Design Thinking 101

Stephanie Wade, my guest today, leads the Innovation Teams program at Bloomberg Philanthropies. She helps cities around the world develop and implement innovative approaches by using design, data analytics, and behavioral economics to deeply understand complex problems. She has applied design thinking at the federal, state, and local levels. Stephanie is an artist in multiple mediums. She got to where she is as many designers do: via a meandering and non-traditional path. Now, she’s at a point where she sees a clear thread running through all the work that she’s done to lead her to exactly where she is now. She believes that strong designers put their whole selves into their work, and that’s what makes them good in so many ways As a “design activist,” Stephanie believes in the power of design to be transformative. As a result, she explains, she’s also protective of design, thanks to having seen the pitfalls and consequences of doing design wrong. If you screw up design at an organization, the people there who aren’t interested in change will look for ways to fault this new thing, meaning you don’t have a lot of leeway to keep trying if you don’t do well from the beginning. As a first step toward succeeding rather than messing up, it’s important to have a strong team. Stephanie believes that a good team should have diverse people from different backgrounds, even beyond design. At least one of the people on the ideal team should come from inside of the organization in question. In our conversation, Stephanie will also dig into what she sees as the traits of an effective team leader in the field. Other topics we focus on in today’s episode include training design teams for projects, building design thinking capacity inside organizations, and some of the unique leadership challenges that both of these activities present. Stephanie will also talk about where she sees her work heading in the future, lessons and insights that she’s learned during her time in design, and much more. Learn More About Today’s Guest Stephanie Wade on LinkedIn Stephanie Wade on Twitter In This Episode [02:03] — Stephanie starts things off by talking about her trajectory, how she got started and learned, and what’s been fueling her passion.[12:46] — What are some of the lessons that Stephanie has picked up along the way as she has worked in capacity-building?[15:32] — We hear about some of the characteristics of what it looks like when capacity-building and design is done well.[18:22] — Stephanie talks more about the kind of team she would like to see to really make things work.[21:21] — What are some of the characteristics of a more mature successful team?[23:43] — Stephanie talks about some of the challenges that she has faced in leading design teams in various contexts.[27:45] — We hear more about the work that Stephanie is doing now, and how the various teams at Innovation Teams come together.[33:32] — What are some of the things that are consistent across the different teams that Stephanie directs?[36:32] — Stephanie talks about how she’s helping people get their heads around combining design thinking and system-level thinking.[38:33] — Where does Stephanie see the work that she’s doing now heading in the future?[43:48] — We hear about whether there are areas in which Stephanie would welcome ideas or support.[45:31] — Are there any other resources that Stephanie has found particularly useful?[47:38] — Is there anything else that Stephanie has on her mind or wants to talk about? Links and Resources Innovation Teams Bloomberg Philanthropies Michael Bloomberg Exposing the Magic of Design by Jon Kolko Jeanne Liedtka’s books Observatory of Public Sector Innovation Nesta

Tune into today’s episode to hear my conversation with my friend and colleague Karen Hold, an innovation strategist who helps individuals and organizations build cultures of creativity and collaboration using the language of design thinking. Our conversation today will cover her path from brand management at Procter & Gamble into design thinking, her leadership at Summer of Design and Design Thinking DC, how she works with individuals and teams as they learn and practice design thinking, and much more. Karen is the daughter of a lawyer, and points out that she grew up in a home that used auditory language to communicate. She married into a family of visual communicators, and discovered that she’s more of a visual communicator than an auditory communicator. This opened up a learning journey for her about how people communicate, and how some learners can be lost in conversations because they don’t communicate in the language that is being used. Design thinking gave Karen a framework to find an intersection where various learning styles can be optimized. She became a voracious reader on the subject, digging into books such as Designing for Growth and The Experience Economy. She has since focused her career on equipping others with the tools to do this kind of work using alternate communication styles. In our conversation, Karen digs into the process of leading people through their first encounters with design thinking. She points out that communication