Gospel Reverb | Grace Communion International Resources

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Jane Williams—Year A Epiphany 4-Easter Prep 1 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Jane Williams. Jane is the McDonald Professor of Christian Theology at St. Mellitus College. She helped to found St. Mellitus before being appointed to professor. She previously taught in both university and theological college settings and has traveled extensively within the Anglican communion, lecturing and preaching. And she has a particular interest in the flourishing of women within God’s church. Jane, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time with us, we’d like to know you a little bit, your story, and especially, what has you experiencing delight these days? [00:01:34] Jane: What a lovely question, Anthony, and thank you so much for the infinite invitation to be with you. It’s a real joy. And I think particularly it’s a joy for me. I’m a lay person. I don’t regularly preach, but I do love to write about the lectionary and do that quite a lot. I’ve written quite a lot of lectionary reflections and I’m always amazed at how there’s always fresh insight to come out of Scripture. You think you’ve read it so many times, but it’s always fresh. It’s wonderful. [00:02:00] Anthony: Yeah. [00:02:00] Jane: What would you like to know about me? I’m a daughter of missionary parents. I was born and brought up in South India, which, as you know, has a very ancient Christian tradition of its own. They believe their church was founded by the Apostle Thomas. And so, I suppose I’ve always grown up in a Christian world that is bigger than any one denomination and always felt a very strong call to mission. But also, both my parents taught in a theological college in India, so I’m afraid theology runs through my DNA, totally. And I married a theologian as well, so there’s no escaping it. [00:02:41] Anthony: Yes. [00:02:42] Jane: So, in terms of that lovely end to your question about experiencing delight in these days — I mean on really different levels — I’m a grandma, which I love. And about to be … our daughter is about to produce a second grandchild. And that is such a really glorious role to have in relation to one’s grandchildren. So, that’s given me huge delight. I’m also in the process this semester of teaching a course on doctrine, particularly centering around the Nicene Creed. Why do we describe God like this? And it’s a real joy to see students putting together things that they know and always believed and prayed and interacted with in the character of God. But putting it together and getting a bigger and bigger and bigger picture of how glorious God is. That kind of teaching is a great joy. [00:03:38] Anthony: Isn’t it a joy to know that we are in a grand story that is carried on long before us and will go long after us as the creeds teach us. Jane: Absolutely. Anthony: That we’re a part of. And I celebrate your grandchildren. I have one grandchild who is showing up at our door today. I haven’t seen her in weeks, so I am living in a day of delight myself. So, it is wonderful that … Jane: I’m trying not to keep you talking for too long. You’re going to go be grandpa. Anthony: There you go. You mentioned you have a particular interest in the flourishing of women within God’s church. And from my perspective, so does Jesus. So, what does it look like for women to flourish in the church, and what guidance would you give to church leaders who desire the same? [00:04:25] Jane: I sort of feel it’d be lovely to stop having to have this conversation, wouldn’t it? And I think I would want to say, for women to flourish it’s the same as for anybody to flourish, which is to be allowed to really show the gifts that God has given them and share them. So, I think it’s to be attended to as a human being and not stereotyped constantly. Women are as different as men are and have the different gifts to offer. And so, I suppose to leaders who want to help women flourish, I think it is that great gift of attention — actually pay attention to the person in front of you. Let them narrate themselves. Don’t make assumptions about who they are based on their gender, because I think we waste so much of what people have to offer by making assumptions about what that is and what it isn’t. So, just let people be who they are as much as you can, and enable that. [00:05:28] Anthony: Yeah, it made me think, Jane, what you said — I think it was a quote from Lesslie Newbigin that talked about how we are shaped by what we attend to. And if we attend to people, human beings, and desire to flourish, and then, all boats will rise. We’ll all float. And I’m just thankful that you’re shining the light on this particular subject. It’s a subject that we have tried to attend to within our own denominational tribe and it’s exciting to see women flourishing in many ways within our context. And I give praise to God for that. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: What a beautiful gift it is. [00:06:06] Jane: It’s such a helpful thing to say as well, Anthony, because there isn’t just a limited amount of attention to go around. It grows, doesn’t it? As we attend to each other, we grow in our capacity to attend and be attended to. It’s a generous gift, as you would expect as a gift of God. [00:06:25] Anthony: Amen. Amen. Let’s dive into the lectionary text that we’ll be discussing for this month. Our first pericope is 1 Corinthians 1:18–31. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fourth Sunday after Epiphany, February 1. For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of the proclamation, to save those who believe. 22 For Jews ask for signs and Greeks desire wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to gentiles, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength. 26 Consider your own call, brothers and sisters: not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, things that are not, to abolish things that are, 29 so that no one might boast in the presence of God. 30 In contrast, God is why you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 in order that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” Amen. Jane, if you were proclaiming this particular text to a congregation, what would be the focus of your proclamation? [00:08:39] Jane: It’s Paul being really quite rude about the people he’s writing to, isn’t it? It’s quite fun to notice that he’s gently undermining them constantly in what he says about them: “not many of you are wise.” But clearly, from what we read about the Corinthians, they did think they were wise. It is partly helping them turn their own judgments on their heads as it were. But I think if I were to focus on one specific thing, I think it would be verse 30. God is why you are in “Christ Jesus who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” All of those things are gifts from God. Clearly the Corinthians, like so many of us, so much of the time, think that the wisdom and the righteousness and the sanctification and the redemption are our own doing. We’ve earned it in some way. And this is just putting it so clearly that they are gifts from God given to us as we are in Christ Jesus. The sort of sheer liberating generosity of God in that that allows us to put ourselves down, let go of all our hangups about ourselves, let go of our self-posturing and so on, and simply be grateful for the action of God. It is extraordinary, isn’t it, to think about Paul so early on in the proclamation of the Christian gospel talking about being in Christ — that identity that is completely given to us in the action of God in Christ. [00:10:27] Anthony: God makes the first move. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And you talked about Paul’s undermining of the people, having a little fun with it. And so, I want to ask you — you’re a theologian, scholar, academic, you’re surrounded by theologians: So, how does this statement make you feel, that he’s chosen the foolish — and I’m being a bit facetious — but what is the good news there? [00:11:08] Jane: I think the good news certainly for me is that it is I am never going to be the one who shows people the full reality of God. And I am too stupid and I’m glad to be so. Any God that I would be capable of completely describing and demonstrating to others will be too small a God. And so, this is again, just a wonderful releasing statement. We don’t have to be the ones who tell what God is like. God is more than capable of showing God’s self to us and demonstrating God’s reality. And so often that reality is counter-cultural and this foolishness of God that is actually the deep wisdom of the world, God as the One who gives God’s self constantly, who will do all that is needed to find us and bring us home, that extraordinary deep, deep wisdom that looks to us like foolishness because it’s so self-giving, so unselfish. And so, in my own experience as an academic and a lecturer, I’m constantly humbled by my students. They ask me questions every year that I’ve never thought about. And every year they go on highlighting to me their willingness to offer their lives in the service of the gospel and for the love of God. And they teach me endlessly. I’m glad to be a foolish theologian. [00:12:22] Anthony: Ha, ha, is that on your business card, Jane? Is that what you hand out? Jane: It should be, shouldn’t it. Anthony: I love the idea of being a lifelong learner. And there’s always something to learn from others, even those that are not as seasoned, let’s say as you are. That’s a gift. I’m just so humbled and grateful that you see it that way with your students. [00:12:45] Jane: You should thank them, not me. [00:12:47] Anthony: You know what? That’s true. That is true. Let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 5:13-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fifth Sunday after Epiphany on February 8. Jane, would you read it for us please? [00:13:09] Jane: You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything but is thrown out and trampled under foot. 14 You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. 15 People do not light a lamp and put it under the bushel basket; rather, they put it on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven. 17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. [00:14:25] Anthony: I’m interested in your exegesis on this statement, “you are the light of the world.” And my curiosity goes to this place: In what ways is the Church of Jesus embodying this reality? And in what ways is the light diminished under a basket? [00:14:45] Jane: Ooh! Such a good question. That phrase always takes me back to Isaiah, there in Isaiah 2, that glorious vision of God’s city on a hill and all the people streaming to it. And it’s one that Isaiah returns to more than once throughout the whole prophetic book, that the role of the people of God is to show, is to lift up God so that people can see God. And I think that our primary calling as church is to remember that it’s about God. It seems such an obvious thing to say. But it needs saying over and over and over again. There is no point in the church if that point is not God. [00:15:39] Anthony: Preach. [00:15:41] Jane: So, we really pour so much of our energies into structures and programs and things to keep our own systems going. And all of that is wasted if it’s not primarily about God. And so, I think the ways in which we embody this reality are often ways that we hardly notice. It is a miracle, isn’t it, that the people of God, the Church, continue, because left to our own devices, we mess it up so constantly. Anthony: Amen. Jane: And yet God continues to be faithful to us and enable us to keep coming back to God in Christ, in the power of the Spirit. Keep proclaiming the good news despite our own failures to believe it sometimes. And so, I think this passage makes me remember that our primary calling is not so that we should have a nice spirituality and a lovely prayer life, but so that we should be there as witnesses to the reality of God. And I think we do that in some ways and in so many other ways we do diminish it. We put it under a basket. And I’m no great guru, but it seems to me one of the ways in which we hide that light under a basket is by making our faith something individual. This is about me and God. Whereas, throughout Scripture, you can just see everything God gives, God gives to be shared. So, if we have the great privilege of coming to know God in Christ, that experience of the reality of God is always to be shared. Let’s not put it under any baskets. [00:17:30] Anthony: That is so good, Jane, what you just said. We, especially here in the American West, we’re hyper-individualistic in our approach to things. And I never read of a faith that is privatized. It’s personal, no doubt, but never privatized. It’s always about the community. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: Yeah. You mentioned about remembering and how forgetful we are sometimes to remember it’s about God. I was just thinking this morning in reading through Exodus, just how the people of God, the chosen Israelites, just continue to forget about God’s faithfulness. Whether it was his provision of food, whether it’s provision of light at night, whatever it was, they were just soon forgetting. And it’s so easy to say, look at those guys. They just mess it up over and over again. And then it’s, oh, that’s what I do. [00:18:23] Jane: Yes, exactly. Exactly. It’s so much easier to see it in other people, isn’t it, than in ourselves! [00:18:27] Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. And so, in that way, remembering is actually a sacred and holy thing that we do. It’s a spiritual discipline because it reminds us of the hope that we have in Christ. For sure. [00:18:40] Jane: I quote this whenever I’m allowed to Anthony, but this is a quote from the great writer on mysticism, Evelyn Underhill, and she said, “God is the interesting thing about religion.” [00:18:53] Anthony: Ooh. [00:18:55] Jane: And we keep forgetting that. We keep thinking we are the interesting thing or the ideas that we have are the interesting thing. But actually, God is the interesting thing about religion. [00:19:03] Anthony: That is so good! Jane: Isn’t it? Anthony: I’ll put that in the show notes. Thank you. You didn’t ask for permission, but I’m sure glad you went for it. Jesus said, “Let your light shine so others may see your good works, and then give glory to the Father.” But it seems to me that we’re so often shining a spotlight in such a way that it’s giving glory to ourselves. It just seems that the spotlight isn’t a very good guiding light at all. So, how do we shine a light, Jane, in such a way to give glory to the Father? [00:19:38] Jane: It’s a really tricky one, isn’t it, Anthony? Because the Gospels and Christian history are full of God giving us examples. So, seemingly, God putting the spotlight on particular people so that we can see a Christian life lived in the realities of this world. I’m doing some work on the great women mystics of the Christian past. And they are sort of heroes, that we know about them because people have needed to see the spotlight on them, to give us a sense of what we’re capable of, what with each other’s help we are able to do in our life of faith. So, we do need some spotlights, I think. But I think what’s interesting about that process is that on the whole, those people didn’t shine the spotlight on themselves. They offered themselves and their life and their teaching and their prayers to others, and others thought, I really need more people to see this. So, the spotlighting came from others rather than from the individuals themselves. And so, I suppose that’s what I would suggest to us — that what we are trying to do always is to look at people who help us to see more and more what a human being, living in the love of God looks like. And so, the best way we can do that is that all of us, with our spotlights, shining it on people who’ve helped us to be where we are, who helped us in our journey of faith. And then, perhaps, trying to shine the light forward, back, whichever way you’d want to think about it, so that the people who come after us can see that light, see that there are patterns of living that are lit up with the love of God. I think, yeah, I suppose my reservation would always be somebody who spots spotlights themselves. [00:21:47] Anthony: Yeah. I think a proclaimer of the gospel, especially those that preach in a local church setting, you have a choice each and every time. Who’s the hero here? Jane: Yeah. Anthony: Who gets the attention. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And I just believe if it’s done well, the congregation doesn’t leave talking about the preacher. They’re talking about God. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: Look what God did. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And like you said, we see those patterns of Christlike living in others, and we want to spotlight them. But like you said, it comes from someone else, not themselves. [00:22:23] Jane: And it’s so difficult to get that balance, isn’t it? [00:22:26] Anthony: Yeah. [00:22:26] Jane: Because preachers rightly tell stories about themselves because they want people to see the lived life. But if you come out of church, as you say, and all you remember is the story about a preacher, probably that didn’t work so well. [00:22:40] Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. This is a side conversation in some ways, but one of the mistakes I made early on in preaching ministry was if I told a story about myself, Jane — and I hate to confess this — but I was always the hero. I was always doing things well. And it took a long time to realize, who am I pointing the light to when I do that? And so, I don’t do that anymore. And we’re works in progress, are we not, Jane? Jane: We’re all works. Anthony: Maybe you’ve arrived, but I haven’t arrived. [00:23:16] Jane: I have not arrived. I always take great comfort from the fact that Augustine of Hippo got into great trouble for writing confessions, because people around him thought, that’s not what a church … that church leaders shouldn’t show themselves, warts and all. Church leaders should show heroic Christian living. But Augustine’s work has lived on, because he showed himself in pursuit of God and God in pursuit of Augustine. And that’s what we need to see. [00:23:44] Anthony: Yeah. That’s so good. It reminded me of … a mentor said this to me once, and I think it’s a good way of thinking about mentorship and discipleship. People need to know far more than your ministry highlight reel. They need to know where you’ve struggled. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And just be let into, to kind of pull the curtain back so they can see really, what does the life look like in faithfulness to God, as God is faithful to them. Okay, let’s transition to the next pericope. It’s Matthew 17:1-9. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Transfiguration Sunday, February 15. Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain, by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became bright as light. 3 Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you wish, I will set up three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell to the ground and were overcome by fear. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Get up and do not be afraid.” 8 And when they raised their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus himself alone. 9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, “Tell no one about the vision until after the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.” Speaking of letting your light shine: Transfiguration Sunday. It’s celebrated annually on the Christian calendar, and I’m curious what makes this mountain-side experience worthy of such an annual reminder? [00:25:45] Jane: I think we always want to pay attention to something that the Gospels really highlight for us. And Matthew, Mark, and Luke, all tell us this story of Jesus’ transfiguration. And so, as we enter into this story, we are doing that in the company of people who have heard it from the first century onwards, who’ve heard this story as one that deepens our understanding of God in Christ and therefore deepens our own Christian calling. I think, for me, what’s really striking is that it is the reiteration of God the Father’s affirmation of the Son at baptism. And then this reaffirmation here in the Transfiguration. If the baptism is Jesus is total identification with us in our humanity, entering down into the waters of chaos to be reborn as the One chosen and called by God, this is Jesus’s reaffirmation in the love of the Father as he heads towards his death. So, a really pivotal moment in the gospel stories where Jesus’ identification now is going to go even deeper. Jesus is going to come into death for our sake, so that there, Jesus will find him. And it’s a most profound place for the Father to say to the Son, “you’re my beloved” again, in the hearing of those who know Jesus and love Jesus. And for us to hear that, those words that Jesus takes with him to the cross as he heads towards Jerusalem now in the final ending on the cross, a really, really significant grounding of that call to be with us even into death in the love of the Father. [00:27:49] Anthony: I imagine when Peter and James and John were going up on the Mount and they did not have on their bingo card, so to speak, that Moses and Elijah were going show up. Jane: No. Anthony: And I’m curious. What, if anything, should we take from that? Is it significant? Is it just an afterthought? What’s going on here? [00:28:06] Jane: I think it’s clearly theologically deeply significant that these are two absolutely outstanding narrators of the character of God, Moses and Elijah, in what we call the Old Testament scriptures. Moses, the one to whom God entrusts the law, that is to shape his people’s life so that they may live out of God’s own character, God’s self-given character in the law. Elijah, the one who’s constantly calling the people back to faith, to God’s faithfulness to them and their faithfulness to God. So, the law and the prophets here shown as witnessing to Jesus. So, the creed calls the Holy Spirit, the One who speaks through the prophets. And I think you get throughout the New Testament, you get this sense of God’s, the faithful continuous arc of God’s company, God’s faithfulness to us, God’s presence, God’s narration of God’s self to us. And Jesus is the fulfillment of that. Moses and Elijah are clearly secondary, you might say. They’re saying they’re like the Father, saying, “Look at this. Look at Jesus. When you want to know about God, look at Jesus.” And yet that’s not a writing off, it’s not a wiping out of the way God has always interacted with God’s people, but a culmination of it in Jesus Christ that we’re seeing here. So, huge theological significance. And reminds us how important it is for us as Christians to pay attention to the whole of scripture. And not just the New Testament, but the whole of God’s interaction with people from and creation through to fulfillment. [00:29:58] Anthony: And thinking of Jesus being left alone in terms of Moses and Elijah appearing no longer and God saying, “Listen to him.” And it reminded me of something one of your colleagues said to me, “Jesus is the highest resolution image of God that we have.” Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And it’s a lovely way to think of it, that in him, the fullness of deity was pleased to dwell. God self-reveals and it’s glorious. [00:30:29] Jane: And it’s incredibly moving, isn’t it? That quite rightly, the disciples are terrified. And Jesus reaches out and touches the sister God who reaches out in our reality and touches us. So, their fear and awe were proper. They were in the presence of the Shekinah, the great Presence, the glorious presence of God. And yet that glorious presence comes to find us in a human form to enable us to be touched where we really are. [00:31:03] Anthony: One of the things that has always struck me about this text is the ending. [00:31:08] Jane: Yeah. [00:31:09] Anthony: They came back down the mountain. Peter was so overwhelmed by the experience, he’s, “Let’s hang out here. Let’s build some tabernacles and just stay up here on the mountain.” But life gets lived in the ordinary, mundane, common. Anything you want to say about that? I know you said you have a heart for mission. I’m just thinking that through with this text. [00:31:30] Jane: It is at the heart, isn’t it, of everything that Jesus shows us about God is that God comes to find us. And so, our spirituality is not removed from reality. We are not called to step out of the world and become people who have no interaction with day-to-day living but actually to follow Jesus into the reality of the world around us. And I love Peter. I think Peter so often blurts out what each of us would say. But we always wait for a Peter to say it for us. [00:32:10] Anthony: That’s right. [00:32:11] Jane: And so that longing to stay where we are, especially in a moment of glorious worship or encounter or something like that. But those moments are given to us so that we can take the good news into the whole world. [00:32:29] Anthony: Amen and amen. Our final pericope of the month is Matthew 4:1-11. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the First Sunday in Lent, February 22. Jane, please do the honors. [00:32:47] Jane: Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tested by the devil. 2 He fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was famished. 3 The tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered, “It is written, ‘One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 saying to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, ‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and ‘On their hands they will bear you up, so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.’” 7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! for it is written, ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.’” 11 Then the devil left him, and suddenly angels came and waited on him. [00:34:06] Anthony: I so enjoy listening to you read. What is it about the Brits when they read? It just sounds so inviting and intelligent. Jane: But that’s what we feel when you read. Anthony: This is quite a text, is it not? And we’d be interested to know, if you were teaching it, what would you teach? [00:34:27] Jane: I love this text and because I’ve written a number of small reflective books for Lent, it’s a text that I’ve written about and prayed about and pondered over in all kinds of different ways. I would start by noticing that it is the work of the Spirit to take Jesus into the wilderness, we are told. And therefore, Jesus goes trustingly into this hard testing place. And he goes to find out. Remember this story immediately follows the baptism of Jesus, where he’s heard the voice of the Father saying, “Oh, my beloved Son.” He’s felt the presence in the Spirit upon him. And then he’s driven out into the wilderness. And it is as though we see Jesus really confronting what it is to be told that he is the Son of God. What does it mean for Jesus to be the Son of God in this world and for us and for our salvation? And the tempter is giving Jesus all the pictures that we would normally have of what it would be like to be the Son of God: the kind of power, the kind of safety, and the sense of God taking care of us, people admiring Jesus, that all of these kingdoms could be yours. That’s so much of what, left to our own devices, we think is important about the world — those kind of attributes. And over and over and over again, Jesus is able to reject them. And we see Jesus’ sonship really taking shape, I think, and these temptations. And these temptations are what are going to enable Jesus when it comes to that terrible moment in Gethsemane to say, “Not what I will, but what you will,” because we see Jesus becoming through and through and through the person who will, under all circumstances, be the Son of God. And I think that’s what I find it incredibly moving: to see this description of Jesus in the wilderness, allowing the Scriptures, allowing the Spirit, allowing the Father to shape what it will mean for Jesus to be the Son of God in his ministry, in life, and in death. And as I say, I think these choices are the ones that enable Jesus to be always, under all circumstances, Son of the Father. That’s Jesus’ most basic self-definition. [00:37:07] Anthony: You pointed out that the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness. And the wilderness shows up time and time again in Scripture in both testaments over 300 times. And it’s a significant metaphor and situation that we face in this world. What is the wilderness and why is it so important in Scripture? [00:37:30] Jane: I suppose I come at it primarily as a doctrine and history scholar rather than necessarily a biblical scholar. And it’s fascinating to see, for example, in the work of the early monastic movement, the desert fathers and mothers. And that movement was just as Christianity was beginning to get a bit more comfortable, a bit more settled in the world — that movement of people being led by the Spirit out into the wilderness again. And they see it very much as a place for doing battle with the devil as we see Jesus doing here in this particular story. Because here in the wilderness the devil is much more noticeable because there are few other distractions. And so, the desert fathers and mothers are very deliberately taking on, you might say the battle between good and evil for their own sake, but also for the sake of others. As even more so, obviously, Jesus here in this account is overcoming the devil so that he can be the one who fulfills God’s calling to him. And so that really important sense of doing battle with the things that are preventing us from being who we are called to be, I think, is one of the big wilderness symbols because so much of our life is so distracted. It is so easy not to notice the things that are actually holding us in through all the things that are taking up all our time and energy, the things that we, whether we would call it worship or not, the things to which we give the best of ourselves. They’re so insidious all around us that I think these wilderness times, whether actually physically going out into a place of quiet and retreat or the hard times that we hit, are times for really reevaluating and reminding ourselves that our most basic calling, that the only thing that can truly fulfill us is to be the children of God that we are called to be. So, taking Jesus’ example and constantly saying God first, God first, God first. [00:40:03] Anthony: God first. That’s a great way to segue into what I was going to say. God first. I was going to mention how, from my vantage point, theology is enormously important and it’s an understatement even saying it that way. Jane: Sure. Anthony: Because it shapes how we see everything, the way that we think and talk about God. And I am of the opinion, if theology doesn’t lead us to greater worship and devotion, we’ve missed the point. It’s not just knowledge. It is about worship of this living God. So, as a final word, would you do us the honor of just heralding the good news that you see in this text about Jesus Christ who reveals the heart of God? [00:40:51] Jane: What we see in Jesus is the lengths to which God will go to be God for us and to come and find us. When Paul says in Romans 8, nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, that is because God will not let anything separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And that’s what we see in this passage. It’s Jesus’ complete open identification with the task that God the Father has given him and which he has received with generosity and openness to be God for us. “For us and for our salvation” as the creed says, and that willingness on God’s part to identify with us when we are so often unwilling to be the human beings that God longs for us to be. It’s one of those extraordinary mirror images, isn’t it, that God is willing to be a human being and so that we can be the human beings we are called to be. But we don’t want to be human beings. We want to be gods. That’s the Genesis pattern that echoed in this wilderness account, that we know Jesus is really God because Jesus is willing to be God for us and not for himself. [00:42:18] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. Jane, I’m so grateful that you joined us. I didn’t mention this to you, I don’t believe, but my wife and I, Elizabeth and I were sitting in a workshop session at the Duke Divinity Initiative of Theology and Arts, and you were one of the panel presenters about how art can be a gift in the midst of suffering. And I sat there and I was so drawn to the wisdom that you taught with, the humility. And one thing I said to Elizabeth as we drove home that day is your precision of language. Your language was so informed by your experience with the Lord. I was struck by it and I thought, oh, I want to have her on the podcast. And fact that you said yes was such a delight. So, thank you so much for joining us. [00:43:14] Jane: Thank you for the invitation. [00:43:15] Anthony: Yes, of course. And I also want to thank our team, Reuel and Enerio, Michelle Hartman, and Elizabeth Mullins. This would not be possible without them. What a wonderful group of people to work with. And as is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb. We’d like to end with the word of prayer. So, Jane, would you pray for us please, as we close? [00:43:32] Jane: It would be such a pleasure. Come, Holy Spirit, and open the Scriptures to us. Say that we may see Jesus. Come, Holy Spirit, and pray in us, Abba Father, so that we may be sisters and brothers of the Son, daughters and sons of the Father. I pray in particular for all who read these texts that Anthony and I have been discussing — all who ponder them or who preach them or who try to live them — that every word will be filled with presence of the Spirit. With the joy of the Spirit and with the call to proclaim God who comes to find us, God who is for us, God who will let nothing separate us from his loving Christ Jesus, may these words come alive afresh as each person reads from ponders them and proclaims them. We pray this in the precious name of Jesus. Amen. Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Jane Williams—Year A Epiphany 4-Easter Prep 1 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Brian Zahnd, founding pastor and theologian of Word of Life Church and author of multiple books, joins to reflect on scripture and ministry. He shares stories from 44 years of pastoring and why the lectionary shapes preaching. Conversations range from the Trinity as a house of love to the meaning of baptism, John the Baptist’s humility, and how the cross upends worldly power.

