Longform

David Grann is a staff writer at The New Yorker. His new book is Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI. “The more stories I reported over time, the more I just realized there are parts of the story I can’t always get to. You know, unless this is a reality show and there’s 18 cameras in every room, and people [talk] before they sleep, and maybe you have some mind-bug in their brain for their unconscious, there are just parts you’re just not gonna know. You get as close as you can. And so the struggle to me is to get as close as I can, to peel it back as close as I can, but understanding that there will be elements, there will be pieces, that will remain lingering doubts.” Thanks to Stamps.com, Squarespace, and MailChimp for sponsoring this week's episode. @DavidGrann davidgrann.com Grann on Longform [00:45] David Grann on the Longform Podcast [01:45] Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI (Doubleday • 2017) [14:15] Stoner [22:15] Scrivener [37:00] "The Yankee Comandante" (New Yorker • May 2012) [38:45] The Hill [43:15] "Trial By Fire" (New Yorker • Sep 2009) [1:03:45] Absalom, Absalom! (William Faulkner • Vintage • 1990) [1:03:45] "How William Faulkner Tackled Race—and Freed the South From Itself" (John Jeremiah Sullivan • New York Times Magazine • June 2012) [1:04:15] Austerlitz (W.G. Sebald • Modern Library • 2011) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Alex Kotlowitz is a journalist whose work has appeared in print, radio, and film. He’s the author of three books, including There Are No Children Here: The Story of Two Boys Growing Up in the Other America. “The truth of the matter is, given what we do, we’re always outsiders. If it’s not by race or class, it’s by gender, religion, politics. It’s just the nature of being a nonfiction writer—going into communities that, at some level, feel unfamiliar. If you’re writing about stuff you already know about, where’s the joy in that? Where’s the sense of discovery? Why bother?” Thanks to MailChimp and MeUndies for sponsoring this week's episode. alexkotlowitz.com Kotlowitz on Longform [00:00] "Episode 03: Nick Denton, founder of Gawker Media" (Stoner • Apr 2017) [01:30] There Are No Children Here: The Story of Two Boys Growing Up in the Other America (First Anchor Books • 1992) [01:45] The Other Side of the River: A Story of Two Towns, a Death, and America’s Dilemma (First Anchor Books • 1999) [01:45] The Interrupters [02:30] "The Trenchcoat Robbers" (New Yorker • Jul 2002) [05:00] Common Ground: A Turbulent Decade in the Lives of Three American Families (J. Anthony Lukas • First Vintage Books • 1986) [14:45] "487: Harper High School, Part One" (This American Life • Feb 2013) [14:45] "488: Harper High School, Part Two" (This American Life • Feb 2013) [24:45] "179: Cicero" (This American Life • Mar 2001) [31:30] In the Lake of the Woods (Tim O’Brien • First Mariner Books • 2006) [35:30] Never a City So Real: A Walk in Chicago (Crown Journeys • 2004) [45:15] Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith (Jon Krakauer • First Anchor Books • 2004)   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brian Reed, a senior producer at This American Life, is the host of S-Town. “It’s a story about the remarkableness of what could be called an unremarkable life.” Thanks to MailChimp, Casper, and Squarespace for sponsoring this week's episode. @brihreed Reed's This American Life archive [30:00] "Cops See It Differently" (This American Life • Feb 2015) [30:00] "Wake Up Now" (This American Life • Dec 2014) [45:45] Stoner (John Wiliams • Viking • 1965) [49:30] Photo of the S-Town planning room [47:15] The Known World: A Novel (Edward P. Jones • HarperCollins • 2003) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hrishikesh Hirway is the host of Song Exploder. “I love the idea that somebody would listen to an episode [of Song Exploder] and then the feeling that they would have afterwards is, ‘Now I want to make something.’ That’s the best possible reaction. Whether it’s music or not, just that idea: ‘I want to make something.’ Because that is the thing that I love most, getting that feeling.” Thanks to MailChimp and MeUndies for sponsoring this week's episode. @HrishiHirway [00:00] Stoner [01:45] BBC’s Classic Albums [02:30] "Episode 80: Bojack Horseman" (Song Exploder • Aug 2016) [02:30] "Episode 95: Moonlight" (Song Exploder • Jan 2017) [09:15] Genius [09:30] Who Sampled [18:00] 99% Invisible [19:15] "Episode 42: U2" (Song Exploder • Jun 2015) [22:30] The One AM Radio [23:00] Moors [26:30] City Soundtracks [28:15] The West Wing Weekly [33:30] "Episode 111: Louis CK Part 1" (WTF with Marc Maron • Oct 2010) [38:45] "Episode 84: Peter Bjorn and John" (Song Exploder • Sep 2016) [44:45] Francis and the Lights Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sheelah Kolhatkar is a staff writer at The New Yorker and the author of Black Edge: Inside Information, Dirty Money, and the Quest to Bring Down the Most Wanted Man on Wall Street. “Suddenly the financial crisis happened and all this stuff that had been hidden from view came out into the open. It was like, ‘Oh, this was actually all kind of a big façade.’ And there was all this fraud and stealing and manipulation and corruption, and all these other things going on underneath the whole shiny rock star surface. And that really also demonstrated to people how connected business stories, or anything to do with money, are to everything else going on. I mean, really almost everything that happens in our world, if you trace it back to its source, it’s money at the root of it.” Thanks to MailChimp, Blue Apron, and Stamps.com for sponsoring this week's episode. @sheelahk sheelahkolhatkar.com Kolhatkar on Longform [00:15] SAIC Application [00:30] Pregnant Pause [01:15] Missing Richard Simmons [04:00] Black Edge: Inside Information, Dirty Money, and the Quest to Bring Down the Most Wanted Man on Wall Street (Random House • 2017) [07:30] Kolhatkar’s Observer archive [09:15] "Suzy Wetlaufer Preparing To Be 'Neutron Jackie'" (Observer • Apr 2004) [15:00] "Hedge Funds Are for Suckers" (Bloomberg • Jul 2013) [17:45] Kolhatkar’s Time archive [18:00] "Poor Ruth" (New York • Jul 2009) [26:30] "When the Feds Went After the Hedge-Fund Legend Steven A. Cohen" (New Yorker • Jan 2017) [27:00] "Cheating, Incorporated" (Bloomberg • Feb 2011) [29:15] "The $40-Million Elbow" (Nick Paumgarten • New Yorker • Oct 2006) [35:15] "On the Trail of SAC Capital’s Steven Cohen" (Bloomberg • Jan 2013) [53:45] To Catch a Trader [58:15] "Trump’s Wolves of Wall Street" (New Yorker • Dec 2016) [59:45] "Juno Takes on Uber" (New Yorker • Oct 2016) [59:45] "Financiers Fight Over the American Dream" (New Yorker • Mar 2017) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Al Baker is a crime reporter at The New York Times, where he writes the series “Murder in the 4-0.” “When there’s a murder in a public housing high rise, there’s a body on the floor. Jessica White in a playground, on a hot summer night. Her children saw it. Her body fell by a bench by a slide. You look up and there’s hundreds of windows, representing potentially thousands of eyes, looking down on that like a fishbowl. …They’re seeing it through the window and they can see that there’s a scarcity of response. And then they measure that against the police shooting that happened in February when there were three helicopters in the air and spotlights shining down on them all night and hundreds of officers with heavy armor going door to door to door to find out who shot a police officer. They can see the difference between a civilian death and an officer death.” Thanks to MailChimp and Squarespace for sponsoring this week's episode. @bakeal [02:15] Murder in the 4-0 [04:15] Baker’s Archive at New York Daily News [08:15] "The myth of the killer-cop ‘epidemic’" (Michael Walsh • New York Post • Jan 2016) [09:15] The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness (Michelle Alexander • The New Press • 2012) [11:15] "A Bronx Precinct Where Killings Persist" (with Benjamin Mueller • New York Times • Feb 2016) [14:15] "From the archives: TWA Flight 800, flying with fear" (Newsday Staff Writers • Newsday • Jul 1996) [15:45] "A Bullet Misses Its Mark, and Then Takes a Fatal Detour" (with James C. McKinley