Up Next In Commerce

Do you drink kombucha? Do you even know what kombucha is? Don’t worry if the answer is no, you have plenty of company. In fact, various sources have put the awareness of kombucha at less than 50% for certain age demographics. Nevertheless, kombucha is big business (we’re talking a multi-billion-dollar market), and Health-Ade is right in the thick of the hunt for a slice of the pie. Health-Ade was created in a one-bedroom apartment when the founders were looking to create a product to regrow hair with the fermented tea's living culture. The kombucha liquid was just a byproduct, but after getting an offer to sell the kombucha at a local farmers market, they jumped at the chance. Health-Ade now generates more than $100,000,000 in retail sales, and is sold in 30,000 stores. But just like any brand in an emerging market, the company is looking for ways to grow even bigger.Enter Calvin Lammers, the VP of eCommerce for Health-Ade. Calvin joined Health-Ade after cutting his teeth at some of the biggest healthy CPG brands on the market, Kind, Bai, and Spindrift, where he launched a number of new products and elevated their ecommerce operations to new heights. But when he entered the world of kombucha, he had his work cut out for him. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Calvin talks through how he not only had to develop and execute content to help educate a consumer base, but also about how he had to build an entire ecommerce department from scratch. He gives advice to other brands who are facing similar struggles, including what to focus on when building an ecommerce team and what metrics to hone in on in the early days. Plus he discusses why it’s important to have a holistic view of the customer journey. Main Takeaways:An Eye Toward The Future: If you are building an ecommerce team from scratch or scaling up your ecomm operations, long-term planning is important. Think two or three years down the line at where you want to be and build toward that, but make sure you are not overextending or, overspending or over hiring because more is not always better. In fact, having too many resources might be crippling down the line as your organization gets into crunch time as you try to reach the next level of scale.Go Wide, Stay Shallow: Successfully launching a new product or product line is dependent on how many people you can get in front of. Regardless of if your product is niche, the goal should be to get your message to as many people as possible, and to have that message be simple and memorable. You don’t want to overload new customers or audiences with too much information, it’s more important to raise awareness. Small Tweak, Huge Impact: It’s not big or sexy, but focusing on small things like site load times and the checkout experience actually have the most impact in terms of ROI, so those are the things any ecommerce leaders should focus on when deploying their early resources.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, I'm Stephanie Postals, and you're listening to Up Next In Commerce. Today on the show, we have Calvin Lammers, the VP of eCommerce at Health-Ade. Calvin, welcome.Calvin:Thank you. Thanks for having me.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on. I was looking through your background, and you've worked at some of the hottest, healthy CPG brands. I was looking at Kind, and Bai, and Spindrift most recently. And so, I feel like you have a lot of good knowledge, and you're a veteran in the eCommerce world.Calvin:Thank you. Yeah, knock on wood. Yeah, thankfully I've been able to be a part of some really great brands. I mean, it's been fascinating from a personal level. It's also been helpful from a selfish consumer level as I've been able to enjoy some really good product as well, while working for these companies. So, I think it's definitely shifted my taste buds, I think for the better.Stephanie:Yes. That's great. Yeah, I just started recently enjoying Spindrifts, and my two and a half year old wants one everyday now. It's probably a bad habit that I've formed. This is so perfect California kid wanting his sparkling beverage everyday.Calvin:That's amazing. No, I definitely got my niece and nephews hooked on Spindrift. And so, it's always funny whenever my family send me photos of the kids taking a big sip of Spindrift. So yeah, love it.Stephanie:Yep, you understand then. So, with all this great background that you have, how did you land on this eCommerce path? How did you first get involved, and know this is what you wanted to do?Calvin:Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's definitely been a journey. Even just 2020 as a whole but even just getting to this point, it's interesting because I always like to say that there's no one linear path to eCommerce. I feel like everybody I've talked to that's been in this space for a while, or even new to this space, they've had a different journey than mine. So different. So, going way back when, I graduated from college and was in the mid-west in Minneapolis, and worked at Target Headquarters. Obviously, knew Target, new and loved it. So, thought that would be a great opportunity. So, worked in the snacks department there for a while. Realized, not quite for me, too corporate, very big company, and wanted to... And also was in the mid-west for a while, [inaudible] Change of pace. So, was looking to get out to New York, and looking for a retail related jobs.Calvin:And happened upon this start up, or newer company called Quidsi, which Amazon had just acquired right as I joined, and they had multiple eCommerce sites, they had diapers.com, soap.com, and a few others but obviously, I was familiar with Amazon at the time, still pretty early in the journey but was familiar generally with it but had never worked at an eCommerce company. And yeah, thankfully landed the job at this Amazon subsidiary, and really cut my teeth in the eCommerce space, building eCommerce sites, overseeing assortments, [inaudible] overall UX layouts. Really just ran the [inaudible] And I think it was exciting because there was just a lot of, what's now proven to be, it was a really good incubation for a lot of great eCommerce minds.Calvin:So, is Mark Laurie who is now the CEO of walmart.com. That was his former company, before he actually started Jet. There are a number of leaders there that they were at Jet, they started their own eCommerce companies, eCommerce D2C brands. And so, yeah, it just was really great learning around and realized I loved the entrepreneurial space, the vibe, and just loved that world. And so, obviously was working on the eCom retailer side, and decided to make the switch over to the brand, and basically be that voice and leader to build out eCommerce on the brand side, and have been doing that basically ever since. And so, as you mentioned earlier, I've been able to work either at a number of great brands, doing that same thing, in building a eCommerce focus and in channel strategies for the respective brands.Stephanie:That's very cool. So, at Quidsi, you were mentioning that there was a lot of great leaders there that you got to learn from. What is some of the advice that you remember, or that still stays top of mind from some of the people that you learned from there? Because like you were mentioning, that was a good name there, jet.com, that's great. I'm sure there's a lot of good things that you refer back to every now and then.Calvin:Absolutely. So, I think the biggest piece of advice, and I still... This is how I think I view eCommerce, and what I've carried with me, is really viewing even if it's a category, or viewing... Even if it's a certain sub-category on the site, viewing that, and as well as eCommerce, there's a whole in taking ownership, and business ownership, and really just viewing it as a business leader. So, through in through. So, while you might... Maybe you're focused on acquisition, but really having a full view of how it's going to impact the overall business where that's just going to help you work cross-functionally if you're on a team or a business leader, that's going to really carry through to being more strategic with all of your decisions, all of your investments, all of your prioritizations. Just really keeping that lens on whatever you're owning at that point in time, I think is crucial, and that's just how I've carried through to at my various stops in my career.Calvin:And even now, we're overseeing an entire eCommerce department, it really is a true business unit within the overall company since you have your separate operations, [inaudible] eCommerce divisions that companies have their own finance department, their digital marketing component. So, really having that lens, I think has been helpful for myself, and I think in general, that's just been a beneficial way to how I viewed my surroundings in business, depending on the company that I've been at.Stephanie:Yeah. I think that's an important reminder about how they are their own business unit but how do you make sure they don't become a silo? Because I think I was reading in one of the articles that when you were working at Target, the eCommerce group was in a separate building, and there was two people or something.Calvin:Yep, yep.Stephanie:And I'm like, obviously that was a long time ago, and that's how a lot of companies started out but how do you make sure that the team integrates with the company as a whole and doesn't become, "Oh, that's just the eCommerce group, that work on their own."?Calvin:Yeah. Even now, it's still a challenge, I would say but I think it's become less of an issue, or a challenge, or a hurdle, than it was when I was at Target, or at prior companies, just again with the changing views of eCommerce as a whole. But as I said, you still need to work to be integrated and fully aligned across departments, full company. And so, I think that's where... That's the other piece, is that, that's not always the case, it depends on the company. Some companies have eCommerce as it's own business unit, sometimes it lives in marketing, sometimes it lives in sales. And so, I've had differing experience but the biggest thing is, it is whether you have those individual responsibilities, or head count in the eCommerce department, or they still live in different departments, it is one of the most cross-functional areas as well for that exact reason.Calvin:Because you're touching operations, you're touching marketing, you're touching finance, you're touching brand. So, there's an innate need to interact, and work closely, and be involved with each respective areas. So, I think that's where it really the whose... Any eCom leaders, or practitioners that are either starting out, or obviously, well into their careers, really making that effort to both educate in terms of why they should be caring about eCommerce, what of the benefit, how will it impact them, how will it impact the broader company and organization? And really just being that leader, and educational voice, I guess, for the company to gain that [inaudible] And sign on. And I would say that's been one of the biggest focuses at any company, is really making those pitches, and sell-ins.Calvin:And then, obviously, at the same time, going the extra mile to show why it is beneficial for the respective department leaders to work closely with the eCommerce team, and myself personally.Stephanie:Yep. So, you were just mentioning around them being a cross-functional team, and when I think about a cross-functional times, I think about, a lot of times... And I was one of these back in my earlier days. You're not always doing the work but you're there to coordinate many groups, and bring them together, whereas in eCommerce, team having to also be a cross-functional team seems tricky. So, how do you go about building up a team like that? What are some best practices, and how do you make sure you hired the right people, and build up a good team who can do both of those functions?Calvin:Yes, I think that's... It's definitely something that I have very recent experience with. So, I think, a lot of times... And this has been the case at previous companies as well, where eCommerce was maybe less of a focus for a brand, or there weren't as many resources put into the company, or the headcount was on the lower end of the spectrum. So, you have to be very, very efficient, and careful with how you were filling any headcount openings that you had available because that might be the only one you get for the next year, or the next budget cycle. So, it's previously been super important for that reason but even now, as I just joined Health-Ade six months ago, when I joined, there was no dedicated eCommerce team. There were shared responsibilities but there was no eCommerce team to speak of. So, very quickly had to be mindful with the roles that we were building out and filling right off the bat because again, we were building this essentially from scratch.Calvin:So, had to be very thoughtful and mindful about, "Okay, over the next two years, what areas of responsibility, and what departments, or what coverage do we need? And will that last us for presumably the next two years? Because we need to be hyper-efficient, and competitive with how we're proofing out the success and viability of the channel. So, we don't want to overload, and hire a 10 person department before we break six figures in revenue." So, we want to be very strategic in that. So, with that, I think that also goes back to my mindset from Quidsi where I still very much have that start up entrepreneurial mindset. So, I've worked at companies where I was the only person on the eCommerce team for a year.Calvin:And so, it's a lot of work. I think it's been helpful for myself, as I've touched every aspect of the business, and while I don't work in a day to day at this point, I have at least a background and knowledge of how everything works, and I think that is really important for eCommerce leaders to be able to speak knowledgeably just about eCommerce fulfillment just as much as they are about eCommerce acquisition, or marketing. I think that is hugely important. And so, that's been my mindset, is hiring people that are not the jack of all trades, but maybe a utility knife, where they're able to... Quick learners, able to pick up things very quickly. They have an interest, they're super curious. But they're open, and willing, and wanting to touch multiple things of the business and not having very narrow minds that then, "Oh, that's not my responsibility."Calvin:Again, going back to having that ownership view, carries through to how I view headcount, and bringing on new team members because I think that's just hugely important. Especially early on, as you're building out a team.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, you have to have those scrappy individuals who are ready to treat the company as if it's their own, and ready to jump in wherever needed, even if they're on a team that maybe isn't relevant to the task.Calvin:100%.Stephanie:So, let's talk a bit about Health-Ade. So, I'm a fan of Health-Ade. I have been following it for a while. I also just love the story. I mean, I think the CEO was selling it. She started with $600, and she was selling it at Farmers markets, and now I think I saw you guys generate over 150,000,000 in revenue, and you're in 30,000 or more stores. So, I want to hear a little bit more about Health-Ade, what is it, and what drew you to the company?Calvin:Yeah. So, obviously, great to hear you're a fan. I am myself, I like to say that, that's been very much a part of my career path and choices where I worked at, and wouldn't be joining a company if I didn't really enjoy, or love the product, and that absolutely was the case with Health-Ade. Yeah, thankfully, I got connected with the team here. As I mentioned, they were looking to build out their eCommerce channel with really no focus, or presence to speak of before I joined. I was a big fan, it's a probiotic tea, kombucha, is their primary product line, that's as you mentioned, founders and [inaudible] Where they started out a number of years ago. That's really been the key focus for the brand, and where we've seen most of that growth to that surplus of over 100,000,000 in retail sales.Calvin:We obviously have looked to expand the kombucha, and recently, we just launched a new product line called Booch Pop, which is a ambient soda made with kombucha. And so, looking to expand into some of these other areas but really, kombucha still is the first and foremost, and primary product line for us. And it's been great to see obviously kombucha as a whole, has been a huge growth driver and really fast growing category, and Health-Ade has really been the primary contributor to that growth over the last few years. So, love the brand, loved what it stood for. Just loved everything about it. The unique challenge, and I think the thing that caused me hesitation was just obviously, with the kombucha product, it is [inaudible] Requires refrigeration, it's also in glass bottles.Calvin:So, obviously, anybody that knows anything about eCommerce fulfillment, not really the easiest things to turn into a viable eCommerce business right off the bat. So, very difficult, very, very challenging, and very costly just from an operations standpoint. So, that was definitely the biggest hurdle, or thing that gave me pause but always like a challenge. I like to say that every single brand that I've worked at, I've wanted to make more difficult. So, I've gone from snack bars, to refrigerated beverages, so gone one end of the spectrum to the other, and the food and beverage space. And that's been a big focus for us, and making that a very viable channel, and obviously just making sure that our operations and fulfillment is a strength for us, out of necessity really.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, I'm definitely going to be diving into the logistics piece in a bit, so be prepared. It seems like you choose brands too that... I mean, maybe everyone say, every brand needs convincing, to convince a buyer to buy it. But you choose brands that aren't very well know. I mean, I'm thinking about Kind, when they came out. I remember when I worked at Google, they started having the bars there but people still really weren't sure what they were. Same thing with Buy, the coconut water. And Spindrift more recently, I mean there were so many sparkling beverages [crosstalk] Convincing someone of why you don't want that artificial flavor, and why you [crosstalk] I mean, it seems like you have a pattern here where you're picking harder, and harder things, and now kombucha.Stephanie:I think I was just reading that maybe between 20 and 40 year olds, more that 50% still don't know what kombucha is. I saw that stat somewhere and I'm like... I mean, that's crazy to me. Maybe it's because I'm in California, and it seems like everyone here knows what it is but it seems like it's a hard market. How are you going about educating people? Is that why you chose to do the soda route where it's still kind of kombucha, but maybe might connect with a whole different audience, and bring them into the network of kombucha?Calvin:Yeah, no, and I think that was a definite thought and factor in the development of the Booch Pop product line, and having multiple ways in for consumers. To this point, there's been... You're a kombucha consumer but that's something that we've done studies on, and have research on in terms of the overall awareness and knowledge of kombucha. It is limited, it still is not as mainstream, or widely known as you would think at this point. So, that also is impactful to how we're approaching overall messaging, and advertising, and just overall content on digital for us. So, that follows through from everything from our Amazon product pages, to our own website, to our email flows, to our SMS marketing, to influencers. So, it's hugely impactful, and I think that's been a major, major focus for us in the brand, in that we realize that there still is a huge section of the population that not only doesn't know Health-Ade, but doesn't know even what kombucha is.Calvin:And so, I think that, at the end of the day, presents an opportunity, and I think is what we see as the open lane for us, or opportunity for Health-Ade, is really being a leader in terms of contents and education for kombucha, and gut health overall. And so, really making that case, and driving home that education piece around what is kombucha? What are the prebiotics, what are probiotics? Why are they important? What benefits do they actually help? How does that contribute to overall health and wellness? Because what we've seen, is that, that benefit is actually, strangely enough, unlike most food and beverage categories, taste is actually a second driver. It's actually the health and benefits that is the primary driver that we are focused on.Calvin:So, we're really making clear why somebody should be incorporating kombucha in their daily diets, what are the benefits? And just really driving that home. That's, I think, where we see the opportunity. And so, that also relates to content and messaging. And again, you have a better ability, or avenue to do that on digital as opposed to just your traditional retailing on shelf, and you're limited to just the label, or the packaging. So, I think that actually is where it helps brands like Health-Ade, or even start up an emerging brand, so you can create more engaging, and enticing, and interactive content in messaging that really can hit home the messaging and objectives that you're trying to drive, especially as you're building awareness, and overall education for the brand or category that you're in.Stephanie:Yeah, I think the gut health thing is still new to a lot of people. I mean, my friend the other day just got a test done to show the bacteria in their gut, and it was really bad, the test results, where she's having to do a whole entire diet reset, and take a bunch of things out, and then, re-introduce them, and take all these probiotics and stuff.Calvin:It's certainly been an education process for myself because yeah, certainly, I had somewhat general awareness of good health, and probiotics, but even the amount that I've learned, being at Health-Ade for the last few months, yeah, it's a very, very important part to the overall body, and there's just so many aspects to it, that it does require a decent amount of education. So, it's a journey that we've also got to bring consumers along. It is, as much as I'm going through the same journey myself.Stephanie:Yep. So, are there different channels that you utilize when you're maybe going the education route, and you want to get in front of the new people, and educate them on why this a good product to try out? Especially now when they can't maybe test it.Calvin:Yep.Stephanie:I mean, I remember, in the early days of Health-Ade, there was a lot of samples at Whole Foods, or wherever I would go, that's how it came on my radar. But what are you doing now to introduce it to people, especially if they can't really try it?Calvin:Right. Yeah, so I think that's where we have a couple of different channels that we're focused on. So, obviously, within the eCommerce and digital purview, we have our D2C businesses, we have Amazon, our eRetailers. And then, we also have Last Mile. So, obviously, on eCom, going back to the overall financials, and build of that business, it gets very difficult to [inaudible] individual bottles of kombucha. It just overall doesn't work, the economics don't work out. So, traditionally, we sell 12 packs, which again, are quite a bit of product for a consumer who's new to kombucha, or new to Health-Ade, and hasn't tried before. So, what we've done recently is that we built out some sampler packs, so included a couple of different flavors for our different product lines [inaudible] As well as our new Health-Ade plus line, which is our kombucha with additional benefits.Calvin:And so, that's been our primary focus recently in driving new customer acquisition in these sample packs, or variety packs, and we've seen some really good responses mixed with that education which again, via our different channels. So, via paid social, we've tested out a few different things for longer-form content, and driving to landing pages, and that's worked extremely well where you have use [inaudible] Initial tidbits, or insights that you include in the copy in the messaging with the paid social campaigns. And then, driving to the landing page which really fleshes out more of that storytelling piece. And these are all consideration and top of funnel campaigns and tactics, and we've seen really, really strong responses to that. And so, that's been super efficient for us, and seen really good responses.Calvin:And then, at the same time, we also are focusing on... We have our delivery partners in Last Mile, partners like Instacart. And so, with Instacart, and these other channels, you can obviously purchase just one bottle. So, been really leveraging the ad platforms, and some of these emerging platforms as the way to drive trial where the cost to entry, or the barrier to entry is a little bit lower, just because they're just buying one bottle. And so, we've been actively engaging in working with the Instacart ad platform to promote our products on Instacart as well, and really seen some huge gains there, and see that as a really good opportunity to drive trial on individual bottles when sampling isn't an option obviously, currently.Stephanie:All right, so let's talk a bit about launching products. So, you have launched a bunch of new products but also, for the first product maybe in the line versus launching a newer [inaudible] Like you just did with the soda. So, tell me about the differences when a brand is just starting out, trying to get the word out there, and putting out their first product or two versus launching something very different like soda to a market who's maybe expecting just kombucha.Calvin:Yeah. So, I think it really goes back to, I think, overall with the roll out and marketing approach. So, obviously, with a new brand, or really establishing any market space as a whole for a new brand, you're going to go to much wider, you're going to have to go much, much shallower with the content that you want to engage right off the bat because you're trying to drag overall impressions, and touchpoints, and just top of mind awareness for that new product line, or new brand. And you're going to have to go a little bit wider spread with your focus, and your tactics that you're employing, and really going true, true top of funnel brand awareness as opposed to a new product line. With Booch Pop, obviously, this is going to [inaudible] Similar or, if you're drafting off a different category, like at Kind is probably the best example where Kind had it's original nut bar line.Calvin:And then, came out with the clusters, then the granola bars, and came out with a number of different product lines. And so, with that, it's different because once you establish that brand recall and awareness, you're either able to leverage that and target within that specific category, or... I think this is the [inaudible] With Booch Pop, is that even people who might be aware of Health-Ade, or again, maybe they weren't interested in kombucha, or they hadn't tried before, and we've gotten this response to where it's like, "Is it too healthy? Do we want to target some more mass consumers?" We can draft off of that brand persona and establishment, and cache, and either go super targeted within that and say, "Okay, these are the specific audiences that we want to target, and draft, and leverage that brand cache."Calvin:Or, if there's just general awareness, the brand can draft and go into an entirely new segment or audience, and utilize that established brand elements as much as you can. Obviously, finding that right balance and depth that you go is the... End of the day, that's the biggest question but that's, I think, the difference that I've seen in my experience and how that's been incorporated to the roll out for new product lines, and yeah, very much similar story to how that played out at Kind as well.Stephanie:Yep, very cool. So, let's talk logistics a bit. So, you're talking about the cold chain process, and you've got glass bottles. What did it look like when you joined and they want you to build out the eCommerce channel, what did that look like behind the scenes? And what were some of the lessons as you've been going about that?Calvin:Yeah. So, I think right off the bat, when I joined, I guess the biggest thing is that we were utilized... And again, because Health-Ade, like a number of brands, saw huge demand and interest in eCom and direct-to-consumer earlier this year due to the COVID surge, and it was a minimal business. And so, right off the bat, needed to get things rolling forward to meet the increasing consumer demand. So, for the fulfillment itself, really hadn't been a focus for building out what that actual packaging, and refrigeration, and insulation looked like. So, we were just using styrofoam coolers to keep the kombucha cold, and adding some ice packs, and shipping to consumers. So, not the most sustainable, or eco-friendly option, especially as we're increasing volume. So, right off the bat, that was a big focus for us, is really finding, and implementing a sustainable, and eco-friendly liner and insulation option, which thankfully we were able to get in place pretty quickly when I joined a few months ago.Calvin:And so, that was one of the biggest pushes for us, is obviously, just fitting with our brand, and our persona, wanted to make sure we were also being very sustainable, and mindful with how we were actually getting product to consumers. So, that was the biggest thing right off the bat. Currently, we have three different fulfillment warehouses, and so that helps us get to most consumers in two day... Or, 95% of the country in two days. But it still poses challenges because there's still that refrigeration requirement, so that limits the number of days because we don't want a product obviously waiting in trucks over the weekend or anything like that, so it limits the number of days that we can actually ship.Calvin:And as consumers as we know these days get more and more... Their expectations for delivery times increases. There's an opportunity to decrease the delays in delivery times with their products, and so, that's the current focus, is how can we reduce from two days to even one day, or even next day delivery? Especially, in key markets So, that's really the journey over the last six months that we've been in. And obviously, it's been a lot [inaudible] In six months, and I got a lot more to go here going into next year.Stephanie:Yeah, and how's the forecasting process been? Because I mean, the world's just been so crazy, and especially, leaning into eCommerce right when things are crazy, how do you go about forecasting things so that you have what you need, you don't go out of stock, you've got your variety packs? I mean, it sounds like you've brought a lot of new things to the brand but that's a lot of new challenges that'll come with it.Calvin:Yeah, you hit it spot on. So yeah, especially, we have no historicals, no base line to go off of, so that's... Our team has been hyper focused in really nailing down, and narrowing in that forecast, especially, we added new SKUs to the mix. So, it's really been... Thankfully, our warehouse and 3PL partners have been super, super helpful in partnering with us, in maybe over-stocking based on previous demand to ensure that we have sufficient inventory, especially if we have an upcoming promotional push, or we're leaning more on any of our acquisition campaigns. If we were just going off of historicals, obviously, if we were selling a couple hundred cases a month a year ago, to then change and go to a few thousand cases, even alone, that's a huge increase. At first glance, it'd be very tough selling with a lot of partners, or 3PLs that would take the traditional growth and forecasting route.Calvin:So, with that, they've been really helpful in loading, and carrying more inventory than needed to anticipate any increases. But then, on top of that, it's really staying close to the vest and staying ery, very... Being very diligent with how we're tracking it. So, we built our reporting to track by location, by SKU, on a daily basis for inventory levels. And then, if we see any risk, working quickly to turnaround shipments to get out the door, and get us back in stock. And so, it takes a village to say the least, and thankfully, it's just again, having the right partners, and really having the team be hyper diligent, and stay close to it, has really made a huge difference.Stephanie:Yeah, I've got it. So, I'm guessing you've also had a lot of experiences when it comes to figuring out what platform you want to choose, or re-platforming at the brands that you've been at in the past. How did you do that with Health-Ade, and how do you figure out what platform's going to work, and what kind of features you need, and how to make it so it'll convert?Calvin:Yeah. So yeah, the platform side's been interesting because even that's evolved pretty extensively. So, for me, at the end of the day, you want to have scalability, and also enough customization, especially early on, that you can really make the full use of any platform. Calvin:Long term, you want a turnkey Platform that again, can scale, integrates well with most of their channels, apps you need but you don't want a very dedicated, or customized CMS that will require a lot of heavy lift, or work whether it's on the internal team, or external party because the cost and hours are going to quickly snowball from there. So, I think that's where for us, again with a limited team, or smaller team, and especially early in our journey, that, that customization, scalability is really the biggest piece for us in deciding with platform we ultimately landed on.Stephanie:Got it. And what kind of metrics are you looking at after you... You've got the platform up and running, what kind of things do you look at to make sure things are going well, and how do you figure out what you want to maybe test maybe, and see how to even optimize it further?Calvin:Yeah. And that's a big thing for us. Obviously, there's a couple of components there. So, there's the Platform A, but then there's the overall site design, and architecture. And so, that's the biggest piece that we still have in our journey, we previously were on WooCommerce with WordPress as the CMS. And so, a lot of that is legacy content, and pages, and code that's been built there that we've evolved and tweaked it over time, before we had the eCommerce team. So, that's where we're making... We're flying the plane as we continue to tweak it, and build it, but really, that's the biggest opportunity, is that there's only so much that a platform can do without the actual highly functional, seamless UX experience for consumers. Super engaging navigation and content, that's still needed in order to best leverage and utilize whatever platform you end on.Calvin:And so, that's the next piece, is we've seen... We continually are looking at our conversion rates, our balance rates, our time on site, our click throughs, and the time to conversion. And that's really what we're holding as our key metrics here, to measure true success of the website before we get into consumer journey, lifetime value, and things of that nature, just the overall site experience. So, that's the biggest thing that we're trying to address, and improve now over the next few months, now that have the right platform in place. So, working with an overall site redesign, and site build, to really bring our full digital experience for the website to match our brand persona, and really bring that up to speed, and make a viable experience for consumers that really will sustain us long term.Stephanie:Got it. Are there any changes that come to mind that have made the biggest impact around the consumer journey, or seeing those conversions increase? Even if it's maybe starting to introduce that variety pack. What do you think the impacts have come from this year?Calvin:I think site load times, honestly. So, it's just something as simple as that. Obviously, a second in the digital age, or a D2C experience is a life time. So, that was a big focus just recently, just reducing page load times, reducing font sizes, page weights, image weights, all these things. And almost impacting how the page are loading. Making sure that add to cart buttons are loading first, as opposed to maybe copy further down the page. So, just those small tweaks have huge impacts just right off the bat. And so, that's really what comes to mind right off the bat, is just making sure the time from landing to checkout is as seamless and as quick possible because you want to make it as easy for customers to checkout and give as little reasons as possible for consumers to bounce. And so, I think reducing the page load times has been crucial, as well as testing out... Again, just where we're driving new customers to.Calvin:So, we've updated our collections pages where we drive a lot of our traffic, and just updating the layout, and the overall structure, adding add to cart buttons on the collections page. Again, just to remove another step needed to checkout. So, those minor tweaks are really what we're focused on now until we completely revamp the website as a whole, and thankfully, they've made some significant improvements, and had a marked impact so far.Stephanie:Very cool. So, where do you see the world of eCommerce and D2C brands headed in the next year or two?Calvin:Yeah, I mean, if I had $1,000,000, and wish I can do and embed on that because yeah, I mean, if anybody told me that in 2020 we would see eCommerce penetration go from the five, 6% to... I think the last figure that I saw was 11, 12% just in 2020 alone. Yeah, I would have said, "You're joking." So, who knows at this point? But at this point, I don't think we're going back. I think this is the new standard for new consumers. I think that's what I've seen, is that every consumer, or most consumers that have either been forced, or shifted purchase behaviors to online, especially in the grocery space since food and beverages still being the lagger in terms of under indexing versus other categories in eCommerce penetration, and that's changed tremendously over this year. So, I think that the consumers are going to stick with that trend.Calvin:So, a lot of consumers that have tried grocery delivery for the first time will likely stick with that over the next couple of years. I think it's going to be more... I think the biggest thing is that it's just going to become more seamless with... Especially, on the brand side with how they view channels, I guess. So, instead of having this prior mindset where it's like, okay, there's brick and mortar, then there's this eCommerce thing, and they're separate channels, you need to be mindful of the entire customer journey because yeah, you might have a consumer that you have a programmatic ad that they get started with, and then, they're purchasing in store. Or, they see a programmatic ad, and they're purchasing on last delivery, or maybe they're in store, or buying a pick up order, or maybe they're ordering via an SMS channel.Calvin:So, I think it's just becoming more holistic with it's not a matter of channel separating but having a true, unified vision of that customer journey, and approaching that as such as a company, and a brand, and that's very much what we're thinking off as we're building out our collective efforts at Health-Ade.Stephanie:All right. So, how are you guys prioritizing retail versus eCommerce? Where are you investing right now? Are you pulling back a bit from retail, and learning more into D2C, or how are you thinking about that?Calvin:Yeah. So, I think that goes in line with my previous comments. So, we're absolutely still supporting our retails channels since as I mentioned earlier, that is where the bulk of our business is currently but we're also changing in how we're activating and supporting those retailers. So, maybe traditionally, or previously, we might be supporting retailers in on shelf, or POS material, instead we're running geo-targeted display ads, or paid social ads, or running a programmatic display campaign to support a specific retailer. So again, just leveraging more digital components as well as supporting the last deliver, or Last Mile platforms like Instacarts that still... Obviously, the revenue in volume is being pulled through the retail stores.Calvin:So, it's definitely not a shift of focus, or priority, or in an investment, it change in terms of how that support is played out, I guess. So, that's, I think really been the biggest change for us. And then, on top of that, obviously [inaudible] that support from the eCommerce piece, and how that plays into the mix. What I've also seen at previous companies, and a number of white papers, and research that I've seen, is that any eCommerce advertising, or digital advertising, it will drive eCommerce, and it has obviously a huge impact on eCommerce specific sales but a lot of the impact is actually seen in your traditional brick and mortar, or retail sales. And so, having that lens, and that... If you're spending a dollar for eCommerce advertising, it doesn't mean that entire pack is going to eCom, it is also driving the overall brand awareness, and retail sales.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, which is definitely a tricky thing to measure, and then try and convince maybe [crosstalk] It's having brand awareness, and it's also driving those retail sales but I can't exactly track it right now.Calvin:It's the age old debate. Yeah, I've been there all too many times. That's a fun one.Stephanie:All right. So, with a couple minutes left, let's move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question, and you have a minute or less to answer.Calvin:Oh, man.Stephanie:Are you ready, Calvin?Calvin:I think as ready as I'll ever be, so let's do it.Stephanie:All right. What's the best piece of advice you've ever gotten?Calvin:Best piece of advice, I guess is... Again, don't look back. Take ownership, and own your mistakes. I think you can't shy aware from your mistakes, just make sure you don't make them again.Stephanie:I like that, that's a good one. What's up next on your reading list?Calvin:Next on my reading list, I would say right now, I actually got a book that I've been meaning to get to for a while. It's called The Sympathizers, it's a historical fiction novel set after the Vietnam War, in the US. So, it's one of those that I've had on my list for a while, and it's about time I finally get into it.Stephanie:Sounds good, I'll have to check that out. What do you not understand today that you wish you did?Calvin:I would say the biggest thing that I understand today that I wish I did was just the impact to that eCommerce operations and fulfillment has, and in total business. I've said this, I think, in the past speaking to other people but if I knew then what I knew now, I would have gone back and got an MBA in logistics and supplier chains, just with how much of an impact that has on eCommerce. And again, going into it, had no idea how crucial that is to a viable eCom business.Stephanie:Got it. That's good, you pivoted the question which now I think I want to ask going forward because you took it in the route of what do you understand now, that you didn't understand that you wish you did. So, I like that. That's a new question I'm going to have to add in.Stephanie:So, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be?Calvin:Oh. I would say it would probably be about pop culture in... I guess pop culture and entertainment in the '90s, and my first guest would definitely be Conan O'Brien, I think just because in general I love just talking about pop culture, and entertainment in the '90s, and Conan O'Brien was one of... It still is absolutely one of my favorite late night hosts, and his podcast has been one of my favorites, and it's been a good one to have a hefty playlist for his podcast episodes to get through the past few months.Stephanie:That's a good one. All right, and then, the last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on eCommerce in the next year?Calvin:Biggest thing I think will be, I guess technology at the end of the day but then, also, just again, how consumers are changing their shopping behavior. So, I've said this in other forums but previously, my biggest expectation is that integrating technology into just the kitchen and the pantry, again, speaking more on food and beverage since that's been my space, my territory. I think that really seems like the opportunity where you want... Especially, if consumers are shipping more to eCom and digital delivery, having that be less of a top of mind thing, I think, and making it more efficient and removing any legwork on the consumer side will be beneficial in the long run. So, whether that's scales that you're placing products on, so that your subscription knows when you're almost out of your coffee, and you need a refill, or anticipating based on your purchase behaviors, I think that is probably the next trend.Calvin:Especially, on the consumable side. That's, again, just going to remove pain points in consumer's journeys, especially when you're getting it delivered to home, that's really the biggest one at the end of the day.Stephanie:Cool, I like that. That is a really good, unique answer that we have not had so far.Calvin:Oh, great.Stephanie:I like it. All right, Calvin. Well, this has been very fun. Thanks for coming on and sharing all your eCommerce knowledge. Where can people learn more about you, and Health-Ade?Calvin:Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, Calvin Lammers. And if you want to check out more about Health-Ade, and read some more about that education content that I mentioned, you can go to health-ade.com.Stephanie:Thanks so much.Calvin:Thank you.

