unSeminary Podcast

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with marketplace leader Chris Ducker, who is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and runs several businesses. As churches find themselves more a part of the online world, there is continually a challenge to connect with people in a meaningful way. Listen in as Chris shares how to add a personal touch to your interactions online, encouraging conversations instead of simply shouting into a virtual megaphone. P to P versus B to B or B to C. // We may be familiar with businesses and organizations being business to business or business to consumer, but Chris says the new focus should be people to people. At the end of the day, whether you are signing a deal with a company, or serving a community, people are attracted to you because of who you are and what you stand for.Attract and repel. // If you want to build a community and attract a certain segment of people, you have to be you all the time. You will equally deter and repel people away as you will attract the right people who want to be part of your tribe. You can’t please everyone. Understand what you want to be known for, where your unique traits lie in respect to that, and how to lean into it.No comment left behind. // When someone sends Chris a direct message on social media or email, he believes strongly that they should get a direct reply from him because they’ve taken time out of their day to reach out to him. He tells us it’s wrong to ignore someone who has come to you in this way, seeking help. Take the time to respond to them even if it’s only a quick response.Connect to the people. // Ask people open-ended questions about how you can serve them. When you are willing to have a conversation beyond a yes or no answer, you’ll be able to receive information that can help you offer value to others using your unique skillset as a leader.Online communication is not a megaphone. // Pastors may not be willing to get into as many conversations online because it can be overwhelming and feel like a time-waster. But for those who decide to do it, Chris believes only good things can come from it. It’s a way to build relationships and you never know when one little question you answer can change a person’s mindset. As leaders we need to take seriously the responsibility to show up for our people. Have a virtual staff. // Build a virtual team to support on the online communication and social media part of the church work. It will give you more time in your day to focus on aspects of your work that only you can do when you have others handle the repetitive tasks.Hire the staff type you need. // If you’re looking for someone who can work a few hours a week on tasks you’d like to delegate, you can find individuals through freelance sites. The other way is to hire someone for a role rather than just a task, which can be done through Chris’s site virtualstafffinder.com. Virtual Stafffinder will go through the process of going through applications, vetting and testing them so you don’t have to focus on it.One person is not the same as three. // A common misconception Chris notices when hiring virtual team members is the assumption that one person can successfully do three people’s jobs. That doesn’t work with local staff, and it doesn’t with virtual staff either. Another big mistake is assuming that because a person has a specific skill that they don’t need guidance or onboarding of any kind. Training always helps set new team members up for success. We’re giving away 10 copies of Chris’s book, Rise of the Youpreneur: The Definitive Guide to Becoming the Go-To Leader in Your Industry and Building a Future-Proof Business – two copies each to five people. You can be entered to win by responding to any one of the emails unSeminary may have sent you. Learn more about Chris and his work at chrisducker.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey, everybody! Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in today. You know every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire and equip you. Normally those are church leaders, but today we’ve got a great marketplace leader – guy by the name of Chris Ducker. If you do not know Chris, I don’t know where you’ve been. He’s a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author. He runs all kinds of businesses. He’s a great guy and today we’re looking forward to tapping into his expertise. Chris, welcome to the show. Chris Ducker — Thanks for having me, man. It’s great to be here. Rich Birch — This is going to be fun. I I really appreciate you doing that. Why don’t you fill out a little bit of the story – kind of give us the Chris Ducker story. Tell us a little bit more about yourself. Chris Ducker — Well born or raised in England, hence the weird sounding voice. Rich Birch — Ah, nice. Love it. Chris Ducker — Um, and um, you know I’m a dad of 4, a husband of 1, and um, a business owner. Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Ducker — You know I have been in I guess you know ah, been in the marketing and the sales game pretty much my entire career. Ah set up my first business in 2004 which is still rocking and rolling to this day. Second business 2010; still rocking and rolling, and the third business in 2015; still rocking and rolling. Rich Birch — Love it. Chris Ducker — So we’re doing good. And I got to work every day and get to work with people like you and other smart people and helping them figure out how to become future proof, and build great followings, and monetize their expertise and all that sort of stuff. And that’s what I’m all about. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. You know if you’re a longtime listener of unSeminary, you’ve you know you heard throughout the years where we’ve tapped the expertise of marketplace leaders like Chris and we’re super honored that you would take some time out to be with us today. But listeners, I want you to stay tuned until the end because we’re giving away a great giveaway just for people who are listening in and you’re going to have to listen to the end to find out how to get it, so stay tuned. I don’t want you to miss ah, you know where we’re headed today. But Chris, you know one of the things I love—there’s a lot I love about you – there’s a lot I love about your how you position yourself; I think the coaching you do is just so solid—but one of the things that I’ve heard you talk about is how organizations have gone from b to c, and b to b (so business to consumer, business to business). You you you like the word P to P – can you explain what does that mean? P to P – what do you mean when you say that? Chris Ducker — P to P is people to people, right, or person to person. Whatever you want to call it. Um I think you know, and I’ve I’ve been and I’m still involved in the b to b and the b to c spaces, obviously. Um I’m a brick and mortar guy. You know I built my businesses from the ground up. I have facilities. I’ve got venues. I’ve got buildings. I’ve got you know all that sort of stuff that goes along with building businesses, you know, in a brick and mortar setting. But also I’ve noticed that as I’ve kind of leaned into the online world, ah pretty much since like 2010 for anything other than just kind of like checking email right, and watching you know cat videos on Youtube or something, like I’ve noticed that generally there’s a lack of personality online. There’s a lot of ego online, but there’s a lack of personality in the way that we build our followings, we attract the right people into our ecosystems and ultimately get to the point of being able to provide value to the people that we want to serve, and inspire, and work with. Um and so P to P was something I came up with um, actually it was an ad lib on stage in LA… Rich Birch — Nice. Love it, as the best ideas are. Yes. Chris Ducker — Oh my god, dude, like in 2014, I was on stage in LA and it just came to me. And I dropped it and I said you know it’s no longer about B to B or B to C. It’s actually about P to P. It’s people to people. We want to do business with big brands because of the security that comes with it and all the rest of it. But at the end of the day when you sign a deal, no matter what that might be, almost all the time you’re going to be signing that deal because of the person that you’ve been with working with. Rich Birch — Hmm, that’s so true. Yeah, that’s so true. Chris Ducker — And it’s very very true whether you’re serving you know a community ,or whether you are trying to sell something, or whatever it is, those people will attract towards you ah because of who you are and what you stand for – and what your principles are like, and and the value that you can bring. So that’s really what P to P is. It’s all about creating that personal touch. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I know one of the kind of tropes in our world in the church world is if someone decides that they no longer want to work in the church, they they seem to always become real estate agents. I don’t know why that is, but I think it’s because of this P to P thing. It’s like that that’s one of those areas where it’s a highly personal kind of sales environment. It’s it’s about building relationships. But I sometimes think maybe, and this is why I want to lean in with you because I I love this perspective coming from a business sales point of view for us to think about in the church world, I think sometimes we think like well we’re just kind of people people and like that maybe really isn’t what could use to help build our organization. So I’d love to hear more… how are you coaching say what could seem like an impersonal business, like an online business, where they’re you know they’re selling stuff across the internet. How do you coach them to be more personal? What is what does that look like? I’d love to try to figure out what that looks like for us as we’re thinking about what we’re doing which is obviously super personal. Chris Ducker — Yeah, well you know first of all, um, it comes down to the leader. It comes down to you first and foremost. Like you’re in charge of this. No one else is in charge of this. So the words that come out of your mouth, that’s down to you. Rich Birch — Right. Chris Ducker — The actions that you take, that’s down to you. So you know if you want to build a community, if you want to attract the right people, if you want to sell to them online, you’ve got to be you all the time. You can’t try any smoke a mirror act. Like you’ve got to be you all the time. And actually Chris Ducker — Admit and accept to yourself that in the action of doing that, you will equally deter and repel people away who don’t like you or your vibe… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Chris Ducker — …and at the exact same time attract the right people that do want to be part of your tribe. Right? So it’s… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Chris Ducker — …your vibe will attract your tribe. I call it marketing like a magnet, right? You attract the best and you repel the rest kind of thing. Um, and honestly you’re in control of that – all the way. Rich Birch — So good. Chris Ducker — Hands down with the content that you create. Like this podcast right now, by you doing what you’re doing on the show whenever you hit the publish button, people will listen in, and they’ll say I like Rich. I like what he stands for. I think I can learn from this guy. I’m going to carry on subscribing and listening in. Or they’re going to take the exact opposite and say, I don’t really like this guy I don’t like the way he sounds or I don’t like the way he talks… Rich Birch — Yeah, which is fine. Chris Ducker — Well yeah I just I don’t like the way he looks… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, like that haircut. Chris Ducker — …you know on the audio podcast I don’t like the way he looks, right? Like my mother would say, you’ve got a great face for radio. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes, love it. Chris Ducker — You know I mean like I I think genuinely um, it’s down to you. So just you know the most important thing is understanding what you want to be known for, where your unique traits lie in regards to that, and then understanding that you’ve got to lean into that uniqueness at every available opportunity to attract the right people into your world. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. So yeah, translating a little bit there I think sometimes we look at other leaders and are like, we mimic them. We’re like, hey we’re just going to be like them. We copy and paste what we’re going to do. And I would say even from a spiritual point of view, God has made you how he’s made you. Be that person. Chris Ducker — Mmm-hmm. Rich Birch — Like don’t you don’t need to be somebody different. Be who, you know, who God’s called you to be. And actually I’ve seen over the years particularly those leaders who lead fast-growing churches, they’re very comfortable in their skin. They are who they are and they’re like, hey I’m going to be that person and I’m okay with that you know, I don’t need to try to be like the person down the street that leads that other church. Now pushing a little bit towards tactics, the the part that impresses me about you from afar is is this: so there are a lot of church leaders who have a following of 500 people on Instagram um, who are are you know maybe have a thousand downloads a week on their their podcast, and they have built walls between themselves and their tribe. They have they’ve deliberately like they don’t respond. They don’t engage. They don’t but but you you have you know you have a giant following literally all over the world, and you’ve been able to scale that. You feel very personal online. Ah can you talk to us about how you’ve done that? What what have you done to build community to to at least give off the impression that you are trying to have actual relationships with people? I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it sure seems like that when I engaged with you online. Chris Ducker — I can assure you it’s very very true. Rich Birch — Yes. Chris Ducker — And what you see what you see is what you get. Um, obviously as as as things have grown over the years there have certainly been situations we’ve had to change and tweak slightly, right? So you know if I post something and you know I get you know thirty, forty comments, the rule that we have as a company is no comment gets left behind. And so… Rich Birch — Love it. Chris Ducker — …you know do I have the time to reply to 40 comments 3, 4 times a week? No I don’t. So but you know I’m very lucky, I’m very blessed, extremely blessed and very honored to be able to work closely with my wife, first and foremost, and then also to have my eldest daughter working with us… Rich Birch — Love it. Chris Ducker — …as well, who does know me, who knows… Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Ducker — …you know they both know who I am, and what I stand for, and what my values are, like and how I talk and how I would reply to certain things. So yes, sometimes they will reply on my behalf as me on social media, for example. Ah, but if you know the the one area that I am just really unwavering on is that if somebody does send me an email, or does send me a direct message on social, they have to get a reply. They have to. Rich Birch — Yes. Chris Ducker — They’ve taken time out of their day to reach out to me based on something that they’ve seen me do, and for me to just ignore them, that’s just wrong. Like that goes against P to P entirely… Rich Birch — Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. Chris Ducker — …first and foremost. But it’s just wrong. Like that’s one human being that has come to you for either a little bit of feedback, or a quick answer, or maybe you know maybe they just need an ear for 30 seconds, like whatever it is. Um, and it goes you know it goes I don’t care where you’re from. I don’t care what skin color you have, or who you love, or what you believe in or don’t believe in, um, it’s just being a nice human. Rich Birch — Right. Yes, yes yes. Chris Ducker — You know what I mean. At the end of the day. And so that no comment left behind is is real. We we live and breathe it every single day as a company. Um and a lot of the time I will reply but a lot of the time also I’ve got members of my team replying as well. Rich Birch — Yes. Chris Ducker — But it is real and that’s why I put a little bit of personality into some of the posts as well. Sometimes the post will be very business focused, very strategy focused, and then sometimes I’ll just share the fact that you know I’ve reconnected with a friend… Rich Birch — Yep.. Chris Ducker — …ah for the first time in 3 years and what it means to me. Or that you know I spent the day um, you know, working on a bonsai tree. Rich Birch — I was gonna say it’s got to be bonsai trees. Bonsai trees. Chris Ducker — Yes something being like you know it’s doing it’s bonsai. Or you know I made a Lego a Star Wars Lego set with my son on a Sunday afternoon… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Chris Ducker — …like this is the stuff that I think makes me me. Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Ducker — And so I will share it so people get the real snapshot and not the highlight reel that… Rich Birch — Right. Chris Ducker — …is social media across the board pretty much. Rich Birch — Yeah yeah, I love that again. Friends who are listening and I want to encourage you, I think Chris would be a great person for you to follow online, and and try to do the translation in your brain around Chris runs a ton of businesses all over the world. He’s got a huge following, but look at how personal he’s being to try to draw people in. And I could say as someone who’s engaged with him online ah I get those responses which is a bit shocking to me. I like, to be honest, it was it was refreshing, has been refreshing and it’s been great to kind of push in and learn more from you for sure. Recently I was in a coaching thing with Chris where he was we were talking about responding personally to people. And he was you know, warning us against don’t just copy and paste, don’t just copy and paste to a bunch of people, and respond to stuff because people can smell that stuff a mile away, right? You sound like a robot when you do that. Ah, for sure I love that. So Chris, give us a bit of coaching here. So many churches over the last couple years have increased their online presence ah, kind of surprisingly post you know covid. So you know we pivoted online, we’re doing a lot more online and you know the kind of average picture—you wouldn’t know this—but the average church that I talked to they’ve they’ve had you know a bunch of people return their brick and mortar services, but they still have a ton of people connecting with them online. But we’re not sure what to do with them. We’re not sure how to deepen those relationships to you know to use the language you would use to kind of move them down the funnel, to kind of try to get them more connected, get them more connected with other people. From your perspective, what would you do? How would you talk to a business that would say hey I’ve got to a ton of people on the fringe – how do I move them closer to what you are offering? Chris Ducker — Well, you’ve got to have conversations. Rich Birch — Love it. Chris Ducker — You’ve got to ask questions, and not close-ended questions, right? So a close ended question is something that will end with yes or no, or Tuesday or Wednesday, you know – that sort of type of thing. You want open-ended questions because open-ended questions um create the opportunity for somebody to share information with you. And once you’ve got that information, um, you know you then have the ability to be able to use your unique skill set as a leader to go ahead and provide value to them based on that information. So maybe they’re struggling with a relationship, or maybe they’re struggling with a business opportunity. Maybe they’ve lost some money in the stock markets. You know, whatever it is. If you, particularly as a spiritual leader, has an opportunity to lead that person through whatever they’re dealing with, you’ll you’ll have a much much better rate of success if you ask the right questions and engage in proper conversations. And as I always say, conversations then lead to conversions. Rich Birch — Yep. Chris Ducker — So in in my world as a business leader that means a transaction takes place for money, right, in some way. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yep. Chris Ducker — Um, whereas you know from from a spiritual standpoint, it could be well you know now now they’re ready to join the church properly, and maybe they’re going to donate or you know get involved with sponsorship or something along those lines. Rich Birch — Yep. Chris Ducker — So I I honestly feel also that um you know, personally also as as somebody who believes in God and believes that we’re all here in our own skin for a very clear, you know, obvious reason. Um and that is to serve each other, and to help each other, and to love each other, and support each other, and I’m a big big believer of that. And that’s something that I speak to my children about every day. It’s something that my wife and I share on a regular basis. Whether it be, you know as a family, or with friends, or when we go to church or whatever the case may be. And you know it has been tough over the last couple of years with covid not being able to go to your place of worship. Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Ducker — Not being able to see the people that you would usually see on that regular basis, and I tell you what, any church leader that was able to pivot and bring things online and genuinely continue to serve their following, to serve their flock over that last couple of years, more power to you. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Chris Ducker — More power to you. Because a lot of people struggled with going from in-person to virtual for obvious reasons. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chris Ducker — Um, but if you did it, if you tried to do it, and if you did it successfully, more power to you. Because you’re already ah, ah you know head and shoulders above a lot of the quote unquote competition out there, you know. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love it. I think that’s so many times I think in our world um, or maybe it’s just the people I bumped into it’s like we’re trying to we see online as a place where we’re actually trying to get out of doing conversation. It’s like gosh I just people can come at us from in every direction but because it’s it feels like there’s just so you know it can be so much inbound. But I love the coaching and the encouragement to say actually no like let’s try to get into conversations. Let’s not use that as a way to shut down conversation. It’s not ah, it’s not a megaphone. It’s ah it’s a chance to engage and and be back and forth again. If you follow Chris you get a sense of how he does that online, or there’s lots of leaders that do that. But I think Chris does it… Chris Ducker — Oh I mean tell them follow you. I mean you you do it beautifully, you know. Rich Birch — Yeah sure. Yeah, yeah, sure. Chris Ducker — I mean it’s you know the the other thing is that um, don’t forget again, you’re in charge of it, right? Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Ducker — You can either do it or not do it. It’s totally up to you. What I can tell you, you know, very very confidently and very securely in myself giving this as advice is that if you do it, only good things can come of it if you’re coming from a place of genuinely serving. Rich Birch — Yeah, yes. Chris Ducker — Um and I think that you know you’ve got a lot more to ah gain… Rich Birch — Right. Chris Ducker — …by spending time with people like that and fostering relationships online than you do by not, quite frankly. And you never know when one little bit of advice or one little question that you answer, you’ll never know when that can change that person’s mindset, change their life… Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Right, absolutely. Chris Ducker — …maybe even, right? So I think you know as leaders as stewards we are in a position of responsibility and we and we should take that very seriously, and and show up for our people. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. All right pivoting to a little bit of a different area of expertise in your in your world. You have such deep experience, expertise, you’re an expert really in building virtual remote teams. You’ve done a great job at this. In our world, in our little industry, ah, we’re just on the front end of this. There are just church leaders that now are are scratching the surface. You know, ironically I was blogging about you know hiring VAs because of you ah you know ten years ago but but there really are that’s it’s it’s not mainstream. It’s we’re just early stages. But I am hearing more and more leaders ask this question, hey isn’t there parts of what we could do that are remote remote or fractional staff? Um, what advantage would you say to, you know, what’s the advantage to a church leader who’s listening in today? Maybe they’re a single staff at a church, or maybe they have 2 or 3 staff. Ah, to say maybe we should look at adding a virtual team members – what advantage really have you seen in the organizations you’ve worked on adding virtual staff? Chris Ducker — Well, there’s a lot of advantages. Um, and I’m not surprised that as an industry it’s starting to become more and more important ,and but more talked about because obviously a lot of things in in in the church world have come online over the last couple of years… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Chris Ducker — …and that’s created a whole different set of skills and roles and needs for these churches, and the leaders of those churches very specifically that need to be done, right? Like updating your social media more regularly than maybe once a week. You know, doing all those things. Rich Birch — Yeah, yes, yes. Chris Ducker — And so a VA can really help you across the board in obviously continuing to spread your message, continuing to show up and and you know talk about you know, events in the community, or how you are serving people, or you know special events you might be doing online. But honestly at the core principles of what it comes down to in terms of delegation from a leadership standpoint is that you are getting more time… Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Ducker — …in your day. That’s it. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Chris Ducker — That’s the biggest plus more than anything else is that, you know, I don’t know a leader in any industry that wouldn’t love an extra couple of hours in their workday every day right. Rich Birch — So true. Yes, yeah, it’s so true. Chris Ducker — And so that’s really where VAs come into play. So whether it is just you know managing your email inbox or updating your social media. Maybe you are getting a little bit more active online and you’re uploading a show to YouTube once a week or you’re you know going live in a Facebook group and you want to kind of collate questions and comments and things like that. All these things – if it’s repetitive, if it’s a repetitive task, then a VA can handle it for you. And as a leader, your time is much better spent in your zone a genius than you know playing around in Canva trying to create an image to share on Instagram. Know what I mean? Rich Birch — Yeah it’s so true. Friends, friends, who are listening in pulling back the curtain a little bit like here it unSeminary like we’ve lived this for a long time. My primary assistant she lives in New Jersey, our video editor is in the Philippines our um, our text editor you know copywriter she’s in Zimbabwe, like and it all works very easily to connect with all those people. And and the thing that excites me about it is I’m not limited to the 8 people I know around me. I could find people around the world who have very unique skills who are very good at what they do. Ah, and and frankly are happy to serve in ah you know in this kind of environment. So I think there’s huge opportunity for that. But so let’s say there’s people listening in – there’s a ton we could talk about here, friends. Again, you should follow Chris there’s more. He’s got more information on this kind of stuff. But there’s someone that’s listening in and saying yeah maybe I could see maybe hiring somebody 15 hours a week to help me with, you know, administrative stuff the kind of you know the general VA or social media VA kind of thing. Where where do we find great team members? What is that like how do you find these people? Where are they ah you know where do you access these folks? Chris Ducker — Well there’s a couple couple of different ways to do it. So first up like if you’re just looking for somebody say like you know 10 hours a week or something, then you know you can go to a website like you know freelancer.com or you can go to… what’s the other one? There’s another big one as well. Rich Birch — Yeah Elance, maybe? Chris Ducker — Ah, Elance! That kind of thing exactly. Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Ducker — Um, there’s a lot of different opportunities for that where you’ll post your job, you get a whole bunch of applications. You got to wade through them a little bit obviously, but you can find somebody relatively easily and and you know get them to do that video editing or whatever it is. Chris Ducker — And then the other way is you know to hire for the role rather than the task and that’s what we focus on at Virtual Stafffinder. So You can go a virtualstafffinder.com and you can hire somebody either part-time or full-time. And we’ll go through the process of, you know going through all the applications and vetting them, and testing them, and all the rest of it so you don’t need to do it yourself. So you know a couple of different ways to do it. Very much kind of like ad hoc one-off jobs or bring somebody on full-time or part-time at least um and kind of have them as a team member as well, bearing in mind that most people do need full-time work. So if you hire somebody part-time, the chances are that they’re probably going to be working for somebody else at the same time. So if you want them just for you, if you want to be greedy and have them just working on your own stuff and your stuff only, then hire them full time, you know. Rich Birch — Yeah, yep. Chris Ducker — And a lot of the time ah, you can find people you know over in the Philippines for example, speaking incredible English. They’re trustworthy. They’re very God-fearing people. 97% Catholic the country. All educated in amazing English, you know, great experience online. They spend 12 hours a day on Facebook, right? You know like these people can do the jobs for you. I guarantee it. Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Ducker — And you know a lot of the time you can you can find that help um at a really really good rate. Ah you know sometimes as much of ah as a third… Rich Birch — Right. Chris Ducker — …what you might, you know, pay if you were hiring somebody locally to do exactly the same job. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And that’s been my experience with particular our video editor who lives in the Philippines. She’s killer like she’s amazing. And because all the content and the majority of the content I generate is Christian and and I love that you know she has… I didn’t I wasn’t looking for someone who particularly had a faith background I was I wanted someone who could be great at video editing… Chris Ducker — Sure. Rich Birch — …but she just had she just happened to be ah you know she gets what we’re talking about which is, you know, fantastic. What would you say would be a couple common pitfalls of hiring your first virtual team member? So let’s say okay, we’re going to take a step into this. What would be a couple of those common things that we kind of mess up, that you see people mess up when they make that step? Chris Ducker — I mean I think the first thing is the assumption, and so many people make this assumption, that you can hire one person to do like three different people’s jobs. Rich Birch — Oh it’s so true. Yeah yeah. Chris Ducker — Um I see it a lot. You know you hire one person, you expect them to update your social media, program your website, and do your video editing. Come on. Let’s get real with each other. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Chris Ducker — It doesn’t happen in the real world. So it’s not going to happen virtually either. That’s the big thing kind of you know, hiring one person do several people’s jobs. Rich Birch — Yep. Chris Ducker — Um the other really really big mistake is that expecting that even if they’ve got skill set, the experience, even if they’ve got the right attitude, the nice you know a nice personality, um, and they’re kind of on board with what you stand for as ah as a corporation as ah, you know as ah, a group or company. Um, they’ve never done this for you before. Rich Birch — Yes. Chris Ducker — So the big assumption that oh because they know how to lay out a blog post, they can do mine perfectly the first time I asked them to do it, for example. Rich Birch — Yeah, right. Yeah. Chris Ducker — That’s a silly assumption to make. So that lack of onboarding, and that lack of initial training is a massive mistake that I see people make. And a lot of the time, you know they look at that and say oh you know, VAs are are not worth the time. They don’t get it. Well a lot of the time actually they don’t get it because you didn’t try hard enough to help them get it. Rich Birch — So true. Yes, yes., yeah. Chris Ducker — That’s just a harsh reality. You know? Rich Birch — Yeah, and and we’re like any of our team members, they’re real people. And like we want to take time to invest in the relationship, get to know them. You would never hire a team member on your staff at church and say well if this doesn’t work out in the first month I’m letting them go. You would never do that. You would take time on the front end to say, hey I want to work with this person over an extended period of time and let’s you know, let’s make it happen. So I want to encourage people… Chris Ducker — And be a nice person. Rich Birch — Yes, exactly. Yeah. Chris Ducker — You know like be a nice person to work for. Like send them a birthday gift. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes yeah. Chris Ducker — They’re on your team. If they have a baby drop them a care basket with a load of diapers and some you know you know, ah, butt powder you know and for the newborn baby like you know what I mean? Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Chris Ducker — Like do what you got to do to like show up and be nice as well. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Chris Ducker — Like they’re they’re part of your team. It’s it’s important to be a nice person. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely so friends I’d encourage you to drop by virtualstafffinder.com. They’ve got this great, um you know, virtual assistant salary guide which you could download. And it would give you a sense of kind of if you’re thinking about hiring someone to help you with like Chris is saying like a piece of the puzzle at the church, you could get a sense from that of what that would cost. Ah that would be a great starting point. Well, we’re going to wrap up in a minute here. But I’ve promised you listeners that that we’re going to have a great giveaway and this is what we’re doing. Chris, has got a book which I want you to tell us about here in a second called Rise of the Youpreneur: The Definitive Guide to Becoming the Go-To Leader in Your Industry and Building a Future-Proof Business. We’re going to give away 10 copies of this but this is what I want to do. We’re going to give it away to just 5 leaders who are listening in so you’ve listened this far in you’re almost half an hour in, what I want you to do is to respond to some email that we’ve sent you so you no doubt if you’ve been listening you’ve subscribed and so I want you to respond to one of those. And the first five people who do that but I will send a copy to you. Actually I’m going to send you 2 copies because what I’d love you to do is to actually commit to reading this with another leader. Maybe a volunteer. Maybe a donor from your church or a young leader in your church, and then I would love you to report back in the next ninety days and say, hey what did you guys learn as you did that. Tell us about the Rise of the Youpreneur, tell us about this book. Why did you write this? What what will people get if they you know if they tap into that book? Chris Ducker — Yeah I mean this this is really based around my build, market, monetize framework of building a business based around your expertise. So um, it really is a you know it’s it’s a step by step guide right? The way from kind of like figuring out what you want to be known for and how you can help people right the way down to monetizing that expertise, to monetizing that experience that only you have. And building out an entire ecosystem a suite of products and services to be able to continue to to help people, not just at the the first part of their journey with you, but the second the third the fourth the fifth and and so on and so on. Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Chris Ducker — So it really is ah it’s an a to z of building a business based around you and what you’re all about. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s it’s a book I’ve read multiple times. Actually just reread it at the end of last year. Again it’s great super practical step… I know unSeminary folks love practical step-by-step stuff and this is definitely one of those. Well I’d love to ah you know wrap up this. It’s been an honor that you have been on the show. Anything else you’d like to share just as we wrap up today’s episode? Chris Ducker — Yeah, well, all your all your audience members are leaders. Am I right in saying that? Rich Birch — Absolutely, yeah for sure. Yeah. Chris Ducker — Yeah, so my advice to them all would be to make sure that they carve out regular time, and it doesn’t need to be daily, but it has to be at least weekly. Um, to continue to learn themselves. I’m just a big believer that great leaders continue to learn, so that they can continue to lead. And I make time every every day quite frankly, actually to continue to upgrade myself whether it be just 15 minutes of quiet time reading, or going to a conference or an online event, or you know being part of a mastermind group – whatever it might be. Just continue to learn regardless of how fantastic you think you are, you’re not that great, and you need to continue to learn in order to continue to lead. Rich Birch — Love it. Some great British encouragement at the end. You know, you’re not that great. Let’s be honest, let’s be honest. Chris Ducker — Just like mummy would say to me kind of thing, right? Yeah. Rich Birch — Chris, I love this. I really do I appreciate you. I’ve been, ah like Chris had kind of alluded to there, I’ve been in a coaching group with Chris over this last year and I have just appreciated his his work. So I thank you so much for that and appreciate you being on the show today. If people want to follow you, track with you, where do we want to send them online? Chris Ducker — Well, they can just head over to chrisducker.com, you know. I’ve got links to everything I do – my books, my shows, my programs – everything are over there. So chrisducker.com or give me a follow on Instagram @chrisducker. Rich Birch — Great. Well thanks so much, Chris – appreciate you being here. Thanks for being on the show. Chris Ducker — Thanks for having me, man.

