have strong assumptions of what the problem is, and getting rid of those assumptions can be a challenge and a point of frustration. He finds that teaching design thinking involves guiding students to think beyond the first or fastest idea or solution, and bringing them back to the drawing board over and over. Tune in to hear more about all these topics, as well as the excitement of seeing students understand the reason for certain methodologies, why design thinking isn’t the ideal answer for every problem that comes up, the value in prototyping (even if students are skeptical at the beginning), and the powerful effect that Martin’s eclectic background has on his approach to teaching design thinking. Learn More About Today’s Guest Martin Dominguez Ball Martin Dominguez Ball on LinkedIn Martin Dominguez Ball on Facebook Martin Dominguez on Behance In This Episode [01:17] — Martin introduces himself, and talks about his background and pathway to where he is now in design.[03:58] — We hear more about Martin’s experience of falling in love with design thinking.[07:15] — How has Martin’s approach and understanding evolved since the first moment of connection with design thinking? Martin answers, and talks about where people struggle with problem-finding.[11:14] — Martin talks about how people react to coming back to the original or needing to reassess their original assumptions.[14:24] — We hear about students’ “ah-hah” moments that Martin has seen, and feedback that students have given on how the class has changed things for them.[17:16] — How did Martin’s design thinking course come about? He answers, then elaborates on his “where does it fit?” question.[20:10] — Martin talks about whether the conflict between service-dominant logic and goods-dominant logic is involved in the conflict that he has just described.[23:23] — We hear about some things that have helped Martin to teach and lead people through a design process, and how the rest of the faculty has reacted to his course.[25:22] — Martin provides more information about the design lab that he and his wife run.[28:15] — What would Martin’s advice be to an entrepreneur who is interested in developing a new service or improving an existing service?[30:11] — We hear about where Martin sees design thinking going in the next few years.[33:38] — Dawan shares some of his own thoughts about explaining how design thinking works as a way of moving from problem-situation to solution-situation.[36:42] — Martin talks about the value of prototyping.[39:13] — We hear more about how Martin helps people work more visually and see the value in doing so.[43:37] — What are Martin’s thoughts on how his mix of influences affects the way he approaches design thinking?[46:54] — Martin shares some resources that he has found particularly useful.[49:04] — Martin points out that he is constantly learning from his students, and relates this to his experience teaching guitar.[51:39] — Where can people learn more about Martin, his work, and his practice? Links and Resources Service Design Network Touchpoint Service Design in the Business Curriculum: Dispatches From the Field by Joan Ball, PhD and Martin Dominguez (Touchpoint article) IDEO.org IBM Design Thinking Field Guide

Tune into this episode for a fascinating conversation with Aaron Faucher, a product designer focused on design ethics and augmented reality. You’ll hear about lessons from his path into design for augmented reality and virtual reality with clients such as High Fidelity, Alpha Computing, and Designation Labs. We’ll also dig into how being a Master’s student at the Human-Computer Interaction Institute at Carnegie Mellon University builds on that experience, and where he sees his design practice going as he explores the intersection of UX design and emerging technologies. As Aaron shares, he’s early in his design career, and has been working professionally in the field for a bit over two years. His first exposure to design thinking was when he was an undergrad, when his focus was on social impact. He became obsessed with the question of where the logical end point of emerging technologies is, and started looking at technology as a social issue. Since then, Aaron has been trying to situate himself in the design world around augmented reality. At one point, Aaron learned about the concept of affordance, and the idea that we live in a state of action-potential in a digital world. This felt groundbreaking to him and helped him to rationalize the hyper-connected state that many people feel themselves in. He also explores the power of getting outside of the box of his own ideas. Aaron moved to the San Francisco Bay Area in August 2016 to try to find a job there, since that’s where a lot of AR and VR developments are happening. He worked on hustling and networking there, and describes the experience as a “trial by fire” that put him in his place as a designer. The process led to a couple of freelance opportunities. One thing led to another, and he has been able to work on some VR creation tools. Tune in to learn more about all these topics, as well as where Aaron sees his design career going in the future, questions that he wrestles with, the advice he would give to an undergraduate who is interested in his field, what resources he recommends to people who want to learn more, and much more! Learn More About Today’s Guest Aaron Faucher Aaron Faucher on Medium aaron.faucher@gmail.com Aaron Faucher on LinkedIn In This Episode [02:01] — We hear a bit about Aaron’s background and what brought him to where he is now.