In recent years, UrbanStems has grown from operating its online flower ordering and delivery business in a few markets to processing and delivering orders from coast to coast. It’s a DTC success story, but it was by no means an easy road to get to where the company is now. Scaling is one of the most challenging parts of running a business. Where do you allocate your resources? How do you enter new markets? And what do you do when disaster strikes in a way that could topple your business?Seth Goldman had to answer those questions and more when he took over as the CEO of UrbanStems in 2017. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he spilled the tea on everything he learned along the way. Seth explains how to navigate through the process of scaling, finding bottlenecks in your operations, and breaks down the ways to look at ROI when trying to break into a new market. Plus, he gives some insight into best practices when adding headcount. Main Takeaways:Finding the Bottleneck: There is a tendency for everyone to think everything is the problem, so it’s important to use data to prove that you have an actual bottleneck rather than anecdotal experiences. With the data as a guide, you can zero in on the actual bottlenecks and fix them at the source.Tipping The Scale: There are various hurdles to scaling. Doing it successfully is about finding the right level of balance when it comes to allocating resources. Are the current processes failing? Is there new technology that can create efficiencies? Or maybe you should be allocating headcount in a different way. Answering those questions is the best way to determine how to stimulate sustainable growth.Welcome To [Enter City Here]: When expanding your business into new markets, understanding the ROI of moving into those cities is the first step. It’s not enough to figure out if there are potential customers. Other factors such as supply chain, cultural considerations, and non-financial benefits also need to be taken into account.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-Founder at mission.org. Today, on the show, we have Seth Goldman, the CEO of UrbanStems. Seth, welcome.Seth:Thank you, Stephanie. Great to be here.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm excited to have you. For anyone who does not know UrbanStems, can you tell me a bit about it?Seth:Sure. UrbanStems is a six-year-old old company that is the premier provider of direct to consumer florals.Stephanie:That's awesome, and how long have you been with the company?Seth:I've been at the company for about three and a half years.Stephanie:Cool. What brought you to UrbanStems and what was your background before?Seth:Yeah, so it was a person actually that brought me, the founder, Ajay Kori is a dear friend of mine, and we both worked at a company called Quidsi together, which was acquired by Amazon back in 2011, and we remained very close friends from that point on. I went off to a company called HelloFresh. He went off to found UrbanStems, and we reunited in 2017.Stephanie:That's great. What did you do at HelloFresh?Seth:Yeah, I was the CEO of the US business, helping to grow HelloFresh from its near infancy in the US to a much larger business, and it was a wild ride and I had a lot of fun doing it.Stephanie:That's great. It seems like a good company to get a lot of lessons from, to bring to UrbanStems, like similar problems maybe, or things to tackle.Seth:Absolutely, both in terms of the apps, specific product, a perishable product, and a complicated supply chain, as well as I'd say the softer skills in terms of scaling a business, scaling a team and the challenges that come along with that.Stephanie:Very cool. When you came into UrbanStems, what was going on back in 2017, and how has it changed since?Seth:Yeah. When I came on board, it was great. Ajay brought me in and asked me to help beef up the operations of the company. I'd say, as a consumer, the biggest difference between now and then is that you could only get UrbanStems in a few select cities across the US at that point, and we made a big decision to go nationwide in early 2018, and that's really helped us scale the business since then. Although, we really still love our city delivery method that we still have in New York and DC. It creates that really intimate relationship with the customer and their recipient. We hope to be able to do more of that going forward.Stephanie:Tell me a bit about how do you pick cities? Of course, if it's started in a certain city, you're probably going to launch there, but how would you go about picking which cities to start in and having that city method that you're talking about, is developing a good relationship in that city?Seth:It's a pretty simple exercise of figuring out which cities are likely to have enough revenue and an ROI on that city to get in there. We believe there probably around 30 cities that we could identify today that likely makes sense. In terms of which cities we'd prioritize next, we would really rely on data. That data would help us understand what would be the revenue opportunity, how quickly we might get there. From there, we would also layer on supply chain and we would try to figure out if that city was easier or more complex from a supply chain standpoint. Finally, we'd overlay brand. We'd try to understand if there were any idiosyncrasies of that city that made it more or less attractive. Then finally, we might say, does that city have any sort of non-financial strategic importance to our business?Stephanie:Oh, great. Okay. This is a very interesting topic that I actually have not talked to many people on the show, so I want to double click into all of those, if you're happy to go there with me.Seth:Sure, let's go.Stephanie:All right. When you're picking your cities, you're talking about developing which ones have an ROI, and then of course, looking into a bunch of data for rolling out to the next cities. How do you go about developing which cities will have a good ROI?Seth:Yeah. The great news is that we have data to show what revenue we have in those cities currently. We would have to do a deep dive analysis of what zip codes we thought we could actually deliver to, depending on the city, if it's a city that we could get in with bike messengers, as we currently do in New York and DC, or if it's a city that would force us to rely exclusively on cars, which is not a major concern although we really love our brand promise of delivering via bike where we can.Stephanie:That's fun.Seth:Yeah, we would then use analytics to understand where we stand in each city revenue versus where we think we might be able to get to, where we start to have to look at some proxy data. For example, Google can help us understand what we believe our penetration in that city is versus a benchmark say of New York or DC, where we currently have our strongest brand recognition. That could give us some guidance as to whether, if we're doing X dollars of revenue, do we think if we jump in, we can increase that by 25%, 50% or more than 100%? Then we have to partner with the marketing team to understand what sort of a marketing effort would be required to get us there within a year or 18 months to break even, which is sort of, not a hard rule, but it's sort of a general proxy of what we're going to be looking for.Stephanie:Okay. When it comes to that marketing effort, what kind of channels do you look for, especially when you're launching in a new city where maybe you're not well-known and it's like, this seems like a city maybe similar to DC, but we've never been there before? What kind of things do you explore to get those new customers and brand awareness?Seth:We have to probably devote certain on the ground marketing campaigns. It could be as simple as going to street fairs, it could be that we would take some sort of local radio or other sort of top of funnel awareness advertising out. Each city though, is really going to be unique. I think that's something that we've learned, even just having New York and DC, we see small differences in the average order value. We see small differences even between, say Manhattan and Brooklyn, in terms of the percentage of flowers versus plants that the consumers purchase. So, we'll have to do some research that helps us understand the consumer and then that would help us figure out which marketing channels would make sense. But we almost certainly would be more comfortable getting aggressive in awareness marketing when we jump into a new city, because the return on that investment should be pretty strong, given that when we get into a city, the conversion rate, we would expect to be higher on our ecommerce platform.Stephanie:Yeah. That's cool. I can also imagine if you have bike deliveries, like if they had the backpack with your logo and beautiful flowers sticking out of it. That in and of itself could be a great marketing tactic to spread word of mouth.Seth:Absolutely. That is an entire romantic vision is true, except hopefully for the flowers sticking out the back, because they should be in contained packaging.Stephanie:Oh yeah. I guess I would just buy all over the place if they're just sticking out. Huh.Seth:But we do have branded everything for our couriers, t-shirts and vests, the coveted sweatshirts and hoodies. In fact, one of the downfalls of our sort of head of delivery was that he designed a hoodie that was too well loved that, not to accuse our corporate team, but they started taking them in numbers that they shouldn't have so we had to place an extra order. It really is the most comfortable hoodie.Seth:But it accomplishes two goals. The first, as we discussed is, it's really nice branding and advertising for the company. The second is it helps make these employees in these remote locations feel more part of our broader and greater team and brand.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. Are there any other on the ground methods like that, that you're experimenting with or that you are hopeful of to promote word of mouth in maybe a new and different way?Seth:It's interesting in, especially the last nine months, we probably pulled back on a lot of that for obvious reasons. I think that it's an area where we would experiment, but I think you also have to be careful because it's hard to measure the effectiveness of that spend it takes, not just monetary resources, but really time. One of the things that I noted when I came on board in 2017 is that my city managers were being asked to do a lot of these in-person events. We hadn't really thought through how much of their time was being taken and how to think about them as an operations manager versus a marketing manager when we had a lot of work to do to scale the operations of the business. I think people just have to be thoughtful and careful about the KPIs that they're going to measure people against.Seth:But the people who are responsible for budget, but also the people whose time is going to be taken during these events. The good news is that the people love doing the events. These small scale events were very popular for the staff that, even after I told them that they should pull back, I found out months later, they were still doing them because they enjoyed them, but then they would complain that they didn't have time for other things. It did have to lead to some alignment meetings.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a really good point. So, thinking about the next piece that you mentioned was layering on supply chain when rolling out into new cities. It seems really difficult of course, with fresh items. So, how do you all go about thinking about that in a new city and building out a good supply chain that makes sure the flowers don't just die in a warehouse or something?Seth:A very sort of blocking and tackling for our goods is that you have to have a refrigerator. It has to be something that you have confidence is going to maintain temperature at around 35 degrees. And you, say very simple things like just like you're developing any real estate, make sure you give enough time to build it out, so you're not under pressure, because it's hard to come back from that if you're forcing yourself to open up on January 1, but you just can't have the refrigerator installed before then, you're going to fail. Making sure you understand your lead times. But for our business, I'd say the most important thing is understanding the notes in our networks. We have a larger facility in the Greater DC Area that helps service our New York and DC same day delivery locations.Seth:We have to think through as we branch out to more cities, if so for example, Philadelphia, we could certainly service from the same Maryland facility with limited additional CapEx, with limited additional complexity added to our supply chain. As we think to the West Coast, or as we think to, say the big populations in Texas or in the upper Midwest, if we have a facility nearby, there may be synergies where we can pull product from there and deliver it to a local facility. I would say that the farther we get from our home base, in terms of miles, in terms of being three hours and three time zones behind, you have to just ... it's hard to model it out on paper, but you have to start to acknowledge that the difficulties, things that could get lost in translation. You go from having everyone on the same eight hour, 9:00 to 5:00, to only overlapping for five hours, that can just sort of add strain to the systems.Seth:If you're going to go to the West coast, have you hired someone, did you decide that you're going to spend three months having them on the East Coast, training up, learning your culture before you send them to the West Coast, or you're going to take a gamble and just hire them on the West Coast and through more Zoom calls and maybe someone flying to California, try to build them into the culture and the brand of the company? I think those are really important decisions that don't sound like supply chain decisions, but ultimately, really help you down the line when someone is going to have to make a lot of executive calls that will impact your supply chain and will impact your ability to be successful or not on a day-to-day and week-to-week basis.Stephanie:Yeah. I think that's so important around building culture and a team. I mean, especially right now, where everything is digital and companies are still having to hire and find the right people, and it's kind of hard over Zoom. I've interviewed some people over zoom and it's like, you don't really know if you know them or how many notes they have in front of them, or what's really going on. How do you guys go about building a relationship and hiring? I think earlier you mentioned having this connection economy, where everyone's on digital tools, but people still want to connect in the real world, but maybe you can't right now. How do you think about that with teams and cultures and hiring new people?Seth:Yeah, that's a great question. We actually have hired probably about half a dozen people since the lockdowns were initiated and since our corporate staff for the vast majority of folks have not gone into the office. I'd say that we had one key advantage, which was that, before March, we did have a team that was split between New York and DC, so it was not uncommon for us to be on video conferencing. That transition was, to some degree, at least natural. In terms of the hiring process, I'd say the hardest part, and one that we definitely still have not right, and I'll be honest, for some small company, we didn't have it right necessarily before the pandemic was the onboarding. That the team though has started to make headway, we've gotten our swag. We've actually pulled it from the various physical locations and people are getting a care package now when they are in their first week at the company.Seth:I make sure to reach out to new hires during their first week to just welcome them with a warm email and then tell them when they're feeling no longer overwhelmed that we'll have a 30 or 45 minute call with no specific agenda other than really getting to know each other. I can try to sprinkle a few of my thoughts around company mission and values into those calls. Seth:I think for hiring managers and/or senior executives out there, I would also say, it's not just you making sure you know them. If you have someone that you really like, how are they getting to know you and feeling it on both sides? That you have an easier time convincing them to come on board.Stephanie:Yeah. Are there any best tips that you recommend to make sure that the candidates get to know you because, especially over Zoom, it seems like people are always talking over each other, even with ... I was talking earlier about internet, the video's not on, I had to turn it off. Is there anything that you guys practice to make sure that, not only are you getting to know the candidates, but also that they feel comfort with you and can ask questions and feel confident about that?Seth:Yeah, so we do as much as possible try to do video rather than just phone call interviews. I guess you could make arguments that that's better or worse, but it certainly allows people to respond to facial expressions, queues when it looks like someone is about to speak so you can try not to talk over them. I do reserve the last 15 minutes of every interview to allow the interviewee to ask me questions. That's both for them, and also, I secretly am looking to see how prepared someone is by the quality and thoughtfulness of the questions that they ask. If anyone is local, I will try to meet with them in person. We have to be thoughtful about that. Let's say we have two candidates and one is in New York and one is in DC, and we haven't crossed this bridge yet, but how do we make sure there's no implicit bias that we're pushing for the person that we met in person? But we try to have a variety of interviewers for each role. I think we've done a pretty good job with that.Stephanie:Okay, cool. Thinking through bringing on new employees, the first thing that's coming to my mind is scaling companies, something you've had quite a bit of success with around HelloFresh and now UrbanStems. I wanted to hear a little bit about how you think about scaling companies, whether it's at UrbanStems or HelloFresh or anything in the past that you've worked on.Seth:Yeah. I think what I try to do is, when I do have a moment to step back, is look at each function within the business, or I look what our plan is, where are we expected to get to over the next year? Whether that's our revenue mark, whether that's improvement along other KPIs or important metrics, and I try to pair that against each function. Is each function at a point where they can make that leap without any additional people? Are they at a point where they can make that leap but they'll need to improve just process? Do they need technology investments in their function in order to be more successful? We are nowhere near perfect on this, but each year we've gotten better. Our planning process is in the sort of June/July timeframe, of talking through what that plan is, and each team trying to think through what they will need to be successful there.Seth:I would say that stepping back where you run into problems, and it's sort of dual-edged sword, is if you put cash out and investments ahead of growth, you can get yourself in trouble. But you can also get yourself in trouble if you put growth ahead of investment. It is a dangerous game. I think, when it comes to hiring people we try to be thoughtful. It's also, what level are you hiring at? That's something you'll often hear me say to the team if they ask for another resource. To me, it's most important that we get that right level right. Very different to hire an associate versus even someone with two or three years of experience where you're saying, we just could not be successful, we hired someone just out of college. My next question will almost assuredly be, why?Seth:And managing the specific work that someone needs to do against the experience that you're saying is required. You don't want to hire someone too senior to do junior level work. They won't find it satisfying. There is such a thing as overqualified. Then on the flip side, you have to be careful what you can expect of someone more junior and what level of accountability and ownership you can place on them. I think, to me, that's the most important thing, is making sure you're hiring it to the right level, that everyone is aligned, that this role is needed. The reality is, in almost any startup, you're going to have a whole slew of resources that are not yet hired that people think are necessary, and trying to at least agree on alignment on when those might get prioritized.Seth:If something comes up that accelerates something, that happens too. That can throw a wrench in plans and you have to walk people through that that's happening and have conversations, well, hey, how did this new role cut in line ahead of the others? That can be hard, but you have to do it.Stephanie:I've definitely seen that in the past. At previous companies I've been at, I worked in finance, and every team always wanted headcount. Everyone always had a reason and were pretty good at justifying why they need those people. How do you go about spotting those opportunities of like, this is an area that obviously needs investment and I see growth coming after that? How do you actually think through finding the opportunities when they seem like they're pretty hard to spot? What's holding what up to create growth or to create exponential growth in the future?Seth:Yeah. I would say that you're sort of hiring for two reasons. One is growth, like you said, we're truly, there's a revenue or a profit or a customer experience opportunity that's not yet ... We can't go after because we don't have someone on the team. The other is that we're, I don't want to say things are crumbling, but sort of this more fixing the foundational type hires that you have a critical process that's not being executed the way you want. That's where you have to start to lean in and understand, is that a process technology or a resource issue? Once you get comfort that that's a resource issue, from my standpoint, typically that's a pretty easy hire, because, unless you have invested in something that's causing friction, that itself is not worth investing in, that hire will pay for themselves financially, because they're going to unblock something that, that is important to be unblocked.Seth:That's how I get comfortable with those kinds of hires. On the revenue side, if it's creating something new, you can run ROI models. Sometimes you can do those in your head. Sometimes you put them down on paper. Then for other functions, sometimes it is a little bit of taking a risk. For example, it was about a year or 18 months ago that we decided we needed a stronger social presence. We weren't sure exactly what that meant financially, but we brought someone on board on our brand director, Megan's team. After a few months, we started to really see results. We were really impressed. We managed to, in the last 18 months, five X on our Instagram following, not that that's the be all and end all of KPIs. Then for the sort of CFO in me, we started to see revenue, directly attributable revenue follow that.Seth:I think the other thing that, this is where managers have to do, is they have to sometimes take a risk. They say, there's a resource I'm really asking for, this is what I think it will return, and when they have something pan out, they are able to probably come to that next meeting with an ask with a little more confidence themselves, and with the, me again wearing my CFO hat, and me having more confidence to say yes to that opportunity.Stephanie:That's cool. I like you wearing your CFO hat. I appreciate that with a background in finance. You just mentioned, which I'm now I'm sure a lot of people are like, well, tell me how you grew your social, because that is an avenue that obviously a lot of brands are relying on and it's becoming even more important with the ability to click and buy on social, or at least it's headed in that direction. What did you guys do to grow your social presence?Seth:Yeah, so the very first thing we did is, like I mentioned, hire a dedicated resource, someone who spends probably 75% plus of her time thinking through our social channels and how we can become more influential there. Second is, once we started to see some results there, we added a SaaS software platform that helped us assess which visuals were going to be more engaging for our customer base. We did, though still have conversations, interestingly enough, the photos that I'd say I prefer from a brand perspective, those with people in them significantly underperform those of just flowers.Stephanie:Oh, interesting. This is a piece of tech that you guys were utilizing to figure out which ones like, which images would you best?Seth:Yeah. I actually don't know how precise it is, but it certainly helped us. We didn't need that to tell us that people underperformed flowers, but even just different variants of a similar image, they were able to pretty convincingly predict which one was going to outperform. Obviously we are betting on engagement, at least these measurable engagement statistics mattering. I think one of the hardest things in social is understanding what matters and what doesn't. Like I said, having our Instagram following at 150,000 versus at 30,000, where it was, we think that is directionally very good, is that, can I quantify what that means for our company? No. Will we continue to push to increase our reach. Absolutely. Are we seeing that increased reach is translating into direct revenue? Yes. Is that our only goal? No.Seth:Do we know the relationship between directly attributable revenue and non-attributable revenue? No, we have no idea if that even is the same month over month. But these investments that we made in a resource, training her, we actually had some, at one point also gave a green light to bring on an intern so that our full-time hire could manage up and start to add strategy to how she was thinking through, not just executing every day, and that's been great. We talked about that. How much is this going to cost? What is this person going to do? It was a pretty quick decision. But because it wasn't a ton of money, but even there, what I think is still critical is that someone comes to the table with that analysis done that's thoughtful, and that they seek to justify any investment, whether it's $100,000 or $1 million or $1,000.Seth:It just gets people in the discipline habit of understanding that money is going to be invested or not across teams, and it's not ... there's not an infinite amount of it. Stephanie:That's very cool. Now that your social person is able to start managing up, what kind of tactics or strategies are they hoping to implement over the next couple of years? What are they saying they believe in, or they want to try or test out?Seth:Yeah. I think a big buzz word in social is influencer. One of the things I've said is, if Oprah came out and endorsed UrbanStems, I don't know if that would even help us because our website would probably crash. We'd be out of stock on inventory in the next 20 minutes, and we'd enrage all of our good customers who came back and sold out. So, we have to think through how we would even execute that, but the team is bullish that, that matters. So, we're trying to think through that. I certainly also believe in content. The team believes in that. So, expect the we'll invest more in content. It's no secret that video content outperforms static photo content. So, looking at that, but it's also no surprise to anyone that videos are a lot more expensive to make than taking photos.Seth:You have to figure out what your budget is. You have to still be able to test very scrappily. I still will always believe in that, some of the best content is always going to be UGC. Some of the best content is going to be filmed in an iPhone, or for suckers like me, Samsung Galaxies. It's about mixing that with the more professionally created content, figuring out where and when to spend bigger, both from a photography standpoint and from a video. For example, the team did a wonderful job. This Thanksgiving, we have a dedicated lining page, which features video for the first time on the site.Stephanie:Oh nice.Seth:I'm really excited about that, testing it and testing more of that. With everything digital, the best thing is that you can always AB test that. Even if you spent a ton of money on something, I still encourage you to AB test it, to ensure that it's working. If you want to AB tested at 80% with the video and 20% control without so that you get more out there, that's fine. It'll just take a little longer to get the results of that test.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. I appreciate you letting us look into the future with you and your team. I'm sure that you're probably like, ah, I don't want people bringing this up anymore. That's so three years ago. However, it came to my mind when you were talking about Oprah and if she were to endorse you guys and you could sell out, and their website will crash. It brings me back to, of course what happened in 2017 that I think a lot of people could learn from, who are listening, around, I think there was like a Valentine's day snafu where you had too many orders and the website maybe crashed or something. Tell me a little bit about that and what you guys have ... what actually happened, what are the details on it? I know you weren't there, but what are the details? What have you learned from it? And what do things look like today?Seth:Yeah. No, I wasn't, but I don't think that's the sort of important part of the story. I think, in three short words, we messed up. We did not fully understand how we were going to execute the holiday. It was unfortunate that it was on Valentine's day, which is one of these two days a year that everyone looks to flower companies to sort of solve their buying need, which is to get flowers delivered. We were better at marketing than we were at executing that year. We learned a lot. I think that that's the most important thing, which is we learned that we needed a more sophisticated plan. That plan needed to be backed by data. To be honest, this is why I came in. This is why Ajay asked me to come into the business, which was to help figure it out for the next year.Seth:The first thing I did was I talked to people. I got the stories. I started sharing those stories around to make sure that they matched with what people thought went wrong. I started to look at data, and data helped me craft a plan. One thing that I actually think I did really well is that we had the data and we had the plan, and we just kept going over the plan. I think that is one of those things that, for people who would like to move quickly, can infuriate you. It's infuriated me at times. The number of times that I think we had to go over the plan or that we went over it was well into the double digits, just reviewing and reviewing, but we were successful and it wasn't just that we fixed everything from the previous year.Seth:In fact, we had to make changes that had nothing to do with people making mistakes. We had just pushed too many orders into certain physical facilities than we could handle. Our tech had not been robustly tested to meet the peak needs by a combination of looking at data and incorporating feedback from people who had gone through it. We were able to create a plan that was, again, based in numbers and efficiency metrics, and a realistic execution, still stretched by all means. We did not pull back. But to the credit of Ajay, he brought me in, and he gave me the green light to bring in some additional resources, which I did. We did some new things. We delivered for the first time in the company's history via a third party parcel carrier that allowed us to take orders that we otherwise wouldn't have been able to take.Seth:We had an on-time rate of about 98% to 99%. So, it was a nice reversal from the previous year. The way we phrase it with the team is, it's three and a half years ago, so it's, we don't dwell on it. But we do remember it, and we remember it as a way of motivating ourselves to make sure that our plans have been vetted, thought through, are based in data and have been shared with the team well enough in advance so they feel confident in their ability to execute them.Stephanie:Yep. What are some of the biggest data points that you looked at? When you were coming in or when you reviewed what actually happened, what were some of the biggest things that stood out where you were like, oh, was it the website crashing because it was the tech stack? Was it the supply chain? What specific things were the biggest contributors that maybe any new company can learn from of like, oh, if I'm setting up a similar type business, I need to look for this, this and this. If Oprah decides to come out and give me a shout out.Seth:Yeah. And Oprah, if you're listening, we will still take the shout out.Stephanie:Yeah, send it our way.Seth:But I think the challenge was, when I got ... everyone thought it was everything. It was really important to help people compartmentalize. It actually brought me back to a course in business school. I feel like, in many respects, I was one of the only people, one of the only ones of my friends who actually learned something in business. I remember taking an operations course and it talked about a factory that made, I forget if it was chocolates or chairs, it almost doesn't matter, and they said it was an assembly line and it took a minute to make the first chocolate. The chocolate had to go through, it doesn't even matter, let's call it six steps that each took 10 seconds, and it said, how many chocolates can you make in an hour? I got it wrong.Seth:I said, well, you can make 60. It takes a minute to make each chocolate. It turns out that there were six, like I said, six steps, each were 10 seconds. So, you can actually make six a minute, or 360 an hour. My mind was blown. It was really cool to figure out how an assembly works, what throughput is. I went to a Chipotle just to observe it in action, to find out what the bottleneck was and to figure out actually how a company like Chipotle does an amazing job at lunchtime. It's actually the cashier who typically is the bottleneck. So, you can see they add an extra cashier. Sometimes it's the first person who has to do both your burrito and the meat. So, you'll see they have an extra person who just does the meat. If you ever want to understand operations one-on-one in action, go to a Chipotle at peak time.Stephanie:Oh, that's good. I'll be looking at police so differently now.Seth:What really I just had to understand, and what was clear to me is they hadn't really done that kind of analysis to look at throughput, how many orders can be packed out. We also have to ... people kept telling you what the bottleneck is. The bottleneck is basically where your business chokes, what's the slowest part of your operation. People kept telling me things that ... and then I would say, well, how long does it take to do this? And I would write down the answer, and the numbers they gave me did not match with it being a bottleneck, which either meant that it wasn't the bottleneck, or that it took a lot longer than what they thought.Seth:The key thing was keep digging, keep trying to understand, is it ... because at the end of the day, the math will be the truth that you can use. But if your assumption is based on faulty math, then it's just garbage math. So, you have to look at the operation in action and you have to understand, so for example, with us printing out these custom note cards, whereas it's the note that you wanted for your mother for Mother's Day, right? That's what makes every UrbanStems order unique, besides the fact that you get to pick the bouquet you want and the ad-ons that are specific to your order, which took a lot of technological build hardware and software, to be honest, but it's that note card.Seth:I was told, "This is our bottleneck," and I said, "Well, how long does it take to print a note card?" And they said, "Five seconds." I said, well, it takes a lot longer to pack out an order than five seconds. That can't be. But then I started to lean in, and it turns out that they would print 20 of these note cards at a time, and then they would organize these into a folder, and then they would put the folder away, and then they would bring the folder back out when they were ready to pack out. What was five seconds, when I did all the math, ended up being a minute, and you couldn't even do them one by one, like in the chocolate example, because you had to get 20 chocolates assembled at once. You had to wait for 20 of those chocolates to go down to the end of the assembly line before. So, if you ever got behind, the time to catch up was significant.Stephanie:Oh, wow. That's really Interesting, about like something where you're like, oh no, that's not the problem. Then being like, oh, actually your process is the biggest part of the problem.Seth:Exactly. This is a very cool evolution. People who have not been at the company for at least two years, don't understand. With a bottleneck, you have two solutions. You either make it more effective or you add resources to the bottleneck. The first year that's what we did. We had five of our most analytical people, five very smart people who just on Valentine's day helped us print them. As absurd as that sounds, that's what we did. We just overwhelmed the process with resources. This past year, the tech team and the supply chain team got together and they completely reinvented. Now, every single order is sent to a specific person's queue that ties to their physical desk, and there's a printer at every station and that printer prints out one note card at a time that's tied to that a specific order. Now, it takes five seconds to print an old card, and it is no longer a bottleneck.Stephanie:Yeah. That's great. It seems like there'd be a lot less room for things to get lost. I mean, if everything's in a folder and you're trying to sort through it, [crosstalk] maybe picking up the wrong notes and you'd be like, hey grandma, and be like, oh, this is the wrong note that got sent out. It seems a lot more. Yeah. You're not going to have any errors doing it this way now.Seth:Yeah. The error rate, both reported and for sure, actual declined. We also saw that our throughput overall went up by 50%, 60%, 70%, and we could train people on this new system much faster. Those five people that I mentioned that had to be in that room on Valentine's day now don't have to be in that room.Stephanie:Yep. That was very good reminders about bottlenecks. I think it's very encouraging for every new brand to kind of look into that and really dive deep. So, yeah, I love that example. All right. The couple of minutes left, let's jump over to the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Seth?Seth:I am ready.Stephanie:All right. We'll start with the hardest one first. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Seth:The one thing that'll have the biggest impact on ecommerce is FedEx and UPS.Stephanie:Okay. Tell me a bit more.Seth:Yeah. Their ability to grow and sustain their supply chains and deliver on time is going to be critical to, in the next 13 months, they're going to have two holiday seasons, and either a lot of happy customers or a lot of unhappy customers. It'll be really interesting, your 800 pound gorilla. Amazon is highly confident because they've largely disintermediated their over-reliance on UPS. In fact, FedEx and Amazon, they're divorced for the most part. I think that their ability to continue to shift to ecommerce to add Saturday and Sunday delivery nationwide to do FedEx, and UPS delivery to do ground deliveries next day, seven days a week, based on a previous day pickup, all of these things are going to either allow ecommerce to continue to blossom or hold it back. Also, what's very unclear is how much they're going to raise rates in January. Typical years call it 3% to 6%. There is a lot of concern that they could be above, and potentially well above that 6%, and what does that do to demand?Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, that's a really good answer. What one topic or thing do you wish you knew more about?Seth:One topic or a thing.Stephanie:[crosstalk] technology or ...Seth:I've been in and around physical product ecommerce businesses. I think getting more in the data and technology side is always the right ... that is always the future. I love being in consumer businesses. I love the ability to ask almost anyone about the product or service that I'm working with and trying to lead forward and getting their opinion and having that opinion matter. That's the joy and the challenge of ecommerce, but certainly getting deeper into data, getting deeper in technology is something I'm going to encourage anyone, especially anyone young, certainly what I'm going to get my kids into.Stephanie:Yep. I love that. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be?Seth:I think it would be about brands that do it right. I think that I so admire people who build iconic brands, and it goes back to this consumer side of things, but to me, it's looking at these revered brands and whether they are the Phil Knights, Nikes of the world, Reed Hastings and Netflix, or some lesser known smaller brands. I'm always so impressed with people who take the leap to do it. Those, especially who do it without raising significant amounts of capital and create something that just clicks and resonates with consumers, because I think we can all learn that. I find that I've been around companies that have done a nice mix of brand and execution, that have focused so much on execution. I think it's something that I'm good at, and I've been around other people that have been good at it. Maybe it's because of that, that I so admire the folks, those creative, just truly creative visionaries on the branding side.Stephanie:I love that. And who would you pick to bring on as your first guest?Seth:Who would I pick to bring on as my first guest? I guess, not that Reed Hastings would agree, but Netflix ...Stephanie:He might.Seth:Netflix so transformed and based on an industry that could have gotten there, had they seen it coming. In fact, I think at some point he had discussed with them with blockbuster buying out the business, and they dismissed him. I'm sure he has fabulous stories. I'm not so interested in actually the last three years where they've been a powerhouse. I'm really interested in those first years when he struggled, when he kept the faith when things were not going well, how he saw the future when others didn't, how he pivoted from CDs delivered, when he knew it was the time to digital and build something big and special, how he hired people in those early years and got them convinced it was going to be big and special. Those are the questions that are ... and/or now getting the best and the brightest is easy, given the company that they've built. But it's those early years that I'd be really excited to learn about.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, I love that. I think we have the same kind of passion, and you would probably like one of our other podcasts called the story, because it's about people like that. We did retastings Phil Knight, We do Elon Musk, and it talks about the early days, how they got started and then you guess their identity at the end, because you wouldn't actually all the things they went through to build the companies that they did. You have to check that out.Seth:Very good. I will.Stephanie:All right, Seth. Well, this has been a great interview. Where can people find out more about you and UrbanStems?Seth:Yeah, UrbanStems is the company name and it's also our website, so urbanstems.com will get you there. If you want, you can also reach out to me, seth.goldman@urbanstems. I'd be happy to chat with you. I'd be happy to provide you with a promo code on your first order. We love people enjoying flowers, and more importantly, we love people sending gratitude to people that they care about.Stephanie:Awesome. Love that. Thanks so much, Seth.Seth:Thank you so much, Stephanie. Bye.

The fact of that matter is that the healthcare system was not built with the consumer in mind. That is, until hims & hers came along. This three-year-old company has been making waves in the industry, and for good reason. Its platform has facilitated more than two million medical visits and is valued at more than $1.6 billion. And all of this in an industry that has been immune to disruption for decades. hims & hers is the first true consumer healthcare brand that, through its platform, creates an easy, transparent, and high-quality experience for all those frustrated with their current healthcare option. Its mission is to help people finally feel empowered to talk about and get treated for certain conditions, and Hilary Coles, the co-founder and VP of Merchandising for the company, is responsible for making that happen.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Hilary explains why humor really is the best medicine when it comes to marketing, and she talks about how brands should approach experimentation. Plus, she provides tips to anyone who is thinking about trying to disrupt a big industry, and why she thinks it’s a risk worth taking.Main Takeaways:Everything the Light Touches: Talking about certain things is uncomfortable — especially when it comes to your healthcare. But for a brand to make an impact, it has to have a message, reach into those uncomfortable places, and make it okay for those you’re trying to reach to talk about them too. By embracing humor and truth in marketing, you create an authenticity that is often missing and you open the door for your target consumers to feel empowered to take action.Social Experiments: Making experimentation and ideation a social process is one of the best ways to bring the most creative ideas to the table. When you invite everyone to contribute, and when you are honest with everyone about what ideas worked and which failed, you create an atmosphere that encourages risk-taking and you are more likely to experiment in channels or with opportunities your competitors are overlooking.But Why?: Having an endless curiosity and need to ask “why” is the best way to disrupt an industry, and also to keep improving your processes. Too often companies or entire industries fall back on doing things the way they have always been done. The company that comes in and consistently questions how and why things are done a certain way and then changes them is the one that consumers will begin to take notice of.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of mission.org. Today, I'm really excited to be chatting Hilary Coles, the co-founder at hims and hers. Hilary, welcome.Hilary:Thank you so much for having me.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm really excited. I think we're going to have such a good conversation and there's so many areas where we can take it. I was doing a bit of research, and there are so many case studies built around you guys. Did you know that?Hilary:I didn't actually know that. Is that true?Stephanie:Yeah, I found at least three and so many articles diving into your business model. So, there's a lot of content I want to cover, and maybe first we need to start with what is hims and hers?Hilary:hims and hers is really the first consumer health care brand, and what that means is that we prioritize the consumer and really thought through every aspect of the business in order to suit the consumer, in order to give them choice, in order to give them control, in order to give them transparency into how they take care of themselves because we thought it was way too hard to take care of yourself today and navigating the health care system is incredibly difficult. And that's really because it's never been built with the consumer in mind, and so everything we've done from the beginning has been really just to champion the consumer. And so, today hims and hers is a platform that allows you to treat everything from dermatological conditions like acne to sexual health and wellness, to metal health, to hair care, all conveniently from home, which after this year has never been more important.Stephanie:So, as a new customer, I can essentially get on there, have a virtual doctor's visit, maybe even get a prescription for something I need, and then even order it on your platform, like it's everything from start to finish? Am I thinking about that correctly?Hilary:Exactly. Everything happens on our platform, and the reason why we did that is so that we could ensure that from start to finish we were in control of the level of quality that you would experience as a consumer. So, from the moment you come on to our platform, you select what you're interested in, what your health care goals are, you are given education, you are given a direct relationship with a provider, you are given product options, and you are able to make that decision that's right for you. And then, you're able to skip going to the pharmacy, skip taking off work, finding child care, taking off time in your day to go see a doctor, and able to talk to a doctor from wherever you feel comfortable. And then, having that product shipped directly to you and managed by you, which is again, just totally revolutionary from the way we've thought about health care to date, which has never prioritized the customer's needs but has focused really on everyone else in the healthcare industry except for the patient.Stephanie:Yeah. When I was looking through it I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is what I've needed all my life." I've always thought everything with health care feels backwards and old school, and I'm like, "How have I not heard of this?" I mean, I'd heard of you guys before but I didn't know it was also for women.Hilary:Yeah, it's such a good point, and the reason why we developed hims and hers is because when we looked at our lives and the level of control and choice we have with with, you can choose a hundred different things to be delivered to your house in the next 20 minutes for lunch. You can choose your mode of transportation, you can choose what kind of couch to get delivered to your house. You can choose what kind of workout you're going to do today at whatever price you want, but when it came to your health care it was like this weird thing that you put off doing because it was so inconvenient. You never knew what it was going to cost. You were made to kind of go on a maze to figure out who's the right provider, are they covered by your insurance, how do you pick an insurance plan? And it's so unlike the rest of our world works today, and I think consumers are too smart for that and they expect better. And so, we really just developed something that fit into the rest of our lives.Stephanie:I love that. So, just so everyone knows the scale of where you guys are at, because I saw a lot of numbers from all my research, everything from evaluations, your revenue numbers, but I'd rather hear it from you and know it's accurate. Where are you guys today? What's your evaluation or what revenue numbers can you share just so everyone knows how big you are? Like, you're legit.Hilary:We're legit. So, in the past three years we've done well over two million medical visits, and when you think of a big company like Teladoc in this space, it took them 13 years to get to one million visits, so we've accomplished double that in three years. We are valued at 1.6 billion dollars.Stephanie:Billion, everyone.Hilary:Which we think there's so much more to do, because if you think about it, the health care industry is really the last trillion dollar industry that hasn't been disrupted. So, we really think this is just... It sounds like a big number, but it's just the really top top tip of the iceberg. The majority of our business is subscriptions, ongoing reoccurring revenue, and yeah. There's lots of excitement coming. We have more than a dozen conditions that we treat with almost 100 skus, so we've really... I think that's been a key differentiator for us in this industry as more and more people enter the D to C healthcare industry. When you look around at the landscape, so much of it is pretty niche and one condition focused, and what we've strived to do from our early days is be this umbrella company where you really can treat multiple conditions, you really can take care of yourself very practically on one simple to use platform. We're not expecting you to jump around.Stephanie:And that's great, it really is. It's like the future, it's what I've always wanted. So, I love talking about the early days of starting these companies, and especially with yours it feels like it's so intricate, especially on the back end. Probably not for the consumers who are like, "Oh, everything just works," but behind the scenes I'm just thinking about the partnerships that you're getting with the doctors, and then you got the products that you're selling and how to make everything work. I want to hear a little bit about how did you start it, what did you focus on first, and maybe what did you experience where you're like, "We would've done that differently if we knew what we knew now?"Hilary:Right. Hindsight is 20/20, of course, but we... Our first iteration into Hims was an MVP I think that we called club room at the time, and that was to learn how men were shopping for haircare products, and specifically hair loss products at the time. We explored funneling and promotions, we explored brand personas, and really how to talk to men. And we learned a lot about price points, we learned a lot about what men were looking for, and that was a really really valuable... We got enough signal really from that to have confidence that we were doing something differently with what is not hims and hers. And we knew a couple of things, we knew we would have to provide access to providers in every single state. So, by the way, that means setting up an entity in every single state, which is just a tremendous amount of work. There's nothing out of the box we could do so we had to build everything from scratch on the back end.Hilary:We needed to have proprietary products. Part of our goal and what we've continued to do is really blending both wellness products and prescription products and education, and so we had to create our own wellness products. So, I remember in the early days showing up to manufacturers in the middle of the country who looked at me like I was crazy and I was begging them to put our brand on the line and produce Minoxidil, which is generic Rogaine. And they basically said they felt bad for taking our money because this is an industry that hadn't shifted in decades, and what were we thinking, and there's no way this is going to work. And we were able to blow through what we had ordered from them in days, not months, and from there it was just kind of beyond. I think everything we processed from the beginning, or we prioritized from the beginning, was our brand. I think we knew that unlike 10, 15 years ago when you had all of these "disrupting" startups coming out your brand wasn't as important, but because the barrier to enter direct to consumer brands is so low these days with all the onslaughts of digital channels that you have, having a differentiating brand, having a point of view becomes so important and earning trust becomes so important.Hilary:And you need to do that, you need to have a deeply differentiated and personified brand today in a way that I think was not as urgently important 10 years ago. And so, that was the bet we took early on that really really paid off, as well. And [crosstalk 00:10:19]-Stephanie:You can definitely see that with all your marketing and branding, and people are eager to buy your products and you focused on a market, especially around men in the beginning, that I think wasn't being served well. I mean, you mentioned Rogaine and I'm thinking about the commercials back then of like just not very pleasant ones. I wouldn't want to buy that product based on the TV commercials I used to see around that, and it seems like you leaned into that and not only served the market but did it in a way that people were eager to even talk about it and have word of mouth.Hilary:Totally. I think the most interesting thing about our brand today, and especially in the early days, was that majority of the people coming to us for hair loss, for sexual wellness, for mental health, it's the first time they're ever treating these conditions, the first time they've trusted anyone with these conditions, and that's a big deal because it's not like you wake up one morning and you decide you're going to take action. It's usually on the heels of days and weeks and months and years of feeling unsure and feeling like it was something you had to hide in the back of your cabinet or didn't want to engage with, like the Rogaine example you just had. And so, that's really been the key unlock is that relationship we've been able to foster. And to this day, that remains my favorite compliment that we get as a business is, "Your brand empowered me. It made me believe in myself." That's really what we're getting at here, because the products exist, and for us it's about kind of slaying all the dragons of access and cost and barriers to make it easy for the customer but we can't walk you to the front door. We have to be on the journey with you and you have to believe that we're on that journey with you, and so that's really our mission at the end of the day.Stephanie:I love that. So, you just mentioned about the brand empowering your customers. How do you create that messaging, especially around topics that a lot of people don't want to talk about? How do you go about doing that in a way that has grown and seen the success that you all have?Hilary:I think one of my favorite quotes ever is that sunlight is the best disinfectant, because I think if you can't see it you can't talk about it. And so, that, from the very early days of fundraising, was a big eye opener for us because when we came into the room and we were talking about erectile dysfunction and hair loss, no one wanted to be the first to ask any questions about it. No one wanted to seem overly interested in it even, you don't want to be associated in it. And it wasn't until we changed tack and started using humor and started using numbers and saying, "Hey, every third person in this room will probably suffer from erectile dysfunction or hair loss." You need that provocation, that shock, that humor to remind ourselves that in a weird way, you're not special, like baldness doesn't... hair loss doesn't choose you, anxiety doesn't choose you. It happens and it's common, and if we're all in it together we can talk about it. We can find the education, the products, and the services to tackle it and get you feeling good.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. All the campaigns I was looking at were funny and I could definitely see it sparking engagement, like people like... I mean, I saw there was a urinal campaign that you guys did and there was a quote I think that you said-Hilary:Our urinal takeover.Stephanie:Yeah, you're like, "No one in the history of ballparks ever wanted to advertise in a urinal, but we saw it as a creative channel." Tell me, how do you even think of things that are funny like that? Maybe I'm just not a funny person because I'm like I would never think to do that, but that's great, or like your cactus, your erect cactus. You know, people look at that, they know what this is for, it's super funny.Hilary:Right. You can't deny... I think that was part of the beauty certainly the early campaigns where we did city takeovers with city takeovers urinals dominations we called them with the phallic cacti, because you can't deny that you know what it is. You instantly know what it is, and so it save you the rigmarole and dance of are we talking about this, what is this, I think it's this. And fundamentally, I think some of the bets we've taken with marketing channels that have been more on the creative side like the urinal dominations, like we've sponsored corn hole tournaments, and all sorts of things that people haven't necessarily tried before. It's because I think we have a really deep empathy for our consumers and we're thoughtful about where are they spending time, where are their eyeballs? I always joke with our team, like, if you try hard and believe in yourself, anything can be a billboard or a messaging opportunity for the company because we're...Hilary:You want to meet your customer where they are, and I think unlike a typical DNVB and D to D playbooks out there where you're on the same channels as everyone competing for the same eyeballs, we really are striving to be health care for the people, for all people, for anyone with a body, and to do that we have to get eyeballs everywhere. We can't just be on the traditional digital channels. We have to think outside the box. We have to be provocative. We have to shift the traditional ways of thinking.Stephanie:How do you go about encouraging your team to think creatively like that and to come up with new ideas? Is there a process that you guys have in place or something to have fun ideas rise to the top like that?Hilary:Our team is amazing, so they need very little encouragement, but I think what we've preserved since the early days of Andrew and I joking around on text message late at night or around a table is just what do you think is interesting? What do you think is funny? what are we not seeing? And so, from whether it's a customer service agent, whether it's someone on our creative team, whether it's someone on our analytics team, just what are you interested and what are you seeing? And I think as the team's gotten bigger it's gotten... it's been so interesting to learn all of these different perspectives and what people are into. Like what is happening is with gamers? What is happening with cooking trends, and how is that relevant and what does that mean about people today? I think we try not to be too precious with our own ideas, and I think Andrew and I are the first ones to say, "Oh, that didn't work. That's fine," and we very much internally socialize the things that didn't work as much as the things that did. And that ladders back up to the priority we place on testing and learning, and so I think because we remain flexible with that and have fun with that all in service of learning, it makes every single big campaign less do or die.Stephanie:Yeah, I like the idea of not being too precious with your ideas and being open to just testing and seeing what works. In the spirit of testing, what campaign did you launch, or your team launch, where you're like, "That's not going to work," and it actually did?Hilary:Oh my goodness, we have... There is a commercial we can find later, and it's still shown, and it is essentially just our full portfolio of the Hims products and the signature peach and pastel colors that we've become known for. And all of sudden, when we launched our company three years ago we launched with candles, which a lot of people made fun of us for but we wanted to really be extremely explicit about the fact that we were a wellness company as well as a health care company and we were doing something different. And so, we played on this idea of candles being something we were known for, loved for, and mocked for, and that whole campaign is somebody just lighting that candle in front of the portfolio of products.