Jr. • New York Times • Jan 2017) [21:15] "A Mother Is Shot Dead on a Playground, and a Sea of Witnesses Goes Silent" (with Benjamin Mueller • New York Times • Oct 2016) [22:45] "A Familiar Pattern in a Spouse’s Final Act" (with Benjamin Mueller & Ashley Southall • New York Times • Apr 2016) [22:45] "Quest for a New Life Ends in a Tangle of Gang Ties" (with James C. McKinley Jr. • New York Times • Aug 2016) [30:30] "Authorities Move to Charge 16 Officers After Widespread Ticket-Fixing" (with William K. Rashbaum • New York Times • Oct 2011) [36:15] Rukmini Callimachi on the Longform Podcast [37:30] Good Cop, Bad Cop: Joseph Trimboli vs Michael Dowd and the NY Police Department (Mike Mcalary • Pocket Books • 1996) [40:45] "A Cloak of Silence After a South Bronx Killing" (with Benjamin Mueller • New York Times • Mar 2016) [43:15] "Grandmother’s Killing Lays Bare a Dilemma in Child Welfare Work" (with James C. McKinley Jr. & Ashley Southall • New York Times • Nov 2016) [45:45] Random Family: Love, Drugs, Trouble, and Coming of Age in the Bronx (Adrian Nicole LeBlanc • Scribner • 2003) [47:30] "William Bratton, New York’s Influential Police Commissioner, Is Stepping Down" (with J. David Goodman • New York Times • Aug 2016) [47:30] "Ahmad Khan Rahami Is Arrested in Manhattan and New Jersey Bombings" (with Marc Santora, William K. Rashbaum, & Adam Goldman • New York Times • Sep 2016) [50:45] Seymour Hersh on the Longform Podcast [56:45] "Cops’ Favorite Target Thug, but Just Who Was the Guy?" (Michael Wilson • New York Times • Feb 2005) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Caity Weaver is a staff writer at GQ. “I always try to remember: you don’t have to tell people what you’re not good at. You don’t have to remind them of what you’re not doing well or what your weak points are. Don’t apologize for things immediately. Always give a little less information than they need. Don’t overshare.” Thanks to MailChimp for sponsoring this week's episode. @caityweaver caity.info Weaver on Longform [02:30] "Kim Kardashian West Has a Few Things to Get Off Her Chest" (GQ • Jun 2016) [11:45] Weaver's Hairpin archive [13:00] Weaver's Gawker archive [13:00] A.J. Daulerio on the Longform Podcast [15:30] "New Jersey Children Forced to Shun Sad, Friendless Bear" (Gawker• Jun 2013) [16:30] "Justin Bieber Would Like to Reintroduce Himself" (GQ • Feb 2016) [18:00] "Larry David and Julia Louis-Dreyfus Are Furious" (GQ • Nov 2015) [25:15] "Gawker Slammed for Story Outing Condé Nast Exec" (Jessica Roy • New York • Jul 2015) [25:45] "Caity Weaver Takes the Gawker Buyout" (Benjamin Mullin • Poynter • Jul 2015) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Matthew Cole is an investigative reporter at The Intercept, where he recently published “The Crimes of Seal Team 6.” “I’ve gotten very polite and very impolite versions of ‘go fuck yourself.’ I used to have a little sheet of paper where I wrote down those responses just as the vernacular that was given to me: ‘You’re a shitty reporter, and I don’t talk to shitty reporters.’ You know, I’ve had some very polite ones, [but] I’ve had people threaten me with their dogs. Some of it is absolutely cold.” Thanks to Squarespace, Blue Apron, and MailChimp for sponsoring this week's episode. @matthewacole matthewacole.com Cole on Longform [02:45] "The Crimes of Seal Team 6" (The Intercept • Jan 2017) [18:45] "SEAL Team 6: A Secret History of Quiet Killings and Blurred Lines" (Mark Mazzetti, Nicholas Kulish, Christopher Drew, Serge F. Kovaleski, Sean D. Naylor, and John Ismay • New York Times • Jun 2015) [21:00] "NBC Suspends Brian Williams for Six Months Over Iraq Helicopter Story" (Rory Carroll • Guardian • Feb 2015) [27:45] "How the NSA Plans to Infect ‘Millions’ of Computers With Malware" (Ryan Gallagher and Glenn Greenwald • The Intercept • Mar 2014) [35:15] "Adam Bruckner Was a Soccer Journeyman Searching For a Home. Along the Way, He Wound Up Solving a Murder" (ESPN Magazine • Jul 2012) [36:15] "Between Heaven and Hell" (ESPN Magazine • Jun 2006) [38:00] "Killing ourselves in Afghanistan" (Salon • Mar 2008) [39:45] "The Spy Who Said Too Much" (Steve Coll • New Yorker • Apr 2013) [45:30] "Report: Two CIA Black Site Prisons in Lithuania" (ABC News • Dec 2009) [47:45] "US Diplomat SMeared by ‘Sex Tape’" (ABC News • Sep 2009) [53:00] "Who Shot Bin Laden? A Tale of Two SEALs" (With Anna R. Schecter • NBC News • Nov 2014) [57:30] "‘American Sniper’ Chris Kyle Distorted His Military Record, Documents Show" (Intercept • May 2016) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Alexis C. Madrigal is an editor-at-large for Fusion, where he’s producing the upcoming podcast, Containers. “Sometimes you think like, 'Man the media business is the worst. This is so hard.' When you spend time with all these other business people, you probably are going to say, ‘Capitalism is the worst. This is hard.’ Competition that’s linked to global things is so hard because global companies are locked in this incredible efficiency battle that just drives all of the slack out of the system. Like media, there’s no slack left, and I don’t know where things go after that.” Thanks to MailChimp, Stamps.com, and Casper for sponsoring this week's episode. @alexismadrigal alexismadrigal.com Madrigal on Longform [00:00] Longform Podcast Survey [03:00] Madrigal’s Archive at The Atlantic [03:45] Consumer Conspicuous [05:00] Ross Andersen on the Longform Podcast [05:30] "First-Gen T. Rex Was No Bigger Than You" (Wired • Sep 2009) [06:45] Powering the Dream: The History and Promise of Green Technology (Da Capo Press • 2011) [12:45] Nuzzel [15:30] "BuzzFeed editor-in-chief in year-end memo: ‘Fake news will become more sophisticated’ than ever in 2017" (Oliver Darcy • Business Insider • Dec 2016) [19:00] "The alpha dog that wouldn’t hunt: How Trump’s ludicrous ‘alpha male’ act is destroying him" (Matthew Rozsa • Salon • Oct 2016) [24:00] "How Google Builds Its Maps—and What It Means for the Future of Everything" (Atlantic • Sep 2012) [27:45] "A Fleet of One" (John McPhee • New Yorker • Feb 2003) [28:15] Uncommon Carriers (John McPhee • Farrar, Straus and Giroux • 2006) [29:15] Madrigal’s Archive at Fusion [29:15] Real Future [37:45] Slacker [46:00] "American Aqueduct: The Great California Water Saga" (Atlantic • Feb 2014) [48:45] Madrigal’s Archive at NPR Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ana Marie Cox is the senior political correspondent for MTV News, conducts the “Talk” interviews in The New York Times Magazine, and founded Wonkette. “When people are sending me hate mail or threats, one defense I have against that is ‘you don’t know me.’ You know? That wasn’t something I always was able to say. As I’ve become a stronger person, it’s been easier for me to be like, ‘The person they’re attacking, it’s not me.’” Thanks to MailChimp, Squarespace, and Blue Apron for sponsoring this week's episode. @anamariecox anamariecox.com [00:30] Missing Richard Simmons [04:15] Cox’s Archive at Suck.com [10:00] "The Uses of Enchantment" (Suck • Jul 1997) [11:00] Cox’s Archive at Mother Jones [12:15] The Chicago Maroon [12:45] "Waterworld" (Suck • Sep 1996) [21:45] "Joe Buck Knows Why You Hate Him" (New York Times Magazine • Feb 2017) [25:30] Cox’s Archive at New York Times Magazine [25:30] Cox’s Archive at GQ [29:15] "What Bush Wants You to Do" (Wonkette • Apr 2004) [30:45] "The Lost Washingtonienne" (Wonkette • May 2004) [31:30] "Washingtonienne Speaks!! Wonkette Exclusive!! Must Credit Wonkette!! The Washingtonienne Interview!!" (Wonkette • May 2004) [33:00] "Face Value" (The Baffler • 2012) [36:15] "Wonkette Founder Cox: ‘If Hillary Wins, It’ll Be Because Black and Brown People Saved Us’" (YouTube • Sep 2016) [36:30] "Watch MTV News’ Ana Marie Cox’s Emotional Reaction to Latest Trump Sexual Assault Allegations" (Media Matters • Oct 2016) [39:45] "Fans Tweet About Mental Illness to Honor Carrie Fisher" (Ryan Burleson & Tara Parker-Pope • New York Times • Dec 2016) [42:15] "Exclusive: Ana Marie Cox Tells Breitbart News Sunday About Her Coming to Christ" (Robert Wilde • Breitbart • Mar 2015) [42:30] "Why I’m Coming Out as a Christian" (Ana Marie Cox • Daily Beast • Feb 2015) [48:00] Cox’s Archive at The Guardian [50:45] Roads & Kingdoms Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices