Faith Matters

This week, Faith Matters is bringing you a story that defies expectations so completely that you really have to hear it straight from the source. Our guest was Daryl Davis, who’s easily one of the most fascinating and inspiring people we’ve ever met.Daryl has spent his career as a professional musician, including decades playing alongside rock and roll legends Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis. He’s a master of multiple instruments, but specializes on the piano, where he blends unbelievable talent, skill, and passion to create truly incredible music. Make no mistake however, there's much more to Daryl than just music.Daryl first experienced anti-Black racism from strangers as a young boy, and it inspired a lifelong question: “how can you hate me when you don’t even know me?” Over many years, that question eventually led him to not just meet, but befriend members and leaders of Ku Klux Klan: as those friendships have blossomed, love and respect have grown in the place of hate. Daryl now estimates that he’s been instrumental in persuading over 200 white supremacists to leave their hate groups. Along with his story, Daryl shares a provocative message: that we should continuously allow people with incorrect or even abhorrent viewpoints to air their opinions. In Daryl’s view, ignorance is the root of fear, hate, and destruction. And only by remaining together in the same cultural spaces, and even actively seeking out and conversing with those we disagree with, can we counter the root cause — ignorance — with education and exposure to better views. That’s how Daryl says we can then eliminate the symptoms of fear, hate, and destruction.Daryl has told his story on platforms like The Joe Rogan Experience and TedX, where he’s garnered tens of millions of  views and downloads. We want to thank the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism, known by their acronym “FAIR,” who introduced us to Daryl and made this interview happen. FAIR is nonpartisan organization dedicated to advancing civil rights and liberties for all Americans, and promoting a common culture based on fairness, understanding, and humanity. Daryl is a Senior Fellow and Advisory Board Member at FAIR, and you can find out more about their foundation at fairforall.org. 

For this episode, we were happy to bring on someone that’s been on our list for a long time  — scholar and writer James Goldberg.James is a fascinating person and Latter-day Saint, and brings a truly unique perspective to our faith. In his words, his family is Jewish on one side, Sikh on the other, and Mormon in the middle. He works as a historian at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and is also a poet, novelist, essayist, playwright, documentary filmmaker, scholar, and translator. He’s won the Association for Mormon letters awards in both the Drama and Novel categories, for different works, and has been a finalist in the Poetry, Creative Nonfiction, and Criticism categories. He’s also one of a rotating cast of scholars on BYUtv’s Come Follow Up series. Our conversation was wide-ranging and it turns out James has interesting insights to share on just about anything — so we covered several topics, including how Latter-day Saints can approach the Old Testament, wrestling with other difficult scripture or history, and the virtue of the slow, distilled process of creating poetry. We also discussed James’s book of poetry, Let Me Drown with Moses and its provocative title, including the virtue of choosing faith in a chaotic world while maintaining our own moral compass.

We’ve been thinking and talking a lot recently about a phenomenon that sometimes happens and that we’ve occasionally felt ourselves — something you might call a “spiritual whiplash.” It can happen when we’re really uplifted by something: maybe a book we’ve read, an inspiring group of people we’ve been around, or even a transcendental experience in nature. We’re feeling fed, and our cup is full… but then, we come back down to earth. We’re faced with the realities of the mundane, and the imperfections and humanity of the people all around us, including ourselves. So — what are we supposed to do when this happens? Is it realistic to expect to stay in this spiritually uplifted state all the time? What about when even our Church meetings don’t feel like they’re recharging our batteries, but instead are draining them? When we’re feeling fed by something, how do we take that feeling with us to share in our everyday settings and communities, rather than resenting the contrast between them? How can we look at members of our communities as God might, rather than judging them for not meeting our standards — or even judging them for what we perceive as them judging us?To discuss these issues, we brought back a trusted friend and mentor, Patrick Mason. Patrick is the Leonard Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University, and a frequent guest on this show and advisor to Faith Matters. He’s spoken and written quite a bit on this topic, including in his book Planted. He was an amazing conversation partner as we worked our way through some of these questions. We can’t thank him enough for coming back on.As a note, we referenced our recent Restore gathering several times in the conversation, including presentations that were given by Brian McLaren, Jared Halverson, and Jody Moore. We also reference a few faith development frameworks that you’ll hear, including Brian’s which you can learn more about in his book Faith After Doubt.

In this episode, we were honored to bring back our friend Brian McLaren to talk about his brand new book, Do I Stay Christian?In this new book, Brian addresses a real question which underlies a startling sociological truth: people are leaving Christianity at a rapid pace. In fact, Pew Research shows that today, about 64% people in the US identify as Christian, after falling rapidly from a high of 90% just a few decades back.Brian’s book takes an unflinching look at the reasons people might leave Christianity, before spending a lot of time on why someone might choose to stay, as Brian has. But you won’t find any “apologetics” here — rather, Brian looks at staying as part of a broader faith journey — one that can take us out of a simple world of black-and-white into a new “stage” of our faith: one filled with paradox, mystery, and love. In one of the most compelling and memorable parts of the book, Brian asks “What if you’re really trying to change stages, not religions?”While truly not prescribing any particular path for readers, Brian shows how all people of good will — including those with doubts, questions, and criticisms — can do so much to benefit their institutions and traditions if they choose to stay. We think this book does so much good work to paint compelling reasons for doing so, and to help illustrate a path forward.Brian McLaren an author, speaker, activist, and public theologian. A former college English teacher and pastor, he is a passionate advocate for “a new kind of Christianity” – just, generous, and working with people of all faiths for the common good. He is a faculty member of The Living School and podcaster with Learning How to See, which are part of the Center for Action and Contemplation. We’d also recommend going back and listening to Brian’s first appearance on the Faith Matters podcast in episode #67, where we discuss his book Faith After Doubt.

In this episode, we got to speak with Carol Lynn Pearson about her new book, The Love Map: Saving Your Love Relationship and Incidentally Saving the World.Carol Lynn has been a powerful and well-known voice in the Latter-day Saint community for many years. She’s the author of several remarkable works, including the memoir Goodbye, I Love You, and the book of poetry Finding Mother God: Poems to Heal the World. Her full catalog of works is too impressive to list here, but one other highlight is that she wrote one of our very favorite primary songs: I’ll Walk with You, which was published as a children’s book in 2020.Carol Lynn will also be speaking with us at Restore, our upcoming gathering in Salt Lake City.Carol Lynn’s new book is a remarkable work of fiction, that, as Carol Lynn says, is also true. It’s the story of a young woman whose fraught relationship with her husband is reaching a breaking point just as she suffers traumatic injuries in a terrorist attack. But a vision she experiences while recovering gives her something remarkable and unexpected — a “map” that will serve as a guide to healing her most intimate relationship, and allow her to see each person in her life as God does.Though the book is intended for an audience much wider than just Latter-day Saints, its message resonated deeply with us, and Carol Lynn’s hard-won wisdom and remarkable gifts an artist were abundantly apparent throughout the book.We’d strongly encourage anyone hoping for healing in their relationships to pick it up — we really think you won’t regret it. You can find the book available on Amazon now.We want to extend a sincere thanks to Carol Lynn for coming on, and we hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did.

The Restoration occurred in a fascinating and complex religious and historical moment in American history, and knowing more about that context can help us more deeply appreciate the blessings and beauty of the Restored Gospel.One person at the forefront of expanding our knowledge of early American religious history is David Holland, a professor at Harvard Divinity School and also the son of Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. In today’s episode Zach Davis and Terryl Givens visited David in his Cambridge office to discuss a range of topics, including how to discern the hand of God in history, whether there’s something about Calvinist theology worth celebrating, and how the experience of being a parent might be the best insight of all into the nature of God. David Holland is a Professor of New England Church History at Harvard Divinity School and a renowned scholar of American religious history. He earned a BA in history from BYU and a PhD from Stanford University. He is the author of Moroni: A Brief Theological Introduction, published by the Maxwell Institute and Sacred Borders: Continuing Revelation and Canonical Restraint in Early America, published by Oxford University Press in 2011.

