Art & Science of Complex Sales

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller sits down with Walter Crosby, CEO of Helix Sales Development to unpack the core ideas behind his book, Inside Out, and why sales teams often struggle to fit inside structured operating systems like EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System).Together, they break down how to integrate sales into the business operating rhythm without turning selling into a rigid, internal process, and how to pivot to a buyer first approach that qualifies earlier and lands better.Sales Should Not Sit Outside the Operating System (03:11)Walter explains why he wrote Inside Out as a practical guide for leaders who run EOS and want sales to stop feeling like the “outside team.” EOS creates strong internal clarity and structure, but sales has to operate in the buyer’s world, where customers do not care about internal language, frameworks, or meeting rhythms. The goal is to integrate sales into the operating system while still equipping sellers to lead customer conversations around real problems.The Buyer First Pivot Fixes the Standard Sales Process Dilemma (06:57)Walter argues that most sales processes fail when they are built around pitching and chasing. Instead, teams need a consistent baseline process that prioritizes the buyer journey: uncovering whether a problem exists, whether it is compelling, whether there is urgency, budget, and a clear decision path. The shift starts by dropping internal agenda and getting the buyer talking, listening for what matters, and helping them think differently about their problem before any demo, proposal, or solution talk.The Sifter Message Creates Consistency and Qualifies Earlier (17:24)Walter introduces the sifter message as the company sales story that keeps teams aligned without turning reps into scripted robots. The business provides a shared narrative, positioning, and templates so five sellers do not tell five different stories. He also recommends leading with common ground, naming that most solutions are similar, then focusing on the small difference that matters to the buyer. This approach builds trust fast and helps teams earn a “no” earlier, so they stop wasting time on deals that will not close.Listen to the full conversation with Walter Crosby and explore practical ways to build a buyer-first sales motion that qualifies earlier, stays consistent, and drives better outcomes.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller has a conversation with Guy Lloyd, Managing Director of the Institute of Sales Professionals, about why sales needs more respect, better standards, and clearer career paths in today’s complex B2B world.They cover the cultural stigma around sales in the UK, why selling is a service profession, and how the ISP framework gives teams a practical roadmap for growth.Sales in the UK Is Getting Harder and the Profession Needs a Reset (00:19)Guy says UK B2B deals are growing more complex, buyers are more cautious, and AI is adding both opportunity and confusion. The bigger issue is perception. Sales is still viewed negatively from the outside, even though salespeople love the career. That gap has to close if teams want stronger results.Sales Is a Service Profession, Not a Persuasion Game (02:29)From early customer facing jobs to global IBM leadership, Guy has always seen sales as helping customers improve their business. He compares selling to medicine. Great sellers diagnose, guide, and create real outcomes, not pressure deals over the line.The ISP Framework Gives Sellers a Map for Development (11:09)Guy explains the ISP sales framework and its four quadrants: core sales skills, business sales skills, leading self, and leadership. It scales by role, so junior reps are measured on realistic competencies and leaders on advanced ones. The framework powers assessments, training endorsements, and clearer standards across the profession.A Living Framework That Clarifies Career Growth (22:30)Guy says the framework is designed to evolve as selling changes, whether driven by AI, new buyer behavior, or new expectations. That keeps standards relevant and training aligned to today’s reality. Just as importantly, it replaces vague career development with clear signposting. Sellers can see what’s required at the next level, build those skills intentionally, and grow with confidence instead of being told they are “not ready yet” without a path forward.Listen to the full conversation with Guy Lloyd and discover how a shared standard can build pride in the profession and turn sales development into a real career roadmap.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller sits down with Barbara Weaver Smith, founder of The Whale Hunters, to challenge one of sales’ most sacred habits: cold email.Together, they explore why AI is accelerating the decline of outbound email, what replaces it in complex B2B selling, and how sales teams can adapt by leaning back into reputation, community, and high value human outreach.Email Is Dead: The Future of Cold Prospecting (00:50)Barbara lays out her “email is dead” hypothesis for cold prospecting. She argues that sellers are using AI to write more outreach, while buyers are using AI to filter and screen it, so cold emails are increasingly blocked or ignored. As companies tighten external email access and move communication into internal platforms, even one to one personalized emails will lose viability. Her takeaway is that teams need to shift now toward human first channels, like referrals, face to face connection, and LinkedIn based engagement, with KPIs