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Hilary:And we're like, "It's so simple. There's no way it's going to work," and it's been going for like a year and a half. It is far and away one of our most successful creatives.Stephanie:That's so funny. I've heard that same theme though around the things that you don't think will work actually end up working. I mean, especially we've been experimenting with different YouTube ads and just seeing what people connect with sometimes is a little out there our you're like, "Wait, why do people like this?" But that's why it's important to test and actually figure out what connects with people. Who knows, maybe in that candle commercial people are like, "Well, let me..." like, they're obviously going to look and see what's being the candle and analyzing it more than they probably would in any other commercial.Hilary:Right. You're competing with so much nowadays and I think there is a tendency sometimes to over complicate, to simply copy what other people are doing, and I think we've been pretty brave with what we're willing to test and keeping smart about that rather than having, you know, pouring millions of dollars into one solitary campaign, we're able to come up with several different iterations that are more appealing to more different groups of people. Which again, comes back to our mission of being for everyone and meeting you where you are.Stephanie:Yeah, I love that. I think going forward brands can learn a lot from your guys' campaigns because I think, especially the past couple of years, there's been a lot of censorship on how the brands can and should interact and what campaigns are okay or not, but I think really for that authenticity is going to be really important for the brands to actually come above the other ones and stand out by actually leaning into their goals and doing it in a way that they feel is best for their products and their customers and connecting with the people they need to.Hilary:That's totally right, and I think is one of the more exciting trends that I'm hoping we see more of in the coming years. I think, as I mentioned earlier, especially in the past five years, it became so easy to launch a company and as a result I think you saw a real copycat culture, a real everyone using the same kinds of design, a real same kind of brands and missions even, for a lack of a better word. And it became really hard to tell the difference between anybody, and I think where everyone's feet started being held to the fire is this year where there's been so much in the world happening and it's now becoming clear if you don't stand for something, or if you stand for the exact same thing as everybody else, you get lost in the shuffle. And I think that's really going to separate the brands that are here to stay from the brands that probably won't cut it, and it comes down to having that clear point of view. Because again, consumers are so smart and they know.Stephanie:Yeah, I think authenticity will always win and I would rather maybe be offended by a brand who's trying to do something where I remember them than just be like, "Oh, this is another brand saying that they're standing for the same thing as everyone else because they're probably being told that that's what they have to stand for." Those are the ones that I forget about versus the ones that are experimenting and trying and testing out messaging. That's the ones I'm excited to watch where they head.Hilary:Totally. I think that's where sometimes not saying anything is as powerful as saying something, and thinking about what do your customers really want from you? What are they coming to you for versus what you personally are excited about and what makes you sleep better at night? It's not about making you feel good, it's about serving your customer, and I think some brands get that twisted this year.Stephanie:Yeah, I completely agree. So, when it comes to... since we're diving pretty deep on marketing and brand voices and stuff, how do you think about measuring your campaigns and which ones are doing best? Like, I saw you partner with Snoop Dogg, which is awesome, like how do you measure a partnership like that versus your TV commercials and what's successful in that area?Hilary:I think the thing that has been the most interesting about our marketing approach is that on any given day we are in at least two dozen different channels, and we are testing within each of those channels. Again, it ladders up to this mission of being there for our consumer wherever they are, and so it's about not just having radio and podcasts and various audio, but it's what are you saying within each of those channels and does it make sense? Because you don't want to jar the customer out of what it is, and so, yes, the Snoop Dogg campaign was awesome for being well known and the J-Lo and A-Rod campaigns I think all make sense in certain contexts, but I think we keep a pretty broad playbook which allows us to really start the relationship off on the best possible foot with our consumer. Because I think at the end of the day the KPI that matters the most is NPS, and I think what's been really remarkable about hims and hers is that our NPS is 65, and for healthcare services the NPS of the whole rest of the industry is nine.Stephanie:That's what I was going to say, is it like five?Hilary:Yeah. So, we're talking about single digits, deeply unsatisfied people, deeply negative experiences, and we're talking about a huge exponential growth on that. And that's what we're really protective of and why I think a real reflection of what happens when you give consumers choice and control and transparency and kind of treat them like adults and know that giving them more information is not going to, if anything, going to increase their trust in their lifetime with you.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. How do you think about personalization, because healthcare just seems like such a tricky thing, and especially when you're talking about the NPS and developing that trust. What do you do, if you do at all, personalize when communicating with people so they're like, "Oh, yeah, this is just about our conversation. This isn't a generic message?"Hilary:Absolutely. I think personalization remains so important particularly in healthcare where you're used to being treated like a number, where you're used to being left behind and expected to sprint to keep up with just a basic level of treatment. And that's where we've been able to differentiate so much by having that end to end control and being totally vertically integrated as our consumer healthcare platform. And so, we spend a lot of time thinking about, within each of our respective categories, within each of our respective brands, what that consumer journey looks like and what the consumer segment within that consumer journey looks like. So, that end to end we know you're going to get checked in on at the right time to make sure that your skin is adapting well to your new prescription skin routine that you're on, so that you're being exposed to the most amount of information and the ability to chat to your personal provider whenever suits you and being there kind of one step ahead. I think that's the best lessons in hospitality that we've tried to bring into our business of anticipating the need before it happens, before you even think about it, and that's where our service has been super seamless.Stephanie:So, how are you anticipating that need? Because that is a really good example where I'm thinking about factors... It'd be so nice if they checked in on me a bit more because I'm also just lazy.Hilary:Right?Stephanie:And a lot of times I might need something but I just need a reminder, but I haven't seen any of the traditional models having a good method for doing that, that checks in in a way that's not annoying.Hilary:Absolutely. So, each category, each journey is heavily directed by an advisory group of the top medical professionals from all the best institutions across the country, and really getting that brain trust together within that specific category, so say using the skincare example, the top dermatologists in the country and walking through if you had a magic wand, what would the best possible treatment look like for a patient? What would that best possible experience look like? And then, we map out, if you could clone yourself 600 times as a doctor, what would you be doing, and then we go and we build that.Stephanie:Man, that's a really good lesson I think for any business model. It's kind of coming in... I mean, it is coming in with a beginner mindset and just saying, "Start from scratch. How should this work?" Doesn't matter if it can work or if we know how to make it work, what should it be doing right now? What is success, and then building towards that?Hilary:Yeah. I think that's really fundamentally why we've been so successful in a short period of time, is we've just asked why, because in so many, especially in established industries like health care, so much of it is just continuing on because that's the way things have always been done. And a lot of it was just us asking naively, "Why? Why do you do it that way? Why is it done that way? Could it be done this way?" And just having that endless capacity I think for curiosity, and I think the more we... When we first started working on the company, we had assumed there were, to be frank, adults in the room who had already figured this out and had already really tried to do their best possible job for the consumer. And the more we asked questions, the more it became clear nobody was doing this and wasn't an impossible task nearly, it was it just needed a different lens and some elbow grease I think.Stephanie:I can imagine you guys getting a lot of pushback and people kind of betting against you, especially in the early days around what you wanted to do.Hilary:Oh, definitely. I think, one, sure, disrupted [inaudible] industry and then do it using millennial beige color and a bunch of cacti. We were nobody's best friend's. I remember even my fiance saying in the early days, like, "Are you sure about the name Hims?" I wasn't 100%.Stephanie:And now it's like, "Well, yeah, obviously."Hilary:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:Very very cool. I could see there being a lot of room of having a great community, and maybe you guys already have that, because I'm thinking you're getting people to talk about topics that they maybe never would have otherwise, but you know everyone is on there googling their problems and you end up finding bad Reddit threads or, who the heck knows, whatever you stumble on, and you're trying to see, like, do other people have this issue? How are y'all approaching community and having people speak up and talk about and talk about their results and everything?Hilary:That's such a great question. That was a key motivation for us, is how you get people to stop doom spiraling and looking in the middle of the night for things... to ask about their health, because spoiler alert, anything you ask about your symptoms is going to lead to you're dying.Stephanie:Yeah, you're dead.Hilary:And it's scary and you're not empowered and you don't feel in control. And so, it was really like how do we make it so easy that even you would be willing to, just as easy as googling something, it's just that easy to go to our platform and that level of simplicity and directness of that relationship. And that was really, again, I think a key piece of having our brand be aspirational and safe and celebratory. And why we knew that that worked and why that resonated is in the first two weeks of sales of being open as a company, we had men submitting videos of themselves unboxing their hair loss kits, we had men submitting before and afters probably, and these are all on public channels like Instagram, tagging us in them. And these are things that historically were so private and had never been spoken about, and here they were sharing, tagging, telling us, "Please post. Please share my story. I feel so good and I had no idea it was possible, and everyone should know about this." And so, community from day one has been such a core piece of everything that we do in helping you feel like we're your hype person.Hilary:We're here for you, and I think people really responded to that idea of positivity. And I think that's kind of wild to think that there are brands with 100,000... a healthcare brand with 100,000 fans on Instagram who are-Stephanie:Yeah. No, that's wild.Hilary:... submitting and talking and sharing their, prior to us, deepest secrets. [crosstalk 00:33:34].Stephanie:Yeah, that's crazy to think about someone sharing before and after pictures without getting paid. I mean, that whole industry when you see those pictures you're like, "Is this real? Is this a real person that seems like they're kind of like me?" I mean, how did you encourage that word of mouth and encourage people to want to share that kind of stuff, other than just having a good product? Because that's obviously key, you have to have a good product that actually works, that people get excited about, but how do you encourage them to take that next step and actually put it on a platform that's public?Hilary:Yeah. I mean, truly we were surprised. We didn't think it would be a lever for us, especially in the beginning. We thought there was no way you were going to see the before and afters you were seeing on some of the other D to C companies or what you would normally see on a woman's brand, for example. When we started seeing it, we were like, "Oh, this opens up a whole new world," and so we built a community team that focuses on relationships with our existing consumer, and that can be everything from seeding them new products and seeing what they think of those products. It can be sharing their story for people who tell us that they want to be that inspiration for somebody else. And yeah, we've gotten to a point where we have 1,000 people in our community network who are just true fans of the brand that happened completely organic. And then-Stephanie:Very cool. So, what does the next maybe two or three years look like for hims and hers, and what kind of big best are you guys taking?Hilary:I think where we are really excited in the next couple of years is to continue to expand into more conditions in order to be of more service to the consumers on our platform, to provide entry points for new consumers, and to be able to manage with that high level of quality that consumers expect, more conditions. And so, for us what that means is entry into chronic conditions like fertility, like sleep, like cholesterol. That means expanding into broader portfolios into the main categories that we serve today, and that means continuing to expand into our wholesale partnerships like we have with Target which allow us to be more accessible, same day, more accessible in any single market to people who are in need of effective affordable products.Stephanie:That's very cool. What kind of advice do you have anyone who's looking to disrupt a big market? I think you're the perfect person to answer this, like it's doable, but what advice do you have?Hilary:It's doable. I think, again, just keeping asking why. I wouldn't assume that there's a reason why things are the way that it is. If you see something that isn't right, that doesn't reflect the world or reality that you want to live in, ask why. There's a good chance that it's a pinpoint for other people and it hasn't really been tacked effectively.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that, ask why. Is there any tech that you're betting on, tech trends, things that you're thinking you might be able to implement over the next couple of years that you're excited about?Hilary:I think we are super excited to continue to centralize information for our customers and help them make smarter decisions about their healthcare. When you look at, again, this digitally native generation who thinks of healthcare in a very different way from the way our parents think about healthcare... When you ask a gen-z or a millennial about how they think of taking care of themselves, it includes nutrition, it includes sleep, it includes mental health, it includes physical health. It includes a wholistic picture of flourishing, and I think using data to help coral all those decisions and provide them all at your fingertips so it's not just this discreet siloed experience, I think is very revolutionary and where we're excited to think about. And it's so different from how we all thought about healthcare before, which was you only really engage with it when something physical is broken and something wrong with you, otherwise you stay far far away. And so, I think we're motivated and excited about a future where you feel good because all of your decisions that affect how you feel are... You have options, you have information, and you have opportunity to help meet your goals.Stephanie:Yeah, that wholistic view of things is something I'm very excited about and can see you guys crushing, because right now, like I said, it does feel like so much of healthcare is siloed, and if I have an issue why isn't my diet taken into consideration? Why isn't how all my supplements interacting with each other, interacting with vitamins that might interact with whatever you're going to prescribe to me, like why isn't everything taken into account? So, to have like a dashboard where not only can your doctors talk easily and see what's going on wholistically, it seems like where the future needs to go and what everyone wants right now, and you guys are the first to tackle it.Hilary:Yeah, I think we firmly believe that the future needs to go the way our lifestyle and behavior preferences are going, and it's very cool, especially as we talk to the gen-z consumers who are like, "Yeah. No, of course, I never wanted it to be siloed and I fully reject a future where it is." And they're just... It's very cool to see that that's an expectation for the future, not a nice to have.Stephanie:Yeah, very inspiring. All right. So, let's move over to a quick lightning round, which is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Hilary?Hilary:All right. We'll see.Stephanie:All right, we'll the tougher question first. What one thing do you think is going to have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Hilary:I think big etailers entering the market and consolidating is going to have the biggest impact.Stephanie:Tell me a little bit more about that, that's interesting.Hilary:I think as we start to see, especially with the pandemic, we start to see Targets and Amazons and Walmarts start to be even more of a one stop shop than normal. As we're all trying to stay home and take care of our families and limit the amount of trips that we're making, I'm interested to see how those big companies start including different services, different products that where they wouldn't normally have been interested in in a year or two ago in order to serve more of the needs of the every day consumers, and where consumers will trust and not trust them, but for sure we're going to see some aggressive moves.Stephanie:That's a really good take about consolidation. I like that. What do you not understand today that you wish you did?Hilary:I don't really understand TikTok but I really wish I did.Stephanie:Someone just said that, I just did an interview about an hour ago and they said the exact same thing. Even they do really well on TikTok, their company does, she was like, "I don't understand it and it takes a long time to makes videos."Hilary:Exactly. I mean, I love it. I love the generation of content creators and I think it's really interesting that the shift is moving from influencing to actually creating, and I think it's certainly more democratic which is more in line with certainly the world that we believe in at hims and hers, but I would be lying if I said I came close to understanding it.Stephanie:We'll have to learn it together.Hilary:Yeah, deal.Stephanie:Because, yeah, I agree. What is your favorite book? It can be a business book or something where you're look, "I quote stuff from here. It's something that always come to mind when I'm making decisions." What's your favorite book?Hilary:My favorite book... Let me think, it changes all the time.Stephanie:Or you can have a couple.Hilary:I think the things I come back to frequently are The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, Innovator's Dilemma, and I think one that is earning a place on my shelf is the New Rules of Culture that Netflix just came out with.Stephanie:Oh, I haven't heard of that one. I'll have to check that one. Those first two are good ones. Very cool. All right, and the last one, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Hilary:If I were to have a podcast it would be focused on people who use their energy to uplift and amplify other people, and to me there's nobody who does that better than Michelle Obama.Stephanie:That's great. I would enjoy listening to that. We need to make that happen, Hilary.Hilary:[inaudible 00:47:34]. I'll reach out to her. I'll send her a DM right now and see where we end up.Stephanie:Yeah, just DM her. We'll have this in the works in like a week, no big deal.Hilary:Yeah. That's the Hims pipeline, for sure.Stephanie:All right, Hilary, well this has been such a pleasure having you on the show. I knew it was going to be a good interview and you exceeded all my expectations. So, thank you very much, and where can people find out more about you and hims and hers?Hilary:Definitely, there's always so much going on, and thank you for all the thoughtful questions. Forhers.com and forhims.com and on our Instagram @Hims @Hers are always the best ways to keep in touch with the latest and the greatest.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much for joining us.Hilary:Thanks, Stephanie.

At this point, it’s old hat to say that 2020 was a pretty wild year — countless industry experts have waxed poetic about the long-term implications of the acceleration of ecommerce we’ve seen this year.  But Joe Manning hasn’t just been talking about adapting in the face of change, he’s working to make it happen.Joe is the Chief Business Officer at Shipt, an on-demand delivery service that connects customers with thousands of grocery items and retail shops like Target, Best Buy, CVS, and national and local grocery stores -- and they do it all through a single mobile app. This year Joe has been on the front lines of scaling Shipt while still delivering not only physical products, but exceptional experiences to Shipt customers, employees, and partners. Earlier this year, Shipt doubled the size of its shopper network to meet the growing demand for grocery delivery. And now, as the holiday season is in full swing, the company has added 100,000 more shoppers to its network. Not every company will have to scale quite that quickly or extensively, but ecommerce companies that will thrive moving forward will be the ones that are ready to jump into new markets, pivot quickly, and reach beyond their comfort zone.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Joe explains what it takes to do just that, including how to maintain a culture of happy workers and customers as your company grows and changes. Plus, he looks at what is ahead this holiday season and why last-mile delivery is an area ripe for innovation.  Main Takeaways:Super Market Sweep – When entering new markets, researching the dynamics of where you are expanding is a critical step. No two markets are the same, and each new market will require investments in different areas. Taking the time to get to know who your customers might be and what their needs are will provide you with a better idea of where you should invest your resources.Happy Employee, Happy Customer – Even if you are employing mostly gig workers, helping to build a good culture and work environment should still be at the core of your business strategy. When workers feel supported and connected, they in turn will deliver better customer experiences, which impacts the bottom line.Choose Your Own Adventure – The future of ecommerce is all about providing choice, personalization, and bringing the best of the in-store experience online. Companies that learn how to capitalize on the unique needs of every customer through gathering data, implementing technology and deploying resources — whether it’s last-mile delivery, seamless returns, or personalized shopping suggestions —  will lead the industry.Tech Talk – There will be more tech brought into the ecommerce experience, especially as it relates to grocery shopping. From barcode scanning, to robot shoppers, to maps to help customers navigate the aisles in-store, there is a lot coming down the pike.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, and welcome back to the number one ecommerce podcast. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Joe Manning, the Chief Business Officer at Shipt. Joe, welcome to the show.Joe:Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you too. How many podcasts have you done so far? You seem like a good veteran.Joe:This is my first.Stephanie:Ooh, really? Oh, this will be fun then. I love having people on for the first time.Joe:Cool.Stephanie:So before we dive into Shipt, I was hoping you could kind of touch on your background at Starbucks because I saw that you worked there, I think, for over 10 years. And I want to hear what you did there, your role and some of your learnings that you got from there.Joe:Absolutely. So, I had the opportunity to work for 10 years at Starbucks. Starbucks was an amazing company. And one of the things that I really loved about what Starbucks did, and does, and how that applies to Shipt, Starbucks is very focused on the human connection between the barista and the customer. And they're great at leveraging technology. But as an enabler for a human connection. And I think at Shipt, we're trying to do very much ... We are doing very much the same thing. We are all about creating great connections between shoppers and customers, and we're a people-first organization. And we recognize the technology is a great enabler for that. But it is about the human connection.Joe:And so when I was at Starbucks, I worked in a couple of different spots. One area was the licensed stores business, which is the store inside a store. So, if you go into a Target or an airport, that business model I worked with those retailers to really build out those businesses. And then in addition to that, I spent a few years on the CPG business, which is the coffee and the aisle at the grocery stores. And that retailers and I led the business development area for that for a few years as well. And as I said, it was a great experience and the commitment to partnerships and the human connection was really impactful. And really, I think, gave me great insights to bring to Shipt as we started to build out the Shipt business.Stephanie:That's great. So what's one of your favorite memories or stories when you were working at Starbucks and trying to get Starbucks within the stores, or getting it on those supermarket shelves? What do you have a fond memory of or a funny story from your days there?Joe:Well, I'd say, I think one of the pieces that we really focused a lot on the Starbucks cafe experiences is very unique. They take a lot of pride in that customer experience. And so it was exciting when we would bring the stories to the retailers about how to operate at Starbucks or what the brand should be within the cafe. And we started to hear where retailers were then using the same terminology that Starbucks had been using. So, it was really fun when we started to hear them repeat back to us the words and the phrases that we had used, which really signal to us that it was going to be a great partnership, that they really understood what we were trying to accomplish. And that they were embracing that for their own business purposes, which was great.Joe:So coffee is at the core of everything Starbucks does. And I had an opportunity to go to a coffee farm in Costa Rica. And I got to plant a coffee tree and connect with all the farmers, or a lot of the different farms in Costa Rica where we sourced or Starbucks sourced coffee. And it was just really inspirational. I mean, it was fun to do for sure, but hearing the stories from the farmers about how their lives have changed because of their opportunities to partner with Starbucks was really inspirational and really made us feel good that we were making a difference around the world, not just creating great coffee or creating great experiences in the cafes.Stephanie:That sounds like a really good life-changing trip. Very cool. So what had you go over to Shipt? What led you to Shipt?Joe:So in about end of 2015, 2016, everything in Northern California was focused on the gig economy. Airbnb was growing, Uber was growing, and grocery delivery was starting to grow. And I don't know, about 20 years before then, there had been a grocery delivery company called Webvan that had had some success, but then it did not last. And I had been working with grocers, and it really felt like the time was right for grocery delivery to really kind of flourish. And I started looking around at different gig economy delivery companies, and I came across Shipt and Shipt was a small company. It was headquartered out of Birmingham, Alabama still is. And the founder was talking about how the quality of the shoppers and the personal experiences between the shoppers and the customers where was the competitive advantage that Shipt was going to capitalize on.Joe:And I really thought that that really resonated with me. I do really believe people have a personal connection to the food that they consume, the foods that they have in their homes, and creating that model. And it was different than what a lot of other companies are talking about. A lot of other companies were talking about the technology, and how technology was so important, and it was changing the landscape. And again, technology is important, but I really love the way Shipt talked about the personal connection, and the quality of the shoppers, and how that was the area where Shipt was going to invest, and it was going to win.Joe:And then when I met with the founder and I met with the company, the culture was just phenomenal, and it still is today. Everybody is passionate about the mission for Shipt and really focused on doing right, making a difference in the communities, passionate about building the business, but they recognize that it's really about helping people. And if we do that, then the business results will follow.Stephanie:I love the fact that you guys are so focused on giving a good quality shopper that I can feel a connection with. Because so often, when I order from certain companies, I'll get things like an avocado that's so soft. I'm like, "Who would get this? I would never pick an avocado this soft. Or I would never pick tomatoes with fuzz on them. You obviously do not care about my groceries." So, I feel a very close connection to having someone who ... A shopper that is looking out for my best interest, and actually picking things that I want, and not just being like, "Ah, there's five avocados, throw them in a bag, or they're fine."Joe:Well, that's exactly right. And that's what we hear from customers too. It's again, produce is tough to pick. And we put a lot of effort into supporting our shoppers so that they can get the right produce. And even the product is set up so that when we ordered bananas, we order a couple of green and then three yellow because we know we're not going to consume them fast enough. And our shoppers are graded, selecting that for us, and we get what we want. And it really is impactful because getting products that you don't want or that aren't going to work for you defeats the whole value proposition and the convenience of grocery delivery.Stephanie:So tell me a bit about how Shipt has changed over this past year because it seems like ... I mean, especially with grocery delivery, people really just had to rip up their plans, and start over, and be like, "This is the new world. Now I need to figure out how I'm going to do shipping." And everything seems so hard when it comes to grocery delivery instead of like Amazon, where they're all on routes, and they can deliver 60 things in a day versus a grocery delivery just feels so one-to-one. So tell me, what kind of shakeups have you guys seen at Shipt, and what are you doing to tackle them?Joe:This year has been unreal and, obviously, unexpected. And one of the first things that we did is we ramped up our shopper network. We doubled the size of our shopper network early when COVID had spiked, and we knew demand was growing, and we knew people were just desirous of getting products delivered. And so, we wanted to be able to support as many customers as possible. So we invested a lot to ramp up the shopper network. And even as we've gotten into holiday now, we're going to add another hundred ... We are adding another 150,000 shoppers this holiday season. And so, building up the shopper network was first and foremost and what we need to do to support the demand. But then, in addition to that, we worked really closely with a lot of grocers and a lot of retailers to help them succeed in this space.Joe:And to your point, it's a complicated model. And as you said, it's a one-to-one model. So there isn't the ability to drive around, for numerous routes all day long, you really have to put the care and effort into each individual order. And the order sizes are 25 to 30 items in the basket. And so we've worked a lot with retailers, not only to enable them on the Shipt marketplace to reach more customers. But we invested a lot in our last-mile delivery business, which we call Shipt Driven, which has really helped a lot of groceries. And a lot of retailers extend their curbside program to last-mile delivery. And that's really been impactful certainly through COVID. And we're seeing it even more so now during the holiday when again, there's a little bit more of a COVID spike. But then, just during the holidays, every retailer is trying to put together the pieces to support their customers and enable them to get the products they want in a way that works for the customer.Stephanie:Are you also helping advise some of these retail partners around coming up with the economics to make it work? Because it seems like a big Safeway has a very different model and how to get scale and efficiencies than a local grocery might have. Are you working with them to be like, here's what I see works? Here's how to make the model work for you guys.Joe:Absolutely. And you're right. I mean, we work with a lot of awesome regional grocers. And to your point, they don't have the scale of some of the national grocers. And so, in putting our programs together, we work closely with them to make sure that not only is it a good experience for the customer, but that it's economically beneficial and profitable business for the retailer. And we'll do that in a couple of ways. We'll certainly work with them on the technology and the integration to manage that so that it's as cost-effective where they get the best return on investment that they can. But in addition, we'll create marketing programs together. We'll do merchandising programs together to add items to the basket. And then, we'll collaborate on operations efficiencies so that we can pull out costs from the system so that it can be a profitable endeavor for them.Stephanie:So earlier, you were mentioning how you scaled up your shopper network. I think you said 100,000 shoppers, right?Joe:150,000 in holiday. And it was as a 100,000 earlier in the year. So 250,000, over the last six months or so.Stephanie:I mean, that's a crazy number, especially if you're trying to keep quality high. So how did you all go about hiring those shoppers? I mean, even finding that many people and making sure that they're going to be the quality shoppers that you want. How did you go about scaling like that?Joe:Part of what we did was implemented some enhancements to our recruiting process so that we were able to move through applicants much more quickly and thoughtfully, but while still ensuring we're getting the great quality candidates.Joe:We also invested a lot, as you would imagine in sourcing applicants, but we also worked with a lot of retailers back in the spring. There were a lot of retailers who were shutting down stores. And so, both our partners, as well as other retailers. We partnered with them to enable their employees who were looking for work to get fast-tracked through the Shipt application process so that if they wanted to pick up some Shipt shopping opportunities, they could, and they were great partners with whom we worked. And we got a lot of great applicants through that.Joe:And then another piece that we did ... Doing the first shop can be intimidating for folks if they've never done it before. And so, we have a lot of resources available for shoppers to access. And we continue to build on those, especially around how to enable the first shop. Because once you do a shop or two, you get into a rhythm, and you feel good about it. But it takes a little encouragement sometimes to do that first shop. So we put in resources to really make it as easy as possible for our shoppers to get out there and do the first shop.Stephanie:That does seem kind of scary doing that first one. So, I mean, how do you think about onboarding people? Did you have to set up all-new systems for all these new people? Did you have to change a bunch of things to scale that?Joe:Fortunately, we had the systems in place and in part because Shipt has been expanding rapidly since 2016. And even in, I think it was 2018; we were launching three to four markets a week for a good portion of the year. So, we had really good systems in place for recruiting shoppers building the network. And so, it was really more of just kind of amplifying that so that we could go even quicker during this period of time as opposed to having to build out new systems.Stephanie:Got it. So when you are going into these new markets, and you're launching quickly, what are some of the biggest issues that you encounter when you're going into the new markets?Joe:So new markets they're exciting, but they can be challenging. And one of the great things is the market dynamics differ. Launching in a New York City is different than Savannah, Georgia, for instance. And so, one of the pieces that we do is, when we go into markets, we'll spend time there to really understand the market dynamics so that we're thoughtful about our investments. Not only in how to recruit the shoppers to succeed in that market, but how to tailor our messaging so that it resonates with potential customers and that we're knowledgeable about the markets. And we've built out a market operations team that works and serves in all the different markets in which we operate so that we have the local knowledge that we can tap into.Joe:But one of the things that is super exciting as we launched markets is, we will do a market launch gathering a couple of days before. And then the night before, we launched the market, and the intent there is to get together with shoppers, to engage with them. So, we understand how they're feeling about launching this market and supporting us. We'll partner with the retailers in those markets with whom we'll be working. And it's really a great opportunity. It's a celebration of sorts. There's a great opportunity to connect with the shoppers and really help them better understand what Shipt is all about. Help them understand the retailers with whom we're working, and to get them excited about launching the market. And then back to the Shipt culture, part of what happens is there's just a whole group of folks who are working through the night to make sure the launch goes off properly. They're in the market for the next couple of days, picking up orders if we need to, troubleshooting if anything happens.Joe:And again, it's a celebration, it's a lot of work, but it's really exciting. And listening and engaging with the shoppers is really fun because you really get to understand who they are as people. And again, how enabling these jobs is really kind of making a difference in the communities in which we operate.Stephanie:It seems like a really good way to also build a community among those shoppers where they could potentially get to know each other, talk about best practices. I mean, do you cultivate the community of shoppers so they can kind of have their own little network? Can you talk to me-Joe:Absolutely. You're exactly right. We support the shoppers, and through various Facebook lounges, there are shopper communities. But you're right. The shoppers build such an amazing community amongst themselves. And it's great because they share best practices. They share tips. They're great resources for new shoppers who again maybe are a little bit hesitant or uncertain about how to operate. And then they celebrate with each other. And there's been instances in which there'd be a surprise party at a particular store because a shopper is just on their 5,000 shops or something like that. And we see the pictures of it and you see the shoppers. They're just so excited for each other, and they really do support each other.Joe:And they recognize that the stronger the community they build, the better the customer experiences are going to be, which is going to drive more volume, which is going to be supportive for everybody. And it's really exciting to watch. And we do think it's something unique that we've helped create as what we've seen with other gig economy companies. They don't put the same effort into supporting their shoppers or their gig economy workers. And we do think it's a unique advantage that we have.Stephanie:And I think that's a really good lesson for gig economy type of employers because I think a lot of people who do that work aren't really celebrated. And you don't see the person being really proud to be working on that because I think the company is not cultivating a community where people can be excited to actually showcase the brand and say, "This is what I do." I mean, I think about shoppers right now. You wouldn't know looking around Whole Foods or something, who maybe is a shopper, who's not, they're not wearing a shirt. They're not walking around proud for the majority of shoppers or even delivery drivers or anything like that. And I think that the moment that you start incorporating people to be proud of their job like that, and wanting to celebrate the other people in that network and community, you're only going to scale quicker and also build a good experience for everyone.Joe:Totally agree. Totally agree. And that's I think too often, some of the technology companies look at the gig economy worker as a cost. And we look at it the other way. We celebrate them, they're a phenomenal brand representation, and they represent our brand, and they represent the retailers with whom we work. And so, the more they feel good about what they're doing, the more we can help support them to do a great job. Often, it'll show up in the customer experience, and that's so hugely important. And so, we are excited about that, and we do provide Shipt Swag, let's call it because-Stephanie:It actually sounds better.Joe:For sure, the shoppers wanted it. And it's great. And again, I mean, it's brand building, but it's really more ... It speaks to how excited they are about what they're doing. And then the stories we hear from the shoppers, they feel like they're making a difference in people's lives. And that's invaluable to growing and driving the business. And so, we're excited about that.Stephanie:I think people view ... I mean, at least out in Silicon Valley ... And you probably know this Joe, since you lived out here. But swag being a thing of like, "Oh, you get so much of it." Employees don't even want that anymore. Don't spend money; it's a waste. They just throw it away or whatever. But I think they aren't thinking about the rest of the country who actually still celebrates a great t-shirt or hoodie and how important that is to them. And that's still a good technique to keep your employees engaged and excited to get something great.Joe:Absolutely. Absolutely.Stephanie:So let's talk a bit about customer acquisition. I saw a few articles where you were giving Shipt, I think, memberships to the elderly for free, which I was like, "Wow, that is genius." Because these are people who maybe wouldn't have engaged with grocery delivery ever before, but it's a good way to not only help them right now but also have a long time customer, even when COVID and everything's done. So how do you think about growing your customer base, getting on their radar, people who maybe would never find you organically?Joe:And so, one of the things that came out through COVID, there were a lot of people who tried grocery delivery for the first time. And we saw a large increase in the senior population as well. And it makes sense there may be a little less or a little reluctant to go out to the stores. And so, from that, we began talking to different agencies across the country who support the senior population. As well as talking to some healthcare entities and talking about how do we work together to build awareness about grocery delivery, make it easy for folks to get grocery delivery, support them economically? And so, that's been an area that we are continuing to invest in because we're seeing good results. And again, we know it makes a difference in the community, and the feedback we've gotten from the agencies and the senior population has been phenomenal.Joe:In addition to that, I mean, again, desire for grocery delivery has skyrocketed this year. Previously, Shipt was a membership only option you had to buy and an annual membership. During this year, we expanded to offer a pay per order option. And then you can also one order, or you can buy passes and get multiple orders. But we did that because, again, we knew people wanted to try the service. They weren't certain that it was for them, and either they wanted to try it because they were in a need state for it or because it was just new to them. But by enabling the PPO option, we have greatly expanded the number of customers that we're reaching. And it's really been, again, it gets back to supporting customers in a way, where they are today. And sell by providing the individual orders or the passes we've greatly increased the number of customers that are accessing the Shipt service.Stephanie:So how did you think about retention when it comes to ... I mean, I think that's great to be able to allow someone to pay for order. I know that would be something I would do. Is like try it at once and if it works well, maybe do the subscription, or maybe just keep paying for order. But how did you think about retaining someone who might just try it out and then forget how do you keep that customer around for the longterm?Joe:Absolutely. And with our members, the usage and the retention is phenomenal, and it makes sense. They've committed to the membership with the PPO customers. We are very focused on connecting with them and engaging with them so that we're giving them multiple opportunities to use this service several times. What we've found is using the service several times, it starts to become part of your shopping pattern. And so, part of what we do is we continue to connect, to communicate with those customers to make it worthwhile for them to try it a second or a third time if they haven't.Joe:And what we've seen, we've been very pleased. What we've seen is the transition from PPO to either multiple passes or Shipt Everyday, which is our annual membership, has been very good. And what we do find is as they use the service a couple of times, the quality of the service they're very pleased with. And so that gets them to kind of continue. But to your point, we're absolutely focused on how do we continue to connect and communicate with them so that they aren't one-time customers, but they become a much bigger part of connecting with us.Stephanie:So this past year, I'm sure you guys have noticed customers coming to you from many different channels. Like new channels are popping up to tax, not very big. I mean, where have you seen your new customers coming from, and how are you also trying to differentiate yourself from all the other competitors right now? Because I'm thinking, if I'm a customer, and I'm scrambling, like, "I need eggs." I'm just going to go on there and be like, "Okay, either I can just go on Amazon, because I already have a Prime account or let me just try, Instacart or whatever. How do you make sure to separate yourself, and really show your value, and also get on new and different channels, and finding customers in new ways where maybe other brands aren't doing that?Joe:We think the quality of the experience that we provide continues to be our competitive differentiation, and the quality of our shoppers is far and away superior to others in the market. We've always been very good at digital marketing, and we continue to invest there. We've also done quite a fair number of social media campaigns that have created different avenues and exposed us to different customer demographics that have been really beneficial. And then we've also leaned in more to traditional marketing as, particularly for the grocery space; we find that to be an effective channel. And so, in working with our grocers and exploring traditional media, we've seen some very good results with that. And so, it's really quite a credit cross-section of investments across various channels. But we're seeing good success across all the different channels in which we invest.Stephanie:Cool. I could see there being some fun campaigns with just an image of a dirty little brown banana and being like, "Did you just get this delivered to you? Come on over to Shipt. It'll never happen."Joe:Absolutely. And one of the campaigns we did, we talked about again the quality of our shoppers. And there were fun little snippets of how the shoppers will go above and beyond to get you the right product. And I think there was a version of it was tongue in cheek. But a shopper going into a lake to make sure you're getting fresh fish or diving into the freezer at the grocery store to get you the right product. And really trying to capitalize on the quality of the shopper is really beneficial because you want to get the products that you want, and not have somebody who's just focused on trying to get in and out of the store as quickly as possible, and throwing whatever in the bag to deliver it to you.Stephanie:So, with the holidays coming, you hear a lot right now with ecommerce about there's going to be a ton more demand for shipping. Things are going to get held up. How are you guys approaching the holiday season right now since you don't only do grocery, you do other things as well?Joe:That's right. And so, as we said earlier, ramped up the shopper network so that we can continue to support the increased demand. One of the areas where we've invested a lot in 2020 is in our last-mile delivery, so, Shipt Driven. And that's a program where a customer will actually place an order of the retailer's property or ecommerce program, and our shopper will arrive at the store and pick up the order and drive it to the customer's home. So it's basically extending BOPUS to last-mile delivery. And that business has skyrocketed this year. And we've got a great lineup of retailers that go beyond just the grocery side. So, we work with Bed Bath & Beyond, and Best Buy, and CVS, and Office Depot.Joe:And one of the things we're doing closely, we work closely with those retailers. We are managing, or we're partnering on forecasting so that we understand not only holistically what kind of volume we're thinking there's going to be, but even down to the store level because we'll make sure that we're hiring the right shop. Not just the right number of shoppers, but the right shoppers in the right locations. And then in addition, we are really focused between both the driven business and the marketplace on communicating that you can get products delivered the same day.Joe:And I think particularly in the next couple of weeks as other services are going to take longer to get products, we're going to communicate to customers that whatever product you're looking for, you can get it that day and at the last minute. Gifting ideas and through the holiday, ensuring that people are getting the products before the holiday arrives is a big opportunity that we're going to focus on from a Shipt marketplace standpoint. But also in partnership with our retailers on the last mile piece, because we can enable same-day delivery for those retailers as well.Stephanie:That seems like a really good opportunity there. And so many people are trying to figure out that last-mile delivery. What are some of the hiccups you encountered when setting that up? Because that once again seems like a very hard problem to solve, starting to work with all different kinds of retailers and solving that problem for them.Joe:So, fortunately, we've got such a great network of shoppers that on our side for the logistics that's the foundation is in place. I think what we find with retailers is they're standing that up, and how we work with them. Fulfillment costs can be daunting. And particularly on the last mile piece, the retailer needs to be prepared to collect those orders and ship those orders so that we can then drive at the last mile. So, we work with them to try to help them think through how to forecast and then how to plan for that fulfillment piece because that is an area that we have experience in. But in this model, they're going to be managing that. So that's one piece.Joe:And then, working with them on the operations and the handoff, it's not difficult, but we do put effort in there. Their store associates need to know who Shipt is, and why we're showing up at the store, and collaborating on how we connect with the customer to ensure that we're communicating effectively with the customer. Both on when is the order ready, when we're picking it up, when it will be dropped off, and if for some reason there are returns or other items that we need to communicate, setting up that structure so that we're all communicating effectively. So, that is a great customer experience.Stephanie:So you mentioned forecasting a couple of times. And you share those plans with the retailers to also help them plan for inventory, and like you said, fulfillment and everything. Is that a pretty standard process, or does every retailer in market ... Is everyone having a different kind of forecast or a training procedure to work through to be prepared this year?Joe:Yeah. So, we do collaborate with retailers, and we'll let them know what kind of volume we're expecting, and they'll share with us as well so that we can do what we can to manage inventory positions. Every retailer has their own process for that, but we have a dedicated team. We call it the Partner Success Team. They're phenomenal, and they work closely. Every retailer gets a dedicated team that supports them. And again, I think it's an area where we've invested more than a lot of other companies because these retail partnerships are so hugely important that we want to make sure they're getting the support that they need.Joe:And the feedback we've gotten from the retailers is that far and away, our commitment to details or thoroughness, and our communication exceeds what they see with other partners that they have. But on the forecasting, we'll work closely with them. We'll communicate the numbers that we're seeing. They'll share what they're seeing, and we'll review it, certainly right now on a weekly basis because if there's going to be spikes in demand, we want to be prepared for that so that we can create great customer experiences.Stephanie:That'll be interesting to see what happens this holiday season. So, where do you see the future of app-based delivery headed? What are you all planning for?Joe:So, everything we see through the pandemic, grocery delivery is certainly going to continue to be a huge part of the grocery industry. And I was thinking about there's in 2016, a lot of people in the grocery space didn't think customers would ever really embrace ecommerce that they needed to be in the store. They needed to see the produce they needed to choose it for themselves. And since 2016, so many things have changed. And so, grocery commerce is still going to be a huge portion of the business. I think projections are 2025. There'll be no more than 20% of the business. So we don't think I don't see anything changing there.Joe:The other ... But in addition, and we do work with retailers outside of the grocery space. What I think the pandemic has created is, retailers are building out a broad ecosystem of ecommerce solutions for the customers. They're recognizing that customers are going to want to interact with them and their products in different ways. And they want to let the customer choose how they want to get the products. And whether that's a third-party marketplace like Shipt, or if they want to do pickup, or having the retailers enable last-mile delivery through their own ecommerce programs. That, to us, feels like the winning strategy. That's what we're seeing, the retailers who are creating multiple options in allowing the customer to choose. Those are the ones that appear to be gaining a share and taking more of the business in the market. And that's where we see the future going.Stephanie:I've heard that quite a few times where the market is headed to where the consumers now know that there's options and they should have all the options and it needs to be the best option that they get to choose. And that wasn't something that even a year or two ago was something that may be a lot of consumers expected. So, I think that's a fun place where it's headed, though.Joe:Yeah, I agree. And I think that's it. I think awareness has grown so much so; customers are way more aware right now. And like everything else, they want to choose. It's the same if you go into a store, into a category. There's lots of options because consumers want to have the right to choose what they want. And again, I think the pandemic has kind of accelerated that mindset a little bit. Particularly as awareness has grown so much.Stephanie:So what kind of tech advancements are you all most excited about, or what tech enablements are helping your business the most right now?Joe:I think, again, I'll talk a little bit about grocery. But it's consumers want the ecommerce experience that's convenient and fast, and they want it to replicate their experiences in the store in the good ways. And so, some of the pieces that we're excited about substitutions, is a big portion of the shopping experience. It's about 76% of orders will have an item that's not available in the store. And so, substitution is an option there for the customer. So, we're enabling proactive substitutions to make that as seamless as possible. And we know it resonates because again, the customer wants to get the products and they want ... If you think if you're in the aisle, I can make a choice there because I'm looking across it. So how do we bring that to life through the ecommerce experience?Joe:And so we've enabled some features there, and we'll continue to build on that savings and loyalty programs continue to be a big portion. We look to integrate in with retailers' loyalty programs as much as possible. We know the consumers like that. And they want to get rewarded for making the purchase, whether it's inside the store or through Shipt. And so we're bringing that to life. And the other piece is continuing to find ways to enable exploration through ecommerce, it's still the early stage, but if you think about all the different touchpoints inside a store in which a retailer can speak to a customer, how do we bring that to life through ecommerce.Joe:And then the extension of that is personalization, especially in the food space, everybody's eating habits are very different. And so, how do we continue to capitalize on personalization so that the way my interaction in the app is different than yours based on my preferences? And how do we gather those preferences? But then also, continue to enable that, so that I'm getting access or information about the products that are most relevant to me. So, I think from a customer experience those are some of the areas that we're really excited about.Stephanie:Cool. It seems like imagery too, is, such an important piece of it. I know when I've ordered food before, if they ... I mean, why I go to the grocery store is so I can maybe look around and be like, "Oh, I didn't know I wanted that goat cheese and red wine type of thing. But it's so beautiful looking, and it's very enticing. I'm going to get it." And I think that's something where if it was in an app and it showed it right next to something, I would right away probably add to cart. But sometimes, it feels like that's still lacking of having the right imagery and being able to showcase it in a way that really makes me want it just like I would in the store.Joe:Totally. That's right. I mean, and image coverage is not where it needs to be. And again, part of it is for a lot of the industry they weren't really built for ecommerce. And so, they're moving quickly to enable elements like that, but you're right. I mean, that's such a huge opportunity. And then, even I think with the patterns that may be the pandemic have created there's a lot more eating at home. So how do you continue to find variety and give consumers various options that fit in with what they want, but they may not be thinking about on their own? And I think that will continue to be a bigger opportunity. And I think that'll last post-pandemic as well.Stephanie:Do you know what I want? I want a surprise me button. I want my shopper to know me so well where I'm just like, "Here's $3, surprise me with something." Because that's why you go to the grocery store. Sometimes, you feel like, "Oh, I'm pleasantly surprised by what I just spent on like ..." Can my shopper do that for me?Joe:Totally, absolutely. And so, you should try it out. We have a special request portion of our product when ... So you can ... If for some reason you're not finding a product that you need, or if you have a special request, you can put that in. And so, you absolutely should. And I think the shoppers would love that. They totally enjoy that. And I mean, we've got two dogs, and there's a handful of shoppers that we see regularly, and the dogs love when the shopper pulls up because they know that food is coming, which they're excited about. But also, the shoppers have multiple times picked up a little treat that they've seen for the dogs. Because they just think it's fun. And so, you absolutely should test that out.Stephanie:That's fun. And what about things like personal barcode shopping and things like that, or ways to make the shoppers more efficient? But then you have to partner with retailers to enable that. Are there any technologies in that area that you guys are exploring right now?Joe:Yes. And so, creating the efficiencies is a big focus area for us and will continue to be. And so, a couple of the areas, you had hit on like the product catalog, and imagery, and attributes for the products, that's an area. But for driving the efficiencies, we work really closely with the retailers and out of stock information. We have real-time data because we have shoppers that are in the store and they're looking for particular products. And so, we share that with the retailers to help them incorporate that in with their logistics information to try to reduce out-of-stocks. And we've seen some really good results with retailers where our data was helpful as an additional data point to solve some out-of-stocks. And so that's a big area that we focus on.Joe:Getting good IO location data is really helpful for helping the shopper navigate through the store. And so, we'll work with retailers on that. And then, I think your barcode scanning, we call it scan and go technology. We've enabled that with a couple of retailers, we're going to continue to build on that. And that is just so helpful for moving through the store more quickly, reducing checkout time, and reducing some of the labor costs in the store because the more that we can simplify the checkout process, that's labor savings with the retailers. And then, we're at the early stage of looking at other kinds of automated opportunities. And how do we take advantage of some of the investments that the retailers are to generate efficiencies?Stephanie:I see. And they should [inaudible] Bigger ones like Walmart were experimenting with having robots going down the aisles to map the store and take inventory. But having just so many issues depending on things were all jumbled behind the one that was near the aisle or how high the aisles were. And it seems like a big problem to solve, but something that could really help a lot of ... Especially larger retailers like the Costcos of the world, who just have so much stuff to inventory all the time and are constantly running out of things.Joe:Absolutely. And that's I think the bigger stores. But even the traditional grocery store could have 45,000, 50,000 skews. So it's such a big opportunity. I think there's going to be a lot of investments and especially as ecommerce has grown. Again, in many ways, the grocery industry is still early in the ecommerce space. And so, I do think there's going to be a lot of good technologies developed that will really help generate efficiencies, which will ultimately be a great win for the consumer because the efficiencies will drive down costs.Stephanie:Yep. I agree. All right. Let's move over to the lightning round, brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question, and you have a minute or less to answer. Joe, are you ready?Joe:Yeah, I'm ready.Stephanie:All right. I feel like you're on a roll. So I'm going to start with the trickier question first. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Joe:Well, the pandemic is certainly going to continue to have an impact on ecommerce. But I think ultimately, it will be how quickly retailers can continue to build out a broad ecosystem. And I think that's what customers are looking for. And I think those who move quickly to enable that will be most successful.Stephanie:What is one of your favorite business or management books that you refer back to from time to time?Joe:Well, it's funny. I just had this conversation with somebody with one of my peers and we were talking about strategy, and Art of War is something that I have on my bookshelf, and I do refer to it on an ongoing basis. I just think it's ... I mean, it's a classic, but I find it to be really beneficial.Stephanie:I love that one. What do you not understand today that you wish you did?Joe:Oh gosh. There's not a limit there. I think the piece that I want to continue to more broadly understand is the customer buying patterns across retailers and how that will continue to change. Everybody's got their collection of retailers that they shop for. And I just had this conversation recently because we were driving down the road, and there was a little strip mall that we've never really gone in. Those stores, I'm sure, are great. It's all part of our pattern. So the psychology behind creating the patterns and the behaviors, and then what would it require to disrupt that.Stephanie:That's a good answer. I like that. If you were to have a podcast, what would the podcast be about, and who would your first guest be?Joe:So I-Stephanie:I think you've thought about this-Joe:I have. I think podcasts are awesome, and I'm so envious. So, an area that I've found to be more interesting of late, I kind of stumbled across this street art. And so, Denver has got a really good community of street artists. And so I think it's super cool. And if ... I mean, my goal and I would love to meet Banksy, who's a street artist out in the UK. And that's if I could have him on my podcast. That's how I would do my one episode, and I'd be done.Stephanie:Like mic drop, I'm good.Joe:Exactly.Stephanie:That'd be a good one. All right. And then the last one, what is the favorite app on your phone?Joe:So, my favorite app, I don't know if I should say, well, DraftKings is recently become legal in Colorado. I have two boys. And so, we like pro football. And so, every Sunday, we choose a game and put 10 bucks on it. And so that is ... It's probably not the best family forward kind of thing, but we're having fun with it.Stephanie:Sounds pretty family forward to me, so, you can do what you want, Joe.Joe:So let me know if you have any recommendations because we haven't been winning the last couple of weeks.Stephanie:Oh, man. You don't want recommendations from me. Trust me. I'll let you guys do your thing there. I'll trust you. All right, Joe. Well, this interview has been great. Where can people find out more about you and Shipt?Joe:So Shipt.com and download the Shipt app. And then I am on LinkedIn, and Joe Manning chipped up on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much for coming on.Joe:Thank you. I really appreciate it. 