For today’s episode, we were really excited to bring on Jason Olson, who, along with James Goldberg, is the author of a new memoir called The Burning Book.Jason’s story is truly fascinating: he was born into a reform Jewish household with a Jewish mother and a Christian father. As a child and young person, he was always drawn to God and to religion, and found himself very involved in both study and practice in his faith. After his Bar Mitzvah at age 13, he eventually encountered some Latter-day Saint friends who, after many hours of religious discussions over a long period of time, offered him a copy of The Book of Mormon with no real expectations. Afraid of what his family would think if they saw the book at home, and afraid of what his friends would think if they saw him carting it around, unread, he decided the best option would simply be to burn the book and  destroy the evidence. But just as he was about to do so, Jason had a moment of remarkable spiritual insight — and that’s where his truly unique story begins.Now a defense diplomat and policy officer with a Ph.D. in Near Eastern and Judaic studies, Jason came on with us to share his remarkable insights about faith, religious conversion, and God’s expansive plans across all faiths and religions.The Burning Book was published by BCC Press, and you can find it on Amazon.2023 Update: The Burning Book won the 2022 Association for Mormon Letters award in creative nonfiction.

For today’s episode, we were lucky enough to bring back Latter-day Saint philosopher and theologian Adam Miller to talk about his new book, Original Grace. Of the many incredible books we’ve read from Adam, this one, we think, might have the most potential to really change the way we engage God and the world.We’ll let Adam explain the major theses of the book, but we’ll just say that in many ways it entirely upends traditional understandings of concepts like justice, suffering, mercy, punishment, and, of course — grace. For anyone that has ever felt that they simply aren’t good enough, Adam mines Latter-day Saint scripture and teachings to show that it was never our job to “save ourselves.” As he puts it, “grace-filled partnership with Christ” was the plan all along.Adam even shares some recent scholarship that shows that one of our faith’s foundational scriptures about grace  — “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” — has been misread and misunderstood so widely, and for so long, that its original meaning has been almost reversed.Adam Miller earned a BA in Comparative Literature from Brigham Young University and an MA and PhD in Philosophy from Villanova University. This book, Original Grace, was published by BYU’s Maxwell Institute and Deseret Book. Adam is the author of several others, including some of our favorites like Letters to a Young Mormon and An Early Resurrection.

In the past few decades, scholarship on the New Testament has opened up exciting new ways of understanding the context of the early followers of Jesus and has enabled new interpretations of the texts they wrote. One of the leading scholars advancing our knowledge of early Christianity is Laura Nasrallah, a professor at Yale who specializes in New Testament texts and archaeology. In this conversation, Zach Davis and Terryl Givens visited Laura in her New Haven office to discuss topics like the role of women in the early Christian church, how to discern God’s hand in the messy complexity of history, and New Testament practices like speaking in tongues and baptism for the dead. Laura Nasrallah is a Professor of New Testament Criticism and Interpretation at Yale University. Her research and teaching engage issues of gender, race, colonialism, status, and power and bring together New Testament and early Christian literature with the archaeological remains of the Mediterranean world. She is the author of the book Archaeology and the Letters of Paul.

The Faith Matters family lost a dear friend this week. Kate Holbrook passed away after a long battle with cancer. Kate was a graceful light in our lives. Her strength, her courage, her wisdom, her intelligence and her gentle manner will be with us forever. Our thoughts, prayers and determined support go out to our good friend Sam Brown, Kate’s forever companion, and to their three daughters.In Kate’s memory and honor, we’re sharing this conversation that she had with Terryl Givens in 2018. The video was called “extraordinary women in Mormon history,” and Kate, of course, is one of them.As managing historian of women’s history at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints history department, Kate wrote, studied, and interpreted history full-time. Her major research interests were religion, gender, and food. Her primary professional activity was to discover, encourage, and celebrate women’s flourishing in the scholarly and spiritual realms.We’d encourage everyone who’d like to honor and further Kate’s legacy to donate to a scholarship fund that has been set up in her honor, and that was established by her, together with her family. It was Kate’s wish as she departed mortality that these funds serve to help the women of the Church to flourish in their scholarly and spiritual lives. Kate herself benefited from a similar gift (from Ruth Silver of Denver, Colorado) early in her scholarly career, when she and Sam had minimal financial resources, and she needed time and money to devote to the study of women and religion. She hoped that such giving would become more and more common over time.To contribute, please head to kateholbrook.org/scholarship.We love you, Kate, and we miss you.