Art & Science of Complex Sales

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller is joined by Kelly Riggs, sales performance coach and founder of The Business LockerRoom. They dig into the realities of leadership, coaching, accountability, and why many sales teams fail to reach their full potential. Kelly challenges conventional thinking and offers practical guidance for creating stronger, more effective sales cultures.The Biggest Lie Sales Managers Tell Themselves (01:32)Kelly reveals that one of the most damaging beliefs among sales leaders is "I don't have time." He explains that many managers carry an efficiency mindset from their days as top performers, believing they can juggle development alongside administrative tasks. However, real leadership demands an intentional shift in time investment. Coaching cannot be rushed. To lead effectively, managers must step away from task juggling and prioritize one-on-one development, even if it feels inefficient.Accountability is a System, Not a Personality Trait (10:18)Kelly emphasizes that accountability does not stem from personality alone but from structured leadership systems. Many organizations hope to hire self-accountable reps and avoid the hard work of coaching. This rarely works. Accountability must be built into the culture by leaders who understand their role in reinforcing it. He notes that when managers create clarity, support, and regular coaching rhythms, accountability becomes a shared standard rather than a punitive concept.The Hidden Cost of Keeping Toxic High Performers (18:17)Kelly outlines the steep cultural and operational costs of retaining top sellers who undermine team morale. These individuals often hold leadership hostage by leveraging their revenue contributions. Kelly warns that while letting them go can feel risky, keeping them signals to the rest of the team that toxic behavior is acceptable. The result is a deteriorating culture, operational bottlenecks, and lost A-players. Leaders must confront this behavior early and decide whether the person can adapt or needs to exit.Sales Hiring and Team Design in the AI Era (23:46)Despite the rise of AI and automation, Kelly argues that the fundamentals of sales team design remain consistent. Tools can augment performance, but they cannot replace the core human aspects of sales. Selling is still about guiding buyers through complexity, building trust, and influencing decisions. Organizations that rely solely on tools without training for emotional intelligence, adaptability, and buyer alignment will fall behind. Salespeople are needed more than ever—not less.

Fred Copestake, founder of Brindis and the author of Ethical Selling, joins us to share his groundbreaking approach to sales that prioritizes integrity and empathy over traditional tactics. He challenges conventional norms through his fascinating use of reverse psychology, offering salespeople a fresh perspective on how to engage with clients. Fred introduces his "ethical model," providing listeners with practical strategies to incorporate ethical practices into their sales processes and handle common objections from sales leaders with confidence.

Paul Fuller and Mike Simmons, founder of Catalyst Sales, dive deep into transforming sales forecasting by focusing on just two critical metrics: pipeline created and pipeline developed. Mike mentions that sales teams today are overwhelmed with data but lack actionable insights. The conversation highlights the power of simplifying complex systems and introducing clarity through well-defined, binary, past-tense sales stages.They explore three essential, interlocking sales processes:The rep’s personal workflow (Identify, Engage, Establish Objectives, Clarify Next Steps, Call to Action).The formal sales process used for forecasting.The customer’s decision-making journey.Mike explains how companies often struggle with unreliable forecasts, bloated pipelines, and ambiguous stage definitions. The root cause is typically a lack of structure and alignment between sales strategy, execution, and tools. He makes a compelling case for treating CRM as a behavior-guiding system, not just a data repository.They also discuss the importance of consistent metrics across teams, tailored KPIs per rep, clear ICP qualifications, and involving cross-functional teams in revenue operations. The episode closes with a strong recommendation: simplify, track the right metrics, and align the entire organization around them to achieve predictable growth.

In this episode, Paul Fuller is joined by Mike Koory, founder & CEO of Blue SalesFly, to talk about his new book, The Guide Selling System. Mike shares how traditional sales tactics often miss the mark by focusing on persuasion rather than understanding. His system encourages salespeople to act as guides, helping customers move from where they are to where they want to be.Mike introduces the idea of using a structured, systems-based approach in sales, inspired by quality practices from other industries. He emphasizes the importance of asking better questions, building trust, and shifting the mindset from selling to guiding.He also talks about “TOPO map”, which focuses on Threats, Obstacles, Problems, and Opportunities as a way to reframe discovery and create more meaningful conversations. The discussion highlights how real change in sales happens not through high-pressure tactics, but through clarity, consistency, and collaboration.