[05:16] — When Aaron made a connection between his design thinking experience and UI/UX, what in particular helped him recognize the connection?[06:39] — Aaron talks about how he has built the skills and connections to make the leap into his design career.[08:52] — Was there a moment or experience when Aaron’s thinking about design changed?[11:12] — We learn more about Aaron’s road into designing for AR and VR.[15:10] — Aaron talks about some opportunities and projects that came from his networking in the San Francisco Bay Area.[17:03] — What are some of the challenges and workarounds that Aaron faced in the projects he has been talking about?[20:14] — We hear more about Aaron’s thoughts on healthy versus unhealthy interactions.[23:43] — Where does Aaron think that things will go from here for him as a designer? What are some of the questions he’s wrestling with on his design journey?[27:03] — Aaron shares the recommendations he would give to an undergraduate who wants to enter into design in the AR/VR space.[29:59] — Are there any online references or books that have been exceptionally helpful in Aaron’s journey so far? Links and Resources Human-Computer Interaction Institute at Carnegie Mellon University HYPER-REALITY on Vimeo Unity Tutorials Kadenze Calm Technology by Amber Case Modern Medicine by Jonathan Harris

I’m joined by Eugene Korsunskiy. Eugene is a design thinking consultant and the Senior Coordinator of Design Initiatives at the University of Vermont. Both there and at Stanford, Eugene has taught classes like “Design Thinking” and “Designing Your Life.” In our conversation today, we’ll talk about how and why he became a designer, his insights from teaching “Designing Your Life” to Stanford students, and aspects of creating good design thinking learning experiences and design teams. When he was in college, Eugene thought he wanted to be an architect. As he studied architecture and interned in the field, he learned that it’s a lot more about fire codes and occupancy permits than he had hoped, and his romantic notions of the field faded away. He still knew, though, that he wanted to be in an occupation that involved creating something for people while using both halves of his brain. Eventually, design replaced architecture, and Eugene went to grad school for design instead. The most interesting part of a designer’s job, Eugene points out in an interesting case study he shares today, isn’t necessarily finding the information you were looking for; instead, it can be finding a weird discrepancy in the human condition. In another example, he explores the effect that a course on design thinking has on undergraduate students’ beliefs, especially the common belief that one’s major absolutely determines one’s career. Eugene and I will cover a wide range of other specific topics, including concerns that students (and parents) may have about and during his courses, how to “sneak up on your future” so your future doesn’t sneak up on you, what Eugene has gotten out of teaching his classes, the traits that makes the best leaders for design projects, and much more. Learn More About Today’s Guest Eugene Korsunskiy Eugene Korsunskiy on LinkedIn In This Episode [01:26] — We hear a bit about Eugene’s background and how he arrived where he is now.[05:45] — What were some of the early experiences in Eugene’s program that helped him make the conceptual shift from the solution side to the side of finding and solving problems for humans?[09:25] — Eugene shares his early experiences with design in his life.[13:36] — How did Eugene see students change from the beginning to the end of the course he has been talking about?[18:02] — Eugene talks about how he would convince a skeptical parent of a student that a course on design thinking is a valuable activity.[19:19] — What are some patterns where students struggle with Eugene’s courses?[22:19] — Students often have a hard time shifting away from the idea that there is one correct path, Eugene points out.[24:41] — What are the experiences and exercises that students go through to understand the key practices of designing your life?[29:58] — Eugene talks about how he would help a student who’s struggling with the multiple possible pathways by focusing on only one.[31:33] — What has teaching the class done for Eugene, and how has it affected him?[33:58] — We learn about a class that Eugene has been teaching for the last several months.[40:47] — Eugene talks more about design leadership, and the distinct set of skills, experiences, and methods involved in that.[48:23] — What if Eugene’s brief was to create an experience where everyone who goes through it emerges with the basics of design leadership?[50:59] — Eugene shares what’s going on with him and where he’s headed, including his upcoming plans to teach at Dartmouth.[53:21] — Where can people find out more about Eugene and his work? Links and Resources Design Thinking (course at the University of Vermont) Designing Your Life (course at Stanford) Bill Burnett Dave Evans Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans

I’m happy to announce that today’s guest is Nathan Ritter, a design researcher at IA Collaborative. We’ll talk about how his path to being a third-generation mechanical engineer turned into a design research career. We’ll also talk about transforming clients into design evangelists, before closing with a project that Nathan and his colleagues are working on to bring a design icon back to life. As you may have guessed, Nathan came to design from an engineering perspective. Going through a project to assist a woman with rheumatoid arthritis helped Nathan discover that, for him, human-centered design is more interesting than doing mechanical analysis on a computer screen. He changed his major, and continued his studies through a masters program. He points out that he’s not departing from the work of his forefathers so much as emphasizing a different part of the same process. In our conversation, you’ll hear about a time that Nathan was in grad school. He, along with a team of all men, were working on a project about feminine care products. He points out that having all men on the team was surprisingly not entirely a bad thing; it eliminated the often-present risk of designing for yourself. He’ll also talk about other challenges he’s faced, including the transition from academic project work to client services. If you’re curious about the basic skills that go into Nathan’s work, you’ll love this episode, in which he digs into some of the surprising skills he uses every day. He finds himself turning into a human thesaurus, for example, and comes back to writing (and verbal communication more broadly) over and over. He also emphasizes the importance of empathy, and the associated abilities to listen closely, reinterpret, and respond to what participants tell him. Nathan will also talk listeners through his multifaceted new client education process, the importance of having people understand who their customers are and what their customers are doing, how he moves from exploratory research into evaluative research, and more. Excitingly, you’ll also hear about his fascinating project to bring the incredible Humanscale tool back to life. Learn More About Today’s Guest Nathan Ritter Reissue of Humanscale on Kickstarter @nathanritter on Twitter In This Episode [01:40] — What brought Nathan to design, and how did his journey take place?[04:15] — We hear about how Nathan’s family of engineers took his career change from engineering into design.[07:25] — Nathan talks about a time when he was pulled into a leadership role during an opportunity for design research in grad school.[09:48] — What other kinds of leadership challenges has Nathan faced?[13:05] — We learn more about where Nathan usually starts with new client education and the multifaceted approach that he takes.[17:22] — How does Nathan know when the transformation that he has been talking about has occurred in someone? And how does he keep people fired up and on board, even though projects can take a while?[20:13] — Nathan takes a moment to explain the difference between two terms he has been using: “exploratory” and “evaluative.”[23:06] — We hear about how the relationship with a client can evolve, as well as some of the constraints and why it’s so important to engage the client in the design process.[24:56] — As a practitioner, what are some of the basic skills that Nathan uses on a day-to-day or regular basis?[27:42] — Nathan describes what it feels like when the design team (on his side) is humming along and functioning well.[30:16] — Dawan pivots into another topic: Humanscale. Nathan describes what this fascinating tool is, both in terms of its historic value and its efficacy as a tool.[35:45] — The problem with Humanscale is that it’s incredibly hard to find a set, and copies have sold on eBay for over $1,000 each, Nathan explains. He then reveals his solution: recreating the set thanks to funding from Kickstarter.[37:27] — Nathan talks about what sparked all of this for him.[42:52] — Where can people go to learn more about Nathan and his work? Links and Resources Humanscale IA Collaborative Henry Dreyfuss Associates

I’m excited to speak with Rebecca Horton, a designer, coach, and long-time colleague and friend. In our conversation, we’ll talk about how to coach and lead design teams, some design thinking methods she has found valuable, and how design thinking and coaching converge. Rebecca has always been interested in design, but believed as she grew up that you had to pick a discipline within design (such as being an interior designer, graphic designer, or fashion designer). In her early teenage years, she was fascinated by fashion design, and was captivated by runway shows on TV. She later went to college for political science and public policy because it was practical and pragmatic, and picking a specific design discipline didn’t appeal to her. After college, she discovered the design thinking field, which