and helping people to organize their thoughts clearly is a big part of the process, and explores the importance of collaboration and the role of a leader in helping to develop it. Tune in to hear more about all of these topics, as well as the warning signs of a struggling team (and some strategies for getting them back on track), the trend toward virtual collaboration with teams, the relationship between community partners and the design teams at Design Thinking DC, the role of peer coaches, and other fascinating and valuable topics. Learn More About Today’s Guest Karen Hold at the Design GymKaren Hold on LinkedIn @KarenHold on Twitter dckarenhold@gmail.com In This Episode [01:42] — We hear about Karen’s learning journey, and how design thinking has been involved in her career.[07:31] — What were some of Karen’s aha moments in the early reading and learning that she did?[09:27] — Karen talks about what Design Thinking DC is, and what she’s doing there.[12:42] — Dawan takes a moment to unpack some of what Karen has been saying about design leadership. Karen then talks more about leading people and teams through their first encounter with design thinking.[16:36] — We hear about warning signs for team dysfunctions, and ways that Karen has helped teams to get back on track.[20:39] — Karen talks about virtual collaboration, and what you lose when you sacrifice the face-to-face experience.[23:37] — We hear about how Karen has evolved her practice of aligning people’s expectations with what’s possible in Summer of Design.[26:26] — What are some of the things that Karen has done to keep the relationship with community partners healthy?[31:34] — Karen goes into more depth about what’s attractive about Summer of Design to sponsors and partners.[34:56] — We learn more about Karen’s work for her own clients, which she explains is the same as what she offers through DT:DC.[38:04] — What are some simplifications that Karen has done to ease the introduction to design thinking?[41:21] — Karen talks about her workarounds when she encounters resistance with students or clients.[45:20] — How can peers become peer coaches?[46:29] — We hear about patterns that Karen has seen across her work that give insights into where design thinking is headed.[50:36] — Are there any big questions that Karen is wrestling with, or challenges or ideas she wants to share with the community of listeners?[53:18] — Karen recommends that people follow her on Twitter, or email her at dckarenhold@gmail.com. Links and Resources Summer of Design Design Thinking DC Designing for Growth by Jeanne Liedtka The Experience Economy by B. Joseph Pine and James H. Gilmore The Academy for Innovation and Entrepreneurship at the University of Maryland

I’m joined by Martin Dominguez Ball, a graphic designer who teaches design thinking at Fordham University. He’s also the cofounder at WOMB Service Design Lab. We’ll talk about what works for students in the design thinking classroom, how Martin has helped people wrestle through working visually, and the connections between design thinking, art, and making, as a teacher and practitioner. Martin, who hails from Uruguay, had a long path into design thinking. As an entrepreneur, he owned a business for over a decade, and mentions that he applied design thinking to this business without really knowing what it was. His passion, though, was being an artist. He eventually decided to close the company and pursue the things important to him: education and art. Tune in to the episode to learn how this process evolved into him teaching his design thinking course. In the process of getting his degrees, Martin developed a love for academia. Design thinking gave a framework to what he had been doing intuitively, and he fell in love with the methodology and method. You’ll hear him explain how this methodology gave him a different perspective on business and allowed him to get ahead of the curve by listening to what people were saying. Martin explains that he has observed that people often have strong assumptions of what the problem is, and getting rid of those assumptions can be a challenge and a point of frustration. He finds that teaching design thinking involves guiding students to think beyond the first or fastest idea or solution, and bringing them back to the drawing board over and over. Tune in to hear more about all these topics, as well as the excitement of seeing students understand the reason for certain methodologies, why design thinking isn’t the ideal answer for every problem that comes up, the value in prototyping (even if students are skeptical at the beginning), and the powerful effect that Martin’s eclectic background has on his approach to teaching design thinking. Learn More About Today’s Guest Martin Dominguez Ball Martin Dominguez Ball on LinkedIn Martin Dominguez Ball on Facebook Martin Dominguez on Behance In This Episode [01:17] — Martin introduces himself, and talks about his background and pathway to where he is now in design.[03:58] — We hear more about Martin’s experience of falling in love with design thinking.