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This time we’re talking with Brian Dodd, the Director of New Ministry Partnerships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions. He also runs a blog called Brian Dodd on Leadership which provides perspective, encouragement, and solutions for church and ministry leaders. When you look at the world today, there seems to be a real deficit in leadership at the top levels. But if you look at everyday life and what’s happening in local churches, local businesses, and community there’s extraordinary leadership going on right now. Listen in as Brian shares wisdom and insights on leadership that can be used to train, inspire, develop, and equip your people and teams. Humble leaders grow churches. // Around 85% of churches are plateaued or declining. If your church is one of the 15%, what are you doing to get to that point? The number one characteristic Brian sees in pastors of growing churches is unbelievable humility. A humble leader who is ready to follow God’s leading and steward well what they’ve been given is a number one asset for a growing church.Three components to spiritual leadership. // There are three components to spiritual leadership: God, the assignment, and a person. God determines the assignment and then gives a person the privilege to be part of that assignment.Character, competence, and creativity. // When doing personal coaching with church leaders, Brian has them focus on character, competence, and creativity. In his research on leadership, he found that character didn’t make it to the top ten traits needed to get to the top in a person’s line of work. While you may not need character to get to the top, however, you will need it to stay at the top. Leadership skills and leader skills. // A leader must develop leadership skills and leader skills. Leadership skills are developing the skills, talents, and abilities to accomplish a task or assignment given to you by God. Leader development is becoming the man or woman who can accomplish those tasks given to you by God. When you systemize the setting of God as the primary resource of everything in your life and leadership you have solved 90-95% of the character issues you’ll face.Creativity is about solutions. // Creativity is directly tied to what we are producing. It’s leveraging resources in a new and different way to produce results that nobody has ever done before. It doesn’t come from abundance, but rather from a lack of abundance. We need to make sure we aren’t leading in a domineering way that stifles creativity and does not produce solutions.A tool for leading your people well. // Brian has written a book called 2021: The Year in Leadership. The Stories of Faith, Athletics, Business and Life Which Inspired Us All. Every page is filled with leadership lessons and contains over 80 illustrations that church leaders can use in sermons, trainings, team huddles, as well as individual growth and development. You can follow along with Brian Dodd and grab a copy of his book at briandoddonleadership.com, plus get free access to The Top 75 Leadership Quotes Of 2021 Part 2. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Leadership Pathway If you are trying to find, develop and keep young leaders on your team look no further than Leadership Pathway. They have worked with hundreds of churches, and have interviewed thousands of candidates over the past several years. They are offering a new ebook about five of the core competencies that are at the heart of the leadership development process with every church that they partner with…just go to leadershippathway.org/unseminary to pick up this free resource. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey, everybody – welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire and equip you. Today We’re also going to bring you someone who I know you’re going to be encouraged with. You’ve got my friend Brian Dodd. He is the Director of a New Ministry Relationships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions. He runs an incredible blog called Brian Dodd on Leadership where he really provides lots of great information and help. Over the years he’s a couple times has pointed people to ah resources on on unSeminary. Listen friends, this is why I want you to to lean in. Brian, I think, is a professional encourager. He is so good at getting in the corner of church leaders particularly and and wants to help push your ministry forward. So I’m excited to have you on the show today, Brian. Brian Dodd — Hey, great to be here, Rich. It’s my second time so I am honored to be back. Ah, you’ve been a friend for years, and hey man thrilled to thrilled to spend some time with you and invest in your audience a little bit. Rich Birch — Yeah, why don’t you tell us a little bit about ah about you – just fill out your story a little bit. Give us your your background. Fill out what I didn’t I didn’t say much there, but kind of tell us a little bit about who you are. Brian Dodd — Yeah, so I mean you you said it well. I’m Brian Dodd. My daytime job is Director of New Ministry Partnerships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions and what I do there is I help pastors and church leaders think through what’s necessary to fully fund their mission and vision. So when you talked about being a professional encourager, hey we’ll give all the credit to God for that. You know we we all drift into states of carnality from time to time, if you want to use that phrase. Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Brian Dodd — But but yeah my job is to is to talk with pastors and church leaders and listen to their story and uncover things that we then can discuss based upon those findings. Hey here’s what’s possible. So I do that all day, and thrilled to do that. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — This is my twentieth anniversary doing that by the way. Yeah, so passing a milest… Rich Birch — Oh congratulations, congratulations! I’m not sure how such a young man has been there for 20 years. I don’t know how that worked out but nice. Brian Dodd — Exactly. I started you know in grade school, you know as an intern. Yes. Rich Birch — Ah yes. Brian Dodd — Started in the mail room as an intern. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, love it. Nice. Brian Dodd — Started in the mail room as an intern. So um, yeah, and nighttime, yeah and kind of like you, Rich, you know I produce helpful content for leaders. Um, you know, mainly it’s it’s primary to Christian leaders. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — But I delivered in a way that it helps the athletic and education communities and the business community as well, and other nonprofits. And out of that once again, kind of like you it’s grown into podcasts, books, things of that nature. But but yeah I mean you and I are in the same space on ah on somewhat of a similar journey, not exactly the same. But yeah God’s kind of set us aside, you know help his bride… Rich Birch —  Absolutely. Brian Dodd — …and resources bride and let let you know let the church be everything God intended it to be so. Rich Birch —  Yeah I love that. and you know we we are ah old school you know bloggers, like you know back when that was like a thing you know we both been doing this for you know back when, you know people used to it used to be cool to be a blogger, so and we just never gave up. That’s I always joke like yeah I just never stopped writing I just kept going so which is funny. Ah. Brian Dodd — Right. Yeah, we were blogging when it wasn’t cool, when it was cool, and now when it’s not cool again. So we’ve… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Brian Dodd — …and ah we’ve we’ve ah we’ve we’ve lasted the whole journey. So. Rich Birch — Nice. Well you talk to church leaders all day long, like you said in your day job, and so the reason why I wanted to get you on was to take advantage of that. The fact that you’re engaging with church leaders a lot. To kind of get a sense of where the church is at, to kind of hear what’s what’s top of mind with leaders these days. What are the things as you’re engaging with that you just see either explicitly or implicitly in the conversations that you seem to be engaging with on a regular basis with church leaders? Brian Dodd — Yeah I want to point out two things that are that are that I think are unique. Um, you know that that that would make your listeners go okay, that’s ah, that’s a different perspective. Ah, the first thing is when you talk to church leaders, and you’re talking to Christian alpha male and alpha females, okay. Um, you would think that there’s a level of bravado, and ah a level of gravitas, and ego and all of that. I find that to be unbelievably rare. Rich Birch — Mmm, true. Brian Dodd — And you know one of the questions I always talk to people or when I talk to leaders and I’ll say look, give or take what stat you’re reading this week let’s just say on average 84 to 85% of churches are plateaued or declining. And as you like to point out that still does in fact to factor in compared to the growth of the city. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, yeah. Brian Dodd — But let’s just say 84/85% are plateaued or declining. You’re one of the 15%. Rich Birch — Right, right. Brian Dodd — Obviously it’s the goodness of God, but what are you doing that’s causing that 15%, or that makes you one of the 15% Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Yeah. Brian Dodd — Rich, the most common answer I get is you know, Brian, we obviously try to you know, serve our community. We obviously try to meet needs. We obviously try to put on great Sunday services that are relevant and speak to the needs of people. And we try to have in great systems in place and drive people to groups. You know we do all the things that you hear you’re supposed to do. He goes Brian but the bottom line is we were talking about it in staff meeting this week, we have no idea where these people are coming from. Rich Birch — Right. Right, by God’s grace. Brian Dodd — And we’re just trying everything we can do not to mess it up. The the number one characteristic I see in pastors of growing churches is unbelievable humility. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Brian Dodd — And they are and they are privileged to be part of what God’s doing. And and realize that you know they’re like a surfer riding a surfboard. They didn’t cause the wave, they didn’t build the surfboard, they’re they’re just trying to steward the surfboard in the wave well. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Brian Dodd — And you know so that’s that humility is, number one, attractive in leaders to begin with. But I think a humble leader is your number one asset, other than the Holy Spirit, to be an accelerant for growth of your church. Yeah. Rich Birch — Oh that’s so good. And that I love that you pointed that out, like that is true in so many leaders that I’ve run into over the years. And I would say particularly you’re true it’s you’re right. Like yeah in I’ve had the honor, the privilege, would be like you to interact with leaders at some of the largest and fastest growing churches in the country, and ah the vast majority are do hold what they do ah very lightly in the sense of that’s not that they don’t steward it, but they they don’t take credit for it when it’s all said and done. They’re like, wow, I’m honored that I get to sit in the seat that I’m in I get to do what I get to do. Um but man this is really because of God and because of what he’s he’s up to. That’s that’s a I love that you’re pointing that out because I I think the assumption could be like you say like, you know, being a driven leader or being you know, kind of making it all about yourself. Brian Dodd — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — Ah could be the you know the assumed norm of what it what it could look like to to lead ah a growing church. Brian Dodd — Yeah I think the first person you know that ever talked about this on what I would call a national level was probably Jim Collins, in built to last when he talked about the myth of the of the larger than life leader. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — But the the reality is I see I see that every day. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — I see that played out every day. And the thing about it, Rich, there are three components to spiritual leadership. There’s God, the assignment, and a person. And God determines the assignment. Things he wants to get done at this particular point in time in human history. And then he gives a person the privilege of being part of that assignment. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — In other words God’s going to get done whatever God wants to get done. But he invites us into that process, and so you know the lasting leaders, the ones that make the most impact, um that they realize that you know in all honesty, God could have picked anybody for this assignment. I just want to steward… Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Brian Dodd — I just want to steward it well while I was given to me. So. Rich Birch — I want to come back to the ah that idea and come back to this idea around what can we do to develop our piece of the puzzle, who we are, I’d love to get your thoughts on that. Brian Dodd — Yeah. Rich Birch — But before we get there, this is an example ah, literally was just in this conversation with a friend this week that’s from the marketplace that illustrates exactly what you’re talking about. In one organization that’s been led by two very different leaders, which is Apple Computer, famously you know you know Steve Jobs famously gregaric. Ah famously um you know you driven and um, you know, maybe a bit problematic in how he interacted with other folks. Now that was used in the market. It you clearly you know made a huge difference. But if you look at the value of Apple today, it dwarfs where it was under Steve jobs under their current leader, Tim Cook, who is exactly the kind of leader you’re talking about. Who is ah you know much more of a team player, much more not that he’s not you know doesn’t have opinions, not that he doesn’t you know, ah, he’s not not that he’s not sharp but he is a much more hey, let’s do this together. Let’s figure out how to build a great organization. I don’t need to make this all about me. I don’t need people to cheer for me every time I step out of the building. Um, and you can literally see it if you look up, you know, just the value of Apple Computer. There is an inflection. There’s a number of inflection points but actually the most significant inflection point over the years is actually when Tim Cook took over as the CEO over these last years, which which doesn’t play as well in the in the leadership ah you know, kind of whatever you call that you know this fear of communicators that love to talk about it because they like like a guy like Steve Jobs because he’s so flashy. But actually Tim Cook is doing an incredible job. That’s that’s amazing. Rich Birch — Well let’s talk about the development piece. So I love that – God, the assignment, and the person. When we think about the person side of it, we think about us and you think about our own development – what we should be doing to grow as leaders. What what are some of those things we should be thinking about as as we lead, as we try to develop who we are, as we lead in the context that we’re in? Brian Dodd — Yeah, definitely. You know I want to say one other thing and then I’m going to answer that question about God, ad assignment and the person. God uses the assignment to mold the person to be more like Jesus. So for us long time church… Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — For us longtime church people, we would say hey the assignment is part of the sanctification process. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — You know it chips away at you, it molds, it shapes you, it humbles you, it does all those things. Rich Birch — Yeah. Brian Dodd — But in terms of you know, when I look at when I talk to leaders and I coach leaders, and I say okay look, we’re going we’re gonna talk about personal coaching. I want to zero in on three areas… Rich Birch — Okay. Brian Dodd — Character, competence, and creativity. Rich Birch — Ok, interesting, a different set of three I was going to say that’s a different set of 3 Cs. Brian Dodd — And yeah now most people do… that’s a different set of three most people do character, competence, and chemistry. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Brian Dodd — And I get that. And you and you do want chemistry, and I think you could you’d have to shoehorn it in but people’s skills, and emotional intelligence, and EQ, and all that, you could shoehorn that into character if you wanted to. But but character. Yeah, you know the second book I wrote was a book called Timeless and what Timeless was is I studied 180 what I call apex leaders and organizations – the best pastors, the best coaches, the best athletes, the best businesses, you know all of those type of things. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Brian Dodd — And I identified 302 traits they had. I narrowed it down to the top 10. The 10 most common threads. So that’s the 10 enduring practices. Now when you do a project like that there are some things that you’re going to assume are the the or the 10. Rich Birch — Sure. Brian Dodd — You know you’re going to assume teamwork, and hard decisions, and persevere, and variance. You know you’re going to assume those things. And they were in there. I assumed character would be in there. Character did not make the top 10. Rich Birch — Mm interesting. Brian Dodd — Matter of fact, it came around you know around fifteen-ish. Okay? Rich Birch — Right. Okay, okay. Brian Dodd — And here’s what the study told me – you don’t need character to get to the top, but you need character to stay at the top. And… Rich Birch — Mmm, that’s so true. So… Brian Dodd — So go ahead. But. Rich Birch — Yeah I’d love to talk about that. So we unfortunately we don’t have to think long and hard to find examples of leaders who have either their you know their creativity and their competence has got them into the room, or got them to the place they’re at, and then their character erodes, and and it extinguishes them. It’s not like woo who do we have to think of that we’ve got too many examples of that, particularly in the Christian world and in the church world. But what should we be thinking about on the development of character side? How how do we actually develop that? How do we how do we, you know, stretch that muscle? Brian Dodd — Great, great question. And Rich, you talked about my encouragement at the very beginning so we’re not going to single people out. We All know we all know. And look. We’ve seen people fall in in ministry, in entertainment, politics – you name it. I mean every walk of life that they’ve had that. Ah, here’s what I think happens and then I’m going to talk about what to do with this information. Rich Birch — Ok. Brian Dodd — There are two things that a leader must develop – leadership skills and leader skills, and those are two completely different things. Leadership skills is developing the skills, talents, and abilities to accomplish a task or assignment given to you by God. That’s what most people think of, Rich. It’s the reading the books, listening to your podcast, read unseminary.com, going to conferences. Rich Birch — Yeah. Brian Dodd — Yeah, you know it’s the development of the skills, coaching networks. You know all of that kind of stuff. Leader development is not developing the skills, talents, and abilities to accomplish a task or assignment given to you by God. It’s becoming the man or woman who can accomplish a task or assignment given to you by God. Brian Dodd — This is the development of character. And the number one thing that I talk to leaders about and I’ll tell them I say, look, genius is making the complicated simple, not the simple complicated. Do you start the first 30 to 60 minutes of every day in a quiet time with God? Bible study and prayer. When you set God as you when you when you systematize the setting of God as the primary resource of everything in your life and leadership, you have just solved 90 to 95% of the character issues you’re ever going to face. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — And so many times when I talk to leaders know they don’t do that. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Brian Dodd — You know they’ll wake up. They’ll get their coffee. They’ll do this, they’ll they’ll check their phones first thing. You know and look I’m guilty of that as well. You know, the teacher is the number one student – I’m as guilty as that ah as anybody. But yes, the the setting aside of a as simple as it sounds, Bible study and quiet time is is so critical to the development of character. And here’s the thing, Rich. Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — There’s been some high profile people that have had issues and I don’t need to name them, and neither do you. But when somebody says to me, Brian, are you surprised so and so had that problem? I may or may not be taken off guard. But all leaders, Rich, if they’re not careful, can spend so much time on developing their leadership skills… Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — …that their leadership skills will outpace their leader skills… Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — …and then their skills, talents, and abilities will take them to a place their character can’t sustain them. Rich Birch — Right, right. Brian Dodd — And to be perfectly honest, I’m as susceptible to that as anybody. You know we’re all one decision away from stupid as the say in goes. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, no. Absolutely. Brian Dodd — So so I don’t think negative about, I just very pragmatically know that this is a process that probably happened. Rich Birch — Yeah, and how do you How how do you coach a leader. So I think one of the occupational hazards of being in the church is our content is so connected to our spiritual development. So we um, you know, we’re we need to be in God’s word, we need to be leaning in and drinking from that well for our own spiritual development. Ah, but we all know that there’s a difference between that and making the making of messages, the leading of team meetings, all of those things where we’re also engaging in scripture. How how do you separate those two? How do you ensure that in your own life how have you found, you know the ability to, hey I’m I’m in I’m in God’s work today and this is about, hey Lord what do you have for me today? Not like I need to come up with the great talk for you know this this church I’m going to talk to next week? Brian Dodd — Rich, I want to challenge that thought process. Rich Birch — Okay, good – challenge me. Brian Dodd — Well I’ve heard everybody say that that your personal devotion time should be completely separated from “the job of pastoring”. Rich Birch — Sure. Brian Dodd — Okay. And we’ve all heard that. Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — Why? Why do we have to live a bifurcated life? Why can’t Sunday be an overflow of what God’s doing in our life throughout the entire week? Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. Brian Dodd — Ah, that’s just a question I want to ask. You know, um, there’s there’s definitely room for disagreement on that and people have been very successful doing it both ways. Okay, but just a… Rich Birch — Yeah, well, there’s yeah, there is no, there’s for sure you know what you don’t want is, hey you’re getting up and talking about things that ah… yeah I think the saying is you want to you know, smoke your own stack, like you know you want to whatever you’ve got, you know, your eat your own dog food. Whatever the the phrase is. Listen I don’t want to get up and have something that’s so disconnected from my own personal life that because that’s dangerous as well, right? There’s ah, there’s a danger on the other end of that spectrum too. That is a very good point. I appreciate you pushing on that. Brian Dodd — Well, you know if I’m setting up an annual preaching calendar. Okay? Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — Let’s say I’m setting up an annual preaching calendar and it’s going to be built around our core values as a church, and then here’s what we want to see God do in the hearts and lives of our people through the next twelve months. And obviously all pastors know if something pops up, like a pandemic or something like that, there’s margin to change. Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Brian Dodd — Okay, but at that same time I am kind of like, just like you pick a word for the year, which is now very popular thing to do… Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — …why can’t you say, okay God, that’s the journey you’ve got me going on as well. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — The shepherd and the sheep are going on the same journey this next twelve months. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good. Brian Dodd — and that that and and I think that can really help relieve a lot of “pressure” that someone may be feeling and that you have to have an unbifurcated spiritual experience as a pastor or church leader. Rich Birch — Right. Okay, that’s good. Let’s talk about creativity. Why why do you list that in the three? Why is that you know the kind of thing that we should be thinking about? What and what do you mean by when you say creativity, and why is that so important for leaders today? Brian Dodd — Okay, so I am the classic meat and potatoes guy. Rich Birch — Sure. Brian Dodd — You know, I just wear blue, brown, red you know, staple colors. Rich Birch — Ah, sure. Brian Dodd — I’ve had the same hairstyle just thinner since the late 70s. Um, been married to the same woman for 31 years Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — Until we just my daughter just got out of college and we had money freed up. Both my cars were over 200,000 miles. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — I mean I’m a very stable/boring individual. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — Okay, all right? So this is coming from that type of mind. Most people think of creativity as lasers, light shows, skinny jeans, low v-necks, and scarfs. Rich Birch — Sure. Yes. Brian Dodd — And that is not creativity that is style. Rich Birch — Right, right. Brian Dodd — You cannot have creativity without creation. Ah, whoever your top producers are in your church. That’s your most creative people because they are creating the most. Oh for instance I’m gonna take an extreme example… Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — …the 70 year old second grade Sunday school teacher who somehow has this generation of people that came through her class and are now missionaries and pastors. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — I can make the argument. She’s the most creative person in your church. Rich Birch — Yes, Love it. Yeah. Brian Dodd — Okay so creativity is directly tied to creation. Who are, you know, are you as a leader, are you producing? And I’ll also I’ll also go you know talk about this: creativity is directly tied to solutions as a leader and creativity is not “working outside the box”. Creativity is leveraging resources in a new and different way to produce results within the box that nobody’s ever done before. Rich Birch — Right, right. Love it. Brian Dodd — And like Craig Groeschel and the invention of the you of the YouVersion Bible App… Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — …and you’ve you’ve had them on your podcast I’m sure. Creativity, you know comes from… does not come from abundance creativity comes from a lack of abundance. Rich Birch — Yeah, restriction for sure. Brian Dodd — If you have a if you have abundance, you’re just going to pay for it. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — That scarcity causes you to figure things out. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true. Brian Dodd — And here’s the thing is a leader. When I walk into a meeting that’s already in progress and they’re trying to solve a problem and I walk in, one of two things is gonna happen. They’re either gonna go, oh Brian, great you’re here. We’re bouncing around this idea. What do you think? Or either the room’s going to shut down. And creativity goes out the window… Rich Birch — Yeah. Brian Dodd — …collaboration ceases. All of that all of that open communication stops because I lead in a domineering way that stifles creativity, and does not produce solutions. Or either I lead in a way that does. So yeah I talk to leaders about, walk me through the issues that you’re facing and how you’re going about solving those problems. That’s how I classify creativity. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that. That’s actually at the core the reason why I started the podcast all those years ago was I really do think that ah, huge part of solving problems in the church, you know—and this is like in my own church as I’m leading in the things I’m leading in—is like finding those ideas in other churches that are maybe not directly applicable, but are like two steps removed and then saying you know what if we tried a little bit of what those guys were doing over here, and kind of added that to our thing. I wonder what that would do. You know, and then trying it and then being like, hey maybe maybe we’ll see what difference that could make. I really do think that’s the value of conversations like this because, you know, you you chew over it with other leaders. You learn. You get a chance to try see what does this what does this look like? How do we how do we move from here? Love that. Love that. Well I know you’ve got ah a brand new book that’s just come out, or is coming out. I’d love to hear a little bit about it. It’s called 2021 The Year of Leadership. The Stories of Faith, Athletics, ah, Business and Life Which Inspired Us… I’d love to hear… Inspired Us All. I’d love to hear a little bit about that. Tell us about why why this book. Why did you why did you pull this one together? Brian Dodd — Yeah, um, number one it was ah, always a dream of mine to to write this book. And I I can unpack that in a little bit, but for the reader you know when you look at leadership in the world today, Rich, and you look at it like on a top level, there seems to be a real deficit in leadership, right now. You know John Maxwell even famously said all throughout 2020 that he was leadership sad. You know at that top level there just was such a deficit of basic fundamental leadership skills. Okay. But, Rich, if you if you look at everyday life and what’s happening in local churches, and what’s happening at local ball fields, and in local businesses, and things of that nature, there’s extraordinary leadership going on right now. Rich Birch — Mmm, love it. Brian Dodd — So I wanted to take a I wanted to create a forum that a lot of those stories could be told. And so that’s why I wrote the book so that you could just see on a day in day out basis throughout an entire 365 day year… Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — …was extraordinary leadership last year leadership that as I said in the title, it is inspiring. And if I’m an executive pastor of church leader here’s how I use the book. Number one, there’s leadership lessons on every single page. Now I self-published this book and we can talk about that in a second, but there’s leadership lessons on every single page. So there’s no fluff. Every page matters, every page you can use to say, okay I got something now I can go train my team. Okay? Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Brian Dodd — There’s over eighty illustrations that you could use in sermons. You know if you’re leading a team meeting and say okay I need an opener, this book is for you. Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Brian Dodd — And so it’s just a great tool and resource to help pastors and church leaders with their individual growth and development. But also, hey this is a tool that helps me lead my people well. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — So that’s that’s the macro reason that the book was written. So. Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah I I think when I was checking this out the thing that struck me was exactly what you said there. This could be a great tool even to give to my team like who are leading people. You know if I’m an executive pastor at a church today and I’ve got you know 10 staff who you know report to me or whatever. This could be a great book to give to all 10 of them and say, hey I know you’re looking for stuff for your huddles. You’re looking for stuff as you’re engaging, you know people. This could be a great resource, so I’m glad you said that because that was actually the thing I was like ooh this could be a great ah, kind of a great tool on that front. Anything that as you were pulling this together I’m sure but you know you’re talking about inspiration, you’re talking about inspirational leadership in a lot of different spheres, was there a story or two that kind of bubbled to the surface that were like, wow this was particularly in so inspiring or you know, shocking, surprising kind of like made you kind of lean in as you thought about it? Brian Dodd — Well okay, this is and this is a personal favorite of mine. Rich Birch — Yes, yep. Brian Dodd — Okay, so this is this is this takes up like three pages in the book. So so if you’re an executive pastor, coaching a small group pastor. Or you’re a small group pastor, or you’re a pastor teaching on the value of community, these three pages are for you in the book. Rich Birch — Yes, okay. Brian Dodd — In early July there’s a town called Nome, Alaska. Now you’re from Canada – this is Nome, Alaska. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — The population 3866. Rich Birch — Ok. Brian Dodd — Nome Alaska is so remote. It’s at the Seward peninsula of the Bering Sea. This city does not even show up on the Alaskan roadway system. Rich Birch — Ok. Brian Dodd — It’s a 90 minute flight from Fairbanks, Alaska into wilderness. Rich Birch — Right. Wow. Brian Dodd — In early July there was a guy named Richard Jesse. If you go to Nome, Alaska and then go forty miles deeper into the wilderness, this is where Richard Jesse was, okay? Rich Birch — Okay, yes. Brian Dodd — So what happened with Richard. He was out there one day and he was driving his ATV across ah a river, and he was ambushed by a grizzly bear. sSo he’s attacked by the grizzly bear, the ATV sinks to the bottom of of the of the lake. His cell phone sinks to the bottom of the lake. Rich Birch — Oof oof. Brian Dodd — And it’s him and the grizzly bear forty miles from a town that’s so remote it does not show up on a roadway system. Okay? Rich Birch — Okay, you have set up the tension. I’m leaning in. Brian Dodd — I know. So for three days with just a gun he holds this bear off. Rich Birch — Wow. Brian Dodd — Fortunately for him low cloud cover comes over Nome, Alaska so a a helicopter crew Coastguard then has to divert around the low cloud cover to get where they’re going and they discovered that he had made an S-O-S signal, and they and they so and they lowered the helicopter and rescued him. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Brian Dodd — So hopefully Richard has already signed the book and movie deals and got Leo Leonardo Dicaprio to play him. Rich Birch — Yes, ah yes. Brian Dodd — But but you listen to that story, and I think there’s three big lessons that come from that story. Okay. Number one, Rich, human beings were not designed to be alone. We were designed to be part of community, right? And what what we learned from Richard Jesse is when we’re alone and we’re disconnected, we are open to all kinds of attacks. Spiritual attacks, emotional attacks, psychological attacks, physical attacks. And one thing that we learned from Richard is that when we’re in community or when we’re not in community, no one’s there to watch our back. Rich Birch — Right, right. No one’s there to take care of us. That’s the first thing we learn. Second thing we learn is when crisis and calamity come into our life, embrace the gift of the brevity of language. Rich Birch — Hmm ok. Brian Dodd — And economy of words. The three letters S-O-S communicates a great deal. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Love It. Brian Dodd — I love the movie Sully. If you go back and watch the movie Sully. As soon as the Canadian geese—we’re going to blame it on y’all, Rich—when the Canadian geese hit the airplane… Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — …notice the language that takes place between the co tom Tom Hanks and the copilot. It’s very crisp, very sharp. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — Your plane, my plane. He goes through the checklist and the stewardess or excuse me the flight attendants begin to tell the you begin to tell the passengers head down, stay down, head down, stay down. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s so good. Brian Dodd — So when there’s crisis, a brevity of language is your friend. We don’t need people waxing eloquently during times of crisis. Okay. Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Brian Dodd — And the third thing is don’t quit. You know there’s going to be people on that staff and in that church that today may be the day they quit. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — They may quit the ministry. They may quit their marriage. Sadly, some of them may be considering suicide and quitting life. Um, another Tom Hanks movie Castaway. There’s a great scene when he’s back in Memphis and he’s telling his friend about the experience and he said I just kept breathing. I just stayed alive and then one day the tide brought a cell in. You never know what the tide’s going to bring in. Brian Dodd — Richard Jesse would agree with that. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — He kept staying alive. He kept fighting. He kept doing everything he could to hold the bear off. Because you never know what low cloud cover could bring in. Rich Birch — So good. Love it. Yes. Brian Dodd — And today may be the day somebody on your staff or in your church today may be the day that God brings in low low cloud cover, and they’re going to be rescued. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — So this is an example of how the book can be utilized. That it takes stories like this Richard Jesse – an incredible demonstration of self-leadership. Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — It takes stories just like that and how you can use them in a church context to really equip, and motivate, and inspire the people of your church and your staff. Rich Birch — See see friends as you’re listening in, this is why you should be following Brian. He he does this stuff all day long pulling out incredible leadership lessons from ah the realms of entertainment, from sports, all different areas. I find it so helpful, so engaging and so helpful. So yeah I would love for you to pick up a copy of his book. Friends let me be completely honest, so there are times where people want to bring come on and talk about their book, and most of those people I turn down. Not only was I happy to have Brian on to talk about this book, but I also bought the book myself like with my own money. I didn’t say, hey send me a free copy, because I really I I just believe in Brian, believe what he’s doing and I think this is a great resource. So I’d love for you to pick that up. We could pick this up at Amazon. Is there anywhere else we want to pick it up? Where should we be sending people who want to pick up a copy of the book? Brian Dodd — Yeah, you’re right, Rich. Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — And you know for some reason if if those slip your mind you can go to briandoddonleadership and there’s a link right there to pick up the book. It’ll link you right back to Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, that’s great. Brian Dodd — But but yeah, those are the those are the places to get it. Rich Birch — That’s great and then you’ve also… listen, you just Brian just keeps given to you. So we’ve given some stories, some good stuff to wrestle with, but you’re also going to give us a downloadable resource that we want to pick up. Kind of tell us a little bit about that. Ah, what is it that we’re going to. We’re going to link to in the show notes here? Where what do we want to send people for that? Brian Dodd — But yeah, a couple of years ago I started accumulating just great leadership quotes. And I know if you’re ever a person who has to develop content, you love quotes. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Brian Dodd —You know quotes frame it. You know quotes quotes give you additional credibility because somebody very famous said something that supports a point you’re trying to get across. Rich Birch — Yes, so true. Brian Dodd — So I started to accumulating quotes. And twice a year I always do here’s the best quotes I got from the first half of the year, or the second half of the year. So obviously at the time of the year that you and I are taping this I’m in the process of gathering for the first half of 2022. But for the free downloadable resource, yeah, they’re just going to click the link in your show notes and we’re going to provide them the best 75 great quotes from the second half of 2021. You know that’ll just make them laugh, it’ll challenge their thinking. It’ll inspire them. Um and great resource to build into the into the content they’re creating. Rich Birch — Love it. So good, so helpful. Like I say friends, Brian is in your corner. He wants to help you out. Ah well I think we’re gonna land this plane here. I appreciate you being here. Is there anything else you want to share with us just as we wrap up today’s episode? Brian Dodd — You know, Rich, the the only other thing I’d say is your I got introduced to your content unSeminary ten years ago maybe give or take. Rich Birch — Right, right. Brian Dodd — The information that you’re providing to church leaders is invaluable. Rich Birch — Oh thank you, man. Brian Dodd — And you know I just want to I want to end by encouraging you. Um I do believe with every ounce of my being that that being a pastor is the toughest job in the world. Rich Birch — Very true. Yep. Brian Dodd — And if for no other reason, two things. Number one you lead volunteer armies, and satan is not omnipresent. He’s not everywhere. He’s a master of deployment, but he’s not everywhere. So there’s some places that you’re not going to run into satan today and you’re not going to run into the enemy. The people you resource and the people you equip face him every day. And so what you do is you fill in gaps that they were not taught in seminary that when you fill in those gaps that that eliminates a place that the enemy can work. Brian Dodd — So my friend you are you are providing an invaluable resource to pastors and church leaders, particularly executive pastors, and I just thank you for all you’re doing. So if I can ever encourage you in any way we are all on the same team and fighting the same battle and and I appreciate what you do. Rich Birch — I appreciate you, Brian. Thank you so much I want to make sure people get to your website. We’ll have links in in our show notes. But it’s BrianDoddonleadership that’s Dodd with two d’s or I guess 3 ds um, you know we want to make sure that you get over there anywhere else. We want to send people online if they ah, want to track with you? Brian Dodd — You know I’m still old school a little bit. I like Twitter. Rich Birch — Yes! You can put links in Twitter you know. Hot links in Twitter @BrianKDodd on Twitter. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Love it. Brian Dodd — I like you know I’m still, you know, I was at Twitter when it wasn’t cool, and when it was, and now it’s not you know, kind of like blogging. So but yeah. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, yeah, no, it’s true. You know it’s it’s funny I was I was talking with a friend this week about Twitter. I was like Twitter has been you know I’m still there I’m not as active as I once was, but I do find myself opening it up more recently like over the last six months than I have. I’m like there is something great about the simplicity of Twitter that is that’s actually fantastic for connecting with people. Brian Dodd — Yeah. Rich Birch — So love that. Well Brian, I appreciate you being here. Thanks so much for encouraging leaders. Thanks for what you do every day to help leaders that Injoy and in your own stuff. Just wish you the best as we continue through. I’m looking forward to the I’m looking forward to the book for 2022 as well. I’m sure you’re gathering ideas now. So looking forward to that. Brian Dodd — I am I am in the process of writing it now. So yeah. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks Brian appreciate being here.

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Shawn Lovejoy, the founder and CEO of Courageous Pastors and Courage to Lead. His work is all about coaching leaders around what keeps them up at night and focuses on personal and organizational growth. Shawn is talking with us about building and redeploying healthy teams in our churches after the struggles of the last couple of years. A switch in the focus. // Shawn says that three years ago, before so much of the upheaval we’ve experienced, 90% of his talks with pastors were on the nuts and bolts side of leading a church and 10% on the personal side. Today with everything we have going on in our world, that has now switched to 90% personal and 10% nuts and bolts. Shawn’s organization talks with pastors about getting back up and finding confidence and courage again.Grieve the loss, then move ahead. // Grieve the loss that you had in your church since the pandemic, but then focus on moving ahead. Look at the church leaders currently on your staff as your new launch team and pour into them. Rebuild the team you’ve got and deploy them to equip your people to live out the church’s mission.Look at building leaders at every level. // The opportunity for church leaders now is not to focus on getting more followers, but rather building leaders at every level. Look for people who aren’t just ministry doers, but ministry developers. Build teams from the staff to lay leaders to volunteers. Train your staff team to replicate themselves and give their jobs away. In doing so they make themselves indispensable rather than being bottlenecks. And building a strong leadership culture at your church will strengthen you at the center so you can stand firm when the next challenge comes your way.Culture, team, and systems. // Shawn’s book Building a Killer Team Without Killing Yourself or Your Team helps leaders move ahead with becoming a better leader and team builder. Shawn can trace every growing or non-growing church back to three things—the culture, the team, and the systems—and he coaches around these three gears of growth. The number one thing that keeps church leaders awake at night is people. We need to stop believing that if we can hire a certain person it will solve all of our problems. Instead we need to learn to develop our people on healthy teams.Build great, healthy teams. // Shawn’s process to building healthy teams focuses five pillars. This sequence includes fostering togetherness, recruiting and building great talent, bolstering accountability, structuring for growth and peace, and maintaining rhythms and finish lines.Be clear and honest with your staff. // We all would love to acquire the best team ever. But we all have folks on our teams who aren’t meeting expectations. As a leader, part of developing staff member means talking to them when we are not happy with their performance. By doing so we can help them get realigned, or they may recognize the current position isn’t right for them. Be clear and honest about not meeting your expectations. It allows them to hear from the Holy Spirit on where they are called and whether they should opt out. Offer clarity and honesty on where they are winning and not winning, on what’s acceptable and not acceptable. You can learn more about Building a Killer Team Without Killing Yourself or Your Team at www.killerteambook.org. To get coaching help, listen to the Courageous Pastors podcast, and explore more free resources that can help your church, visit Courageous Pastors at www.courageouspastors.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: CDF Capital Since 1953, CDF Capital has helped Christians and churches embrace their part in this story by providing the 3 kinds of capital every congregation needs for growth—Financial Capital, Leadership Capital, and Spiritual Capital. At CDF Capital, we care about each of these components. When a church is properly resourced financially, spiritually, and in leadership, lives are transformed. Sign-up to learn more about CDF Capital and how we can help your church grow. Receive a 50% discount on a monthly subscription to the CDF Capital Subscribe & Save Bundle. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know today we’ve got a leader you’re going to want to lean in on and and learn from. We’ve got a leader of leaders – someone who’s connected with just so many great people across the country. We’ve got Shawn Lovejoy – he’s the founder and CEO of Courage to Lead which is all about coaching leaders around what keeps them up at night. They really facilitate organizational and personal growth for leaders. He has a real diverse background. He’s been a church planter, a pastor, a real estate developer, entrepreneur, a leadership coach. He is the host of the Courage to Lead podcast and just a fantastic guy. Plus he’s written ah a book that we want to make sure you hear more about. So Shawn, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Welcome back to the show. You’ve been on again which is nice, which if you’re longtime listener, you know we don’t do that often. So glad so glad to have Shawn back. Shawn Lovejoy — Honored to be with you and honored to be your friend, and I’m glad you and I have a relationship, man, because you’re one of the smartest guys that I know, but you’re also one of the most approachable and accessible guys that I know. So I just appreciate that about you. Rich Birch — Oh thanks so much, Shawn. Why don’t you kind of fill out this Shawn story a little bit for folks that might not know who you are. Tell us a little bit about yourself, give us that kind of a bit of the story there. Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah, so I didn’t grow up wanting to be a pastor. Nobody my family had ever been in ministry, you know. I grew up in Alabama, man. We are all my my grandparents and all his brothers – they were all in bar fights. They’d all been stabbed and shot, you know, and so and then my my grandfather broke the cycle. Um, godly man, you know, and got his family back in church. So um, I’m third generation you know Christ follower. You know my dad was the same – Baptist deacon, you know and but all I ever want to do is follow in his steps and do real estate. And I got my real estate license when I was 19 years old, started selling real estate on the side. By the time I’m 21 I’m making a 6 figure income, and that was in the early 90s, Rich. Rich Birch — Yes, back when 6 figures was like a big deal. Shawn Lovejoy — That’s that’s when 6 figures was a lot of money. Yeah. Rich Birch — Yes, exactly. Wow. Shawn Lovejoy — And I started teaching a college and career Sunday school class. Rich Birch — Oh nice. Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah, you didn’t know this part of my story did you? Rich Birch — Ah I didn’t know this this is new. This is great. Shawn Lovejoy — And and God swept the whole church really up in revival out of our Sunday school class. Rich Birch — That’s cool. Shawn Lovejoy — And like ruined us in the best way. And I walked in and told my dad I was leaving the family business and going to be a pastor. Rich Birch — Wow. Shawn Lovejoy — And he compared me to David Koresh that day. You know he told me he said even David Koresh thought he was doing God’s will. Rich Birch — Oh gosh – that’s a great opening line. Oh my goodness. Nice like it worked. Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — Ah ah well it made no sense. You know what I’m saying. And so served a couple traditional churches and then moved to metro Atlanta and started a church. You know it kind of grew, despite my preaching, into a megachurch. But I always felt like a business guy trapped in a pastor’s body. Rich Birch — Okay. Shawn Lovejoy — You know and I realized that I was good at the between Sunday stuff. Which is what seminary does not teach you… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes, right. Shawn Lovejoy — …thus the need for this podcast. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — Like I I started the church when I was 28, Rich. I was starting a church and I had never led a staff meeting. Rich Birch — Right. Amazing. Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — I had never hired anyone much less fired anyone before, nor had anyone ever taught me how to do any of that. So we had we had four and a half hour staff meetings on Mondays. Rich Birch — Nice – sort it all out. Get it all figured out on Monday. Shawn Lovejoy — That’s how I started. And so through great coaching you know and and school of hard knocks, you know and then I started coaching leaders. You know, just how to get better between Sundays, and how to stay sane, centered, and married in the process, like that’s that’s an important tenet of you know my coaching over the years. Rich Birch — Amy Amy Shawn Lovejoy — And so made the second scariest decision I made eight years ago to hand off the church and go full-time coaching. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Lovejoy — You know and we’ve been coaching marketplace and ministry leaders now for the last eight years, and I’m having the time of my life. We’ve got 17, 18 coaches now, you know it’s just crazy what God’s done. So. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Shawn Lovejoy — I never walked off a stage when I was a megachurch pastor, Rich, and said I like, I was made for that, honestly. Rich Birch — Okay, interesting. Yes, yeah, yeah, totally. Shawn Lovejoy — But like you know how that is, like I walk out of coffee shops and boardrooms now all the time and I’m like man, I’m good at that. Rich Birch — Yes, love that. Yeah yeah, totally. Shawn Lovejoy — God’s given me a gift I’m, you know so I can I’m decent on a stage, but I’m I’m better in circles than I am in rows. Rich Birch — Yeah, right. So good. And so you really have two parts of what you do. There’s the Courage to Lead side, which is is really about marketplace leaders—correct me if I’m wrong—and then you’ve got kind of the courageous pastor side which is about coaching pastors. Help me understand those two – give us like… I want to focus in on what you’re seeing in pastors particularly, but kind of talk to us about the two parts of what you do. Shawn Lovejoy — Well I always felt like because I had a previous life, you know outside vocational Ministry, a lot of what we were teaching was scalable to the marketplace. You know and I wrote my first book to pastors The Measure of Our Success with Baker Books. The editor of my book cried he said I’ve never been a pastor but all this personal leadership stuff you’re teaching like man, I need to hear this. I could… he tried to get me to expand it to marketplace leaders as well and I just said no, I just want to write to pastors. Because I’d had several pastors disqualify themselves in the process of building this thing they were building, and just passionate about it. So the goal all along was to take the organizational design principles and leadership principles that I’ve learned from great coaches, and scale it from the ministry into the marketplace as well, and we’ve been able to do that. For a while they lived under the same brand, you know, now we have Courage to Lead and Courageous Pastors and we’re coaching both. Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Well you spent a lot of time thinking about leaders. A part of why I love you and what I love what you do is there are folks who are in this space of you know, helping church leaders who I get the vibe from sometimes that that they just see us as a market. They just see us as like, hey we’re trying to like sell junk to churches. And that’s not you at all. I really do you give out the vibe and I’ve seen it consistently of your love for church leaders. Um, and which I I just want to hero and champion I think is fantastic. You spend a lot of time thinking about church leaders, talking to church leaders. What are you seeing these days? You know we’re coming up on 600 episodes I wanted to get you on and kind of tap your kind of meta thinking around where are church leaders at? What are you wrestling in what are they wrestling with? What are you hearing them thinking about consistently these days? Shawn Lovejoy — Well I would say you know first of all, you know three years ago 90% of my discussion with pastors was on the nuts and bolt side. 10% was on the personal side. Three years later the backside of political tensions, and pandemic pandemics, and racial tensions, and every other kind of possible accusation that pastors could have thrown at them in the last three years, you know it’s now 90% personal and 10% nuts and bolts. Rich Birch — Flip-flopped. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — Like a lot of church leaders lost their swagger, I call it. Rich Birch — No, it’s true. Shawn Lovejoy — In in the last three years like we we just we’re just trying to stay out of off the front page, stay out of the headlines… Rich Birch — Yeah, yes, yep. Shawn Lovejoy — …you know not be accused of something we didn’t do, trying to be so careful and so tentative. If you’re not careful, you still can get in that mode where you’re playing defense all the time. You know so one of the things we’re talking a lot to pastors about is like, hey we got to get back off of our heels and get back up on the balls of our feet again. We got to start thinking. Let’s not let’s don’t move the target, move the bullseye, settle for less. Like the Lord wants your church to grow, more than you do. Rich Birch — Oh that’s so good. Shawn Lovejoy — So don’t over spiritualize this. Okay, he wants your church healthy things grow so we need to hold ourselves accountable to that and we can’t blame the pandemic forever. We got to we got to get back, you know and play offense. But that takes some you know some some they got to get their confidence, their courage back, you know to to take new ground in Jesus’ name. Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s talk about that. So I love that. I’ve seen that as well. I think there is we’ve all taken a hit in these last number of years. Shawn Lovejoy — We all have. Yeah. Rich Birch — And and it’s this sense of like, oh gosh I’m not sure, you know what is it that God’s calling us to do. I do sense that there’s a pivot, as in conversations I’m having, there’s more and more leaders are leaning into… they’re not talking about rebuilding. We’re we’re done thinking about the percentage of people that were with us in 2019. Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah. Rich Birch — We’re like okay these are the people that are here. Let’s let’s build from here. What are you doing to help them get back in the game? What kind of coaching are you giving them? How are you helping but to kind of regain that swagger as you say? What’s that look like? Shawn Lovejoy — One, you know I’ve been telling a lot of guys—it’s a beautiful biblical metaphor. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Lovejoy — You know in Jewish culture some still true but ah orthodox do, you know, that when they when there’s a death, they have ah a period of grieving publicly signified by the sackcloth and ashes idea. But then there’s like that day of declaration when when the the period of grieving is over, and widows date again. It’s okay to ask a widow out on a date. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — You know I’ve told pastors like you need to grieve the loss that we had because that will affect you. It’s called PTSD and as much as 50% of pastors could be clinically diagnosed with PTSD. I really but do believe that. But there comes a day of declaration when it’s no more. We’re no more focused on the loss, like you say. Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Shawn Lovejoy — We don’t have 70%, we don’t have 80%, we got 100% – that’s what we got. We got a new launch team for the next level. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah so good. Yeah I love that. Yes, yep. Shawn Lovejoy — So we’re not going to talk about who’s missing anymore. We’re not going to talk about who’s left anymore. End of discussion. And I think there’s power in saying, no more. After today we got what we got, we’re going with the goers. The good news is everyone hasn’t left… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — …and and now we’re going to develop a strategy to take what we’ve got and treat them as a launch team to go into the future. Rich Birch — Okay. Shawn Lovejoy — And there’s power I think there’s spiritual and emotional power in that. Rich Birch — Yeah, so you haven’t heard episodes that we’re recording so Greg Surratt said exactly the same thing. He was like, listen friends we have to treat the people that are… Shawn Lovejoy — He probably stole it from me somewhere. Rich Birch — Yeah I’m sure he, you know, but ah hey I think that’s important like let’s lean in here folks, we’re hearing similar things here. Ah and he literally was the same language around we should be thinking about this as a new launch team that it’s like, hey you know and and he obviously talks to a lot of church planters and you know and there have been a you know ton of churches that have taken a hit. And seeing like okay I’m I’m back to just a couple hundred people. But hey if you were to start with a couple hundred people um, ah that would be amazing. You would have loved it right? You’d be like this is incredible. Um. Shawn Lovejoy — I tell guys, you know Rich, I say how many people were here this past Sunday? And they’re like well you know, only 200 or or only a hundred or whatevers. Like and what was your giving? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — Okay, all right. It was you know $3000 let’s just so let’s be very very concerned. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — …say if I went to a church planter… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — …and said I’ve got a core group of a hundred and a hundred and fifty thousand dollars that I’ll hand you… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — …over the would you what… how many church planters you think would take that deal? Rich Birch — Yes, all day long. Yes, all day long. Absolutely. Shawn Lovejoy — Ah yeah, it’s matter perspective. Rich Birch — Yes, absolutely, yeah. I love it. So let’s think about that. So we’re we’re talking to some church leaders. We’re trying to encourage them, hey you you know we’re let’s think about the people that were you know they’re with us. They’re a launch team. That that means building teams again. That means rebuilding the people we’ve got. That means kind of redeploying them. What would be some of those practical steps about enlisting the people that are with us? Kind of helping them get plugged in helping them end up in, you know the right seat on the bus. All those kinds of things. What kind of things should we thinking about that that? Shawn Lovejoy — One of the things we learned through the pandemic is one of the most indicting things about a lot of churches we talked with is not they couldn’t… it wasn’t just fringe people that left, it was leaders that left, and they didn’t even know where they were. Rich Birch — Yeah yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — So we’ve worked with a lot of fast-growing churches. But and I attend one now. But during the pandemic a lot of those churches looked around and said we we can’t even find our leaders. Like we’re not as close to we as we thought we were to our leaders. So I think the opportunity now is not focus on followers, getting more followers. But with this new launch team you know, to really look at building leaders at every level. So the new team I’m building is not a much of ministry doers, they’re ministry developers, and we’re going to build teams at every level. And the next time some calamity comes along, because it’s going to come along – Jesus sort of promised that, you know we’re going to be strong at the center. Shawn Lovejoy — We’re not going to have people we pay to do ministry, and we’re going to build a leadership culture. And you’re responsible for not just making Sundays happen but reproducing yourself. I want a list of people you’re meeting with. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — That you’re training to think like you think, see what you see, say what you say, and we’re going to make that part of our metrics on our staff going forward. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — That you’re reproducing yourself in the lives of others, and we’ll be stronger next time if we’ll start at the center and build out that way. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that. Let’s lean in a little bit more on that. I think we all agree Ephesians 4 we should be building up. Our job is not to do the ministry. We need to be equippers of the saints. That’s what we’re called to do. But we all seem to be caught in this temptation of let’s just find some doers, or or maybe even more pointedly, let’s pay some doers because then I don’t have to develop people. Um push the push more on that. Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah. Rich Birch — Tell tell us more about the distinction between a doer and a leader. Help us understand that. Shawn Lovejoy — It’s like everything else that God has taught us. I mean his his his teachings are not restrictive. They’re freeing. I mean you know, I tell guys the the tagline for the book is “this doesn’t have to kill you”. Rich Birch — Hmmm. Shawn Lovejoy — Like if you’re if you’re overwhelmed right now and you’re overextended, you’re over committed. You have to ask yourself is it because Jesus has put more on me than human what’s humanly possible… Or is it because I’m a control freak… Rich Birch — Right, right. Shawn Lovejoy — …and I think nobody can do it better than me? Rich Birch — Yeah, right. Yes, yes, right. Shawn Lovejoy — And I I want I want or can’t build a team. You know so one is that it’s that spiritual desire and commandment but two it’s it’s leadership’s a spiritual gift. So pastors need to hear the mandate to say we need to put people in leadership positions not that push buttons and move chairs, which is what we tend to hire. We tend to look for doers, technicians. Rich Birch — Yes, right. Shawn Lovejoy — When we’re better off… God knew there’s not enough money to go around to pay everybody to do ministry. And very few people were paid to be good in the new testament church. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — Very few of them. And money was scarce. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — You know and it can and can and will be scarce at times with us. We’re never gonna have enough money to pay everybody to do ministry. He knew that would be a lid to the church. So he said, you guys that are the elders you gotta you got to teach people, you got to equip people rather than do the work of the ministry. Rich Birch — So why do you think we’re so tempted towards doers? Why why does? Why do we? Shawn Lovejoy — It’s quicker. Rich Birch — It’s quicker. Shawn Lovejoy — It’s quicker. It’s faster. It’s plug and play. Rich Birch — Okay, yeah, yes, yeah yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — I mean it’s it’s easier for me to just grab somebody and put them on staff and start paying them. You know because Sunday’s always coming. It comes every seven days. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Lovejoy — You know it’s the tyranny of the urgent over what’s really really important. So but the cool thing is it is measurable. Like I I can I can I can raise the value of this in our organization and say, you’re no longer just going to be prized for making junk happen. Like you’re actually going to be valued and indispensable here by giving your job away over time. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, love it. It’s It’s so good. You know I think we’re always, you know, leadership development is one of those pieces where it’s like it’s like we all know we’re called to that. we all know hey that’s the thing we’re called to do but then actually so few of us actually hunker down and do the week-in/week-out… What would be some of those habits that you’ve seen, or those kind of repetitive things that leaders who develop other leaders just seem to do all the time? …They find themselves repeating time and again? Shawn Lovejoy — Well, you know it starts at the top. I mean I was just with a you know megachurch this this week who knocked it out. You know had 8000 people there for Easter – is an all time high for them. Their biggest auditorium seats 900 people… Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Shawn Lovejoy — …and 8000 people they’re just people everywhere. But I asked the pastor, I said how many times you teach this past year? He said I think 48 something like that. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Yes, yeah, yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — Dude, it starts at the top. Starts at the top. Like you need to be here those 48 Sundays, perhaps, but you need to get get get down to about 35 Sundays a year. Not just for your benefit, but you need to pick 4 to 6 Sundays this next year, let somebody else teach, and you be there and debrief after every single service, like that’s how you build a deeper bench. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — You know we usually don’t give our job away in ministry until we’re on vacation. But like the new value is like I want you to have four Sundays a year. Let’s just start there. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Lovejoy — Four Sundays a year when you’re not on vacation, but someone’s doing your job. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — Worship leader, one Sunday a month. Okay, you can’t be on the stage you’re here can’t be on the stage. Rich Birch — Right, right. Shawn Lovejoy — So like you can begin to systemize this at every level, and like raise that value. That man the goal is not just performing, producing events and services and getting my atta-boy atta-girl because of that… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — But like I’m I’m I’m reproducing myself and other people and that’s championed on our team. And valued and that’s what makes me indispensable. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — A lot of leaders get insecure like, but if I get off the stage, you know… You know that they might like the new guy better or whatever. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — But that’s that’s pride. That’s fear. None of those things come from God. That’s straight from the evil one. We have to wrestle those things to the ground. In reality I’ve been the senior leader. Man the most indispensable people on my team were people who had that knack of giving their job away. The ones that couldn’t became the bottleneck, you know. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — They hit a lid and and everybody will. Rich Birch — Yeah, there’s an interesting thing there, you know, I think and I’ve seen this happen in my own life, I’ve seen it happen with other leaders where you know early on—maybe in our 20s or 30s—we have a measure of success. And oftentimes when you peel back the layers of what that is it comes down to, wow that person is like super-dedicated. They are um like they’ve got tons of energy. They are willing to come in early and leave late. And all of those things are good, but there’s a downside to that, which is um, you well, first of all, you can’t keep doing that. At some point that’s a that’s actually a function of your age and your you know energy and all of that, and that does wane eventually in life. I know that’s hard to believe, young leaders, but eventually that does wane and we don’t reinforce the right behavior early on which is you have got to develop people around you. That’s actually that’s the killer skill we’re all looking for at the end of the day that is the way you will be indispensable and never lose a job in the local church, which is if you can replace yourself time and again as opposed to you’re the person that was always here before the doors open and you’re here you know and late into the night working hard. But we but we all still do seem to pat those people on the head and be thanks so much for working. Shawn Lovejoy — It’s so true. It’s so true. Rich Birch — So so difficult. Um now you’ve written a book I want to dive into. Talk a little bit about this. It’s called Building a Killer Team—I love this—Without Killing Yourself or Your Team. We don’t want to kill anybody ah… tell us about this. Why did you write this book? And we want to I friends we’re going to send you to killerteambook.org – we want to send you there today. But tell us about why you wrote this book. What was it that led you to say, hey now’s the time to write this book? Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah, well you know we’ve been coaching and teaching for years around what we call the gears of growth, like I can trace every growing or non-growing church really back to three things. It’s the culture, the team, or the systems. And they’re separate but interdependent gears. Shawn Lovejoy — You know and we’ve talked about as you said earlier coaching leaders through what keeps them awake at night. I could promise every leader who’s listening to your podcast today. The number one thing that keeps them awake at night? People. Finances is number two, but it’s people. And the two biggest lies from hell ever believed is like, it’ll be easier when we get to here. Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Shawn Lovejoy — And if I can hire this person, it will solve all my problems. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — You know, then you realize every person is a problem, you know. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — And so I sought out to sort of take a lot of our coaching on and around what we’d done in terms of like how to build great healthy teams. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Lovejoy — And build it into a framework or a sequence. And shout out to you. I don’t want this time to get away from you because I I sought out some of the smartest people I know… I say in the book like every great decision and great idea ought to come out of out of a out of collaboration not isolation. You know and so knowing that I wanted to put together a framework, a sequence, and a little bit tighter in a knit way um I reached out to you and my buddy Kenny Jahng, you know over three years ago, if you can believe that. Rich Birch — It’s been that long?! Gosh. Shawn Lovejoy — You know and I said hey guys, help me. Like I’ve got a lot of great stuff here bouncing around in my head, but I want to build like a mandate. I want to build a sequence. I want to build a framework. I want to build a job description for how a leader can build a killer team without killing themselves for their team. But I didn’t use that word and you were the ones spoke up and said, you know what you’re describing? You’re describing a killer team. And I’m like bam! That’s it! You know God was loud, and it was birth out of that meeting. Rich Birch — Right. It’s funny. Yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — You know in collaboration with some friends. So shout out to you and God speaking through you, and then it was just off to the races. It just made a lot of sense and I later went looked it up – it’s on the back cover of the book. The first word the first definition of the word killer is a murderer, somebody that slays people, you know… Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — …but the adjective is something that’s strikingly impressive or effective. Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — And I thought that’s it. That’s it. That’s how … So so ah so the the goal of this work was to get up, give a job description to a leader who says I I need to be a better team leader, team builder, and I’m kind of overwhelmed, kind of overextended, kind of overcommitted, kind of overexposed – something we taught as a leader. And I look like I’m always available, and I’m in the middle of the weeds and I can’t get out, and that was the heart behind the book. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. So The thing I love about it is it is a sequence. It’s a you know, it is a a process. It’s a a way to understand how to step through developing. Can you give us a sense of that process – kind of give us a you know, maybe a few of those highlights that have been like, okay here are some important steps in this process that we need to make sure um that we follow as we’re building our relaunch team, as we’re thinking about you know, rebuilding the teams around us. Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah, so we we talk about five in the book – five pillars of a killer team. One is to foster togetherness. You know we’ve got to we’ve got to help the the worship ministry care about the children’s ministry. Because I hate to tell you this, they don’t care about the children’s ministry. Rich Birch — True. Shawn Lovejoy — Like we have to get the team and the family at the table, get them communicating with each other, learning from each other. And I say in there, killer teams are not just committed to the mission. They’re committed to each other. Rich Birch — So good. Shawn Lovejoy — And of course that that goes hand-in-hand to what Lencioni says in The Advantage. He says a highly-aligned, highly-cohesive leadership team is the competitive advantage. And I think that’s true in church, by the way. It’s not… they’re all we’re all singing the same songs, teaching out of the same book. Why are why are a few growing and many aren’t? It’s it’s this team piece. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Lovejoy — It’s a leader’s ability to build a cohesive leadership team, and then recruit and build great talent. You know you got… I tell people average talent will sign up on a card and raise their hands, you know. Elite talent has to be recruited. And then you got ah you gotta you gotta to keep that talent. And then we talk about bolstering accountability, and building what we call last 10% culture and we we encourage more conflict in the book. A healthy conflict, rather than artificial harmony. And then structuring for growth and peace, and that’s you know reproducing. We talk about building one-pizza teams. I don’t want more people reporting to a leader that can split a pizza. Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Love it. So good. Shawn Lovejoy — Because I can manage more people than that, but I can’t reproduce myself in 15 people. Rich Birch — Right. No. Shawn Lovejoy — I’m not that good. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — You know Jesus only selected 12 – how many you think we can do? Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Lovejoy — You know and he spent more time with 3. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — So the good news is more people can lead 4 people than can lead 15 people. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, I love that. Shawn Lovejoy — So it’s that’s literally your leadership pipeline. And then maintaining rhythms and and finish lines. You know it’s it’s making sure we set a team culture where there’s like ah a daily finish line. We can’t be working all the time. A weekly finish line, and a so a rhythm in our culture where we celebrate wins more often. I was talked I talked with the CEOs of two of the ministry staffing companies – two of the biggest ones. This the ministry search firms in North America – you would know they’re known if I called them. And the great resignation has happened in the church as well as the marketplace. Rich Birch — Sure. Shawn Lovejoy — And one Harvard Business review, and I think this is true for ministry, one of the primary reasons people are are giving for resigning from their positions is not going somewhere else for more money. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Lovejoy — It was that we never celebrate the wins here. Like nothing’s ever good enough. Rich Birch — Oh yeah, that’s good. Shawn Lovejoy — You know and Sunday’s always coming, and the next series has got to be better than the last series, and we got raise the bar and we’re about excellence because that’s what Bill Hybels said you know blah blah blah blah blah and like nothing’s ever good enough and and we we never celebrate progress and… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — …the the simple little life change stories that make ministry worth it all, you know? And so. Rich Birch — Well and that I think is a particular danger in the church world because Sunday is always coming, because we are on this treadmill, and you know and you you know you feel this. And you know you come through whatever big day Christmas, Easter, you know some huge things happen, baptism Sundays, whatever that looks like in your church. And I know for me I have to fight I have to fight the feeling inside at like one o’clock two o’clock Sunday afternoon where it’s like okay well here comes the next one. The next one’s coming like we you know that’s we just need to move on. But we’ve got to slow down. We’ve got to you know say okay, let’s celebrate. I love that that’s you know, defined finish lines. That’s really really good. Shawn Lovejoy — I say in the book, Rich, that some of the most depressing times in my life as a megachurch pastor was in the car on the way home from Easter services after hitting our numerical goal… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — …and realizing, oh stink. Rich Birch — Yeah, we just raised the bar. Shawn Lovejoy — Sunday comes in seven days – like it’s so fleeting. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shawn Lovejoy — You know that’s what I mean by the fact that this this numerical thing, it’s a mirage. Like you’re if you’re not happy now, you’re not going to be happy there. Rich Birch — Right right. Shawn Lovejoy — And it’s learning to enjoy the day and live in this rhythm between intensity and rest every day. And enjoying the journey, because it gets more complex. It gets more difficult as God blesses it. So I got to make sure I’m in this for the long haul. Rich Birch — Love it. Can you give us some practical coaching around, you know, we all love to acquire. We all would love to acquire like the best team ever. We would all be like we’d like to find these people, raise them up, put them on our team, and be like these are like you know these are experts in all these areas. But you know we all have folks on our team that maybe are not just not cutting it in one way or another. They’re just not um, living up to our expectations. They’re maybe not living up to their own expectations. What coaching would you give to us on what we how we should help get them realigned, or frankly move them out? What what would what does that look like for us? Because that’s a part of building a killer team right is that… Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — …hey you know there’s going to be some folks that maybe aren’t performing as well. They’re not in the killer category yet. What’s that look like? Shawn Lovejoy — I think I got to like like three chapters in the book on that but I’ll try to do it in 60 seconds or less. You know one… I have a leader called—you’ll love this, Rich—I mean you had this a million times happened to you. Like I’ll have a senior leader or a team leader, you know, call me and they’re frustrated about somebody on their staff or on their team, and they’re whining, and groaning. And and they’re like what do you think I should do? And I’m like, well first of all have you told them what you just told me? Rich Birch — It’s so true. So true. Shawn Lovejoy — 99 out of a hundred times, you know what their answer is. Well no, not exactly. I’m like well first of all, that lacks integrity. If you’re frustrated by people on your team, and you’re not telling them, like that lacks integrity. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Lovejoy — You need to be willing to be clear and honest with them about not meeting your expectations. And the cool thing about that is the clearer we get with our expectations of a team member, the more it allows them to hear from the Holy Spirit. And self-select, opt-out, you know, etc. For them to come to the… it’s better for them to come to the conclusion they can’t keep up then you come to that conclusion privately and then go surprise them by it. You know and if we’re thinking about moving somebody, or managing them off the team like Lencioni says. And I tell leaders if they would be surprised by that conversation, we haven’t been honest with them along the way. Rich Birch — Yes. Right. Absolutely. Shawn Lovejoy — So it begins with like an honesty and a clarity. And here’s where you’re winning. Here’s where you’re not winning. Here’s what’s acceptable. Here’s what’s not acceptable. I owe you that kind of honesty, owe you grace, honesty but I also owe you proper placement. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — Like I owe you the privilege of being in a seat on the bus that aligns with your gifting, your wiring, and your level of talent. If I put you in over your head, it’s gonna steal your joy, and it’s gonna steal my joy. Rich Birch — Yeah, Love it. Shawn Lovejoy — So that’s why we’ve got to hang on to our roles loosely and keep our eyes on the goal, you know? And so all of that spiritual enterprise and that conviction and courage to be more candid and not try to be the most popular person on the team, be the most respected person on the team, and to be really, really honest and courageous with our with our teammates puts ourselves and our teammates in our best position to hear from God, and know whether we’re meeting expectations or not. Rich Birch — Yeah there’s no doubt that candor is kindness, right? That we want to be super clear with people on where they’re at and the earlier we can do that, the better. Um, you know I know in my own life I’ve respected leaders who have come to me early and been like, hey this is not meeting my expectations. I would way rather that than… because we’ve all been in the opposite of those conversations where it’s like they’re they’re describing something that happened last week but you can tell that there’s emotional baggage from a year ago, two years ago, ten years ago… Shawn Lovejoy — Yep yep. Rich Birch — …and you can smell that stuff a mile away. And we just know then then I feel and I feel stupid as a leader. I’m like I can’t believe you didn’t talk to me about this. We could have sorted this out. Love that. Love that. Love that. Well, where do we want to send people, you know, I want to make sure people pick up a copy of this this book. So where do we want to send them want to send them to killerteambook.org – tell us more about that. What what do we want to where do we want to send them all those kind of things? Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah, well I self-published with my my friend and coach Sam Chan’s …(?)… labels mainly because I wanted to get the book as cheap as possible so I could give it away. You know I don’t need to I don’t need to try to get rich or famous on books. I’m a coach. Rich Birch — Totally. Shawn Lovejoy — But but I want this content out to as many leaders as possible. So we’re able to get give give almost give the book away… Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Shawn Lovejoy — …you know for shipping plus cost and you know by not signing with a national publisher. Rich Birch — Yep. Shawn Lovejoy — So you’ll see that reflected at killerteambook.org literally for the cost of me printing the book and shipping it to you. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, love it. Friends, this is incredible. You know you know this book is worth, while it’s worth multiple times… you know the content is worth you know a hundred times what you’re going to pay for it or more – a thousand times what you’re going to pay for it. Ah, but even just you know you know from a book point if if you go there, you’ll see it’s a super low price. Like it’s say it’s just cost plus shipping, which is amazing. This would be a great tool for for teams to do together. is that the best place we want to do that there too if I’m looking for multiple copies – should I just send everybody on my team there to pick up their own copy? Is that the best for that? Shawn Lovejoy — Yep yep, you can that literally. There’s a couple bump ups you can buy 3 copies 10 copies. Rich Birch — Yep. Shawn Lovejoy — You know there’re on the site if you want extra copies for your team. And I should say you know one of the reasons we wrote the book the way we did, it’s not just for ministry leaders. It’s for marketplace leaders. Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Shawn Lovejoy — So I say to senior pastors, and stewardship pastors, and executive pastors like you, you getting some of these for the Christian CEOs and… Rich Birch — Oh that’s a great idea. Shawn Lovejoy — …and and Christian leaders in your congregation, you know, um, they’re all trying to build a killer team and you can get some street cred. Rich Birch — Oh totally. Shawn Lovejoy — By giving them a book that’s safe. It’s not loaded with Christian-ese, you know, because they may or may not be as devout in their faith. You know as you want them to be. And they also might be leading teams that are diverse spiritually. So I sort of wrote it through those lenses as well. But it’s a safe book to give to the Christian leaders in your congregation. And you’ll get some street cred by adding some value to their lives. You know because… Rich Birch — I love it. That’s a great idea. Shawn Lovejoy — Yeah yeah. Rich Birch — You know I think particularly you know we we have those sometimes we don’t know what to do with marketplace leaders in our church. We don’t know how do we connect with them. I know there’s church leaders that are listening in that are a bit perplexed on how to engage with them. I love that idea – hey buy 10 but buy 10 copies of the book—friends, you won’t believe how cheap it is—and you know wrap it up, write a nice note on the cover, hey I was thinking about you as you lead at X organization… Shawn Lovejoy — Gold. Rich Birch — Um, you know my friend Shawn wrote this book – I think you’ll find it helpful. Let’s get together in a month and talk about it. Man, that would be amazing. I love that – that’s a great idea. So good. Well Shawn, this has been incredible. I appreciate your time today. Anything else you want to share just as we wrap up today’s episode? Shawn Lovejoy — I’ll just close by saying you know the team is not the frustration. It’s not the interruptions, not the distraction. It’s not the footstool to build your kingdom. You know the team is the work. That’s what I say in the book. I mean the team is the work. And and at the end of the day I’m proud of a lot of things God’s accomplished through my life, but but but um, ah, all the books and the institutions and the nickels and the noses, and you know zeros – if you want me to boast about something I’ll talk about that the men and women I’ve been able to reproduce myself in. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Right. Shawn Lovejoy — You know they have great ministries today. You know who came to a really really difficult spot in their life and I coached them through that… Rich Birch — Love it. Shawn Lovejoy — …and they broke through. And you know whatever. Your legacy will be people. Rich Birch — Yeah. Shawn Lovejoy — It’s so it’s it’s crazy that we would have that conversation in ministry, Rich, but we do. Rich Birch — Yeah, no, it’s true. Shawn Lovejoy — Make it about people. The team is the work it is. It is the closest group to you that you have an opportunity to disciple… Rich Birch — Yes, love it. Shawn Lovejoy — So don’t just use them to build this kingdom, man, reproduce yourself in them. That’s what you’ll be most proud of one of these days. Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. So good. Ah so killerteambook.org – is there anywhere else we want to send them online if people want to track with you or with what you’re up to? Shawn Lovejoy — Of course couragetolead.com is our marketplace expression of what we do. And then courageouspastors.com and the Courageous Pastors podcast over there is what we do on the on the ministry side of things. Rich Birch — Right, right. Shawn Lovejoy — Lots of free stuff there. Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Shawn. Appreciate being here today. Shawn Lovejoy — Thank you, man.

Executive Pastor Kevin Cook reflects on his journey from public accounting to ministry at Cross Point Church. He shares insights on personal growth, leadership transitions, and connecting with God. Topics include soul care, faith, prayer, and building a new leadership team.

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Greg Surratt, the founding pastor of Seacoast Church in the Carolinas and also a founding member of ARC, Association of Related Churches, which trains, coaches, and equips church plants across the country. So many pastors are wrestling with similar concerns and soul care issues today. They are wanting to know, “Is it ok where my church is right now?” Listen in as Greg shares from his own ministry experience over the decades and offers wisdom and encouragement to struggling church leaders. You’re not alone in your struggles. // The last couple of years have been some of the hardest between the pandemic changing everything, racial tensions, the elections, division about vaccines, mask-wearing, and more. Church leaders are dealing with so many emotional issues from all of these burdens in addition to their concerns about their church. Depression, anxiety, trauma, and grief are all very real for many pastors right now.Go by faith. // Discouragement can be an occupational hazard in ministry. There are times in your life when you don’t feel encouraged, but you still need to encourage others. By faith keep doing what you need to do. But having internal disconnect should be the exception and not the norm. Examine your life to make sure you have an integrated inside and outside. Living with this sort of integrity is the only way to sustain ministry for the long haul.Find friends who can help you. // Get a group of people around you who love you and are an encouragement to you, but also people who are not impressed with you and will call out pride in your life. Surround yourself with people who know you, are concerned about your future, and want to help you get from here to there.Focus on what God has given. // Don’t look at your church’s pre-COVID attendance numbers. That’s in the past. We aren’t entitled to thousands, or hundreds, or even tens. Express gratitude for the people God has brought to you and be the best pastor you can be to the people you have right now. Culture trumps vision. // Greg believes that the most important part of the founding team for a new church is having someone who can create culture. Culture is treating people right and creating a place where they all feel valued and part of something bigger than themselves. If you can get a visionary leader who knows how to treat people right, create culture, develop leaders, and call out the potential in those around them, it’s a strong recipe for future success.Live well and finish strong. // Many pastors don’t have a group of friends who understand what they are struggling with and can come around them. This need led Greg to start taking groups of church leaders on retreats. During this time away there is no agenda, but rather attendees can just rest, relax and experience the peace of God. At night they process with each other what God is doing in their lives, and allow time for friendships to be built with each other.Don’t give up. // God never wastes a crisis. It’s in these seasons that he establishes us and our leadership is built. If we remain faithful and persevere, we will see a harvest and realize what a privilege it is to lead at this time. If you want to follow along with Seacoast Church, find them at www.seacoast.org. Or if you’d like to know more about the retreats Greg mentions, visit www.retreatatchurchcreek.org Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Industries Doing Church in a Rented Facility can be a Challenge. Questions about Multisiting or Portability?Click here to connect with our Multisite Specialist for a free evaluation. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well hey, everybody, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited to have you with us today. I’m super excited for our guest. His name’s Pastor Greg Surratt – he’s a fantastic leader from a church that if you don’t know, I don’t know where you’ve been. Greg is the founding pastor of Seacoast Church. They have, if I’m counting correctly, 12 physical locations in North and South Carolina, plus church online. It began way back in 1988 with 65 people in an apartment clubhouse and has really become a preeminent church across the country. Greg is also a a founding member of ARC – Association of Related Churches. We’ve had a ton of ARC pastors on over these last number of years, and just just love it so much. ARC is a fantastic organization that trains, coaches, and equips hundreds of church planters. They’ve done I think a thousand church plants across the country. Super excited to have you on the podcast today, Pastor Greg. Greg Surratt — Glad to be here. It’s an honor, Rich, appreciate it. Rich Birch — Now this will be great. We for folks that maybe have been following in they’ll know we’re closing in on 600 episodes, and I know I said this to you, but I was like who are the people I’d love to have on that I’ve never had on and you were at the top of the list. So glad that you’re here. Why don’t you fill out the story a little bit kind of what am I missing? What piece of the puzzle do you know do I need to we need to bring people up to speed on? Greg Surratt — Well, the most most important part is I’m married to my girlfriend of 45 years and we were high school sweethearts and I think we’re still sweethearts. Rich Birch — Nice. Greg Surratt — She still makes my heart go you know whatever pitter patter. And I think I don’t irritate her too much, so that’s good. Rich Birch — Oh nice. Greg Surratt — We have four kids they all live in the area and we have 14 grandkids, and that’s the best part. And so that’s kind of my life right now. Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. Well through your work, through ARC, and and just you know your heart I know you have just ah, just a huge bandwidth a huge love for leaders and church leaders, and and so I really wanted to pick your brain as we’re, you know, kind of 2 years out from the pandemic, we came through which was historically significant time as we you know, kind of wrestle through what’s next, I wanted to get your sense of the kind of conversations that you’re having with leaders ah these days. Whatw hat would you say are some of the things that are kind of top of mind as church leaders reach out to you, or you’re chatting with people these days? What are the things that you’re you’re wrestling with with them? Greg Surratt — Lots of soul care issues. As you mentioned, I think the last couple of years are the toughest leadership challenge that I’ve seen in my lifetime. And you know with the pandemic and racial tension, elections, you know, the craziness of you know vaccines or no vaccines… Rich Birch — Yes. Greg Surratt — …all the stuff that we’ve all had. And what’s interesting is I’ve talked to… we we started a retreat center about a year ago just to deal with soul care for pastors, and so I’ve talked to over 500 pastors over the last year in pretty in-depth situations and circumstances, and everybody’s feeling the same thing. Everybody wants to know is it okay where I’m at… Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — …as far as my church you know, um. We’re nowhere close to where we were pre-pandemic – is that okay? Where where’s everybody else? There’s kind of you know I don’t know if it’s comparison as much as it’s just want to know, am I okay? And then you know dealing with heart issues, emotional issues, the trauma of the last few months. I know I was talking to one psychologist and I said it’s almost like PTSD. And he said, no, in a lot of cases it is PTSD. You know it’s it’s just traumatic, traumatic stuff. And then you know then where do we go from here? What do you think? You know is is the church done? Are people coming back? Who’s coming back? You know, just all of those kinds of questions. Rich Birch — Yeah, well I’d love to dive into the soul care question a little bit. So I’ve spent most of my ministry career two, almost three decades, two and a half decades ah, in that second seat, at that kind of executive pastor seat, and have served with just incredible people as the lead pastor in the churches, you know I’ve had a privilege to serve in. And one of the things I’ve observed from my seat is there’s this interesting um, it could be occupational hazard of, particularly lead pastors. I think I think we all do it to a certain extent but I think particularly lead pastors can be prone to this or or it’s kind of built into their job where what we project publicly, and how we’re doing privately ah, there can be a disconnect there. And so there’s a part of that that’s like healthy, because it’s like hey we do have to kind of lead. We want to push people forward. We want to you know help understand you know want to give people hope for the future. And then that eventually if we if we if that if there continues to be a distance a gap between those two, wow we get into a dangerous, dangerous place. Help us understand that gap a little bit more why why you know is that an occupational hazard? What should we be thinking about when we think about this kind of gap and and and where does it go from being reasonable, responsible leadership to like oh, now you’re in a dangerous zone, when that gap gets too large. Greg Surratt — Yeah, um, and I’ve never heard it as an occupational hazard. That’s totally right. Rich Birch — I think it is. Greg Surratt — You know I always say that I always say that discouragement is an occupational hazard of Ministry… Rich Birch — Yes. Greg Surratt — …and that you’re going to get there. You just got to figure out um, how do I not stay there. Rich Birch — Yes. Greg Surratt — You know David encouraged his heart in the Lord and so that’s a whole nother issue. But yeah, um, it’s amazing how weekends come about every seven days. Rich Birch — Right. So true. Greg Surratt — And and ah every seven days you’ve got to be an encourager with your you know with ah with a word from God. And there are times in your life where you don’t feel encouraged. I mean I know I you know I’ve done over the years marriage series and actually we don’t do as many series on those anymore because every week when I would do a marriage message we would have the biggest fight that we’ve had you know in years. Rich Birch — Yes. Greg Surratt — And I have to get up on the weekend and go… Rich Birch — Yes. Greg Surratt — …hey here’s how to have a biblical marriage. Rich Birch — Yes. Greg Surratt — So I couldn’t I couldn’t sustain a whole series on that so you know with that. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Greg Surratt — You know you’ve got you’ve got those types situation, if you have family, you know and and I would say you know one one antidote is to always drive two cars to church on the weekend. Rich Birch — Nice, give me some extra time. little extra time. Greg Surratt — I think that one I know well you don’t have a fight on the way there. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, yeah. Nice. Greg Surratt — You might have a fight before you leave but you don’t have one on the way there. And you know those are little disconnects that that happen and if you’re in any kind of leadership and if you’re expected you know to um, you know produce a message or a lesson or whatever it happens to be that you’re doing, there are going to be days you just don’t feel like it, and you don’t feel it, and you’ve got to, by faith, do what you need to do. But if you find yourself… that should be the exception. Rich Birch — Okay, that’s good. Greg Surratt — Okay and it is an exception that happens to all of us. But it needs to be the exception if that’s the world you’re living in then, Houston we have a problem. Rich Birch — Right, right. Greg Surratt — Because integrity is… I heard somebody define integrity as just being integrated – that the inside is integrated with the outside. And if you’re going to sustain ministry over the long haul you need to have an integrated inside/outside, this-is-who-you-are. And that’s sustainable. Putting on you know, putting on the the uniform and stocking it up. You got to do it every once in a while, but that is not sustainable. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — In the long run and that’s where people crash. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How do you… what’s your encouragement to leaders on who they should be reaching out to? A part of what I love—and I’m I’m not trying to pre-answer your question but—a part of the way I love how ARC is designed at a kind of um, you know fiduciary level with overseers who are leaders from other churches – I think there’s so much wisdom in that because because there’s something about being able to reach out to leaders who are a little farther down the road than you. But but let’s say you’re listening in today and there’s a leader who feels like, wow it’s not the exception, it’s become the rule. I am living this gap all the time and I don’t know who to reach out to. Where do we send them? Where should we where should they be reaching out to? Greg Surratt — Yeah, first of all I like to say that every leader needs to sit at a table with a group of people who love you, but are not impressed with you. Rich Birch — Oh so good. Greg Surratt — Where you can be real. You know because your church is impressed, and they they should be. I hope we’re living a life you know such that um people are proud of that, or people will celebrate that. Um, but you’ve got to get a group of people around you that love you, love you, love you. They are for you. They want to help you. But they’re not impressed with you. And they can see things. You know, what I do with the the and and we’ll more specifically try to answer your question in a minute. But in my own life um, what I try to do with the men that are around me, and I’ve got two or three groups of them, is encourage that I need men who will look for, that will encourage me but will also look for pride in my life. If there’s pride there there may be other, you know, issues and other types of sin according to the bible. And so I need people who are they love me, but they they are concerned about my future, and they want to help me to get from here to there. Now the question is what do you do if you don’t have anybody like that… Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — …and that’s where a lot of lot of pastors find themselves. One of the reasons we started a retreat here in Charleston a year ago was to gather groups of about 12 to 15 people. And then usually at the end of that, almost always at the end of that, you’ve got a small band of brothers. Not everybody you know takes the journey, but most do. And you’ve got somebody that that you can call on Sunday afternoon when you want to quit. Rich Birch — Yes. Greg Surratt — You know, ah here’s what I want to do, I just want to watch a violent movie on Sunday afternoon. I dont want to talk to anybody. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — I don’t want to plan anything. Just let me let me you know, chill out. But you’ve got to find friends… Rich Birch — Yes. Greg Surratt — …in ministry. That’s why we say don’t do ministry alone. You got to find friends. A band of Brothers who go, yeah I know, I know. I know, I’ve been there. I am there. Don’t quit. We’re gonna be okay. Let’s talk it through. You got to find that. And where do you find those? You know, you mentioned overseers… Rich Birch — Yep. Greg Surratt — Ah, that’s one avenue of of you know, use that. Some people just appoint overseers, which are elders, pastors, outside of the local church. Some people just you know, assign them, but don’t really use that… Rich Birch — Right, right. Greg Surratt — …and use that avenue and that’s that’s important. Other friends in Ministry, sometimes in the same town, sometimes that gets weird. Um, and so you know another ah possibility are mentors. Rich Birch — Yep yep. Greg Surratt — Ah, just and I like to say you know, don’t ever say no for somebody else. You know you say, boy I’d love to have so-and-so speak into my life a little bit – well ask them. Rich Birch — Right. Ask, reach out. That’s absolutely true. Yeah. Greg Surratt — Ask it. Yeah, give him a Starbucks card… Rich Birch — Right, totally. Greg Surratt — …you know and let’s stay on it. Let’s talk or can we do it once a month you know or once a quarter. And what’s been very effective to me too also our counselors. Rich Birch — Right, right. Greg Surratt — And I have a counselor who happens to be on our staff. It’s cheaper that way. Rich Birch — Nice. Love that fantastic. Greg Surratt — But yeah, but he’s my friend. And he also is an 8 on the enneagram, so he loves to you know, get to the issues. Rich Birch — Lean in. Greg Surratt — Lean in, yeah. And I’m a 3 so I want to lean out and look good, you know. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, exactly. Greg Surratt — And but it’s you’ve got to have men, women in your life who care, care enough to confront, care enough to you know encourage, in the in the confrontation is encouragement. I mean if you don’t know me, don’t confront me, you know. I’m not listening. Rich Birch — Right, right. Greg Surratt — But if you know me, um I want people around me that can that can do that, and sometimes a counselor can get you through a stuck point so. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Well, we’ll come back to the retreat center. I want to hear more about that. But I want to loop back on something you said about you know that question that you keep hearing people ask is that like where do we go from here? Um, you know I think there has been a lot of questions. You know we’re all seem to be wrestling with this. You know you know what is what does our church online attendance mean? What does our weekend attendance mean? Who knows? What does all this mean? Is anyone ever going to come back? You know. So what are you seeing on that front? What are you coaching churches to be thinking about, church leaders to be thinking about on that front? Greg Surratt — Um, yeah, um, first of all, um, pre-covid attendance ought to be a number that you write down somewhere, put away, and don’t look at anymore. Rich Birch — Yes, amen, brother. Amen. Greg Surratt — You know that’s I was… hell is yesterday and this is today. And you know, um, some people are are looking at it as ah, a relaunch, you know. And maybe you’ve got 50 people on your relaunch team. Well, that’s pretty good. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Greg Surratt — Or 100, or you know five hundred, or a thousand. If I didn’t know what the pre covid number was I’d probably be pretty excited… Rich Birch — Yes, true. Greg Surratt — …about you know where we are, and what we’re doing right now. And so first of all, but let’s put that number away. Um, secondly um, who who is, let’s let’s take care of the people that we have right now. You know I I look around sometimes in the parking lot or on a weekend and go, my goodness. I’m amazed that this group of people has shown up today to worship Jesus and listen to a message. It’s an amazing thing. It’s an that that God would use you, that God would use me to do that is absolutely amazing. I’m not entitled to thousands or hundreds or even tens, I just need to to say God, thank you. And I am going to be the best pastor that I can be possibly. I had a an anecdote. I had a you know the online thing, you never know who was watching online. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — And I did a message the other day and ah, um, a fairly prominent person I had no idea was watching online and um and took issue with something I said, so we had a conversation. And in the conversation I realized that this guy I didn’t know I had opinions about is looking to me to be his Pastor. Rich Birch — Wow. Greg Surratt — He doesn’t need a critic. He doesn’t need somebody that’s you know, worried about why we don’t have as many people as we had before the the the pandemic. He needs a pastor. He needs… Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — He needs somebody to love him and care for him. And you know I re-upped in that moment… Rich Birch — So good. Greg Surratt — …to just care for the people that God has placed around me. If God put him on our online or in our church, then I need to do my best to care for what God has given me. You know while it’s true that if I’ll be faithful and little God’ll give me much, that’s not the motivation. The motivation for me is am I the best pastor I can be for the people that God has given me. And then he’s he’s well able to… Galatians 6:9 is you know, kind of my life verse. Everybody else gets a word every year, I’ve only gotten one verse in my lifetime… Rich Birch — Sure sure. Greg Surratt — …and it it’s the same one every year. And just a little new insight into it, but it says don’t be weary in doing good for in due season, He’ll bring a harvest. Harvest is coming… Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — …if we don’t quit. And what do we worry about, we stress over? The harvest. And you know when you take responsibility for an area you don’t have authority over, that’s God’s authority, then you’re gonna be stressed a lot. And so harvest is coming, whether that’s one, five, 5000 – God knows what’s best for me and for our situation. But yeah, I’m going to forget pre-covid numbers and I’m gonna I’m going to pay real close attention to who is there. Rich Birch — Yes Greg Surratt — Because they need a pastor. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. And you know we hear that time and again so many church leaders I’ve heard say that in this season where, you know they’re like I stand in my lobby on Sunday or in our lobby on Sunday morning, or on the weekends and like there’s a ton of people who are who I just do not recognize. There’s a bunch of new people that have come back to our churches, or are at our church. And, man, we do not want to miss those people. We don’t want because we’re thinking of people who might have been here you know two, three years ago. Gosh that would be a huge, huge mistake. I love that. That’s great coaching, Greg, for sure. So pivoting to ARC. I I just love ARC. I I think what God’s done through the band of friends that you pull together there to do the thing that you know has happened is is just amazing. When you think about those thousand now plus churches, what would be a few of those standout traits of um, the core teams – the people who are going and launching churches that seem to thrive and and make it? I’m sure there’s things that bubble to the surface of like, here’s a couple of those things that we just see time and again are the kinds of ah, groups of people who ah plant churches that that make a difference and thrive over the long haul. Greg Surratt — Well I think, you know, I think you need a visionary leader that, you know, has a vision for a community. Um I used to think that’s probably the most important. It is an important aspect, but I think I think somebody that can create culture is hugely important to last. So what does that mean? In its simplest form, culture is just treating people right. Jesus, you know, said, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That’s not that’s not real deep. That’s not real… it’s it’s hard. It’s not it is kind of simple, but it’s difficult to pull off. Paul says treat older men as fathers, younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, and he says by the way don’t hit on the sisters. He says do it in all purity. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah. Greg Surratt — That’s not rocket science. That’s family. But he’s talking about difficult difficult conversations in that particular passage. But if we can create a culture. If I if a pastor can create a culture where people feel loved, they feel valued, they feel you know that their needs are are important, and there’s not this hierarchy of who’s important and who’s not. Boy I’ll tell you what if if you get somebody with a vision that can create that kind of culture, and and then empower leaders, you know. They don’t feel like they have to do it all themselves, and can trust God that the leadership that we need is probably either in the house or in the harvest. And so we’re going to believe God for it and look for it. That’s one of the things I love doing is you know, speaking prophetically into somebody’s life. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Greg Surratt — Like like Jesus did where he said you know you you were this, to to Peter, he said you you were kind of swayed in the in the wind, you know and now you are Peter. You are a rock. You were Simon, now you’re Peter. And we see that several places in in scripture. You know, with with the Apostle Paul who was Saul, now he’s Paul. And the the symbolism there for me is is to take a look at the people that God has given you, and rather than wishing for someone or something you didn’t have, it’s let’s call out, prophetically, what is in those that God has given us, and develope those. So if you so kind of a long answer. Rich Birch — No, that’s good. I love it. Greg Surratt — But if you get if you get a visionary leader who knows how to treat people right, create culture, and can can develop leaders, can call out um the the potential in those around them, to me that’s a real strong um recipe for future success. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And you had mentioned there that you feel like you’ve had a shift or nuance in your time, particularly with you know, adding that culture creator piece in there. You’ve seen that it’s not that you didn’t think that was important. You’ve seen that as more important. Um, maybe talk a little bit more about that. What has what has shifted in your thinking around that over the years? Greg Surratt — I don’t I don’t know that I wouldn’t say that I didn’t think it was important. Rich Birch — Okay. Greg Surratt — I I didn’t I never thought about it. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — You know we started Seacoast 35 years or 34 years ago just about exactly, and um I was all about vision. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — You know vision, vision, vision. And I really didn’t pay a lot of attention to culture. I didn’t know how to spell the word. And and then when you you know when you start to add people to the team… every organization that has more than one person is gonna have issues. Rich Birch — Sure. Greg Surratt — You’re gonna have church dealings. You’re gonna have you’re gonna have issues. You’re gonna have hard conversations. You’re gonna want to avoid them, or or push in too strong with them. And that’s that’s where culture culture meets vision and culture will will eat vision all day long. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — If you have a bad culture where you’re turning over people, and turning over people or maybe it’s just negative, negative, negative. That’s gonna that’s gonna chew up vision every time. And so as I began to see that, I mean it’s important it’s hugely important – the environment that we work in, the environment that we worship in – that’s when for me, it made a shift to say vision’s good. Vision’s important, but culture trumps vision every time. Rich Birch — Well just to honor you you know publicly, one of the things I love about Seacoast is, you know, I’ve been in ministry long enough that you hear rumors of other churches, and one of the things that resonates off of Seacoast is, that’s a good place. That’s a good place. Ah you know, that’s ah you know that’s a that’s a good house. That’s a place where, you know, that you guys treat your people well, you treat your staff well, you know there’s good things there. So that you know clearly something’s happened under your leadership over the years there so. I wouldn’t want to let that moment pass. Greg Surratt — Well thank you. Rich Birch — So thank you for you know way, you’ve led that for sure. Greg Surratt — We do the best we can. And I want to you know I want to I want to have a house that I’d like to work in. Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah. Greg Surratt — If I wasn’t if I wasn’t the first one there you know, which is basically the reason I was in charge is because I was the first one there. Rich Birch — Nice. Greg Surratt — Yeah, and if I’m not the first one there, why would I stay? Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — Why would I why would I want to be here? And so that’s what we’ve tried to create. Rich Birch — Nice. Well, one last area I’d love to pick your brain on is just you’ve been such a strong advocate over the years of reaching unchurched people – that has been you know a key part of of your ministry, at least as an outsider. It’s been someone… I’ve seen you advocate for decades for that. How have unchurched people changed over your time? How how has the you know, what’s what’s different today than than maybe 35 years ago when you first got started in this? Greg Surratt — Yeah, you know 35 years ago it was about kind of leave them alone, and let them be anonymous, and you know all that went around went around that. And you know I mean there are some ah, fundamental values that probably are similar. But I think today people want to be a part. Rich Birch — So true. Greg Surratt — We we have a lot of people that join our serving teams before they ever join the church, or make a commitment to Christ, or you know anything like that. It’s they want to they want to make a difference with their life. And they um, and when I say they you know, that’s a broad brush there. There are as many different kinds of people as there as there are methods. But um, I feel like a lot of people that we’re in contact with. Don’t expect you to be perfect. In fact, they they suspect if it’s too perfect. If if the… Rich Birch — Right. Okay. It’s too glossy. Greg Surratt — …if it’s too glossy – that I’ve said for years and years and years rough it up, put some sandpaper on it. That’s too that’s too slick, that’s too glossy. And I not just of the experience, but I think of the leaders too. We want to be examples. But if we’re all the time you know, nailing it and it’s wonderful, and life’s great, there’s not going to be very many people that really are interested in that, because their life isn’t. And so help me… how do you navigate the hard stuff in life. How do you navigate? You know how have you gotten through? And so I don’t think you have to be as perfect. Rich Birch — Yes. In fact, if you’re if you’re more perfect, it’s probably not a good thing. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt —More authenticity, and more involvement, participation. In fact, we’ve changed our worship over the years from being, hey you don’t have to participate in this, to highly, highly, highly participatory. Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah I just recently was talking to some 20-something leaders, and we were reflecting on this exact point. And I said you know, when I started in ministry, there was this idea that that church leaders were like the perfect example. They were like… In fact, you wanted… it was like people wanted distant leaders who were kind of like they were super human. That was kind of what and and you could see these leaders look at me like, what are you talking about? That’s terrible. I can’t believe that! But I’m like, it’s true. Like that was that was, it was almost like that was the framework we were given. And that we all know that’s just not true anymore. I love that. That’s that’s so great. Greg, I wonder if you could tell us about the retreats you’ve been running. Give us a bit of insight into that – a little bit more what does that look like? And and if there’s people that are listening in today, we’ve touched on a couple issues that they might say, hm maybe that’s a kind of thing I’d love to be a part of. Greg Surratt — Sure. Rich Birch — Tell me a little little bit about that. Greg Surratt — Yeah I I began to, we began to notice a few years ago that we were doing a pretty good job of cranking out church plants. Rich Birch — Yeah. Greg Surratt — You know we’ve we’ve got we’ve helped people plant a thousand of them, and we’re going to do a thousand more you know I’m excited about that. We’re not going to stop doing that. But it was a little bit more difficult when it comes to keeping guys in the game. And I think we’ve all seen and heard examples. Is it a pandemic right now of pastors falling? I’m not sure that it is. I think that social media amplifies whatever is done. But if there’s one it’s not good. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — And we’ve all heard about many. And so the idea was, what can we do to to help guys live well and finish strong. That’s that’s kind of my motto. Rich Birch — Oh love that. Greg Surratt — I want to live well and I want to finish strong. And so we nosed around in it a little bit. I’ve I’ve taken guys on some retreats. And and then um, ah absolutely beautiful piece of land—66, actually 110 acres—on the water, just 30 minutes from downtown Charleston, which by the way is one of the most beautiful, romantic cities you can bring you know your spouse to. But place opened up and we almost immediately began hosting groups of pastors, 12 to 15 pastors, for Monday through Thursday. And they come in and we tell them right away, there’s no agenda. You can take a guilt-free nap if you need to. In fact, one guy took took a guilt free nap every day – hadn’t taken one in his life. Rich Birch — Ah, yes. Greg Surratt — I think he had 6 or 7 kids and planted a church during covid. He needed a nap, desperately. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Greg Surratt — But we’ve got all kinds of things to do: fishing is just world-class, and just a lot of things that that we can do, and we make provision for. But the idea is to come and just relax, experience the peace of God. At night we process around a table what God may be saying, what he’s doing. And it has been just amazing. It really has. It’s… we’ve done we’ve had 500 leaders and we’re still looking for the first dud group. Rich Birch — Well it could be this week. Who knows? Greg Surratt — You know the the group the group that it doesn’t connect. Yeah, the group it could be you, right? But the group that does it? Rich Birch — Ah yes, what an advertisement. Come! Be the dud. Greg Surratt — Yeah, it’s fun. Let me tell you it’s fun. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Greg Surratt — I mean we’ve done all guys. We’ve done church staffs. We’ve done guys who are friends that come. And they’re all fun, but the most fun is when you get a group of guys who don’t know each other. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Surratt — And oftentimes don’t have that friend and ministry that we were talking about earlier and… Rich Birch — Um, yeah, if if people want more information on that, is that the kind of thing like they have to know you? Greg Surratt — No. Rich Birch — Like a secret handshake to find out, how do they? Greg Surratt — No. Rich Birch — How do they find out about it? Greg Surratt — Go online at retreatatchurchcreek.org… Rich Birch — Okay, retreat. Greg Surratt — …retreatatchurchcreek.org – get all the information you need, send us an email, sign up, come… Rich Birch — Love it. Greg Surratt — …and we’d we’d love to have you. Rich Birch — Love it. Well this has been a fantastic conversation, Greg. I will put that we’ll link that in show notes, friends. So if you’re wondering, you can just scroll down, click on that – we’ll make sure you you get there. But, Greg, is there anything else you want to share just as we’re wrapping up our time together? I really am just so honored that you take some time to be with us today. Greg Surratt — You know, just what a if you’re a leader what a privilege it is. It’s been a tough 2 years. But you know what? Um those types of experiences establish leadership I think of Joshua – Old Testament who was you know the assistant to Moses. Moses dies. First thing Joshua has got to do is get people across a river at you know the flood season. I’m sure there were complaining, you know. You know, ah this is the wrong time. If Moses was here he would have thought all this through. All that kind of thing, and God takes Joshua aside and he said, watch this. I’m going to establish you in this crisis, and they’re going to know that I’m with you just like I’m with Moses. And I just want really want to say to leaders right now, God is establishing you in this crisis. He never wastes a crisis. You hang in there. God has God’s got this. He really does. And I believe, and boy that’d be another longer conversation. But I believe just like when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, and it was a crazy time. And people wondered where is America going, and where is the church. Um the largest revival of our generation broke out in the Jesus people movement and I think that we’re on the edge of that kind of breakthrough. And what a privilege it is to be a leader during these times. Rich Birch — Greg, what a great encouraging word. I appreciate you. Thank you so much – appreciate you being on the show today. Thank you. Greg Surratt — Thanks.

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenni Catron, the founder and CEO of the 4Sight Group which helps both leaders and their teams be healthy and thriving. With the disruptions that covid has brought, many church leaders are struggling with a sense of overload and fatigue. Shifts in how we work have created fractures in teams which have resulted in strains on relationships, communication, and trust. Listen in as Jenni talks about how to address these issues in ministry. Relational connectivity. // Recent statistics show that 25% or more of employees are considering leaving their jobs. Many people are feeling disconnected from the significance of the work they’re doing because they aren’t in proximity to their leader, team, or the people they serve in the way they used to be. Interactions with teammates have become largely transactional as we do more virtually, and we’ve lost natural human interaction that happens when we’re face-to-face.Focus on the why. // Organizational clarity has been difficult in this season because we don’t know what the next few months or years will look like. But rather than focusing on the what, we need to focus on the why. If leaders can go back to their why, they will re-inspire their teams. In this great reorganization people want to be a part of something that has meaning and purpose. We don’t have to give our teams a detailed roadmap to the how. Once they understand the why and reconnect to that, they will work together to discover the how.  Organizational structure should serve our strategy. // Org charts can feel bureaucratic, however they provide clarity for every staff person at your church to understand how they contribute to this mission. One of the most critical things we can do as leaders is provide clarity for our team and help people see their place in the organization.Work on your Org Chart in layers. // As you work on your ministry’s org chart, you’ll need to go back and forth between what and who. Look at what your organization needs to achieve its mission, and then what core functions are necessary to achieve it, whether they are operations, creative weekend experience, etc. Start at the top and figure out how many direct reports a leader can have. Define the roles and then look at who in the organization best fills those roles. Continue this process layer by layer.Changing values. // Values serve us for a season and while sometimes that season can last for decades, other times that season may come to an end a lot sooner than we expected. In cases like this, take a look first at what doesn’t need to change and what still represents who your organization is. From there, find the values that no longer embody who you are and identify why those should change.Four steps to writing values. // Jenni has given us access to the resource The Four Steps to Writing Values that are More Than Statements on a Wall. This document walks readers through how to evaluate your values. You’ll identify what is the belief, why it’s significant, what are the behaviors, and the language to then talk about them.Culture Blind Spot Assessment. // If you want to troubleshoot the culture at your church, visit the 4Sight Group and take the Culture Blind Spot Assessment. 4Sight will then talk on the phone with you about the trouble spots that are identified and how they can help you. Visit www.get4sight.com to take the assessment and learn more about all that 4Sight Group can do for you. Click here to download The Four Steps to Writing Values that are More Than Statements on a Wall. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Leadership Pathway If you are trying to find, develop and keep young leaders on your team look no further than Leadership Pathway. They have worked with hundreds of churches, and have interviewed thousands of candidates over the past several years. They are offering a new ebook about five of the core competencies that are at the heart of the leadership development process with every church that they partner with…just go to leadershippathway.org/unseminary to pick up this free resource. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, Rich here from the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know every week we bring you a leader that we hope will really inspire and equip you and today I know that is no exception. I’ve got my friend Jenni Catron—she’s the founder and CEO of an organization called The 4Sight Group—they provide coaching and consulting churches and consulting services to churches and other organizations. She’s a writer, speaker, leadership coach. She’s really an expert in this whole area of culture particularly. She’s worked at ah, a number of great churches and including Menlo ah, Menlo Church and Menlo Park and Cross Point Nashville. She is incredible. Jenni, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Jenni Catron— Rich, this is fun. Thanks for having me. Rich Birch — Now Jenni, if you’re a longtime listener, was our actually our second guest on the podcast and we are… Jenni Catron — Is that right? Rich Birch — That is true. It was Carey Nieuwhof was number one, and then Jenni Catron was number two. And we are approaching 600 episodes. And so I was thinking about that and I thought who do we need to help? Now you’ve come back I think… yeah fact, that might be the last time. I don’t I don’t know if you’ve done three – I should’ve looked before today. Jenni Catron — I was going to say, I can’t remember but that’s crazy. It was episode number two. That’s super fun and… Rich Birch — Episode 2 Jenni Catron — That’s awesome. Rich Birch —A long time ago. Jenni Catron — Yeah. Rich Birch — It was a part of the pre- before we even launched recorded. You know you got to record a few before and so yeah, you were number 2. So the fact that you’ll still come on all these years later is… Jenni Catron — Oh my gosh. Rich Birch — …is to your credit. Jenni Catron — No I’m thrilled – this is fun to be back. This is great. Rich Birch — So glad that yeah, that’s will be fun. Why don’t we kind of talk through tell us about 4Sight. Kind of fill out the picture there – I gave a very kind of quick overview. Give us a sense of of 4Sight. Who do you help? What do you do? That sort of thing. Jenni Catron — Yeah that’s awesome. Thank you. Yeah 4Sight was really birthed out of my passion for leaders to be healthy and thriving and for their teams to be healthy and thriving. And you know I had the privilege of serving in full time ministry, like you said, for about 12 years on church staff in the role of executive director, and executive pastor, and and then prior to that had been in the corporate world for about a decade. And what I just recognized over and over is that the the significance of the health of a leader and then the power of a great culture team dynamics that just enable us to achieve a mission. And that when those 2 things are happening – when a leader’s healthy and thriving and the team is healthy and thriving – you just I feel like you can conquer the world, right? Like whatever that mission is you are able to just achieve that with so much more meaningful success if you will. And so 4Sight was birthed out of that of like how can I help more leaders and teams just you know do what they they feel called to do and in a way that is life giving to them. So so that’s what we do. We do leadership coaching, so we have a team of coaches that do 1 on 1 leadership coaching, and then we also have our culture framework which is just a a framework that helps walk through, hey if you know whether your culture’s kind of mediocre or your culture’s really toxic right now, or it just needs a tuneup you know – because there’s no perfect culture – um, we come alongside, do workshops and ongoing consulting to help just give you those building blocks to build a healthy and thriving team. Rich Birch — Love it. Well you know I know in like I said this earlier but I’m going to underline it whenever I think of culture issues at the top of the list is you, and and so friends you should be following Jenni and the 4Sight Group and reaching out to them for sure. They’re just fantastic people. But but part of what I’m doing here is taking advantage of our friendship. You talked to a lot of different leaders. You are connected in a lot of places, having a lot of different conversations, and so I wanted to kind of tap that kind of meta idea of like, hey what are you hearing? What are some of the things that either churches are coming to you, or you’re kind of as you’re engaged in conversation, you’re like oh I’m seeing a trend here. What are be a some of those maybe these are you know problems that our churches are running into leaders are coming into, maybe a pain that you you consistently see coming up – what what are you hearing these days? Jenni Catron — Yeah, there you know there’s a couple different themes that are standing out to me. One of which is just there’s just such a sense of overload and fatigue – like that feels really prevalent. I think it’s you know the compounding effect of two years of just just disruption and constantly having to figure out, okay now how do we do it? Okay now how do we do it? Okay, how do we plan, you know? Rich Birch — That’s so true. Yes. Jenni Catron — You and I talked offline just before we started recording of just you know the practical reality of how challenging it is to even plan as far out as we might have historically. So there’s just like this it’s if I think it’s just catching up with us. Um, I think that’s compounded by the level of disconnection. Especially when we talk about teams and cultures when we’ve most… most organizations still have some level of hybrid work, you know. There there are some that have returned completely to the office but by and large there’s still a lot of like kind of you know hybrid work scenarios or still working from home. But what that’s done is it’s created just fractures in connection for teams. And so the relationships are strained. The trust is strained. Communication is strained. And so you’re just feeling like and I think that’s also like contributing to the fatigue factor. Rich Birch — Sure. Jenni Catron — So those are like really two of those big things that I’m seeing is just this kind of sense of overload because we’re just a bit exhausted. Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — And then we’re also not connected the way that we historically would have been. and while that’s getting better in some places, that impact on the on the team dynamic, I think is is really starting to show. Is you know we’re starting to really see that more. Rich Birch — Um, yeah, well and I think yeah that makes total sense. You know I wonder if a part of this has been pre- all of this – I don’t even know what we call this season anymore. Jenni Catron — What do we call it anymore, right? Rich Birch — Yeah, post-Covid – whatever. I don’t know whatever you call this. Um pre- that so many of us were used to leading where like we saw everyone that we were leading like every day. We were slapping them on the back… Jenni Catron — That’s right. Rich Birch — …there was you know it’s the old water cooler idea, and so there was ah there was both a relational thing that we could do there where we could kind of stay connected and we had high enough you know, kind of emotional EQ that we could figure out where people are at. But then even just communicating what’s important as an organization was all done face-to-face where then now it’s not definitely not all done face-to-face. And so you can see how that has really has really strained people over these years for sure. Jenni Catron — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — What what’s some of the outcomes you you see of that like on teams? Like what is that what impact is that having on um, you know the the kind of people who are working in churches or their you know the teams who are you know who are you know trying to make this thing happen? Jenni Catron — Yeah, you know this is this is more of a Jenni theory than me being able to deliberately connect the dots… Rich Birch — Sure. Jenni Catron — …but you know part of what we you know are hearing is the the great resignation of people reevaluating and changing jobs. And I saw one more recent stat that said 25% of employees are considering leaving. Rich Birch — Oh. Jenni Catron — That was as I’ve seen that number as much as 40 or 60% depending on which what what research you’re looking at. But by and large everybody’s asking the question of why am I doing what I’m doing? and I do think that is a byproduct of people being disconnected from the significance and purpose of the work they’re doing, just because they’re not in proximity to their leader in the same way where they’re or they’re not in proximity to the who that whoever they serve. So if we’re talking to a lot of church leaders, you know, if you can’t… every leader has felt this right? Like our attendance is a fraction of what it was pre-covid and that’s really like just frustrating and we don’t see the same people. We wonder if some people are even around, and and while we want to be mindful of who is here and making sure we’re being thoughtful to connect with them. Again I think that is still just um, just been emotionally tiring for most of our teams. And then with one another because they haven’t had the same level of proximity in in the office. You know as much as we’ve gotten really good at video and Zoom and all of these things. Um unless you’re really purposeful about creating connection which just sometimes feels a little awkward. So what’s happened is so most so much of our work has become just transactional. We’ve lost, like you said, those water-cooler, pat-each-other-on-the-back, high-five you know, just chitchat and in it for a minute in the hallway and between meetings. And some of those like really human interaction things that happened naturally for teams were completely extracted when we had to go to all virtual. Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — And unless we found some mechanisms to replace a little bit of it, and I think there’s some things you can do in a digital environment to replace some of that. But I think all of I I think it’s been hard for team members to name that that’s why I’m not energized about my work. Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — You know again, for years we’ve been saying people don’t quit jobs they quit bosses… Rich Birch — Yeah. Jenni Catron — …or you know like we stay someplace because of the culture and our leader… Rich Birch — Yes, yeah. Jenni Catron — …and we’ve known that for forever. Well I think a good reason why people are are asking the question of you know, should I stay here? Do I want to move on to something different? Is because they’ve lost that relational connectivity that brought so much life to their work. And while we might be starting to bring some of that back, um, its you know now it’s we’re having to rebuild that those muscles and know how to do that again. So ah I think there’s there’s a lot in there so I should probably like pause and let you tease out what’s most helpful. Rich Birch — No, no, no, that’s good. I love that because I think I know for me that’s kind of as it’s gone through these different phases it’s like, well if we let’s play like a better game on Zoom. Or like I’ll send pizza to everyone’s house. Jenni Catron — Right. Rich Birch — Or like we tried to we started with like these um, like how do we how do we kind of approximate or synthesize what it was like to be in person? But the thing I like that you’re pushing on is actually I think a much deeper issue which is it really gets it’s like the organizational clarity question, which is like why are people here? When I think of the people who are who are thriving in this season in the organization I lead, or you know churches that I run into, it’s people who have clarity on what is the big thing. Jenni Catron — Yes, yep. Yeah. Rich Birch — What is the thing that kind of transcends the you know all the kind of frills or whatever? So what what are some things you’re seeing on that front around either… because it does seem like if people are wondering, why am I here? I do feel like every organization is is asking that question now again, right? It’s like okay what is it what is the next five years supposed to be like now? Jenni Catron — Yeah. Rich Birch — Everything’s changed – the world’s different. Um, you know what are we building? You know we stop talking about rebuilding, but what are we building? So um… Jenni Catron — Yes, yeah. Rich Birch — What does that look like when you think about organizational clarity in this season? Jenni Catron — Yeah, and I think ah, you’re you’re you’re hitting it ah dead on in that it’s actually really hard, right? So for the senior leaders in the room, you know that are at you know in that most senior leadership seat, it’s been really challenging to clarify where are we going. And and I think because of that frustration of I don’t know how to predict next month let alone 5 years from now. Um that then in some ways, and I and I’m named myself because I said that the the head of the organization that I lead and it’s in some ways we we we’ve been in such a reactive posture, and and we had to be initially, right? It was like whoa what is coming at us? How am I going to deal with this? And it was just kind of react… Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — …and you know play a little whack-a-mole and try to just you know keep the wheels from falling off. And ah I think the challenge for us as leaders right now is to push ourselves back to a proactive posture, um get out of reactive mode, and go more okay wait, how am I going to engage now moving forward? But there’s a lot of work we have to do to get ourselves there because it’s really discouraging. Rich Birch — It’s so true. Yes Jenni Catron — It’s really frustrating to go, I don’t know what the next few months are going to look like. I don’t know how to predict that. All of my typical mechanisms for that aren’t working anymore. And and I’m grieving loss, right? I mean so a lot of the pastors that I’m working with are still you know, as much as we know it shouldn’t be about numbers and you know like we don’t need to fixate on the metrics, there’s the we are grieving that we used to reach a thousand people and now it’s five hundred a week. And we have this number of people who are connected online, but we don’t quite know how to like… Rich Birch — Don’t know what that means. Yes. Jenni Catron — …do what to do with that. Yeah, we don’t know exactly what that means. And um and you know so we’re still grieving just that loss and I think we have to really keep wrestling with that. So long way around to your to your question is I think we have to really go back to why. I think we got so focused on what – like what do I need to be doing, which is the strategy piece, but that real sense of purpose like why? Why do I do this? I remember, and I may have told you this, Rich, but I remember sitting at this very desk in April of 2020 going, Oh my goodness – what am I going to do? I’ve spent the last four years of this organization traveling ah all around… Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — …to different churches and organizations, speaking, consulting, being on site with leaders, and what am I gonna do? and I was I was I was sitting here praying and I felt like God was like well why do you do? Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — To equip leaders to lead thriving teams. They and I just felt like I was like and they still need that. Rich Birch — Yes, maybe more now than ever. Jenni Catron — So now it was how, right? Yes exactly exactly. So it was like and I that was so grounding for me, Rich, because it was like wait. Why? Why do I do what I do? So for church leaders? Why? Why do we do what we do? Why do we do what we do? People need the hope of Jesus, right? Like arguably more than like in many of our lifetimes, like the the disruption, the frustration, the anger level, the uncertainty, the fear – like all of these things that have been plaguing our culture, our broader culture for these past couple of years – people desperately need hope. We know that anxiety is skyrocketing. We know that suicide rates are skyrocketing. You know, so again, particularly ministry leaders that why is arguably more critical than ever. So like if we can get ourselves re-inspired in that why… Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — …of like wait, no this is why we do what we do. This is why this matters so significantly. Okay, now how? All right guys, I’m not sure how. And I literally I would do this as a leader if I were in the shoes of a lot of our listeners. It’s what I’ve done with my team. It’s like okay guys here’s why we do what we do. Now I am as confused as you are about how, so we’re going to have to figure out how together. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Jenni Catron — I’m not exactly sure how this is going to play out in the next one year, or three years, five years, but here’s what I know – this is why we do what we do and here’s a couple stories of seeing it in action. You know because the stories exist. Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — You know I’m I’m hearing so many stories especially in ministry um, about people who are showing up for the first time because they’re hungry for hope. Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — They’re hungry for somebody to bring some answer that will give them a sense of peace. We can provide that especially as ministry leaders, and then you know make the correlation to whatever you do if you’re in a nonprofit, or a business… Rich Birch — Yes, right. Jenni Catron — …like there’s a compelling why that you’re giving your life and energy to. And so I think if we can come back to that and our team can see our belief in it, they’ll come along for figuring out the how. Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — I don’t think they’re desperate for us to be able to map out the exact plan. In fact, what we know about younger leaders is they want to be more collaborative. Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — They don’t want to just be dictated to… Rich Birch — Just told, here. Jenni Catron —They actually want to be more collaborative in in in doing the work together. So they just need to know that we’re anchored in a sense of purpose, and the data is telling us that too. There’s ah, a lot of research right now about, you know, in this great reorganization um what do people really want?They want to be a part of something that has meaning and purpose. You know and they want to give their lives to something that has significance. Rich Birch — Yeah Jenni Catron — So to me that’s a huge opportunity. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. I love that. You know one of the things that kind of related to that as you know, there’s been a lot of churches out there that like say eighteen months ago there was a youth pastor who mildly knew something about technology and so then we said great, you now are the church online pastor. And that person’s been doing that for eighteen months. Um and now the church is you know that we’re doing that, we keep doing that, it’s fine. Um, but now we’re asking the reorganization question. Jenni Catron — Right. Rich Birch — We’re asking the like okay, how do we this is the kind of new normal. We have a sense of what we’ve done, what what our why is. We have a sense of where we’re going. If I’m a church leader today thinking about you know I just have this sense that we’re that I’ve got maybe all the right people on the bus, but they’re not necessarily sitting in the right seat. Um the real answer is call 4Sight. They’ll help you unplug it and figure it out. But but how would you go how would you walk through that process? How would you help them kind of begin to translate, okay, this is kind of our new reality. We take we have a clear idea of where we’re going, why we’re doing what we’re doing, and we have an idea of our kind of current context at least for the foreseeable future. Jenni Catron — That’s right. Rich Birch — Um, how do we look at moving people around? What’s that look like? Jenni Catron — Oh that’s such a good question, and honestly this that has been a big hot button. Um I think there’s just a lot of people asking that question because we’re realizing there were some roles that we historically have that ah are not as critical. Um, and then there’s some roles that have become more elevated in our strategy. And and and like actually looking at that very deliberately, building out that organizational structure that really reflects it is so so so key. And here’s why. I just want to give a why on this because a lot of people especially a ministry if we hear “org chart” we’re like, argh! Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, ahhh! Jenni Catron — Org chart feels bureaucratic feels you know… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Jenni Catron — …but here’s what a great Org Chart does is it provides clarity for every person to understand how they contribute to this mission. Like every person understands here’s how my role helps us achieve this mission. And ah clarity is one of the the biggest things we need to provide as leaders. It’s one of the most critical things we can do is provide the clarity for our teams. And so clarity of that purpose, which I just went on my long rant about, but then secondly like helping every person see their place in that. Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — So that’s what an org chart does. So to your question, it is the okay, yup, what… One of my my big convictions is that our structure our organizational structure needs to serve our strategy. That’s the purpose first. So um and when I’m working on org chart stuff with teams I often talk about toggling the what and the who. Um and that there’s you’re… Rich Birch — That’s good. I like that. Jenni Catron — …you’re going back and forth between what and who as you’re looking at it because you need to go, okay, what does the organization need to achieve our mission? Okay. So we got a structure for strategy. So if I know that we’re going to need—these are the core functions that are going to that everything needs to flow from. You know? So if online… like there’s a church that I’m working with right now that online has been so significant for them that they realized we need to elevate that to more of a higher position organizationally. So so knowing you know, next to, and we’ll just do churches because I know a lot of the listeners are church leaders but you can make the application for whatever type of organization you’re in, you’re seeing your pastors in that most senior leadership seat. So then your next tier of the organization is really based on, what are the core functions necessary for us to achieve our mission? So it’s probably you know all your ministries, it’s your operations, and it’s your um creative weekend experience, whatever bucket that might be in, and that might vary for you. But you’re just getting clear about what are those core areas that are essential for us to achieve our mission. Um, Jenni Catron — Then there’s a question mark of okay, what’s the appropriate span of care? You know how many direct reports does that leader can… Rich Birch — Right. Need. Yeah, can take. Jenni Catron — …can yeah need and can actively lead. You know can can really provide great leadership for. So ah, so maybe that’s 1, or 2, or 3, or whatever it might be – that’s going to clarify how many how many folks sit there. And then you go okay, now who? Now who can best fit these roles we’ve defined? And then you just keep doing that layer after layer of the org chart depending on how big your organization is. But it’s the what do we need? And then okay, who do we have? And we just keep toggling back and forth between those two things to help us build a structure that really serves our strategy, but also finds a clear place and position for the team members we have. Rich Birch — I love that. That’s great coaching. Yeah I know I’m more of a systems leader and would lean much heavier on the like we’ve got to get the pristine org chart that’s like the ideal, if we had the most ideal people ever. Jenni Catron — Right, right. Rich Birch — Um, you know, this is how it would go. But I like that challenge of like oh we should be toggling between who do we who is actually here… Jenni Catron — Yes. Rich Birch — …and you know and and then who are you know and then how does that fit with where you know we need to be looking at both sides of that equation. Jenni Catron — Both sides. Rich Birch — That’s good I like that that’s good. Jenni Catron — Yeah, well and what you and what you have a lot in—because you probably lean a little more of how I would as well that I—you know like what’s the ideal structure you know and then… Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, let’s sort that out. Jenni Catron — …but in ministry a lot of times we get so fixated on the who because we’re often more relationally wired. And um and then we just create these really odd roles because of what some people’s personal passions and interests are, but it’s not really actually helping us do the thing we’re called to do. Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — And so as leaders we have this dual responsibility right to both steward the mission of the organization, and the people that are assembled here in their gifts and so forth. And so it’s really that back to tensions that we manage. You know we talk about that a lot. It’s like it’s really the both/and. And I push leaders to say start with what, Rich Birch — Yes, yeah. Jenni Catron — …because most leaders they will get hung up on the who. Rich Birch — We’ll go to… yeah yeah, that makes sense. Jenni Catron — Yeah. And so start with the what. Like if I were clean slate building a new org structure to help us achieve the mission in this season of of the organization’s life, what should that look like? Because a lot of times then what you find is you find some really unique ideas of like, oh wow I think this person, with a little bit of coaching and development could really do this thing. And I’d never thought about that. Or I’d never seen that potential in them. Right? Or this individual over here is a perfect fit. Or you know you just start to see different um, you get different ideas and different perspective that um can be really fun to uncover. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. That’s so good. So another another kind of question around you know this whole kind of organizational-development-in-the-moment-we-find-ourselves is, I do sense that I end up engaged with with leaders that they’re either the senior leader or they’re a part of the senior leadership team, and something has shifted within them in the last couple of years, and they’ve changed. And they sense that the organization needs to change, kind of like at the values level like where it’s like you know we used to be X but I really think going forward, you know, the Lord’s calling us to or… Jenni Catron — Yep. Rich Birch — Um, or I think that we need to change strategically. It’s like this value this is like… or or the cultures changed around us and we need to respond to that. Jenni Catron — Right. Rich Birch — So it’s kind of like an aspirational values change. Is that a good idea? Bad idea? How does someone do that? Is that you know should values always be just defined on who we are today? How do how do you balance that out? What does that look like in the current season? Jenni Catron — Oh I love that question. So it’s a really great question because I think you’re you’re hitting on probably some of the the tensions we feel as leaders of like the landscape is shifting. Now what do I do with that? Um, and so yes, and I think that um you know, values are one of those things that they serve us for a season. Now sometimes that season can be really extended. It can be really long. There can be organizations ah you know that have a set of values that really guide, you know how they work together and how they achieve mission together, and that works well for two decades. And then sometimes there will be something that that ah can almost creates a little bit of ah, almost a rebirth, or a just a pivot to a new season. And so sometimes that’s a new senior leader. Sometimes that’s a you know something like we’ve just experienced where it’s really shifted our our focus and our strategy. Jenni Catron — And it’s time to take a re-look. So I think it’s completely, if you’re sensing that, I think that’s completely appropriate. And what I would do is I would say okay, what what doesn’t need to change? You know, maybe we have a set of 7 values, which is probably a little too many but most organizations have that much. Rich Birch — Ah, yes, yes. Jenni Catron — Um, so let’s say you have a set of 7… Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — …I would recommend more like 3 to 5, but um, but you look at it and you go okay, these two or three things, no, that’s still us. Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — Like this conviction to serve others, or um to you know you fill it full that in with whatever it might be … Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Jenni Catron — Those are still really core convictions. We still really believe these are critical. But you know what, here these other three those were important to us for a season, but they’re probably not the most critical things for now. Rich Birch — Yep. Jenni Catron — I’ll give you an example of this. One of the organizations that I was a part of we had to defined a set of values. They served us really well, well for about 10 years or so. New senior leader came in and you know had it, you know, just his own set of convictions and things that were important for the new era of leadership. And they they did; they pulled them out and they looked at them, and 6 of the 7 they kept, and he swapped out one. And there was one that was just really important to his leadership and what he believed was essential for the season… Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — …so he didn’t throw the whole thing out but they did a really helpful reflection on why did these things need to guide us? And that’s what’s important about values is they really become kind of those guardrails that help every team member understand, how do I work here? And how do I work with each other, with one another to to succeed, you know to be a healthy contributing part of this team? So I think I think the the taking a look at it, discerning which what needs to stay what needs to go, and then and then really digging into okay, why is this critical right now in this season, and then what does it look like? Right? So what’s why does this what’s the belief? Why does this value matter? And then behaviorally what does it look like in action? Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — Because if you can give that kind of clarity to it then, because back to your point about it’s kind of aspiration, right? We probably are not fully living into that. Rich Birch — Yes. Jenni Catron — But if I can give enough definition to it I can help my team understand, here’s what we’re aspiring to, and we’re gonna keep working to lean into and live into those values in a way that they do become true of us sooner than later. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good because there can be a problem with those aspirational values where your team can get cynical about them, right? Jenni Catron — Totally. Rich Birch — Where it’s like oh yeah, we’re supposed to be whatever XYZ but like I never see that. And so you have to call I’ve found you have to call that out… Jenni Catron — That’s ah exactly right. Rich Birch — Like yeah this is we’re trying to lead into that direction. This is kind of like where we see um, and it may be a good season, or maybe I’ll ask it this way, is this a good season to reevaluate that? Is this a good season for us to be rethinking, I’m assuming values and um, even maybe some vision/mission stuff too? Jenni Catron — Yes, I think so. Especially if you have question marks about it. If you’re like like you know this is clear. This is you know I I feel confident and comfortable and boom, we’re going, I would say invite a few voices around the table. I think part of the the blind spot we can have as leaders is that culture always feels clearest to us because we have the most control, right? Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Jenni Catron — And so we have to be conscientious of the fact that while it might feel clear to us it it probably is a little more murky to the rest of the team. So that could be mission or vision. It could be values. So I think I would pull some team members to go, if you have your own question marks, that’s a great place to open the conversation with some other team members to say hey, here’s what I’m wondering I’m wondering if we need to relook at this. And I am seeing a lot of organizations doing this right now of just like hey, this is a healthy time to kind of reset that baseline Um, we we use a tool in our culture framework called the culture hierarchy of needs. And it’s you know it’s similar to Maslow’s hierarchy of like those basic needs that we need to flourish as humans. But it’s it’s okay, what does that look like in an organizational context? Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — And one of the one of the core foundational blocks there is like just clarity – organizational clarity. What is our mission? Rich Birch — Right. Jenni Catron — What’s our vision? What are the values that guide how we behave? And so a a look at that to make sure that that that foundation is clear and strong, and everybody understands that then helps us build you know, build the the trust, and the connection, and so forth that allow people to really flourish at work. Rich Birch — Love it. You’ve actually given us access to a resource called the 4 steps to writing values that are more than statements on a wall. That title is a little bit – it hits a little close to home there, Jenni. Because I think we’ve all worked in those organizations where it’s like we’ve got those values, do they actually impact us? Jenni Catron — Yep. Rich Birch — Ah, talk to us about this tool. Give us a sense of what you know what is this? Ah you know how how could a church leader who’s listening in how could it benefit them as they’re leading? Jenni Catron — Yeah, and it does. It just helps you kind of look at the, okay, what are our values? Rich Birch — Yep. Jenni Catron — And if if they don’t exist. You know you’re going to get some you know, just some suggestions on how to even build them. But what are those values? And then—I kind of hinted at it a little earlier—what’s the belief? Why does that matter? Why is this significant for us? What are the behaviors? What does that look like? And then we talk about the sticky statements or the language that we use to talk about them. Because let’s be honest, we can have a value of collaborative communication and it’s like, that doesn’t get anybody super excited, right? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Jenni Catron — But if we put a fun like statement or axiom around that that is kind of a little bit of like insider language, it’s kind of we all understand what it means, it gives them a little more life. Um and makes it a little more specific to your context so that that um that free download just kind of walks you through that process, and and helps you put a little more specificity and just a little more teeth into these values, so that they don’t become the thing everybody just kind of chuckles about, because they’re like yeah we say that we do blah blah blah. Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah. Jenni Catron —But really, we don’t. Um so it’ll get you kind of started in that direction. Rich Birch — Love it. This is so good. I want to get a sense for our listeners how they could engage with 4Sight Group. So I’m a just pretend I’m an executive pastor of a church – I don’t know 1500 people, we’ve got 25 staff – and I sense that you know there’s man, there’s just some stuff on our culture that I think we need to address. How does 4Sight help with that? How how does your group help engage that issue? Jenni Catron — Yeah, that’s fantastic, and thanks for thanks for that question. First of all, just at the top of our website is ah we call it a culture blind spot assessment. And it will it’s a quick little free assessment that you can take that just helps you identify, okay, what might be the trouble spot for us? And it assesses on 4 different areas of culture. And that usually kind of gets you pointed in the right direction. And then secondly from there it’s like hey let’s just get on the phone. Let’s talk about it because culture has its uniquenesses and nuances. So you know every organization might have a little bit something different that you need specific support for. And then beyond that oftentimes it’s either we do we get you in a one-on-one coaching relationship where then we’re just working with you directly as the leader on whatever we’ve identified as the trouble spot. Or we come and do a 2-day workshop with you, and we deep dive with you and a team of your staff to define, hey what’s the reality of our culture currently, what do we aspire to, and let’s build a plan to help you get there. And so that’s the the culture workshop program… Rich Birch — Love it. Jenni Catron — …that is a great place for folks to get connected. But that assessment will get you started. A conversation will help us figure out what’s the best way that we can help you just create that culture where you’re you’re thriving and your team is thriving. Rich Birch — Yeah. Friends, you know Jenni’s not just a friend. She’s we’ve also had her in our organization. She’s helped us with some stuff and I can say you know, this can feel like one of those areas where it can feel maybe a little bit tender for you as a leader you’re like oh… Jenni Catron — Yeah. Rich Birch — …like to have somebody come in for a couple days and talk about an area that I feel a little bit ah, maybe not great about. Ah Jenni and her whole team are so good at getting in the corner of you and your team. Really this is not a like hey we’re gonna make you feel dumb… Jenni Catron — No. Rich Birch — …or like point out all your problems. It’s like let’s build to the future. Let’s figure out where we go from here. And I have found that the the free assessment is—everybody who’s listening should go take it—it is a great kind of starting point. It gives you some some great early ideas. So I would encourage you, friends, to go to get4sight—that’s with with a 4 not the FOR (I can’t even and spell). It’s with the number four – get4sight.com … Jenni Catron — That’s right. Rich Birch — …that would really be the the best place. Anything else you’d love to share ah, just while you’re you’re well we’ve got you today? Jenni Catron — Well I would first of all, Rich, thank you so much for the opportunity to connect. I’m always super grateful and grateful for the work that you’re doing, and the way your equipment leaders are such practical resources and tools. That’s just such a gift. But to everybody that’s listening, thank you for your faithfulness in leading. I mean this has not been an easy season for any leader at any level. And so thank you for just your faithfulness in that. And um and I hope that you know you’ve been encouraged in some way, but if there’s any way we can, you know, be a resource or a support or a help um, we are always eager to be a part. So just thanks for your faithfulness and leadership. That’s what I’m super grateful for. Rich Birch — Nice. Again is there anywhere besides get4sight.com we want to send people online? I do want people to listen to your podcast. People sometimes ask me as a podcaster what podcast do I listen to, and your podcast is one of my must-listens-to… Jenni Catron — Thank you. Rich Birch — …so um, you need to listen to that as well. Where where finer podcasts are aggregated. You can pick that up. Are there is there anywhere else we want to send people online? Jenni Catron — Ah, no I think get4sight.com. It’s the word, g-e-t, the number 4, and the word sight s-i-g-h-t. And that’s a great place. I’m @jenncatron on all social media. So I love to connect with folks there. That’s ah, just a great way to stay connected with me personally. But yeah, we’d love to we’d love to connect and yes, the the podcast is Lead Culture with Jenni Catron and so clearly talking all things leadership and culture. Rich Birch — Yes, good stuff. Thanks so much, Jenni. Appreciate you being here. And maybe we’ll have you on in another 600 episodes, you know. Jenni Catron — I love it! Let’s do it! Rich Birch — Yeah, thanks so much. Jenni Catron — Perfect. Thanks, Rich.

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Shawn and Sonny Hennessy, from Life Church Green Bay in Wisconsin. Shawn and Sonny are also co-hosts of The Rise After the Fall podcast and together founded The Exchange Collaborative. The highs and lows of ministry, and the trials of life can threaten to destroy pastors and church leaders if they don’t address their own brokenness. Everyone experiences trauma and has weaknesses that can lead to a fall. But that’s not the end of the story. Listen in as Shawn and Sonny talk about how to find healing and move toward restoration after a fall. So many hide before they fall. // There are so many pastors in the midst of a fall or in danger of a fall who hide, either in pride or fear, and don’t reach out to someone for help. They may feel that they don’t have someone they can go to, or they may fear losing their position and livelihood, especially if they are the senior leader.Step away when needed. // God has used Shawn and Sonny’s own brokenness and restoration process to found The Exchange Collaborative where they come alongside other pastors and church leaders who are struggling. In addition to offering resources such as The Rise After the Fall podcast, Shawn and Sonny have put together a program for pastoral restoration. As part of this program, one of the things they offer to pastors who are at a point where they really want help is a financial incentive to walk away from their ministry for a year.Fake it until we make it or fall. // Some of the biggest pastoral falls come from the things people are ashamed and embarrassed about, like financial or sexual impropriety. A lot of times our insecurity causes us to hide our own doubts about ourselves, and we try to fake it until we make it. So as church leaders we actually fail the most by not admitting our weaknesses in the first place, and then not setting up safeguards to prevent our falls.Walk in repentance. // The first step toward healing and restoration is admitting that we are broken. The pastoral restoration program is not for the person who just wants to save face and preserve themselves. Rather it’s for those who want to walk in repentance. It helps leaders who are broken dig down to the root cause of why they took a wrong step in the first place.Paths for help. // Everybody’s needs are different so there are a couple of different paths in the pastoral restoration program. One option is for people to come to Green Bay for 30 days to a year and live there, going through an intense restoration process. The Exchange Collaborative offers housing, a job, a church they can attend, and the Journey to Wholeness course to work through. It is an honest and open process that will help leaders, and their families, defragment and reconnect.Other options for restoration. // There are other options for those who can’t come to Green Bay for a year for the restoration process. Shawn and Sonny can fly to pastors and work with them and their families while they are still serving in their ministry role. There is also an option for 2-3 day intensives at various locations. One is at the Living Waters Retreat in Arizona on June 23-25, 2022. Additionally, you can contact Shawn or Sonny directly through their website if you need to talk with them about help you may need.Create a culture of vulnerability. // As a church leader, you can create a culture where people on your staff will feel safe opening up about their struggles before their life goes off the rails. Have conversations about your struggles and how you are addressing them. You don’t need to bare your whole soul, but can start by speaking generally to lay down a foundation for your team. Talk time to pray for one another. The Journey to Wholeness course offered at The Exchange Collaborative website is also available for your staff to walk through together. You can learn more about The Rise After the Fall podcast, the pastoral restoration program, and other resources at www.theexchangecollaborative.com. Find out more about Life Church Green Bay at www.lifechurchgreenbay.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know every week here on the podcast we try to bring you a church leader who will both inspire and equip you, but today we’ve got two! Two for the price of one, friends. Super excited to have a return guest. Well you know when we have return guests, that means I love what they have to say and want to expose them to you. We’re 600 episode in we have only done a handful of return guests. So super excited for that. You need to lean in today. We’ve got Shawn and Sonny Hennessy from a fantastic church – Life Church in Wisconsin. Shawn is the senior pastor. He’s international guest speaker, author, blogger. He’s a chaplain to the Green Bay Packers—are you a shareholder though? That’s the real question—and the co-founder of The Exchange. And then we’ve got Sonny – she’s a lead pastor at Life Church Green Bay and CEO of The Exchange Brand. Together they co-host a podcast called The Rise After the Fall, speaking really to church leaders ah, who have taken a step too far, who have fallen and really about this whole area of pastoral restoration. Sonny, Shawn, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Sonny Hennessy — Thank you. Shawn Hennessy — Thank you, and yes I am a shareholder actually. Rich Birch — This is… oh you are? Okay I wondered. Shawn Hennessy — Yes, yes. Rich Birch — That’s great. Wow. I’m not sure what that means. Like I don’t know does that mean you’re like someday you can, if they sell, you get money? Is that what that means? I don’t know. Shawn Hennessy — There’s no no monetary impact. You can go once a year to the shareholders meeting and you can listen with 75,000 or so of your closest friends to what’s going to happen. Rich Birch — Love it. That’s that’s so good. Sonny, why don’t we start with you kind of filling out the the picture a little bit. Kind of talk to us about Life Church – give us to kind of bring us up to speed on that to kind of tell us a little bit of the of your story. How you know how Life Church is and give us a bit of that picture. Sonny Hennessy — Well, we’ve been at Life Church almost ten years in Green Bay, Wisconsin, of course, and we find it to be the greatest work we’ve ever done when it comes to ministry. And it came after a meteoric rise and a fall. And we almost lost our marriage – ie. we both messed up enough to to almost walk away from our marriage. And it’s after that that we saw God do the most in our life. Ah Life Church, we basically like relaunched it ten years ago with about 80 people, and a little building. And we were three times on the fastest growing churches in America Outreach list. One year as the second fastest growing, so literally it has been a ride. And then the pandemic hit, and we were able to really sit back, lean back and say, what do we want the next ten years to look like? Well we want to be pastors but we also want to help pastors who thought their life was over at the time of the fall, their fall, their step back, and realize it’s not the end. It’s never the end with God. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm, yeah; I love it. So I um I it seems like for about a year I had everyone who I knew in ministry said to me, hey hey have you—and I already knew where it was going—they’re like have you listened to that Mars Hill Podcast? Like have you heard about that conversation? It’s like if I feel like I couldn’t get away from it and um, you know I had friends that were on the team there, and so actually to be honest I haven’t listened to it. Because I’m like I, listen I was knew people in the midst of all that and so I was like I didn’t really want to relive it all. But I think anybody who’s listening in has a clear at least idea around you know, ah, kind of all the situation that happened there, but you’ve, Shawn, taken this kind of position with your podcast called The Rise After the Fall, which is, like you say, not a rebuttal against that but really talking about well what what happens when you know a leader falls. Talk to me about your heart behind that. What what led you to say, yeah this this is the conversation we need to be having? Shawn Hennessy — Well, we came to the game late in the the rise after the The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. I had heard a lot of people talk about it. And ah I was a huge Mark Driscoll fan. I loved his books, loved his messages. I actually I I really felt like I had a kindred spirit to him in so many ways in the way that I viewed leadership and ah… And then I listened to the podcast and I realized I didn’t have a kindred spirit with him. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Hennessy — And there were a lot of things that I heard in that podcast that broke my heart so deeply. And we’re not only connected here in Green Bay, we’re deeply connected in Seattle, and that church for a period of time changed that city… Rich Birch — Absolutely. Shawn Hennessy — And then it changed it again and that was the thing that really prompted me, I think, to do a group of talks about people who are struggling with their position and ministry. And the thing that really resonated with me about that podcast was the number of opportunities that the leadership who are on that podcast, who are trying to pick up the pieces, reached out and extended an olive branch for restoration that was was denied, for whatever reason, and I think that there’s so many pastors who are either in the midst of a fall or in danger of a fall who, whether it be pride or fear, don’t reach out to somebody or respond to somebody. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm Shawn Hennessy — Maybe it’s because they don’t feel like they have someone who they can go to, like if you’re a senior pastor. It’s difficult to go to your denomination because you feel like maybe you’ll lose your livelihood. Pastors aren’t very marketable outside of churches. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Hennessy — Like I mean a we could go sell shoes at Nordstrom, but what else are we have. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Hennessy — You have your degree in bible… Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Shawn Hennessy — …and so there’s not a lot of stuff that you can do. And so that’s a positive but it’s also negative in the fact that if you’re on staff at a church and you feel like you’re about to go through a fall, it’s difficult to go to your senior pastor because you wonder if you’re going to lose, again, your livelihood. And so this this program, it’s not just a podcast for us. It’s a complete restoration program and process where one of the things that we want to offer to people is actually a financial incentive to walk away for a year. Rich Birch — Love it. Well I want to dig into that. Before we get there would you guys be open to opening up and talking about your own kind of restoration journey? I would love to hear a little bit about that. Maybe Shawn, we’ll start with you, and then, Sonny, I’d love to hear kind of—I know that’s like, tell us about that in two minutes or less – like good luck with that. But like yeah to kind of give us a bit of the framework of your own… how you come to this this whole topic of restoration. Shawn Hennessy — Well I came to faith late. I came to faith in my early 20s. I had had a rollercoaster of a life. I came from a rough background and was playing football on a scholarship, and got arrested for robbery, got sentenced to 15 years in the state pen… Rich Birch — Wow. Shawn Hennessy — …served 111 days, I got off because of overcrowding, ended up at a little Christian school in North Dakota. It was an assembly of God Bible school – I didn’t know it until I got there. And one of the things that I discovered in ministry is if you have talent, many times your lack of integrity is overlooked. As long as you can perform, you don’t have to live your life up to a ah certain standard as long as you don’t make the overarching entity look bad. And I lived my life in that. I lived my life with having a lot of natural ability. I’ve never been afraid in front of a crowd. I’ve never not had anything to say. I’ve always had a magnetic personality. I’ve always drawn people even before I was a Jesus follower. And everything that Sonny and I ever did in ministry, it felt like we had the Midas touch. And then in the midst of that we we were never forced to deal, I was never forced to deal with the lack of integrity that I had in my life. And I also was never forced to deal with the excessive amount of pride that I had in my life. And so every time I would be blessed, my ego would be puffed up. And finally after you know, almost fifteen years in the ministry, it was it. And I I got to a place where my talent took me as the old adage would say that my my character couldn’t keep me. And it didn’t only affect me it affected the people in the church we were leading at the time. It affected Sonny, it affected our kids, and it was as we say in our beginning of our podcast, we had a meteoric rise and we had a devastating fall. Rich Birch — Hmm. Sonny, I’d love to hear your kind of how you plug into that story. Sonny Hennessy — Shawn and I both went right into ministry after being called to ministry. And I mean we were passionate and we do everything still very passionately. We go one 180% in and 180 miles per hour, and so we just got fell in love with Jesus and just did ministry. So at home the emotional baggage or how we saw our parents be married and fight and yell, and not hit each other, but fight and yell – we just did that because it was … sides the way we um, saw people that we admired spend money, we spent money, even if it meant tons of credit card debt. And so we’re being bogged down, not by we were out having affairs, you know, no by we would go to church and do it so well and that was our everything, and come home and take everything out on each other, overspend then be overstressed, ah treat each other poorly. Um and it just that never gets better. It just increases and increases and pretty soon we’d be like man today we had a good day, we didn’t fight, and then we well at ten am we did. Well that’s true, but hey most of the day we… like that’s a terrible marriage to live in. And then we took over a church that had ah a pastor who had had financial indiscretions before us, but we didn’t know that. We took on a mess and that really started to cripple us in our ministry now, plus what was happening at home. And you don’t make good decisions when you’re weary. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Sonny Hennessy — And you you tend to find pride in things that you are successful at, and that covers the things that you’re unsuccessful in, and and makes those actually worse in the dark. And so we had gone to people before about our marriage or marriage conferences. The reality was we didn’t have a marriage issue. We had never dealt with past abuses in our childhood, ah past bullying in our childhood. Ah we were we were not emotionally healed because we had never considered true therapy for ourselves. We didn’t have a marriage problem, we had a Shawn and Sonny problem. Then we got in in a house and then we were really bad roommates. And usually you can move out from the roommate you have in college and you just are like I’m done with them. We couldn’t really do that, but we got to a point I moved out. And then we we had to submit… at that point when I moved out and it was clear I was going to file for divorce, which I left the ministry and the pressure as much as I left Shawn, in all honesty. Our marriage wasn’t that much worse, but the ministry was crippling us. And now with a pandemic, we feel that weight. Ah I left both the ministry and Shawn, and when our denomination found that out, it was clear we can’t continue this way. And we rightfully both lost our credentials. Ah and it was a turning point that we didn’t have a reputation to uphold anymore. It was devastated, and we fell all the way. And we talk about that on our podcast is that you have to fall all the way and those who truly get healed and whole are the ones that did fall all the way. So there’s pastors that – there’s a current pastor right now that there’s indiscretions coming out from ten years ago. Or um, you know, we I believe that the Bill Hybels story – it was years ago… Rich Birch — Yeah, two decades. Yeah, it was like 20 years… Sonny Hennessy — …Yeah we’re not talking like just deal with it when it comes out in the news today, we’re talking if you don’t fall all the way, then you do ten more years of ministry after you were sexually inappropriate with someone. That’s not okay. And and so we want to be there. Not just for those who are currently like mud on their face, but those who who need help and it’s not yet exposed. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, love it. Sonny Hennessy — And how can we help you that we don’t expose you, but you truly fall all the way, and then we step in help. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, I love this. So I’ve um, for folks that know me, you know have been whatever two and a half I guess it’s almost three decades. And now to say three decades, that seems like a long time to be a ministry. But it’s been, you know, in that second seat you know that executive pastor seat. That’s where I’ve spent most of my time. And one of the unique kind of power dynamics that I’ve seen—and I’ve worked for incredible lead pastors I love the folks, they all happen to be guys. They’re just great guys—and but one of the things I’ve said to all of them is they don’t have peers. Like they don’t have people like even as close as I would say um I would be when I’m still with with you know these folks like they’re they’re not my peer, like they are be as the leaders of the organization. It’s a fascinating place to be. Um, ah and I feel terrible for folks particularly in that seat – I think they do carry a unique pressure. Shawn, ah help us understand this kind of scale or or common areas where you’re seeing kind of pastoral you know falls. Where we’re seeing like, hey this just isn’t working out um, where people are stepping over the line. What are the kinds of things that um, you know that people are either talking to you about, or you’ve you know you’ve engaged with um you know as you’ve you know, just as you think about this whole area? Shawn Hennessy — Well I think there’s probably two main ones that people would naturally think about. They’d think about obviously some sort of a sexual impropriety, or some sort of a financial impropriety. And I think actually the the biggest part is the things that people are hiding. The things that they’re struggling with that maybe they’re embarrassed about, but the things that that we don’t learn, let’s say, in seminary. Like you don’t learn how to deal with you know, being a person who sits in that first seat, you’re not taught in seminary how to deal with a multimillion dollar budget. And so when you when you start to grow as a church. You’re excited about this growth. But then you’re also insecure about the fact that when you go into a meeting of let’s say board members, you’re you’re not the smartest person in the room when it comes to that. So a lot of times we’re trying to fake it until we make it and so we do that in so many different aspects of our life whether that be in relationships or whether that be in things that we’re allowing ourselves to view on our phones. There’s instant access to everything nowadays. And and so I think where where people are failing the most is in the prevention of all of these things in in admitting or identifying the areas where they are weak, right? So um, let’s say you’re you have a weakness with a member of the opposite sex. Well you have you have to have people in your life who know that. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Shawn Hennessy — And then you have to have those people with you at all times possible. So if you’re on a Sunday and you know that you’re going to have some sort of your eyes are going to wander, well make sure that you’ve got somebody who’s with you at all times. You’re not just wandering the halls letting your eyes wander. Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah. Shawn Hennessy — If you have a problem with money, then you’ve got to let somebody know about that so that they can be performing these checks and balances on you. But we’re so we’re so afraid to admit that we have some sort of a deficit in any area of our life… Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Hennessy — …that we don’t put the safeguards in our life. And so I think back to the question at hand, is I think the biggest area that people fall is in the admission of where they’re weak. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. So, Sonny, I want to describe a situation. You know I don’t think anybody who starts in ministry says, hey I’m going to be the person that’s going to train wreck my marriage. I’m going to train wreck the church over any of these issues. Like they nobody if we all think it’s going to be somebody else, right? We all are like I’m pretty sure that person but not me, you know, which could be part of the problem. But you know there’s this um, terrible nasty part of sin where it it—at least in my own life—it like can eke its way in. It’s like very subtle at the beginning. It’s these small steps where I like make a small compromise, and you know a little compromise little compromise, little compromise, and then eventually at some point you, step over a line. You step you go beyond a place where it’s now no longer, hey I’ve got a problem with money. I now have done something that I shouldn’t have done with money at the church. Now I maybe haven’t like it’s not like you know Jim and Tammy Fay Baker kind of like I bought 4 houses and a Lamborghini, but like I stepped over something. Um, what do I do? How how do who do I go and talk to? How do I how how do I start that conversation? Sonny, where do I where do I go when when something like that happens? Because I think that that issue I think is happening to if it hasn’t happened to ah, 100% of the leaders – it’s real close to 100% of leaders that are listening in. Sonny Hennessy — Well there… like Shawn said, when we know that we could go to that one directly above us who writes our paycheck, or the board, or the denomination who approves that we stay as the lead pastor, that is a scary ah, scary point to get to. Just like it’s scary for people to go to marriage counseling sometimes until someone asks for a divorce. It’s like we could have done this sooner but that that’s the scariest part. So I I do believe that the reason we have a heart for The Exchange Collaborative in it being for all people, pastors who are in any denomination is because, like we had a youth pastor reach out to us from San Diego. I don’t have to go to his pastor. I’m not you know, obligated to go to his pastor. We’re not trying to hire him. We’re not trying to do something that would hurt the church, but he came to us in confidence, we helped him, he was overwhelmed. They’re not able to pay the bills. When you can’t pay the bills and you’re a pastor, this is where you’re a youth pastor and you can’t, and he said we’re having a hard time buying diapers and wet ones. Rich Birch — Wow. Sonny Hennessy — What’s that $20 bill that the cafe brought in this Wednesday, what’s that going to matter? I’ll put this back next week with my paycheck. And it starts there. And he didn’t say that, but that’s the risk we’re we’re taking. And I heard this recently that from a rabbi, a messianic Rabbi. Shawn and I are very much into a Messianic Jewish context of of the bible and and so we’ve been listening, and this one messianic rabbi said an unbroken leader is a dangerous leader. And that great leaders walk with the limp. Well what Shawn just talked about, the the first step is admission. If we’ll admit it and admit I’m broken I I need some help because that 20 is a big deal. Or that text to my my worship leaders, you know who’s a female, that’s a problem. That’s the first step in admitting, admitting we’re broken. Because I think all of these pastors, especially the ones who have fallen recently that were the head of many churches, wow you just so you saw them as a Billy Graham even. Like they’re going to get through the end of their life but they they obviously had never been fully broken. They were trying to carry this load and say, I am not a broken leader. But we we have to be broken. And you know the money and the sex and all of the stuff we’re talking about – it’s not really the problem. You know Shawn had a pastor’s wife that we worked for say, “Shawn, here’s some ministry advice. Keep your hand out of the offering and sleep with your own wife and you’ll be fine.” Rich Birch — True. Sonny Hennessy — But but that’s great advice but like why does someone not end up following through? Rich Birch — Right. Sonny Hennessy — It could be because at 14 you were sexually messed with, and your whole concept of sexuality has shifted, and now you want to control anything sexual, and so you find you do things that are that are wrong. There’s always a root cause and and so our hope is not just to say, hey come to us before you fall or after you fall and we’ll be ah, a listening ear and we’ll keep it confidential. We actually take people through a program that forever changed Shawn and I. I said before we didn’t have a marriage problem. We had a Shawn problem and Sonny problem that stemmed from when Shawn was in first grade and I was in I was six years old. And then the things that happened over the course of our childhood that created the problems for us in ministry that really looked like they had nothing to do with ministry. Rich Birch — Yeah, so, Shawn, why don’t you kind of frame up the different—I know there’s ah, there’s a lot that you do to help people but—kind of give us a sense of the scale of of of what you’re doing, what you’re offering, how you interface with this um, you know beyond being a listening ear. Ah, what kind of organizationally what does that look like. Shawn Hennessy — Yeah, and I would say that we’re really designed not… we’re really designed for somebody who’s at a point where they want help, right? Somebody who you have to ask yourself, do I want restoration, or preservation? And so we’re not in the we’re not in the preservation business primarily. We’re not for that guy who’s trying to save face. We’re for a guy who wants to walk his life in repentance. And when we had our fall, one of the things that we had to go through is we had to go through a program in Colorado with a guy named Dr Harry Schaumburg called Stone Gate Resources and I didn’t know what to expect. I thought it was just going to be a counseling program, but basically he made us read John Piper 12 hours a day so that we could remember what repentance was. And it was it was a breaking. And so we’re really a place for somebody who’s at a point where they’re not trying to save face in their ministry, they’re trying to get back to the to the root cause of why we became a follower of Jesus. This idea of I once was lost but now I’m found. And this this breaking of your heart and your spirit when when you first heard that message of the gospel. And so yes, we are listening here. We do want to be a place where people feel we are safe to come to, but it’s really too different for arms if you would, and and so one could be a route for somebody who is in danger of having a fall and we give them some steps to avoid that. We give them some sense and sort of accountability so that they can avoid some of the pitfalls that we and many of the other people that we’ve been blessed to work with have not avoided. And then it’s for the person who has fallen, and they have to walk away. And that was Sonny and I. Like I left the ministry. And when I left the ministry, Sonny left the ministry too. And I was unemployed for six months. I was I was a blogger which basically was my prideful way of saying I was unemployed. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Shawn Hennessy — I could not find a job. Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Hennessy — I wrote a blog that no one read. And so I was a stay at home dad and I made lunches and we didn’t have cable or internet or heat in our house. And Rich, it was the best thing that ever happened to me because it it stripped me down to the bare metal so that we could reforge forward without any sense or symbol of success. And so if it were somebody who’s fallen, we do have an opportunity for them to come here to Green Bay and ah and live in the city for a year, and go through an intense restoration process and it’s not easy. It’s not for the faint of heart. We’re honest and we’re open and we want guys to understand that this is ah it is a loving hand but it is an honest hand. And so we do have some we do have some businesses here that, down the road during their restoration, they could plug in and work at those, plug in and just sit in the church. It would be beautiful if for the first 30 days that they were here. They don’t do anything. And that’s the thing that requires us to fund this ministry. Rich Birch — Yep. Shawn Hennessy — So that people and their spouse can come here and bring their kids and not have to worry about “I’ve got to go get a job at the grocery store bagging groceries” and they’re going to have an opportunity to just sit and defragment. Some of these guys haven’t read the bible, or girls, haven’t read the bible for their own personal reflection in years because they’ve just been mining it for messages. And so you know this opportunity to sit and refresh for a period of time. Then we want to put them through the Enneagram. Let’s find out what you are? What’s your personality type. What are your what are your spiritual gifts? How many people don’t even know what their spiritual gifts are? And then put them through kind of a hybrid version of Financial Peace and a lot of these people don’t know how to deal with their money. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Hennessy — They or they may not have any money. And a hybrid version because it’s a little bit difficult in our day and age to never use a card. And I get Ramsey’s heart behind that… Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Hennessy — …but you know we go lots of places now you can’t use cash. I try to use cash somewhere the other day and the person looked at me like I was an alien. Like I was trying to hand them… Rich Birch — Right, right. What planet are you from? Shawn Hennessy — …Like like I was trying to hand them paper Covid or something… Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Hennessy — …and they say, I only take cards. And then this restoration process where the basis of our process is—and and if you put it in the the secular terminology, every person at some point has had some sort of a trauma where they were fixated. My brother’s a brother’s a psychologist. He actually lives in Fort Erie, Ontario… Rich Birch — Oh nice. Shawn Hennessy — …and is a professor at Buffalo State, and and in the secular world they would call it fixation, where once you’ve been fixated on a certain moment in your life, you’re emotionally not able to mature more than 18 months beyond that point, meaning that when you come to another moment of trauma, and any time you come to a moment of trauma thereafter, you revert emotionally back to that particular point. Rich Birch — Oh wow. Yeah. Shawn Hennessy — In the spiritual world it was called we’re arrested in development, right? And so every time you come into a point of trauma you are triggered back to that moment. So back to Sonny’s point where I was in first grade when I identified my moment of fixation, or when I was arrested in development, and so for the rest of my life up until the point that I received restoration and healing, any time that I had anyone challenge me on anything, I would at best act like a third grader. And so I would yell, and I would pout, and I would hide things, and I would lie. And and if you don’t understand that somebody’s acting like a third grader then you just think, you know, what a creep. But when you understand in this context, and when Sonny and I began to understand where we were arrested at development through through the restoration process, which is not quick. I mean the program is a number of months. And then it it really what happens is once you identify that moment of trauma, it unlocks in your brain. And you know it’s like the renewing of the mind, and they’ve done brain scans where once that was identified the neurons then rush to that area of your brain and and you supernaturally begin to mature at a rapid rate. But it does take your brain 3 years to fully rewire itself, and so it is ah a continual process. But there’s so much healing that happens almost instantly. And so as Sonny and I went through that process, we were able to identify with each other I would go, oh well right now Sonny is xyz. Or she’d say, well Shawn’s right now, Shawn’s in the third grade. And it didn’t make it okay but it made it relatable. Rich Birch — Right, right. Understandable. Shawn Hennessy — And so that’s the biggest bulk that of the program is helping these pastors identify, yes, you have a money problem. But you know when I went through the beginning stages of my restoration process, I went through Emerge, you know, in Ohio. And the counselor that I talked to, he looked at me and at the time I was dealing with a financial issue. And and he said something that was so eye opening to me. Said you know, money’s not your issue. It’s the symptom of your issue. He said if you don’t identify the root of what your issue is, you’re going to move from money to something else. It’ll be pornography. It’ll be an affair. It’ll be food. It’ll be gambling. It’ll be something. And so for us if we can help these guys and and girls figure out what it was that that threw them off track, and they may have been six years old, and then let’s reverse engineer how to get that back. And and for me honestly, Rich, the goal isn’t to get people back in ministry. Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Hennessy — If they want to go back in ministry Then that’s great. But I really want people to be healthy and whole, and at the end of the day I want them to go to heaven. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Sonny, let’s talk about that restoration piece. You know with the folks that have come through your program. What is the you know trajectory? Like obviously I love the – part of what I love about you guys, I love your focus on like, yeah, yeah, all that other stuff but let’s actually talk about where you’re at your relationship with Jesus, who are you as a person – that’s the most important piece. I know there’s people that are listening in that are that are thinking like either I’ve stepped on a bomb and it’s about to blow up, or it blew up and no one knows, and they’re thinking about the future. Talk through you know what is the trajectory on people being restored. It feels like I was in a conversation earlier today with a leader who said, I feel like we used to restore people to ministry but that doesn’t happen anymore. Like it’s like we just flush them out, and then we they never end up back. So give us a sense of kind of what are you seeing with the folks that you’re working with, Sonny. Sonny Hennessy — There are different needs because everybody’s individual, obviously, so there’s those that need to come more in residence like like Shawn talked about – come and we house them. We get them a job. We have them be in church, sitting there. We have them go through what is called Journey to Wholeness. And that would be a ten week course once a week. That’s the take it for ten weeks and you’re processing as you go, and then you probably take it again, especially if you’re with us for a year. There’s also the people that we fly to them. And we sit with them because they’re not able to leave, and come to us for thirty days or a year. We go to them. And we’ve done that where we’ve gone to a pastor, worked with a pastor while they’re staying in their church, or staying in their congregation if they’re a messianic rabbi, and and we work with them, and their children, and their family. And then we bring out the Journey to Wholeness ah co-founder to do these intensives, because she is so great and she’s the top of the Journey to Wholeness of of all the people who are helping people just in our church, she can go and take this to other cities and has. Sonny Hennessy — Ah, then we have something that’s even more approachable, and she’s done intensives—like a 2 to 3 day weekend—either going to the people. She’s been to Dallas, Seattle, soon to be Arizona um, or people can come to us for a weekend in Green Bay. So then the third thing, and we’re actually just going to do this for the—it’s kind of the first time that we’re advertising it; we’ve done this multiple times—it’s an intensive in a location where we’re giving the dates and we’re opening it up to people. We may not know so June 23rd through the 25th in Golden Canyon, Arizona, just outside of Phoenix. We’re hosting it at Living Waters Retreat. They’re sponsoring it and donating this for us to use because they see the need for pastors. So it would be for pastors or probably, hopefully, couples who um, who will be able to register on our website. And you know at this point we think we’re going to have to close it off because it’s better when it’s smaller. So you’re actually the first time we’ve said this publicly… Rich Birch — Oh nice. Sonny Hennessy — …June … through 25th The Exchange Collaborative will be hosting this intensive where it’s a two day, two and a half day process. And like I said then there’s also the option that we are contacted directly through our website at theexchangecollaborative.com and then we go to pastors, to churches. I mean they could say look we need this between myself and my spouse. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Sonny Hennessy — That’s it or it could be, can you come in and meet with me – my board knows. Or I’m like I said a youth pastor, can can you come in and talk to me, but only my senior pastor knows. And some it’s all over the headlines, and you know we hope that some of those people will even reach out. Rich Birch — Okay, this is great. So I want to ah, there’s a lot I’d love to talk to you. I do want to come back, make sure we give out those website addresses again. So friends, if you didn’t catch them get your pen. We will come back to that. Shawn, what can we do in our churches to create the kind of environment where people are willing to raise their hand. So I’m thinking about you know I’m executive pastor listening in, I’ve got a staff team of 15 people. Yeah I’m I may be worried, I’m not worried about my lead pastor in the sense of like oh I’m worried something went wrong, but I’m like let’s assume that that that person’s got their stuff together. But I’m thinking about the other 15 people on our team. What can we do to create the kind of culture where people are willing to to open up about like, hey this this is is an area in my life that’s going off the rails. Or what should I do if I’m if I want to create the kind of place where that that could happen? Any any ideas about that, Shawn? Shawn Hennessy — Well in our personal context, we just created a culture of vulnerability… Rich Birch — Right Shawn Hennessy — …where it’s okay to not be okay. And if you can’t admit that you’re not okay, you’ll never become okay – you’ll never get the help. And so of course for us, we have the luxury that it does come from the top down. But if nothing else you’ve got to gather with somebody who you know, somebody who you who you can trust, who you can be vulnerable with, who who you can trust. And so once we start to own the things that are a deficiency in our life, with with the attitude… I think there was a phase where where people wanted to be relevant. But really what that meant is they wanted to be crass. And so I don’t think that we’re looking for that… Rich Birch — Right. Shawn Hennessy — …to where a guy can borderline brag about the fact that he drinks beer or that he, you know cusses or you know, whatever that there was that culture there in the in the late 90s where it was like how far can you go? I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about, hey I’m struggling with anger. Have any of you struggled with anger? Oh bro. Yeah totally, I struggle I struggle with anger all time. Well, how do you deal with that? and it’s not like you have to bare your whole soul. But you can start out with just some of those general, I’m not going to get fired over them things. And lay down a foundation among your team, where like if you are the executive pastor, maybe you’re holding committee meetings and in those things, you’ll use them as prayer requests. I mean I think we still pray for each other? Rich Birch — Yes. Shawn Hennessy — And this idea of I mean do we really want to pray for each other? It’s like the old adage where people say, you know, how you doing? Do you really want to know? Rich Birch — Right, right. Sure sure. Shawn Hennessy —We’ve got a created environment where we really do want to know. And and we want to… Sonny Hennessy — And like and if I can add, during this pandemic, Shawn and I cried in front of our staff. And I had a lot of regrets, I’d walk away and look at him and go boy I blew that and I’m not a good leader. Our staff—and we had attrition—we had some staff that I think went, wow we thought they were healthy and whole and on the rise after their last fall. And they’re they’re kind of acting like they don’t know what to do you know in the middle of a pandemic, and maybe they’re not the leaders we thought they were. They don’t have character issues now but they’re just not very strong. And I think it can like unnerve some people who’ve put you on a pedestal. But honestly, we both cried. We both wrung our fists, and didn’t know what to do. And and then we saw our staff say, I literally am just hanging on; I have so much anxiety. Five years ago none of our staff would have thought, I’m having anxiety and I need to say something about it. We also do Journey to Wholeness. It’s a Journey to Wholeness is a course we do with our staff, and if we have too many staff members that have come on since the last time, we’ll redo journey to Wholeness. Rich Birch — Right. Sonny Hennessy — Shawn and I have done journey to wholeness three times now, and we would do it again… Rich Birch — Right. Sonny Hennessy — …and we could offer that to churches journey to wholeness is now coming into corporations. And their HR departments bringing them in to work with the staff so that they quit losing staff… Rich Birch — Right. Sonny Hennessy — …who just can’t handle the pressure… Rich Birch — Totally. Sonny Hennessy — …but they have issues from childhood. Rich Birch — Love it. This has been incredible. There’s so much we could talk about here; I feel like we’re just scratching the surface. Like gosh there’s so many other things I’d love to ah, to dive in, but I do want to respect your time. I know you guys have got a lot going on so I appreciate you being here today. Why don’t we give ladies the last word so, Sonny, what what do you want to say as we wrap up, as we kind of close off today’s episode, as we’re kind of but kind of try to tie this stuff up here? Sonny Hennessy — Well I think trust is a big thing to say, hey I need help, but can I trust these people? For sure it would be important that you listen to a couple of our Rise After the Fall Podcasts on any of the platforms. Just so people can get an understanding of not just Shawn and I, but the path and the process we’re talking about. Ah they can go to theexchangecollaborative.com which talks both to leaders and it talks to pastors. I don’t um and at that point they can also register for the retreat in Arizona. If that gets full, our hope would be to add more. But as they will see there are both – we come to you, you come to us, how much, and what is the commitment level. And we definitely are not trying to form some structure that is immovable. It’s not a one-size-fits-all, but the the basics the what Shawn just talked about. Those are musts, right? We have to get to the root. We have to get to the fixation point. And we think that’s that’s the biggest key to all of this, really. Rich Birch — Love it. Shawn, Sonny, I’ve really appreciated you being here today. Shawn, where do we want to send people online? Let’s give them the website addresses and stuff again where we want them to connect if they’re, you know, I’m hoping there’s people that are saying like, I man I need to reach out to these folks and have this start this conversation. Where do we want to send them? Shawn Hennessy — Yeah, theexchangecollaborative.com. Our podcast is on, as Sonny said, on all platforms The Rise After the Fall. Our church website is lifechurchgreenbay.com. We’re actually just now starting a series called The Rise After the Fall where I’ve got 5 pastors coming in who had failures and came back from them. They had incredible success after a fall. And so theexchangecollaborative.com lifechurchgreenbay.com and then The Rise After the Fall on any of your platforms. Rich Birch — Great. Well, we’ll definitely make sure we link to all that – it’ll be in the show notes. I want to encourage you to follow follow these guys. Good friends, people that are doing great work, you you… it’s It’s been an honor that you would come back on the podcast. Thanks so much for being here today. Shawn Hennessy — Thank you, brother.