had the language to explain what she had been craving, and doesn’t force you to choose between disciplines. She returned to school, started her own practice, and worked in the corporate design world. In our conversation, Rebecca will dig into a specific example of an instance in which things didn’t go according to plan, which ended up being exactly the turning point that made her work so successful. She’ll also explain how she was able to maneuver and adjust to create this positive outcome from unexpected circumstances, and explore the controversy surrounding customer personas. As you listen, you’ll also hear powerful advice that you can apply to your own work and methods. For example, Rebecca advises clients to “welcome the stranger,” meaning that instead of telling someone unexpected to leave, invite them in and use the opportunity to understand why they might be there. Tune in to hear more about all of this, as well as Rebecca’s thoughts on blueprints, customer journey maps, and much more. Learn More About Today’s Guest Rebecca Horton Rebecca Horton on LinkedIn In This Episode [01:11] — Rebecca digs into how she got into design, what her early training was like, and how she got to where she is now.[03:27] — What have been some of the challenges or “aha!” moments that Rebecca has faced along her path so far?[07:59] — Rebecca talks about what ended up happening in the situation she has been describing, in which things didn’t end up going according to plan.[11:22] — What ended up happening as a result of what Rebecca has described is that the process became much more collaborative, she explains.[15:25] — We hear about the experiences that helped Rebecca get to a point where she was able to do the maneuvering, adjusting, and listening she has been describing?[16:48] — In co-creating with a student team or client team, what are some of the things that help them get past the initial hurdles with working with the design process?[18:33] — How would Rebecca describe how she approaches pulling together a set of tools that leads to solutions that stick or results that last in her work?[24:23] — Rebecca talks about some of the adaptations she’s had to make to using tools she learned as a student as she brings them into the world.[27:38] — We learn about Rebecca’s thoughts on customer personas.[30:58] — How would Rebecca differentiate her in-house experiences in using those tools from the experiences she’s had in her own consultancy?[34:21] — Rebecca discusses the resources and suggestions that she gives people who want to learn more about design thinking or how to bring it into their work.[37:40] — What are a couple of books that Rebecca would recommend? Her suggestions include The Design of Business, Moments of Impact, and The Power of TED*.[40:19] — Rebecca talks about how her experiences as a designer influence her as a coach.[42:20] — Where is Rebecca headed on her design journey?[44:58] — Rebecca talks about where people can find her to learn more about her and what she does. Links and Resources @southernindie on Twitter rebecca@thetrestles.com (Rebecca Horton) IDEO Service Design Global Conference Trestles The Design of Business by Roger Martin Moments of Impact by Chris Ertel and Lisa Kay Solomon The Power of TED* by David Emerald

Artemio “Arty” Rivera, a former designer at 3Pillar Global and current UX Lead at Capital One as well as a leader at Design Thinking DC, joins me today to talk about the learning experiences that grew his career, his insights from applying design thinking, and much more. When Arty was a child, he started sketching spaceships, aliens, and dresses. Later, as a teenager in 10th grade, he did a personal project in which he learned to make a website and got his first serious taste of technological design. In college at Stanford, he stumbled into the product design program at the d.school. Upon learning that he could do engineering and sketching in on major, he switched to studying product design. After graduation, he found a job in DC working as a UX designer. In our conversation, you’ll learn about how the beginning of his career went, and some of the early challenges and achievements he experienced. His first lesson, he explains, is how hard it is to convince an organization that designers and developers need to meet with the people they’re creating software for. Arty reveals in our conversation that if he could go back in time and give his younger self advice, it would be simply to “be more flexible.” When he first joined 3Pillar Global, he had a fixed idea of what design thinking should look like. Over time, he came to understand that it’s important to be conscious of how you apply the best practices to adapt to the client’s priorities and needs. We’ll spend some time chatting about the incredible Meetup group Design Thinking DC (or DT:DC) and the Summer of Design, which was created by DT:DC members. Arty will also share his thoughts on key topics such as how to talk to community partners about getting involved with a design project, and what he would tell an organization hiring a designer or design firm for the first time. Tune in to learn all about this, and much more! Learn More About Today’s Guest Artemio Rivera on LinkedIn @arty on Twitter In This Episode [01:20] — Arty starts off the conversation by talking a bit about his background and his path to where he is now.