How to succeed on Amazon is a mystery that many DTC brands have tried and failed to solve. There are tricks to winning on the mega ecommerce site — tricks that no one tells you when you first put your product up for sale in the Amazon jungle. That’s why we’ve invited Ju Rhyu on the show. There were a lot of things that Ju wished she knew before she and her co-founders decided to launch Hero Cosmetics on Amazon. Things like what is brand gating? And how do you win the buy box? And what do you do about counterfeit products that pop up right when you start to have a little success?Ju found the answers to all of those questions and learned so much more as she grew Hero into one of the buzziest skincare brands on the market, which went from 0 to $1 million in year one,  and now not only sells on its website and on Amazon, but is also featured in retailers like Target, Madewell, CVS Pharmacy and more.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Ju spills the beans on what it takes to win big on Amazon, and how you can level up from there.Main Takeaways:Boxing Out Your Opponent: On Amazon, the first steps to success are winning the buy box and brand gating. It takes time, but if you take the steps to prove that you are the true owner of your product or IP, you’ll be able to avoid much of the pain that comes with selling on Amazon.If You Build It, They Will Come: Getting your product into retail locations is a mix of luck, perseverance, and creating your own destiny. Relentlessly pitching your product to anyone who will listen, and then jumping on trend-seeking retailers is a strategy to get your foot in the door. Also, having a PR strategy to build buzz may help drive interest in your brand. Far Out Future: Because 2020 accelerated the adoption of ecommerce, DTC brands are in a position to set the stage for where business is headed. From bike delivery to the creation of a DTC mall, Ju has a lot of predictions on what to look out for down the road.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello and welcome back to up next in ecommerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles co-founder at mission.org. Today on the show we have Ju Rhyu the co-founder and CEO of Hero cosmetics. Welcome.Ju:Thank you. Thanks for having me.Stephanie:Yeah. I'm really excited that you took the time to call in from Paris. That's so fancy when I say Paris, maybe you're like, this is normal for me, but you feel fancy.Ju:It was a fun fact that I tell people, "Oh, by the way, I live in Paris."Stephanie:So tell me a little bit about Hero. I would love to hear the founding story of how you started it. I mean, it has tons of news coverage and I was reading so many different stories. And I want to hear from you though about how you came to found it.Ju:I mean, the story is I was living in Korea. I was working there as an expat in Seoul, South Korea, and I was suffering from adult acne. I don't know exactly what was causing it. Maybe it could have been the changing environment, the lower air quality change in lifestyle, or maybe stress, I'm not sure. I was really frustrated because I kept breaking out and it was always just hard for me to find a solution that worked for me. But in Korea I noticed a lot of people walking around with these acne patches on their faces. So I got really curious. I went to a pharmacy, I bought some, and then I was just amazed at how well it worked because it sucked everything out and protected me from touching the area and picking at it.Ju:It was really gentle on my skin. And then I immediately started wondering why I was learning about it then, and not like 15 years ago and why it wasn't more available in the US so I did some research and then that's when the idea of like, Hey, I should make this available in the US I think people would really like it.Stephanie:That's so cool. I mean, it seems like Korea, all the beauty trends right now are coming from there, everything when it comes to double cleansing and [inaudible]Ju:Well, the 12 step regimen.Stephanie:Yes. I try to follow the 12 step regimen. And I got a little overwhelmed. I'm like, Oh, this is a lot to clean my face. So you found this product in Korea. What did you do next? How did you have the idea? Because a lot of people find other products in other countries. I know, I at least have, or my oldest T brands really good, or Oh, this hammock is really good, whatever it may be. And I don't always think, I'm going to bring this back to the States and do this. So what were your next steps? Why was this the product that you wanted to bring back and start?Ju:First of all, for me, it solved a real problem that I was struggling with it worked better than anything else I had ever really used. And I just got to thinking if this is helping me, this could probably help a lot of other people state side as well. And then actually in Korea, when, if you're a cosmetics manufacturer or distributor, you're obligated to print the name of the manufacturer on the back of your package, that is not true in the US actually. And so the first thing that I did was I started contacting these patch manufacturers to see how much it would cost to buy them from them, how the manufacturing side would work. If they could work with me to develop something that I thought would be suitable for the US market. So I went to a bunch of pharmacies. I bought up a lot of packages. I looked at the backs of the boxes to see who the manufacturers were. And then I started my outreach.Stephanie:What were some of the biggest surprises when you're reaching out to these manufacturers?Ju:I mean, a lot of them didn't return my calls or my emails. I don't blame them. I mean something like random person contacting them about buying up a much of their patches for a business idea that was still very nascent. And so that was a little bit frustrating, but there were a few that did reply to and then there was a little bit of a language barrier just because I mean, I'm Korean American living and I was living in Korea. But my Korean isn't totally fluent. And so a little bit of a language barrier, but I got really lucky because I landed on the manufacturer that we work with today, who was more than happy to get my email was super easy to work with was very open and developing relationship. And that's how, probably how we got to where we are today. From that one cold email he happened to respond and we've been working together for now over three years.Stephanie:Oh, wow. That's really cool. So were they open to creating custom packaging? Because I know when I've looked into this space before, it seemed very black and white. You can have our packaging or something very expensive, but like it's still going to be our design. How willing were they to have something really custom?Ju:They were pretty willing. They were willing to customize design and basically customize anything that we really wanted. So they were pretty open to that. This is their business, they make products for other companies and other brands. And so they were pretty familiar with how that whole process works.Stephanie:And did you end up using a very similar or exact product of what you got in Korea that you started selling here? Or did you make any updates or changes?Ju:Yeah, I worked with the manufacturer to adjust to some things I thought were really important. So things like the adhesion or the stickiness or the absorption power of the actual patch of the hydrocolloid patch. So there were some customizations that were made for this product because I definitely wanted to create like the perfect acne patch. And that's how we landed on what we have now.Stephanie:That's great. And do you feel like you had a leg up because it looked like you've been working in the world of digital and e-commerce prior to Hero. Was there anything that you learned from your past life before Hero that you brought into founding the company?Ju:Oh yeah. All the time. So my background is I actually got my MBA at Columbia business school and then I worked in corporate America for a really long time. So I worked at Kraft foods, American express, I worked at Samsung. That's what brought me to Korea. And I mean, I still lean on my, on all those experiences. I lean particularly on my Kraft foods experience because that was in brand management where they train you in a certain way of thinking for marketing. So, consumer is always first to teach you about the retail landscape and there's a distinction between your consumer and your customer. They talk about like the brand ladder. There's so many things that I still fall back on and use to this day. And then for some of the other companies, things like processes or even knowing about email and open rates and how to really digest analytics like that, are things that I still use today.Stephanie:That's great. So I'm going to get a little crash course in craft methodology. So earlier you just mentioned distinction between consumer and customer. What do you mean by that and how do you practice that?Ju:Yeah, it's funny because in my mind they're very different, but I know sort of in the public, they both get used interchangeably, but the way that a lot of these CPG companies work is they didn't exist before at DTC world. So they always sold through a retailer like a Walmart or Costco or target, et cetera. And so those retailers were always referred to as the customer because those were the people that were actually buying your product. And then you would refer to the consumer as the end-user of the product. So the person who would inevitably eat your Oreo cookie or use your Clorox cleaning solution. Usually the consumer ended up being the consumer of the retailer. So it's really not like if you're working at Kraft foods the consumer is not technically your consumer. I mean, it is, but by way of the retailer. And so that distinction was always very important when it was written out.Stephanie:That's good. All right. So you've got your manufacturer, you've got your product being built. What next?Ju:Yeah. I have two co-founders Dwight and Andy, and then I do a lot of the product, the marketing, the PR basically the sales person. Dwight handles a lot of the supply chain ops. And then Andy, he does all our design and creative. So we had gotten together we decided the three of us were going to do this. We had the product concepts so it came. So the next thing was to come up with the brand and the product name, the brand name. And for me, it was really important that we choose a name that was very like evokes emotion or something emotive because I felt like acne was a very emotional category. There are a lot of people who feel bad about themselves or feel insecure when they have acne.Ju:And so I wanted a name that was really, I don't know like instilled confidence or was like a just evoked positive emotion. And so that's where we came up with the name Mighty Patch. And then we had to create designs does on the box really kind of create the whole brand feel of this product. And then the initial strategy was we were going to sell it on Amazon. So we launched it on Amazon. That was how we were going to distribute it. And then once we had the distribution part then came the other part, which is how do you sell it? So we had to get people to know about it buy it, leave us reviews and things like that.Stephanie:So let's dive a bit into launching on Amazon because I always hear very mixed emotions about selling on Amazon. And I want to hear your thought process about, starting their first. And did you do research on the platform to kind of see, what the space was like? Like what kind of things did you go through before deciding like Amazon's actually a good spot to start?Ju:Well, so we started this business almost like a side hustle. It was a side hustle and we were bootstrapped, we didn't raise money. And so for us, Amazon was like the most logical place to start because you have access to hundreds of millions of buyers. It doesn't take a lot of resources or investment to launch on Amazon. You can take advantage of their backend, like warehouses and fulfillment centers to help with the fulfillment part. So for us, like Amazon made so much sense and then also, back then it wasn't... we just had a hypothesis. And the hypothesis was that if we bring this product category to the US and position it more as a beauty product that it could do well.Ju:And so for us, the easiest way to test out that hypothesis was on a platform like Amazon. So rather than having to spend all the money to build a website and find a three PL and do things like that, the easiest and quickest way to test out our hypothesis was to put a page on Amazon. We said, let's see if people buy it. If people buy it, then we'll work on phase two, which would be launching a DTC channel.Stephanie:That's awesome. I think that's such a great way to have that, like MVP products. See if it works before investing too heavily into a big website and yeah, like you said, setting up three PLS. What kind of hiccups did you experience when you launched on Amazon or started that process?Ju:So one was we actually proved out our product market fit very quickly. And we actually ran out. We either I can't remember, but I think we almost ran out of inventory or we did run out of inventory. We had like our second order on a boat and it was supposed to be released, but like the timing didn't work out. And so it was really, really tight in terms of inventory planning. The other issue was we were getting people were now brand gated, but before we were brand gated, we're getting people attaching themselves to our listings as we were getting more and more popular. And so I don't know how many people know how Amazon really works, but a lot of times when you have a product page, it's not something that you own, unless you're brand gated.Ju:It's something that other people can sell that product, leveraging your product page. And then the idea is yeah, everyone has to win the buy box. And the buy box is when you're on an Amazon product page, and you add to cart, the person who's winning the buy box is the first person whose product you would add to your cart. So I didn't know any of this when we first started, I was like, why do you have to earn the buy box?Stephanie:I had no idea. I mean, I see that from a consumer side where it's like, you have other options, but I never go to those. It's like whoever's first is who I go with.Ju:Yeah. And it's really smart on Amazon's part, because as a seller, you have to earn it either by having really good reviews, like seller reviews or you have to earn it by having the best price. And so there are a lot of sellers, they'll price a penny cheaper, or like 5 cents cheaper, and then they'll win the buy box. Which inevitably is a very dangerous game because you can just sort of discount this product to zero. So anyways, we were getting people attaching themselves for a page, which wasn't good because we wanted to protect our products and our IP and all that. And then the other issue that we ran into was we started getting counterfeits mixed into our inventory. So there was a time where and I have a photo of it. It's like someone had literally ripped off our designs created like their own version of our box. I'll be at the designs were not like you could tell that it was fake. It wasn't a perfect copy. But somehow it had gotten mixed into our inventory. And then that fake product was getting shipped out to customers.Stephanie:How is that happen? I mean, was that like on the manufacturer or how does it get mixed into your inventory?Ju:I don't really know, but I think what happens is they probably attached themselves to our page at that time. And then won the buy box and started shipping this big products to these customers. I think some of them were returned, like people would return them and then it'd get mixed into our inventory that way. Stephanie:Oh, that's tricky. Yeah, because I've seen that in reviews on Amazon where people would be like, this is the authentic one. I've been buying this for five years and now it's a knock off. And I'm like well, how's that happened? But I guess he just didn't understand how that could happen, where I'm like well, the brand wouldn't have a knockoff, but yet now knowing how the buy box works and yeah, that can be really tricky. So how did you get those people off of your page when they started attaching themselves to your page? Like what did you do to rise above them?Ju:Yeah. So there's something that you can do on Amazon called brand gating. And you have to prove that you own the IP or the trademark to your brand name. So you present them, you submit all the evidence and then they will brand gate you, which means that you are sort of no longer a public page where people can attach themselves to your page. You and only you can can moderate or edit or sell on your page. And so that's what we did. And then since we've done that, it hasn't been a problem.Stephanie:Well, that's a really good lesson for anyone new trying to start out on Amazon. That is a possibility. Very good to know. So what's changed on Amazon since you launched there in 2017, what kind of things have changed?Ju:Well, our category now has just exploded. And it's funny because in September when we launched this September, 2017, it was us and maybe like one or two other products when you looked up acne patches, but now when you search for acne patches, there are like pages and pages and pages of acne patches that show up in the search results. And so sure competition [crosstalk 00:19:00]. We're the best seller, we have the best-seller badge.Stephanie:How did you get that? Just from actually being a bestseller or was there anything else behind that. I'm thinking way off course by looking at the Amazon page now.Ju:Yeah. So it's like a three-pronged strategy. One is you need to support your product and your page within the Amazon paid media ecosystem. As you need to run your sponsored product ads and your display ads. And so there's a whole advertising strategy. The other is you have to optimize your organic content. So your product titles, your page titles, your descriptions have the right key words, a plus content, video content, images. So that's the second strategy. And then the third part is kind of building your outside ecosystem. So having press point to your Amazon page or having influencers talk about your product and being available on Amazon and just sort of building your brand halo. So you have to be relentless. It definitely takes time. It took us about a year to get the bestsellers badge from the moment where we really started going after it.Stephanie:So let's talk a bit more about the competitive space, because like you said, beauty is very competitive. So many people are launching products. Like what do you all do to stay ahead from your competition?Ju:We will look at our messaging a lot. We always want to be sort of one step ahead in terms of how we message our products, why we're better really talking about our differentiation. We're also really evolving in terms of product portfolio. So we're best known for our patches, obviously that's whatever it is our bestseller on Amazon and elsewhere. But since then we've launched a lot of other products with like we have rescue bomb and then lightning won and then we're coming out with a bunch of other things next year to really build kind of a routine and regimen for acne. And so, I get the question a lot, like, why is your patch different from others? Like tell me about the patch. Like, they just want to know about the patch, but part of my job these days is really telling people that we're about much more than just the patch, we're really an acne brand. And so I think that tactic is something that is also differentiated from a lot of other competitors out there who may only have like a single patch product.Stephanie:Yeah. [inaudible] great because it shows that you're really invested in that whole market and you are always finding new products to offer to your customers, which is only going to help. Like how do you go about developing those new products and know what your customers want?Ju:It's a mix of art and science. It's some of it comes from well... We have a great PD team, product development team. Part of it comes from sort of research where we're always looking and reading at trends. And we're trying to react to white space that we see in the market. Part of it also just comes from our collective acne issues. Like sometimes I'll break out and I'll say, I really wish I had a product that did this. Why doesn't it exist? And then I'll talk to product development team. And then we'll create something that addresses that issue. Some of it also comes from research that we do with our customers or our consumers, excuse me. Well, we'll ask them what are you looking for? What else do you want to see from us? What other types of acne issues do you have that we could solve? So it's a little bit of like intuition comes from our own experiences. Some of it comes from data. It's kind of there's no perfect recipe, I guess we're coming up with your products.Stephanie:Yeah. Cool. So let's shift over a little bit into more wholesale deals and getting in retail, because I saw some of the retail locations that you're in, like Madewell and target J group. Very impressive. And so I'm sure everyone's like well, how did you get into those retail locations?Ju:Yeah. Okay. So we launched on Amazon September, 2017. I immediately started pitching retailers our product, and then anthropology was actually the first one to take us in January of 2018. And they took us as a-Stephanie:That's quick.Ju:Yeah. It was really quick which again, for me it just affirmed the idea that there was a need in the market for this type of product.Stephanie:What was your pitch? Tell us the magic.Ju:It was really like just a cold pitch email telling them what the product was, what it does, why it's gray included a picture in the email. So they had a visual really just use concise bullet points. And I mean, that's kind of it. I didn't attach a deck or anything like that.Stephanie:And did you have any data that you included that maybe won them over?Ju:I think I had talked about how acne patches in Korea were... so back then KBD was really hot. And I think I'd talked to them. I think I had mentioned that acne patches were really popular in Korea and that and there was a Korean brand that was quite popular. And so I wanted to bring like an American version of that product to the US so in a way that, buyers are usually trend seekers, they pay a lot of attention to the trends of their category. So I think she knew that acne patches a developing an emerging.Stephanie:That's great. So you got anthropology as your first retail partner. Was it easier to get the rest after you could point to anthropology and be like, see we're in here?Ju:I mean, it's definitely validation gives you street cred. But I think in 2018 when we launched in a lot of specialty retailers and I credit that to I'm a big believer in, if you build the demand, the retailers will come. And so once I started our PR push and we were mentioned in, into the gloss and business insider and Buzzfeed, I actually started getting quite a bit of inbound requests from buyers. So I remember like American Eagle was an inbound J crew, I believe was an inbound, Neiman Marcus was an inbound. So as we started getting more press and becoming more known on Instagram and things like that I actually started getting pitched from these buyers. They would email me and say, Hey, I heard about your product. I really want to try it. Can you send me some samples? And so that was sort of special.Stephanie:That's awesome. So how did you get this press to get in front of them? What kind of avenues were they finding you on, like, were they finding you from Instagram or was it actually in these articles that were somehow ending, ending up on their computer screen? How did that work?Ju:So there's a service that I used called Launch Grow Joy. I recommend to, I recommend them to like every entrepreneur that I've talked to, because it's sort of like DIY PR so you pay like a monthly or yearly fee, you log into their system and then they give you access to all these editors that are looking for content or products to talk about in their next article. I did all the pitching early on and like had mentioned before the first article that we really got was an into the gloss. And immediately after that article went up, I think I got like two or three inbound emails from retailers saying, Oh, I just read about your product. I really want to try it. And so I think if you know, what the buyers re like, usually depending on your category, they read certain things to know what the trends are and to know what's like new. So for beauty.Ju:And so the gloss is it's a publication that a lot of people read. And so I just got really lucky, I think with that first article and then just started pitching other beauty related publications and then sort of build [inaudible]Stephanie:That's really great. So now you're in many retail locations at that point? What kind of lessons did you learn that maybe you took to new retail partner you got?Ju:That's a good question. I think packaging is really, really important. I think that's why initially I think we stood out because our packaging was very colorful and it was very bright. And then it was pretty clear with product did on the packaging. And so for me, like anytime we make a packaging change, I always run it by our buyers. So when we launch new products and we're looking at a different color scheme or something like that, I'll always send it to our buyers to get quick feedback, because they'll know if it'll do well or won't do well. So that's a big one.Stephanie:Do you change packaging based on different retail locations whatever connects with anthropology might be very different than target.Ju:No, we don't, maybe we'll do different pack sizes, but we won't really change the design. So I think that's a big one. I mean, I've learned that working and staying close with the buyer is really important because they'll have a lot of input into your innovation too. Because, because sometimes like they're looking for a certain type of product and then they'll come to you and they'll be like, Oh, we'd love this. We'd love it if you made X, Y, Z product. And so I try to stay close with the buyers on innovation pipeline. I think it's really important to hold price. We started selling on Amazon. And then I actually was very worried in the beginning that no one would take us because we were on Amazon, because to your point, a lot of people have this love, hate relationship with Amazon.Ju:But actually what I found was that no one had a problem with it because we're three on Amazon. So we sell on their marketplace. Therefore we control the price because we could control the price. A lot of other retailers were okay with it. And in fact, they kind of see Amazon success as validation that it will probably do well at their store as well.Stephanie:Yeah, that makes sense. Very cool. So now with where the world's at today, and a lot of retail locations, declaring bankruptcy, what are you guys experiencing right now? And what's your go forward strategy?Ju:Yeah, this year has been an interesting year. We're luckily one of those businesses that actually benefited from COVID in a way and really two reasons, I think one reason is our distribution strategy. So the biggest channels that we sell in which are D to C, Amazon and Target are, they were always online or they never say it another way. They never had to close this year because like Target was considered an essential retailer, Amazon, they're online and then D to C is online. And so luckily we weren't a company that depended heavily on a retailer that did have to close so that, so we saw minimal impact. And then in fact, like, as these essential retailers, they get stronger. Our business actually just gets stronger as well. And then the other issue is since we all have to wear masks the masks because acne, and there's a term that people use is called [inaudible 00:33:08].Stephanie:Have not heard of that.Ju:Have you not? Its called [inaudible] And it's caused by either like the friction. So when you wear the mask, sometimes it rubs on her face and it causes friction and then that'll cause you to break out or I don't know if you've noticed this, but when I have the mask on it, it creates humidity when you talk like when you talk and when you breathe, it creates humidity. and that humidity gets trapped and creates bacteria, which causes you to break out. And so we've seen a lot of people suffer from mass MI looking for a solution and then they end up finding our products and our company. And so that's another reason why we've actually benefited from COVID in a way.Stephanie:Oh, that's good. So are you going after the masks masks me keyword or any other cameras coming?Ju:Yeah, actually when I first heard about maskne I don't know, maybe it was like April, like may or something like that, I immediately told my team and I said, Hey, we need to double down on this, on this word, let's write a blog post, let's do social content. We need to own maskne. I think we were the first ones probably to come up with like content around maskne and to do, to even create a bundle on our website for a mass me. And then since then I've seen some other people do that, but I saw that as definitely an opportunity for us.Stephanie:Yeah. That's, really good. So I want to move over into the mentorship category now, because I saw that you have Jamie Schmidt as your mentor and she created schmaltz and she started in a farmer's market and then ended up selling it to Unilever. So amazing mentor. I want to learn a bit about the types of things that she's guiding you on or the most memorable pieces of advice that she's given you.Ju:Oh gosh. So she helps me a lot with distribution because she also obviously had built and sold a company that's similar in terms of distribution strategy. Like they weren't just D to C. They also sold that big box retail and had a pretty extensive they had extensive distribution. And so I remember when we did a mentoring session for Inc magazine, one of the questions I asked her was around like succeeding at target and how to do that, how to ensure success because it's a really important relationship. You want to make sure you get it right. You don't really have a second chance. So she gave give a lot of really good advice and tips on that and also how they support it.Ju:I remember her saying that they ran a lot of geo-targeted ads and some of the top like 50 or a hundred stores to drive traffic to, to the target stores. So that was a really good idea. And even, even now I hadn't recently sent her an email about sort of international distribution, because I know they have quite a few international distributor partners how to navigate those relationships what those relationships should look like. And then people should definitely follow her on Twitter. She gives a lot of really good advice on Twitter for free. So I'm always following what she tweets.Stephanie:She's very smart. I follow her as well. So what kind of thoughts did she have around expanding internationally? And are you working towards doing that or are you already international?Ju:We're kind of international, like we sell on Amazon Canada, we sell at Liberty London in the UK. It hasn't been a big push for us just because US market alone is so big and then we already have so much work. But it's definitely something we have our eyes set on just because for us, acne, we want to make our products available for anyone who has acne. I think they really do help people who break out. And so that's obviously not just limited to the US it's really a global problem. Anyone who breaks out should be able to access our products. And so it is, yeah, it's in the strategy for sure. I think it's a matter of prioritizing it when we have the time.Stephanie:Cool. And so by taking a product that you found in Korea and bringing it back here, it seems like there'd be a lot of room to go other places and be like oh, and here's another product I can bring to the US and another one, like do you ever get tempted when you travel or traveling to buying other products and be like this worked once. Why wouldn't I just launch more things on Amazon?Ju:Yeah, I haven't had a product idea yet, but living in Paris I do see things here where I'm like oh, wow. I wish I could introduce this to the US. I think it could do really well.Stephanie:What are some things in Paris doing well, or unless you don't want people to steal your idea because we have many customers who might, I don't know.Ju:Well, I'll say there's a retail idea. There's a retail chain that does quite well here and that doesn't exist in the US and again, it was sort of the same thing. I'm like, why does it exist in the US? And I think you're right. I think that's like one of the great things about traveling is you get to really explore and learn a different culture and discover different products or different services that could be adaptable to a different country, a different market. And so I kind of have two ideas that are kind of like that already.Stephanie:All right. So I want to move into a couple more like higher level ecommerce questions because you've been in the industry for awhile. I want to hear what kind of trends or patterns are you most excited about right now?Ju:I think there's a lot of cool stuff in food that's happening. I think I'm really interested... For me personally, I'm really interested in the environment and sustainability, and I see a lot of cool ideas around local delivery by bike. So it's zero emission. It gets a product from point A to point B. It is a lot more sustainable. I think that's really interesting. I think food again is also interesting. And especially with COVID and this year and how I think the uptake with buying food online has probably skyrocketed. I think there are a lot of people who weren't used to doing their groceries online. So I'm really curious to see innovation that comes out with food. I'm also very interested in sort of this marketplace concept that I see coming up and popping up. There's a new marketplace called [inaudible 00:41:57].Stephanie:Yeah. I was just reading about that this morning.Ju:Yeah. So it's sort of like a D to C. I guess it's a good D to C marketplace or some marketplace for D to C brands, almost like an online mall, which I think sounds really interesting as well. So I don't know. I mean, there's just a ton of stuff going on. I think for sure, like ecomm is going to be it because we've seen the adoption just really increase in penetration over the past eight months, I guess. So I'm curious to see what the innovation is going to be like, but I already see a ton of ideas happening at the moment.Stephanie:Yeah. Awesome. All right. Let's move over to the lightning round, brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready Ju?Ju:I'm ready?Stephanie:All right. So what's up next on your Netflix queue other than Emily and Paris, obviously?Ju:Oh, I'm watching the Crown, the newest season.Stephanie:Is it good? Someone just said that yesterday.Ju:Oh yeah. Because it's all about princess Diana and Prince Charles. So yes, it's good.Stephanie:Awesome. Where are you traveling to next when you're able to travel again?Ju:I really want to go to Korea actually. I want to go to Seol.Stephanie:Find more trends.Ju:Yeah. Find more trends. I want to see my relatives. I want to meet my vendors. Yeah, I would really like to go there.Stephanie:Fun. What do you not understand today that you wish you did?Ju:I wish I could understand TikTok better.Stephanie:Do you guys use TikTok?Ju:We're very heavy on TikTok. It's one of our most important social channels, but I don't know. I find it so time-intensive to make the videos and create the content and stuff, but there's some people who are amazing at it.Stephanie:So what kind of what are your best performing videos on TikTok?Ju:Oh, the peeling off the patch and that video. Yeah, because it's like kind of like a doctor Pimple Popper moment. It's kind of gross, but satisfying. And those videos will get like millions of views in like 48 hours.Stephanie:I had a feeling that was going to be what it was. I can advertise those videos all the time. I don't know what I clicked on at one point in my life, but I can all that advertised to me on Facebook and wherever I'm at. [inaudible] stop following me. Cool. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Ju:Oh, that's a good question, because I actually thought about having a podcast. I would have a podcast around entrepreneurship. I don't know exactly how it would be different from other topics, but something around probably entrepreneurship, maybe how people made the first million dollars or something like that. And then my first guest would probably be Jim [inaudible 00:45:11].Stephanie:There you go. That's to mean you already have that connection, it sounds like a hit to me. All right. And the last one, we talked a little bit about trends or patterns you're excited about. This is a little bit different. What one thing do you think is going to have the biggest impact on ecommerce within the next year?Ju:Well, I mean, I guess the pandemic has already had its impact. In the next year... I don't know. I mean I think probably this big sustainability push is... I don't know if it will be in the next year, but I think we will start to see it impacting ecommerce in a significant way, in packaging in your carbon footprint. And I think we're going to see a lot more of it in the next year for sure.Stephanie:All right Ju, this has been a really fun interview. I love talking about how you launched on Amazon and how to get into retail. I feel like there's a lot to learn. Where can people find out more about you and your cosmetics?Ju:You can find more about Hero cosmetics either on Instagram. The handle is Hero cosmetics website, herocosmetics.com. And then for me, you can find me on Twitter. It's just my first name, last name, J-U-R-H-Y-U, and then same handle on Instagram.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much for joining.