reflecting real conversations over email volume.Build Authority and Community on LinkedIn (09:11)Barbara argues that as cold email loses effectiveness, authority becomes the new access point. Companies can post smart content, but in large account selling, individual reps also need a visible point of view. She encourages sellers to show up on LinkedIn like trusted experts, not broadcasters, joining real conversations, commenting thoughtfully, and becoming familiar to the people they want to meet.From there, she shifts to community as the future of prospecting. Instead of chasing strangers, reps should nurture circles of buyers who care about the same industry issues. Pick a topic you genuinely want to learn and talk about, stay informed, and participate consistently. Over time, that presence builds trust, warms relationships, and creates opportunities that cold outreach cannot.Multi Touch Prospecting and the Culture Shift Beyond Email (19:51) Barbara says leaders need to reset how teams prospect now that cold email is losing power. The shift starts by replacing an email first mindset with a consistent multi touch sequence. Email can still be one touch, but only as part of a broader rhythm that includes personal video, phone, voicemail, LinkedIn engagement, and marketing supported content.She reminds sales leaders that meeting someone new takes time. Even top reps need 9 to 10 meaningful touches, and newer reps may need 12 to 15. That only works if every touch is purposeful and clearly tied to who the buyer is. No generic AI spam. Hyper personalization has to be real, not automated flattery.Her point is simple. The future is not fewer touches. It is better touches, spread across channels, with patience and precision.Listen to the full conversation with Barbara Weaver Smith and discover how to stay ahead of the shift by building authority, creating community, and leading with high value human outreach in a world where cold email no longer opens doors.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller sits down with Britta Lorenz, Business Excellence and Enablement Lead at Growth Matters International, to explore what great enablement really means in complex sales.Together, they unpack why sales enablement must start with humans not tools, how coaching becomes the real force multiplier for performance, and how leaders can balance AI efficiency with the trust and presence that only people can bring.Enablement Maturity Starts with Listening and Data (04:16)Britta says great enablement starts by meeting teams where they are. Before rolling out tools, leaders must understand maturity, skills, and process alignment. She begins with deep listening to reps and managers, then validates insights with data like activity levels, conversion rates, touchpoints, and asset usage to spot real gaps.Sales as Meaningful Meetings and the Role of Coaching (09:40) Britta defines sales as a progression of meaningful meetings built on trust and clarity, not pressure to close fast. She connects that idea to leadership too. Training helps, but coaching creates the habits, ownership, and confidence that drive consistent performance.Coaching as the Force Multiplier and Why the Human Core Still Wins (13:36) Britta calls coaching the multiplier that turns knowledge into behavior. It gets skipped because many managers were never taught how, and results feel slow in a fast world. AI can speed up prep and remove busywork, but it cannot replace presence, emotional intelligence, and trust in the meeting itself.Listen to the full conversation with Britta Lorenz and discover how to build human first sales enablement that uses AI to accelerate the work, while coaching and meaningful meetings drive real performance.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller sits down with Janice B. Gordon, founder of Scale Your Sales, to explore how revenue teams can become truly future fit.Together, they break down why most organizations still rely on outdated, internally focused processes, why customer excellence must drive every decision, and how data informed coaching can unlock the full potential of every seller on the team.Becoming an Outside In Organization (2:08)Janice reveals why so many companies still make decisions based on internal assumptions rather than customer reality. She explains how traditional stage gated processes create blind spots and why leaders should constantly ask one question above all: What is the impact of this decision on the customer? By strengthening feedback loops, increasing customer conversations, and bringing frontline insights into strategic discussions, organizations can finally operate the way customers need them to.The GTM Skills Crisis: Business Acumen and Adaptability (11:16)Janice highlights the widening gap between modern buyer expectations and the skills revenue teams currently possess. While adaptability is crucial, she argues it cannot function without strong business acumen. Sellers must learn to interpret complex decision making units, analyze financial implications, and lead high level conversations across stakeholders. Through role play, mutual action planning, and scenario work, teams can build the strategic muscles required for today’s B2B environment.Coaching Managers to Transform Team Performance (22:47)Janice emphasizes that managers are the true leverage point in any sales organization. Yet most have never been taught how to coach effectively. She outlines how predictive assessments reveal individual seller gaps and how data informed coaching helps managers shift from deal coaching to people coaching. When leaders develop the mindset, language, and consistency to coach every rep, teams move from relying on a top twenty percent to building a strong, high performing majority.