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Paul Young. Paul is the author of the New York Times bestseller book, The Shack. It sold over 20 million copies worldwide — that number’s just hard to fathom. His other books included Eve, Crossroads, and Lies We Believe About God. Paul, thanks for being with us. Welcome to the podcast, and it’s your first time with us. So, we want to know how in the world are you? How’s your family? And maybe if you’re willing to, give us some insights on the projects you’re currently working on. [00:01:23] Paul: Anthony, it’s great to be with you. I so appreciate it. Actually, my whole life is led up to this moment, so why would I want to be anywhere else? Anthony: Amen. Paul: Family’s good. We now have 17 grandchildren … Anthony: 17! Paul: I know. Weird, right? And we’re probably … [00:01:44] Anthony: Do you have a favorite? [00:01:46] Paul: The one that I’m thinking about at any given moment. [00:01:49] Anthony: There you go. Good answer. [00:01:51] Paul: It’s the true answer, just like when somebody asks you about which of your children do you love the most? And it’s like, right at this moment, it’s X because I’m thinking about him or her. Anthony: Yeah. Paul: And I love that. I love that each child brings with them a space they put in your heart that only they can fill. And it’s like that I have that space inside of Jesus, inside the Trinity, and I’m the only one that can fill it. So, that’s a great place of rest for us all. So, family’s good. Lots of little projects and big projects. I’ve just finished writing the sequel for The Shack and they’re going to announce it this month sometime. [00:02:46] Anthony: Oh, and is this breaking news? Are we the first to hear this? Paul: Oh, kind of. Anthony: All right, world. You heard it. [00:02:55] Paul: Yep. Yep. You heard it here. But they plan to release the book in October 2026 for a lot of different reasons. One is that they want to do a global release in terms of English and other languages at the same time, which is … I didn’t even know they did that kind of stuff. And it’s pretty fun. I’m working on a large musical stage production of the Shack that’ll Anthony: Come on. Paul: Oh, I know. I love live theater. And so, it’s rapping, modern music, with a libretto, which was my first time ever writing one of those. So, it was a great learning curve. I worked with Janice Patel, who is an American soprano who lives in Germany most of the time. And then, we’ve got some great creative talent. We might have a partnership with a community of people that put out huge choirs. But we’ll see. It’s a work in progress. We’ve been working on it for three years already, and it will probably launch in 2028 and in Germany, in the German speaking world before it then moves out from there. But that’s pretty cool. [00:04:16] Anthony: That is. Oh, and before we started recording, you were actually singing. Do you want to give us a bit of a rendition on this music? This is your opportunity, your stage, sir. [00:04:30] Paul: I’m not in this thing and for good reason. I could … never mind. That’s in the works. I’ve got some more book projects that are at different stages of creation. But here’s what’s cool, Anthony. I don’t need any of these things. My identity is not in a book. It’s not in a movie. And so, that was one of the best things about writing The Shack is that by the time I wrote it, the real important things were in place to me. And I didn’t intend to write it for the world. I just wrote it for my six kids as a Christmas present. And made my 15 copies at Office Depot, because they had a sale going on. And I gave it to my kids for Christmas and then extras to my friends and they gave it to their friends and those friends wanted to give it to their friends. And that’s started a chain reaction. But the things that were in place were things like identity and worth and value, significance, security, meaning, purpose, destiny — whatever that means, community, and love. And so, I didn’t need it. Thank God! And I mean that very literally. Anthony: I think you do. Paul: Because I’ve watched notoriety and platform and things like that just mess with people big time. It’s a cross. Anthony: Yes. Paul: And the one gift that it did give me was — and my family and my friends — The Shack became a doorway. It became an invitation to walk, to enter and walk on the holy ground of other people’s story. And I’m using the metaphor from Moses seeing a burning bush in the wilderness and he ends up taking his shoes off because it’s holy ground. The beauty is that every single person you ever meet is a burning bush. Anthony: Yes. Paul: The presence of God is in them, burning away — which is what love does — burns away everything in them that is not of love’s kind and that prevents them from being fully human and fully alive. So, I believe that God is a fiery fury, but that that is always aimed at that which keeps the child from being fully human and fully alive. And so, it’s not aimed at the child. And we know that. If we have any kind of a healthy relationship with our children and we are healthy ourselves, that our fury is not aimed at the child. It’s aimed at that which is harming them. And I think that’s the nature of the love of God. The early church saw it as a doctor in a hospital, not a litigator in a courtroom or a judge in a courtroom. That came with our ancestry of lawyers like Augustine and Luther and Calvin. They were all lawyers. And so, they came up with what, traditionally, is called forensic theology, law room theology. But that’s not how the early church saw it at all. It was a doctor in a hospital, and, of course, you want to go see the doctor in the hospital to judge you. Of course you do, because you want to know why you’re sick. And then, you want that judge, that doctor, to then what punish you? Yeah, with a cast or with chemo or whatever. The whole goal of that profession is to heal you. And the whole goal of the love of God is to restore and heal you. [00:08:05] Anthony: Yeah. And thanks be to God that this physician also became the patient. Paul: The great physician. Anthony: Oh, yes, he is. And he became the patient to heal us inside out. Paul: Absolutely. Anthony: Oh, what a gift. Paul: Oh my gosh. Yes. Anthony: And you’re talking about the follow up to The Shack and so this is probably appropriate timing to ask you this. I looked it up: 18 years since The Shack was published. Paul: I know. Anthony: And I still recall the first time I read it. It rocked my world. And I can only imagine in some ways how it changed yours. But you just reflected on, it didn’t change the most important things. But I just want to invite you to take a moment to reflect and maybe share a story or two of the impact that work had on people that you’ve met around the world. [00:08:55] Paul: Man. I mean, there are literally thousands that I know of. And who knows what kind of ripple effect it had. Again, I didn’t know what was going to happen with this thing. I only knew that this was a way to, one, submit to my wife who wanted me to write something, she said, as a gift for our kids. One day later, she told me she was thinking four to six pages, but she didn’t tell me that. And so, she said, “You know, you think outside the box and I think it would be a good thing.” So, that’s why I did it. And none of this is anything that I could have even imagined. So, walking on the holy ground of other … you know, every human being is a story. So, the fact that The Shack has found a way inside so many people’s hearts and lives and changed things in terms of perspective. It’s raised the bar on our theology, because a lot of us had a God that actually wasn’t worth trusting. I had a missionary kid friend email me and say, When I was growing up, I couldn’t really tell the difference between God and Satan, except with Satan, I just knew where I stood. Anthony: Hmm. Wow. Paul: I know. Let’s see, a story. I spoke and then there was a book signing. And when this first started, I had no clue about how do you even sign books. But I could never sit behind a table. It just never worked for me. I mean, how can you hug anybody from behind a table? Anthony: Good word. Paul: But I’m standing in front of this table and this couple comes up and they start putting photographs down on the table. And they told me that about three years prior to this, their early-twenties-something daughter had been killed by a drunk driver going the wrong way down a one way. An only child. Devastated them, especially the mom. And she couldn’t climb out of the hole. She just was stuck. They’d never heard of The Shack or anything like that. But finally, in sort of desperation, the husband said, “There are two states next to us. Why don’t we just go explore, just get away from here.” Because every time something came up, it just knocked her back into the abyss. And so, they decided to do that, take about two weeks, and just explore places, just drive. And they were, somewhere around a week or a little more, they were in some little town that they’d never heard of and got a bed and breakfast. In the morning, the husband said, “You know, why don’t we just a put together a lunch and go find a picnic table at some park” — because every town, you would think, would have a park — “and then have our lunch.” She said, “Great idea.” So, they packed up all their stuff and they went into town, around the town, looking for a park, and they couldn’t find one. They were doing these concentric circles. Finally, they were driving. The town was small and they were outside of town, and they decided to just drive around on these roads. About an hour later, the husband says, “Why don’t we just go back to our bed and breakfast and put our little plastic tablecloth on the table in our room and have our camping lunch?” And she said, “No, why don’t we just go down this road” — paved road, and by then they’re outside the town. This is Midwest stuff and there are big, huge fields, hardly any houses. If there were, they were set way back. And she said, “Let’s go down here.” So, they go five or six miles and then she says, “Let’s take that road,” a dirt road that went just off to one side. And so, they took that road for about a couple miles and suddenly the husband goes, “Look!” And he’s pointing at a field, nothing in it, but a picnic table right in the middle of this field, way behind where it was a fence, no houses, nothing. But there was a little outbuilding near the fence. So, they pulled all their stuff out and they go walk over to what they thought was a picnic table. And they’re showing me photos of all this, right? Putting them on the table. And it wasn’t a picnic table. It was actually probably the last thing remaining from a house that used to be there, probably burned down, and then all the wood taken away for something else. But it was the concrete steps that went up to just a flat surface. And they’re like, “Closest thing to a picnic table we’ve seen.” So, they laid out their little plastic thing and their plastic wear and the food that they had put together, sandwiches and stuff. And they started eating. They finished, or they weren’t quite finished, but the wife says, “You see that little building over there? There’s a sign, oval sign above the door, but I can’t make it out.” He says, “I’ll walk over and tell you what it says.” So, he does, and he comes back and he says, “All it says is The Shack.” And means nothing to them. They go, “Oh.” They pack up their stuff, heading back to the car, and suddenly the wife stops and she says, “I’m going to go in there.” He goes, like, “Go in where?” She says, “That little building over there. I’m going to go in there, The Shack.” And he says, “I don’t think that might be a good idea, because somebody might