From the baseball field, to the Nascar track, to the tennis court, in sports, ads can be found everywhere. Brands and sports have been linked together through sponsorship for decades. And now, with the rise of social media and influencers, athletes can create even more profitable relationships with brands than ever before. But a sponsorship should be more than just a way for a brand and an athlete to make money. Today, more than ever, that message matters. The story you tell makes a difference. And the purpose behind a brand is what is drawing people in and converting them to loyal customers. At POC, that belief is what has been driving the company since its founding, and it is influencing its unique content strategy, which is successfully driving people to its website and into its ecommerce channels. POC is a Swedish company that makes top of the line protective gear for athletes around the world. David DeMartini is POC’s Global Chief Marketing and Digital Officer and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he explains why the purpose- and data-driven content strategy the company has  devised is working, and what other brands can learn from what they have built. Whether it’s more of a focus on original, serialized video, or a different approach to working with influencers, POC’s marketing strategies have far outperformed traditional methods. Learn how and why on today’s episode! Main Takeaways:Propose a Purpose: More than ever, consumers are driven to brands that have a clearly-stated purpose or mission. But simply having a purpose written out on your website is not enough. Brands that develop an ambitious purpose, stress test it, and look beyond the problems of now to understand how their purpose can drive them in the future are the ones that will succeed.Don’t Be Old School: Athlete sponsorships are not new in the marketing world, however, brands like POC are finding creative ways to expand those partnerships. By investing in different marketing channels like video series, movies, and other long-form, engaging content, brands can set themselves apart and tell stories in ways customers will connect with. More Than The Data: Every organization should be using data to guide organizational decisions, but data should never be the only factor. Data should be used in conjunction with what you know about your customers on an intangible level to create a balance that is analytics-based but still feels human.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello, and welcome back to up next in ecommerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder of mission.org. Our guest today is David DeMartini, the Chief Marketing Officer at POC. David, welcome to the show.David:Hi, Stephanie. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm really excited to have you too. I just went into a Wormhole watching some of your guys' videos with the skiers, flying down the mountain at lightning speed and I was like, "Could I do this? No, probably not." But they were great to watch.David:Yes. Oh, well, thank you. And I sure you could do it. We have an amazing roster of athletes that do a great job of telling our brand story through their actions and our goal is to do everything we can to keep them safe. So, it's fun to create content or let them create content and it helps us tell our story.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. We'll definitely be diving into all of that in a little bit, but first tell me or anyone who's listening, what is POC?David:Yeah. So POC is a Swedish company that was founded in 2006, 2007 timeframe. We are a protection brand. We're the world's leading protection brand, currently servicing athletes and participants across bicycle sports and snow sports. And so, we have a really strong mission and purpose to save lives and protect those pursuing their passion, and enable people to really find more joy in life through using our products to keep them as safe as possible when they're doing the things that they love.Stephanie:Yeah. And you have very nice looking products as well. I haven't been snowboarding in a while, but I'm like, "If I was, I would want this helmet here and they even have mouth guards nowadays, which is mind blowing to me." I mean, very helpful, but I have not seen any other companies. You have a helmet with a... Is it called a mouth guard? What is the word for that now?David:Yeah. Well, on the snow side, we have a couple of different disciplines that we service. And I think the product you're referencing is one of the helmets we have on the race side of our business. When slalom skiers or even some GS skiers are running gates. There's a chin bar that attaches to the helmets to make sure none of [crosstalk] end up smacking them in the face as they're making their way down the course. So, always looking for ways to better protect our athletes in our customers. And that's a pretty handy service with that chin bar because taking a slalom gate to the face is not much fun.Stephanie:Yeah. It does not sound like it. I also looked at them like this would be perfect for my two and a half year old, and he is always falling and hitting his face somehow, or his chin I'm like, "You guys need some kids versions of this."David:Yeah. That's a good point. We have an amazing children's line that we call poquito-Stephanie:Oh, cute.David:Kids helmets and there's some really cool safety pieces built into that. We found that the most accidents that happened with kids on a ski slope or on a bicycle are scenarios where someone larger than them, whether it's a larger kid or an adult just simply doesn't see them. And there's a collision that happens. So we have a really great visibility story built into our kids' products, but we hadn't thought about the chin or face protection for the children, but maybe we [crosstalk 00:03:28]. Yeah?Stephanie:Yeah. So when I was looking through your LinkedIn [inaudible 00:03:33], I also saw that you have a background in media and sports, and I was wondering what drew you over to POC?David:Yeah, so I of cut my teeth at an agency in Colorado working across an amazing book of brands that the agency Backbone Media service at the time. And it was really an amazing opportunity for me because I got to really dig in and understand some of the challenges that brands have really all maturity level, where we're trying to overcome. Everything from a larger, more established brand, like Eddie Bauer or YETI Coolers, all the way up to startups looking at how do they just continue to raise some money to propel their businessDavid:And so, as I was working through and learning and absorbing and working with all these amazing people at Backbone Media, I was really fine-tuning the things that were interesting to me and knew I always wanted to be in marketing and direct-to-consumer but really found an understanding of what specifically in those areas were interesting.David:And then after about five years with Backbone, POC was one of the clients of Backbone for a long time. And one of the accounts I worked on and an opportunity came up to join POC internal as the marketing director for North America and I took that and I've been lucky to find myself in some opportunistic positions within POC. And my skillset has allowed me to rise to the ranks here as well which has been really fun and really rewarding.Stephanie:Yeah. That's great. I also love how POC has the same messaging across all the platforms. It was very clear about what you guys stood for. So tell me a little bit about... Did that draw you in when you saw, "Here's our purpose. Here's why we're here." How did that impact your decision to jump over to work with them?David:Yeah. I think that one of the key attributes that you see as particularly important and something that a lot of brands in the outdoor space focus on is purpose. And the term purpose can be applied to business or the way that a company operates in a lot of different ways. But I realized early on that a trend that I was seeing with the brands that I worked with at Backbone Media, the ones with a solid foundation, a clear purpose and a really clear and ambitious but not to the point where the brand platform and the mission of the vision didn't really mean anything. Those are the companies and the brands that were doing the best.David:And so, I quickly realized how important that was. And so, as I thought about what was next, I knew that, that was core to any organization that I could see myself at, for an extended period of time. And so I made that one of my priorities and starting to look around for whatever was next for me was that purpose has to be there. And I have to really be able to connect to that purpose in a meaningful way because if I can't, in a lot of ways you're trying to fake it to make it, and that just gets really taxing and is tiresome and hard to do. And it comes back to, if you can act to the purpose it's very easy to find the motivation to really give everything you have to the business and these days you have to do that.David:So, POC has had it. It's a really amazing a brand platform and admission and vision. That's been with us since day one and credit to the founder, Stefan Ytterborn who created the brand in 2006, to address a problem that he saw in the form of... His kids were becoming ski racers. And he looked around at the head protection at the time and said, "This doesn't seem all that great and I think I can do this better." And had the foresight to realize that spending the time and really ironing out what he was there to do and what their mission and vision looked like, was crucial to make sure he built something that could continue to live on and be successful.Stephanie:That's great. Your kids always seem to be a driving force sometimes with businesses or new products. And I love that story, having an actual reason to develop something and being like, "Oh, everyone actually needs us in this industry. And it's not good enough. I'm going to fix it right now."David:Yeah. He saw a problem that was specific to him and where he was in his life and realized that, he's probably not the only one feeling this way and really created something special and it's been a fun ride since then and continues to do well. So, again, it goes back to the core purpose of the business is real and meaningful. And that's really valuable and making sure that we make the right decisions on a day-to-day basis.Stephanie:So, since you've been able to see many brands, especially why you were working at the agency, what are tips or best practices around maybe a new brand coming up with their purpose, but then actually following through, because I think that's a tricky thing with a lot of these new companies popping up it seems like a lot of them say they have a purpose or here's what we're doing, but it doesn't actually come through. It's just like the messaging. You don't see actions behind it. Is there any advice or things that you saw when you were at the agency of like this work and this did not work, everyone should not do it this way?David:Yeah. It's a good question. And I think the answer to that can take many different forms but really what you're looking for is something that's balanced in something that is, it can stand the test of time. And so what I saw at Backbone was it used to be that you could identify a problem, find a solution for it, and then take that and run with it. And I think that that worked for a long time and that was the traditional approach to starting a business. But I think the consumer today has evolved so much to where they look for more than just helping them solve a problem. You really have to be invested in the solution and in the problem itself to a point where it's authentic and real.David:And so I think for anybody who's thinking about starting a business and can't stress enough, the importance of making sure you spend the time and put the work in on building a brand platform and then pressure testing that through all different mock scenarios thinking about where you're going to be in five years, 10 years, 15 years, and beyond. And making sure the verbiage you use in the core of that brand platform can remain constant. I see if a new company is... It's almost like you can't be too focused on the problem you're trying to solve, you have to think beyond that problem, that future problems, and make sure that your approach and what you're creating can solve future problems as much as it can solve the problem here and now.David:And it's a really hard thing to do, and it takes a very specific approach and creative mind. And it's not easy to achieve. And so I feel lucky to be part of an organization where, we were able to achieve that. And the founders that started POC went through that exercise and it's cumbersome and difficult. But I think it's super important.Stephanie:Yeah. I completely agree. It reminds me of... I don't know if you've heard of the, Clock of the Long Now, it's a 10,000-year clock, and it's all about encouraging long-term thinking. And every time I start thinking about longer-term thinking, and where is this headed? I always think about that clock, it's my motivation.David:Yeah. I think that's a great connection point. And it's really hard to visualize and come up with mock scenarios as to what could happen in 10 years because who knows what's going to happen in 10 years. But I think just going through the exercises and putting the time and the effort and we'll help you find the right balance between to immediate here and now, and then on the other end of the spectrum is... I don't know if you know a guy named Scott Galloway, but he uses the term, yogababble where you use so many buzz words and it's so conceptual that it actually completely loses all of its meaning. You got to find someplace in between there that is balanced and can stand the test of time to a certain degree.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a good mentality. I saw you have another title, which you didn't mention in the intro, and I'm not sure why, of executive producer. I was looking at the one video, American Downhiller, which is really good. I only got to watch 10 minutes of it, but I think it's a good segue Into some of your marketing and content strategies because the video was so well done. I mean, is it on Netflix? If not, it should be. Tell me a little bit about how you guys go about thinking about developing videos.David:Yeah. I'm really glad you brought that up because that's a really, really fun and amazing project that we just launched to the world earlier in... I think it was in October actually. I was going to say November but, launched in October with a world premier here in Park City, Utah, and then a distribution program with U.S. Ski Team and skiracing.com. And like I mentioned, we got our start in ski racing and it's incredibly important in Colorado business. Compared to other snow sports categories, or the bike category. It's relatively small, but it's so important because in the athletes... Really on any level that are competing or skiing gates on a consistent basis.David:I mean, that's where the stakes are at the highest. That the speeds are incredibly high. The snow conditions are ice essentially these days. You have skis with incredibly sharp edges and the possibility of things going wrong is quite high. And so, we work really hard to continue to innovate on behalf of the ski race community and find different ways to apply the different technologies and safety features that we develop to their world. And so, through the years we've become really close to this ski race community. Like I said, it's not a huge community, but it's very tight-knit one. And one that we're very happy and proud to be part of.David:And over the years, looking for opportunities and being very close with the U.S. Ski Team, we saw this story that was really amazing and hadn't really been told on a mass level around the men's speed team, and how brotherhood really formed through, I guess you could say it through unique adversity in the sense that no ski racing in the U.S. is not what it is in Europe. When you go to Austria, you go to Norway, you go to Switzerland, ski racing is... I mean, the Hanukkah in Austria is it's like the Super Bowl, it's a huge deal there. They have amazing massive fan bases and so being an American and on the American team, when you're competing, most of the races are in Europe. And so the challenge is that the U.S. team had to overcome were unique.David:And I'm not really qualified nor want to say that their challenges were harder or worse to overcome than some of the Europeans, but they were just different. You're not able to travel home on the weekends. You're spending so much time with your other teammates and it really cultivated this brotherhood that organically evolved into this story that became... They took the name American Downhillers, and that term became a tool to represent this brotherhood and the function of some of the veteran guys on the team working to help develop and help some of the younger guys that were coming up to the speed program navigate some of these difficult scenarios that they were in, where you're in foreign country, you're not able to see your family. You're not able to go home on a consistent basis.David:And really that story was just so amazing that we were working with skiracing.com, and we finally said, "Hey, let's try and tell the story." And so, it came to life and I believe it was 2017 where we started to do some short episodes in conjunction with skiracing.com. And we did that for two or three years, five minute, eight minute, 12 minute episodes, focusing in on different elements of this American Downhiller story.David:And towards the middle of 2019, we said to ourselves, "Well, these episodes are great but we haven't really done anything like telling the story from start to finish. Is something we haven't done and it would be an amazing piece for the ski race community." And so, we partnered with skiracing.com and a woman named Claire Brown, who's an amazing producer and has an amazing team of filmmakers. And she's been a part of the ski race community since she was a little kid and she raised competitively through college and I believe she was an All American. And as a staple in that industry and community. And so, we worked with her to tell the story. And so we were able to tell the story from start to finish and pull pieces from the different episodes that we had. And it turned into this really amazing piece that, gives some insight and some behind the scenes look into what it truly means to be an American Downhiller and then some of the challenges that they had to overcome.David:So a really, really fun project that Claire and Elizabeth Reeder, who's one of our Sports Marketing Managers, did an amazing job facilitating and putting together, and we're super proud of it. And we're excited we're going to continue on with this theme and this first one was focused on the men's team, and there's equally as interesting and amazing stories on the women's side. And we're excited to continue to tell these amazing stories that happen in American ski racing, and the next one up we'll be focused on the women's team.Stephanie:That's great. So, where does this content live? I definitely want to finish it. I mean, like I said, it seems like it should be on Netflix or something. It's very, very well done, very professional. It gets you right from the beginning with all the skiers hopping in and saying what it means to them. Where do you guys put this content after it's all made?David:So the distribution for it... We launched a lot of amazing new ski race product this season. And so, we had an objective to reach and engage and build our connection with the ski race community. So the initial rollout plan with this was to work with the U.S. Ski Team work with skiracing.com. and obviously we would support it as well, but we have it living on YouTube and we've seen really great results from an organic grassroots distribution plan. We are looking at some film festivals throughout the country over the next few months and have submitted it in a few of those and we are looking at some larger distribution. There's possibility that some of it might run on NBC, this winter, which would be amazing.David:And we're looking at the subscription viewers or platforms like Netflix and Apple TV and Amazon as well. And trying to figure out how we can get it up there. The goal with the larger distribution platforms is... Again, the story is what's most important and the story can help inspire the next generation of ski racers or particularly American Downhillers. There's a utility function to that and we want to make sure that, that's available to any and everybody that wants to see it on an ongoing basis. So there's a long tail distribution plan to this as well, to make sure that anybody who wants to learn and understand this story has the ability to do that through some of these larger platforms.Stephanie:That's cool. It seems like there's definitely a lot of angles. You've got the partnership thing going on. You've got... Yeah, being able to tell the story holistically, like you wanted to and then the long tail of possibly be able to sell products as well when people see them, yeah. At the perfect place, perfect time while they're watching it.David:Yeah. And we were very intentional about... We didn't want this to be something that felt like we were artificially trying to place product throughout it, the commitment was to the story. And like I said, we've been a partner with U.S. Ski Team for so long that now our product is visible, but you'll also see product from our competitors. And that's okay. We feel like if the story's great and we can help facilitate telling it we don't need a ton of branding. We don't need POC products sitting next to every interview or we don't need the traditional product placement in these stories, feel like we're doing a service to the community by facilitating telling it, and for us, that's what we're here for. So, we take a bit of a different approach to content than say some brands do or some brands previously have.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, how do you guys approach product placement? Because that seems like a very... I mean, it's always been around, but I see a lot of brands doing it way better now. I was just talking about it, the Netflix series of one about organizing and how well the container store did after that. And I don't remember really being slapped over the head with the branding, but it was more me wanting to check into it afterwards if like, "Well, what were they using to organize their entire closets?" And it was very organic. So I see brands doing a much better job now when it comes to product placement and partnerships around that. How do you guys explore that avenue?David:Yeah. So our sports marketing organization does an incredible job and partnering with athletes and getting our product on athletes has been core to our marketing strategy since day one. And so, again, do think it comes back to the purpose conversation we had and we are not delivering on our purpose if we are not supplying the best in the world with our products, because we truly do believe that they're the safest products out there. And so, as you mentioned it, when you take an approach of... We want personalities, we want athletes on our roster that have similar beliefs but of course their own brand and their own way of executing on those beliefs. But we want people who stand for innovation, progression, and we want to make sure that the partnerships we develop with athletes, we truly are helping them pursue their passion and helping them progress the sport that they've dedicated their lives to.David:And so, we have an amazing list of a roster of athletes that we're always looking at and adding to. We have some amazing development programs as part of our sports marketing strategy. We have a three layer level approach. We just launched a revised regional or grassroots athlete program that we call the Aspired Collective and that is solely intended to give up incoming athletes across both snow sports and the bike world. Give them opportunities and help them continue to progress in their careers to one day be the next superstar. And so, doing what we can to support the communities and support the activities in sports that we service through supporting talent within those categories you naturally find yourself with your product on the right people more often than not.David:And so, again, it's a little bit... We try and take a maybe a less manufactured approach and we don't go out and say next year we think so-and-so is going to be the best ski racer. So we've got to get our stuff on this person, this guy or girl, and then the next year it's someone else. And so we go after, we look for longer-term partnership opportunities people who truly believe in what they're doing and partnering with us helps them do what they're doing better. That's the stuff we look for.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems like athletes sponsorships, that's like the original [OG] influencers. Influencers are big now, but the sponsorships of athletes, it seems like it was already going on for a really long time. But what seems really hard to do is figure out how it's driving sales or how it's influencing your marketing campaign. How do you guys think about that when you're setting up these partnerships, you're picking out what athletes you want to work with? How do you think about what the end results should be outside of just wanting to work with a great person of course and making it long-term? What are some metrics you hope to achieve with these parties?David:Yeah. I think it's a really good question because I think the rise of influencer marketing has put such an emphasis on follower number and engagement metrics and all these things. And I think what we've seen is that those things are all important and I'll get into how we look at those, but you can't focus so much on just the numbers to where you lose sight of the individual, the personality, really the non-tangible that an influencer or an athlete or any partnership brings to the brand. And we've been very careful to... We have an objective to be results driven and measure what we can and take a data-driven approach of course but we also want to make sure we don't over index on that to the point where we lose some of the intangible stuff.David:So, when we look at an athlete, a lot of times their Instagram follower account or their YouTube page is an important metric and in the equation but they're also three or four other metrics that are equally as important. So we look at personality, we look at opportunity to have a longer-term relationship with this person. We look at how they compete, where they compete, these sorts of things and make a very balanced call on whether or not they should be somebody we should pursue or not pursue. But to answer your question about measuring influence that athletes or influencers have, it is difficult. And there are some data tools that we have, whether it's being smart about how you distribute content for them to work into their communication outreach with specific links and stuff that we can track through our website.David:But a lot of that stuff is specific to a single campaign or a single program and there's really not a great way going back to the equation that we look at, there's not a great way to measure the intangible stuff, but we know it's important and we know it's working and it's a core element of our positioning in the marketplace. And so, we measure what we can, but we also try and be real and be okay with... There's simply some things that are just hard and difficult to measure and we trust ourselves to say, "This is this things that aren't measurable, we can..." I trust our people and we trust ourselves to say, "This is worth the investment and it's providing a lift to our brand in a way that we just simply can't measure."Stephanie:Yes. What are some of your favorite marketing campaigns that you've done that you really remember, or that were most successful?David:Oh, that's a good question. Favorite marketing. The American Downhiller is definitely up there just because it was so different and new, and we'd never produced a feature like them but we've already talked about that one. Earlier this fall, we launched a signature series, excuse me, around Fabio Wibmer who's an incredibly talented mountain biker, whether it's trials or downhill riding or, dirt jump riding. He is arguably the most popular mountain biker in the world right now and we created a signature series with him that we launched earlier this fall. That's really, really cool and we took the approach of, "We're going to create the product for you, but we really want you to create the marketing and the messaging and launch this product in your voice."David:And that was a really fun approach to take to this because one, it took a little bit of the stress off us internally, and two, it allowed for our audience to hear a message that they're used to hearing from us, from somebody different, which I think in a lot of ways was quite refreshing and something different. And Fabio's team is incredible at creating highly engaging video content and his YouTube following is massive. And so, we basically said, "We'll help you make the product. We'll support some of the distribution of the content, but we want you to create that content." And so it was a different approach for us and a pretty fun one because it brought a different tone of voice to a launch than we're used to having.Stephanie:That's really fun. I mean, and a really good point because I can think of so many brands who work with people in their industry and they end up squishing their creativity by saying like, "This is our brand messaging. This is how it needs to be done." And you can tell you're like, "This is not Oprah Winfrey talking. This is not that Oprah does that." I don't know, but they squish the creativity of the artist or the influencer by all their rules. And it ends up not being very organic and then no one's following actually ended up connecting with it.David:Exactly. And the value that these athletes and influencers and anybody that we partner with bring to our brand is they have their own community and we want to help them build their own community. But if we come in and say, "You need to talk to the community that you've built in our voice and in the way that we speak and over-engineer that, one, their community is going to say, "This is stupid. I can tell this isn't new, or I can tell that this isn't the person that I committed to either through a click on follow or some other way." And if we give that freedom to the person to communicate the points that we're trying to get our audience to understand, and in the way that feels natural to them it's going to come off better, it's going to be a better end product in terms of the creative and again, it's going to resonate with the audience more effectively.David:And we lean on our athletes in our roster of partners very heavily because they're good at what they do. And for us to come in and say, "We know how to do what you do better," it doesn't feel right and I don't think it's right.Stephanie:Yes. So you had a good quote that I saw, but I'm probably going to botch it. So you can just tell me if it's wrong. It's all around data and you were saying that the data that you gather around your customers is your true North. And I wanted to hear a little bit about, what data do you look at and is that influencing your products, or how are you using it day-to-day?David:Yeah. I think that you got the quote exactly right so, thank you for that. And I guess maybe a little counterintuitive to my last point of the balance between tangibles and intangibles, but when we do have data available, we need to make sure we're using that. And we are still a growing organization and we are far from totally dialed in terms of our data management and pulling and curating as much data as we possibly can. But we have gotten a lot better at doing that, really the past three or four years. And part of being able to actually use your data effectively you have to start with your systems and your tech stack and we've been really lucky to be able to partner and use Salesforce suite of services with Commerce Cloud, Marketing Cloud, and Service Cloud.David:And the decision to run with those platforms was specifically so that we could start to organize our data and get our systems to speak better together and learn more about our customers. We have all kinds of different touch points with these customers. And the fact that Salesforce Commerce Cloud can speak with Marketing Cloud, and even with Service Cloud when we get a customer service inquiry that scenario really at least gives us an opportunity to maximize what we know about our customers. And so, like I said, we have a long way to go to be where I would say we're A+ rating in terms of data management,` but every day our team gets smarter and we make right the right decisions and we learn more.David:And I think in terms of using the data as your true north and bringing it full circle back to the idea of balance, you got to be able to analyze the data, understand what the data is telling you, but then put that information or that insight into the context of the other things you know about your customer base. I think one of the things I feel very lucky in that, we are a relatively small team, a marketing team of 25 or 28 people across both the marketing team and the digital team. One of the benefits of that is that, we don't have a lot of redundancy and every individual in the organization you naturally have to gain an understanding and you got to know our customer relatively well for almost everything that we do.David:And so, that contextual understanding and knowledge of our customer, coupled with some better data management and insight going actually does give us a pretty good understanding of our customer. What's important to them and how we can deliver on that. Whereas I think a lot of times in bigger organizations I've seen, if you have a lot of not necessarily redundancy, but a lot of very specified positions that do one thing and do one thing very, very well, it's a lot harder to understand the big picture and gain of an accurate profile of the contextual things that go along with your customers. And so, I guess what I'm saying is in a larger organization, it's very easy to look at the data and only the data and it's sometimes hard to bring your head up and look around and say, "Okay. Well, this is what this is telling me about this specific point or insight. How does that connect with what might be happening over here?" And so there's of course the challenges with being a smaller group but I there's also a lot of benefits and that's definitely one of them.Stephanie:Yeah. I completely agree. I mean, thinking about how do you get to that holistic approach where... I mean, I've been at larger companies before and things get siloed and you have your customer service team over here, and they're probably hearing so many good nuggets from customers about new product features they want, or something that might help the experience better or the unboxing experience. And a lot of times that they just get stuck there and you don't know how to incorporate into your new product launches and stuff. And so, I hear a lot of companies, especially smaller ones that are very quickly growing, experiencing issues like that, where things are all siloed and they don't know how to look at the data, but then also take a step back and use your gut and be like, "That's actually sending us in the wrong direction, or that's not really our customer who's saying that."David:Exactly. Yeah. Being a small group allows us to... Our customer service manager can easily stand up and walk across the room or these days, tap our Digital Director on the shoulder and say, "Hey, three of my team members said this and they're hearing this. What does that mean for what you do?" Those conversations are really, really important. And since we're lucky. It's a little easier for us to facilitate those just because we're a smaller team.Stephanie:Yes. So what digital trends are you excited about? Where are you guys headed over the next three years in the world of ecommerce?David:It's a good question but there's lots of them. I think one of the things that I'm seeing in and we're actually acting on is that, consumers are... Their expectations have evolved to a certain point to where the traditional tactics in terms of driving a sale, there's more options there. I think, you're seeing a lot of brands think about the needs of their customers and really looking at it and saying, we need to be able to add more value than we're looking to extract from our customer base. And to do that, you have to really think about what are the challenges or the struggles, or the other complimentary problems you can solve for your customers on behalf of them to help strengthen that connection they have with your brand.David:And I think what we're going to see is that, we're going to see a lot less mass trends, I guess, in a sense or mass tactics in the sense that brands that are going to be successful are the ones that are going to focus on building a community that is tight-knit has a very meaningful value prop for the members of that community. And ultimately places a little bit more emphasis on lifetime value and holding onto the customers that they have and building a better relationship with them versus turn and burn customer acquisition bring them in, make a sale, move on to the next.David:And so, we're really excited about that because we have a lot of the ingredients necessary to build a meaningful community and we have to do some ideation on this idea of providing more value than we're looking to extract, but it's a new set of challenges and one that I think is a little bit more fun because you're becoming a better partner to your community and keeping hold of that and looking for ways to solve other problems for them and make your brand more appealing and one that they want to connect with on a deeper level. And that's really fun, and so we're excited about that.Stephanie:Yeah. That gets back to the whole idea of long-term thinking. And yeah, I think the companies that'll rise above the rest, especially with so many coming out right now, we're going to be the ones who think longer-term like that. Think how to build that community and really engage your customers. That's not just driven on that quick conversion.David:Exactly. Yeah. And if you look at the mega brands out there right now that are being successful, they're looking at that exact equation, obviously in a different way than we are, but you see brands like Peloton and Lululemon's acquisition of Mirror, they're looking to check a series of boxes, whether it's vertically integrating owning the hardware, developing a reoccurring revenue model. All these things that compliment and go hand in hand with a tight-knit community of consumers that are truly committed to you as a brand.David:Yeah. I think literally Lululemon's one of the most amazing examples because they do such a good job of developing a community, creating these ambassador programs towards, there's one up here on main street, you walk into a store and you look around and the imagery they use our local ambassadors. You look up on the wall and you see your friends up there and it's like, "Wow, one, I didn't know they were in a massive, that's cool." But also to be that smart to actually integrate local ambassadors into their communication and retail is just such a cool thing and makes the brand feel truly invested in this area [inaudible] do that-Stephanie:Yeah. I didn't know they did that. That's really cool.David:Yeah. And so they're all in on the community thing, and I think this acquisition they made of this mirror product is a great way to continue to facilitate that at scale. And it'll be really cool, not really case study, but brand to follow over the next couple of years and see how they continue to evolve because they truly are the best in the biz.Stephanie:Yes. I agree. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round, brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready to go, David. All right.David:All right. [inaudible] this might be tough.Stephanie:I've done a done, I'll have to cut you off.David:Yeah. Cut me off. Don't be shy.Stephanie:All right. What's up next on your Netflix queue?David:Oh, Netflix queue. I don't know the name of it, but there's a film series about the Formula One circuit that has been recommended to me and I wish I could remember the name, but it follows some of the drivers Formula One and it's supposed to be really, really good. So-Stephanie:Drive to Survive.David:That might be it. I think you're right. It saved in our account, which is very helpful. Thank you Netflix. That's the one where we're super psyched to see next.Stephanie:Right. That sounds cool. Yeah. I think someone on our team actually recommended that as well. And I think they told me to watch it from a business perspective. I'm not really sure why. I need to check it out.David:Wow. Well, you have to let me know what you think.Stephanie:Yes. What's up next on your travel destinations when we can get out into the world and travel again?David:Man, that sounds so nice. Doesn't it?Stephanie:I know. That's why I asked it.David:Yeah. My wife and I have been talking about... And we originally were going to do it for a honeymoon, but things didn't work out the way we want it to at that trip, but we still have not skied in Japan. And that is on our list for when things settle down, is to go and Japan such an amazing place and it's such a great culture that we're super excited to experience that a little more in depth than my business trips have allowed. And you would also get an incredible amount of snow. So this seems quite good as well.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, that sounds really nice. And then you can go and hang out in the hot bath with this monkeys. Have you seen that?David:I have seen that. I think my wife might be more excited for that than she is the actual skiing.Stephanie:Oh, I'll go with her then.David:Yeah.Stephanie:I went to Japan and I missed that because we weren't in the right area and that's very sad. I'm like, "How fun would it be to take a bath monkeys?" I don't know. Maybe it's a tourist trap, but either way I want to try it.David:Yeah. It sounds pretty entertaining.Stephanie:Yeah. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?David:Oh, man. I mean, so much. It's a good question. Well, here now, I'm getting ready to take the next level of avalanche certification and understanding how avalanches work so that we can ski and travel through the back country safely. I have some training on that, but there's a lot more that I don't understand. And so that is fresh on my mind as the snow is starting to fall and I'm excited to continue my education on understanding snow pops and risk assessment and making sure that we can [inaudible] snow, but do it safely.Stephanie:I mean, that's a good one. And that is a unique answer. No one else has said that so far. So David-David:Thank you.Stephanie:All right. And then the last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?David:I mean, the thing that comes to mind feels a little bit like a cop out just because it's been so talked about, but I think 5G is really hard to ignore and when that fully rolls out the mobile trends that we're seeing are going to become even more important and pointed. So, it's going to put so much more emphasis on the computer you carry in your pocket rather than the one that you sit in front of it at the desk. We and a lot of other brands are still working on how do you crack that device in a way as meaningful as it could be in maximizing the value to the business that comes from a mobile device. So, I think that's going to continue to become more and more important and it's a tough one to solve.Stephanie:That's a good answer. Or it's not a cop out because no one else has said that so far. I thought you were going to say COVID-David:Oh, right.Stephanie:And then I was going to be like, "No. [inaudible 00:51:09]." So-David:No. I didn't think of that. It's the new normal, I guess.Stephanie:I'm glad. Yeah. Exactly. All right, David. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and POC?David:Yeah. So, come find out more about us at pocsports.com. Can learn more about our product offering, our amazing roster of athletes and the things that are important to us and want to moment just to thank the amazing team of people, not just with marketing but everybody here involved with POC. Like I mentioned, they are as committed as anyone can be to why we exist and that permeates through our business and so many different ways on a consistent basis. And the people here and the talent that they bring and the drive and passion that they bring truly is what makes us an amazing organization. So, would rather say, thank you to them I guess than promote myself, if that option is okay.Stephanie:That option is okay. That sounds great. Thanks so much, David. Yeah. It's been great.David:Yeah. I appreciate it, Stephanie. And great to speak with you.

The ecommerce industry has historically been dominated by some familiar verticals: apparel, footwear, home goods. In 2020, the world of ecommerce exploded to include a few more at the top of the list, including grocery and fitness. One industry, though, hasn’t necessarily emerged as a leader in the ecommerce zeitgeist: home security. But just because you don’t always think about an industry as a part of ecommerce doesn’t mean that it isn’t making waves among its digital peers. The perfect example of this is Ring. Ring was founded in 2013 as a company called Doorbot, which failed to get the investment of any Shark Tank sharks, yet persevered to become a leader in home security before being acquired by Amazon in 2018. Today, Ring is valued at more than one billion dollars and, through its website sales, is bringing home security to customers everywhere. Robin Choe is the Head of Ecommerce at Ring, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he explains how Ring has built a successful business through creating a community of neighbors and what it means to be driven by a shared goal. Plus, Robin touches on his past experience working in ecommerce overseas and what the differences are between the Asian market and what’s happening stateside. Robin also details why he believes that companies that are able to foster a sense of community and safety are the ones that will rise above the fray in the business world.  Main Takeaways:United Nations: China has been ahead of the curve in its ability to build a digital landscape that permeates throughout its society. The country is more adept at creating social connections via technology, building direct, dynamic marketplace models, and optimizing the supply chain. But other countries, including the U.S. are starting to close the gap and create more widespread access to those same experiences.If You Stand for Nothing, What Will You Fall For?: Leadership is critical in any organization, but it is even more important in one like Ring, which was acquired by Amazon, one of the biggest companies on the planet. Creating specific team-by-team missions that all ladder up to the top of the organization and then also falls in line with your parent company is a difficult task, but a necessary one if you want to have long-term success and buy-in from all parts of the company. Having those shared missions also sets up the possibility of setting measurable goals and a true north to strive for and build toward.Avoiding the Upsell: Customers don’t want to be sold to, they want to be offered solutions to real problems. Rather than trying to push products on people, a better approach would be to understand each customer’s specific use case and deliver personalized solutions to meet those needs. That technique is much more likely to lead to a sale than simply shoving the newest and coolest products at potential customers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Everyone, this is the Up Next In Commerce Podcast. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, Co-Founder at Mission.org. Today, we're chatting with Robin Choe, the Head of Ecommerce at Ring. Robin, thanks for joining us.Robin:Thanks for having me.Stephanie:So, I was looking through your background a bit. I wanted to start there, because I saw that you had worked previously at Mattel for a while. I think it's a good starting point. Then we go through your background in the world of ecommerce before coming back to Ring.Robin:Sure. Yeah, so I started in Mattel in 2008. My first role there was customer strategic planning, so everything around retail strategies and working closely with retailers to try and drive share of voice, market share, and ultimately, sales and brand growth at the retailers. What was unique around the starting point there was I had a hodgepodge of different channels and accounts. So, everything from Kmart, believe it or not back in the day, which is a much bigger retailer back then.Stephanie:Wow, bringing it back.Robin:Exactly. Also, working across what they call the emerging channels. Part of that emerging channel group, everything from grocery and department stores, drug channel, tried to grow our leadership share there. But Amazon was the one that really stood out to me back then, because it was still evolving, it was still smaller, but it was one that was growing substantially year over year and starting to catch the attention of our leadership and obviously something that I was preaching about internally to make sure that we're aligning and prepping ourselves to grow with them.Robin:From there, for about five years in the US, I moved to Hong Kong. I became the Head of Shopper Marketing or Customer Marketing for the Asia Pacific region. So, did that for about two years, and was also playing a hybrid role where I was the ecommerce excellence, best practice lead for the region, working closely with our regional accounts, our specific local accounts that are a lot bigger today like the Tmalls of the world, Lazadas, which are growing and ultimately trying to drive greater ecommerce best practices across the region.Robin:From there, I pivoted to a general manager role. So, I've had an unconventional career, where I was asked to take on the Country Manager role for Korea. So, everything from leadership across all the various functions, supply chain, finance, accounting to marketing and sales. And then my role expanded from Korea to North Asia. So, I had Japan, Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan, which are all the best food markets, still residing in Korea. My role expanded to the North Asia cluster, again, driving all the sales and marketing commercial activities and leadership there.Robin:And then in 2018, decided to come back after being five years in Asia, and take on the role of Head of ecommerce for Mattel, which was quite unique. It was a newly formed role, where they consolidated a lot of different functions under one leader. Four different pillars that I would say we focused on, the first one was our direct-to-consumer site. So, think about Hot Wheels collector and Barbiecollector.com and trying to drive our sales and our engagement with them. Also, all websites across the world was under the first pillar. The second pillar was CRM acquisition, analytics and design to everything regarding fueling the acquisition efforts, engagement, and also the experiences on our sites. Also, even our retailer sites, believe it or not.Robin:Third one was digital operation. So, this is a team that really was sourcing the best-in-class assets and copy, everything that really fuels a great merchandising experience on our own sites, but also on our third-party retailer sites. So, we are basically managing all the PDPs, the brand stores for our bigger retailers like Amazon and Target and Walmart, and syndicating and deploying assets there. And then the last pillar was around digital customer marketing and digital shopper marketing, where we have a team that was specifically focused on growing our share of voice, our leadership share with Amazon.com, Target.com or Walmart.com.Robin:So, we had this full end-to-end scope of responsibilities where they were all connected. They were all in need of similar assets and strategies. Obviously, there was nuances between what we were doing internally and externally. But overall, it was a challenging experience but a great one, because it was broad, but also, we could see how things were lifting each other up as we're going through the process.Robin:And then about a year ago, made the move to Ring. Really the objective behind that was to go deeper into this ecommerce in general. I think I had a pretty broad role at Mattel. Even in my previous experience, I worked a lot with digital retailers. But being able to just dive into a brand that I love and that I was able to use as well before I even came to the company, just the mission around the brand of making neighborhoods safer, it was just one where everything just made sense for me to go in.Robin:It's pretty clear, and I made this clear with my boss back then. I'm not the most technical savvy guy. I'm not the guy that's going to be doing your coding and development. But I'm a guy that can come in and really drive some vision and strategy in terms of, "What are our immediate needs? How do we serve them? At the same time, how do we identify a vision for the mid- to long-term, so that we can be ready and planful and execute against what we believe to be the evolving changes that will happen and we can embrace them and ultimately deliver upon them in terms of customer expectations?" So, it's been quite a ride. Happy that I'm still here and that things are relatively going well.Stephanie:That's awesome. Yeah. So, I have Ring cameras around my house. Specifically, the one I love is the front camera with the floodlight on it, because it would blast people if they walk by and I think they're a little bit shady. But yeah, I really like Ring. It seems like a very different transition, going from Mattel to Ring, especially when you were for a little bit there focused in Asia, which in a lot of ways, I think Asia is actually very ahead when it comes to ecommerce and social stuff and community building. Were there any best practices that you learned throughout that journey that you're maybe bringing to Ring now?Robin:Sure, I think there is a ton to learn. Like you said, you had a variety of different business models out in Asia. For example, you had the direct model, which was unique. It wasn't normal like it is here in the US with Amazon, for example. But it's one where it's more of a marketplace model, where you're basically the manufacturer that's selling on a respective third-party platform. So, whether it's Timo, whether it's sites in Rakuten, in Japan or even in Korea, where you have coupon, you have such a dynamic and a different approach as it relates to how to connect with a customer.Robin:So, I would say some of the things that I was able to carry over here is you're right, it's very digitally connected in most of Asia. They are well advanced in terms of just being able to stay connected from a digital platform perspective, but also connecting with consumers in unique ways. So, I feel like maybe what they've done in terms of social commerce, for example, or being able to find ways to navigate supply chain challenges or complexities, they've done a great job to accelerate that. I think they've been ahead of the curve in terms of the US for probably another... They're probably ahead by one or two years, but I think the US has been catching up.Robin:So, I would say best practices, back to your question, it's basically how do you connect with the consumer in a way that is relevant for what they're looking for? For example, PDP pages in Asia are very long and extensive, meaning you could scroll for miles. That's what they're expecting there, because they want to make sure that they know what they're buying, that it's quality, that it's a trusted brand.Robin:Here in the US, it's not as long, obviously. You do have some scrolls to get to the bottom of the page, but you're not looking for as much. Maybe ratings and reviews are more important here in the US. It's also important there, but they're also featuring, "Is this the best seller? What's the ranking on the skew versus the category?" So, that's a good question. I think, for me, it's connecting with communities and also just best practices in terms of merchandising and how they do it differently and how we can take some of those and deploy that here in the US.Stephanie:Yes, yeah, I love that. I always think it's something good to watch, because I mean, they are much more mobile first. Whereas a lot of people here-Robin:Sure.Stephanie:... grew up on desktop. All those people actually just leapfrogged past desktop and have just been used to doing everything on mobile. I know especially around the podcasting space, it's an area that we also keep an eye on, because they have so many social functions that they're just used to. That I'm like, "Why don't we have that here?" So, it's always good to keep an eye on what other markets are doing.Robin:For sure.Stephanie:So, let's get back to Ring a little bit. So, Ring's owned by Amazon now, right?Robin:That's correct.Stephanie:So, I think that would be really good to talk about how that relationship is working, specifically around earlier you mentioned leadership. I want to touch on what that transition looked like from Ring being its own separate company to then being acquired. I'm sure you had new teams that you're working with. You had to really distill your mission and the shared values and everything that you had, the influence with the new team or company in general. So, I want to hear a little bit about how you led that or how you're leading it now.Robin:Sure, yeah. I think the beauty of Amazon and Ring is you're taking the strengths of each company and you're marrying them together. I've worked for big companies like Mattel. I've also worked for small companies and startups as well. So, I love the mash up between the two where you're able to be entrepreneurial. You're able to really be nimble and agile in this small setting of what Ring actually started off as, as a startup.Robin:And then taking the successes of a startup and then marrying that up with this successful company, Amazon, the biggest ecommerce company, at least in the US. In the world, I would say at least a leader. It's one where you're able to leverage the infrastructure, the resources, the mechanisms and the processes that they've been able to deploy, and they've been so successful with. So, that's something that I find to be very interesting.Robin:I think with Ring, we still are led by our founder today. He's our CEO and our Chief Inventor. It's one where he does drive a lot of vision and strategy in terms of not only the mission of establishing that, but also everything around products and services. That continues to grow as we speak. In terms of team and leadership, I apply the same model that I do in every circumstance that I've been in. It's like I spoke on earlier, I've moved to three countries in a matter of five years. That's not easy with-Stephanie:That's crazy.Robin:... a family of kids. Being able to embrace change and being able to pivot and establish yourself amongst different cultures and teams and environments and business models is quite hard, even with language barriers as well. So, I think coming into Ring, I applied a similar approach in terms of leadership. It's one where we have to pause as a team, because the team could be in any sort of condition in terms of their history. Whether they were without a leader in the past or they have gone through significant changes where they we're acquired, whatever the case may be, what I typically do is I come in. I spent some time, just parking time with the team and our leadership to say, "Hey, look, how do we get focused on what matters most?"Robin:The first thing I want to do is, "Let's establish a shared mission. Why do we exist? What's our purpose? Why are we here? Why do we get up every morning?" As an ecommerce Team at Ring, it's something that is really critical, because we're moving so fast. There's constant updates and changes and features and functions and migrations and transitions and new product launches, you name it. It's one where we got to slow down and establish, "Why are we here? Why do we exist?" I think that's even more important today, especially as we're navigating this pandemic.Robin:The second thing I also do is look at, "What's the shared vision look like? Where are we going? Where do we want to be three to five years from now?" Also, establishing values. So, we typically pick three values, whether it's trust, whether it's communication, whether it's collaboration. That's really what we center on. We'll spend time and it doesn't take a one-hour session. It takes multiple days and hours and dedication to really grind through and work through the rigor and discipline of saying, "Okay, this is why we exist. This is how it ladders up to Ring's mission of making neighborhoods safer. This is how it ladders up to Amazon's mission of being the Earth's most customer centric company." So that's really important.Robin:I think, because we did that and we do have an ecommerce Ring-specific shared mission, which is something that we identified and we have not just put on a wall, but it's really something that needs to live in our hearts. But I'll share that with you. So, our ecommerce group at Ring exists to communicate to our current and future neighbors, how we provide products and services that protect what is important to them. We do this by building strong relationships with our partners to deliver the best digital experiences for our neighbors. We call our neighbors, our customers, because it's just that important. So, that's really something that I do.Robin:I think what's been great is not only is it the shared mission and vision and values that you build upon and that you live by and you keep each other accountable to in terms of the way we behave and operate day to day, but it also helps to step back and say, "What are our key priorities? What are those big rocks that we need to move in the mid- to long-term? What are those things that we need to do in the short term to address the business needs and the evolving changes that are happening?"Robin:So, I would say that it starts with the team. It starts with having an aligned and a shared... It's not just my mission. It's a shared mission and vision and values. And then being able to build on processes like mechanisms, whether it's quarterly, weekly business reviews and roadmaps, and align that across not only the internal team, but across the organization. So, that you can drive success and make sure that your communication, your execution is as consistent and aligned to all objectives, at least the key priorities, that we deliver on a day-to-day basis.