[07:15] — How has Martin’s approach and understanding evolved since the first moment of connection with design thinking? Martin answers, and talks about where people struggle with problem-finding.[11:14] — Martin talks about how people react to coming back to the original or needing to reassess their original assumptions.[14:24] — We hear about students’ “ah-hah” moments that Martin has seen, and feedback that students have given on how the class has changed things for them.[17:16] — How did Martin’s design thinking course come about? He answers, then elaborates on his “where does it fit?” question.[20:10] — Martin talks about whether the conflict between service-dominant logic and goods-dominant logic is involved in the conflict that he has just described.[23:23] — We hear about some things that have helped Martin to teach and lead people through a design process, and how the rest of the faculty has reacted to his course.[25:22] — Martin provides more information about the design lab that he and his wife run.[28:15] — What would Martin’s advice be to an entrepreneur who is interested in developing a new service or improving an existing service?[30:11] — We hear about where Martin sees design thinking going in the next few years.[33:38] — Dawan shares some of his own thoughts about explaining how design thinking works as a way of moving from problem-situation to solution-situation.[36:42] — Martin talks about the value of prototyping.[39:13] — We hear more about how Martin helps people work more visually and see the value in doing so.[43:37] — What are Martin’s thoughts on how his mix of influences affects the way he approaches design thinking?[46:54] — Martin shares some resources that he has found particularly useful.[49:04] — Martin points out that he is constantly learning from his students, and relates this to his experience teaching guitar.[51:39] — Where can people learn more about Martin, his work, and his practice? Links and Resources Service Design Network Touchpoint Service Design in the Business Curriculum: Dispatches From the Field by Joan Ball, PhD and Martin Dominguez (Touchpoint article) IDEO.org IBM Design Thinking Field Guide

Tune into this episode for a fascinating conversation with Aaron Faucher, a product designer focused on design ethics and augmented reality. You’ll hear about lessons from his path into design for augmented reality and virtual reality with clients such as High Fidelity, Alpha Computing, and Designation Labs. We’ll also dig into how being a Master’s student at the Human-Computer Interaction Institute at Carnegie Mellon University builds on that experience, and where he sees his design practice going as he explores the intersection of UX design and emerging technologies. As Aaron shares, he’s early in his design career, and has been working professionally in the field for a bit over two years. His first exposure to design thinking was when he was an undergrad, when his focus was on social impact. He became obsessed with the question of where the logical end point of emerging technologies is, and started looking at technology as a social issue. Since then, Aaron has been trying to situate himself in the design world around augmented reality. At one point, Aaron learned about the concept of affordance, and the idea that we live in a state of action-potential in a digital world. This felt groundbreaking to him and helped him to rationalize the hyper-connected state that many people feel themselves in. He also explores the power of getting outside of the box of his own ideas. Aaron moved to the San Francisco Bay Area in August 2016 to try to find a job there, since that’s where a lot of AR and VR developments are happening. He worked on hustling and networking there, and describes the experience as a “trial by fire” that put him in his place as a designer. The process led to a couple of freelance opportunities. One thing led to another, and he has been able to work on some VR creation tools. Tune in to learn more about all these topics, as well as where Aaron sees his design career going in the future, questions that he wrestles with, the advice he would give to an undergraduate who is interested in his field, what resources he recommends to people who want to learn more, and much more! Learn More About Today’s Guest Aaron Faucher Aaron Faucher on Medium aaron.faucher@gmail.com Aaron Faucher on LinkedIn In This Episode [02:01] — We hear a bit about Aaron’s background and what brought him to where he is now.[05:16] — When Aaron made a connection between his design thinking experience and UI/UX, what in particular helped him recognize the connection?[06:39] — Aaron talks about how he has built the skills and connections to make the leap into his design career.[08:52] — Was there a moment or experience when Aaron’s thinking about design changed?[11:12] — We learn more about Aaron’s road into designing for AR and VR.[15:10] — Aaron talks about some opportunities and projects that came from his networking in the San Francisco Bay Area.[17:03] — What are some of the challenges and workarounds that Aaron faced in the projects he has been talking about?[20:14] — We hear more about Aaron’s thoughts on healthy versus unhealthy interactions.[23:43] — Where does Aaron think that things will go from here for him as a designer? What are some of the questions he’s wrestling with on his design journey?[27:03] — Aaron shares the recommendations he would give to an undergraduate who wants to enter into design in the AR/VR space.[29:59] — Are there any online references or books that have been exceptionally helpful in Aaron’s journey so far? Links and Resources Human-Computer Interaction Institute at Carnegie Mellon University HYPER-REALITY on Vimeo Unity Tutorials Kadenze Calm Technology by Amber Case Modern Medicine by Jonathan Harris