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller sits down with Marylou Tyler, author of Predictable Revenue and Predictable Prospecting, to explore how her frameworks have evolved in the age of AI. Marylou shares how sales teams can embrace agentic AI, systems of specialized, single-task agents, to reduce busywork, boost quality conversations, and scale smarter.Together, they unpack how automation and LLMs are reshaping outbound strategies, where human sellers still matter most, and what it means to build a digital twin of your sales expertise. This episode blends deep technical insight with a clear-eyed view of what still makes great salespeople indispensable.Precision Outreach and Early Warning Signals in the Pipeline (12:47)Marylou Tyler breaks down how AI transforms both outbound outreach and pipeline management by moving beyond volume-based tactics toward personalized, signal-driven engagement. She explains how AI can analyze individual prospects—understanding their preferences, timing, and level of awareness—to create custom outreach sequences instead of one-size-fits-all campaigns.She also discusses the power of micro signals in the sales pipeline. From a lack of response to subtle changes in stage velocity, AI agents can now flag issues early and provide context around what’s stalling a deal. By identifying these patterns, sales teams can intervene faster, course-correct, and increase the likelihood of closing.Building an Army of AI Agents with Shared Context (24:06)Marylou Tyler explores the future of agentic AI in sales by envisioning a system of interconnected AI agents, each responsible for a specific part of the sales process. To work effectively together, these agents must operate under a shared context protocol that prevents miscommunication—just like a game of telephone can distort a message, AI systems can easily lose clarity without consistent guidelines.She references emerging protocols like Anthropic’s MCP and discusses the importance of using trusted tools or building custom systems to maintain integrity and alignment. As AI evolves rapidly, Marylou questions the relevance of traditional publishing and instead envisions dynamic, updateable frameworks delivered through AI-native formats.Why Humans Still Matter in a Tech-Driven Sales World (29:02) Marylou Tyler reflects on the accelerating pace of change in sales and reinforces the enduring value of human connection. Even in an AI-augmented environment, she argues, complex B2B sales still require trust, empathy, and real conversations. Sales professionals are not being replaced—they’re being called to elevate.She emphasizes the need to invest in training at the individual level, not just through broad team initiatives. With AI now enabling personalized feedback loops and skill development, the future of sales belongs to those who can combine data with deeply human conversations.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller sits down with Andrea Waltz and Richard Fenton, co-authors of Go for No, to explore how a mindset shift around rejection can unlock untapped sales potential.Together, they challenge the traditional obsession with getting to “yes” and make the case for measuring success by the number of “no's” you collect. From disqualification strategies to embracing failure as a learning tool, this episode is packed with stories, tactics, and mindset shifts that can help sales teams grow in courage, resilience, and results.The Power of Hearing No (1:08)Richard shares the origin story of Go for No, sparked by a question that changed his entire outlook on sales: “What did the customer say no to?” This chapter explores how most salespeople stop selling too early and how fear of rejection becomes a self-imposed limit on performance. The lesson is to stop judging your success by the size of the yes and start tracking how many no’s you’re willing to hear.Quantity Leads, Quality Follows (6:25)Andrea and Richard tackle the debate between activity volume and skill refinement. They argue that quantity is the leading indicator of success and that obsessing over perfect technique without enough activity leads to stagnation. Reps must fail forward using each no as a step toward improvement and insight.Persistence Pays Off (13:59)In a memorable personal story, Richard describes proposing to Andrea over 400 times before she finally said yes. The metaphor holds in sales: consistent, respectful follow-up creates familiarity, trust, and eventually, opportunity. No isn't the end of the conversation—it is often the beginning of a real relationship.Operationalizing the Go for No Mindset (19:35)Andrea explains how organizations can embed “Go for No” into culture without overhauling their entire process. From no-tracking challenges to mindset-based workshops, companies that celebrate rejection as a step toward growth see more activity, better morale, and stronger pipelines. Leaders play a crucial role in modeling and reinforcing this behavior.