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah, I love that. I've definitely seen and heard of quite a few experiences that are full of friction when companies are getting acquired and on both sides. So, how do you work to garner trust from the employees who are getting acquired, where some people might not really want to go to a big corporation? They might want to stay at that startup vibe. On the other side as well, what do you do to actually get them to be on your side, be ready to move forward with the mission? Because I could see some people being not really on board with it, not really caring about the vision, being like, "Oh, that's just all words." How do you get in the weeds with them to really get them on the same page?Robin:Yeah, back to just leadership, I think it's really important that we stay in... This is my philosophy as well. It's servant leadership. It's also compassionate leadership. So, being empathetic, right? So, there's people that have come from all backgrounds and different experiences. Whether they were at the company before they got acquired, whether they joined afterwards, even for those that we haven't even seen in person post-COVID, it's empathy. It's about caring for people. People are people at the end of the day. They're not machines. They need to be cared for. They're not human doings. They're human beings.Robin:So, my philosophy and approach has always been around empathy and just trying to put myself in their shoes and understanding, "What are their goals? Are they aligned to our goals? How do I listen to them in ways that can really make them feel that they're heard?" That anything that may conflict or go against the mission or the goals or values, let's talk about it. If it's something that you feel differently and you're not aligned to this, maybe you don't belong here. Maybe this is not the right place for you.Robin:But in general, I would say the majority of the team and I guess the team overall, they are bought into the mission. I mean, we defined it together, which makes it powerful. I think that's where you nip that bud up front. You're able to just journey with each other through the ups and downs and challenges, but ultimately, the successes as well.Stephanie:Awesome. So, I was looking through Ring's website before this. I didn't even realize how many products you guys had, because like I was mentioning, I only have these two. I want to hear a little bit about, "What is the customer journey look like on the Ring website? How has it evolved, especially over the past maybe six months?"Robin:Sure, I would say the Ring website is quite unique, where Ring is not just the doorbell. Ring is a multitude of products that have continued to expand to meet and deliver that mission. So, if you look across our products, we have not only doorbells. We have security cameras. We have alarms. We have accessories too that attach to these various devices. We also got the Smart Lighting. We have third-party partnerships. I don't know if you recently heard about the announcement that we made, but we're coming out with even new categories, whether it's Always Home Cam, which is an autonomous drone that flies across the inside of your house.Stephanie:Wow.Robin:You can basically train it to go to certain parts of your house to check on whether your stove is on or your pet food has been eaten or any other areas where you may not have a camera setup. So, I think it's again innovation and evolving to a customer need or pain point that we're trying to deliver on.Stephanie:Okay, I need one of those.Robin:Yeah.Stephanie:Does it stay flying or does it go back to its little nest and then like get up-Robin:Yeah. So, it stays in the nest. And then based on whether if it's alarm, trigger or notification, it'll basically come out of the nest. There's obviously a sound so that you can hear it. We think about privacy always and security and keeping that in mind. It'll go to specific places of your house that you trained it to. So, you have to map that out-Stephanie:Got it.Robin:... and then ultimately, come back to its nest. So, I think it's going to be-Stephanie:Can it go outside?Robin:... amazing. Right now, we're not building it to go outside. I think it's one where it's not an actual design drone to go outside, but for now, we're keeping it in the house. We're calling it Always Home Cam.Robin:But yeah, so new categories, even car security. So, we're starting to expand there, because we're hearing a lot of times from our neighbors as well feedback around, "I wish you guys had car security that connected with my Ring app and my overall Ring ecosystem." So, that's really exciting as well. Whether it's your Tesla or card dash cam to even just the 99% of cars that are out there, just being able to have a peace of mind around bumps or doors opening are areas where you're not feeling as safe. So, that's another cool category we're entering into.Robin:Also, my favorite, which maybe is not everybody's favorite, but I love it, is like our mailbox sensor. So, imagine when you open your mailbox, you get a notification. That's also could be connected to your devices, whether your camera turns on in a specific area where your mailbox may be or your Alexa Echo Show 5 also is all integrated as well. So, that turns on. You can watch it and say, "Hey, Alexa, show me my front door. Show me my mailbox," whatever the case may be. It's one where you can again see and review and just make sure that you have a total sense of peace of mind.Robin:I would say also, to add to that, we also have our subscription plans as well, which you can view, record, share out, and also do professional monitoring. So, I think that's a really big benefit. We've heard countless stories. I also have my own use cases as well where neighbors are feeling so thankful that they had their alarm on at home. So, that they weren't going to show up when the burglar shows up or they're able to record specific event that leads to finding somebody or something or whatever the case may be. There's countless stories that you could find and you can hear about I'm sure when you talk to your friends and neighbors that do have some of our products that just really speak to the power of the brand and products and just the services that we provide.Robin:And then we also have our Neighbors app, which is great as well. That also lives within the ecosystem of being able to connect with your neighbors and understanding who they are and any notifications or alerts around the community and even also partnering with those in your community, especially in a time like this. So, I love the brand. I love the products, but I also love that it lives within this ecosystem that connects us to each other and gives us a peace of mind like never before.Stephanie:Yeah, so that was actually a perfect point where I wanted to touch on, the neighbors piece to it, because I think it's brilliant from a UGC perspective of your neighbors are generating this content that you don't even know them. I mean, I am addicted to watching what's happening to my neighbors. Like the other day, some dude was trying to break into their storage locker, someone's bike got stolen. I sit there. I will watch the video and see if I know the person. Obviously, I never do. But it's really good from a content generation perspective.Stephanie:I mean, I see you guys are using some of those videos on your website, which is very fun. And then also from, like you said, a community building perspective. So, I want to hear a bit more about, "How you guys are pursuing that UGC perspective? Is it mainly just for security, or do you see a community building aspect and actually turning into a social network is how it feels to me?"Robin:Yeah, I think it ladders back up to our mission, making the neighborhoods safer. It's one where it plays a role there. So, whether it's like public announcements around COVID to fires in your area or different ways to have safety preparations around different use cases. Yeah. So, I think it's a combination of trying to serve solutions for specific needs or things that may come up that we want to make sure that we are prepared for and also just connecting us with our neighbors.Robin:As people are home more than ever, whether it's working or school from home or shopping at home, it's one where our neighbors are critical for connection and also a peace of mind and watching out for each other. So, I would say that the Neighbor app definitely is a point of connection and also sharing relevant and pertinent information that can help to make neighborhoods safer.Stephanie:What's the craziest video you've ever seen? I guess that'd be real crazy.Robin:I think the fun ones for me are around animals. When a bear comes and just starts to get on top of a car and wants to get in there to eat some food. Where I live, there are a lot of coyotes. So, I get a lot of neighborhood posts and notifications that there's a coyote roaming around early in the morning. They're all in these different pockets and areas and just make sure I'm not jogging or walking that area during that early time in the morning.Stephanie:That's great. I've also seen little neighborhood tips breakout on my app anyways, where neighbors will argue about whether it was real or not. I don't know if you guys have seen that. It's pretty entertaining. Like I said, it feels like a social network sometimes.Robin:It does. I mean, it just shows you the reality of what people have to deal with and navigate every day. I think, if anything, it's like making neighborhoods safer. That's important to everybody. I have a family. I have kids. Especially as everybody's home more, it's like, "How do we help each other? How do we make sure that we can create a community that is in support of each other and ultimately safer neighborhoods?" So, I find that to be really powerful. It's one where I'll do everything in my power and I'm sure my neighbors will to help each other out during these times.Stephanie:So, maybe let's touch on the subscription model a little bit. So, a lot of people right now are interested, of course, in subscriptions. Everyone is thinking about trying it if it's right for their business. Tell me how you guys are exploring it and maybe any hiccups you've experienced and things that you've pivoted or changed, anything that other people could learn from?Robin:Today, we have two different subscription programs. Robin:I think as we continue to expand in various categories, we're constantly thinking about, "How do we offer a similar experience and that peace of mind, so that you can access and even store?" So, thinking about the car category, I'm sure they're thinking through what that could look like as well there. As we expand our categories and services, subscription will definitely be top of mind as part of the services that we'll look to offer.Stephanie:Yup, how do you position it in a way that a customer will sign up for a subscription before something bad happens? Because I know I've experienced this, before I had Ring, I had a bunch of cameras. I didn't feel the need to store things really until one day when I was like, "Oh, I actually wish I would have access to that." So how do you position maybe the language or the sell to actually get someone to sign up for that subscription before there's a catastrophe?Robin:Sure, I mean, the benefit is like when you buy device and you activate it, you'll get 30 days of free, call it, subscription. That's the Basic Plan. And then you get the choice after that to opt in or opt up to a Plus Plan. So, it's one where we try and make it as user friendly and in the control of the user, ultimately, to make that decision.Robin:I would say also that the benefit of the Ring subscription plan is that you're not locked into some contract. So, you get to basically opt in and opt out in any time of the month. Again, we're trying to create flexibility and user control, ultimately; versus locking them into an annual account where you pay hundreds of dollars, but you're frustrated because you're not being able to use it in a way that's easy and intuitive and also beneficial for your needs. Stephanie:Yeah. During that trial period, the one thing that I oftentimes see happening is that a user isn't interacting with the services until they're done. And then they're like, "Oh, I never got a chance to try it." Are there certain methods that you're trying to get the user to interact and learn and figure out the platform to see the benefits of it before these 30 days are done?Robin:Oh, for sure. I mean, that's really the efforts around different marketing levers that we're trying to deploy to make sure that they see the benefit of turning it on and the different features available. Whether it's a nudge here or email there or different types of messaging, that we're trying to make sure that they are not only purchasing the device, but they're utilizing it in its full capacity.Stephanie:Yup, got it. So, for your guys' website, specifically, tell me a little bit about how you guys think about selling on there? Are you selling mostly on desktop? How are you finding customers? How are you bringing them in? What does that process look like?Robin:Sure, sure. So, obviously, you have direct where they're showing up. I think Ring today is a very prominent brand, or at least, top of mind brand that has awareness, especially in a category that our Founder created, the video doorbell. Obviously, there's other folks that are in this space, but I would say Ring to me would be... That's the first thing I think about is Ring when I think about home security and starting at the doorbell and being across different parts inside and outside your house, for example. But I would say yeah, it starts with the direct.Robin:Also, there's a lot of obviously acquisition efforts to try and be on top of mind in terms of whether it's people searching for our products to different types of campaigns to drive traffic to our site, whether they're social related, UGC, like you said. We do a lot of social care types of activities to make sure that whether it's responding to different posts or things like that will point them to solutions that are being offered on our ecommerce site.Robin:And then as they come to the site, we want to make it as easy and seamless. I think this is the goal of every ecommerce company. As your portfolio grows, how do you make sure that you can train... Not train, so that's probably the wrong word. It's more around, "How do you help them find what they need?" That's the easy question to ask, but a hard question to answer. So, that's one where we're constantly thinking through user research and test.Robin:Yeah, I think what's different today is that a lot of companies are always trying to attach this or grow a market basket. It's all about increasing EOB. Those are all important. But to me, I think what's most important is that you're not just trying to upsell, but you're really trying to deliver on a solution. So, meaning, having a camera at your front door, for example, a video doorbell at your front door, that might be good for the first three months and then you may move to a bigger house. You'll need, for example, a floodlight cam like you have. So, that you feel a greater peace of mind that surrounds your house. So, you have this whole home solution, security solution that you could leverage and apply across different parts of your home as you continue to evolve and potentially move, or you want to just expand.Robin:So, it's one where we're thinking about, "How do we recommend the right products for you? How do we surface the right recommendations for you? How do we help you differentiate which doorbell to buy?" Because we do have quite a number of doorbells now. What's right for you basically, based on your use case? Or even the alarm, how big is your house? We have a quiz on our Alarm page, for example, that people engage with that they want to know like, "This is my square footage. This is how many windows I have. This is how many doors I have." How do we make sure that we get them to a place where we offer up a package solution that they can feel confident about and then purchase and ultimately experience the peace of mind that they were looking for?Stephanie:Cool. So, to talk a little bit more on Ring before we move into general ecommerce, I want to hear how you guys are staying ahead of the competition? Because there are other security companies out there, how do you really show that you're the best?Robin:Yeah, I mean, I can't really speak on the competition. I would say that our priority is to constantly push ourselves to empower users with affordable, effective ways to monitor and secure their home. So, back to the making neighborhoods safer, everything ladders up to that. I think about companies that offer a product or a specific service, and it's just that one thing. They're all about to selling that product.Robin:I think the mental model and the approach that we have is quite different at Ring, which I love, and I totally respect. It's one where we're constantly thinking about the mission. So, everything ladders up to that mission. So, whether it's a new product, whether it's a new service, whether it's a new feature on the site, or whether it's a new experience that we want to deliver that's thinking outside the box, that we're constantly trying to think outside the box, so that we can deliver upon that mission.Robin:That's the way that I would frame it up for you. That's different than just looking at the competition and saying, "What are they doing?" I'm sure we can learn a lot, but it's one where we're really focused on our customers and working backwards from them and ultimately inventing and delivering effective, affordable, easy-to-use products, all in pursuit of delivering on our mission.Stephanie:Cool. Yeah, I'm sure you guys get a lot of customer feedback. Do you implement that as you hear what customers are looking for? Does that have an influence on maybe products or the subscription model or the app or anything?Robin:Yes, we do get a lot of customer feedback. I think what's unique about Ring just even in my past year is our Founder's email is on every product. It's even on our websites. He is probably one of the most customer obsessed individuals that I know. I really respect that about him. It's one where he wants to hear feedback.Robin:We also get feedback internally that we can share and a way for us to facilitate that and hear it, because ultimately, our goal is we want to make the customers feel safer. Whether it's buying our products, calling into our customer service line, whether it's a recommendation on, "Hey, I didn't know that this product was featured with your subscription plan. You had this rich notification that comes with it," how do we surface that up in a way that's clear and transparent on our website, so that people don't have to ask a lot of questions that they can get everything they need in one place?Stephanie:Yup, cool. All right. So, you've been in the world of ecommerce for a while. So, I think you should have a good answer to this. What does the future of online commerce look like to you, maybe in the next five years or so? What does that world look like?Robin:Yeah, that's a great question. I think the reality is, is ecommerce and digital adoption has been accelerating rapidly. I hear all the time from colleagues in the industry, "The past six months, eight months, basically, we're able to accomplish what we would have in five years." A lot of that is just based on the times-Stephanie:Yup, a lot of guests have said that too.Robin:Yeah. I agree with that. It's one where, obviously, to lead in this environment, like in any environment, we need to embrace change. But I would say overall, the ecommerce future is bright. There's capabilities that continue to just wow me. It could be simple things to complex things, whether it's complex things like personalization.Robin:With all the millions of customers that are coming on your site, how do you make it as frictionless and just a great experience for them to get the checkout and personalizing that experience for them based on who they are as a cohort to even simple things. I see the simple things, especially in the area of digital retailing, meaning a lot of folks aren't going to stores as much, obviously. It's one where they're constantly thinking about how to pivot and embrace the change.Robin:I love recently what I saw with Target and how they were able to create this Halloween activation, where they are taking select stores. They're able to convert it into a Halloween environment and pass out some goodies and basically doing it all through the comfort of your car. So, imagine, Halloween is going to look very different this year. So, they're able to provide something that is going to be a memory and a delightful experience for users. But at the same time, they're directing traffic back to the site to say, "Hey, if you can't come to this event, maybe we're not featuring in your hometown. We got everything you need from a Halloween perspective."Robin:So, I think it's one where you can get very innovative and capabilities are there. The times today have forced us to really think bigger and to embrace the change and to pivot and be flexible and agile. No idea is a bad idea. I think any idea is relevant, just because we're trying to figure out how to address customer pain points and needs, especially as the times have evolved.Stephanie:Yup. Yeah, I completely agree. It's been fun seeing the levels of creativity that have come into some of these campaigns. Like you said, people now have to think on their feet and think of new ways to do things that they've never had to before. So, it seems like there's a lot of opportunity coming out not just in marketing, but just the way of doing business in general.Robin:I agree. The other thing I think there is boomers and how they're obviously being forced to shop online. I had my mother call me the other day, because she doesn't shop online as much. She was like, "Can I put my name and credit card number in there and shop?" I'm like, "Of course."Stephanie:No, mom. No.Robin:Yeah, exactly. So, it's one where they're not as digitally savvy, but they're being forced to be. It's one where how do you take the traditional models today, whether it's direct mail or whether it's phone calls or just the ways that are comfortable with the past and deliver that mixed with the digital experience?Robin:So, I'm thinking of things like virtual consultation. For example, the doctor, the hospitals, they call you now and they do a virtual consultation before coming in. It's one where how do you bridge the gap between folks that are coming on to the side for maybe some of them the first time, but getting them comfortable in ways that can help them transition into being fully digitally capable? So, those are things I think that are exciting as well in terms of getting back to a mix of the past but also the future.Stephanie:Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say is that you've got this whole new group of people who never would have been your customers, probably at least not in five years. They're here. So, now, you have to adapt to that. But then I also think what's old is new. I mean, I've had quite a few people talk about direct mail. I think they'd have done some surveys of younger individuals who say they love direct mail, because they're not used to it. It feels very personal. It's fun to get something in the mail. Maybe older generations would be like, "What? That's normal. I'm used to getting catalogs, I'm used to that stuff." But maybe bringing that back might be a way of the future. It's a more personal things than maybe everything digital all day.Robin:I agree. I mean, I think some folks, especially parents, are probably limiting screen time for kids these days. Maybe there's some fatigue behind that, even for the younger generation, but it's one where I think companies are being forced to really think outside the box. Direct mail may be the way to go for certain categories.Robin:I just think about what Amazon has been doing. I was in the toy business before. Everything was digital, whether it was a holiday toy book. When Toys R Us and even the toy industry was disrupted with Toys R Us going bankrupt, that business model being gone from the overall environment, it's one where Amazon started doing physical holiday toy books along with the digital experience. They're trying to make it as they want to have the physical touch to the toy, because kids like writing down what they want for Christmas. They want to flip through the pages. At the same time, Amazon has a PDF toy book where you click on an item, and then it takes you directly to the PDP. You can purchase and add your products there.Robin:So, I just love seeing how things continue to evolve over the years based on the shifting of consumer demands. Also, it's staying true to what the patterns are in terms of behaviors around people using toy books and still wanting the physical touch and also providing it digitally. So, that you can transact and get it in your household in two days or one to two days.Stephanie:Yup. Yeah, completely agree. All right, let's jump over to the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question. You have a minute or so to answer.Robin:Okay.Stephanie:Are you ready?Robin:I'm ready.Stephanie:All right, the first one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Robin:I would say, the supply. What I mean by that is we're always going to have Christmas holiday, which is very big for respective categories. But it's one where the demand has shifted throughout the years based on people or companies being able to pivot and offer up Black Friday in October, for example, and starting early and trying to manage the flow of traffic to the stores and being cognizant of that. So, I would say supply. The second one just to add to that is contactless and touchless experiences, I think that'll disrupt the ecommerce industry.Stephanie:Yes, completely agree. What do you not understand today that you wish you did? It can be an ecommerce or at Ring, whatever comes to mind.Robin:There's a lot of things from that list. I think we're all a work in progress in terms of learning and growing. I have a ton to continue to learn and build on. So, I don't think there's one particular thing I can put my finger on, on that question.Stephanie:All right. What's next on your Netflix queue?Robin:My Netflix is controlled by my kids. So, the next one is The Octopus Teacher.Stephanie:Sounds intriguing.Robin:Yes.Stephanie:All right. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Robin:I value leadership. I have mentors across different areas that I reach out to. So, to me, I love leadership, because companies are about people and not profit in my opinion. This is why I love Ring. It's one where leadership is really what helps you to emerge and helps you to navigate whether it's crazy times or great times. I think that's what holds true and keeps you grounded and successful.Stephanie:Cool, love that. The last one, what piece of tech are you playing around with right now that you're loving? It can be just personally, or it can be ecommerce tools that you're trying out or having success with.Robin:Yeah, I would say that one that I'm being forced to use nowadays is chat bots, just because of the inability to connect with the customer service agents at different companies. I mean, some of that is obviously trying to drive efficiency and automation, but it's one where it is pretty fascinating in terms of being able to try and address your question or your request, for example, into chat bots. And then having this AI, back machine powered on the back end that try and answer and address solutions.Robin:Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Some people prefer just the person on the other side of the phone. But I think the chat bots and that area in terms of automation is something that I've been looking at. That's been pretty fascinating, but also at the same time, thinking through, "What would somebody really need that they want to just call the customer service line?" That's even great as well.Stephanie:Yeah, that's definitely an interesting area. I think I was just reading a research report that was talking about how most consumers would prefer a chatbot, if nothing. If it's no chatbot or having one, they want one, but then also make sure that you get it right where I feel like there's definitely still room to grow to make sure you can at least answer a few questions, especially if they keep coming up. And then if not, okay, go to a human or call or something. So, that is an interesting area. All right, Robin. Well, thanks for joining the show today. Where can people find out more about you and Ring?Robin:Yeah, so you can look me up on LinkedIn. You can go to our website, ring.com.Stephanie:All right. Awesome. Thanks so much, and we'll see you next time.Robin:Thank you.

Some brands are lucky enough to have a built-in audience of millions, while others need to develop an audience from scratch. Chris Mainenti has been on both sides of the coin and he knows that in either situation, once you have a base of potential customers paying attention to you, the next challenge is converting those browsers to buyers. Chris is the Director of Commerce Strategy at Discovery, Inc. where he is helping turn the millions of viewers who tune into Discovery’s channels such as HGTV, TLC, Food Network and more, into customers who buy across various platforms. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Chris explains how he put his history of building audiences at previous companies to work at Discovery — including some tips for young companies on how to utilize newsletters. And he discusses how to use the data you collect as a starting point for creating a more personalized, one-to-one relationship with your audience on various platforms. Plus, he looks into the future to predict how shoppable experiences will be made possible with universal add-to-cart and buy-now options. Main Takeaways:Developing Your Audience: Audience development goes beyond marketing. When you are building your audience, you have to know who you are as a brand and understand the audience you have and want to bring in, and what they want and need. In the early days of a brand, certain audience development strategies work better than others, including tapping into the power of newsletters.Lights, Camera, Take Action: Every company is collecting immeasurable amounts of data, which then needs to be sorted, analyzed and acted on. But the actions you take should be nuanced and applicable to the specific needs of specific audiences. For example, it would be wrong to lump together all of the women in your audience because a woman who is exploring your dot-com presence is likely looking for something different than a woman that is scanning a QR code on their TV. Those segments of women shop differently, and therefore should be approached in unique ways after the data tells you what they each want.Dreams of a Universal Cart Experience: Many believe the future of ecommerce revolves around the development of a universal cart experience. Every business wants to create shoppable moments and engage with customers across many different platforms. But getting to this nirvana means you also have to remove all the friction points.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles co-founder of mission.org. Our guest today is Chris Mainenti, the director of commerce strategy at Discovery Inc. Chris, welcome to the show.Chris:Thank you, Stephanie. I appreciate you having me on and talking all things commerce here in the current climate that we're in.Stephanie:Yeah. I am very excited to have you guys on. I was just thinking about how long Discovery channel, and all the other channels, HGTV, and Food Network and Travel Channel have been in my life and with that, I want to hear a little bit about your role at Discovery. I mean, it seems like there's so much going on, so many digital portfolios that you guys have over there, and I think just a lot behind the scenes that an average consumer wouldn't even know. So, I'd love to hear what you're up to at Discovery. What is your day-to-day look like?Chris:Sure. So, I would say, first and foremost, for commerce specifically in the digital media space, we're probably slightly different than a lot of others. We're really multifaceted in terms of how we work, and who we work with across the org. Obviously, like you said, Discovery is huge, has a ton of major, major worldwide brands. So, we actually sit on the portfolio wide level with our lifestyle brands, and we're really in the weeds with them on the day-to-day basis. And, that really starts with, obviously, our editorial teams. That's our bread and butter, that's our voice and our authority in this space. So again, that's really where we begin, and that's obviously where we're doing our content output, and producing all of this great shopping content for our different audiences, and again pulling our experts from all of these different brands to come together.Chris:So again, folks are really getting the full spectrum of expertise in all of these different categories. And from there, it just really starts branching out into other groups. So, we work heavily with our ad sales and branded content teams, where we work on much larger partnerships and deeper integrations which we can talk about today as well. We have a licensing team, where we work on licensed products, and we take our learnings that we're seeing on our shopping content on a day-to-day basis, and analyze that, and then speak with licensing to see where there may be some room to actually create a new line with one of our partners.Chris:We also, believe it or not, and I know you don't know this, we have a video games team at Discovery, and we work closely with them as well on trying to find those shoppable moments, and again bringing our brand and our voice into those games when they're being built. So again, we're always serving the reader no matter who or where they are, and again pivoting as necessary. So, those are just a few groups, and obviously our marketing and ops, and audience development teams were heavily embedded with as well when it comes to promotion.Chris:So again, there are just, I would say, a lot of areas that we focus on. I know in the beginning it was always all about, commerce is part of diversifying your revenue streams at a digital club. But, we see it more as now, we're trying to diversify our commerce stream into all of these other areas. So again, a lot of exciting stuff has already happened, and we're working on some cool stuff too as we head into next year. So, a lot of exciting stuff in an area that's obviously blowing up for a variety of reasons.Stephanie:That's a lot going on there. It's actually really interesting because you just mentioned video games, and I just did a recap episode with one of my coworkers for the first 50 episodes of this show, and the one thing I was bringing up was like, "I think there's a big opportunity in having shoppable moments in these worlds or video games." And, we were mentioning Unreal and Epic Games specifically, that I hadn't really seen that yet. So, it's interesting that you guys are starting to explore that arena, because it feels like that's something of the future, but it's needed, and that's where everything's headed.Chris:Yeah. And again, I can't stress enough. I mean, our portfolio is just so suited for so many of these different, avenues that we could always find something where, again, we're not being gimmicky just to say we're there. This is our bread and butter, and we're making sure that we stick to our tried and blue, into who we are, and not shy off too much, and again just try to say, "We did something here or there." Really making sure we're always serving our audiences and giving them what they want on the platforms they want.Stephanie:Yeah. Which I think that's a really good jumping off point, then because that was actually my one biggest question I had of how do you strategically think about what an audience wants without disrupting the content? I mean, it seems so tricky, because you see a lot of shows, and whatever it may be where you might have product placement in a show or a movie, but it might not actually uplift sales, because it wasn't done correctly. Where I was also just talking about the Netflix original, the organizing show where they partnered with the container store, and how they had an instant, I think was a 17% uplift in sales after that show aired. That worked, and many others don't. So, how do you guys think about making those shoppable moments, and actually having it work?Chris:Sure. First and foremost, I think, you have to be honest and say, "Look, not everything is going to hit." And honestly, it's not always meant to always hit. So, I think we go into that, first being real with the current situation, and understanding not everyone is going to want every single thing. We're always talking about integrating, promoting, so on and so forth. So, I would say that's first. Secondly, again, we start with, what's our expertise? What do we believe in? And, what do we want to showcase to our various audiences across all of these different platforms? And then, from there is when we start to really start getting down to the nuances.Chris:And look, we have created what we dub internally as the commerce hub, where we're bringing in data feeds from all different platforms, our affiliate networks, our in-house reporting platforms, social, so on and so forth, bringing that all together. And again, understanding, what are people consuming? And, what is their mindset when they're on social, versus linear, versus a DTC, or our dot-coms. And, really starting to look and pull out trends from that. I always like to say I prefer the term data influenced versus data driven, because you can't just take a dashboard of data, and sort in descending or ascending order, and say, "Okay. Whatever is at the top or bottom, do or don't do." And, call it a day.Chris:We focus much more heavily on insights, and use that data as a jumping off point, but then do very, very deep analysis, and pull actionable insights out of that for all of our different brands and teams for when they're creating new content, or when we're optimizing old content. Again, wherever that is. And then, I think lastly with that comes, how do we visualize that to the audience. On digital.com, is it more about, again, really simple to read, simple call to actions to buy items. Again, on linear, what is that? A QR code experience? Is it some type of more deeper integration with a smart TV company on our TV E experiences? Is it more deeply integrated where you can actually tap to purchase within the app? So on and so forth.Chris:So again, there's just a lot of things that we're looking at. We never make it cut and dry, that's probably because personally I don't think anything is ever cut and dry, especially this space and shopping behaviors across, not only brands but the platforms those brands are on, and that's how we look at it. I know that's a lot, and that sounds a bit crazy, but we do really pride ourselves on, again, using these things as a jumping off point and then really diving in deep and making sure that we're serving our audiences, again, where they like to consume this content.Stephanie:Got it. Yeah. It sounds like everything is very custom, and every channel and project you start from scratch where you start figuring out what your audience might like. But, do you have any internal formulas where you're like, "Well, we always follow this in the beginning." and then, it goes crazy after that, because we find other things out. Is there anything that's similar among all the campaigns or projects that you're working on, at least from a starting point?Chris:Yeah. I think, honestly, it's probably not surprising whenever you're talking about items on sale, or whenever we're talking about certain merchants, or price points, or categories, like organizing and cleaning is always up there for us. We know very specific furniture categories that do very well for us. So, we do have our basic what we call playbooks that we start off with, but like you said, we still are always constantly learning and pivoting as necessary. I think a perfect example is in the beginning of the year, I don't think anyone in this world saw what was coming, so we were doing our thing, and then when everything started to unfold, we got together and we had to pivot. And again, the good thing about Discovery's brands is, again, we are so widespread in terms of the categories that we're experts in, that we were able to easily pivot and, again, make sure we're giving our audiences what they need at that moment.Stephanie:Do you see more companies starting to shift? Like media companies turning into ecommerce companies, and ecommerce companies turning into media companies. I've heard that saying quite a bit, especially over the past six months, but it feels like you guys have been there for a while. Do you see other companies looking to you for maybe best practices of like, "How do I make this shift?" Or, "Should I make this shift?"Chris:100%. I think, the beauty in that is that we can coexist and really do things that benefit each of us. I don't think this is an either, we succeed or they succeeded. This is, I think a space where we can coexist. The way I always like to frame this when I'm talking to our merchant partners, and talking internally, is we're really here to humanize the star review. When you come to us, you're not just going to see, again, this is a four out of five, or this is a five star, item, and that's it from the random ecosystem of the internet. We are heavily focused on saying, "Look, here are the things we recommend, and why." And, I think that's where our partners can really leverage us, and where you're really seeing us shine. Again, we don't have to just throw a bunch of random stuff out there and hope for the best.Chris:Again, given our brands and our standing in this space, we can really leverage our expertise and authority there when growing this portfolio with all of our partners. To be honest with you the thing that drove me to Discovery the most was, "Wow, these are huge brands, with huge audiences, and huge respect. Now, we just got to tie all of that together, and go from the moment of inspiration to action." And then again, that's what we've been working on.Stephanie:That's really cool. With all the data that you were mentioning earlier, since you joined have you seen any changes in consumer shopping behavior?Chris:So, yes. Obviously, the biggest one occurring this year, and that was with online grocery. I think it's no surprise that it's been building up now for a year or two in terms of mainstream, but it never really caught on. It's only a five to 10% of folks are really engaging and entertaining the online grocery space. But then again, obviously, earlier in the year when things started to shut down, and people were uneasy about going out, we did see huge spikes in that space, obviously, on our FoodNetwork.com site. And, I would say that continued for a bit, and did peter out a bit recent months which, again, is obviously expected. So, I think that's probably one of the big ones.Chris:The other thing that we have seen, not so much in terms of major shifts in shopping behaviors, just more increased sales in categories that we already know are performing. So, organizing and cleaning is always been a winner for us, and then as the months went on, we've just seen it doing better for us. I think we do a lot of buying guides where we talk about the best cast iron skillets on Food Network, or the best humidifiers on HGTV. We started to see those things gain more and more traction as we went, and we're attributing some of that to us really getting our audience to trust us, and now know that they can come to us as a trusted resource to really be a personal shopper for them.Chris:And again, we've seen that across the board in all of our main categories. The only other thing I'll say in terms of, not only, I wouldn't say shifts in behaviors, but just something else we've pulled out from the data is that, everyone loves a good deal and good price points, but our audience is willing to spend more, especially when those items are either offered at a discounted rate for a holiday or something, or if we've worked with the merchant to get an exclusive discount for our audience, so we have also seen uptakes in that as well. But again, holistically, we haven't seen any huge shifts outside of, like I said, the online grocery, which again is expected given the situation we've been in.Stephanie:Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I saw for the Food Network, I think you had a subscription platform and you partnered with Amazon. Was that something that was already in the works, or did that get sped up once everything was happening with COVID?Chris:Yeah. So, that was already in the works with our DTC group, and for folks who don't know that's our subscription platform on the Food Network side that we call internally FNK, because it's just easier. And yes, that was in the works, and again we're working more and more in getting that to more and more folks who are really looking to get more classes, get more recipes, just be more intimate with our brand. Stephanie:Yeah. It looked very cool. I was on there looking around at, "Oh, you can follow these chefs and have cooking classes with them, and then you can tell your Amazon Echo to order it for you the exact things you need." And, it looked like it would be really fun to engage with that.Chris:Exactly. It goes back to that 360 approach that we have really been focused on, when it comes to our shopping portfolio.Stephanie:Yeah, that's very fun. So, you've talked a lot about partnerships where you've touched on a bit. But, tell me a little about what does a partnership look like from beginning to end? What does that process look like when you're finding a partner, figuring out how to actually strategically partner with them in a way that benefits both parties? What does it look like behind the scenes?Chris:Sure. So, I think there's really two paths there, there's the partnership stuff that we handle directly with merchants through affiliate networks, and so on and so forth. And, for that we do a lot of research on our end, again we already know what type of product hits, what type of merchants hit. So, one thing we do is take that and then say, "Okay. What are similar merchants in this space?" And then, we'll reach out and discuss the opportunity of working together on that front. And then I would say, on the other side, bigger picture stuff is, again, we're heavily embedded with our ad sales team on much larger partnerships.Chris:And, I think a great example of that is our shop the look campaign with Wayfair, which is a deep integration that spans across linear and digital that, again, was really spearheaded by our sales team that we then came in and assisted with. But, for folks who don't know, basically what this is, when you go to any of our photo inspo on hgtv.com, you'll see a little flyout of all the products within the image that are shoppable on Wayfair.com. And obviously, that's not just a basic integration that you just wake up one day and do. So for that, we came together and we've said, again, "What can we do that is going to benefit both of us, that's going to serve our audiences for the long run, and really make a successful integration here?" So again, that's what turned into shop the look.Chris:It's one of our best partnerships that we have across our dot-coms right now, and it's super successful, our audience loves it. And again, I think It's always starting with, "Well, what is the goal? And, what do we want to achieve from this?" I think sometimes people get too focused on, "What looks cool?" And like, "Let's just do that." We wanted to really focus on, "Well, what's the goal here?" And, what do we think we can create that's actually going, again, to help our audiences that come to hgtv.com be inspired and feel comfortable, making purchases based off of what they're seeing.Chris:So, that's really how we approach these, we're super particular about who we work with, and what that looks like. You mentioned the Amazon partnership, we have a really strong relationship with them as well. And for us, again, it's always looking at the brand and our audiences first and saying, "What makes the most sense for them?" And then, that's when we start peeling the layers here, and figuring out what are those experiences that we could bring to them on different platforms.Stephanie:Yeah. I think that's really smart. Like you said, not to just do something because it looks cool or seems cool, but actually do something that you know the audience will like, and will convert into sales to also help the partner. What are some of the success metrics for the shop the look campaign for example? What did you go into hoping to achieve when you set up that partnership? Is it affiliate based, or what do you guys look for and be like, "Oh, this is a successful campaign versus the previous ones that were maybe okay, or good."?Chris:Yep. So, I think just simply put it, consumption and sales are the big ones. Consumption being, are we seeing more and more folks coming to these different integrations across our platform, and then again how are they translating into sales? Looking at things like, "Okay, so we are getting them to Wayfair.com, but once they're on Wayfair.com what are they doing?" So obviously again, looking at conversions, average order value, so on and so forth. Again, just to really gauge what these audiences are looking like, as the days, weeks, and months go by. I would say, one of the things that we were looking for, especially as COVID first hit was, "Are we seeing an increase, a decrease? What are we seeing in terms of shopping behaviors across our platform?" And again, the metrics we looked at for that was, obviously, click through rates, conversion rates, average order value. Because we even saw in some instances where experiences weren't driving as many views or clicks, but the average order value was much higher.Chris:And again, just goes to show that our audience is a very qualified audience that trusts us, and is willing to spend with us. So, we try to pull out all of these different metrics. I think one of the things with commerce that is either for better or worse, is that you can't just look at one metric and just live and die by that number. So again, that's why we have a handful. And look, we also pivot based on what that platform is, what the experience is, who the partner is, so on and so forth. So, we don't have a one size fits all solution, again, that was done by design. And, that's how we approach these things. And again, just making sure that we stay true to who we are, and we're benefiting everyone involved.Stephanie:Got it. How do you keep track of, if there's a TV viewer who's watching HGTV, and then you're trying to send them to maybe Wayfair to shop that look like, what are the best practices with converting those people, but also keeping track of them in a way that's not maybe creates friction? Are you telling them, "Go visit this URL."? Or how do you go about that?Chris:Yeah. So, totally right. I think, obviously, the most common ways of driving from linear to digital is the QR code experience. And, we're actually working on some of those solutions as we speak and trying to understand, again, what will it take to bring more linear folks from TV down to digital, and like you said, make this a frictionless seamless experience? So again, is that as simple as a QR code, or again is this more about a stronger deeper integration that's a bit more sophisticated and partnering up with folks who can actually understand what is on screen at any moment, and then surface that product on screen.Chris:Again, if you have a smart TV and allowing folks to enjoy that experience, or again, when it comes to TV E we have our go apps that you could log into with your cable subscription. And again, obviously, it could be more sophisticated on your mobile device. So, what does that look like? Is it again, while you're watching it at minute three or whatever, five minutes in, do you surface what is currently being seen in the screen and saying, "Look, shop this room?" And, what do you do from that point down to the device. Can it be as simple as just a tap to buy, or do you have to tap and then open up a new browser window? What do those integrations look like? Again, ultimately trying to find the most frictionless experience. So, I think we're still experimenting with that. I don't think anyone in this space has really nailed that down in terms of what is shoppable TV, or just shoppable video in general? And again, how do we go beyond what just looks cool and turn that into actionable?Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, I think creating a frictionless experience is key, and there's a lot of room for innovation in that area. I'm even thinking about just Instagram, where I'll find a blogger I like and I really like her outfit, and then it's like, "Okay. Well, now go to the link in my bio." And then, that's going to open a LIKEtoKNOW.it app, and then maybe you'll be able to find the outfit. But at that point, it's probably just on the home screen if that new app. And, it just feels like there's so many places for a customer to drop. I guess I was just really eager to look at that outfit, so I stuck with it. But any other time, I probably would been like, "Oh, that's too much work." It seems like there's just a lot of room for innovation around this shoppable moments, whether it's TV, social, video, audio, anything.Chris:Yeah. I mean, I think you nailed it right there. I think Instagram is a perfect example, and that's a platform we're looking at as we speak, and we have some ideas around that as well. Because like you said, our goal here is to, how do we cut out all of these extra steps that are unnatural? Normally, when you see a product you like, you want to be able to say, "Okay. Great. Let me buy that." Not let me go to a bio, let me click this link, let me wait for this page to load, let me do that checkout experience is completely different from the platform I was just on. And then obviously, you're playing around with browser settings and everything else.Chris:So, I think you're spot on, and again that's something we're heavily focused on, again, literally as we speak. And, what does a more integrated Instagram shopping experience look like for Discovery and our partners? So, there's going to be more to come on that soon. But, we are thinking about that, and trying to find, again, these ways to make it as frictionless and seamless as possible. Again, no matter where our audience is consuming our content.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, it seems like if anyone can figure it out, it would be all because it's not like you're trying to put your products on someone else's show, or having to utilize someone else's platform. You have your own platform, you have your own shows, you can build new shows, and try out different ways to influence. There's shopping behaviors. That seems like there's just a ton of opportunity for you to experiment with everything that you all have.Chris:Yeah. No. A 100%, and those are these ad conversations we're having with a lot of our partners as well, and understanding from their world how they see it, and then bringing our world into that, and marrying that together, again, so we can coexist here, and at the end of the day just create a better experience for our viewers.Stephanie:Yep. Love that. So, what are some of your favorite platforms that you guys are experimenting with right now? You said, you were looking into Instagram, but what's really performing for you, and what are some of the more moonshot platforms that you're trying out, and you think it will be good, but you're not so sure?Chris:Sure. Yeah. I mean, obviously, the bread and butter is our shopping content on our dot-coms, those are our top performers. But, I will say some of the more areas of interest, again we already spoke about Instagram. But, another one where we are seeing some really good traction, believe or not, is in the Apple News space, most notably on Food Network. We're getting a lot of traction on that platform, and seeing what our audiences are resonating with the most on Apple News, which I again I know it maybe a shock to some folks, but I think-Stephanie:Yeah. So, tell you more about that. I mean, I have an Apple phone, but I have not opened up Apple News probably since I got the phone, so tell me more about, what are you guys doing there?Chris:Sure. Yep.Stephanie:Because you're the first person who said this.Chris:Okay. All right. Again, understood I know that's not always the first thing that jumps into someone's mind when you're talking about commerce, and lifestyle brands, especially because they name Apple News. But again, I know you don't really use it, but again this is just the basic free version that's included with your device when you get it. And again, we're syndicating our day-to-day content onto that platform. And, we've built really strong audiences across Apple News. And again, it's a similar experience to our dot-coms, just slightly different because it has to fit obviously the specs of the Apple News platform. But again, we just have seen some really strong successes in different areas, again most notably in the buying guide space, or sales events that are happening, and dabbling with pushing notifications for that.Chris:Obviously, with some of the recent shopping events that occurred, we built a push notification strategy around that as well, and it did really well for us. So again, I think that's one of those ones that is also intriguing to us. But I think, again, the high level, we really are trying to be everywhere it makes sense, but also really tailoring our content and strategy based on what that platform is. So, for some of the stuff that's working on Apple News may not make sense for Instagram or vice versa, so on and so forth. So I think, again, those are two areas. And I would say, the last thing that we're really, or me personally is really intrigued by, is this universal cart experience/straight to cart experience that more and more folks are dabbling with. There's a handful of platforms out there that can help publishers do this.Chris:And for folks who aren't familiar with this, it's basically saying, if someone comes to HGTV, or FoodNetwork.com, or tlc.com, and they see an item they like on there, instead of saying, "Buy now on X merchant site." And getting thrown off to that merchant, you could hit buy now, or add to cart, and you could actually check out within our platform, which I think is definitely going to be a big piece of the puzzle for the future of commerce on digital publishers. I think the big question will just be adoption, and then what does that look like. I think, again, Discovery is in a perfect position for this, because folks are already coming to us for this expertise, and know and love our brands already. So, there won't be a lot of convincing in terms of like, "It's okay to check out with us as well."Chris:But again, we're anticipating some shopping behavior adoptions that are going to occur during that process. But again, I think that's an area where you really start to open up a lot of new doors here when it comes to shopping for digital media sites. And, I think that's when it gets even more exciting for deeper integrations with Instagram shopping for example.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I'm excited to look into the Apple News more. And, I was just intrigued by that, because I like hearing things that others have not said yet. Because I'm like, "Oh, that means there could be opportunity there if you know how to work with the platform." Especially, if you can set up a push notifications. That's huge to make it in front of Apple users. And then yeah, I completely agree about the being able to shop instantly from a page. We just had the CEO of Fast on, Domm. And, I thought it was really interesting how he was talking about how every website should have buy now buttons under every single individual products, and he went into the whole thing of, "You actually will have higher conversions." Because of course, I was like, "Well, then you have to get past the minimum shipping amounts, and maybe higher order values, if you let me add stuff to a cart." And he said, "Based on everything they've seen, people will buy more if they can buy it instantly." And, it'll batch it in the background and ship it out after the fact, all together. So-Chris:Yeah.Stephanie:... I think you said it.Chris:Yeah. Convenience is key. I mean, everyone likes convenience, and again that's our hypothesis as well here, that we do plan to see increased conversions by building a more intimate shopping experience across our dot-coms with a lot of our partners.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. So, the one big topic I also want to touch on was about audience development. So, when you guys, you have these huge audiences that you can tap into, but for especially a smaller brand, I want to hear how you all think about building that audience to then eventually being able to sell some products to them as well. What does that process look like? And, how can a new brand do that?Chris:Sure. So, I think first and foremost, I think it's important to understand what is audience development as it relates to your brand and organization. I think the biggest misconception with the term audience development is, "Oh, yeah, it's just another word for marketing." But it's not, and this has been written about it as well. And, I think the easiest way to think about this just in a very basic form is, marketing is more about how you want to look to the world as you bring those audiences in initially. More on the branding side of things, whereas dev is now like, "Okay. So, who are we to the world?" And, really drilling down on understanding those audiences that were brought in and who they are, and then building those audiences through different engagement tactics and community tactics.Chris:So, I think that's always a good place to start, to understand how those two worlds kind of then meet. And then once that happens, to answer your specific question, again start with understanding who your audiences are, and where they are. I think sometimes and probably not so much now, but in the past when I was first getting into this space, I think a lot of people just thought that, "Well, content is content. It could be put anywhere, and it's going to work the same way everywhere. Obviously not the case, even more so for shopping content, and behaviors. So, it's really, again, drilling down and pulling out insights based on, "Okay. Who is my Facebook audience? Who is my newsletter audience? Who is my Apple News audience?Chris:And, really starting there, and once you understand high level who they are, what they like, what they're consuming. More specifically when you talk about newsletters, what type of keywords are working to increase open rates, and so on and so forth, then you could start drilling down on the specifics. Saying like, "Okay. High level, here are the different topics and content archetypes that are working, now how do we build out an editorial calendar with that in mind." Again, with the understanding that we're not just going to set this and forget this across the board. What this looks like in newsletters is going to be slightly different than how we're positioning it on Facebook for example, and so on and so forth. So, I really think that's the key right there, and using data to your advantage and saying, "Okay. Well, here's all the different metrics that we're currently compiling, which ones can we look at, and pull from to better understand what these audiences are coming to us for." And again, working with your editorial teams, and the branding teams to bring that all together and say, "Okay. Now here's the plan for output."Stephanie:Yep. Got it. So, if you don't have an audience, and you're starting really from scratch, where would you start? Because I read quite a few articles, maybe from your past life at other companies about you increasing conversion rates by 60%, through maybe newsletters or increasing newsletter subscriptions? Is that maybe a place that you would start? Or where would you recommend someone brand new, who's like, "I don't really have an audience. I have five followers on Instagram."? What's the best way to acquire an audience and then keep them around to build it?Chris:Yeah. So I would say, if we're talking about limited resources and funding, I do think newsletters are a great place to start. And that's really because, it gives you an opportunity to have this one-on-one intimate relationship with the folks on the other side that for the most part you're not having to be held against what the algorithm is going to decide to show at any given day. Obviously, you have to worry about, spam and junk mail and things like that. But for the most part, if you're running a really clean newsletter list or lists, you don't have to worry about that so much. So, I do think, starting in the newsletter space is a really low budget, friendly way to start growing audiences, and it's really great to use as a gut check to see what is resonating. You could look at your open rates, you could look at your click to open rates.Chris:Again, you can monitor what the churn is and stop to see if what you're producing is causing people to drop off for good, so on and so forth. So I do think, for publishers where it makes sense that is a great place to start. You can obviously acquire new users through a bunch of different audience development tactics, whether it's on site widgets or modals, or do some small paid spend to try to bring folks in, and do the sweepstake partnerships as well. Again, obviously I'm a little biased, just because that is part of my background. But again, over the years, newsletters, again, I know they're not the sexiest platform to talk about, but they have been the most consistent in terms of performance and really bringing your most loyal and engaged users from that platform.Stephanie:Yeah, I completely agree. And, you also get access to quite a bit of data that you don't on other platforms, and if you can figure out how to properly engage with them, you could have newsletter subscribers for years to come, which is everyone's goal.Chris:100%. Yeah. And, I think even to take that one step further, you could even start to get more and more personalized where you get to a point where you're launching a newsletter to half a million people, and no two newsletters are alike because it's all based on past user behaviors that you were seeing within email and the dot-com, and again adjusting that based on different predictive intelligence tools. So again, I think 100% there's a lot there, and if done correctly, and go a long way. I mean look, this has been tried and true in the space. We see a lot of folks who start there, we're even seeing in the news media space a lot of journalists, and editors, and things like that backing off from the larger brands, and going this newsletter route to get their word and opinion out. So yeah, I think email is here to stay, and it's going to be a huge piece of the puzzle moving forward.Stephanie:Yep. I agree. So, you've been in the media world for a while, I think I saw at least back to 2012, maybe even before then.Chris:Yeah.Stephanie:I went as far as I could on your LinkedIn, I think it cut off.Chris:No, you got it. Yeah. I have been in media basically since the day I got out of college. So-Stephanie:Okay. Well, this is the perfect question for you then. What do you think the future of online commerce in media look like? Maybe in 2025 or 2030, what does that world look like?Chris:Yeah. So, I think it's going to be an extension of what we talked about a little earlier about this universal cart experience, and turning digital publishers into this space where audiences can come and also feel comfortable making those purchases. And again, not being bounced off to third party sites, and really being able to start building an even stronger shopping relationship with your audiences, because again with a universal cart experience, also comes a lot more first party data where you could, again, focus on more one-to-one relationships with your audiences, again, specifically in the shopping space, which I think is key.Chris:And, I don't foresee a place where merchants are going to have a huge problem with this, because, again, you're just helping to legitimize their product. Like your previous guest said about increased conversions. I think that's another huge piece of this puzzle. So again, it's really just now, again, bringing this all together, this whole 360 approach and saying, "Look, you're not just coming to us for flat inspirational content, you're now coming to us for the inspiration, and the ability to take action immediately." Again, versus being bounced off to one, two, three other platforms depending on which platform you're on, like your experience with Instagram.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, I love that answer. Really good. So, now that we're talking a little bit about the future, what do you not understand today that you wish you did?Chris:What do I not understand today that I wish I did? That's a that's a good question. So, as it relates to commerce?Stephanie:Yep. Or the world, where you're like, "I really just wish I knew more about this." But yeah, it could be a commerce one, that would be cool too.Chris:Sure. I would say, I think not so much about not understanding this, but more not understanding why it's not better. And, that goes back to, I would probably say, affiliate data, and what that data looks like, and what partners have access to, or don't have access to. Obviously, being a part of many different networks, and merchants being on all different networks and so on and so forth, it becomes, quite difficult to manage all of that data coming in, and really having a platform that can easily bring this all together in a unified way. We do have a really strong partner that we work with to aggregate a lot of this data. Again obviously, it's never going to be perfect, because you're pulling it from all different places, and you have to understand, "Well, how does this platform leverage conversion rates and click through rates, versus this platform?" And again, just like, "What do those measurements look like?" And, the methodology behind them.Chris:So, that becomes challenging. But, I do think that's probably one of the biggest things that I just wish. And, I know it's not easy, hence the reason why it hasn't really been done yet. But, finding a more universal way to bring all this data into one data warehouse. Again, we were working on some stuff along those lines, but just high level, just generally speaking in this space, I do think that's one of the more challenging situations that a lot of digital media folks are in when it comes to with the shopping space.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a great answer. It does feel like a lot of technologies in general started out in that way. Very chaotic, things are everywhere, data is everywhere, and then things eventually end up in a dashboard, or it starts coming together in a more useful way. So, I hope that world comes to be in the future as well.Chris:Yeah. I mean, look, at the end of the day, that's only going to help all parties. It's going to help the audience, it's going to help the media company, it's going to help the merchant, so there's definitely reason to really get this right. But again, then, to do a bit of a 180, I think that's why you're going to start seeing these universal cart experiences take off more and more, because it does make that a bit cleaner in terms of what you're going to have access to and when.Stephanie:Yep. Very cool. All right. So, we have a couple minutes left, and I want to jump into the lightning round, brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. They're the best. This is where I'm going to throw a question in your way and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Chris:Let's do it.Stephanie:All right. What's Up next on your... Well, do you have Netflix? I would say Netflix, and I'm like, "He's going to be like, "No.""Chris:I do.Stephanie:Okay. What's up on your queue? And then, you can also tell me what's up on your Discovery queue?Chris:Fair. So, I'll start with us first.Stephanie:All right. Go ahead.Chris:And, I think this is so obvious, but huge 90 Day Fiancé fans. And, I will say my wife actually started that. I wasn't always, but she was like, "Come on, we got to watch it." And, this was a couple years ago. And, once I started, we have been heavily invested ever since. So, from a brand standpoint, we're 90 Day through and through. So, I think again-Stephanie:I like it.Chris:Yeah. Probably obvious to a lot of folks just because of the success of it, but that is our thing there. And then, she's also actually a huge fan of Discovery ID, it's her favorite channel by far. So, we got both ends of the spectrum there, right?Stephanie:Yep.Chris:Discovery ID, the DLC. But again, that just goes to show the strength of our portfolio. And then, on a personal front, I would say, what we're actually currently watching is the Borgias on Showtime. If you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it. But, it's three seasons, so that's good for me. I'm not a huge binger, but I can get through a three season watch, so we're currently in the middle of that.Stephanie:Cool. I have to check that out. Yeah. 90 Day Fiancé, so I have a twin sister, and she's obsessed with that show, and she's been telling me I need to watch it. And, I've been like, "No, I'm not watching that." So, now that you say you also enjoy it, maybe I'll have to want to check that out.Chris:Yeah. Come on. It's only fitting now. You got to at least give it a shot.Stephanie:Yeah. I think I will after this. That'll be the rest of my day.Chris:Perfect. So, I've succeeded tonight.Stephanie:You did-Chris:I converted someone.Stephanie:You can tell everyone, "I got a conversion."Chris:Exactly.Stephanie:What's Up next on your reading list?Chris:On my reading list. So, this is also probably slightly depressing, but I'm actually currently reading the Plague.Stephanie:That's [inaudible 00:49:47]. I mean, I don't even know what that is, but I'm like, "No." I mean, is it good?Chris:Yeah. I mean, so far, I'm only maybe a quarter of the way in. it's just eerily similar to the situation we're currently in, and obviously this was not written recently. This is old Camus. But yes, so that that's what I'm currently reading. So, not exactly an uplifting read, but I do think interesting to say the least in seeing some of these parallels that, again, just six, seven months ago we thought were just crazy things you would read or watch on Netflix.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, if you enjoy the full read, let me know, maybe I'll check that out.Chris:Will do.Stephanie:Next up, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be?Chris:That is interesting. If I had a podcast. For me, I think I probably wouldn't fall into the current podcasting world that pulls a lot of talent from different areas, and makes that the centerpiece of their podcast. I would much rather try to get in the weeds with folks who are making a difference on a local level. I think especially in this political climate, I think that sometimes gets lost that we think it's only the top that matters, and nothing lower does, which I think is completely false. I think everything starts at the local level. So, I would love to give more exposure and light to those folks who are doing the dirty work on the ground which, again, sometimes gets lost in the standard media cycles, or across social media for example.Stephanie:Yes, I love that. It's also something we're exploring here at Mission is local level podcasts, because I think that's what people are leaning into now. They have lost that also a sense of community with everything that's been going on, and you might want to know what your neighbors or community is up to, and also what they're doing, like you said, on the ground level. The next one-Chris:100%. I think it's super important. Go ahead.Stephanie:Yeah. What does the best day in the office look like for you?Chris:The best day. So, when that was a thing-Stephanie:When you went to the office, and you weren't just in your house in New York.Chris:Exactly. Honestly, the best part about that is, being able to... And, now I feel it even more, is having that change of scenery, and being able to have those face-to-face interactions with folks. I recently read a study where, I think it came out that people were actually working longer hours, and having more meetings, while working from home, because they don't have those passerby conversations in the hall, or going in and out of the restroom, and so on and so forth. Which, again, I don't think people appreciate until it's gone. And for me, that's been a huge piece of the puzzle that's been missing during these times is that, human interaction. I think everyone wants to think that working from home is the future, I'm just not sold on that yet.Stephanie:Yeah. I think the flexibility, maybe, but I think a lot of people are eager to get back and see their coworkers, and have coffee together and whatnot. So, there'll be pent up demand, as economists would say.Chris:Exactly.Stephanie:All right, Chris. Well, this has been such a great interview, where can people find out more about you and all the fun work you're doing at Discovery?Chris:Sure. So personally, you can find me, Chris Mainenti on LinkedIn, and we can connect there if you'd like to chat further. But more importantly, if you love our brands, you know where to catch us on TV. And then, similar to dot-com, HGTV, Food Network, TLC, Travel Channel. We're everywhere and we look forward to continuing to serve our audiences wherever they are, and really helping them through these trying times that we're all in.Stephanie:Yep. And most of all, go watch 90 Day Fiancé, everyone. I mean, I feel like you need that fun.Chris:Exactly. For the handful who haven't yet, including you, obviously.Stephanie:Yeah. I know. Such a veil. All right. Thanks so much, Chris. It's been fun.Chris:Likewise. Thanks so much again. Bye-bye.

Entrepreneurs are, by nature, risk-takers. But most would still think it’s crazy to invest your entire life savings on 300 gallons of rosé. Nevertheless, that’s the true story of how Alix Peabody started her company, Bev. Sold online and in-store, Bev is a made-by-chick alcohol company famous for its canned rosé.  Alix says that Bev’s secret to success is built on some key pillars, the most important of which might surprise you: customer service. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Alix explains why ecommerce brands should be investing heavily into their customer service operations. Plus, she reveals how she is capitalizing on the huge percentage of buyers that come from mobile.  Main Takeaways:Integrate Customer Service into the Company Culture From the Start: Too many companies gloss over the importance of having a good customer service operation that is integrated into the company as a whole. There is a real importance to this team, and it is critical to understand how influential and impactful they are when it comes to new product development or flagging recurring issues that could turn into beasts down the road.The Influence on Mobile: A staggering percentage of ecommerce orders are taking place on mobile (I bet you can’t guess exactly how high this percentage is for Bev!), which makes investing in a frictionless mobile experience a must-do for brands.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host Stephanie Postles, Co-Founder at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Alix Peabody, the Founder and CEO at Bev. Alix, welcome.alix:Thank you so much for having me.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you on. It feels like the perfect environment to talk about beverages with everything that's going on.alix:Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I mean, so much consumption in my world for sure. It's been a little bit of a crazy time.Stephanie:These days, I have to limit myself. Wait, did I just have wine yesterday, the day before, and the day before? I need to chill. I have to pull myself [crosstalk 00:00:39].alix:Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's funny too, because we've got moms with kids working from home and people trying to separate their days and all that kind of stuff. So, I feel for them, but glad we can be here to help.Stephanie:Yes, me too. So, I have read your backstory a little bit of it. You have a crazy backstory of why you started this. I was hoping you could start there where you go through, "What led you to starting it?"alix:So, it's a crazy story. When I first moved to San Francisco, I was 24. I'd been working in finance for a couple of years. I moved out there thinking I wanted to learn a little bit more about the whole startup world and all that stuff. I took a job as an Executive Headhunter helping startups place C-suite level employees essentially. Right when I moved there, I got pretty sick. So, I had a whole bunch of issues with my reproductive health system. I was totally drowning in medical bills. I was trying to figure out, how I was going to pay for all this stuff. I had to freeze my eggs. It was a total nightmare. I started throwing these parties. I was charging tickets for these parties, which people didn't realize I was using to pay down a whole bunch of medical care.alix:I went to a school that was very frat centric. I worked in finance, and I was in tech. I've always cared a lot about gender dynamics and drinking culture and how we interact with one another when our guards are down. I started to notice that there was just a really different energy when you're in a female-owned social space. At that point, I realized that I wanted to do something that addressed that in a way that was positive and fun and approachable. So, I started looking around, realized that I was going to really need a product to sell if I wanted to have a brand and a mission. Alcohol seems like the lowest common denominator. So, I weirdly ended up in wine.Stephanie:At the perfect spot to land. I mean, so tell me a little bit about you come on to this decision that you want to start in the alcohol industry. What happened next?alix:Yeah. So, I knew nothing about booze, I knew nothing about the industry. I really wanted to make a voice for women, and we say, good dudes, in a space where there just really hasn't been much out there. So, I tried to figure out, "How was I going to sell this product?" There's so much legal stuff that goes into the industry in general. It's so hard to get on a shelf, because you have to go through all of these different loopholes. So, I realized that there was a loophole to the system, specifically in wine.alix:The reason for that is basically that if you're a California vineyard, you can have a tasting room and a wine club. So, I realized pretty quickly that I was going to need to have a wine-based product if I wanted to be able to sell online. So, that I could have a proof of concept before trying to get onto the shelf. That's how I ended up with rosé in can as our first product.Stephanie:And beautiful can.alix:Thank you. Thank you so much. It's funny. My cousin's handwriting is actually what's on the side of the can, once our origin logo.Stephanie:That's good handwriting. I would not have known that's handwriting.alix:Yeah, yeah, we had to make our own font. It's funny, but anyways, yeah. Basically, at that point, I realized I had a 401k from my first job, but I'd forgotten about. I cashed the whole thing, bought 300 gallons of rosé. We were off to the races.Stephanie:That's amazing. Where did you even send these 300 gallons of rosé?alix:Yeah. Actually, I wasn't even... Don't tell anyone I said this, just kidding to anyone who's listening, but I wasn't even licensed at the time when I made our first proof of concept. So, I wasn't allowed to sell it. I technically purchased it from a winery under their license as a direct to consumer sale. So, I used the product to go seed investors basically. I would bring it to all of these different parties. And then a couple days later, I asked for an introduction from a friend to a potential angel investor. They'd be like, "Oh, my gosh. That stuff was everywhere." But I actually put it there. So, it was just the hustle is starting together original around the funding.Stephanie:So, since you bought that 300 gallons of rosé for $20,000, have you changed the product? Is it a new different wine now? From where it started, where is it today?alix:Honestly, we hit it pretty well in the beginning. Wine is so interesting, because there's so much chemistry that goes into the profile of making it. So, we basically done a whole bunch of blind taste tests of a bunch of different types of rosé and just went to our winemakers. We're, like, "Build us this backwards." So, there's definitely been some fine tuning and making sure it's as delicious as possible and sugar free and all that stuff. But it's pretty similar to what it was at the beginning. Now we have additional products as well that all have a similar profile but are different varietals.Stephanie:Okay, cool. What's the strategy behind putting it in the can?alix:Yeah, at the beginning, people ask me this a lot, because they're like, "Oh, cans are exploding. This is such a new category." When I did it, it was not normal. It was super hard to find somebody who would even can it. We're talking three years ago before you really saw any canned wine on the shelf. The reason I did it was pretty practical. I had no money, right? So, I was like, "How am I going to make something that is branded, and that people recognize if you pour it into a glass and you don't know what it is?" Right?alix:So, in my mind, I was like, "Well, if I make it almost like Red Bull-esque, where it's a really identifiable can, it's cute, it's Instagram friendly, the product will start to market itself." That's how it ended up in a can't honestly. It was no real strategy at first, but I also wanted to really be able to play against the beer culture, which that seemed to make sense at the time.Stephanie:Yeah, I mean, that seems like such a great way to get that word of mouth marketing working for you, just like it worked in the beginning with investors, but also, having something that people share where it's different. I mean, even thinking about the amount of bottles of wine, I wouldn't think to share one of them or even remember half the time where it came from or the brand that's behind it. So, it seems like a really unique way to get people to share for you.alix:100%. If it's cute enough and fun looking enough and whatever, people want to take pictures with it. They want to be seen holding it. I think, beverage is such an interesting category, because people don't realize how emotional it is. But brands really drive a lot of the purchasing power in terms of what people choose to consume, because it says a lot about who you are. Think about Monster versus Red Bull, Fiji or whatever it's called versus smartwater. It's more emotional than people realize off the bat.Stephanie:Yeah, I love that. So, how are you going about garnering that emotion and developing that community, which seems like a very important part of why you even started this company? How do you do that day-to-day now?alix:Absolutely. I mean, there are so many different ways. I think we really are digitally native brands, which is such an overused term, but we've really been able to build out a community online and get our message across through our social platforms and all those types of things, where people really know what we're about and who we are and why we exist.alix:Originally like last year, there was a lot of event-based marketing that we did, where we had actual events that people could really get to know the brand and obviously that all came to a quick halt in early 2020. But now we have brand ambassador programs that actually have community ways that they communicate with each other. They find people to go out with together, even like housing. It's really become more than just a brand ambassador in the traditional way, but a real community where they are communicating with each other as well as with the company.Stephanie:That's great. Have you seen any success with virtual things? I mean, you mentioned that brand ambassador and building a community online, but are there other things that you took your event budget and moved it over to something new to try out virtually?alix:Yeah, I mean, we've done a few virtual events. I think people got a little tired from them a little early on. I think, where we've seen a lot of word of mouth growth and that kind of thing is actually because of the form factor, it's so easy for social distancing, right? You don't have to split a bottle of wine and use glasses. It's sanitary, stuff like that. We've seen a lot of word of mouth coming from people ordering cans and being able to sit outside far apart and enjoying the same thing, which has been pretty interesting and not something that I would have thought of originally when COVID hit. But that's definitely been something that's worked in our favor.Stephanie:Oh, that's really interesting. Are you leaning into that trend once you started seeing it pop up, starting to create conversations around that and showing, "Hey, look at what our other customers are doing"?alix:Oh, for sure, for sure. In addition to that, in what we call on premise, like bars and restaurants and stuff like that, it's so much easier for takeaway, right? Ordering something, being able to throw a can in a bag and go do your thing has been something that's been helping the category all around.Stephanie:So, when you were building out your ecommerce platform and thinking about building out a shopping experience to sell alcohol online, especially one that caters to women, how did you think about setting up your website in a way that someone would go there and be like, "Oh, I want to order this right now," or "I really feel a connection with this brand"? What things did you implement or personalization did you implement on the website? What things did you build out that really worked?alix:Yeah, I think it's funny, because when we first built the website and my Head of Marketing, who also happens to be my husband... He's awesome. Well, that actually happened second. He was recruited once after we got married. He was telling me, "We have to invest in the website. We have to invest in the website." At the time, honestly, I didn't get it, right? I was like, "Our website looks fine. It's cute. It's whatever." I'm so glad that he did, because it's made frictionless buying... I've started to realize just how important that is. Things like Apple Pay and making sure that the website's easy to navigate has really converted for us.alix:I think the other thing, from an emotional perspective, it's been important for us to really makes sure that who we are and why we are is front and center and easily accessible. That's something that, I think, people start to poke around the website. They start to really get, I mean, I hope so anyway, who we are, and that brings them into the family more. We've seen that our repeat purchase rates are really strong, because people become such advocates of not just the product but the brand.Stephanie:That's great. Because we've talked about this quite a bit, on-the-shelf brands like Bombas or Yellow Leaf Hammocks. There's always this tricky balance between selling the brand and everything you're doing around the brand, maybe the social good aspects or things like that, but then also selling the product and making sure people know the products very good. How do you think about that balance, especially on a website where someone could quickly just come on there, look at something, and then hop off?alix:For sure. My favorite compliment is, "Wow, it's actually delicious," because that means that... We get that all the time, where it's like, "Oh, this is actually really good." I'm like, "Well, yeah. I mean, duh. I'm not going to sell you something that I wouldn't want to drink." But I love that, because it means people don't expect it to taste how it does out of the can. It's great. But I think focus is so important when it comes to that. I think the way that we really try to attack marketing is making sure that the messages that we're sending aren't too many. They're very focused on what we want to do, right. So, for us, it's really Made by Chicks, zero sugar product. Our mission is break the glass, right? That's what we really try to hone in on.alix:I think there's a lot of A/B testing that goes into, "Okay, what consumers are really looking at the products and are buying for the first time, because of the product versus buying for the first time because of the brand and the mission?" I think a lot of the times people are going to buy a product that they're excited about or that they've heard about or that they want to try. If they if they like it, that's just straight table stakes. That's when you start to see repeat and people really start to become evangelists. So, it is a fine line and one that I think is constantly evolving, but something I think the team has done a pretty good job of navigating and just making sure that it's focused.Stephanie:Yeah, that makes sense. The brand can draw people in or the purpose can draw them in, but then you have to have a good product. That's how you get your repeat buyers.alix:Oh, for sure. Yeah. It's table stakes, right? If it's not delicious, it's not actually delicious.Stephanie:Yeah, actually good.alix:Yeah. If it's not actually good, then you're not going to get what you want.Stephanie:Yup. So, earlier, you're mentioning about investing the website. What were some of the biggest changes that you all made? You mentioned frictionless buying, but what other things did you update where you were surprised by increases in the metrics you're watching or performance or buying rates?alix:Yeah, well, everything. I mean, we had to redo the entire thing. For us specifically, there was a lot of programming that had to go to the back end to make sure that everything was compliant, because we are alcohol. There's a lot of legislation rather. There was a lot of build out that had to go into that. alix:And then I think the other things that helps are having things like a chat on the site, where you can reach out to customer service and these types of simple things. We're continuing to expand on that and stuff like loyalty programs, because the repeats are so strong. People want to recommend it to their friends. There's been a lot of different things of that nature. Also, just making sure that the tech stack on the back end is strong, so that we're learning right and evolving as we see customer behavior.Stephanie:So, you built out this new platform. You're trying out chat bots and everything. What kind of metrics are you monitoring to see if things are going well? What do you look at every day or week?alix:For sure, I mean, obviously, top line, we're looking at AOV, average order value. Lifetime repeat rates are huge. We have a subscription service on our website as well, because people really love their wine. So, making sure we're keeping an eye on churn. Things of that nature are pretty straightforward, but I think all of that is really important in understanding the health of the online business and the brand.Stephanie:How do you keep customers engaged? Whether they're in a subscription or they just bought for the first time, what kind of methods are you using to engage with them and keep them coming back and keep them subscribed?alix:Well, we have a fair amount of email marketing that we do that we found works really well. We try to make sure that we have content that's interactive. I think one of the things that really surprised me at the very beginning of takeoff is customer service and how critical that is, right? You can turn somebody from a "Karen," if you will, into an evangelist with a strong customer service team. I think people underestimate how revenue generating that can be. So, that's definitely been a big thing for us.alix:And then in addition, we've been doing SMS and a lot of things that keep us top of mind without oversaturating people's inboxes and having them unsubscribe or anything like that. The other thing that I think is important is just... My husband always says this, "Say what you do and do what you say," right? So, make sure that we are delivering orders on time. If we go out of stock, people will drop their subscriptions, because they got their most recent one later than they thought they would. Now they have too much wine or stuff like that. So, really making sure that the execution behind the marketing is there is so critical.Stephanie:So, I want to dive a bit deeper into that, building out a good customer service team, because I think that's something that's really important that I don't see enough brands investing in. I want to hear how do you go about building a team like that, who can, like you said, turn a Karen into a loyal customer? What kind of training are you giving them? How do you think about building up that team?alix:Yeah, so that team is really at the end of the day, the heart and soul of the organization. I think a lot of places make mistakes and not treating it as such. They're the voice of the brand. They're the literal person that people are communicating with. So, we actually have a policy where anyone who starts especially on the marketing team has to do two weeks of customer service, they have to understand who our customers are, how we talk to them, how we interact. It's critically important. I think that team has to be so well-trained on culture and brand voice and mission and making sure that they're constantly getting better and getting better, right?alix:So, implementing new systems, pulling insights from our customers, seeing what they're asking for, which helps us decide what new products to develop, all of those kinds of things. So, I think a lot of the time, those positions can be undervalued. At the end of the day, that's where you're going to get so much information and so much communication with your customer and so much insight into what you should be building.Stephanie:I can see there being a lot of value too with, like you're mentioning, gathering that feedback and seeing what customers are asking for, seeing what the conversations are, and then doing a full circle back to the team. So, then they know, "Okay, here's what other team members keep having to respond to. You probably will, too," and just using it as a training method as you ingest that data and getting it back to them.alix:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:So, with that customer servicing, when you're getting all the feedback and all the data, how do you go about organizing it in a way that you can make decisions off of?alix:So that is really the team lead, right? She pulls together reports for us on a weekly basis that are major insights. The team under her flag certain things in different categories, whether it's major complaints that we're seeing or major requests or what some of the positive feedback might look like. Obviously, to me, the negative feedback is more important, because that's where the real learnings are going to be. But we have a system of tagging in various categories to make sure that we're pulling those insights into the metrics that we find important. If people are choosing to cancel, why are they choosing to cancel thing, things like that. So, that's reported up. We have consumer insights meeting at least every other week.Stephanie:Yup, that's cool. What are some of the most surprising insights or complaints that you've gotten that you were like, "Oh, I wouldn't have expected that"?alix:Unfortunately, some of the ones that I've found to be the most upsetting are people who like the product but don't agree with how we communicate about the social issues we care about.Stephanie:Oh, I see.alix:Yeah. That's been a tough line, because we're here with a very specific mission and purpose. We are about women and women and men treating each other right and addressing toxic masculinity in a happy way. We're very clear about our communication around things like sexual assault in our industry and date rape culture and all that stuff. I've had moments where people... They're like, "Keep your views to yourself, I would have kept drinking your product otherwise," or whatever it is.Stephanie:Oh, my gosh.Stephanie:Well, I am happy that you guys stood up to those people, because I think there's going to be room for more brands to start speaking up against crazies, because right now, I do feel like a lot of brands actually sometimes get bullied by whoever's loudest on the internet.Stephanie:I think there's a lot of room for more brands to speak up like that behind the decisions that they're making, instead of just conceding to the loudest person on the internet, which might not even present the majority.alix:100%. I mean, the loudest people are the ones that drive conversation a lot of the time. I think brands fail when they try to be everything to everyone. That's not a brand. That's just a thing. We are who we are. We care about what we care about. That's where you're going to be the difference between a product and a brand that has real lasting power.Stephanie:Yeah, I love that. That's a good quote. So, with everything's going on with a pandemic, have you seen buying behaviors change? Earlier, when you were mentioning about reasons people are canceling, have you seen new reasons pop up for why they're canceling that we're different than months ago or why they're buying that's very different than six months ago?alix:Yeah, I mean, six months ago, it was harder to get people to buy alcohol online, right? It's generally you're going from one place to another. It's oftentimes an impulse purchase. You're on your way to a friend's house or on your way to a party. I would say we've seen an uptick in the way people are purchasing our products more than we've seen some of the difficulties that other brands are seeing during the pandemic, because they don't want to go out. This is not something that historically people buy in a forward looking predetermine fashion, if that makes sense. That's changed. They want things at home. They don't want to have to really think about it. They're not going out as much. So, that's been huge for us, where we've actually seen a huge lift in online purchasing and online subscription.Stephanie:That's good. How are you guys leveraging mobile? I know earlier, you had mentioned SMS. How do you think about that, especially when it comes to mobile ordering?alix:We definitely do SMS marketing. Like I said before, making sure that the mobile experience at our website. Honestly, I believe it's about 70 to 80% of purchases are made on mobile.Stephanie:Oh, wow.alix:Which is crazy.Stephanie:On your website?alix:Yeah, on our website on mobile, which is pretty nuts. Yeah. I was really surprised by that that people are buying on their phones, because they're seeing it on Instagram and TikTok and all of these different outlets, where they're sitting on their phone and they're clicking through. So, making sure that process is seamless has been really important.Stephanie:That's huge. That's a very big number. I wouldn't expect it to be that high on your website. So, where are these customers coming from? What are your best channels right now, where you're getting the most customers from?alix:We're really trying to diversify away from just Facebook and Instagram. Though obviously, that's a big funnel for many brands, but it becomes addictive. It can be fickle and expensive. So, we're really trying to diversify different ways that we acquire customers that are more organic, whether again, that's our brand ambassador program, influencer programs. We've actually seen a lot of success on TikTok. That's not paid, because we're alcohol. So, we can't actually advertise on TikTok. So, all of that has to be organic and influencer driven. Funnily enough, I was pretty surprised, but we've seen a fair amount of return on podcast advertising as well.Stephanie:Oh, that makes sense, because podcast listening is up as we know. So, yeah, that makes sense for that to work out well.alix:Yeah. Our email marketing is pretty strong. So, once people are in the funnel, we do see a fair amount of lift with emails. Just making sure that all of it is on brand and the brand voice is really consistent and makes people feel like we're not just a bot, but we're real people that are reaching out to them, we've found to be something that consumers get excited about.Stephanie:That's cool. So, earlier, you just mentioned about influencers and TikTok, how are you going about partnering with influencers? Who do you find to be the best influencer? How do you find those people? How do you work with them? Because we've got a lot of listeners ask about working with influencers and that people don't really understand, "How do you start those relationships? Do they actually have a good ROI? How do you find good ones?" So, let's start with that.alix:Yeah, I mean, it's tough, right? I think we're in a very lucky position, because nobody is going to say no to free product.Stephanie:Okay, that's how you get them in. You offer them free products.alix:For the most part. Do you want to try this out? Here's what we're all about. Here's who we are. Making sure that those interactions are direct and actually a real person, not templating things. Doing your research on what these people are about, who their following is rather, how engage they are. Really doing your homework and being thoughtful in the way that you partner. I'm a huge advocate of quality over quantity. So, I would rather have a longer term partnership with a fewer number of people, where they're repeating rather than just one huge post from a large scale influencer. We've seen bigger ROIs on the smaller people with the higher engagement.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah, I've heard that same theme. Is there a certain level where you're like, "Up until this point, if they have this many followers or less, free product will win them over. And then after this point, then they're just going to be looking for money or something else"? Is there a certain barrier maybe?alix:It varies. It really varies, because I think, for us, people get excited about us for different reasons. As I mentioned before, whether it's product, whether it's the mission and they just want to get behind it, whether it's just being part of the community, right? So, we've seen people want to post and engage for all sorts of different reasons. There isn't really a fine math to it. I would say, the more macro the influencer is, we found the more that they want to get paid. But also, it really depends on who it is. But by and large, I would say that the returns are not as good.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah, that's good to know. So, what is a favorite piece of content that either you've created, or an influencer has created, where you're like, "This is really fun or funny," or drove a lot of purchases, anything come to mind?alix:So, we have a small silly thing that we do. We have this weird sub cult of grandma's drinking Bev.Stephanie:Oh, my gosh. That's great.alix:Which is funny. So, there's this one influencer we've worked with called Ms. PattyCake. She's done the funniest content for us, where she's just this fab grandma. She'll like dress up in full extra clothes and be drinking our cans of wine and stuff like that. So, I mean, that's one of my personal favorites. Whether-Stephanie:That's greatalix:... it's going to drive the most traffic, I couldn't tell you. I mean, another partnership that we did that's been really great is Serena Kerrigan and her Instagram show, I don't know if you're familiar with that.Stephanie:I'm not. Tell me about it.alix:Yeah. Yeah, totally. So, during quarantine, she basically created like the first reality television show on Instagram. She started going on live dates on Instagram Live with random guys from her house. It became such a funny cult following thing, where people were just login. It's actually on Wednesdays at 8:30 most the time just to watch her go on a date, whether she goes on the second date or whatever. So, we sponsored her for her second season. I think that's one of the big things too. The bigger the influencer is, the more brands they're working with. We really like to find people who are fun and own themselves and very mission aligned and empowered that are earlier and up and coming. We found that to just be way more effective.Stephanie:That's great. I need to go and watch that. That sounds really funny. How did you find her? How do you find these smaller people? Because that always seems like the hardest part for me anyways. Think about like, "Oh, go find an influencer, who has a good following. These people will actually want what she has or he has, but they're not too big where they don't ask for crazy things." How do you find those people?alix:That is a great question. The team is really good at that. I'm not necessarily doing this all myself these days, but I would say that it's especially tough for younger brands, because there is such a capacity constraint in terms of time. It really, really is a full time job keeping your finger on the pulse on what's going on social, right? I think it changes so quickly. What people are doing online changes so quickly. I mean, they can change in the day, right?alix:Making sure that you're that you're responding without losing your authenticity, and also, just being engaged with your consumers and who are they following and what are they excited about and seeing if those audiences are like-minded people. It's a lot of keeping your finger on the pulse. Frankly, it's a lot. It's a lot of time.Stephanie:What are you seeing when you sponsor a series on Instagram like that, where it's more product placement, where it might not be something that that person is referencing but she's in the scene; versus the ROI on a platform, maybe like TikTok, where they're probably putting it more front and center? That's what their post is about. What kind of ROI should someone expect when utilizing these two different methods?alix:I mean, honestly, it varies, because a lot of the time in TikTok, it's not necessarily just about what the product is. A lot of the time, it is something that they just happen to be drinking while they're saying something funny. And then they might like off the cuff mention it. Whereas on Instagram, you're looking at more of a hard post. You can track the ROIs with specific codes that you're giving influencers and stuff like that.alix:So, it's something that I think we're really trying to fine tune in terms of, "How do you track those ROIs in an effective way?" But for us, we've seen that TikTok engagement in particular is really interesting, because it's still newer and the algorithms aren't as tightly figured out as Instagram is from what we've started to see. So, the ROIs can be much higher. But again, it totally varies, and it really depends on the content of the person.Stephanie:Got it. That makes sense. Are you working on any new crazy things like crazy marketing campaigns or channels that you're trying out or anything where you're like, "I have no idea if this will work, but we're going to try it"?alix:Absolutely. I mean, we're really trying to build out our own content marketing platforms. We launched a podcast that did quite well, that I was actually the host of.Stephanie:Nice.alix:It's called Made By Chicks. Yeah. So, figuring out we're trying to build out more of, "What does our newsletter look like? How are we bringing value-add content to people? How are we doing it in a way that's not necessarily just sales emails, but really addressing who we are and giving people value outside of our product alone?" Right? So that's one of the big challenges that I think we're going to see in 2021, is "How do we build that in a way that has a strong ROI? What do those ROIs look like? What kind of partnerships can we get involved with?" These types of things is something that we're really going to focus on for next year to get away from the Instagram addiction, if you will.Stephanie:Yup. Yeah, I think it's good to start exploring new things like that. Yeah, we work with companies all the time, who are thinking about building podcast or sponsoring podcasts. It's definitely a good avenue to explore, because it's only increasing. At least podcasting is only increasing, not people listening.alix:For sure, for sure.Stephanie:All right, so let's move over to the lightning round. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Alix?alix:I am so ready.Stephanie:Alright. First, we'll start with the hard one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?alix:What one thing was the biggest impact on ecommerce? I think the biggest thing that will have an impact on ecommerce is the social climate.Stephanie:Tell me a bit more.alix:I think it really depends on what happens with COVID and civil unrest and all those types of things, because that's what really starts to clog up people's feeds. They're seeing a lot of that. So, that's where we see tax increase dramatically is when there's a lot going on in the world around [inaudible 00:44:21].Stephanie:Got it. Makes sense. That's a good one. What's next on your reading list?alix:My reading list?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).alix:Never Split the Difference, which is a negotiation book from I believe it's a CIA interrogator.Stephanie:Yeah, we just had someone else recommend that. I think it was just a couple of episodes ago.alix:Oh, really?Stephanie:Yeah, that's popular book. Definitely check it out now. What's up next on your Netflix queue?alix:Oh, I mean, obviously, The Crown, definitely watching that. The Queen's Gambit was amazing too.Stephanie:Yes, I'm watching The Queen's Gambit right now. It's so good.alix:It's amazing.Stephanie:I have to check out The Crown. I haven't seen that one yet though. I always just take recommendations from our guests. That's what guides my Netflix queue from all you guys, so.alix:Well, yeah, I would love any recommendations, because I feel like the whole world has just straight up run out of Netflix.Stephanie:I know. Yeah, we got to make more content. We need it.alix:Exactly, exactly. Give the people what they want, Netflix and Bev.Stephanie:What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?alix:Can it be about anything?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).alix:I wish I had a better grasp on American history. I went to high school abroad. So, I actually missed my junior year when you're supposed to take American history. I was taking history abroad. So, I actually don't have a great background in that. I really wish I did, especially right now.Stephanie:Oh, that's a good one. I always say history repeats itself. Yeah, it's something I have to-alix:It does.Stephanie:... dive into deeper as well.alix:It does indeed. I wish I were better at reading biographies and historical books, but I'm not.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, hey, there's so much going on right now, but that's a good thing to lean into. The last one, what piece of tech is making you most efficient right now?alix:Superhuman with email.Stephanie:Oh, do you like it?alix:Yeah, I love it. It's definitely helped with my efficiency dramatically. Yeah, I wish I could say Asana. My team uses it very well. I'm a little bit of the slow adopter, but Superhuman has been really awesome.Stephanie:Cool. I have to check that out. Yeah, I've heard so much about it. Maybe something you can check out next. All right, Alix. It's been awesome having you come on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Bev?alix:Absolutely. So, you can check us out at drinkbev.com and follow us on Instagram, @drinkbev. Subscribe to our newsletters.Stephanie:Awesome. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for joining us.alix:Thanks so much.