I’m joined by Eugene Korsunskiy. Eugene is a design thinking consultant and the Senior Coordinator of Design Initiatives at the University of Vermont. Both there and at Stanford, Eugene has taught classes like “Design Thinking” and “Designing Your Life.” In our conversation today, we’ll talk about how and why he became a designer, his insights from teaching “Designing Your Life” to Stanford students, and aspects of creating good design thinking learning experiences and design teams. When he was in college, Eugene thought he wanted to be an architect. As he studied architecture and interned in the field, he learned that it’s a lot more about fire codes and occupancy permits than he had hoped, and his romantic notions of the field faded away. He still knew, though, that he wanted to be in an occupation that involved creating something for people while using both halves of his brain. Eventually, design replaced architecture, and Eugene went to grad school for design instead. The most interesting part of a designer’s job, Eugene points out in an interesting case study he shares today, isn’t necessarily finding the information you were looking for; instead, it can be finding a weird discrepancy in the human condition. In another example, he explores the effect that a course on design thinking has on undergraduate students’ beliefs, especially the common belief that one’s major absolutely determines one’s career. Eugene and I will cover a wide range of other specific topics, including concerns that students (and parents) may have about and during his courses, how to “sneak up on your future” so your future doesn’t sneak up on you, what Eugene has gotten out of teaching his classes, the traits that makes the best leaders for design projects, and much more. Learn More About Today’s Guest Eugene Korsunskiy Eugene Korsunskiy on LinkedIn In This Episode [01:26] — We hear a bit about Eugene’s background and how he arrived where he is now.[05:45] — What were some of the early experiences in Eugene’s program that helped him make the conceptual shift from the solution side to the side of finding and solving problems for humans?[09:25] — Eugene shares his early experiences with design in his life.[13:36] — How did Eugene see students change from the beginning to the end of the course he has been talking about?[18:02] — Eugene talks about how he would convince a skeptical parent of a student that a course on design thinking is a valuable activity.[19:19] — What are some patterns where students struggle with Eugene’s courses?[22:19] — Students often have a hard time shifting away from the idea that there is one correct path, Eugene points out.[24:41] — What are the experiences and exercises that students go through to understand the key practices of designing your life?[29:58] — Eugene talks about how he would help a student who’s struggling with the multiple possible pathways by focusing on only one.[31:33] — What has teaching the class done for Eugene, and how has it affected him?[33:58] — We learn about a class that Eugene has been teaching for the last several months.[40:47] — Eugene talks more about design leadership, and the distinct set of skills, experiences, and methods involved in that.[48:23] — What if Eugene’s brief was to create an experience where everyone who goes through it emerges with the basics of design leadership?[50:59] — Eugene shares what’s going on with him and where he’s headed, including his upcoming plans to teach at Dartmouth.[53:21] — Where can people find out more about Eugene and his work? Links and Resources Design Thinking (course at the University of Vermont) Designing Your Life (course at Stanford) Bill Burnett Dave Evans Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans

I’m happy to announce that today’s guest is Nathan Ritter, a design researcher at IA Collaborative. We’ll talk about how his path to being a third-generation mechanical engineer turned into a design research career. We’ll also talk about transforming clients into design evangelists, before closing with a project that Nathan and his colleagues are working on to bring a design icon back to life. As you may have guessed, Nathan came to design from an engineering perspective. Going through a project to assist a woman with rheumatoid arthritis helped Nathan discover that, for him, human-centered design is more interesting than doing mechanical analysis on a computer screen. He changed his major, and continued his studies through a masters program. He points out that he’s not departing from the work of his forefathers so much as emphasizing a different part of the same process. In our conversation, you’ll hear about a time that Nathan was in grad school. He, along with a team of all men, were working on a project about feminine care products. He points out that having all men on the team was surprisingly not entirely a bad thing; it eliminated the often-present risk of designing for yourself. He’ll also talk about other challenges he’s faced, including the transition from academic project work to client services. If you’re curious about the basic skills that go into Nathan’s work, you’ll love this episode, in which he digs into some of the surprising skills he uses every day. He finds himself turning into a human thesaurus, for example, and comes back to writing (and verbal communication more broadly) over and over. He also emphasizes the importance of empathy, and the associated abilities to listen closely, reinterpret, and respond to what participants tell him. Nathan will also talk listeners through his multifaceted new client education process, the importance of having people understand who their customers are and what their customers are doing, how he moves from exploratory research into evaluative research, and more. Excitingly, you’ll also hear about his fascinating project to bring the incredible Humanscale tool back to life. Learn More About Today’s Guest Nathan Ritter Reissue of Humanscale on Kickstarter @nathanritter on Twitter In This Episode [01:40] — What brought Nathan to design, and how did his journey take place?[04:15] — We hear about how Nathan’s family of engineers took his career change from engineering into design.[07:25] — Nathan talks about a time when he was pulled into a leadership role during an opportunity for design research in grad school.[09:48] — What other kinds of leadership challenges has Nathan faced?[13:05] — We learn more about where Nathan usually starts with new client education and the multifaceted approach that he takes.[17:22] — How does Nathan know when the transformation that he has been talking about has occurred in someone? And how does he keep people fired up and on board, even though projects can take a while?[20:13] — Nathan takes a moment to explain the difference between two terms he has been using: “exploratory” and “evaluative.”[23:06] — We hear about how the relationship with a client can evolve, as well as some of the constraints and why it’s so important to engage the client in the design process.[24:56] — As a practitioner, what are some of the basic skills that Nathan uses on a day-to-day or regular basis?[27:42] — Nathan describes what it feels like when the design team (on his side) is humming along and functioning well.[30:16] — Dawan pivots into another topic: Humanscale. Nathan describes what this fascinating tool is, both in terms of its historic value and its efficacy as a tool.[35:45] — The problem with Humanscale is that it’s incredibly hard to find a set, and copies have sold on eBay for over $1,000 each, Nathan explains. He then reveals his solution: recreating the set thanks to funding from Kickstarter.[37:27] — Nathan talks about what sparked all of this for him.[42:52] — Where can people go to learn more about Nathan and his work? Links and Resources Humanscale IA Collaborative Henry Dreyfuss Associates

I’m excited to speak with Rebecca Horton, a designer, coach, and long-time colleague and friend. In our conversation, we’ll talk about how to coach and lead design teams, some design thinking methods she has found valuable, and how design thinking and coaching converge. Rebecca has always been interested in design, but believed as she grew up that you had to pick a discipline within design (such as being an interior designer, graphic designer, or fashion designer). In her early teenage years, she was fascinated by fashion design, and was captivated by runway shows on TV. She later went to college for political science and public policy because it was practical and pragmatic, and picking a specific design discipline didn’t appeal to her. After college, she discovered the design thinking field, which had the language to explain what she had been craving, and doesn’t force you to choose between disciplines. She returned to school, started her own practice, and worked in the corporate design world. In our conversation, Rebecca will dig into a specific example of an instance in which things didn’t go according to plan, which ended up being exactly the turning point that made her work so successful. She’ll also explain how she was able to maneuver and adjust to create this positive outcome from unexpected circumstances, and explore the controversy surrounding customer personas. As you listen, you’ll also hear powerful advice that you can apply to your own work and methods. For example, Rebecca advises clients to “welcome the stranger,” meaning that instead of telling someone unexpected to leave, invite them in and use the opportunity to understand why they might be there. Tune in to hear more about all of this, as well as Rebecca’s thoughts on blueprints, customer journey maps, and much more. Learn More About Today’s Guest Rebecca Horton Rebecca Horton on LinkedIn In This Episode [01:11] — Rebecca digs into how she got into design, what her early training was like, and how she got to where she is now.