[08:08] — Coming from his perspective, what were some of the early challenges that Arty had to wrestle with in his career?[10:21] — We hear about Camellia George, a fantastic manager who Arty had early in his career.[13:22] — Arty talks about how he grew as a designer from the point he has been describing.[16:00] — How did Arty see the shift in the perceived value of design? He answers, then talks about where he is now.[21:14] — Arty discusses the differences between the way he approaches design now and the way he did earlier in his career.[26:50] — We hear Arty’s thoughts on how to get the needed level of trust and access to sensitive conversations.[32:00] — What message would Arty send to his younger self in terms of what he should expect in terms of applying design, if he was able to?[34:23] — Arty goes into more depth about what Design Thinking DC is. He and Dawan then chat about how they met.[40:55] — We learn about the Summer of Design, and how it came to be.[45:53] — What are some of the key things that Arty would tell someone to make sure they communicate to get a community partner to be involved with a design project?[48:25] — Arty talks about some of the impact that the Summer of Design teams have had in working with community partners.[51:46] — Dawan points out that this is a volunteer activity by the DT:DC leadership.[53:43] — How has Arty seen non-designers or people who are new to design get to the next level?[56:17] — If there were one message that Arty could communicate to any organization hiring a designer for the first time, what would it be?[60:26] — Arty digs deeper into the starting point if you’re already looking at transforming your organization.[63:18] — Where can people find out more about Arty and his work? He talks about his work at 3Pillar, as well as introducing his other project, ConSpot. Links and Resources 3Pillar Global Capital One d.school Camellia George Design Thinking DC Stephanie Rowe Summer of Design Jenn Gustetic Nathan Ritter Design & Thinking documentary ConSpot

Today’s guest is the remarkable Indi Young, author of Mental Models and Practical Empathy. Indi was a founder at Adaptive Path, and is one of the design field’s leading visionaries on how we develop an understanding of what people are trying to accomplish, and how to represent it in ways that support innovation. Indi’s background is in computer science, in which she has a degree from Cal Poly. In our conversation, she explains how her time there contributed to her learn-by-doing philosophy, as well as her interest in understanding what goes through people’s minds. She’ll also dig into what it means to research problem space, what practical empathy is and how to use it, and how to develop and maintain an understanding of how people think as an ongoing basis for Indi is focused on the same thing she’s been focused on all her life, but with a changing vocabulary around it: understanding the problem space. As you’ll hear, she tries to pull the problem space further and further away from the solution space to create a broader understanding. Problem-space research, as she points out, is evergreen. By splitting it off from being solution-focused, Indi hopes to bring attention to what people are actually doing. In our conversation, you’ll also hear about the ways in which empathy is more complex than sympathy or compassion. Indi compares the various aspects of empathy to a skilled worker with tools rolled up in a bundle. When the worker needs to use a tool, he or she unrolls the bundle and pulls out exactly the right tool from its individual pocket. This, Indi points out, is similar to empathy, which you use differently in different situations. Indi also digs deeply into the important ways in which empathy is different from emotional contagion, which many people don’t realize is a separate concept. She shares how important it is to support someone as part of empathy, rather than simply to feel what another person is feeling. Tune in to learn more about all of this and much more! Learn More About Today’s Guest Indi Young @indiyoung on Twitter Indi Young on LinkedIn Adaptive Path @AdaptivePath on Twitter Indi’s newsletter sign up In This Episode [01:38] — We learn more about what Indi is doing now, as well as why she focuses on the problem space instead of the solution space.[06:02] — Indi shares some of her background and talks about how it has influenced her.[09:10] — Indi talks about making what other people call “personas,” but which she calls “behavioral audience segments” or “thinking styles.”[11:13] — The book Mental Models has been really important to Dawan, he reveals. We then hear about how Indi’s ideas have developed between that book and her newer one, Practical Empathy.[15:35] — A lot of people are conflating emotional contagion with emotional empathy, Indi points out, and clarifies the difference.[19:59] — We hear more about the support piece of emotional empathy.[23:36] — Indi talks about her listening sessions (which she used to call “interviews”), and why she changed the vocabulary.