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tiffany Henning, founder of HR Ministry Solutions which helps with human resources in churches and faith-based ministries. At the beginning of 2021, many churches were restructuring their staff. Now in 2022 with so much inflation, there are concerns about how to compensate staff fairly. These things combined with the fact that so many have left ministry over the last few years leave churches realizing they need to retain the staff they have and take care of them well. Listen in as Tiffany shares insights into current HR trends in ministry and changes you can make now. Address harassment issues. // Aside from COVID issues, Tiffany says the second most common phone calls HR Ministry Solutions gets are about harassment issues. There is more unwelcome and offensive conduct these days, and so harassment issues can come up often within churches.Align pay rates with market value. // In 2022 the biggest challenge has been compensation because of inflation and the difficulty finding new quality staff hires. Churches are realizing that they need to hold onto the staff they have and align pay rates with the current market value.You have to be proactive. // By the time you hear from an employee that they’re not happy or they’re looking at other places, you’ve already lost them. Be continually plugged into your staff. Have “stay interviews” and ask your staff how they feel about working for you, what motivates them to come to work, what they are passionate about, and what would motivate them to leave. Download a sample Stay Interview template from HR Ministry Solutions here.The top of the lists. // While your budget will ultimately drive compensation, studies show that pay is actually not number one on the list of what is keeping people at their jobs. They’re looking for time off, flexibility, work life balance, good culture, and to be poured into. These things cost time more than money, and if staff leaves you will spend much more time rehiring for the open positions than you would caring for existing staff on a regular basis. Deciding on outsourcing. // Churches are taking more steps toward a flexible work arrangement by looking at what they can outsource, such as accounting and creative needs. There are many organizations that can do things at the fraction of the cost of a staff person. To decide whether some things can be outsourced, think about your compensation strategy and what things you really want to put your money into without causing a major shift in culture.Regular check-ins with your staff. // Weekly and bi-weekly check-ins with the staff are becoming more common because regular, low key, honest conversations are healthy and needed with your team. They can help keep your staff from burning out and help you understand what issues they may be facing outside of the church. Having that relational capital really helps you understand and minister to your team while also leading people in a much better way.Change starts at the top. // Culture changes come from the top down. If the lead pastor isn’t on board about making changes to better care for the staff, it will all fizzle out. Take a look at yourself and make sure you are involved in those changes to model them for your staff. Realize that one staff person going south can really tank your entire staff, and a big chunk of your church as well. Conversely helping your staff helps your numbers and the whole church.Mental well-being. // The percentage of people in ministry that take anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medication is big. It is a stressful job and one benefit people in ministry can really use is paid professional Christian counseling. Offer this as a benefit to everyone—even during work hours—so they can receive the help they need. Another thing to consider is allowing dogs in the workplace. Pets are emotional support animals and can help with your staff’s stress and mental well-being.Free burnout webinar. // HR Ministry Solutions did a free webinar they are sharing with us called Identifying Staff Burnout & Learning How You Heal with a downloadable checklist you can use. Often church staff don’t realize they are struggling with burnout until they read through a list of the symptoms. You can learn more about HR Ministry Solutions, sign-up for their newsletter, and book a free 15-minute consultation call at www.hrministrysolutions.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well hey, friends welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know today we have got a guest for you that it’s a real treat. I’m super excited to have Tiffany Henning with us. She is with an organization or runs an organization called ah HR Ministry Solutions. This…Tiffany’s an expert. I know I sometimes play one on the internet, but she actually is. Whenever I think of human resources issues in the church at the top of the list is Tiffany. She’s incredible. HR Ministry Solutions – they really do provide a lot of solutions for churches to ensure that their cultures are healthy and sustainable. They do consulting, she has all kinds of online resources, handbooks, you know, sexual harassment training, all kinds of good things. Ah Tiffany, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Tiffany Henning — Thank you. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your enthusiasm. Rich Birch — Oh no, it’s true like… Tiffany Henning — Most people don’t get that enthusiastic outside of myself and my staff about HR, so thank you. Rich Birch — No, no, it’s good. I know. Well I well for as a leader, someone who’s had teams for years, I know this is one of those areas—this is probably why I love you so much, love what you do—this is one of those areas we can either be defensive, like we just wait for problems to come up, or we can be, you know, we can be proactive and say like hey let’s go and actually put in systems that’ll help us build incredible cultures. And I know you are much more interested in the proactive, how do we get ahead of the game. Tiffany Henning — Yeah. Rich Birch — So fill out the picture – kind of tell us a bit more about HR Ministry Solutions. What did I miss there? Tiffany Henning — Yeah, absolutely we are actually a faith-based organization ourself. So we only work with churches, church ministries, mission organizations, and the like. Um and we love it. We were really birthed out of our own experiences in the church. Ah, working in the church world, ministry and stuff, and really just have a passion for um, you know helping people in the ministry scale HR things and ah my staff have all either worked in the church HR, have done ah have done ministry in churches, or another ministry. Um, and we’re also married to pastors as well. So yeah. Rich Birch — Nice. So yeah, real steeped in the church environment which is so good and this is why I reached out to Tiffany, I said okay here we are. We’re coming to closing in on 600 and some odd episodes and I really wanted to kind of tap your brain on kind of what you’re seeing. Out there in the environment. You talk to a lot of different churches. You are constantly connected with them. What would you say are a few of those kind of HR related issues that you just see as common or or you keep running into, you know, with churches in this season? Tiffany Henning — Ah, you know that’s great there there just always is that overarching ah thing which is like staff handbooks. You know, I tell people outsource your staff handbook. I don’t know if you… even if you have an HR group of like 10, just outsource it. You will stab your eye out otherwise. I’m like… Rich Birch — Haha, nice. Tiffany Henning — You know, let us do it. Or someone else that you know. We do ’em specifically for churches and ministries so we know those extra things that you can put in or remove as a faith-based organization. Um, you know and aside from Covid, like the second most common phone calls we get are actually harassment issues. And um… Rich Birch — Interesting. Tiffany Henning — …because I think um, you know previously people think harassment is like Harry Weinstein you know, like like very tied with the the sexual piece. You know, do this for me and I’ll do that for you. Tiffany Henning — But really, it’s it’s more nuanced nowadays. It’s more unwelcome conduct, offensive, you know it’s all in the in the interpretation of the victim and things like that. And in churches where you are hugs waiting to happen and you know our relationships are a lot different and closer and more casual than they are in the corporate world. I think that’s why it comes up a little bit more often. Or people just feel like your church, everyone needs to be wonderful and they forget we’re all human and messy in that. Rich Birch — Hmm, interesting. Interesting. Yeah there’s there’s a ton. Um, you know, um, particularly on that that would be good to unpack, maybe at ah at a future date. I’ve been actually thinking about getting a bit of a panel together because that that definitely seems like one of those issues that obviously is not going away because as you say people are people. People are humans and there’s a lot there for us to wrestle through. And I know one of the things that I have run into as I’ve talked with leaders—in fact, actually just yesterday was texting with a leader. Um you know senior leader in a church, and they were they were comparing notes. They’re like, hey what’s happening on your compensation side and they were reflecting, hey they’ve seen a 14% increase—this is one church that was seeing a 14% increase in their compensation line this year because of just everything we’re seeing on that front. What what’s happening what are you seeing on that with you know, kind of out there in in the church world these days? Tiffany Henning — Yeah, absolutely. It’s really interesting that the beginning of 2021, the big thing is everyone was restructuring their staff. They were realizing covid was here to stay, let’s restructure our staff and we have to change the way we do things, change the way we’re doing ministry. Um, you know shift people around, and and all of those things. This year the biggest thing has been compensation. Because as you mentioned, like inflation I think it’s like 6.8%, 7%, 7.9% – it keeps going up. And gas prices. So those things added to the fact that this whole great resignation which is people are just leaving ministry altogether, that finding quality ministry people, staff hires is getting more difficult and so churches are finding, hey I need to retain the staff I have and help them through just this high financial with housing and gas and everything. You know so they’re asking more for hey we need to align our our pay rates with market value more so. Traditionally people were like we’re just going to… it’s a church, it’s a ministry, you know you’re not going to get paid anything. But I’ve really seen the shift of, hey we need to pay our people what they’re worth to retain them because they also know, hey if we hire someone new, we’re gonna have to pay more than we’re than we’re paying now in order to woo someone over to, you know, our organization. Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s can we dig in on that? Like what what should we be thinking about as we think about kind of the compensation issue? I’ll give you a story for my own past. We there was a key ministry leader—um, obviously not going to reveal any details here, but you know—a key ministry leader who ah, came to us and they were considering a move, and and literally kind of put us over a barrel. We’re like this other organization wants to pay me X and um, that was considerable. It wasn’t just like ooh this is a little bit. This is a pretty big jump. Um, and you know, what, basically, what can you do about it? And um, so you know we kicked it around as a leadership team. I loved… it was one of these times—the moral this story is I was wrong just so you know this is where this was heading. Ah you know, ah we kicked it around as a leadership team. Our finance director was like, we should not do this. Like if we do this ah, you can’t keep people just with money. Um, that, you know, will not work. And I was like no no, no, it’s going to be great. Like we’re going to keep this person; it’s going to work out. And yet that’s not what happened you know, we gave them the raise and within six months they actually still ended up leaving, actually to a different you know, different organization altogether. So I’m concerned when I… ao when I hear this stuff I’m like oh it’s anxious because of past pain. But how should we be thinking about our compensation in the season? What what if you were advising a church, you know what would you be kind of wrestling through that? What were some of the steps we should take when we think about those things? Tiffany Henning — Those are great questions and actually that’s a really great example for you, because everything I know and everything I read says, you know if someone comes to you with a better offer and they bring it back for you to match, especially in the church world, you can match it all day long but within six months—and that’s what you said within six months—they’re probably going to be gone anyways because it’s not just a financial thing. There are other issues that are wooing them away and you know they think it’ll be the money that makes them happy and it’s not. So you’ve already kind of lost the person at that point. So really that first and foremost things is goes back to what you said just in the intro and when it comes to HR’s you have to be proactive. Because by the time you already hear from an employee that they’re not happy, or looking at other places, or whatever, you’ve already lost them, for the most part, you’ve already lost them. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Tiffany Henning — And so or there may already be some bitterness or or issues that they’re dealing with that, you know at that point there’s too much water under the bridge. So you know the first thing I say—and I’m going to give you some steps on the compensation side… Rich Birch — OK. Tiffany Henning — …but one of the first things I say is you have to be plugged into your staff. Like don’t assume no news is good news. So well, we really recommend there is something called a stay interview. We love these. These are when you get with your staff and you ask them hey, how do you feel about working for us? What motivates you? What what are you passionate about? What motivates you to come to work? What would motivate you to leave our organization? You know, just really getting those, finding out what would cause them to leave, what would lure them to leave, and what keeps them there. Because those are the conversations you have if they’re like, well you know, really you know what would would lure me to leave is if I had a better role in leadership, or something like that. And you’re like, wow I didn’t even know this person… you know this person is a custodian and I didn’t even know they wanted to be a pastor. (I had that situation before just so you know.) I didn’t know they were interested in the pastoral track. And so really gives you an opportunity to pour into those people before it became a unrest in their heart and mind. Um, you know when it comes to pay, when it comes to market ranges, we also understand—and everyone understands in the church world—your budget is going to ultimately drive it. You can’t pay market range if that takes out your whole budget. Rich Birch — Yes, totally. Tiffany Henning — Yeah, like you you know, but there’s a lot of other things that you could do. In fact, all the studies now show that pay is like number 4 or 5 on the list of what people are looking for. They’re looking for time off, they’re looking for flexibility, they’re they’re looking for work/life balance, they’re looking for good culture. And they’re looking to be poured into. So those are the things and most of those things don’t cost you a penny. Rich Birch — Right. Tiffany Henning — I mean they cost you a little bit of time, you know. And yes, time is money, but think about how much time you’re going to spend rehiring that position if they leave. Rich Birch — So true. Tiffany Henning — And any other relational capital that comes up, you know, with that person leaving especially if it’s not a good thing. So you know totally in that um, really time off is a huge thing that you could do that, at the end of the day for the most part, is not going to cost you an extra penny. Now if you, you know, have a preschool and you got to hire a substitute, yeah, that cost you money. You know if you have a worship leader and you got to hire someone to replace it for Sunday, yes, that costs you money. But for most of your staff , they cover for each other. And so making more time off is a way. Number one people are more rested; it prevents them from getting burned out. Um you know and everything like that. The flexibility is allowing them to work from home, giving them boundaries, don’t text them at three o’clock in the morning, you know… Rich Birch — Yes. Tiffany Henning — …realize the world will stop won’t stop spinning if they don’t answer that email or text right away. I mean really, we we as the church world are so bad at that, but we need to understand that God calls us to a lot of things, not to always be attached. He caused… like you look at Jesus and yes, he ministered to the 5000, but even when there were still needs, he pulled away. He invested in his 12, he invested in his 3, and even pulled away for himself to go hang out and pray to God, and just kind of give him some rest. So we really need to model that. Sorry that was a ah huge tangent there. But… Rich Birch — No, no, no, no, no, it’s so good. Actually I’d love to stick on this kind of flexibility thing. One of my hunches—again, this is where you’re the expert I’m just the person that talks to people—ah I hear more and more, you know, these kind of flexible working arrangements, whether it’s like fractional roles—even at the senior level. Like a fractional executive pastor or um, you know more remote stuff going on, or more part-time roles, or job-sharing, those kind of things, which seemed like they were um, like churches did them, but it was kind of like the total flexibility or the total sum of them was like well we have part-time staff and we have full-time staff. That was kind of it… Tiffany Henning — Yeah. Rich Birch — …like we don’t have all of this. Are are we seeing more of that? Are you seeing more of kind of a bunch of different ways that churches are doing that? Is there anything we should be thinking about if we’re going to take a step towards a more flexible staff arrangement? Tiffany Henning — Um, yeah, there’s a lot of things that churches are doing. One of the things are is they’re outsourcing things a little bit more than traditionally. Accounting is actually one of the big things we’ve seen a lot of outsourcing. And then of course a lot of the creative things you know, huge huge churches that maybe really want to have their hands on certain things, you know, we understand. But when you start to look at all the organizations and companies out there that can do your graphic design, can do certain video, can do things at a fraction of the cost as a staff person. Like really figure out what your first things first are, figure out your compensation strategy, where do we really want to put money into, and then that’ll help you figure out, okay, what can we outsource without causing a major shift in our culture. Um, you know, but when it comes to the whole flexibility, absolutely a lot of churches have, you know, they used to be: everyone needs to be in here from this time to this time. Now they have like one to two workdays where everyone is, you know, or one day that everyone’s expected to be in the office and then flexible arrangements for other people. Granted some of your support staff may still need to be there. I mean a facilities worker can’t really work remotely. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Tiffany Henning — You know, but maybe they could work at three o’clock in the morning. I don’t know. Rich Birch — Right. Tiffany Henning — But you know really kind of figuring that out. Um how it works for them. I think definitely another piece is like stay-at-home parents. Like parents who have kids to be able to work through that and work around that. Um that is ah the huge value. And I have to say like our organization, ah, you know as well as I, love staying home here. Like I love people who are coming back into the workforce. I love that because they are some of the hardest workers, and most passionate people that I’ve seen in the workforce. Rich Birch — Yeah I love it. And when you think about you know that whole, that kind of touches the staff structure issue. You kind of mentioned this earlier but again thinking that last year was it was like the year of the video editor. Like if you were a video editor and were like, you know, I’m sure there’s I would love to know the statistic of how many like 21-year-old video editors in churches got hired in 2021, because I think it would be tens of thousands of them. Like it was It’s like every church has found the guy in the youth group who can do video and now he’s like embedded in the church staff. So there was that were some of those kind of covid reaction hires. But then as you said there’s that’s kind of shaking out. What are some of the trends you’re seeing on that front as you think about kind of you know, rethinking realigning staff structure? Tiffany Henning — You know that’s really good. There’s a lot of um online pastors – that has become a huge thing as well. But when they’re looking at staff structure, we really see again it goes back to 2021 and now people streamlining a little bit more. Like you used to have like an executive pastor that was over 17 people… Rich Birch — Sure. Yes. Tiffany Henning — …and you know there’s no way to really pour into 17 people and really have your eye on the ball. So what we’re seeing more is people really empowering people under them. Um, and being more involved in the day to day of your staff. Now that doesn’t mean micromanaging, but again going back to that 21-year-old who is doing the video video editing, they may have mad skills in video editing but this may be their first job ever. Rich Birch — Yes. Tiffany Henning — They may not know you know they may not have leadership skills. They may not know how to interact with people. And honestly they may not make the best mature decisions. I’m not saying all 20-year-old, 21-year-olds are like that, I am just saying we need to understand and not assume that okay they they know this stuff. You know so we’re seeing people ah, being a little bit more intentional and not leaving these people out in the island by themselves. They’re really kind of pouring into them more. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Okay, so one of the things that I know is a passion for you is really this whole area of organizational health. That really, we’re trying to focus on how do we make sure that our staff are healthy. And you kind of touched on this when we were thinking about the compensation part. I’d love to kind of dig in a little bit more. What are we seeing as kind of best practices around increasing you know, making this a great place to work, not just a place that’s a paycheck, making this the kind of place that people want to come to. What are some of those things that, you know if a church calls you up and is like, I think we need to you know we need to fix… I’m not sure where to start. Where where would you what kind of things we’d have them thinking about? Tiffany Henning — In their culture? Rich Birch — Yeah. Tiffany Henning — You know what? Honestly the first thing and probably the biggest thing right now is is really the shift from, oh we’re all on the front lines and we’re ministering to God together—not that that’s not true but um—seeing their staff as also people they need to disciple, that they need to pour into, not wait for an annual review to have an issue, to have these discussions. So really weekly, biweekly check-ins are becoming more common. And honestly, they’re more healthy because you can have honest conversations that are more low key and don’t feel as heavy. And these weekly or biweekly meetings start to build relational capital with your staff. You have more of a chance to see them starting to burn out before they even get there. You have a better idea of knowing what’s going on in their personal life, so when they’re late every day you find out, you know you know that their whole staff their whole family has been struck with covid, and is having a really hard time. So again, having that relational capital really helps you understand and and minister but also lead people in a much better way. Yeah. Rich Birch — Yeah, you know I literally was just talking to Scot Longyear. He is a lead pastor of a church in Indiana called Maryland Community Church was ironic for the name, but and he was literally just we were just talking about this. They a part of their staff responsibilities, a part of their what they do is their personal discipleship time, like their devotions. Like he’s like that is baked into I pay my staff to do that. And he’s like you know he’s like I know that sounds crazy. It’s like shouldn’t they all just do it. He’s like well I want to make sure they do it because I know if hey my team is growing spiritually if they’re developing as people, trickledown impact on the church is going to be amazing. And I was like wow I I don’t know any church—I’ve never heard I said this to him—I don’t know any church; I’ve never heard a church articulate it like that. That say like, hey where we want this to be a part of—it’s obviously it’s and it’s a it’s a given expectation—but the fact of saying hey do we want this to be a part of your you know, did you do that this week? Let’s talk about it. Ah, is fantastic – I love that. When you think about this discipling staff, what is that what are some other are they have you heard of any other kind of innovative practices or things that have stuck out to you around kind of increasing the spiritual development of our team as they serve with us? Tiffany Henning — Yeah, um, and and actually let me take a little rabbit trail for a moment… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, love it. Tiffany Henning — …and this is ah this is a heavy comment but this is what we see a lot. We will deal with ah HR people, Ops people, even sometimes executive pastors, people who want to see the change. But they’re not always the top level leadership, and so sometimes they’re trying to lead-up which is extremely difficult. But when it comes to culture, it really really has to be from the top down. Like I’ve been in organizations and I’ve worked with people in organizations as the HR person they’re trying to lead laterally, but if the executive Team ah you know, lead pastor, whatever, if they are not on board and modeling this and pushing, it making it a core value, it’s going to fizzle. So I really really encourage um, people to you kno,w in those levels to really kind of take a hard look at themselves and feel like am I part of the problem first. And invite you know, trusted advisors into their life to speak into them. I worked with a church once where the person was telling me that that they wanted to start this thing with staff of prayer and worship, and all this stuff and and the lead team was basically like that’s fine as long as we don’t have to be involved in it. And you know and it was like and I understand from a mindset of their schedules are so busy already. Rich Birch — Yes. Tiffany Henning — But at the same time again. We need to realize we need to model what Jesus models, and realize that really one staff person going south can really tank your entire staff and a big chunk of your church… Rich Birch — So true. Tiffany Henning — …so pouring in your staff really is helping your numbers, is helping the the building, helping the box. Ah you know, all those – the 3B’s the bodies, box, buildings – it really you know directly affects those things that maybe even the churches who want to grow are not thinking about so. Rich Birch — Love it. Any other areas when you think about you know, kind of reshifting to staff health, thinking about staff health, is there other other things we should be thinking about on that front these days? Tiffany Henning — Um, you know mental illness is kind of the catchall word. But I the percentage of ministry people, pastors, people in ministry, that take antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication is huge. I think it’s close to 40% to be honest with you. There’s some loose surveys in that, and that should be extremely telling to us. The number one most stressful job year after year in all these us surveys are social workers. And so if pastors are not social workers, I don’t know what they are. You know? Rich Birch — Sure. Yes, yes. Tiffany Henning — So really, it is the most stressful job, and you don’t ever check out of it. Rich Birch — Right, right. Tiffany Henning — You know and when you’re ministering when you have a relationship with God and you’re ministering to people about God It really becomes tied together a lot. So when it when it comes to the health of your workers, again pouring into them, getting getting a handle on where they’re standing, making some of those additional benefits flexible as well. I think a couple benefits that are also really good is paid professional counseling. I cannot say that enough. And maybe require your people to do it. And here’s the thing too for your married spouses. Um have them do it with their spouse as well. I read an article—it might have been by Carey Nieuwhof a couple months ago—and it was about the ah the most overlooked person in the church, and it was the pastor’s spouse. So you know that is that is a huge thing. Rich Birch — So true. Tiffany Henning — Because again what happens at home affects their work. So I think offering professional counseling—that doesn’t mean your your board members or elders are counseling them—like a professional Christian counselor. That way they know it’s confidential but they have a place to process through everything that they’re going through and feelings. And then one other (weird) but one other really top benefit um, that has come to the surface, like I mean it’s not weird, but it’s ah dogs in the workplace. Or animals in the workplace. Rich Birch — Really?! Tiffany Henning — That has become huge. It’s funny I was I was um ah, looking at a Christian organization. Ah you know their business but they’re Christian that serve churches, and I was looking at their staff handbook, and they have an entire section -an entire section in their handbook! – on dogs in the workplace. And I was like wow, that’s interesting to me that they they really have that core value. But when you think about this whole thing over the last decade about you know dogs and cats and whatever being emotional support animals, there really is truth to that. You know obviously you’re going to have to set some groundwork, you know, ground rules about barking, and keeping them separated, and the types of animals that come in the workplace, as well as their their bowel movements elsewhere. Rich Birch — Yes. Tiffany Henning — Am I allowed to say that on podcast? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fine. Tiffany Henning — Um, ah anyway, but you know what I think there could be just super super high value in that. Especially if your people are feeling stressed and everything like that, there is this correlation between pets and people’s well-being and mental well-being, so that also could be a very good answer. Again, you have to make sure people aren’t allergic and and kind of scale certain work groups and departments. But there definitely is a way I think to integrate that. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that. I’ve I’ve definitely I’ve, so I’m a dog person. Love I love my dog. She’s fantastic. She’s like a little bit – she’s a rescue, which is fantastic, but a part of the outcome of her being a rescue is she’s quite a nervous dog. Tiffany Henning — Yes. Rich Birch — Not aggressive but just nervous. Like she like it’s freaked out at the weirdest stuff, and so I’ve sometimes thought like it’d be fun to take her to the office. I’m like no, that’s like way too nerve-racking for her, that will be like you know crazy. Tiffany Henning — Yep. Rich Birch — But yeah, that’s cool though – I could totally see that Well I think particularly again, that’s seems like a post-covid thing. Tiffany Henning — Yes. Rich Birch — Everybody got a dog over Covid and then now it’s like, now what do we do with them? Tiffany Henning — I know. Rich Birch — You know, kind of thing which is yeah, that’s really cool. Tiffany Henning — I know and they all got rescues like I have a German shepherd That’s like your little dog… Rich Birch — Yes. Tiffany Henning — …and trust me when that dog gets scared over the Instapot and anything like that and she tries to climb on you – not just sit on your lap like climb on top of your head like she’s trying to get tall. So yeah I definitely – she would not be a good go-to-work dog. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s so good. Um, so I love earlier you talked about the stay interview, which I’m like I don’t know why I’ve never heard of that before. I’m like that’s such a great idea. Um, are there, when you think about um kind of the mental health area, and to kind of getting back to that, are there other are there ways to bring up mental health with our team in a way that respects them that doesn’t like, no one likes to be told they should go to a counselor. No one likes to be told like, hey you should do that. How can we do that? You know, we’ve tried to be the kind of environments that are ah, definitely pro-counseling and like we’ll talk about it as leaders, and talk about positive experiences as individuals, or like I talk about about me and my wife when we’ve been in counseling and just how positive that’s been. Outside of kind of the general culture setting if it, what kind of conversation could we be having, or or how could we approach that conversation to say, hey like you know there may be some issues here that you you should be wrestling through. Any advice for us on that front? Tiffany Henning — Yeah, again, it goes back to having those weekly/biweekly check-ins. Rich Birch — Yep. Tiffany Henning — You build relational capital. You can ask those questions. Hey, on a scale from 1 to 5 how stressed are you? Um, heard this great question—I don’t know where I saw it—this great question many years ago leaders can ask the people under them: how will I know you’re stressed out? What will I see like? Rich Birch — That’s good. Tiffany Henning — And I always jokingly say you know you will see a sixty four ounce Dr Pepper from Seven Eleven right next to me as long as as well as some Hostess product. That’s how you will know I’m stressed out. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Tiffany Henning — Or I’ll have angry eyes. You know? Rich Birch — Yes, that’s great. That’s a good question. Tiffany Henning — So those are the those are the things as well. I would recommend this—people may not agree with me—and I recommend this. The last two years has been super hard and I would be surprised if the majority of your staff wasn’t burned out or headed that way. Um, the people who’ve been with you for 2 years. It’s been a crazy 2 years for all of it because not only have we scaled it in the workplace in the church, but we scaled it in our personal lives, with kids at home, not at home. We scaled it working from home now and blurring the lines between work and and home. Those boundaries you know we have ou our phones set to ding every time we get an email. So those kind of things um, you know are difficult. In light of that, I would almost say number one, pay people their hourly wage to go do counseling. So have them do it in the middle of the work day or whatever. So pay them because then you can require them to do it. Um, and again, let them know, hey we won’t we don’t know, even if we recommend that you go to this person – there’s confidentiality. Rich Birch — Yep. Tiffany Henning — So whatever you talk to them about, we’re not going to know. Rich Birch — Right. Tiffany Henning — So if you want to badmouth the pastor, whoever… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Tiffany Henning — …you know work through that on that, because I guarantee if they have issues they’re talking to someone. Rich Birch — Right. Tiffany Henning — So it’s probably someone you don’t want them to talk to. Rich Birch — Yes. Tiffany Henning — But back to the thing of everyone feeling the burnout, and if you don’t want to specifically pick people, say hey we’re going to roll out this new, you know, benefit and stuff, and we’re going to start requiring all our staff to go on a quarterly basis. Or every four months, or twice a year, or whatever, and we’re going to pay you to do that. So do it as a blanket statement because again the people that you know are stressed, or burned out, or headed down that road, for everyone you see like that there’s probably 10 more who are well on that road. Rich Birch — Right. Tiffany Henning — Um and so in fact, we just recently did a burnout webinar, and had a lot of resources including a checklist as well. I don’t know if you’re able to podcast to to have resources for them… Rich Birch — We’ll link to it. Absolutely. Tiffany Henning — …but I’ll I’ll give that to you so that you can have it because I think this would be something goodf or their staff to do. Because we we did a 3-part email series and in the history of our organization, that is the one email that got the most responses ever. People going, oh my gosh I didn’t realize I was until I checked off you know, 14 out of the 15 things. And so I think it’s that way with burnout – people don’t realize that they’re that way until they kind of step back, look at a checklist, and go oh wow – yeah, maybe I am. Rich Birch — Maybe I am that. Yeah well I’d love to get that. We’ll put that in the show notes. We’ll link to that in the show notes. So people could pick up that resource, watch the webinar – that would be fantastic. Tiffany Henning — Absolutely. Rich Birch — So so helpful. Like, friends, as you are seeing, Tiffany’s just a wealth of knowledge but then is so helpful, like just I just love how open she is to helping. I want to make sure that we point people to you, but before we get there, anything else you want to share? Any kind of last minute words just as we kind of shut down today’s episode? Tiffany Henning — So um, you know what, probably the the wrap-up thing I would say—especially because we’ve been talking a lot about staff; we’ve been talking a lot a lot about pay—that I really think of it as like you know, getting a car and taking care of a car, or paying for the oil changes paying, for the tune-ups. Yeah, it costs you along the way. But you are not going to have at 3 years the whole transition break down so, and have to replace that. And that’s what’s happening – we haven’t done oil changes with our staff. We haven’t because we haven’t had the time, and we haven’t had the money, and I totally understand that, but you have to step back and look at the full picture. The amount of time you’re going to spend and the amount of money you’re going to spend is going to be like 5 times than if you invested in that person to begin with. Rich Birch — I love it. So good. Love it, Tiffany. Listen friends, I want you to drop by hrministrysolutions.com – this is what I want you to do: go, scroll to the bottom, put in your your name, email address. Tiffany’s—I was saying this to her before—the the emails that that that they send are super helpful. I look at them all the time. It’s one of those ones I open. I’m like, hey let’s take a look. You’re always on topic. I feel like you’re reading my brain sometimes because you’re you know, hey what’s this question? I’m like I’ve been wondering that! And then their HR Ministry Solutions has got the answer for me. But um, is there any other place we want to send them online? So hrministrysolutions.com – anywhere else we want to send them online to kind of track with you guys? Tiffany Henning — No, I say, you know, just what you said – sign up for our newsletters. Ah, you know we have free 15 minute calls, whether you want to talk about our services, or just ask an HR question. I always say the first call’s free. So you know, take advantage of it. Ah, free is a very good price. So ah. Rich Birch — Yes, I’m glad you mentioned that because now that you’ve said it I want to point people to this. I think this is crazy. I’m like I think it’s amazing that you’ve opened yourself up, open the organization up to say hey, like we’ll we’ll get we’ll jump on any call 15 minutes answer a question or just get to know you better. Again, you could just get that you see that it’s a link on the top right hand corner. I know there’s a lot of executive pastors that would say free is a good price point. So um, why don’t you drop by there and and book one of those calls. You’ll get a chance to see the goodness that is HR Ministry Solutions. Appreciate you being here, Tiffany. Thanks for for being here and hope to have you on and ah, future episode again. Tiffany Henning — Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Rich.