[03:27] — What have been some of the challenges or “aha!” moments that Rebecca has faced along her path so far?[07:59] — Rebecca talks about what ended up happening in the situation she has been describing, in which things didn’t end up going according to plan.[11:22] — What ended up happening as a result of what Rebecca has described is that the process became much more collaborative, she explains.[15:25] — We hear about the experiences that helped Rebecca get to a point where she was able to do the maneuvering, adjusting, and listening she has been describing?[16:48] — In co-creating with a student team or client team, what are some of the things that help them get past the initial hurdles with working with the design process?[18:33] — How would Rebecca describe how she approaches pulling together a set of tools that leads to solutions that stick or results that last in her work?[24:23] — Rebecca talks about some of the adaptations she’s had to make to using tools she learned as a student as she brings them into the world.[27:38] — We learn about Rebecca’s thoughts on customer personas.[30:58] — How would Rebecca differentiate her in-house experiences in using those tools from the experiences she’s had in her own consultancy?[34:21] — Rebecca discusses the resources and suggestions that she gives people who want to learn more about design thinking or how to bring it into their work.[37:40] — What are a couple of books that Rebecca would recommend? Her suggestions include The Design of Business, Moments of Impact, and The Power of TED*.[40:19] — Rebecca talks about how her experiences as a designer influence her as a coach.[42:20] — Where is Rebecca headed on her design journey?[44:58] — Rebecca talks about where people can find her to learn more about her and what she does. Links and Resources @southernindie on Twitter rebecca@thetrestles.com (Rebecca Horton) IDEO Service Design Global Conference Trestles The Design of Business by Roger Martin Moments of Impact by Chris Ertel and Lisa Kay Solomon The Power of TED* by David Emerald

Artemio “Arty” Rivera, a former designer at 3Pillar Global and current UX Lead at Capital One as well as a leader at Design Thinking DC, joins me today to talk about the learning experiences that grew his career, his insights from applying design thinking, and much more. When Arty was a child, he started sketching spaceships, aliens, and dresses. Later, as a teenager in 10th grade, he did a personal project in which he learned to make a website and got his first serious taste of technological design. In college at Stanford, he stumbled into the product design program at the d.school. Upon learning that he could do engineering and sketching in on major, he switched to studying product design. After graduation, he found a job in DC working as a UX designer. In our conversation, you’ll learn about how the beginning of his career went, and some of the early challenges and achievements he experienced. His first lesson, he explains, is how hard it is to convince an organization that designers and developers need to meet with the people they’re creating software for. Arty reveals in our conversation that if he could go back in time and give his younger self advice, it would be simply to “be more flexible.” When he first joined 3Pillar Global, he had a fixed idea of what design thinking should look like. Over time, he came to understand that it’s important to be conscious of how you apply the best practices to adapt to the client’s priorities and needs. We’ll spend some time chatting about the incredible Meetup group Design Thinking DC (or DT:DC) and the Summer of Design, which was created by DT:DC members. Arty will also share his thoughts on key topics such as how to talk to community partners about getting involved with a design project, and what he would tell an organization hiring a designer or design firm for the first time. Tune in to learn all about this, and much more! Learn More About Today’s Guest Artemio Rivera on LinkedIn @arty on Twitter In This Episode [01:20] — Arty starts off the conversation by talking a bit about his background and his path to where he is now.[08:08] — Coming from his perspective, what were some of the early challenges that Arty had to wrestle with in his career?[10:21] — We hear about Camellia George, a fantastic manager who Arty had early in his career.[13:22] — Arty talks about how he grew as a designer from the point he has been describing.[16:00] — How did Arty see the shift in the perceived value of design? He answers, then talks about where he is now.[21:14] — Arty discusses the differences between the way he approaches design now and the way he did earlier in his career.[26:50] — We hear Arty’s thoughts on how to get the needed level of trust and access to sensitive conversations.[32:00] — What message would Arty send to his younger self in terms of what he should expect in terms of applying design, if he was able to?[34:23] — Arty goes into more depth about what Design Thinking DC is. He and Dawan then chat about how they met.