be in there and you don’t want to disturb anybody suddenly.” And she says, “You go to the car, I’m going go into The Shack.” So, he follows her. She’s just determined. She gets to it, and they have pictures, right? The little oval sign that was above the door that says, The Shack. And she just goes in. She doesn’t even knock. It’s just four walls. And on one side there’s a desk. And on the desk, there’s a signup sheet and a little sheet that had big printing instructions. And then to the right of that, there’s a book they’d never heard of. And the little instructions sheet just said, “Take whatever you need.” And they look at this signup sheet and people from all over the United States had come there and they signed their names and where they were from. And she holds up this book and she said, “Your book saved my life.” And she’s just bawling. Somebody got a nudge from the Holy Spirit to have copies available to whoever happened to come by. [00:15:33] Anthony: No way. [00:15:34] Paul: Yeah. Isn’t that wild? [00:15:35] Anthony: That’s unreal. [00:15:36] Paul: And they had a picture of the signup sheet. They had a picture of everything, and they just got a nudge. And people came from all over the United States and found this little outbuilding in the middle of nowhere and copies of The Shack. [00:15:55] Anthony: I’m speechless. It’s this — that sounds like you made it up. Paul: I know. Anthony: It’s so good. And really isn’t that the truth about what people believe about God? You got to be making that up. He just can’t be that good. [00:16:09] Paul: Yeah. Part of it is that, that we were trained in the modern world to not trust the living Father, Son and Holy Spirit that dwell within us. We lost that when the experts started taking over what God was saying and they were just waving the Bible around and saying, “We’re trained in this, so we know what God is saying and you need to listen to us because who knows, if you think God is talking to you probably will do something stupid.” And the reality is we were told a lot of stupid things based on people’s perspective and biases. And it didn’t help. And there’s a lot of great things. I love experts in what they do, but we were told a lot of lies and we didn’t have the sense that we could hear the Holy Spirit for ourselves. That’s changing. That’s changed. [00:16:59] Anthony: Yeah. I thank God for that sale at Office Depot or wherever it was that you printed this book, because it has been such a gift to me, to millions around the world. I grew up with this idea that Jesus could be tender. He could wash feet. He could sit with a woman all day at a well. He could go to Jairus’s house in great mercy. But I had a real issue with God the Father being tender. Paul: Yeah, me too. Anthony: I could see him holy. I could see him righteous. I could see him aloof. I could see him really constantly mildly disappointed, but to think of him as tender. Oh, that was radical. Radical change. [00:17:46] Paul: For sure. We somehow forgot that Jesus would say things like, “If you’ve seen the Father.” You’ve actually — “if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” “I and the Father are one.” And I did what a lot of people have done who have not grown up with a good father. My dad was a good man, but he was so broken, he didn’t know how to raise a child. And so, he was a hitter, and I painted the face of God with the face of my own dad. And it took a lot of years for me to get out from under what you’re talking about and begin to realize, oh my gosh, there’s not two gods here. Yes, there’s only one. And Jesus is the face of that God. [00:18:31] Anthony: I can hear your friend Brian Zahnd saying, “Jesus is like the Father. The Father is like Jesus. We’ve not always known this, but now we do.” And it changes everything, doesn’t it? It radically changes everything. And we’re going to get into that in a bit too, about how theology is just so vitally important to the way that we see all things, the way that we live our lives. But, in one sense, Paul, I’m sorry you went through that with your father, but in another sense, I’m not. You’re here. It’s helped shape who you are and I’m so grateful that you have arrived at this moment. So … [00:19:08] Paul: Yeah. But what my father did was wrong. The Holy Spirit is a redeeming genius and climbs into our losses, doesn’t justify them, doesn’t say that the wrong is now the right, but out of the rubble, out of the ashes can create beauty. And that’s to be celebrated, that’s to be acknowledged. And there’s a deep gratitude for the redeeming genius in all of our lives. [00:19:42] Anthony: Amen and amen. All right, we’re here to talk about the lectionary text for this month. Our first passage of the month is Matthew 3:1–12. I’m going to be reading from the NRSVUE. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday of Advent, December 7, and it reads, In those days John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness of Judea, proclaiming, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” 3 This is the one of whom the prophet Isaiah spoke when he said, “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.’” 4 Now John wore clothing of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region around the Jordan were going out to him, 6 and they were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, bear fruit worthy of repentance, 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our ancestor,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is more powerful than I, and I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” So, it says the kingdom of heaven has come near. So said John the Baptist. And yet we just look out into the world. And I’m thinking about a podcast of viewers I just recently listened to that dealt with ideology and how it can be weaponized and just so much division and hurt and outrage. Was John the Baptist wrong? Is the kingdom of heaven near? And if so, help us see the reality, because this is what I believe: When theology is neglected, ideology rushes in to take its place, often cloaked in religious language. And that causes problems. And I know I’m hitting on a couple of subjects here, but just tell us about this kingdom of heaven that’s come near even in the face of so much adversity in the world. [00:22:25] Paul: I love the way that it’s written. It says, “The kingdom of heaven has come near. This is the one …” Anthony: Yes. Paul: The kingdom of heaven is as near to us as Jesus is. So, the identification here is between Jesus and the kingdom of heaven. And so, where is he? Was John the Baptist wrong? Absolutely not. But he identified the kingdom of heaven as the person of Jesus or the writer did. And so, where is Jesus? Where is the kingdom of heaven? Elsewhere it says “the kingdom of heaven is in you.” Jesus says, “On that day, you’ll know I’m in the Father, you are in me, and I am in you.” So, when it’s saying the kingdom of a heaven is at hand, John the Baptist, in terms of how this is written, has got a twinkle in his eye, and he’s like, “Ah, kingdom of heaven is near.” And that’s because Jesus is near. And so, right from the get go, we have to not think of the kingdom of heaven as a geographical place or as a nationalistic place or as any of those things that we get stuck on. But it’s a person. And that person dwells in you. In fact, that person dwells in every single person who has ever been conceived. Paul in Acts 17 says basically the same thing. And he’s announcing it to pagans. It’s like, “You are the children of God, and so you might seek him because he’s near.” And again, I think Paul had a twinkle in his eye. And so he is, he’s making the case, “You live and move and have your being in him.” And he’s talking about the same stuff. It’s like his Damascus Road verses, like when “God was pleased to reveal himself in me.” That’s his Damascus Road experience. That’s where he was blown away by the fact that Jesus, the kingdom of God, is in him. And he says, and now I preach him in the Gentiles. That’s the good news. Christ in you, right? So no, there’s no mistaking here. What we see in the world is not, it’s not ideology that has gone wrong. It’s the existence of ideology, period. The kingdom of God is not ideology. The tree of life is not ideology. The tree of being right, the knowledge of good and evil, the independent decision that something is wrong and something is right — that’s not the tree of life. So anytime you get stuck, we get stuck, I get stuck making a declaration about, this is evil and this is good, and taking a stance against it, I’m not eating of the tree of life, which is love and relationship. And that comes right down to our personal relationships, right down to the way that we love the person in front of us. And sometimes it’s harder to love a family member than it is to love a stranger. And I’m like, oh my gosh. I have been eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil most of my life. And the new Jerusalem, the city of God — in Hebrews 12, it has come. We are already a part of it. And it’s not a mountain full of fire and all of that. It is the kingdom of God, the new Jerusalem. It is the body of Christ. It is all of these metaphors. And the river of life comes from within it, outwardly, through the gates. And it’s the trees on either side of that river of life are for the healing of the nations, as well as the fruit are for the healing of the nations. That’s not ideology. And that city has no tree of the knowledge of good and evil in it. None whatsoever. That is the way the world functions. And I’m not talking about Paul. Are you saying that nothing is nothing is evil? Anything that is not love is not good. But that’s not what we do in our relationships. We declare, “I’m right. You’re wrong.” And we have to understand that ideology is religious ideology. My way of looking at God is right. Your way is wrong. So, my job is to change you. Well, if you’ve been around anybody that’s holding onto an ideology, you can argue until you’re dead. You’re not going to change them. And so, what changes anything? [00:27:28] Anthony: That’s right. [00:27:29] Paul: Love. The person in front of you does not need to know you’re right. They need to know that you love them. That’s the thing that is going to open up the heart, open up the world, and actually would change the world. Ideology just adds to the violence. And ideology exists because people are fearful. There is no fear in love, and we don’t need to have an ideology at all. Love is the place of power. Love is that which actually changes the world. Fear just compounds the evil that’s in the world. And so, I want to be done eating of the tree of being right. And we’re surrounded by so much information about so many things that we can do absolutely nothing about. And I was, like, stop. Just stop. If there is a person or situation that is right in front of you, respond to that because it’s real. All of this fear-based ideological stuff — it’s not real. It’s not eternal. Love is eternal, because love is the very nature of God who dwells in us. And this is why people are all indwelt by the full presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But God will not rip you through the bars of the prison you call home. That is not what love does. Love will climb into the place you are and love you until you’re ready to walk out of the prison. [00:29:11] Anthony: So, what I hear you saying is, the way that we can bear witness, faithful witness, to be a faithful expression of the Spirit who abides in us, is just to love the person in front of us. That’s the witness that the kingdom of heaven has come near. Is it not? [00:29:15] Paul: Yeah. And that’s the fruit. That’s what John the Baptist