They say that laughter is the best medicine. For Colin McIntosh, it’s also been a pretty good business strategy. After a couple of fits and starts in business, Colin found himself with no job but quite a few domain names in his possession, all of which were pun-based. So he cycled through what he owned and formed a plan to build a company in a disruptable industry where he could make a splash and earn some market share. What he landed on was Sheets & Giggles, a direct to consumer bedsheets company with a social good component that became the most successful bedsheets company to launch on the crowd-funding site, Indiegogo. Since then, Sheets & Giggles has grown to millions of dollars in sales. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Colin gives the behind-the-scenes story of building Sheets & Giggles, including how he worked backward to build an email list that led to an unprecedented 45% conversion rate. Plus, Colin dives into the pros and cons of selling on Amazon, and gives an exclusive preview of some of the ad copy he’s working on to bring more humor to the Sheets & Giggles campaigns across channels.   Main Takeaways:Going Backward: In order to meet your goals, it’s sometimes useful to work backward. Define what it is that you want to achieve and then reverse engineer the steps you need to take to get there. Navigating the Amazon Waters: DTC founders agree that Amazon is simultaneously the best and worst partner you can have. There are pros and cons to working on the platform, including massive discoverability but also deep cuts into profit margin. It’s important to weigh all the pros and cons of selling on the platform and find the strategy that works best for your brand and that leaves you with more of the pros than the cons. Laughing With You, Not At You: Selling with humor is an effective strategy if you can actually get potential customers to engage. Consumers are reading less and less, so if you are going to use humorous copy, it needs to really resonate, grab the attention of the customer, and get them to keep going along the customer journey. It’s easy to be funny just for the sake of being funny, but you have to remember that the ultimate goal is to sell the product, so there needs to be a call to action.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, this is Stephanie Postles, Co-Founder of mission.org, and your host of Up Next In Commerce. Welcome back. Our guest today is Colin McIntosh, the Founder and CEO of Sheets & Giggles. Colin, how's it going?Colin:Pretty good. Thanks so much for having me today.Stephanie:Yeah, thanks for coming on. I was very nervous about messing that name up. I'm sure you get that a lot.Colin:MacIntosh, McIntosh. Yeah, [crosstalk 00:00:28]-Stephanie:Oh, I meant your company name.Colin:Oh, Sheets & Giggles. Yeah. No, of course. Yeah, sorry. I feel like I've gotten so used to it now, I don't even register it anymore. But yeah, you can call it S&G for short, so that way you're not laughing every time.Stephanie:There you go. I like it. So, before the show started, we were going a little bit through your background, which I think people would like to hear before we get into Sheets & Giggles. So, I'd love for you to kind of start there. How did you come to founding Sheets & Giggles, and what came before that?Colin:Well, a lot came before. It depends on how far back you want to go. I graduated from Emory University's business school back in 2012, and I started my career at the world's largest hedge fund in Connecticut, a place called Bridgewater Associates. And, the founder there, a guy named Ray Dalio, is pretty famous nowadays. And, I got fired in about five months, which was great being 22 and losing your first job in a strange state that you don't know anybody in. And then-Stephanie:What happened?Colin:Well, I was terrible at my job. So, [crosstalk 00:01:33]-Stephanie:Five months is not enough time. How did they even know?Colin:No, Bridgewater is usually... They're famous for two months or two years.Stephanie:Okay.Colin:And so, I kind of had a weird little in between stay, where after two months we were all pretty sure it wasn't going to work out, but they were like, "Ah, this should work out," and they didn't want to really pull the plug. And then, eventually I remember, they were arguing in front of me one day about... I'll never forget this. They were re-interviewing me for a different role inside of the company, and... That's how they do it. You lose your "box," and then they try to find you a new box before they totally get rid of you, because they think you're a culture fit.Stephanie:Yep.Colin:And so, they were arguing in front of me. I'll never forget, these two guys, the two managers. One said, "You know, I think Colin is a six for this role," and the other manager says, "Well, I think he's more like a seven, and I think we should hire him into it." And, they're arguing six, seven, six, seven out of 10. And then, the arbiter goes, "Look, guys. He can't get hired into the role if he's not a seven. If he's a six, we can't give him the offer." And then they agree, "Okay, he's a six-and-a-half, and we'll need to have another meeting on it." And, I just remember I raised my hand and I go, "Guys, let me do this. Today's going to be my last day at Bridgewater." I just couldn't deal with that type of [crosstalk 00:02:50]-Stephanie:Yeah, rating you.Colin:It was crazy. Yeah. And so, that was my first job experience. And, from there I became a recruiter, a third-party agency, recruiting for banks, and hedge funds, and startups. That's where I got into technology, and startups, and software. Taught myself a lot about software development and software engineering, and ended up hiring a bunch of different engineers at a bunch of different companies. And, I ended up hiring myself at one of my clients in Seattle, in a really interesting B2B software space called Application Virtualization, which was really hot in 2014; it's still pretty hot.Colin:And I ended up moving up to Seattle. And then, about a year and a half later, I got an opportunity at a company that I helped co-found with some friends called Revel R, which was a wearable tech product that got into Techstars, which is for those listening, a really famous worldwide accelerator for startups. They give you a $100,000 for 6% of your company, and put you in a room with nine other companies for three months, and give you all the training, resources, connections, and mentorship that you could possibly need.Colin:And so I dropped everything I was doing in Seattle, drove 19 hours down to Denver on a week's notice, and became a Coloradan about five years ago. And, that company... I ended up working there for about two-and-a-half years. We all got laid off at 1:00 PM on a Sunday, as startups unfortunately go. And, it was really sad. We had raised millions of dollars, and we're in Target, and Brookstone, and HSN, QVC Deals, T-Mobile stores. But, that product, unfortunately, didn't have all the legs that we thought it did. And, three weeks after I got laid off xI incorporated Sheets & Giggles, and now it's been three years since that date. And, it is now the longest I'd ever worked anywhere in my career.Stephanie:That's great. So, what is Sheets & Giggles, and how did you have the idea to start it?Colin:Well, for anyone who hasn't heard of us, it's okay; although, I will hold it against you.Stephanie:Very rude.Colin:Very rude. We sell bedsheets that are sustainable, and they're made out of a material called Lyocell, which is made from eucalyptus trees. And so, if you Google or Amazon eucalyptus sheets, we're generally the first results. Lyocell sheets is another query we rank high for. And what our sheets do is, they actually save up to 96% of the water that cotton sheets use, which is about 96%... sorry, 1,000 gallon reduction. And then, they also save in energy, they use no pesticides, no insecticides; whereas, cotton can use 16-24% of the world's insecticides just by itself, as a crop.Colin:They also biodegrade faster than cotton, they're hypoallergenic, they're zero-static, and they're naturally softer and more cooling. So, if you're a hot sleeper, they're the best possible material. The eucalyptus Lyocell is for hot sleepers. And so, it's a really wonderful product. We began manufacturing at about two a half years ago, and we now have shipped tens of thousands of orders. We raised a couple of million dollars in capital, although we are mostly revenue funded, and we grow according to our revenue. And, we are just loving life right now. We're a very socially conscious company, and it's really wonderful to be able to have fun, do good, and make money at the same time.Stephanie:That's great. So, with your company, did you see an opportunity in the market from doing research, or did you just wake up one night sweaty like "Oh, I need to build better sheets. This is [crosstalk 00:06:32]." How did that happen?Colin:So, whenever I hear founder interviews from Brooklinen, or other bedsheets companies... And, I hate to throw Brooklinen under the bus. They're a great company, and I really respect... No, I really respect what they've built. They get $100 million dollars in trailing 12 months revenue. They're a wonderful company. But, their co-founders go on these-Stephanie:However.Colin:... podcasts, then they're like, "Oh, we were staying in these hotel sheets, and we were like, 'Oh, they're so lovely. And, let me find out how expensive they were,' and we were like, 'There had to be a better way.'"Nobody starts a company because they stayed at a hotel. They saw a really good business model. They found a manufacturer who would make really good products for them at an affordable price so they could resell it a higher price, and they went from there. And that's great, and they should be proud of that.Colin:And so, that's sort of, more or less, what happened with S&G, where it was actually a business model play first. And, I'm a big... a big, big advocate of sustainability, and climate change is one of my hot buttons. I've always had a bleeding heart. I've worked at startups trying to end animal euthanasia. My last startup, the wearable tech startup I talked about, we were trying to fight sexual assault and violence. We actually sent out 60,000 emergency alerts, saved a bunch of lives, which was really a wonderful... wonderful thing that the company did. But you know, this company, I really wanted to have a sustainability mission. And so, I kind of sat down and I wrote out my perfect business model with a sustainability mission.Colin:This is a true story. I looked at all the domains that I owned, and I owned SheetsGiggles.com because I thought it'd be a funny name for bedsheets company. I have a lot of pun-based domains that I own.Stephanie:What's some other ones? I want to hear them. Any others come to mind?Colin:I've got a few really good ones, Bodcasts.com...Stephanie:Oh my god.Colin:... B-O D-C-A-S-T-S.com. I love that. I would love to do podcasts for exercise, where you don't have to watch YouTube videos, and you can just have a platform for exercise physiologists and personal trainers to do listening-only routines. I also own SunglassesHalfFull.com for a sunglass company, GiraffeCarafe.com for carafes in the shape of giraffes. I own WorkFromRome.com. Why work from home when you can work from Rome? That's a travel company for remote work. I buy a lot of domains [crosstalk 00:09:13]-Stephanie:So many companies to start, so little time.Colin:Yeah. Romanhemperor is probably my favorite one that I'll probably start one day, a CBD company.Stephanie:That's good.Colin:My nephew's name is Roman, so he'll be my little CBD mascot.Stephanie:Perfect. I like it.Colin:Yeah, I'm sure my sister will love that.Stephanie:Yeah, I think she will.Colin:Yeah. But yeah. To answer your question, a lot of them. I owned SheetsGiggles.com. I thought, "Does bedding fit my criteria?" and it fit perfectly, $12 billion U.S. market growing 10% year over year, highly fragmented, the top five players only own about 27% of the market, and it wasn't fully online at that point. It was still mostly physical retail. I kind of just put my head down, and I fell in love with this brand. That was the other thing, is I just fell involved with the idea of a funny brand in a very boring space, especially if it's a sustainable, premium product and you can still do a funny brand. That's a really hard tight rope to walk, and I really fell in love with the branding challenge.Colin:That was kind of when I put my head down in October 2017. I created a brand, Identity Map, for this pun-based bedding empire, is what I would call it to people. Me and a couple of contractors just designed a logo, and I built my own website, wrote every single word of copy myself, would stay up until four in the morning, writing, wake up at 8:00 AM, start writing again, and just totally fell in love with this weird, little company that I was creating in my bed, in my underwear. In May 2018, we did our crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo, raised $284,000 crowdfunded, love those crowdfunders and have a very special relationship with thousands of people who brought the company to life, and it's all been history of since there.Stephanie:That's really fun. What was your experience on Indiegogo? How did you get found? Because a lot of times on those crowdfunding platforms, it seems like there's so much noise nowadays. In the early days, it was [crosstalk] to get found.Colin:Yeah.Stephanie:Now it's like, "Oh my gosh, if I put something up there, there's thousands of other people trying to raise money for something." How did you make sure that people found your potential product?Colin:Yeah, absolutely. Even in 2018, it was still a pretty difficult task. There were still thousands of projects being launched every single day. 2013, 2014 would have done prime time to do a crowdfunding campaign. That was actually when, fun fact, I'm going to brag a little bit, Brooklyn did their Kickstarter in 2013 or 2014, and they did $236,000. We did ours in 2018, $284,000.Stephanie:Hey.Colin:Yes.Stephanie:Hello.Colin:Basically, there's a few hacks for crowdfunding campaigns. If anyone out there is thinking about doing a crowdfunding campaign, generally speaking, you want to do a few things. First and foremost, you want to set a goal that you can hit on day one because their algorithms reward percentage of goals hit in a period of time. They don't reward dollars raised. You don't want to go too low because then you've set expectations for people that, "Wow, you've blown away your goal, and now I expect the world from this company," but you don't want to go too high either and have a goal that takes you the full 30 days to hit because then you won't trend. For us, for example, internally, we wanted to do $100,000. Externally, we set our goal as $50,000. We thought that we could hit that in a couple of days based on our preparation.Colin:The second thing you want to do in order to come out of the noise is prepare. A lot of people... It's kind of sad. I see them launch a crowdfunding idea for something that maybe is a really cool idea or a cool project, but they don't do any preparation whatsoever, and they don't stop the think that even if they have 1,000 Facebook friends and 30 friends and family and 500 connections on LinkedIn and whatever it is, you just got to always assume a 3% conversion rate with anything, even your friends and family. If you have 1,000 people that you think you can count on, you're talking about 30 people that are actually going to pull the trigger and give you their credit card information when you end up buying. You don't want to rely on the friends-and-family model for crowdfunding. It's just not a good way to do it.Colin:What you want to rely on is an email list. I get asked all the time, "Where do you find your email list? Do you buy it? Do you build it?" The answer is, "You build it." You want to build it and get people to give you their emails who are interested, qualified leads, who are interested in buying into the brand that you're building. What we did was we worked backwards from our goal of $100,000 and said, "Okay, $100,000 in 30 days, generally speaking with the crowdfunding math, you want to make 30% of that on day one." That's just the way the crowdfunding works, big boost in the beginning, plateau in the middle, boost at the end. You want $30,000 on day one. We knew our sheets were going to cost $70 on average, which was a really low price. I really under-priced them. We knew our average order was probably going to be 1.5 units, so $100 average order value. If $30,000 on day one at $100 average order value is the goal, that means we need 300 customers on day one.Colin:If an email list converts at 3%, then that means that we need 10,000 emails in order to get 300 customers on day one. That became our singular focus, singular goal from February through April of 2018 was gathering those 10,000 emails, doing it at an affordable price that would end up translating into a low cost of acquisition, and we ended up spending about $9,000 to gather about 11,000 emails, converted at about a 45% rate, which was really unheard of. That was the first time I was ever very, very-Stephanie:That's really high.Colin:Yeah, I was very, very excited and confident that the crowdfunding campaign was going to go well when we saw the 45% email capture rate. We ended up converting at 4.5% on our email list on day one, and we had a $45,000 day one just like clockwork. Then we [crosstalk 00:15:05].Stephanie:That's awesome.Colin:Yeah.Stephanie:I like the idea of working backwards. I think enough people don't think of, "What do I want my end result to be, and how do I make sure to get there?" Like you said, they rely on, "I have enough friends who will buy," which I've also experienced does not work. Friends and family [crosstalk] can only go so far. Yeah.Colin:People forget. People get busy. They have busy mornings. They forget. You need a big boost all at once to come out of the noise on crowdfunding. We ended up being the number two trending topic on Indiegogo.Stephanie:That's awesome. How did you go about building your email list? Because acquiring emails for the price that you did is very good. Conversions are very good. You can get a ton of emails these days, but a lot of them probably wouldn't be qualified if you don't do it the right way. What kind of tactics did you use to get good emails who are qualified buyers to make sure that they actually ended up converting when you launched?Colin:That's a great question. First and foremost, if you're going to do a crowdfunding campaign, I would recommend hiring a digital agency that specializes in crowdfunding, but I would be very careful about whom because there's a ton of sharks and predators in this industry who will take your $2,000 set up fee, and they'll promise you the moon, right? Colin:There is one agency I'd recommend, my buddy, Will Russell, he's the man, Russell Marketing in New York. And I trust him with my life, so I hired Will. I had known him tangentially through the last place I worked at. And he basically flew out the boulder. We sat down and we white boarded things out February, 2018 about our plan for the crowdfunding campaign. And basically the method was he had these emails from past campaigns that were early adopters, right? There are people who had backed Kickstarter campaigns before, and you can get lists like that in other places. Then you begin to build one, two and 3% lookalike audiences on Facebook. From those lists, you're able to advertise to other people who are likely early adopters. You build a landing page. We use kickoff labs as the software for our landing pages that hooked into our Google analytics. We did a photo shoot all in for $500 with me and all my best friends in Denver, Colorado. We were smoking cigars, drinking whiskey, having fun in bed, playing with dogs, eating pizza.Colin:Basically, whatever makes us laugh is what put on camera. And so, that was what we did in February 2018. We built those landing pages and that content with our first photo shoots, and all the copy that we wrote was just coming from my two fingers or 10. And then we just basically ask people, Hey, do you want to walk into the best price you're ever going to get on the best bedsheets you're ever going to feel? And we had three core value propositions for any crowdfunding campaign. You generally need three core differentiation propositions. One was that it's literally softer and cooler than cotton. And I led with that because I think that people are selfish and won't buy a sustainable product, if it's not better than the unsustainable version.Stephanie:Yep.Colin:Value prop number two was that it was sustainable, and value prop number three was that because I knew how all these retailers worked, and I know the margin share that Bed, Bath and Beyond takes from this category, which was about 40%, the price that you're paying is going to be traumatically lower than the price you pay for comparable luxury, sustainable options in the store. And those were our three value props and it really resonated.Stephanie:That's great. So what is your customer acquisition strategy look like now that's different than maybe what you did with Indiegogo?Colin:Now? I mean, now I have an in-house marketing team, a four person team. They're absolutely wonderful. And Sarah, our VP of marketing, is total genius, and she is someone who on the performance marketing side I think is unmatched. And I basically give her, to be completely honest. I give her free rein at this stage because a founder's skillset is fundamentally different than a CEO skillset. And I'm doing my best to transition from founder to CEO. And part of that is not micro-managing. And frankly, being okay with a much more boring job of facilitating, supporting, financing and managing versus being the creative, being the brand voice, being the copywriter, being the photographer and the videographer, and the Facebook data analyzer, and the Amazon ads creator. I can't do that anymore because it just doesn't scale. And it's also a good way to get talented people to leave when they feel like they're being micromanaged.Colin:So in terms of our actual strategies, basically, it's all direct to consumer on our website, sheetsgiggles.com and Amazon. And we've got a core channels of Facebook, Instagram, Google, and Amazon as our digital spend. We do some podcasts advertising, so definitely get in touch about that. And we also do radio advertising on Colorado Public Radio and a few other stations. And then we've tried direct mail, we tried a few other funky things. Nothing has the [inaudible] that digital tends to have.Colin:And in terms of email strategy nowadays, we actually don't email people nearly as often as we used to. In the very beginning, when we launched them Indiegogo, we'd email people maybe once a week. Now we're probably emailing people once a quarter, which is really crazy for a direct to consumer brand. Like every direct consumer brand in my inbox blows up my inbox four times a week like, buy more of our shit.Stephanie:Yeah.Colin:And so, the amount of sandal emails that I get from my sandal company is ridiculous. And so we email people only when we want them to take a very specific action. And that leads to open rates of high forties on emails, which is really, really stellar for open rates on emails. And we make sure that we use that wisely and we don't over innovate people.Stephanie:Great. So what are your favorite channels right now? Of everything that you just mentioned, is there any channel that you're maybe putting more budget into, or that you're seeing higher success with?Colin:I can find a row ad that beats Facebook, I will pull all my Facebook tomorrow, but they're definitely the highest row ads. Branded search is obviously the thing that's going to be best in the long run. So we spend a lot of time building up our brand recognition with people and our brand affinity, and then just earned media is really good too. We have a PR agency that we employ and we got covered yesterday by the Daily Beast, and we've been covered by Real Simple and Forbes and Apartment Therapy. We are Apartment Therapy's Best at 2020 picks, and a lot of other publications. We've been on today.com and Amazon gives us a lot of shout outs because of the philanthropy that we do.Colin:And so that's been really helpful to have Amazon as a big partner in our PR and in our discovery and exposure. So overall I would say Facebook and earned media are probably our two biggest ones. And then I do love radio and podcasts advertising, and I'm trying to figure out how to make that funnier for the listener. And so I'm currently recording a few new podcast ads that I think are going to be really funny and not in a really bad Geico, not funny at all way, but actual bits on the radio.Stephanie:Oh, give me a bit. What are you working with it? [crosstalk] You can practice in here. There's no judgment.Colin:Okay, great. Great. Great. So, I've got one that I think is pretty funny in a meta sort of way where I want to go on a podcast and be like, hi. Have you ever the CEO of Harry's do his thing?Stephanie:Yeah.Colin:I'm not famous, but I'm the CEO of Harry's.Stephanie:Yeah.Colin:So, I'm like, hi, I'm Collin, the CEO of Sheets & Giggles. That's probably means nothing to you, which is depressing, a little sad. We're a young company, we're based in Denver. We do some good stuff. Oh, we sell bedsheets. I should probably lead with that. God, how does the Harry CEO do this? And basically go with that. And then, somebody in the background goes 10 seconds. 10 seconds? And I'm like we sell eucalyptus bedsheets. They're sustainable, they're softer than cotton. Go buy them at sheetsgiggles.com. And that's the end of that. And then-Stephanie:That's actually catchy. I like that because a few people were like, "What is this dude going to say?" And then [crosstalk 00:24:12].Colin:And then I want to record four or five versions of that, that run on different roles. And basically, it moves from okay, they gave me a second take, I got it this time, I'm calling, CEO Sheets and Giggles, again, we sell bed sheets. I feel like that's obvious, maybe not that obvious. I don't know. If it was just called sheets without the giggles, it'd be a little more obvious. And then somebody's like, "10 seconds. And I'm like, "Oh, my God," and then get back into it again. And so, I think that those little bits and the nonsequiturs and stuff is very much our comedy and the trailing off and the tangents. And so, I really want to write a few different bits like that, that really flow with one another.Stephanie:Yeah. That's pretty great. I can't wait to hear this on radio or other podcasts as I think those will all do well. How do you-Colin:Well, you heard it here first.Stephanie:Yeah. You heard it here first everyone. This is special. Do you ever feel like selling through humor, like that could hold you back in a way because sometimes I see some brands where that's so much their angle that it gets away from the product because they get so funny where you're like, "Wait, what are you actually selling again?" So, how do you guys balance that to make sure you're still selling, but in an innovative, new way, that's setting you apart from others.Colin:It's actually a stellar question. I see that all the time when I see an Instagram brand that's just pure, pure, pure, funny without ever talking about their products in any way or ever talking about their reviews or their sustainability. It's just, "Buy our shorts because we're funny." It's like, "Dude, they're polyester shorts. I'm not going to buy your polyester shorts because you're funny."Colin:But the thing that we do, I think, that is not unique, but I think is smart is we basically let our reviews do the talking for us. So, we always say we're not serious, but the sheets are. And that's our mantra is, "We don't need to sell the sheets. Our reviews sell the sheets. Our stats sell the sheets." The amount of water we save, the pesticides and insecticides we save, we plant a tree for every order. We've got 3000 reviews on our website, 4.8 stars and we don't hide our one star and two star reviews like a lot of other consumer brands do. We have 845 reviews on Amazon as of this morning, I check every single day. I personally, as a CEO, read every single review that comes in, we have a Slack plugin that pulls every single review and puts it in front of my face. Every time we get one in live time on Amazon, we're four and a half stars on Facebook. We're 4.7 with 116 reviews, I think.Colin:And so, that type of cross channel confidence in terms of review score is really important for the consumer. And then the sustainability, the planting of a tree for every order, we give you 10% off if you donate your own old sheets to a homeless shelter, we pledge 1% of our profits, time products and equity, to local Colorado charities, we've donated $40,000 this year to Colorado COVID-19 emergency relief. The stuff that we do, I think, really speaks for itself and we don't have to really broadcast it and advertise it, even though I just obviously did. Instead, we just lead with the humor and then let people read more if they want. And truth be told, I think the most limiting thing, and you kind of touched on this, is that not everybody's a reader, especially when you're talking about Americans, no offense to... I'm a red blooded American, but we don't read.Colin:My old mentor at a toy company told me with the packaging that they made, their mantra is, "If you're asking people to read, you'll lose." And so, that's probably the biggest limiter is that a lot of our comedy is very copy heavy. A lot of other people are more visual or meme based or slapstick and video and we're much more copy heavy. And so, I like to think about us as sort of like the Seinfeld of bedding brands, which is probably the first time that's been uttered in the sense.Stephanie:Was that your Techstars YC type of thing of I'm [crosstalk 00:28:24]?Colin:We went to Techstars. They were like, "Why should we have a bedding company in Techstars?" And I think I was just like, "Why not?" And they were like, "We never thought about it like that." I was like, "You're in." But yeah, the Seinfeld of bedding companies was the way that I always thought about it. It's a brand about nothing. And by being a brand about nothing, it really is a wonderful way for us to be a brand about everything. And that was the beauty of Seinfeld, which has been my favorite TV show obviously, is that every episode was about its own little subtopic and it didn't have to have this overarching theme or story arc and that's great with us.Colin:As one day, we can donate $12,000 to the world wildlife fund to save koalas, another day we can donate 40,000 to COVID-19 relief, another day we can donate thousands of dollars to Black Lives Matter organizations, another day we can plant 20,000 trees for last year's orders. And we don't have this kind of overarching thing that we push on people. Instead, they can just discover it if they want to keep reading. And then we just try to make the copy entertaining for them to find their way through our website.Stephanie:Cool. Yeah. That a good way to explain it and yeah, it makes sense how you guys do it. So-Colin:It is limiting though. Yeah. When you're building a brand, you want 20% of people to really viscerally resonate with it and 80% of people to either be mad or react poorly to it and then that way you just don't want indifference. That's the biggest thing is I see so many direct to consumer brands that are the next shiny thing like, oh, the best apparel you'll ever buy or the best makeup or the best food or... They're all the same exact brand and it bores me to tears. The white stuff on the white walls with the white curtains and the white room. It's like, "Oh, just kill me."Stephanie:Yeah, completely agree. So, how do you encourage reviews? You were mentioning that you have a ton of reviews. How do you get people to follow through and actually take the time to give you your reviews?Colin:We, again, brand about nothing. We give to people who leave reviews free pizzas every week for no reason. It's just like, why pizza? I don't know. Pizza's good. You like pizza.Stephanie:Okay.Colin:Does it have anything to do with bedding pizza? People eat pizza in bed, I guess.Stephanie:I guess. Yeah. Not on my nice eucalyptus sheets though I'm not going to.Colin:But they wash real easy. So, it's okay if you spill on it. No, but that's how we incentivize it is we just say, "Hey, if you leave a review there's a chance that you'll get two free pizzas this week," and who doesn't like free pizza? Communists that's who. And so-Stephanie:That's good.Colin:Actually, we say capitalists that's who. And so, we do bits like that and it's stuff like that, that I think really drives people into the brand and we get people who are like, "This is insulting. I'm a capitalist." And I'm like, "It's a bit. It's just a joke about free pizza." And so that's how we incentivize it mostly. And then again, really engaging copy. The subject line is good, we have high open rates on our review request emails, we make it so you can leave the review directly in the email-Stephanie:Oh, that's a good one.Colin:We don't overpay for review software. I can't stand the stuff that's thousands of dollars a month. There's really good, affordable review software out thereStephanie:Okay. Cool. How did you think about moving on to Amazon? Because we've had a couple of [DVC] companies on here. Quite a few. It's been kind of mixed where, some were very excited about Amazon. Some were like, "Oh, I pulled it off because it kind of walked down the brand and they could end up just copying us and making a white label," and so there's been a lot of mixed thoughts around working with Amazon. So what led you to wanting to utilize their platform? Obviously they're featuring you and helping you guys. What are your thoughts around having a DVC company on Amazon?Colin:Amazon is Amazon. It's the best partner you'll ever have and the worst partner you'll ever have, and exists simultaneously in the same platform. That's why you hear this sort of debate or dichotomy amongst founders where it's like, "Do you want to go on Amazon?" And the pros, right, are that 54% of Americans. I think it got up to 60% of Americans now start a product search on Amazon. They've trained the American populace to, when they're looking for a thing, go to amazon.com. Google has lost that battle. So it's a massive channel that you really... It's hard to avoid. You have discoverability. You could have channel dominance. If you rise to the top of search returns for a high volume query, you can just rack in cash with no marketing spend whatsoever for years, until somebody tries to come beat you.Colin:It's a really solid platform. The negatives are, of course, that Amazon is extremely impersonal as a company. It's hard to get people on the phone there, although we do have account managers now. It is expensive. They take 25 to 30% margin share all in when you end up calculating all the fees from most companies, which is a really, really difficult thing for a lot of small businesses to swallow. And then you wind up paying them more to advertise on their platform to give them money when you make a sale. And so they're really a good partner in a number of ways. They do a lot of really great things for their companies, especially the small business partners, but, overall it's a love, hate relationship for sure. And you can do one thing wrong and get your whole listing pulled. And that can be really devastating too. So overall for me, it's a no brainer because if more than half of your audience is starting a product search on a specific channel, you have to be on that channel, period. End of story. Even if you're only doing it for branded searches.Stephanie:Completely agree. So earlier you were talking about working with PR firms and different efforts to bring new people, new customers, your way. How do you guys have your backend set up to be able to handle fulfillments? What does your tech stack look like to be able to handle any surges in demand?Colin:Surges in demand are actually difficult because we... forecasting demand is extremely difficult. Forecasting inventory becomes extremely difficult and then you put those two things together and you have to forecast the amount of people that you have working on your warehouse team at any point in time, which is extremely difficult. And so when it comes to surges and spikes, we use a 3PL, third party logistics provider, to ship out all of our orders, both on our website and on Amazon. We do FBM on Amazon, instead of FDA. And so we are basically able to get probably 99% of orders shipped out within a 24 hour period. But when we do have big surges and big backlogs it can slip to 72 hours.Colin:Because we are paying for that 3PL service, they have a finite amount of people that they've forecasted to work on their thousand brand partners that use that share of the warehouse space. And it's a really good way to lower the cost overall and then, from a small warehouse operation, if you're running it yourself, because you're sharing that square footage with so many other brands and you're sharing a labor with so many other brands And it's a pretty straightforward process nowadays in terms of hooking up a 3PL. In the beginning for the first six months of the company, October 2018, through March 2019, I was shipping out almost every box myself, along with a three person team in Denver, Colorado. We had our own warehouse space. We had 1,000 square feet. We were packaging. We could do maybe 250 orders a day maximum. And we were just trying to burn getting through holiday 2018 on our own.Colin:It was crazy. It was so [crosstalk] hectic. I think I shipped 3,000 boxes in a three week period at one point in time with the rest of my team, working eight hours, 10 hours a day in the warehouse and buy everybody lunch every day. And it was great. I had my customer service team and they're working with me. But yeah, it was definitely a lot easier when you can scale up and use the 3PL. I do have some companies that run their own warehouse space that actually wind up with all the headaches that it comes with and migraines that it comes with. They do wind up having a lower cost per unit in terms of fulfillment than we do, so there's certainly something to be said for that. But I think that right now we're at the 3PL stage for sure.Stephanie:Yep. That makes sense. All right. So we have not too long left, so I want to jump into the lightning round because I think you're going to have some good or funny answers. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud, our sponsors. They're amazing. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Colin:Okay, I am ready.Stephanie:The first one, what is the biggest fail that comes to mind when starting a DTC company that you experienced?Colin:Our packaging was white in the beginning.Stephanie:Were they white walls, white sheets, white, everything?Colin:Well, the inside of the packaging was purple and the outside was white and our packaging was lovely. We've got knapsacks to wrap the sheets. We've got free eye masks in every box. It's lovely, but a white exterior box sent through any postal service is going to get absolutely destroyed. And so that was our biggest fail was we had boxes just showing up, just beat the hell from FedEx and UPS. And so we moved in, I believe, mid 2019 to purple exteriors and that's allowed us to be much more efficient with our shipping and have much better customer experience.Stephanie:That's good. I can imagine getting a white box knowing that my bedding is inside it going, "Ooh."Colin:So dominant. And so to protect them, we had to put them in polymailers and in brown cardboard boxes, which was a huge waste for the first six months of the company. Then we had people call us out on it. And I was like, "You're absolutely right. This is so dumb. Why are we doing this?" And so now we just slap a label on the outside the purple box, and it's so much better. Additionally, minor thing, a major thing, minor thing. We had plastic in the packaging for the first six months. We had a little plastic sheet around the sheets, inside the knapsack to keep them safe from any water damage during transit. And we got a couple of complaints from people, really peaceful, nice messages saying, "Hey, I expect better from a sustainability company to put plastic in the packaging, even if it's recyclable." And we said, "Okay." And so we removed the plastic and we put in tissue wrap now for a final piece of protection.Colin:So there's no markings on the sheets and I'm thrilled to have eliminated that plastic. And now we've shipped out tens of thousands of orders since then with zero plastic packaging. In fact, we're the only bedding company in the world that does not vacuum seal our comforters. And they ship in the box, ready to go directly on the bed straight from the box, no [crosstalk]Stephanie:That's a good one. I hadn't even thought about that and I was wondering, are you having issues so far? But if not, more people should be doing that.Colin:Oh, we had issues. We just replace them. I mean, it costs us money. Like, FedEx will rip a box and then they'll get damaged and they'll leave it outside in the rain and it'll get waterlogged, so we definitely have that. But I think it's worth it to eliminate the amount of plastic that we're saving.Stephanie:Yeah, I like it. What's up next on your Netflix queue?Colin:Oh. I just started Ratched last night.Stephanie:How is it? It looked too scary for me. I'm a baby.Colin:It's really good. You know, I like stuff like that that's a little trippy, and I'm also a huge Marvel nerd, so I'm still waiting for the next Marvel series, but that's a Disney Plus queue, so I cannot wait for WandaVision and Falcon and the Winter Soldier and the Mandalorian is in two weeks as well, so I'm really excited for that.Stephanie:You've got your whole queue set up. I like it.Colin:Yeah, I love that stuff.Stephanie:Well, I know you said people aren't readers, but do you have anything coming up on your reading list?Colin:Yes, I just started The Everything Store.Stephanie:Oh yeah, that's a good one.Colin:And I'm surprised I haven't read it yet, actually. And then I'm trying to read things from a different cultural perspective because I'm a 30-year-old white male who mostly hangs out with other 30-year-old white males, and so I've got a book called Well Behaved Indian Women that I just started, and I'm really enjoying it. It's a totally different cultural perspective. It's so foreign to me and it's really, really great to immerse myself in that. I'm trying to think if there's anything else up next, but those are the two big ones.Stephanie:I'll have to try that out. What new E-Commerce tool are you trying out right now or having success with?Colin:Oh, it's something called Gives, and I should get a referral fee for this. So basically, it is this really cool thing we're doing to allow people after check-out to, when they buy something, donate a percentage of their order to the charity of their choosing. So we just tested it this week for Prime Day because we had our Prime Day deal on Amazon and we had a lower percentage off on our website, but you could donate another percentage of your order as well, so it actually ended up being a lower price but part of that was donated versus just going into your pocket and it's really cool.Colin:So now, our customers moving forward, and we're trying to decide if we want to do this on only special occasions or on every day type of thing. We already plant a tree for every order, now we're going to be able to let our customers donate 10% or so of their order to a cause of their choosing, which I think is a really, really, really cool thing. I just don't know if the dollars and cents work, so we're testing it out to see what that looks like.Stephanie:Awesome. Yeah, that sounds like a good implementation. All right, the last one. What one thing will have the biggest impact on E-Commerce in the next year?Colin:I mean, COVID. COVID.Stephanie:Yeah.Colin:No doubt. It's blown up E-Commerce on a five to six year type of acceleration. The amount of people that are shopping online versus in-store has just grown dramatically, and I think that we're probably in this environment for another six to nine months, until a vaccine rolls out. So I think that this trend will only continue, and I think that that's been a huge, huge driver of E-Commerce, and I think it's both good and bad, obviously. It can be good for some industries and horrific for others, so it's also a logistics issue and everybody listening out there, when you order stuff online right now, it's not the brand's fault if it takes 14 days to get to you. FedEx is trying to hire 70,000 people by Christmas and they're not going to hit that, they're going to hit like 50,000, which is still a dramatic undertaking. But the amount of packages going out right now is just overwhelming the system that we built.Stephanie:Completely agree. All right, Colin, this has been a fun interview. Where can people find out more about Sheets and Giggles and yourself?Colin:I'm a pretty private person. I do have a public Twitter, Colin D. McIntosh. Sheets and Giggles, you can google us. SheetsGiggles.com is the website, no "and" in the URL, just SheetsGiggles.com, and then we're also on Amazon if you want to search for our sheets there, Sheets and Giggles. [inaudible] the sheets. And yeah, pretty easy to find. And then our social media, SheetsGiggles, so it's just at SheetsGiggles everywhere. On Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. We're a good follow, we promise. We don't just post pictures of our products all the time and people buy them. And we just hit 10,000 followers on Instagram, which I'm really excited about. We've never paid for a single follower, so it's fun to build this organic following over time.Stephanie:Oh, that's great. Yeah. Nice work there.Colin:Thanks.Stephanie:All right, Colin. Thanks so much for coming on. This has been a blast and we'll have to have you on again in the future.Colin:Thanks so much for having me. Hopefully when I come back on next time, we're a much bigger company and everybody's like, "Oh yeah, I've heard of that brand."Stephanie:They will have heard of it. Don't you worry.Colin:I hope so.