[40:55] — We learn about the Summer of Design, and how it came to be.[45:53] — What are some of the key things that Arty would tell someone to make sure they communicate to get a community partner to be involved with a design project?[48:25] — Arty talks about some of the impact that the Summer of Design teams have had in working with community partners.[51:46] — Dawan points out that this is a volunteer activity by the DT:DC leadership.[53:43] — How has Arty seen non-designers or people who are new to design get to the next level?[56:17] — If there were one message that Arty could communicate to any organization hiring a designer for the first time, what would it be?[60:26] — Arty digs deeper into the starting point if you’re already looking at transforming your organization.[63:18] — Where can people find out more about Arty and his work? He talks about his work at 3Pillar, as well as introducing his other project, ConSpot. Links and Resources 3Pillar Global Capital One d.school Camellia George Design Thinking DC Stephanie Rowe Summer of Design Jenn Gustetic Nathan Ritter Design & Thinking documentary ConSpot

Today’s guest is the remarkable Indi Young, author of Mental Models and Practical Empathy. Indi was a founder at Adaptive Path, and is one of the design field’s leading visionaries on how we develop an understanding of what people are trying to accomplish, and how to represent it in ways that support innovation. Indi’s background is in computer science, in which she has a degree from Cal Poly. In our conversation, she explains how her time there contributed to her learn-by-doing philosophy, as well as her interest in understanding what goes through people’s minds. She’ll also dig into what it means to research problem space, what practical empathy is and how to use it, and how to develop and maintain an understanding of how people think as an ongoing basis for Indi is focused on the same thing she’s been focused on all her life, but with a changing vocabulary around it: understanding the problem space. As you’ll hear, she tries to pull the problem space further and further away from the solution space to create a broader understanding. Problem-space research, as she points out, is evergreen. By splitting it off from being solution-focused, Indi hopes to bring attention to what people are actually doing. In our conversation, you’ll also hear about the ways in which empathy is more complex than sympathy or compassion. Indi compares the various aspects of empathy to a skilled worker with tools rolled up in a bundle. When the worker needs to use a tool, he or she unrolls the bundle and pulls out exactly the right tool from its individual pocket. This, Indi points out, is similar to empathy, which you use differently in different situations. Indi also digs deeply into the important ways in which empathy is different from emotional contagion, which many people don’t realize is a separate concept. She shares how important it is to support someone as part of empathy, rather than simply to feel what another person is feeling. Tune in to learn more about all of this and much more! Learn More About Today’s Guest Indi Young @indiyoung on Twitter Indi Young on LinkedIn Adaptive Path @AdaptivePath on Twitter Indi’s newsletter sign up In This Episode [01:38] — We learn more about what Indi is doing now, as well as why she focuses on the problem space instead of the solution space.[06:02] — Indi shares some of her background and talks about how it has influenced her.[09:10] — Indi talks about making what other people call “personas,” but which she calls “behavioral audience segments” or “thinking styles.”[11:13] — The book Mental Models has been really important to Dawan, he reveals. We then hear about how Indi’s ideas have developed between that book and her newer one, Practical Empathy.[15:35] — A lot of people are conflating emotional contagion with emotional empathy, Indi points out, and clarifies the difference.[19:59] — We hear more about the support piece of emotional empathy.[23:36] — Indi talks about her listening sessions (which she used to call “interviews”), and why she changed the vocabulary.[27:17] — Not judging people can be difficult on the airline side, Indi explains, and talks about how one can treat others with more empathy.[32:58] — Indi points out a phenomenon that when you’re in a position of authority, the person you’re talking to will try to please you, impress you, or tell you what you want to hear.[35:00] — Indi talks more about behavioral audience segments.[40:56] — The method that Indi has been discussing also emphasizes context. She offers a couple of examples of the relevance of context.[44:07] — How do characters, in the sense that Indi has been describing, float into the separation between the problem space and the solution space?[46:19] — Has Indi changed the way she thinks about multi-functional teams from a design standpoint?[48:24] — We hear about Indi brings people into a unique collaborative moment or space.[52:36] — What are some of the challenges that Indi is facing now, whether exciting or frustrating?[55:52] — Indi shares some of the things that have helped her get her clients comfortable with the kinds of investments needed to do the work she has been describing.[62:41] — Where can people find out more about Indi and her work? In her answer, she talks about how to get a discount on her books. Links and Resources Mental Models by Indi Young Practical Empathy by Indi Young Practical Empathy audiobook by Indi Young Describing Personas by Indi Young (Medium article) Liminal Thinking by Dave Gray Against Empathy by Paul Bloom Up (2009 film) Brené Brown on Empathy Inside Out (2015 film) “Inadvertent Algorithmic Cruelty” by Eric Meyer Rosenfeld Media

Natalie Foley joins me to talk about her design thinking and learning journey, and how she became the VP and COO at Peer Insight. We’ll also talk about the design process, some of the key methods that drive her work, and a pathway that organizations can use when developing their own internal design thinking capacity. Natalie talks in this conversation about what to do when you work with people who are user-centered and able to handle the ambiguity involved in design thinking. Her job as COO, she explains, is to give a guardrail or enough structure to enable people to be successful, without giving so much direction and structure as to stifle the process. She also emphasizes the value of small teams. You’ll hear that Natalie’s emotional journey to where she is now involved coming out of her undergrad experience feeling pretty smart and thinking that with every year of experience, she would get smarter. Stumbling on design thinking opened her eyes to a new perspective: she doesn’t have to be right, because her customers or the marketplace will tell her if she isn’t. Instead, the more important angle is to know how to run a good experiment. The design process that Natalie uses typically involves four questions. The first is “what is?” The second question, or the ideation portion, is “what if?” This second part is anchored on the first question. After this brainstorming portion, the third question is “what wows?” This involves asking people what they think about some of the ideas that came out of the brainstorming process. The final question is “what works?” Our conversation will also cover what Natalie’s clients initially present as their desired outcomes, and how that changes during the course of their interaction with Natalie and Peer Insight. She’ll also discuss how she reframes clients’ problematic expectations into something that she can design with, as well as her workarounds for common points of struggle. Tune in to learn about all of this and much more! Learn More About Today’s Guest Natalie Foley on LinkedIn Natalie Foley on Twitter Natalie Foley at Peer Insight Peer Insight Peer Insight on Twitter In This Episode [00:33] — Dawan introduces today’s guest, Natalie Foley.[01:21] — Natalie takes a moment to talk about her work at Peer Insight in both of her roles there, and offers a brief description of what the company does.[03:48] — We hear more about the people piece of what Natalie does, and she explains that she’s lucky in terms of the people she works alongside.[06:37] — How did Natalie arrive where she is at Peer Insight? She shares both the high-level practical answer as well as the emotional answer.[11:09] — Natalie digs into how she has seen the types of problems or challenges that she’s seeing evolve over the last couple of years.[14:08] — When people come to work with Natalie, what are they initially presenting as the outcomes they’re seeking, and how does that change during the interaction?[17:28] — Natalie talks about reframing clients’ expectations when necessary.[21:02] — There’s an easy way and a hard way to get a client to move through the pain of changing the way they’re used to thinking, Natalie explains.[24:18] — Natalie digs deeper into the basics of the design process that she uses.[29:36] — We hear about the dynamics involved for Natalie in managing both her internal team and the client team.[32:59] — How does Natalie coach leaders in the kind of decision-making that she has been talking about?[37:08] — Natalie talks about the areas where she typically sees points of struggle, as well as her workarounds.[43:17] — We learn more about the dynamic involved with the peer insight side of things.[47:28] — On the technology front, what are some of the challenges and benefits in working with a remote or distributed client?[49:34] — Dawan asks Natalie what she would say to someone who is new to the field or wants to get into the design thinking space.[51:44] — What are some of Natalie’s favorite books in terms of design thinking?[55:53] — Natalie shares her advice for someone who is a CEO or running a business who is interested in making an investment in design thinking for their company.[59:04] — Where can people learn more about Natalie, her work, and Peer Insight? Links and Resources Jeanne Liedtka Jeanne Liedtka on Design Thinking 101 Designing for Growth: A Design Thinking Tool Kit for Managers by Jeanne Liedtka and Tim Ogilvie Value Proposition Design: How to Create Products and Services Customers Want (Strategyzer) by Alexander Osterwalder, Yves Pigneur, Gregory Bernarda, and Alan Smith