is going after. He’s going, like, repentance — that’s changing your mind. Look, if you’re saying your mind is changed, then bear fruit that matches it. Make sure that the ways of your being match the truth of who you are and the truth of who you are has got to be grounded in the very indwelling union that you have with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That’s eating from the tree of life. [00:29:45] Anthony: And wouldn’t you say that repentance is not a one and done kind of scenario, but it’s ongoing? Because, I mean, every day, Paul, it seems like I fall flat on my face on something and realize, oh, I had that wrong. And there’s just this perpetual nature of having our minds renewed. Don’t you think that’s how repentance works? [00:30:07] Paul: Yeah. It’s an ongoing process — in our fear and trembling work out our salvation. The salvation is once complete, finished. Jesus does not have to die again for anybody. God submits to us because God loves us. And this is a God who submits by nature, but continues to work in us. And we come to all this and in our fear and trembling, not about God, but just as the state of being human, we begin to work out with what has already been worked in. And so, it’s all about living from the inside out. And so, your mind is going to be changed and renewed and renewed and renewed. And what challenges you? Like somebody said to me, I’ve got it right here. They said they thought they were complete human beings and then they got married. I personally think marriage would be a lot simpler if there wasn’t another person involved. And but that’s the … [00:31:13] Anthony: You said it not me. [00:31:15] Paul: I know. Let me talk to you about your marriage and see what buttons got touched and poked at. The part of the reason we love our enemies is because they can bring crap to the surface in ways that our friends wouldn’t. And it’s like, oh, when I have this kind of a visceral response to that person, that’s the exposure, and that’s the Holy Spirit bringing things to the surface in order to heal us. And love your enemies. Turn the other … it’s all Sermon on the Mount stuff. [00:31:50] Anthony: Thank God that he is a healing God. And like you said, salvation — one and done. It’s finished, it’s complete. But Lord, continue to renew our minds. Metanoia our minds over and over again and remind us of your goodness. Let’s transition to the next pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 11:2–11. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday of Advent, which is December 14. Paul, we’d be grateful if you read it for us, please. [00:32:23] Paul: Sure. I would love to. When John heard in prison what the Messiah was doing, he sent word by his disciples 3 and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or are we to wait for another?” 4 Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, those with a skin disease are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have good news brought to them. 6 And blessed is anyone who takes no offense at me.” 7 As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 What, then, did you go out to see? Someone dressed in soft robes? Look, those who wear soft robes are in royal palaces. 9 What, then, did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written, ‘See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.’ 11 “Truly I tell you, among those born of women no one has arisen greater than John the Baptist, yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. [00:33:45] Anthony: So, Paul, what does this text reveal about Jesus? This is where we always, this is what we come looking for in Scripture. What does it tell us about Jesus and, therefore, the Trinity? [00:33:56] Paul: One is Jesus loves; Jesus, he loves. Jesus loves John the Baptist. Anthony: Yes, he does. Paul: His cousin, he loves him. And he loves the people who are there listening to him. And he is helping their eyes to become open. And also, John is sending him a message from his disciples to ask Jesus, “Are you the one?” You know, “Here I am.” He’s in prison. “Are you the one?” And Jesus says, “Tell him what and tell him what you hear.” And he doesn’t give him a theological conversation. He says, “Watch. Look at the fruit of my life.” And he begins to tell all the ways and the things that are happening around him and his activity in them. So, Jesus is not a theologian. He is an expressor of his love relationship with the Father and the Spirit. He does not try to convince you. In fact, he hides things in parables a lot. Anthony: Yes, he does. Paul: And so, he’s not trying to convince you intellectually. He’s inviting you relationally. And so that tells us a lot about God. God is not out to create theological works so that you can see and begin to understand. He is actually in you to love you. And that tells us about, and we’re talking about, a God who is human, fully human. Anthony: Yeah. Yes. Paul: And he’s, “John, don’t take offense. Don’t be offended. Watch what I’m doing.” Anthony: And yeah, talk to me about that. Is it, I’m just curious, can people declare the name of Jesus but then turn around and take offense to what he taught? Paul: I’ve done it a lot. Anthony: Okay. There you go. Paul: In my past, I would take literally a talking snake more than the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is offensive for those of us who’ve eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil all our lives. And so, it’s no, love your enemies, do good to those who despitefully use you, on and on.  If that’s not offensive, remember, Jesus said, “Eat of my flesh and drink of my blood,” and everybody is so offended that they leave, except for a few. Jesus turns to them and says, “So are you going to leave?” And Peter’s, like, “Where else do we have to go?” Anthony: Yeah. Paul: No, we’ve got nowhere to go. And that, and nobody’s talking words that contain life — life, the tree of life, who is Jesus. And so, yeah. What’s the value of offence? You look at the world around us right now and you see all the fear that is coming to the surface. What’s the value of that? Well, let me tell you. The commitment of God, the Holy Spirit has come to convict, and that’s the Greek word to expose. And the unexposed is the unhealed. So, it is a great thing, in one sense, that all of your crap is coming to the surface, because without that exposure, the possibility of healing is not there. And the commitment of God is that everything that you’re involved in that is not of love’s kind, is going to be exposed so that you can be healed. And in that healing, you’ll become fully human, fully alive, and that is the action, that is the work of the Spirit. So, offended? [00:37:51] Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s end game, like you said, it’s healing, not shame. Paul: No. Anthony: There’s no shame in God’s game. He’s not bringing things to the surface. Go look at that one. Look how messed up they are. [00:38:03] Paul: No. [00:38:04] Anthony: It’s to heal it. [00:38:05] Paul: I saw this t-shirt that a friend had and she wore this. And you look at it, and it’s got Jesus peeking around the corner and saying, “I saw that.” It’s a great shirt! And it’s the shame-basis that we carry with us that also has to be exposed. And God, just, he … at some point you can begin to understand that his character is trustworthy. But his behavior is certainly not and because our expectations are such that God will not live within the context of them. And as a result, we get offended and disappointed and God doesn’t show up the way that we want God to show up and we create theologies to try to manage God and are continuously disappointed. But that’s exposure. [00:39:01] Anthony: Yeah. And as I look at the text, just a final word, Jesus is a man full of integrity. Because as I’m looking at verse 5, didn’t he preach when he first went into the synagogue? The blind would get their sight. The lame would walk. Paul: Yeah. Anthony: People would be healed. The dead would be raised; the poor would have good news. He’s living what he preached, what he said he was going to do, he did. Paul: Yep. Anthony: And this is the thing about God. I’ve always thought, if God in Jesus Christ predicts that he’s going to die, going to be buried and raised to newness of life, and he’s going to take all of us with him, like, trust that guy. Like that God is, we know he’s pretty great. And look what he pulled off. Let’s follow that one. He knows what he’s up to. [00:39:41] Paul: And that’s how Jesus announced his presence by reading from Isaiah that passage. And so, his reference here to John is exactly to that passage and how he announced himself. [00:39:58] Anthony: Alright, let’s transition to the third passage of the month. It is Matthew 1:18–25. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday of Advent, December 21. Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been engaged to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found to be pregnant from the Holy Spirit. 19 Her husband Joseph, being a righteous man and unwilling to expose her to public disgrace, planned to divorce her quietly. 20 But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “Look, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means, “God is with us.” 24 When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife 25 but had no marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son, and he named him Jesus. So, Paul, the incarnation of our Lord is staggering. Which is an understatement. And so, I just wanted to give you some time to just riff on the Word becoming flesh and if you can, make it personal, how has the incarnation of Jesus impacted your worldview, your life, your living? [00:41:44] Paul: I’m going to do you one better. I’m going to read a poem by my friend David Tensen out of Australia. And it’s called The Incarnation. And I think it says it in a way that you and I cannot. We can’t find the words for it. Anthony: Yeah. Paul: Because we, apart from the Incarnation, there is no hope. There’s absolutely no hope. And here’s how I like to put it. Unless we see an incarnation of something, we won’t believe that it’s possible. Unless we see somebody who lives an abundant life, we won’t believe it’s possible. We will wait, hoping that when we die, we will experience it. This is the whole Hebrew scriptures coming up to the Incarnation — they were looking. Read Hebrews 11. They were seeking. They were looking for something that they couldn’t grasp. And this is why Jesus says, among all men born, John is the greatest, but the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. That’s because Hebrews 11 says, we got it. We got to see the revelation of God in Jesus. If you want to have a clear view of the nature of the Father, it’s Jesus, and I cannot, and you cannot. I know you, and Anthony, you talk about this all the time. You have to put on the lenses to look at the nature of God, the lenses being Jesus. That’s when everything came together. And those who are inside of that, in that sense, are greater because they have now been embraced in the reality of the Incarnation — God, fully becoming human, being fully God. So here is David’s poem, David Tensen. The Incarnation by David Tensen Take all your hope and longing; cover it in blood, urine, faeces, straw. Cut the chord to your dreams with a field knife or clenched jaw. Here lays the King of the Jews. Crowned between thighs, Held in arms of exhaustion. Bathed with tears, sweat and the soft tones of a mother singing songs of deliverance between breaths as the King of Glory feeds folded at her breast. What newborn would you not bend a knee for? What labouring mother would not make room for? Here’s how