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller welcomes Colleen Stanley, sales leadership expert and author, to discuss her latest book Be the Mentor Who Mattered. Colleen shares why mentorship has never been more relevant and how small, intentional moments can create lifelong impact. Together, they explore the modern challenges to building community in the workplace, the power of mentor intelligence, and how leaders can shift from being task-driven to truly people-focused. With personal stories and practical takeaways, this conversation serves as both a call to action and a guide for becoming the kind of mentor that changes lives.The Perfect Storm for Mentorship (03:40)Colleen outlines three major shifts: the breakdown of community, the unintended consequences of social media, and the unrelenting pace of change, all of which are increasing the need for mentorship. She explains how remote work and hyperconnectivity have eroded meaningful connection and argues that mentorship is the antidote to a society that has become hurried and self-absorbed.Moments That Matter (10:24)Sharing stories from her book, Colleen emphasizes that mentorship doesn’t require a formal program or a famous background. She recounts how her mentor supported her during a period of self-doubt and how simple acts of paying attention can leave lasting impressions. These mentor moments often happen informally, in conversations, reviews, or small gestures, and they can shape entire careers.Making Mentorship Practical (14:28)Colleen stresses that anyone can be a mentor and offers tips to make mentorship manageable. From integrating it into daily routines to rethinking how we define mentorship, she advocates for a culture where supporting others is seen as a natural part of leadership. Her goal is to make mentorship less about structure and more about presence, awareness, and generosity of spirit.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller sits down with Mark Grundy, Fractional Sales Management of MFG Solutions. Mark brings 40 years of sales experience to the table, including 13 years specializing in fractional sales leadership. Their conversation dives into the importance of aligning sales processes with buyer behavior, building agile playbooks, and bridging the gap between frontline sales teams and leadership. Mark also shares insights into how AI and shifting trade dynamics are impacting B2B sales, especially across the US-Canada border.Sales as a Buyer-Centric Process (02:00)Mark defines sales not as a script to follow, but as a process designed around helping buyers make decisions. The conversation focuses on recognizing buyer steps, not seller steps, and how great sales execution requires identifying the “state change” the buyer is seeking. From transactional retail to enterprise B2B, the goal remains the same: deliver value that enables the buyer to move forward confidently.Designing Flexible Playbooks for Complex Sales (05:57)Playbooks should serve the buyer’s journey, not box sellers into rigid frameworks. Mark shares how effective playbooks include key questions to ask, tools to use, and clear exit criteria at every stage. He distinguishes between a generalized process and the granular play-by-play approach needed for each decision-maker in a complex deal. His coaching motto: “Process can’t be about checking boxes; it has to be dynamic, situational, and value-focused.”Accountability vs. Coaching (17:01)Mark explains how separating accountability reviews from coaching conversations builds trust and clarity. One-on-ones are kept short, factual, and frequent, tailored to each rep’s performance. Coaching, on the other hand, dives into skill development and deal strategy. He emphasizes the power of “windshield time,” riding along with reps in the field to reinforce culture and drive real impact.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller is joined by Steve Reid, CEO and founder of Venatas. With over three decades of experience in marketing, sales, and revenue leadership, Steve brings deep experience in helping venture-backed and scaling companies build buyer-led, high-performing sales organizations. Together, they explore why so many go-to-market teams underperform and what it really takes to fix it.The Three “Incorrects” Holding Sales Teams Back (10:32) Steve identifies three root causes of underperformance:Incorrectly assessing the team: Companies overestimate their reps’ true selling competencies and set unrealistic targets.Incorrect selling process: Most processes are built around what sellers want to do, not how buyers actually make decisions.Incorrect training: 80% of training is product-focused, leaving reps unable to conduct strong discovery or build business cases that win internal buy-in. By addressing these “incorrects,” organizations can finally achieve sustainable, predictable growth.Designing for a Buyer-Led Journey (20:41)Modern buyers want autonomy. They will engage with salespeople only when those sellers help them make confident decisions. Steve explains how sales teams can shift from CRM-driven checklists to buyer-focused conversations, helping customers connect product value to strategic business outcomes and navigate internal consensus.Buying Isn’t Linear, and Your Pipeline Shouldn’t Pretend It Is (29:07)Buyers don’t move from stage one to stage five during their buying journey. Instead, they loop, pause, and revisit decisions. Steve argues that the most effective sellers embrace this nonlinearity, using trust, credibility, and strategic influence to guide the process rather than forcing buyers into a fixed process.From Training to Transformation (39:57)Workshops don’t change behavior, reinforcement does. Steve highlights how lasting transformation requires an integrated system of ongoing coaching, deal reviews, enablement alignment, and process refinement over time. Listen to the full conversation with Steve Reid to learn how to build a truly buyer-aligned sales organization that replaces outdated assumptions with clarity, capability, and measurable results.