[27:17] — Not judging people can be difficult on the airline side, Indi explains, and talks about how one can treat others with more empathy.[32:58] — Indi points out a phenomenon that when you’re in a position of authority, the person you’re talking to will try to please you, impress you, or tell you what you want to hear.[35:00] — Indi talks more about behavioral audience segments.[40:56] — The method that Indi has been discussing also emphasizes context. She offers a couple of examples of the relevance of context.[44:07] — How do characters, in the sense that Indi has been describing, float into the separation between the problem space and the solution space?[46:19] — Has Indi changed the way she thinks about multi-functional teams from a design standpoint?[48:24] — We hear about Indi brings people into a unique collaborative moment or space.[52:36] — What are some of the challenges that Indi is facing now, whether exciting or frustrating?[55:52] — Indi shares some of the things that have helped her get her clients comfortable with the kinds of investments needed to do the work she has been describing.[62:41] — Where can people find out more about Indi and her work? In her answer, she talks about how to get a discount on her books. Links and Resources Mental Models by Indi Young Practical Empathy by Indi Young Practical Empathy audiobook by Indi Young Describing Personas by Indi Young (Medium article) Liminal Thinking by Dave Gray Against Empathy by Paul Bloom Up (2009 film) Brené Brown on Empathy Inside Out (2015 film) “Inadvertent Algorithmic Cruelty” by Eric Meyer Rosenfeld Media

Natalie Foley joins me to talk about her design thinking and learning journey, and how she became the VP and COO at Peer Insight. We’ll also talk about the design process, some of the key methods that drive her work, and a pathway that organizations can use when developing their own internal design thinking capacity. Natalie talks in this conversation about what to do when you work with people who are user-centered and able to handle the ambiguity involved in design thinking. Her job as COO, she explains, is to give a guardrail or enough structure to enable people to be successful, without giving so much direction and structure as to stifle the process. She also emphasizes the value of small teams. You’ll hear that Natalie’s emotional journey to where she is now involved coming out of her undergrad experience feeling pretty smart and thinking that with every year of experience, she would get smarter. Stumbling on design thinking opened her eyes to a new perspective: she doesn’t have to be right, because her customers or the marketplace will tell her if she isn’t. Instead, the more important angle is to know how to run a good experiment. The design process that Natalie uses typically involves four questions. The first is “what is?” The second question, or the ideation portion, is “what if?” This second part is anchored on the first question. After this brainstorming portion, the third question is “what wows?” This involves asking people what they think about some of the ideas that came out of the brainstorming process. The final question is “what works?” Our conversation will also cover what Natalie’s clients initially present as their desired outcomes, and how that changes during the course of their interaction with Natalie and Peer Insight. She’ll also discuss how she reframes clients’ problematic expectations into something that she can design with, as well as her workarounds for common points of struggle. Tune in to learn about all of this and much more! Learn More About Today’s Guest Natalie Foley on LinkedIn Natalie Foley on Twitter Natalie Foley at Peer Insight Peer Insight Peer Insight on Twitter In This Episode [00:33] — Dawan introduces today’s guest, Natalie Foley.[01:21] — Natalie takes a moment to talk about her work at Peer Insight in both of her roles there, and offers a brief description of what the company does.[03:48] — We hear more about the people piece of what Natalie does, and she explains that she’s lucky in terms of the people she works alongside.[06:37] — How did Natalie arrive where she is at Peer Insight? She shares both the high-level practical answer as well as the emotional answer.[11:09] — Natalie digs into how she has seen the types of problems or challenges that she’s seeing evolve over the last couple of years.[14:08] — When people come to work with Natalie, what are they initially presenting as the outcomes they’re seeking, and how does that change during the interaction?[17:28] — Natalie talks about reframing clients’ expectations when necessary.[21:02] — There’s an easy way and a hard way to get a client to move through the pain of changing the way they’re used to thinking, Natalie explains.[24:18] — Natalie digs deeper into the basics of the design process that she uses.[29:36] — We hear about the dynamics involved for Natalie in managing both her internal team and the client team.[32:59] — How does Natalie coach leaders in the kind of decision-making that she has been talking about?[37:08] — Natalie talks about the areas where she typically sees points of struggle, as well as her workarounds.[43:17] — We learn more about the dynamic involved with the peer insight side of things.[47:28] — On the technology front, what are some of the challenges and benefits in working with a remote or distributed client?[49:34] — Dawan asks Natalie what she would say to someone who is new to the field or wants to get into the design thinking space.[51:44] — What are some of Natalie’s favorite books in terms of design thinking?[55:53] — Natalie shares her advice for someone who is a CEO or running a business who is interested in making an investment in design thinking for their company.[59:04] — Where can people learn more about Natalie, her work, and Peer Insight? Links and Resources Jeanne Liedtka Jeanne Liedtka on Design Thinking 101 Designing for Growth: A Design Thinking Tool Kit for Managers by Jeanne Liedtka and Tim Ogilvie Value Proposition Design: How to Create Products and Services Customers Want (Strategyzer) by Alexander Osterwalder, Yves Pigneur, Gregory Bernarda, and Alan Smith

I’m joined by Fred Leichter, the Founding Director of the Rick and Susan Sontag Center for Collaborative Creativity. We’ll talk about what Fred learned and led design during his 25-year career at Fidelity Investments, how he’s applying that experience at Claremont Colleges, and the promise and potential of human-centered design and design thinking in undergraduate education. In 1996, Fred worked on designing Fidelity’s first website, which was a huge breakthrough in the industry. He was in the right place at the right time as the industry transformed, so he was able to see a major paradigm shift happening, and observed that design was at the center of it. In 2006, Fred discovered design thinking. From there, he took on a broader role as the chief experience officer at Fidelity, and used design thinking as the essence of what he did. In a large organization, Fred explains, the natural organization is to use the existing silos within the business. This looks something like passing something from market research to product development to detailed design to specifications to technology to legal and compliance, and finally to production. As a result, it took a fair amount of work to get into a position to prototype products and services, and use manual workarounds before building the technology. Fred will discuss how he approached building out the Hive, which started with trying to engage students at a progression of levels. At the first level, he ensured there was an invitation to make something with a variety of crafting materials. The next level up involved workshops around design thinking, empathetic listening, or making friends with everyone. At the next level, they started offering pop-up classes usually taught by faculty. Finally, they offer semester-long courses for credit. Tune in to hear Fred talk about resisting the urge to rush to a solution by putting alternatives in front of the customer, why we should look at a project expecting to be wrong instead of expecting to be right, the convening that he hosted, the ways in which colleges and universities can be more rigid than large organizations, and much more. Learn More About Today’s Guest The Rick and Susan Sontag Center for Collaborative Creativity Fred Leichter at Harvey Mudd College Fred Leichter on LinkedIn The Hive at the Claremont Colleges on Facebook hive_5c on Instagram In This Episode [01:10] — Fred talks about how he arrived at “the Hive,” or the Rick and Susan Sontag Center for Collaborative Creativity at the Claremont Colleges. He takes a moment to describe the schools and points out how highly ranked they are.[07:01] — What were some of the experience that helped Fred see and feel his love for teaching and design thinking?[09:43] — When Fred did the first design on Fidelity’s website, he didn’t call himself a designer, but he realized that he was interested in the topic and trained himself as a designer.[12:02] — Fred studied the unmet needs of people with aging parents and issues around intergenerational finance when he was at d.school.[15:02] — At the point Fred was describing, was he still using design workshops to help people internally understand and explore the concept?[16:35] — We hear about how Fred set up and built design teams.[18:23] — What tips would Fred offer to someone facing a similar challenge in a large organization?[21:50] — Fred talks about ways to resist the urge to rush to the solution. He also discusses whether he shifted the way people were rewarded organizationally for failing, finding things, and testing things.[24:29] — We learn about Fred’s move to the Hive, and why he felt like he would be crazy not to take the opportunity.[28:28] — Fred discusses his approach in building out the Hive, and the various levels offered to the students.[33:17] — Dawan invites Fred to talk about the convening that Dawan attended and Fred hosted.[36:44] — We hear two of the largest impacts that Dawan got from the convening that he and Fred have been discussing.[40:53] — Fred talks about how he sees roles in directing or leading design thinking evolving or changing over time.[44:06] — What are some of the resources for someone, particularly a student, interested in getting into design thinking?[46:19] — One of the best resources that Fred gives to students is a blank notebook and a pen.[47:17] — Where can people find out more about Fred and the Hive? Links and Resources Stanford d.school Fidelity Labs Doreen Lorenzo Frog Design Creative Confidence: Unleashing the Creative Potential Within Us All by Tom Kelley and David Kelley Steal Like an Artist: 10 Things Nobody Told You About Being Creative by Austin Kleon The Opposable Mind: How Successful Leaders Win Through Integrative Thinking by Roger L. Martin Protobot IDEO.org