In this episode, Sebastian Karlsson, a Sales Effectiveness Consultant at Membrain, joins Paul Fuller on the podcast to discuss how small, consistent habits and clear processes can make a big difference in both hitting targets and building confidence. Seb explains why having a sales process is like having a checklist. It helps teams avoid repeating mistakes, scale beyond just one top performer, and stay focused. He shares a personal story about starting small with fitness and how that idea translates to improving in sales.He also talks about the uncomfortable but powerful habit of watching recordings of his own sales calls. For him, it’s the fastest way to improve.The conversation is all about making progress one step at a time, keeping things human, and learning how to enjoy the process.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller is joined by Wesleyne Whittaker, founder of Transformed Sales, a former chemist turned international sales leader. The conversation unpacks what it means to transform sales teams from within, with a sharp focus on leadership accountability, mindset and skill-building, especially in the often-overlooked world of manufacturing and distribution sales.Wesleyne shares her journey from lab work to sales consultancy, revealing how her analytical background shaped a science-meets-art approach to solving sales challenges. She dives into the critical gaps in sales enablement within industrial sectors and shows how curiosity, mindset resilience and coaching cultures drive real performance improvement.With real-world examples including a powerful story of a leader who went from being on a performance plan to earning a spot at President’s Club, this episode challenges traditional views on sales training and emphasizes the deep, human work that goes into transforming a team.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales Podcast, we’re joined by Matt Long, co-author of Winning Faster and co-founder of Strategic Sales Optimization. Together with host Paul Fuller, Matt shares the lessons from his 25-year journey through enterprise software sales and why structure, not improvisation, is what unlocks consistent success in complex deals.The Shift from Tactics to Strategy (06:41)Matt reflects on his evolution from a tactical sales engineer into a strategic partner in enterprise deals. He unpacks how technical roles often stay too focused on immediate tasks, and why stepping back to analyze the full sales motion is where real selling begins. This shift laid the foundation for everything he now teaches.Breaking Down the MOVE Framework (11:19)At the heart of Matt’s methodology is the MOVE Framework: Motive, Opportunity, Value, and Engagement. Each component helps sales teams bring structure to chaotic buying cycles. He breaks down how to discover true business motives, map power and influence, articulate differentiated values, and engage customers meaningfully through every interaction.Why Better Demos Mean Faster Wins (36:05)Matt explains how weak demos lead to excessive proof-of-concepts and lost deals. He shares how aligning demos with discovery and tailoring value to different power centers speeds up decision-making and improves close rates. It’s not about more features but about being more relevant.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller chats with Brent Long about the mindset behind his new book The Greatest Sales Question Ever Asked. Brent shares how his personal approach to selling has evolved, and why honest, heart-led questions are the most powerful tool a salesperson can use.What Inspired The Greatest Sales Question Ever Asked (02:32)Brent reveals how the book was born from decades of coaching and a growing frustration with vague sales advice. Tired of hearing "ask better questions" without any clarity on what those questions were, Brent set out to define them. The book distills his years of field-tested coaching into a guide that helps salespeople build trust, ask with purpose, and sell without compromising who they are. It also reflects his personal faith and the belief that great salesmanship starts with truth and intention. Brent shares how the encouragement of clients and the challenge from his wife gave him the final push to complete the project, even when revisiting some difficult personal stories.From Tactics to Truth in Sales (07:13)Brent shares how his early career was driven by competitiveness and control. He was skilled enough to dominate conversations, win deals, and even manipulate people while still making them feel good about it. But over time, he began to feel the disconnect between performance and purpose. That turning point led him to rethink what success in sales really looks like. Instead of pursuing quick wins, he shifted toward serving others with genuine care. This part of the episode digs into the internal conflict many sellers face and how Brent reframed sales as an act of service rather than persuasion.The Three Truths of a Cold Call (11:57)In one of the most practical takeaways from the episode, Brent introduces his “Three Truths of a Cold Call” framework. Instead of using tricks or clever intros, Brent teaches salespeople to lead with honesty: acknowledge that it is a cold call, admit you might not be calling at the best time, and ask one thoughtful question. This opens the door to authentic conversations and lowers resistance. He shares how this approach has helped clients who were previously stuck break through with even the most resistant prospects. Brent also explains how truth-based selling builds long-term courage and confidence—paying salespeople with emotional momentum before any commission arrives.Brent's book can be found here.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, Paul Fuller sits down with Dave Brock, founder of Partners in EXCELLENCE. They unpack the challenges and contradictions facing modern sales teams—from cultural drift to leadership dysfunction—and explore what it really takes to build resilient, high-performing organizations in today’s environment.High Performers Play the Long Game (25:28)What do the best companies have in common? Dave shares lessons from top-performing organizations across industries. These teams focus on fundamentals, long-term leadership, and curiosity—not shortcuts. He emphasizes that sustained success is built on depth, not hacks or vanity metrics.High Performers Play the Long Game (25:28)What do the best companies have in common? Dave shares lessons from top-performing organizations across industries. These teams focus on fundamentals, long-term leadership, and curiosity—not shortcuts. He emphasizes that sustained success is built on depth, not hacks or vanity metrics.Rethinking Playbooks and Performance (36:59)Sales playbooks are helpful—but not when they become cages. Dave and Paul discuss how top reps use playbooks as foundations, not scripts. Real performance comes from learning, adapting, and thinking critically. They explore why flexibility, common language, and trust are more important than rigid rules in today’s complex sales environments.

In this episode of The Art and Science of Complex Sales, we’re joined by Tony Cross, CEO of Growth Matters International. Tony shares how sales managers can be the most powerful lever for sales transformation. The conversation focuses on how to lead teams through uncertainty, coach toward customer buying behavior, and create practical momentum through structured conversations and frameworks. Tony also introduces his "Chalk and Talk" initiative, a live, collaborative coaching experience designed to foster strategic action.Coaching Through Uncertainty (03:38)Tony explains how sales managers can cut through the noise by staying focused on the fundamentals. Rather than "getting back to basics," he advocates reinforcing foundational one-on-one coaching that helps reps guide customers through complex buying decisions. Uncertainty is high, but clarity can be created through strong leadership.Aligning with the Buying Process (06:08)The episode explores why sales teams need to understand how buying decisions are made inside customer organizations. Tony discusses using a draft buying vision to collaborate with buyers and ensure proposals speak to everyone involved, not just the primary contact. This approach builds trust and improves win rates.Pipeline Coaching with the ICE Model (15:55)Tony introduces the Identify, Clarify, Explore (ICE) model as a simple yet powerful framework for coaching reps on pipeline health. He explains how sales managers should move beyond metrics like coverage ratios and instead diagnose pipeline challenges by looking at value, volume, velocity, and deal shape.