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scot Longyear, the senior pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana, and guest host for the Worship Leader Probs podcast. Two years after the pandemic, church leaders are still trying to figure out where to go from here. It’s been a tough season to wrestle through with our staff teams, and one that’s been riddled with fear, anxiety, and discouragement. Listen in as Scot shares about addressing the cracks in our foundation and finding freedom from that internal anxiety. Talk about who you are now. // At the end of 2021, Scot’s staff decided that in the new year they would no longer talk about what they used to be before COVID, but focus on who they are now. Things have changed a lot from what they were two years ago and it can be hard to process all of this on a personal, and professional, and ministry level. Pay attention to where God has revealed the cracks in your foundation. Spend more time connecting with your staff as you move toward health.Transparency and vulnerability. // Everyone in ministry has struggled in some way since COVID made its appearance. For a leader there is a delicate balance between transparency and vulnerability. Your staff doesn’t have to be your primary counselors, but let them see that you also struggle like they do. It’s not uncommon to struggle with anxiety that comes from an imposter syndrome. Acknowledge that our thoughts make a huge difference; we want to be a people who think well.Connect with Jesus. // For Maryland Community Church’s staff, their connection with Jesus is number one. Scot says the staff is paid to do devotions because as followers of Christ we need to hear the truth, know the truth, and live out the truth. There are so many voices competing for our attention, from the culture around us to social media and other church leaders. Everyone has an opinion about how we should be doing things, and we have to make sure we are listening to the Holy Spirit in all of that.Key truths tied to scripture. // In Romans 12 Paul says we are transformed by the renewing of our minds. When our mind thinks differently, we act differently. Scot speaks key truth statements from scripture to himself when lies begin to stir up anxiety or doubt at vulnerable times. On Saturday nights before preaching on Sunday, Scot takes time to recognize any lies that are being lobbed at him by the enemy, take those thoughts captive, and replace them with scripture and his key truth statements. Actively allowing scripture to renew our minds is what strengthens us for our callings and helps us keep moving forward after so much discouragement and fear.DITCH Your Thinking. // Scot has a released a book called DITCH Your Thinking which talks about how the mind impacts the brain, and how our thoughts actually create neurological changes. In his book, Scot explores a proven system to help you identify negative thoughts, hand them to Christ, and watch Him transform your thinking, and your life. Determine, Identify, Truth, Capture, and Hand them over. // DITCH is an acronym – D stands for Determine the Emotion. There are eight primary emotions that we might find ourselves fighting and we have to identify which one we are facing. The letter I is Identify the Stronghold, which is a process where we dig into what we are feeling with “why” questions. Next we want to Truth that Stronghold, Capture the Lies, and finally Hand them to Jesus. Go through each of these steps to work through the problems you’re facing, renew your mind, and move forward in your faith. You can learn more about Scot and order his book at his website www.scotlongyear.com. You can also find out more about Maryland Community Church at www.mccth.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well hey, friends – welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in today. You know every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire and equip you and today is absolutely no exception. So super excited to have Scot Longyear with us. He’s the senior pastor of a church called Maryland Community Church with two campuses in Indiana not in Maryland which I’m sure creates sometimes a bit of a a fun conversation on the internet. He’s also author of a book that we’re going to get a chance to talk to, plus he’s a part of the Worship Leader Problems podcast, which if you’re not listening to you and you need to make sure you check them out. Ah, Scot, welcome to the show. Scot Longyear — Hey, thanks Rich. Just honored honor to be here. Rich Birch — So good. Um, it’ll be I’m looking forward to getting to know you a little bit better. Why don’t you tell us about Maryland kind of fill out the story a little bit – give us ah, kind of a snapshot of the church. Scot Longyear — Yeah, right. Well, you’re exactly right – like every time I talk to somebody outside of our region, you know, I have to lead with it’s Maryland Community Church and nowhere near the state of Maryland… Rich Birch — Yes. Scot Longyear — …because I have conversations with people like, hey how are things going in Maryland? I’m like I have no idea have zero idea so ah. Church started in 1925 literally in a one-room schoolhouse huddled around the fire. And so we have a great, in our region, Rich, this is ah just ah, a great history and really a strong brand and um, so yeah, we’ve like everybody else I mean we’ve navigated, you know coming up on 100 years here in a few years – big celebration that we’ll do. And so tons of history and often wonder if the people around you know they’re sitting around ah warming themselves around a fire in the middle of of winter in Indiana if they would get a picture of what’s going on now. Rich Birch — Wow. Scot Longyear — Um, yeah, some of them would probably be like that’s crazy; we’re walking out and some would be just they so enamored at what the Lord has done for so for so long. But yeah, it’s real interesting too because we are multi-site um – I would say a church of size in a city not of size and so that gives us some real ah, unique opportunities that we’re still trying to lean into. Rich Birch — And you’re currently two campuses. Are you looking at doing more down the road, or is that you know or who knows? Scot Longyear — Yeah, right. Rich Birch — You know don’t you reveal any secrets, but… Scot Longyear — We have honestly we’ve been on that track, Rich, because it makes sense. Where we are where where city proper is about 60,000 surrounding about 100,000 and so it gives us um, again, kind of a unique opportunity because big fish/small pond and we have folks that are driving driving in. So there’s about if you look on paper, there’s a we we eventually should be around 7 or 8 campuses of people we have driving into our city. What I’m wrestling with right now, because we’ve had on the books man here’s the next place that we’re going, and we’re launching up to that and it was you know, ah Paul in Acts when he’s going into I think it’s in Asia somewhere in Asia and the Holy Spirit would not let him go in. You know so we had that with one of our with one of our sites, and then we just were leaning in towards it towards another one and what I’m getting ready to reveal now to our leadership is feel like the Lord’s saying again I’m not going to let you in. Um, so we’re like we never want to get ahead and a step ahead of what the Lord is doing. And so it’s that whole Moses-thing, right? Like Lord if you’re not going with us then we don’t want to go. Rich Birch — Right. Scot Longyear — And so while we have ah plans and continual leaning that way and what I’ve told our staff is we’re gonna keep we’re gonna keep our our lamps full so when the lord is ready we’re ready to go in terms of finance and structure and all that. But I really think he’s, and this is this is super fresh that I’ve only shared with part of my leadership team is that, the Lord is really doing positioning us in our city to continue to work transformation in the place where we are. And we have a unique opportunity because we are a smaller place. Um, you know if we were if we were church our size and we were in you know metro Louisville or Chicago or even Toronto um we couldn’t even have a conversation like that because it’s just it’s just so massive… Rich Birch — Right. Scot Longyear — …and so man. Yeah, so that’s a big that’s a big like I think so, but I’m not real sure. We’re trying to determine what the Lord is doing… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Scot Longyear — … in in the middle of that. You know we’ve we’ve gone to camp two campuses very successfully from all that I talked to and all the research that I’ve done. Um, and my XP too is like number three is hard baby, like buckle up. It’s going to be tough. Rich Birch — Sure, yeah. Scot Longyear — So so yeah that’s kind of where we’re leaning. Rich Birch — That’s cool man – that’s exciting. Well I know this season, you know has been an interesting one. What’s that you know may you live in interesting times… Scot Longyear — Right. Rich Birch — You know, the last couple years have been – I remember you know we were joking beforehand where like want to talk a little bit about kind of where people’s heads are at around you know this season and even kind of… I’m not sure is it post covid intercovid I’m not sure where it is. Scot Longyear — Ah, yeah. Rich Birch — We started I remember back two years ago um you know we did a couple episodes and I remember thinking like ah, we’ll do two or three episodes about covid and then we’ll move back on and… Scot Longyear — Right. Rich Birch — …here we are two years later and we’re all still trying to figure it out, but it does seem like you know I want to talk about you as your leading your people, as you’re thinking about your team, and even the people in your church. It is a season that has been seasoned with fear, with anxiety, discouragement. Scot Longyear — Man, yeah. Rich Birch — It’s been a tough season for people to wrestle through. Ah, kind of walk us through that help us think that through – what is that look like for for for you, for people that you’ve run into, whether it’s your staff, or just even people in your church? What’s what’s that looking like for you these days? Scot Longyear — Yeah, you know, Rich, I um I think I’m um, um, maybe on the front end of trying to do you know a post-mortem on it, and so a few things that come to mind. Um you know obviously we’re I mean we’re we’re running. You know we’re trying to find a playbook on this thing and it just doesn’t exist. you know, so… Rich Birch — Sure. Scot Longyear — You know, ah we must have s slept through you know how to lead a pandemic 101 when we were being prepped for ministry Rich Birch — Yeah. Scot Longyear — …and so um, you know one thing that we did as a staff, we decided last at the end of last year we’re like look, when we come to ’22 we’re no longer going to talk about “well we used to be” and “what used to be” and and all this. And so when it when it clicked into ’22 we said, here’s the deal, this is the church we are, right? This is the church we are. And um, you know to be quite transparent, I was like I was like yeah, that’s cool. And then I looked at ah our pre-covid averages and our post covid averages and two things bothered me in that, Rich. Um one I found that I had a little bit more pride than I would have liked to admit, you know. Because I was like because when things are going good, you’re like man numbers don’t matter, babies. No, it’s all good. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Scot Longyear — But I found I sure liked to be I sure liked being ah, lead pastor of a church at 2500 more than I did a church of 1600. And so the Lord and I had to really knock around. And man I’m I’m still I’m still dealing with some of that I think in my soul, so it’s revealed some stuff in me. And then I think um I think also, man, it’s like I’ve just got um you know we’ve got a, for us in our context, I’ve got a thousand people that are in the wind, and I don’t know where they are, Rich. Like I I mean I know some of them are joining us online, and we’ve got great online stuff going and all that. And we’re still trying to, you know, dial in what is church, and what is not when it’s when it’s online, but my soul hurts for those people. I was sitting down with a guy who’s becoming a friend and just a fantastic pastor, Brady Boyd, out it in a New Life in Colorado Springs and I was sharing that with him. And he just looked at me and he’s like, Scot, they’re not coming back. And I’m like no man, no, no, no! And he’s like they been gone for twenty four months they’re not coming back. And so we’re trying to figure out how that how that mission field all works. But in the middle of that you know like we’re just taking beatings, right, when it comes to our leadership. And we’re taking beatings when it comes to our you know, how to process all this on a personal, and professional, and ministry level, and caring for our people. And you know, one mistake that I made is you know, we buckle down. We’re like okay, we’re gonna do this online thing and um, if I was going to rewind and do it over again, I would have I would probably have quadrupled the time that I normally spent connecting with my staff. Because when we regathered—and we have a healthy staff, man—but when we regathered, we were not healthy together. Because everybody’s on the edge, they’re looking for a dog to kick, and all of a sudden you’re making me mad, and I’m writing the narrative on this, and we had we had a lot of work we had to do when we came back together. Um you know and and some of it was and then I know, you know, I know you’re listeners are in agreement. You’re leading a staff and and especially your you’re upper level level staff, man, there’re they’re hunting dogs, and they’re ready to hunt, like let’s go. And when they’re pinned up, they can start nipping at each other… Rich Birch — That’s so true. Scot Longyear — …and so that just kind of created a whole ton of conversations for us, where we’re like all right, let’s sit down, what’s going on, here we go, and just fine. You know, it put everybody in just really not a great head space, and I’m I’m thinking too that it really… I don’t know that covid in all all of this season created a bunch of new stress and anxieties as much as it revealed some of the cracks that were already there. Rich Birch — Yeah, true. Scot Longyear — We could kind of just normally patch. You know I can patch this up with a day off, or with take a little sabbatical, you know, ah stretch here or whatever. But I think it it just kind of revealed what was already there. And and and I think the Lord’s kind of going to use that in some healthy ways as we patch that up and get even more healthy for the future. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I you know, I do think, you know, it’s it’s that difference between… I think we’ve all been telling ourselves, hey this is we’re going to stop rebuilding. This isn’t about “let’s rebuild to areas”. We want to build like let’s look to the future. That sounds great like that’s one of those like that sounds great, but there’s still a lot of stuff we’re dealing with. There’s still then Okay, how do we actually do that, and how do we process that? How do we kind of you know, get a certain amount of freedom from from all of that kind of internal anxiety? How are you coaching your team, your people through that? Scot Longyear — Right. Rich Birch — What has that looked like? How are you helping direct them from here’s this kind of negative space where I was maybe discouraged or filled with anxiety, to to a new normal that hopefully is filled with freedom, right? And is filled with you know the kind of life that we’re hoping our people will have. Scot Longyear — Yeah I think of a couple of things, Rich. I think as as a leader it’s a delicate balance between, you know, transparency and vulnerability and all that, and we you know one of our cores – we want to live with integrity um, but I want to realize that my staff, there are not also not my primary counselors. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Scot Longyear — But I also want to make sure that they they can identify, I’m like oh man, this guy’s struggling here as well, okay. And so just just last week with our staff as we were talking through some some different things, I was like let’s talk about let me talk about right now this whole idea of um, just the anxiety that you might be ah, rolling along in the imposter syndrome. You know anybody with imposter syndrome? And I was surprised you know even even later with some emails some some of my top level staff go, man, that’s the way I feel. And I’m like me too me too. And here’s how I’m wrestling through and I’m doing that. And then we also know too, man, that we are um, you know our thoughts make a huge difference. And so we want to be a people who think well. And so I just want to continue to encourage our staff. Man, we need to hear the truth, and know the truth, I live out the truth, and it’s got to be cemented into us. And so one of our our primary pushes is we’re continually having our staff, man, your connection time with Jesus is number one. Like I pay our staff to do devotions, which I think is the greatest job in the world, if you can get paid to do devotions. Because I want them listening to the truth of scripture and listening to the truth of the Holy Spirit. Because that truth really changes, because there are so many voices that are going on right now. Not only in how do we figure out church, but like everybody’s opinion in the world, from every single topic of of thousands of people who are now experts and want to tell you how to do your job, and I’m like who do I even listen to in the middle of that. Rich Birch — Sure. Rich Birch — Another piece of that, Rich, too is is figuring out, you know, your makeup. I think it’s really healthy for leaders to figure out, you know, what’s your enneagram, what are you on the DISC, what’s your personality profile – just to realize okay I’m going to navigate this a little bit differently than other people might. And it’s going to help my words as I form to somebody else’s it little bit bit different personality makeup and somebody as well. But man, it’s a it’s it’s a fight. I mean I’ve I’ve come closer to ah some um ah panic attacks, I would say, and fights with depression than I than I ever have in the past. Rich Birch — Right. Let’s let’s let’s loop back on that thinking piece, particularly. You know it’s the it’s as old as Romans 12… Scot Longyear — Yep. Rich Birch — …you know, like it’s amazing how ah, you know when we read scripture. There’s all kinds of times where it just jumps off the page. You’re like, man, this could be written for today, right? Scot Longyear — Yeah. Rich Birch — And that’s one of those passages. That’s just the front end there. How are we renewed? Like don’t be conformed to the pattern of this world but have our thinking renewed. How are you encouraging your people to be have the right thinking, to be aligned with what the Lord—I love that even just practical tip around you know, paying your staff to do devotions, I love that—but is there what else could we be thinking about as we think about kind of our our renewing our mind, staying focused on how we want how he wants us to think? Scot Longyear — Yeah I’ve just been enamored even even pre-covid with with that. Again, it’s exactly where you said it’s the Romans 12, you know, that we’re transformed by the renewal of our mind. And I’m like man Paul kind wrote anything there… Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm Scot Longyear — …you can say we’re transformed by prayer, by the movement of the Holy Spirit, by whatever, but it’s we’re transformed by the renewal of our mind; when our mind thinks differently, we think and act differently. Rich Birch — Right. Scot Longyear — And when I first was you know on the train, I’m like that’s new age, like I don’t know that’s a bunch of crazy… Rich Birch — Yes yep. Scot Longyear — …and as I hit some crisis points and dug down with my therapist, you know, she’s like you know you need some truth statements. and I’m like, that sounds nuts, until I started getting in on it… Rich Birch — Ah, yes. Scot Longyear — …You know and so I’m even I mean I was I was real intrigued… Dr Caroline Leaf is obviously just brilliant in in this area, and she she quoted a study that 12 minutes – they did a scientific study if we would pray for 12 minutes a day for eight weeks. So we pray 12 minutes a day for eight weeks, the neurological changes in our brain are so deep that it’s noticed on a brain scan. Rich Birch — Wow. Scot Longyear — So thinking literally changes the makeup of the brain, And so Rich, it’s it’s like the Apostle Paul was true. It’s like scriptures true that the truth really does change… Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Scot Longyear — …change us you know and so on a practical way for me for the first time in my life I’ve come up with here here are my true statements, and so Saturday night is a time is ah is a spin up time for my brain because Sundays comin’. And it’s just it’s a bunch of smoke and mirrors because I know that the pressure is coming, so it may be a pressure from a meeting that’s coming, it may be a pressure from whatever ah my mind tends to tends to go to just whatever—I’m like I mean even last night I’m like, okay I’m we’ll do a podcast with Rich, man how’s that gonna go, but and and Lord’s like well with stop being dumb, right? Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Scot Longyear — So how can I think differently about this and so I’ll come up with like I mean I got some key truth statements that I will tell myself that are based in scripture so that I know that they’re not Scot’s truth ideas – these are words written through the Holy Spirit, words from the Father that are true that I can hang on. So when the rest of the chatter is around, that’s gonna help me to to pattern. Plus I have to be man, we just have to be so careful of who and what we listen to… Rich Birch — That’s so true. Scot Longyear — …especially in a world where it’s I mean we can get this 24/7, like just not only news cycle but everybody’s voice, and it’s like I’m just not not convinced that that’s so healthy. Rich Birch — Right. No, that’s so true. You know that I think in in the long term I do think—and I’m not the first person to say this, lots of sociologists and you know thinkers, and pastors have been saying this for you know years now—that I think we’re going to look back 20 years from now, 10 years from now, maybe 5 years from now on the influence of social media in this season on our brains… Scot Longyear — Mmm-hmm. Rich Birch — …in the same way that we look back at cigarettes from like the 50s where, you know, you’ll see those pictures of like you know, 9 out of 10 doctors recommend Marlboro’s and you’re like – what? That’s crazy, right? The fact that we’ve just kind of adopted this, hey just open your brain and just let stuff constantly pour in. Scot Longyear — Yeah. Rich Birch — Um, let’s let’s dig down on true statements a little bit. I love help us know about the line there between, you know—and you you flagged it—kind of positive self-talk new agey like “you can do it” and “people love you” kind of statements. And let’s embed the truth of scripture and what God thinks in our lives. How do you, where do you find that line? What does that look like? How are you wrestling with that in your own life? Scot Longyear — Well, that’s a great question because, man, if you push this too far, then you’re pumping yourself up the entitled, like you know I’ve got this, you know it’s it’s all about me. You know I can do all things with Christ through Christ who strengthens me. Well let’s just take that out of context right? Rich Birch — Yes, yes, sure. Yes. Scot Longyear — So I want to make sure sure that I’m like pushing these things together like, Lord is this true? Is this what you say? You know so as I went through the hard work of like here are my true statements, every one of my truth statements would have a would have a scripture tied tied to them and so um. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Scot Longyear — One of my yeah, you know so one of my… So for me as a senior pastor, um primary communicator at our church, create content, all that kind of stuff, and I’m like man, I’ll say the wrong thing, you know what’s going to happen, and all that and so one of my truth statements is is for Sunday is um, something spiritual happens when I preach, as I join the Holy Spirit in his work. Rich Birch — That’s good. Scot Longyear — And I say to myself I wrote this Holy Spirit, that this sermon with the Holy Spirit, and I’m on to deliver it in partnership with him. And then my scripture out of that is Matthew 10:20 that says it will not be you speaking but the Spirit of the Father speaking through you. So I’m like here’s the truth I’m not alone in this; I’m joining the Holy Spirit in his work. And man when I say that to myself, I kind of kick my shoulders back a little bit, Rich, because I’m like I’m like let’s go. You’re gonna take me on now, devil. Like okay I’m speaking I’m joining with, I’m not alone in the middle of this. And then I’m like well is that really true? I’m like well Jesus says this in Matthew, and I you know I do think that that’s the voice of voice of the father in that. Um you know another one like I’ve got I’ve got a whole list that I I call my Saturday Night Confessions because those are the… Rich Birch — Yes. Scot Longyear — …you know that’s when when things start getting really really ah, charged up for me. Rich Birch — Yep. Um, and I have to think you know so one of me is is that my words literally change lives. Scot Longyear — Now, you could take that one of two ways. Like well so you better not screw it up, right? Rich Birch — Sure. Scot Longyear — But my words literally change lives. You know Romans 12 ah 10:17 is my scripture there – faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ. You know and so it’s like yes, I’m given this this great mantle, but like what I’m doing matters. And I think in one of the spin-ups that we get sometimes is like what you’re doing doesn’t really matter… Rich Birch — So true. Scot Longyear — …you know it’s just it’s inconsequential. And it’s like you know what it actually it actually does matter, and so I’m going to partner with the Lord in the middle of that. And I think some of the truth too are, you know, man I don’t know how I’m still learning how the brain works and everything, but there’s so much mental chatter that happens… Rich Birch — Yes. Scot Longyear — …and I’m like I’m talking to myself a lot. And then I’m like, is that normal, or am I cracking up? But what I find is that I have I have to have a filter to recognize, is this the voice of my father, or is this not the voice of my father? And so for me as things come in sometimes I’ll hear things and or sense things and I’m like um I’ll run that for a little bit, and then I’m like I’m like wait a minute. My father doesn’t talk like that. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Right. Yeah. Scot Longyear — It’s not something that my father would say, is that? I know him I know him pretty well and I’m getting to know him him more and more, and that’s not what he would say. So if that’s not what he wants to say, or is saying to me, then I have to dismiss that. I want to capture that thought I’m going to take that thought captive and say it doesn’t belong here, because I will only listen to the truth that comes from my father. That’s what I want to be built on. Rich Birch — Right. I Love that. Scot Longyear — That’s what I want to speak, speak on and I want that to come out of my heart. So, man much easier said than done. Rich Birch — Sure. Scot Longyear — But I really think the battle is fought and it is won or lost in our minds. Rich Birch — Yeah I love the practicality of what you’re saying. If I’m kind of catching what you’re saying – let me reflect this back to you. I love that you’ve done some work ahead of time to identify, here are you know some true statements, here are some things that I I need to remind myself… I need the Lord to remind me so I’m gonna do the work to kind of capture those, get those together and then I’m going to rehearse those thoughts even on, you know, like you’re saying on Saturday night as we’re kind of ramping up. And I know we’ve all had that. We all have that all the time the Saturday night oh my goodness it’s the middle of the night I’m lying awake staring at the ceiling. And thinking either either an odd thought or like worrying about a slide… Scot Longyear — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — …or like this you know is you know as a staff leader. It’s like… did we get that thing plugged for tomorrow. Um, and that can feel like just a giant distraction. I love that – what a great encouragement to ah your team. Are there other times, before we leave this this truth ah, you know statements idea here, are there other key times that you find yourself, hey I’ve got to make sure I kind of set some time aside to to reconnect with these truth statements? I love the Saturday night – that seems real clear. Are there any other times where you find yourself needing to do that regularly? Scot Longyear — Yeah, I’m probably don’t I’m probably not great at it because usually I’m waiting until I hit… Rich Birch — Sure. Yes. Scot Longyear — …hit something, so it’s like like maybe me a mild crisis to come back to it so I need to be proactive instead of instead of reactive. Rich Birch — Yeah. Scot Longyear — So I think that would be my like ah, do as I as I say not as I do. Like if you can make these a pattern… Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Scot Longyear — …of like here I am every every morning and I and I tell people, and here’s what I tell people but I still am not doing it as much as I want to. Like you get up in the morning, make your bed make up your bed, and make up your mind. And maybe you even make up your mind first… Rich Birch — Hmm that’s good. Scot Longyear — …as soon as you wake up. Like I’m making my of my mind and then I’m going to make up my bed which is that’s a whole like just getting to jump on the day. Rich Birch — Love it. Well I want to pivot and talk about your book. You’ve you’ve released this book called “Ditch Your Thinking” which is a great title. Um help us understand why did you write this book? Obviously this is kind of in the orbit of what we’re talking about, but kind of give us the the overview to help us think through this book and and you know, what what’s the message here. Scot Longyear — Yeah, I mean it just comes from what we have been what we’ve been talking about, and kind of just my personal story, and I’m like man if if I’m wrestling with you know, fear and anxiety and worry, I bet there are a lot of other people who have too. And I think what we’ve seen over the course of time is I don’t know if more people are wrestling with it or it’s just more socially acceptable to talk about, but it’s just it’s just rampant you know. And I think when you when you open up and you’re like man, I actually deal with this, people like oh wow, you too? And I’m like yes. Like we have to get a handle on this and so not from an expert level certainly starting out, but more from just like, man, so many of us are wrestling with this and I’m wrestling with this as well. Intrigued by the whole idea of how the brain changes. You know there’s there’s the there’s the mind and then there’s the brain. The mind is is our emotions and thoughts and then the brain the squishy material and how the mind actually impacts the brain and everything else. You know the whole study of neuroplasticity – that our thoughts can literally change our brain and sculpt it like it does a muscle. But then I’m like how do we practically get down on that? and so. Scot Longyear — That’s where DITCH comes from: D-I-T-C-H. So Let’s go old school preaching, right? Rich Birch — Love it. Scot Longyear — Each one of those stands for something different. So ditch is actually a system that I I literally use when those thoughts are coming in. And going like okay, this is not from the father but it’s still taking up residency in my brain and it needs to be dealt with. And so I’m going to run it through this framework DITCH, and come out through through the other side, hopefully with ah with ah you know a little bit of of strength and and listening to the truth of the father, and not just kind of the random whatever that’s that’s popping around. Rich Birch — Could you run through quickly—that I know it’s like this is the worst thing to ask an author—hey can you run through the DITCH quickly – just give us the overview I know you wrote 50,000 words on it but give us the give us the high level ,and then we’re gonna encourage people to pick it up. But give us the kind of high level there. Scot Longyear — Right. Yeah sure. Yeah, let me let me bust through it and then I’ll and I’ll drop down on on a couple what I think are are the keys in it. Rich Birch — Sure. Scot Longyear — D is you’ve got to Determine the emotion when something comes in. What’s the emotion? Is it anger? There’s there’s 8 ah primary emotions. I write about all 8 of those in the book, and ah, what’s what’s that emotion? So you’re laying awake ah in bed at night and you’re like that emotion is fear. That’s the emotion. So I’ve got to figure out first of all what I’m trying to fight – the emotion. Then I stands for Identify the Stronghold. Now a stronghold in scripture is sometimes something, you know, the Lord is my stronghold or my fortress, but there’s also a negative stronghold that typically is a lie. And so we’ve got to do some hard work to drill down on what that stronghold is, and so we’ve got to ask why? Why am I afraid? Well I’m afraid because um, we’ll get up in front of people. Okay, why are you afraid about getting up in front of people? Because I’m afraid I’m going to say the wrong thing. Why are you afraid that you’re gonna say the wrong thing? So for me when I drilled down on that to give you an example, Rich, um I’ll be ah I’m afraid that I’m gonna when I speak in front of people I’m gonna say the wrong thing. Why are you afraid to say the wrong thing? I’m afraid I’m say the wrong thing because I’m gonna look stupid. Okay, why is looking stupid bothering you? And if I drill down that long enough, I’ll get to the why of, well if I say the wrong thing people are not going to like me. Well why is it important that people like you? Because if they don’t like me then I’m not worth much. Rich Birch — They get more convicting, the more whys the more whys get more convicting. Scot Longyear — Exactly, exactly. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Scot Longyear — But if you do the hard work of whys and you get down on that, and… So that’s just one example, but for me as I drill down on that, then my stronghold is that my identity is tied to what you think of me. So if I’m not in a healthy place, we’ll end this in this podcast podcast, Rich, and I’ll be like man I blew it with that guy. He thinks I’m a moron this is gonna go out, these people are not gonna like me. Um I have no value. So my value is actually tied to your acceptance and that’s a complete lie, right? But that’s a stronghold that we’re in. So then I’m going to take once I find out what that Stronghold is, and it’s gonna be different depending on what emotion you’re dealing with, then I’m gonna put truth – that’s T. So D is Determined the Emotion. I as Identify the Stronghold. T is I’m going to Truth that Stronghold. So I’m gonna throw the truth of scripture on that. You know in my case I’m going to say I’m fearfully and wonderfully made. Like I’m a son, I’m a beloved son of the King. So I’m going to put truth on all that. But it doesn’t end there, Rich, because often we’ll put Truth on stuff. We’re like yeah I know the truth but um, it doesn’t seem to really be really be working because I got all these other residual thoughts that come in. Because the our enemy is just going to lob these thought thought grenades at us. So we’re going to capture those thoughts when they they come in. Rich Birch — Yes. Scot Longyear — We’re gonna Capture them and then H is we’re gonna Hand Them to Jesus. And here’s where—and I talk about this in the book—this is a great trick; I have yet to do it, but I have some friends who’ve done it .Um Craig Groeschel was teaching on on this once and said, here’s what you do – laying in bed at night, that’s when we get spun up and we’re like, man, here’s the anxiety that I have on your on your a nightstand next to your bed. You have some 3×5 cards and a pin and you’re just gonna write on there here’s what my here’s what I’m worried about: I’m worried about tomorrow with this staff thing, I’m worried about this conversation cause I’ve got to put a guy on a PIP or I gotta let him go, or I’ve got a whatever, so I’m worried about this – here’s my worry. Then you’re gonna get up from your bed and you’re gonna take that piece of paper or that 3×5 card that you’ve written on, you’re go to your kitchen where you’re gonna find a box that’s in your kitchen. That’s just a God box and you’re gonna physically say, I God um I’m giving this to you. So scripture says that we’re to cast our cares on him. Rich Birch — So good. Scot Longyear — God I’m casting my care on you. I’m putting it in the box; I’m leaving it there and I’m going back to bed. Now when you go back to bed, what’s gonna happen? You gonna spin up on something else. Oh it’s not this guy that I got had a tough conversation with. I’ve also got this that I that I have to do, now here’s another worry. I’m gonna write that down, again I’m gonna take it and when I’m gonna put it in the God box in the kitchen. I’m gonna go back – God I’m giving that to you; I’m gonna go back to bed. Now then if you’re laying there and you’re like oh man, okay I really am worried about that first thing that I wrote down. That meant that conversation that I’ve got to have with one of one of my people – it’s not going to be good. You’re worried about it again. Here’s what you do. Get your butt out of bed, go to the kitchen, pick up that card out of the box and say to the Lord: I’m taking this back because I don’t trust that you’re gonna take it. Now you’re gonna have to wrestle with the Lord on that, right? Rich Birch — Yes. Scot Longyear — And you go to end up putting it back. And I’ve had some friends that have done that and they’re like, wow this was incredibly freeing, because it really put a physical action on something that I was thinking. And so that’s the whole like we’re going to continue to hand it to Jesus in that. And and so for me as I hit some of this stuff I’m like okay, let’s go. Let’s go to work. I gotta to determine what this emotion is, I want to identify the stronghold, throw some truth on it, I’m gonna capture it, and hand it to Jesus. And it’s given me some handlebars to get the truth prevalent in my life so that I can stop listening to the lies, and I found that it actually changes everything, because again, Paul says in Romans chapter 12 that we’re transformed by the renewal of our mind. So this is just a whole practice of how how do we very practically renew our mind. Rich Birch — Love it. Of those steps, which one are you finding personally is the hardest step for you – that it’s like okay this is the piece that as a leader. I know in the books I’ve written it’s always like you write the book and there’s a part of it where you’re writing for yourself like, oh gosh this is the part I need. Or it’s same with preaching, right? Scot Longyear — Yep. Yep, yes. Rich Birch — I’m preaching this message for myself today. I don’t care – you all are going to listen in but this is for me. What part of this is the part that you find yourself wrestling with? Scot Longyear — You know, honestly, Rich, I think it’s probably the in the identifying the strongholds because some of them are easier than others. So there are probably some strongholds that are from family of origin, from some younger years, for some people it may be rooted in some abuse or neglect that really need to be drilled down in some professional counseling. And I feel like in my life there’s some that I’m like: I can’t there’s something there and I don’t know what it is that’s making me do do this um, and so that’s where I’ve got to just continue to do some really really hard work. Rich Birch — Love it. Oh this has been a fantastic conversation. I know when I ran into your book here, the thing that struck me is little two things. First of all, one I’m like this is would be a killer series at a church. Scot Longyear — Right. Rich Birch — I think this could be a fantastic like, hey you know that’s a great five-week conversation. A six-week conversation. Maybe you know, be great to give the book to everybody – that kind of thing. And then the other thing I was struck by was, hey this would be a great team, you know, like a weekend retreat or two day overnight kind of like hey, we’re going to read this and then process these things together in a safe environment. How have you seen people use this resource in a way that’s been surprising or encouraging? You’re like hey it’s kind of fun to see ah, you know this book has has had this kind of impact. Scot Longyear — Yeah, it has been and I I designed it um, you know, for small groups. I didn’t design it for small groups but but made it so that you could use it for small groups, with small group questions and that in it. And I was kind of surprised because I’m always you know just to be completely transparent like as a pastor, you know, you release a book and I don’t want it to seem like manipulating, like we’re going to do a series on the book. Everybody go buy my book. You know because people are like, wow you’re getting rich. And you and I you and I both know that that very few authors are are banking, right? Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, that’s not what happens. Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. Scot Longyear — Um, but ah, but when I was getting ready to release the book a few of my key staff came to me and they said you’re not going to like this. But we really think you need to do this as a series. And I said okay and um and I did take it on the chin a little bit to be honest with you from from some folks, but I felt like the the content was was just going to be so helpful and so we did an entire series on the book in our small groups. We said if you want to go through this as a small group, you’re certainly welcome to do that. And so so that’s been that’s been good and some good feedback from people going like, man kind of again like the you too, and there’s there’s hope like here’s some handlebars that I can put around this, because I think people like I wrestle with this but I don’t know what to do and do do I go to counseling and and I don’t know or maybe I have but but yeah, I’m still having some hangups on that. And so I’ve been really excited to see some some folks who I believe are getting some freedom because again, not because the the book is just amazing amazing, but it push pushes you to the truth and some of those some of those tools that we just needed. Rich Birch — Love it. Well if people want to pick up a copy or 10 where do we want to send them send them – to your website scotlongyear.com – that’s with one T. Are there other places we want to send them to to you know, pick up a copy? Scot Longyear — No, that’s the primary place. Ah, that’s there, and so if you’re if you’re looking at ordering bulk um, just reach out to us just scot@scotlongyear.com and we can give you some some pricing and and all that kind of stuff. We tried to make it accessible for everybody in terms of price and shipping and everything. And then and then also with some groups if you’re like, man, could you customize this for us, I’d be happy to you know do some video work for you and and record that to try to get try to get some more people on board. Rich Birch — Love it. Scot Longyear — But yep scotlongyear.com would be the place where all that resides. Rich Birch — This has been so fantastic. Scot, super helpful today – I’ve been taking notes here. Stuff I’m wrestling with him in my own life. I’m like my this has been some good practices, some things I should be thinking about so I really appreciate that. Where do we want to send people or anywhere else if we want to but track with the church or you know anywhere else where where should we send them online? Scot Longyear — Yeah Maryland Community Church um you can get ah just a kind of little peek into to what we’re doing there and then I also ah you know do a lot of work like you mentioned with um Worship Leader Probs – just some phenomenal things are are going there. And then in terms of ah, worship leaders and and leadership, I’m also involved with a conference called the experience conference which happens once a year at Disney, of all places, in Florida and so if you’re ah you find yourself in a realm of production or worship leading, I would encourage you check that out that’s experienceconference.com. Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Scot – appreciate you being here. Thanks for being on the show today. Scot Longyear — Thank you.