The remarkable Jean-Louis Racine, head of the World Bank’s infoDev Climate Technology Program, joins me today to discuss how he came to apply design thinking in his work, doing design thinking in large organizations, leading design teams, and stakeholder-centered design. Before working at the World Bank, Jean-Louis earned a Ph.D. in robotics engineering and worked as an engineer. This allows him to bring a depth of experience to applying and thinking about design thinking. As you’ll hear in our conversation, one of the things that Jean-Louis appreciates most about design thinking is that it forces you to be “solution-agnostic,” as he puts it, and encourages redefining the problem into something that doesn’t include the solution. As an example, he shares a story of how this process brought him to the surprising solution of needing many entrepreneurs to fail faster. Many large organizations aren’t very risk-tolerant, but design thinking de-risks a project because it’s about testing hypotheses. Its rigor and evidence-based principles make it easier to create something that will actually work. Jean-Louis points out that framing the value of design thinking in these terms can be more successful for large organizations than talking about creativity, for example. Jean-Louis points out the need for trust in learning what the design thinking cycle is and how it works. It’s something that requires someone to experience it, he explains, which makes things tricky when people aren’t inclined to trust you through the process. The solution when people don’t embrace the new technique from the beginning is to simply struggle through it. We’ll also talk about techniques to get people to give feedback without as many ego issues, the difference between critique and criticism, what it means to design for stakeholders, some fantastic books and resources that will be useful for listeners interested in the various subjects we cover in this discussion, and much more. I hope you’ll enjoy this conversation as much as I did! In This Episode [01:34] — Jean-Louis starts off the conversation by telling listeners a bit about himself and his background. He also addresses how he came into design thinking and what the early journey was like for him.[04:36] — We hear the story of the first time that Jean-Louis applied design thinking in his work at the World Bank.[07:41] — When you don’t really know what you’re doing, you make mistakes, Jean-Louis points out. That’s how you learn.[08:22] — What was one of Jean-Louis’ mistakes that turned out to be a useful learning experiences?[12:01] — Jean-Louis talks about what has helped him with shaping design thinking to individual contexts.[13:07] — Jean-Louis digs into how things have changed over time in terms of the way organizations or colleagues have responded.[17:56] — We hear more about the ClimateLaunchpad program and how design thinking was applied there.[21:51] — Jean-Louis describes how the teams in the ClimateLaunchpad are brought into an understanding of design thinking to the point that they can apply it to their teams and on their projects.[25:22] — Last year, Jean-Louis was in Kenya running a small design workshop. He shares a story of an event that happened there with a team of people familiar with his design thinking methods.[28:51] — Dawan points out that he and Jean-Louis both face the issue of dealing with people in their work who aren’t confident in the design thinking process.[34:11] — Criticism is difficult to unlearn, Jean-Louis points out, and critique is more difficult to give than criticism.[36:33] — How has Jean-Louis found that templates function in the work that he has done? He answers, then talks about where he sees things going in the next several years as he applies design thinking at the World Bank.[43:26] — How does designing for the network of stakeholders change the design process[45:58] — Jean-Louis talks about whether there are any other open questions that are interesting for him right now.[47:48] — We hear about some resources that Jean-Louis has found useful, and that listeners may find useful as well.[50:25] — Where can interested listeners learn more about Jean-Louis or his work? Links and Resources Jean-Louis Racine infoDev Climate Technology Program ClimateLaunchpad Jeanne Liedtka Gamestorming: A Playbook for Innovators, Rulebreakers, and Changemakers by Dave Gray, Sunni Brown, and James Macanufo Designing for Growth: A Design Thinking Tool Kit for Managers by Jeanne Liedtka and Tim Ogilvie Product Design and Development by Karl Ulrich and Steven Eppinger Next Billion