God chose to be with His beloved; in a state of utter surrender and dependence; making His way into the world through a uterus. Trading a heavenly crown for one of mucus. Later, finding woven thorns pushed in its place as, once again, God surrenders to the fulness of humanity’s mess – reconciling it all to Himself; counting no soul’s sin against them. [00:45:05] Anthony: Trading the crown for one of mucus. Wow. Hallelujah. And you had said earlier, Paul, where is Jesus? Where is he? Where’s the kingdom? And this text tells us that he is Emmanuel, he is God with us. We see it in Jesus. And we know it’s present by the Spirit, that God is here, he’s there. And the church has this doctrine of omnipresence, which makes separation by the way illogical. It makes no sense. Right? He’s here. Hallelujah. And I guess you’ve been talking about this all along, but what else would you say about how this reveals the Father’s heart, that God is here? [00:45:56] Paul: I just got back from Switzerland and a year ago, I baptized a 13-year-old, part of a family that has adopted me as sort of a grandfather. I was involved in a documentary about sexual abuse with the mom, and this year I got to baptize the oldest of the three daughters. When I left, the young, the middle daughter hugged me and she said, I’m next. And so, they’re trying to make me come back — which I will — but when I was baptizing both those girls, a thought that had never occurred to me, occurred to me. And that, say, in the 13-year-old, who dwells in that 13-year-old? It’s the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; it’s Jesus who dwells within her. And what is in Jesus? Not anything that has come into being has come into being apart from him. So, the entire cosmos is in him and he is in her, this 13-year-old. And as I laid her down into the water, waters of death, and up into the true life of resurrection, in that symbol, I am again reenacting the baptizing of all creation in Christ in this 13-year-old girl. What does that tell me about the Father? It tells me that the Father is all in. All in! [00:47:30] Anthony: Yes. [00:47:30] Paul: And that there is no separation between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And when people look at the symbol of the trinity and you ask them where are we? Where are we in that design? And some people might say, we are in the middle, but guess what? There’s nothing in the middle, nothing. Where are we? We are in Christ. That’s how our participation is sealed — in him. And all of creation was created in him. And the Father loves the Son, loves the Son, and therefore loves us in that one picture. All in. [00:48:26] Anthony: All in. All in. Everything hinges on the love of the Father to the Son, and we get to receive that. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. We’re in the home stretch. We have one more text to go. It’s Hebrews 2:10–18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the first Sunday after Christmas, December 28. Paul, read it for us, please. [00:48:40] Paul: I would love to. 10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 12 saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.” 13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Here am I and the children whom God has given me.” 14 Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. 16 For it is clear that he did not come to help angels but the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself was tested by what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested. [00:50:12] Anthony: He’s able. Let’s think for a moment about sanctification. I’m curious from your perspective, is that an ongoing spiritual formational reality, or is it an already accomplished work, or is it both? And I’m referring to verse 11, and what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ? [00:50:34] Paul: You tell me. Who’s the church? It’s human beings. So, what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ? It’s to tell the story of being a burning bush. It is both a finished work and it is an ongoing work. We were in Christ and when he died, we died — finished work. When he rose, we rose — finished work. When he ascended, we ascended — finished work. And yet in space and time and we work it out, because our ability to say no to God matters as much as our ability to say yes. Anthony: Wow. Paul: Because apart from that love cannot exist. We would just be part of a machine. And so, God respects and protects our ability to say no. And yet in us continues to work moment by moment, day by day, to cleanse us, to heal us from all the detritus of the consequences of our turning away from love, all the ways that we have not been able to trust. And so there is a continuous work that is going on and God doesn’t build those kinds of roads going nowhere. Our hope is in Jesus. Our residence is in Jesus, whether we acknowledge it or know it or not. And that is true for all of creation that was created in him. And so, the church — we bear our martyrdom, right? Our witness, our martýrios — our death. There is a — give me a second and I’m going to look at one passage, hold on. So, I’m going add one little section to the lectionary today and here’s what it is. It’s 2 Corinthians 2:15–17. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one those who are being saved, it is a fragrance from death to death and to the other, those who are perishing, it’s a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things. “To those who are being saved, it’s a fragrance and aroma from death to death” — that is dying to ourself, centeredness to our addictions, to our idolatry of fear, to our attachments, to our nationalism, to our money and compliments and approval, dying to future tripping, to false selves and their names, and their self-protection and self-promotion, dying to reputation and so on, and so on, and so on. This is a “death to death” experience. To those who are perishing, it’s an aroma from “life to life.” It’s the incarnation of love and goodness and kindness, the presence of love, the burning bush that attracts by its very nature, the anomaly of something not dying. The glimpse of something alive, of a different world, of an incarnation, of “life to life.” Who is sufficient for these things? If that’s a shout that Paul cries out, deep soul joined by spirit and mouth, by the body, the wonder of which the mind bows, it’s too much. That’s what Paul was saying. It’s too much. That’s what we’re talking about, Anthony. That’s the process of sanctification. And on any given day, in any given moment, I may be perishing as I’m holding on to crap, and at any given moment, I may be moving from “life to life.” There are some choices that I make and some embracing that I do, some extending of forgiveness that is “life to life.” And people can smell it. They can smell it. And they can also smell the death stuff. And so, when you’re in this world and you take a whiff of the news, you can smell the perishing. And when they suddenly have a little story about someone who went out of their way to go help someone with something, you can smell it. That is the presence of the God who is love by nature and who is in us, in union with us, to express that nature into the cosmos. [00:55:11] Anthony: It’s not natural to love someone well. Paul: It is natural! Anthony: At least well from the standpoint of when I’m dying to self. It’s just, it’s hard to put somebody, to esteem somebody as greater than me, to put their needs above mine. It’s only by the indwelling the Holy Spirit. I know me, Paul. Yeah. I can’t do it. [00:55:36] Paul: But it’s natural. We’ve got to get to the place where we recognize that that kind of existence, that ability to love is natural to the truth of who we are. And then we can agree and join into it as natural and you will find in doing so that your world will change. It’s when we are thinking that we are in an ongoing forever battle, that our nature is such that it is polluted to begin with, that we’ve got to struggle and strive in all this. That is not natural. [00:56:08] Anthony: Yeah. And that’s why I really appreciate Eugene Peterson and thinking about discipleship because we often think of it as becoming something we’re not. Whereas I look at it as God is returning us to ourselves. That’s exactly who we truly are. Paul: That’s exactly right, Anthony. Anthony: And sometimes that doesn’t feel so great. And that can happen even in the midst of suffering. And I did want to ask you about this. We know that suffering is universal. It is part of our participation in our Lord. We’ve all been touched by it. So, I just want to ask you as a closing word, what difference does it make that we have a great high priest who is human, who in his person is in the place where divinity and humanity are united, who understands our humanity and who is super over abundant in his mercy? What difference does it make? [00:57:03] Paul: It makes a difference when we think about where this high priest dwells. If we think that the high priest is somewhere up there, over there, out there, then it doesn’t make any difference. Not really. It’s more of a thought experiment. But when we recognize that this high priest is in union with us and continuing to fill up his own sufferings in us, that changes things. That means that I have a certainty of the nature of this one who refuses to leave me alone in my suffering. That uniting with my suffering means that I’m never alone to it or in it, and that Christ in me continues to fill up his sufferings and we get to join him in that, which is the way that love expresses itself into the world. And then I know I’m not alone. And that the redeeming genius who is suffering in me, with me, we together in participation, will love in such a way in the midst of this, that we will be the presence of love in any situation, some which are so hard. And I know those who are listening, some of you out there, you are in the midst of incredible rocky times. And been there. Hellish. I’m sad with you. A lot of it you didn’t ask for. And I’m saying, look, you’re not alone. There’s no way that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will ever disregard what is going on in your world, will ever abandon you to what is going on in your world. I will never ever, ever, never ever leave you or forsake you. That is the promise of the one who suffers with us. [00:58:58] Anthony: Thank you, Lord. Paul. I love you, man. Paul: Love you, too. Anthony: And I want to remind you of something you did 10 years ago. It came to my mind. I knew we were going to have this conversation. And you probably won’t remember this, but I was about to leave on a trip with my wife Elizabeth to San Diego. And just before I closed my laptop, I was on Twitter at the moment and you had posted that you were going to be in San Diego for a book signing. And I thought, oh, I’m just going to send him a note and see if he has any free time and come hang out with us at the house where we’re going be for some meetings. And, lo and behold, I thought there’s like a half percent chance that you’d be available. But you were, and you came and you spent hours with us just talking and sharing life and it was wonderful. And it’s just one of those moments that tells me who you are, who you know you are in Christ, and you’re just so generous with yourself and your time. I’m just very grateful for who you are. [00:59:55] Paul: How cool is that? I have no, it is, I have no memory of it at all. Anthony: It’s true. It happened. Paul: One of my own suffering places is that four years ago, [inaudible] left frontal lobe, focal point epilepsy. And I live my life on walking on trap doors, but one of the things that has impacted is my data