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jay Kranda, the online pastor of Saddleback Church in California. Digital ministry is here to stay and churches need to think about how to move beyond just managing their weekend stream to actually connecting people online to the church and each other. Listen in as Jay Kranda shares how to focus on closing the back door of your church online experience rather than focusing on having a huge front door with a lot of subscribers. Define your wins. // Saddleback has moved away from the term online campus to embrace online community instead. This is an important shift because of how they define their wins when it comes to digital ministry. Digital ministry can look very different from one church to another based on a church’s objectives and strategy. The main objective for the online community team at Saddleback is to provide church for people that live thirty miles away from one of their physical locations. More than streaming services. // Jay is commonly asked how there are so many people who engage with the church from far away. Aside from the fact that Saddleback is a well known church around the world, Jay has been developing systems and teams for ten years now and so he has built the online community to be more than just watching streams of the service. Just as physical church is more than a building, don’t limit church online to merely watching a service on YouTube. Take time to begin developing more robust systems, people, and teams to support an online community.Meeting spaces online. // Create a Facebook group where you can interact with each other like a community of churchgoers would in a physical space. You might not see each other in person because you live in different states or countries, but you can still be a community online and create connection. Work on developing and investing in a community here week after week and you will begin to see a return over time.Focus on smaller events and connections. // Don’t worry about the big streaming numbers when creating a place for online viewers to interact. Focus on small events and one-on-one Zooms that allow you to offer pastoral care and develop people. Offer online classes for things such as membership. Host some kind of monthly or quarterly 45 minute Zoom where you talk to new people about how to engage with the church and answer their questions. Many people are not walking through a church’s doors anymore, and they want to figure out who you are before they visit in person.How far you reach. // When deciding how to staff for church online, first take a look at your online audience. How many people watch services on each platform? Run a report on how many people are within an hour drive of your church and how many are outside that. Over the last two years, how many have given to your church that live an hour away? That will help you determine how to invest in your strategy and if this is a local outreach, a farther away, or a hybrid. Jay recommends that most churches think locally.Hire a team. // Too much of the online pastor or director’s time has been focused on just project managing the weekend stream. Have a media team that can help with this part to allow the online pastor to be a pastor and connect with the online audience. Make sure to cast vision for the online pastor and define the win. An example of a win for a local audience would be to connect the digital to the physical and be thinking about how to move people from online to an actual physical location. Connect your win to your church’s strategy.Keep the online groups healthy. // One of the big game-changers for Saddleback’s online team was to move people into online groups and begin connecting them with each other. To keep groups healthy, Saddleback has certain requirements that have to be met. One of the goals is for every leader of online groups to become a member of the church and go through the online class within the first 60 days. You can create an online group and invite your friends, but Saddleback won’t plug new people into your group if you’re not a member of the church, and agreeing to their covenant. They also make sure the group leaders are regularly talking to them, and that they take an online leadership training class for groups.Double your focus. // Evaluate how many hours a week you spend thinking about your digital ministry and aim to double it this year. Recruit people from your church who are skilled in this area whether they are coders, marketing strategists, or have a large social media following. Hold a digital summit event at your church, cast vision, and find talent at your church that can help you double down on digital ministry.Go beyond streaming. // Jay has a free download, Online Church: How to Go Beyond Streaming Service to Bringing People into the Body. This download helps people think about how to structure their online church and get beyond just streaming services. You can connect with Jay at www.jaykranda.com and find a free digital mini-course on how to think about digital ministry. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well hey, friends welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have tuned in. Super excited for today. Ah, you know every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire and equip you; today’s no exception. Super excited to have Jay Kranda on. So Jay is one of those people – so we’re almost 600 episodes in and for years I’ve had a list of like people I want to have on and Jay is on that list right near the top. So super excited to have him with us. He is, if you don’t know, he’s the online campus pastor of a little church in Southern California that’s been around for a few years called Saddleback. Ah, was planted by Rick and Kay Warren; their first public service was in 1980. They currently have 14 locations—if I’m counting right—in California, a Chinese venue, 4 locations internationally, and a really robust online community, hundreds—I think close to a thousand—online groups. So many good things, and listen, it is the thing that’s great about ah Jay, he really is such an expert in this area and so generous around church online. Jay, welcome – so glad that you’re here. Jay Kranda — Thanks for having me. Yeah, it’s you know it’s funny like when you say the location number, I don’t even keep up with how many we’re at, so I’m like trying to like I’m like I think that’s right. It sounds like you’re on our website right now and that sounds correct. Yes. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, we pulled that off – did a little research there. You know it’s true. I there is ah so The Meeting House a church I was at in Toronto for years, they precovid it had 21 campuses. And there’s somewhere around 6 or 7, when you get beyond that you’re like I just stop counting. There’s just there’s a lot of them, you know. So that’s ah, that’s so good. We’ll fill out the picture for us – kind of give us a bit of the Jay story. Tell us you know how do you fit into the overall, you know matrix there. You kind of talk us through that a little bit. Jay Kranda — Yeah, so I I started at this church you know right out of actually the last year of college. And I started on our communications team, and I kind of came from a church of about 500, interned at Saddleback. So I’m the you know the glory story of starting as an intern and getting a job and being here for a long time, you know? Rich Birch — Still there. Still on that internship. Jay Kranda — Um I know. Still there. I know out of an end… I know still on the internship. It’s you know I you know I get free rent, I guess… No um, but you know I was like the classic guy who just kind of came to faith in high school and wanted to serve the church. And one of the interesting things was when I started they had this little thing called the internet campus about 12/13 years ago that they had somebody had started, but hadn’t really nobody was developing it. And fortunately, somebody at my church—one of our elders—connected me to a couple other churches, like Life Church and so forth, about thirteen years ago. And I just got really excited and and I I really one of the things that got me pumped was you know as somebody who had kind of only known smaller church contexts, I couldn’t believe they had like 500 plus people watching, and nobody was doing anything. I was just kind of you know, like my my mind that was you know, like I was in a youth ministry where we had like 80 kids. And we did a lot to get those eighty kids there. Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah. Jay Kranda — And so when they said like oh 500 people are watching this stream every week… Rich Birch — Yes. Jay Kranda — …and I was just talking to somebody else about this – I remember in college… I’m trying to remember when it was—like 2007/2008—I remember I would watch, every once a while my like one my first my first computer that was like my computer was this like Toshiba deal, and I remember I would watch Louie Giglio’s like Wednesday or Thursday night college ministry. It was like 720 or something? Rich Birch — Yes yes yep 722 I think it was called? Jay Kranda — I don’t know if you remember this thing. is that I remember that was like the first stream that I ever like church stream like I watched. Rich Birch — Yes, wow. Wow. Yes. Jay Kranda — And I just couldn’t believe I was watching this thing in California… Rich Birch — Right mind bent, mind blowing. Yes. Jay Kranda — …that was happening like I think in Atlanta, and and it was just… so my brain when they told me about this, I was like I just remember I was impacted by that stream and it kind of started to unlock… Rich Birch — There’s something here. Jay Kranda — …like wow we could like do something here. It wasn’t that you know I didn’t know what I know now, but I just was really excited about that. And then yeah, just over the years we started to invest and then obviously of course covid hits and you know online stops being the side thing and becomes like the thing. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Jay Kranda — And now we’re in a season of okay, great now that we’re back in person, you know what is the structure? And so one of the biggest things we’ve done um over the last couple years has been we really moved away from online campus to online community. And we’re really trying to divide up what are the real wins? And so really like one of the things I… what happened during covid, I jokingly tell people now I reported to three different people through covid because we kept trying to do like the musical chairs, like does this work does this work? Does this work? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Jay Kranda — And um and I remember just we were having, I just we as a church kept having a lot of honest conversations about you know, yeah I always tell people that digital is is kind of like a multiverse like there’s so many ways that you could make this a win. So don’t lock in too quick too early just be very honest because I think what what it looks like for your church might look different from mine based off of your objectives and and your strategy. And so we really landed in on this idea that you know, my my and my team’s main objective is it is to provide church for people that live thirty miles away from one of our physical locations. And so if you were to draw a map out, everything around a 30 mile radius – even our internationals, everything within that goes to them, and everything outside is kind of unclaimed territory. It’s kind of I jokingly call it now like the it’s kind of like the west if you look at you know the United States and like everything west was just like no man’s land, like that would be our territory. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Jay Kranda — So if you fall within that territory technically I’m your first contact. Our team is your first contact… Rich Birch — Yes. Jay Kranda — …and we’re the ones that will help either get you into another church, or you can engage with us. And so and then we started to launch, recently, more robust ways for to start church in your home, and so… And then if you live local, that’s where my team you know, kind of plays as a job as as kind of helping you figure out digital wins. We do play a little bit of a role helping our church figuring out digital. It’s a very minor role. It’s kind of more ad hoc projects. But I think that’s been the biggest change is just solidifying that and trying to figure out—I’m not gonna say like we know it exactly it’s It’s a little bit still of ah of a foggy mess, but I feel like I feel like we’re a little bit more clear. Rich Birch — Yeah, okay I love that. I love that insight around the 30 miles piece. Ah you know we started doing church online in 2009, ao so like a few years after you know you guys have done that, and then obviously all of us ended up, whether we were into church online or not, in 2020 it was like: here it is! We’re you know we’re doing it now. And I think a lot of us are thinking about that question. I’d love to dive into that a little bit deeper. You know how should we, or where are you at I guess is probably a better question where are you add on really trying to to to divide those lines? I like the thirty mile thing. I also—just subtext, Jay—I know you feel this pressure, you know the entire team at Saddleback, they’ve got I don’t know what would be in the thirty mile radius there’s probably 50 million people maybe 45 million people. Jay and your team you’ve got 7 billion – you go for it. You can you know reach… Jay Kranda — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — …Reach the rest of the world… Jay Kranda — Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s that’s true. Yeah, that. Rich Birch — …outside of you know 30 miles. So hopeful hopefully you’re being resourced well enough for to reach the seven billion. So but ah talk to us a little bit more about that. I love this idea of that kind of thirty mile line. What what led you to that? Because I think a lot of us are struggling with that – how do we integrate this into, you know, it was like for a while there we were offline/online; now we’re trying to do both. How does all that fit together? Work us through that in in your thinking – how that’s how that’s impacting you at Saddleback today. Jay Kranda — Yeah I think you know—and and this is a common thing that I’ll be asked—like they’re like oh how do you have or like how does your church have so many people that engage with you far away? And and and I will say, obviously it’s because of who our pastor is, our church. Rich Birch — Sure. Jay Kranda — You know those are the default things. The other thing is is that I’ve been in the online pastor for you know about 10 years. I’ve had a long time to develop systems, and people, and teams… Rich Birch — That’s good. Jay Kranda — …and there’s really I’ve I’ve invested in a long time. And I always tell people that usually there’s something around, like they go like: we just have a bunch of people watching on our stream, but nothing else. And I always remind them, do you have anything else? Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Jay Kranda — Like like normally they’re just streaming their services, and there’s nothing. I go that’s like saying like you’re arguing about what church is and all you have is a building and you meet once a week. Like we know church is not… Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda — …that’s that. I was I was just ah I’ve been reading this book by Doug Es ah Douglas Estes the last couple days about SimChurch. It’s kind of an OG church online book from 2009, and and he talks about like the origin of of the the German word church is like literally like more building. But if you actually look at the biblical word, you know it’s obviously more of an assembly or a gathering of people, and sometimes we still lean heavy towards that German English… Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda — …you know, kind of root than the actual like ah Greek root. And um, so I think for us a lot of what we are trying to do is that we do have an objective where we want to provide church for people so we take that word seriously. So we look at our Ministry philosophy, our methodology, and we’re like okay, like okay here’s a and and usually it’s really best to go, OK, so how do you do this locally? Well we have a worship building for worship. Great. Okay, so we have that online. Okay, how do we do groups? Well, we need to build a resource groups where we’re not in the business of mailing and doing all this stuff. Okay, how do they connect with each other? I think that’s one of the biggest things that people underplay because it’s hard to invest in it. Rich Birch — So good. Jay Kranda — It’s a little bit of like come and see, that like church like when I go to church like me and my family when we go to church, we go to Saturday nights typically, because I hate getting up in the morning. And that’s the worst. Like that was something in seminary I should have been a red flag as a pastor like like I don’t. Rich Birch — I don’t like getting up particularly on the weekends early. Jay Kranda — Yeah, on the weekend like I don’t like getting up like to be at church at 9am on Sunday morning does not sound fun to me… Rich Birch — Yes, love it. Jay Kranda — …so I’m so glad my church has a Saturday night service… Rich Birch — Yes. Jay Kranda — …and then I just schedule my team to be there on Sunday if if I have to be there, but just kidding. Rich Birch — Yes. Jay Kranda — Kind of. So the but like like for example, like Facebook groups was a game changer for us because it allowed us to create a, I call it like a patio, where you could run in and talk to people. Because I don’t have the luxury of running in and talking to my people typically… Rich Birch — Right, yeah. Jay Kranda — Very rarely do I see somebody who’s part of my community. I might see local people who recognize me or know me, but they’re part of our Lake Forest campus or our San Diego campus. Rich Birch — Right, right. Jay Kranda — I remember I got to visit our um, our campus in in the Philippines in Santa Rosa and I remember like people knew me because they they’re in but they’re part of Santa Rosa they’re part… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Jay Kranda — …they’re in the our Philip Philippines campus and so but I don’t get to run into the person who’s part of our community that lives in Toronto, or lives in Winnipeg… Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda — …or lives in Florida or wherever, so our our Facebook group was that became our space and we have about like 9000 people that are in our Facebook group and we treat it like a patio… Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Jay Kranda — …or the backroom of our church where hey, if you want to, and I tell people introduce yourself. And but was hard about that is you’re you’re expecting like okay, let’s say you got 10,000 people watching your stream and only 500 engage in your Facebook group, and that dropoff sometimes for people is like well how do I make that more? Well you gotta develop it. You gotta to invest in it. And and I always say don’t worry about the big number anymore, like the the key is like I call it like habit stacking kind of like how James Clear would say is: Can you get on a, can you create small events and one-on-one Zooms, and just the goal is to meet with 5 people a week on a Zoom… Rich Birch — Right. Dude. Jay Kranda — …and if you stack that over a course of 52 weeks it starts to actually be real church. Rich Birch — Yes. Dude, I love this. Jay Kranda — Because don’t worry about the big streams. Like think people get so wrapped up because they want to be in you know, like an Elevation or whoever, Life Church, like big… Like they’re killing it as evangelism like that’s what they’re doing, but like I get more excited about like the pastoral like developing people, but the only way you do that is you gotta have the coffees and for us that’s just Zooms. And and the other thing is if you start meeting with people one on one and like for example, we have classes. We teach our classes every month. We teach that every month on Zoom. And we have we have 3 classes right now, and we teach we probably only get like probably 40 people a month in our classes right now. Rich Birch — Right, right, right, right. Jay Kranda — But here’s the deal, like so if you might go, we might have let’s say 50,000 view our service in a week and only 40 people in a Zoom a month. But if I’ve been you know we’ve been doing classes for 4 years. Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda — That starts to accumulate it builds momentum… Rich Birch — Yes, builds momentum dude I love this… Jay Kranda — …and helping people. Yeah. Rich Birch — Ah dude I love – your pushing us here in such the right direction and I want to dig into this a little bit more. So much of us… there was that phase in early covid—and I rolled my eyes at the time, so I hate to say I told you so—but I rolled my eyes at the time where like everybody was trying to figure out the stream number – they were like well you take the total number of streams and you multiply it by 1.7, and good friend of mine, Carey Nieuwhof, he was saying that, and then I was like dude come on, you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Jay Kranda — Yeah. Rich Birch — Ah what should we be focusing on though – kind of you were hinting at some measurement stuff there. What are some of the things that we should be measuring on the community side? What are the things that yet you look at and say ooh we are actually moving forward in getting people. I love that 40 people in you know are your classes. What are some of those things that you think you kind of recommend to churches? Jay Kranda — Yeah, so if if I was – and and again and and I think this is where philosophically depending you know there’s kind of a local church that’s just doing digital… Rich Birch — Yep. Jay Kranda — …and then there’s like a church that is wanting to maybe build out way more for people that to engage from anywhere. And those are two different approaches. Both are really good strategies… Rich Birch — Sure. Jay Kranda — …and but I think for for anybody who’s doing online I think even for the local church who’s just trying to do digital, right? I would say so many people are just not walking through your doors anymore, and they want to figure out who you are, and your stream is one way for them to discover who you are, but they want something more robust. And so I honestly—and I know I’m coming from a like you know anybody listening in this that knows Purpose Driven will go like well yeah, you’re gonna say that because you’re a Purpose Driven guy… Rich Birch — Yes, yeah. Jay Kranda — …but which I I get – I do bleed that, but I think anybody online who really wants to take digital serious should consider hosting some kind of either monthly or quarterly like 45 minute zoom where you just talk about how to engage with you. And again, you don’t need to do it monthly based off of time and focus, but like especially online pastors like if I didn’t have class 101, which is our membership class, I would call it something else. Rich Birch — Yes. Jay Kranda — And I would just be like hey, like for example, when I was a high school like pastor early on and I was actually shadowing my high school pastor, so I was like high school pastor and training. My pastor would do this dinner for 12 thing and he would get together every month new high school students and he would have dinner – he would have lunch at his house and it was a chance to interact with the pastor and his family. And then also he would bring student leaders like me and we would hang out. And it was like an informal time to get to know. And I think you need to have that online because what it is, is it’s a chance for for a new person so you get to say, hey if you’re part of our online community, you’re not sure where to engage, come to this Zoom on this date. It’s 45 minutes; we’ll answer your questions. And then I would just share a little bit about the church, here’s how to engage and then have Q and A. I would do something like that and then so I would measure, OK, great, this is how many people watch our service, but how many people are in that new Zoom type of class every month? Rich Birch — Love it. Jay Kranda — And and then I would I would measure how many people are active in a group? How many people are in like a Facebook community space? And then I would look at giving – giving for people beyond thirty miles. Because honestly like I I you know not to like make promises to people when you invest in this, but like our giving is substantial… Rich Birch — Sure. Jay Kranda — …and it’s not because of me, it’s because we’re actually maturing people. Like your I mean like it’s through… Rich Birch —Yeah, they’re taking steps closer to Christ and generosity is a part of that. Yeah, absolutely. Jay Kranda — Yeah, yeah, they’re watching. They’re part of groups. They’ve taken classes, and out of that—now it didn’t it wasn’t like day one—but out of that people started to give, and you start to multiply that. So I think that there is through… now I think what a church has to figure out is you know what is the digital strategy if I’m a church of like 150 and I’m pulling off physical services. I would still say hey that membership class that you’re doing or that class you’re doing maybe once a quarter you do a Zoom for people, you know what I mean? Maybe not every month but you still host it in person every month. I think those are the tensions because people like me are structured very differently and so that’s where you have to figure out what does success look like? I just think people… I always I always go back to the like the Peloton example of like if you go on Peloton’s website um before I buy the bike I can take a free training class to see what they’re about. Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda — And I think a lot of people in the church like new people want to see what you’re about. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Jay Kranda — And the only thing we offer them a glimpse into our church is a worship service which unfortunately is not always the best first entry… Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda —…because it’s assuming a lot. It’s assuming you know, certain things you know when to stand ,sit up, sit down. You know why am I worshiping about this blood song? You know what is this message? What you know, what what is where… Like you have other entry ways into your church like a membership class or something that’s a better first introduction. Is there a way to make that on demand? Is the way to make that a Zoom? You know stuff like that I would think about and then measure that. Rich Birch — Love it. And and so this is one of those things I’ve been talking about you behind your back for years when people ask me about online and groups particularly, I always say well you follow whatever Jay does because it’s like you guys are actually doing this. You’re actually moving people into community. I want to come back to the group thing in a second, but I want to kind of pose pose to you like a theoretical question. Let’s assume I’m a executive pastor of a church of a thousand people and we’re trying to we’re we’re we’re not just like begrudgingly doing church online – we’re like we really want to do this. We want to take some steps. What should I be thinking about from like a staffing structure point of view? Like help us translate that so it’s not a church of a couple hundred. It’s a church of a thousand. I’m thinking I want to hire some people. I’ve got you know the youth guy who for the last two years has been doing church online. And um, do I move him out and say yeah, you should do that full time? What should I be thinking about from a staff structure point of view? Jay Kranda — Yeah, so I would first just at a high level I would run ah like a report in your system… Rich Birch — Okay. Jay Kranda — …of like how many people like how many people who are watching you every week on your church online platform website, Youtube, everything – how many people are within a hour drive of your church, and how many people are outside? Just kind of get a lay of the land of kind of your audience. The other thing is try to figure out over the last two years how many people have given to your church that live an hour away from your church. Like just cause that will be a motivator. I will say for most people that’s like oh wow, like it’s either wow one way or wow the other way. So one thing cause I think that determines how to invest in the strategy. Rich Birch — Yep. Jay Kranda — Is this a local strategy or is this a far away or is it a hybrid? Um and I do think most churches should think locally, like think local local digital lens. I I don’t think strategies like ours make sense for everybody. I think that’s that’s the focus. Now on the structure staffing I I think I definitely think you should be thinking about providing a ah provide some vision for that online pastor or that online director. And I do think at a church of a thousand plus should be thinking about making that full time. And but the key here is you gotta what are what is the win, and I think too much of their time has been focused on just project managing the weekend streams. Rich Birch — So true. Jay Kranda — And and as a as much as that’s important, you do need a point person to coordinate make that better. Like for example, like at our church, one of the things we’ve done a lot of since we’ve gone back to media in person is we’ve gone back, we’ve really taken live hosting very seriously, and and it does; it takes a lot of work. Um and like at a church our size a lot of coordination with our worship team and technical teams. And and we do we we live stream our our largest campus, our Lake Forest, and then all we do is we go live 3 minutes before and it’s a chance for the online team to talk and we do present it like, hey we’re hanging out at Lake Forest, but we’re talking to you online. Hey if you live local, you know, come here. And so so there’s coordination even on that strategy. But I think the larger win would be how do you make them, how do you make a local person, ultimately, how do you make their digital experience better to coming in person? So for example, one of the things you could work on is… I was talking to this church in Dallas that does this, where like their online person they schedule like a meet and greet once a month where, hey by the way if you’re—and they had one location so this was a little simpler… Rich Birch — Easier to do, yeah. Jay Kranda — …so but it was like—hey you know as the online pastor I would love to meet you here at my church so at the end of March after the 11:00 service I’m gonna be in the in the back of of our church – let’s meet. And that’s connecting like you’re digital to your local, and being very clear about what the wins are. And so they’re not just thinking about coordinate the stream they’re thinking, how do I move people online in to the actual physical. So they’re planning that but that takes somebody a lot of… like like for example, one of the things I’m trying to do is I’m trying to coordinate with different different campus pastors at our church, and I’m trying to do every month have a different campus pastor co-host with me, so I get to promote their location. But that takes—and I think this is where I would encourage a ah an executive pastor or senior pastor—kind of give creative scope to your your online pastor, not just to host this thing, but to actually how does it connect to your church’s strategy. So for example, my church is about our locations. Like I know that. And so I’m like hey, what if I, and so I’m thinking what if I cohost and I just bring in a different location once a month. Rich Birch — So good. Jay Kranda — And that promotes it. The other thing is you know what what are better integrations experience. So ah, the last thing is like we launched this Plan a Visit experience recently which is a total beta new thing where. I wanted, instead of just going to slash locations and picking and showing up, I wanted them to actually plan a visit and I wanted, we wanted it to be we were talking as a church we wanted to be text-based where you’re actually texting with somebody at that campus. So it’s more personal. So launching that. And so like hey, focus in on making this experience better. What are the features and the things, because we didn’t have a good call to action from the weekend, I felt like. Because I hated saying, hey come to our church – just go to saddleback.com/locations.Now I get to say, hey come to our church go to saddleback.com/planavisit which was way more clear. But those are the things that I think with staffing and structure you do gotta figure out, do you want it to be a campus, or more an extension of your local? Um I think campuses are okay. I like the extension of local. This is why we lean into community – our online community because community means the diffusion of our local and are online. And I don’t—I’ve struggled and I know some would disagree with me on this—I think online campus communicates the wrong value. I think it communicates that you want them to stay online, and that might be your church’s strategy, which you know, that’s okay. I think that there are expressions of that that can look more sound. For us, we ultimately want them, even online, to be doing person in doing their expression of church in-person. So, for example, if you live far away, at the end of our funnel is that you’re starting a group in your home and you’re watching the services physically. That’s our strategy. So I Think if if you’re not in on that win of people staying online, I would really consider going away from online campus, personally, but but that’s a larger debate to be had. Rich Birch — Yeah, there’s ah, there’s a lot there for sure in that conversation. Um I love – let’s talk about that funnel. Let’s talk about moving people towards groups. Um, you know I think this is an area where Saddleback you for years have led. You know, recently over the last say four or five years I’ve loved watching so many churches get fired up about Growth Track, you know out of Church of the Highlands. Jay Kranda — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — And you know, ah my my running joke is a person who’s you know, almost three decades in ministry I’m like yeah, like that’s called 101, 201 like you know, Saddleback’s been doing that for years. And so it’s not surprising to me that it works because we’ve seen you know, just a real you know, I love that so fantastic, but so I I think people people who are listening in have a sense of whether it’s run the bases or whether it’s Growth Track, moving people from weekend to a you know, some sort of experience that lets people know, you know, engages them in their faith. But how are you moving them to then actually saying okay I want to lead say a Zoom group and then ultimately maybe to leading an in-person group with friends. Can you kind of talk us through what that looks like? I know there’s a ton there – we could talk for hours on that. But give us kind of the overview on that piece. Jay Kranda — Yeah, and you know obviously before that there was catechism. Rich Birch — Yes, exactly. I yeah I understand that yeah, it’s exactly exactly. Jay Kranda — So so so so you know it’s funny like these things are you know again, whatever you call it, I just think you got to have a another venue or another space. I usually I ah, used to talk about this as like you kind of have your large group experiences which is your worship services, then you have your medium experiences, which might be like you know your family center or your patio, your church, then you have you’re small, which is like you know in ah in a room, or maybe over coffee. And the question is how do you do that online when you need different rhythms and you need different spaces to kind of facilitate that. So yeah, so for us, you know it’s funny when we first started doing this I was I was just a small group’s pastor, and I would jokingly say I would jokingly say that I was just kind of like an affinity leader at my church where we had our women’s director, our men’s director and then we had like the online director… Rich Birch — Yes, yes yeah. Jay Kranda — …and my job was just to make sure the streams work and just whatever that entailed like and then I was over all of our online only groups and I was just I just kind of was a venue at our church early on. And I literally reported to our small group’s pastor at our church and over time as we started to expand that I think what I’ve really learned is that if I could get somebody online in a group with other people, their care is way more sustainable and healthy. So like for example, my team is not huge but I have I have a team of of 4, and 3 of them are small group pastors… Rich Birch — Right. Okay, love it. Jay Kranda — …and essentially 80% of their job is to make sure our groups are healthy. So each of them have about 500 or so groups. And so most of their job is just to contact those groups every month… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Jay Kranda — …and just build that team. Because pretty much like like I have our worship service, but I will say at scale, our worship service is very easy to manage at scale. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Jay Kranda — Like it’s not the same like to think that to have ten plus thousand people watch to think that’s the same as one of our local campuses where they have 300 people, it’s not this like it’s so much easier. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Jay Kranda — So much so I don’t have to do a lot on the weekend outside of like physically being present to host and maybe troubleshoot and just make sure stuff is working, which can be a headache. Um but that works so a lot of our time is is getting people into groups, and so it’s for example, like that’s like a lot of my early time like… One of the game changers—and and I I haven’t said this a lot—but like one of the game changers of how we started a bunch of online groups was I signed up for a click funnel account… Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, yeah. Sure. Jay Kranda — …and I literally created a funnel of like you want to start a group. Ah, you want to join a group. Great, hey have you thought about starting a group? And I would create I created funnel pathways… Rich Birch — Yep, love it. Jay Kranda — …and I remember like our old school model was, and our church’s world class at this, but you had to go out and talk to somebody and do all this and I remember I remember one week and we started like 70 groups or something through this click funnel process and I remember like somebody coming like how did that, Jay, how did that happen? Rich Birch — What did you do? Yeah, yeah. Jay Kranda — And I was like well people already know what they want and I’m just funneling them… Rich Birch — Yep towards that. Jay Kranda — …I’m just fine and and I remember now we’ve moved away recently from click funnels and we built this out but like, I think too many times people like their call to action is to… like here’s the deal users online have gotten a lot smarter and they don’t want to talk to somebody. Rich Birch — Oh that’s a good insight. Jay Kranda — …like I was just like yesterday I had a I signed up cause I’m like an old man now or I’m getting older and I had I signed up for life insurance and or term insurance… Rich Birch — Yes. Jay Kranda — …and I remember the company that I used, Protective or something I I got locked out of my account and they forced me to call somebody to unlock it. And I was like I literally like I’m not like a grumpy person with like agent people… Rich Birch — Yes. Jay Kranda — …on the phone because I know that they’re not getting paid that much, but I was like why do I have to call you? Rich Birch — Yes, this seems so backwards. Yes. Jay Kranda — Like it but think about all these complex things that are church that you are forced to go out to a table, or talk to somebody. And I guess my my thing is is that I understand why that’s needed and a good concierge experience and it’s always good to build it have an option. But I think if you spend the time and record a video and explain it on a page, people can figure it out on their own, and guess what if you do that now people could do it all waking hours of the day. That’s the power of the internet. That’s the power up online. And how many times do people oh let’s just talk Sunday, and if you go to, for example, people watching this, if you go to what we just launched this new experience on saddleback.com – if you go to saddleback.com/online, if you go to our our community page, you’ll see like we have a video where we explain how to engage, and how to sign up for a group… Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, yeah, right. Jay Kranda — …and how to take class 101, and how to start a watch party, get an extension, and we just lay it all out. And funny thing if you invest in a video and in text explaining it and easy ways to start it people will do it… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, right. Right. Jay Kranda — …even when you’re not on it. It’s it’s like starting a business. People will buy the product because it’s on the page. And so I think most pastors and churches haven’t thought about that process. And so I think that’s been… and then ah, there’s a lot of reinforcement you’re and I mean like our Facebook group reinforces that. The hosting reinforces that. Our website reinforces that. The weekly emails I send reinforce it, because ultimately what I’m asking somebody far away, I’m asking them to watch every week and engage. I’m I’m asking them to be in our Facebook group, to take some of our classes one time on Zoom. I’m asking them to be in a small group, and I’m asking them ultimately to host something in their home called an extension. And that’s ultimately what I’m I’m doing. Rich Birch — You moving towards them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jay Kranda — And so there’s a lot of repeating and and honestly that’s what my pastor and our church is brilliant at is that we repeat that stuff a lot and we don’t overcomplicate it. I think what gets harder online is there are the harder thing to figure out is what do you do with people spread out. So for example, we do something special where we do we do something called Meetups where we will pick pick geographical regions and somebody on my team their job is to focus on this, where once once… Like it’s probably 2 to 3 times a month we’ll say hey everybody who lives in Canada, we’re gonna meet on Zoom. And the goal of that is to connect people to each other. And and the ultimate goal was maybe maybe you could start a group with somebody, but we do these Meetups which that’s probably the biggest difference between our our local campuses and us online is we don’t have concentrated groups of people just I could just connect with each other. I have to in our Facebook group, in these Zoom Meetups, I have to we have to host special programming in order to connect people to to each other. And then what like as you know like Canada’s huge so it’s like wait I’m over here… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, right. Jay Kranda — …and you know I’m in Vancouver and like we’re not near so what do we do? Well we have to host a sub-Meetup, you know what I mean? And so and then sometimes like we’ll do a Meetup and only 3 people come on that thing and but guess what those 3 people start a group together. And so that’s probably the biggest difference. I don’t know if I answer the full question but that’s kind of where I will. Rich Birch — No, it’s good. I love that. That got me thinking about—if you got a few more minutes I’d love to tap this question—the care of those groups. So help me understand the the tending. Um I I understand from a staff point of view that sounds like a coach level kind of like, hey we’re keeping on top of them, caring for the leaders, making sure they’re still meeting, trying to you know… Give us a sense of what that rhythm looks like for your team as they’re caring for those groups. Jay Kranda — Yeah, it’s funny. We were just in a conversation a couple weeks ago and we were talking about what’s working, what’s not working. And one of the things I always struggle with with online is is the deep care for people, like where are our real gaps. Because ultimately like I always go to that James verse about you know as a teacher and a leader of the church I’ll be accountable for the people under my care and I think I’ve always struggled with, okay what do I do with somebody you know, a state a country over who sees like they’re part of our church, like they’re members, and they give and they’re part of a group, like what type of care am I offering? And and you know can I marry, bury them? Can I is there a benevolence option? Like what counseling crisis, like what you know… Because because there are to act like everything’s figured out I think is so naive. And I think sometimes when people argue about online church and online ministry, digital ministry… I ah like I texted a lot of friends during Covid who were pretty hardcore online, which they’re my friends, so I understand where they’re coming from, because I feel like sometimes online guys and and and women leading in this effort, they’re so focused on justifying because they’re so been like beat down… Rich Birch — Yeah, they… yes sure. Jay Kranda — …that sometimes they get too extreme. And um, you know they’re they’re they’re literally like like I always tell people like DJ Soto during VR church, like he is a he’s literally like a modern day evangelist. So he’s out in the Bush doing something totally different … Rich Birch — Yes, yep, yep. Love DJ. Jay Kranda — …and it’s like reading Peace Child, like you’re not even, like to think you understand their paradigm, you you just don’t. Rich Birch — Yeah, Yes, yeah, true. That’s very true. Jay Kranda — Like you don’t like and so like as much and so but I also will text I text people during Covid like, hey guess what being online only and not having physical relationships—I’m a homebody get Covid sucked, like it was not fun the whole time like being stuck at home—like there are gaps to this. Rich Birch — Yep. Jay Kranda — And so I think so so to say all that, one of the things that we do is we do try to connect people to each other. And the way we measure this as ah as a whole is um, a couple things. We have a goal to make sure every leader of a group is a member of our church, like has taken that Zoom class, so they know what it means. So we don’t require you to be a member initially but over the first 60 days you have to be a member. We also don’t plug people into your group if you’re not a member. Rich Birch — Mmm, oh that’s a good distinction. Yeah, right. Jay Kranda — So your group could start off of like if you and your friends want to start a group and you’re you know you’re in Toronto and you want to do that great. Go start a group. But if you want me to plug people in your group, I have to know that you know what we believe, and you’re agreeing to our covenant. Like now you and your group—so the idea is that you’ll just mess up the people you already know, you’re… Rich Birch — Sure, sures sure. Yeah, yeah, yes. Jay Kranda — …and I mean this is kind of like the, you know, the raw explanation of that. And so you have to be a member, the leader with that… So we have a goal so we might have 1500 groups, but how many of those groups are actually members, and so that’s like the big goal. The next goal is, are you regularly talking to us? Like and we define that by like a 45 day range… Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda — and so if you stop talking to us um we’ll like tag you in a way… Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda — …that will remove you from our finder, and then we’ll ultimately we’ll delete your group. Rich Birch — Right. Jay Kranda — And so we’re very active. So we might start you know you know a couple hundred groups a year, but we also delete you know a hundred groups a year, you know what I mean? So it’s like so we have a lot of growth. But there’s also a lot of purging happening at the same time, because because part of a high growth mindset, you know, you’re gonna it’s kind of like it’s like Wikipedia. It’s like you’re going to have a lot of messed up pages every once in a while, but I think it’s controlled chaos a bit. Rich Birch — Yep. Jay Kranda — The other thing is we do teach a leadership class on like how to lead a healthy group which is taught via Zoom and we actually teach two versions. So when I look at our groups, we might have 1500 groups, but how many of those groups are members, how many of the hosts are members, how many of them are regularly talking to us, and how many of them are taken our leadership training. And if they do those things, then I start to go great. And we look at it, okay, great. You know, what—I’m just saying this like—let’s say 1200 of our groups out of 1500 are members. Okay, what’s going on with the other 300? Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s talk about it. Yeah. Jay Kranda — And then let’s say only 500 are taking our leadership. Well why is nobody taking this class? Is the class not relevant? Is it not helpful? Um, for example, one of the things we problem solved recently was we teach our class our membership class on Sunday afternoons pacific time, and I knew we were missing a lot of our international. So we’re teaching a Friday night Asia kind of specific class and we’re gonna do that twice a year to kind of help our more international people because Sunday at 2, you know, it is a hard time because it’s going to be like late late you know Europe time, and it’s going to be you know, early morning Asia, you know, time. And so I think those are the things we struggle with being an international kind of impact… Rich Birch — Yep yep. Jay Kranda — …but that’s how we measure the health of our groups like kind of at at a high level. Rich Birch — Dude, that’s so good. So helpful. This has been such a good conversation. I’m going to beg you to come back on in the future, because there’s so much we could talk about, but I do want to respect your time. You’ve given us a great resource that we’re going to pass on to people. It’s a fantastic ah PDF called Online Church: How to Go Beyond Streaming a Service to Bringing People into the Body. One of the things, friends, that you’re as you’re listening in, you’ve heard clearly that I just love about you, Jay, is hey this isn’t about managing, or maybe it’s we need to move beyond just managing the weekend stream. We need to move beyond just how do we make sure that that works. We got to dive so much deeper. Tell us a little bit about this resource; give us a kind of ah um, why we should download this and yeah, just give us a bit of insight into that. Jay Kranda — Yeah, this was a an ebook that I worked on with our kind of our training team at our church um during Covid. It was just kind of outlining some framework around how to think about online church How to like structure it. So it’s very raw. It’s I mean it’s very like philosophical, and then there’s some very practical things. But it’s it’s there to kind of get you thinking. I really want I really encourage pastors to just get beyond streaming because I think it it is like the eye candy. You know people want to have a big stream, a lot of subscribers which I get, and I think that’s good, but you could have a huge front door but lose everybody through the back door. And I actually think if you focus on the back door first, I think you’ll long term because what happens is when you move people around the bases, or whatever your your approach is, you you actually train people to evangelize, which will ultimately grow your front door. Rich Birch — Yeah. Jay Kranda — And I think we actually we’ve we’ve benefited greatly on being a very deep place for people to connect, which ultimately people invite. And so I actually credit most of our successes just personal evangelism than any… Because we we spend money on ads and we do things but it’s very a fraction compared to a lot of other churches our sizes and so I think this is a kind of give you a framework to start thinking about it. Rich Birch — Love it. So good, Jay – I appreciate this. I really appreciate you being on. Anything else you want to say just as we wrap up today’s episode? Jay Kranda — Yeah I I was I would just kind of say, you know I would look at your church and think about how many hours a week do people actually think about digital right now, like at your church. Like think about it, like this is how many hours we do ministry, like put your hours in their – volunteer hours, total it all up and kind of go, okay, you know what, of all of our hours. We only have one hour a week we actually think about digital. And my encouragement to you as a church—I know it’s very confusing, and it’s hard, it’s always moving—trust me I get confused by digital all the time. Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah. Jay Kranda — You know. I download TikTok and I’m like I don’t even understand what the world is going on on this platform. Rich Birch — Yeah, sure. Yes. Jay Kranda — I don’t sing; I’m not a drama student. Like I don’t know if I could be successful in here. So I feel that too. It’s it’s hard, but my encouragement is just to double your focus on digital this next year. Rich Birch — Love it. Jay Kranda — Like so if you have an hour a week, how can you move to 2 hours? And then recruit. Like one of the things that I think could be super helpful is do like a digital summit like event at your church and cast the vision, hey if you do digital for your work… Rich Birch — So good. Jay Kranda — …like if you’re a coder or a marketing strategist, do like a digital summit at your church find out the talent at your church, and go hey help us. I think you need to provide a place like years ago, creatives needed a place at their church to be engaged, you need to give the digital experts at your church. Like I know you probably have somebody who has probably a thousand followers on Instagram or killing it on TikTok and tap them in to help your church figure it out, and just paint them a vision and then unleash them, but double your focus and list some new people through that digital summit idea, and trust me, I think the fog will start to kind of clear over the next couple months. Rich Birch — So good. So helpful. Jay, I really appreciate you being here today investing time in us. I’m literally taking pages and notes here stuff I’m I’m looking forward to chewing on. How can we connect with you, kind of track with the church? All of that stuff. Where do we want to send them online if they want to kind of follow along a little bit closer? Jay Kranda — Yeah, so actually my website jaykranda.com. I have a free Youtube course where I did like a 12 episode… Rich Birch — Love it. Jay Kranda — How to Think About Digital Ministry. There’s also if you want to learn more more about online groups, I did a a course with Small Group Network on how to lead online small groups. There’s actually a free version on their Youtube channel, which you could find links and everything on my on my website. Rich Birch — Great. We’ll send people over there. Super excited. Thank you so much, Jay, all the best cheering for you. Thanks for being on the episode. Jay Kranda — Thanks.