center. And so, I have a horrible time with names and so I’m in the middle of this kind of world. And so, suffering is not something that I don’t know about in terms of my history and in terms of my ongoing real world, day by day. There’s no fear in love, and I have no fear of any of these things. And I live it one moment at a time. So, I thank you, Holy Spirit, that I got to be honored in such a way 10 years ago as to be able to spend time with y’all. And that just blesses me. Thank you. [01:00:57] Anthony: Oh, you bless us. And I want to thank the team that also blesses us. A podcast doesn’t happen, poof, out of vapor. There’s a team behind this. So, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman, thank you for your gifts and the way that you share of yourselves to make this possible. As is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we end with prayer. And Paul, we’d be delighted if you’d say a word of prayer for us. [01:01:20] Paul: It’s always an honor to do so. Papa God and Jesus and Holy Spirit. Our words are certainly lacking, but you know our hearts because you dwell there and you are clearing away all the poisons and the indoctrinations and the toxic stuff. Sometimes we think too slowly. But one thing I’ve come to know about you is that you won’t heal us in such a way that would harm us. And so, Jesus like you did, entered into all of our stuff, all of it in your humanity, you went down to the depths of our delusions and our places where we cry out, “Where are you?” And you cried out our cry, but you made the choice to trust. So today we abandon our whys. Why this and why that? And we enter into your goodness in such a way that the question is now what? What now? In the middle of our losses, in the middle of our sufferings in this moment, Holy Spirit, show us what now. And I thank you. I thank you for all the millions of people who are in each moment participating in your affection, to love the one who is in front of them as Reuel and Anthony are involved in this and all the others. I know it’s an expression of your union with them participating into the world in love. So are the millions of others and the ones who are listening to this. I bless you. I bless you in this moment with peace. I bless you in this moment with the arms of affection wrapped around you, that you would sense and feel and touch and taste, that your heart would be emboldened, that you would be able to sit, to sit, to relax inside that embrace. Thank you for your ongoing kindness to each of us. Amen. Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Paul Young—Year A Advent 2-Christmas first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Dwight Zcheielle. Dwight is Professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary. He’s the author of several books, including Embracing the Mixed Ecology: Inherited and New Forms of Christian Community Flourishing Together, also Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future, and Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the Church in America. Dwight is an ordained minister in The Episcopal Church. Dwight, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. It’s so good to have you, and since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we’d like to know you a little bit, your story, projects you’re currently working on, and how you’re participating with the Lord Jesus Christ. [00:01:40] Dwight: Thanks so much, Anthony, and it’s just so great to join you all. I grew up in a secular home in California. I’ve lived in Minnesota now for 20 years, and so it’s pretty crazy that a Californian would survive 20 Minnesota winters. But I grew up really in a story that I think is pretty common now in American culture around really writing your own story, if you will, and having to go your own way and create your own sense of community and find meaning and purpose where you can. And I encountered Jesus and the gospel as a kind of young adult, and it really revolutionized my life, freed me, and reoriented me in every way, really. And so, my work as a missiologist really comes out of a concern for those neighbors who haven’t heard the gospel and how the church can join those neighbors, love them, listen to them, and faithfully witness to the story we have in Jesus which is life. And so, that’s what my work has been on, and I’ve done that partly through just being involved in the missional church conversation and the kind of later stages of that in the early 2000s into the 2010s when that was a primary conversation going on around the church in America. And then spending quite a few years really trying to figure out, okay, if we work out the theology on it’s God’s mission that we’re participating in, what does that really look like in practice? And so, I spent a lot of time working with local churches trying to figure out what are the practices that help them actually join God’s mission in their place — learned a lot along the way. And then recently I’ve been working on this kind of framework which comes from the UK, of thinking about a mixed ecology, of lots of different forms of church, traditional inherited church, as well as church plants, fresh expressions, creative out of the box forms of church that are needed to reach the variety of people who are in today’s neighborhoods. And so, that’s the last book that I did with my wife, Blair. And just trying to help expand some imagination around that and think about how these pieces fit together. [00:04:08] Anthony: It’s fascinating work and it really does lead into the question I wanted to ask you of particular importance to me. I’ve seen evangelism done in such a way, Dwight, that it felt like it was completely unhitched with a faithful theology. And what I saw happening, and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this, the church could end up doing mission work for God, like “God, look what I’ve done. I’ve slayed the dragon. I’ve saved all these souls,” but without realizing the vitality of mission with God, that it’s God’s mission and that he’s at work in the neighborhood by his Spirit. So, is that a fair assessment? And I’m just curious, how should Christology theology inform missiology. Do you address it in your book Participating in God’s Mission, and if so, how did it work out? [00:04:58] Dwight: Yes. What you’re describing is I think what in the field of missiology is sometimes talked about as a kind of Copernican revolution that happened really in the mid-twentieth century around thinking about God’s mission and God as the primary missionary, if you will, that God’s Trinitarian life is a missional life. It’s a life that’s not closed in on itself, but it’s creative and outward reaching, ecstatic in the true kind of Greek sense of that, reaching beyond. And that it is primary in fact. And that we know that that mission through Christ and the Spirit, Irenaeus’ “two hands of God in the world today,” right? And so, the church exists as a kind of product of and participant in that mission, which means that rather than the church having to think about, okay, “what do I need to do for God?” as you’re mentioning, it’s “what is God doing?” How might we discern what God is actively doing in our context? And then, how might we join in? And one of the really important pieces of that then becomes that discernment is really the primary posture, if you will, for the church. So, I like to talk about, the Holy Spirit should be the primary leader of the church … [00:06:21] Anthony: Yes. [00:06:22] Dwight: … not any human leader, but the Holy Spirit. And then the responsibility of those of us who are entrusted with leading local churches is to help the community discern and join what the Holy Spirit is doing and to witness to Christ into the gospel in an embodied way, in joining what God’s doing in the neighborhood. And I think the backdrop to this, which I think we should just name is in Western cultures, the kind of secular imagination that comes out of modernity where it’s so easy for people to simply experience the world with God’s agency and presence bracketed out, if you will. And it’s a long kind of philosophical history of that going back into the Enlightenment, which brought many gifts and also some real liabilities, if you will, to thinking about this question of how the church engages with neighbors. And so, part of what we need to renew and rediscover is imagination for God’s active presence in agency in our local contexts. And then the capacity to test the spirits, to faithfully discern and participate in those, the movement of God in our place. And that’s something that I think for a lot of local churches, they’re simply not organized around or their culture is not organized around. It’s still often, mission is something we do over maybe 5% of the time with 5% of the people in some programmatic way, rather than a more holistic understanding where all of the whole people of God, all disciples, are called to discern and join in in all of life wherever God’s placed us with what God is doing and to be witnesses there. And, of course, we love those kinds of organized outreach activities that we might do. And they’re wonderful, and they need to be complimenting a much more holistic, whole of life kind of approach. [00:08:32] Anthony: Preach. I’m really compelled by this conversation. I’d love to dig deeper. Maybe we can have a podcast at some point and just talk about this matter. But just really quickly, I’m curious you talked about practical expressions of this. Can you give our listening audience maybe a practical way of group discernment? Say there’s a fresh expression of church. What would you advise, guide a church to do to really discern what the Lord is doing in their context? Any practical advice? [00:09:05] Dwight: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think it has to begin with prayer and Scripture and a real capacity to pay attention to God’s presence and movement. So, prayer is again, … and I think multiple ways of thinking about prayer. I think the rich variety of traditions in the Christian, in our Christian heritage around how do we develop our ability to attend to God, right, to listen to God through prayer, is really important. So, there’s lots of ways we can do that. But then we need to make sure that the primary story shaping our engagement with our neighbors and thinking about this is in fact the biblical narrative and not some other story, because we live in a culture that is very transactional. It’s very much about fixing and it’s very easy then to reduce our neighbors to objects either of attraction into our organized church activities or fixing — they’re our neighbors, we need to fix them, because there’s something wrong with them, right? Rather than, I think, a more holistic understanding of, God’s agency is primary. Our neighbors are agents as well, or subjects. And we’re called to be in relationship with them — that’s through listening and loving. And so, yes, some concrete practices that come out of that. I think developing our prayer capacity, engaging in scripture. And there are a variety of ways that I’ve seen that happen in communities beyond a kind of more formal Bible study. So often that could be simply like a practice that I’ve used a lot. It’s called dwelling in the Word, and it’s a very simple form of lectio divina in community that builds people’s ability to engage Scripture with a kind of wondering curiosity. And then I think another piece to practice is simply intentionally paying attention to your daily life, right? So that might be, whether it be prayer walks, or whether it be investing some presence in relationship in a particular neighborhood space maybe you’re already connected in, but that you want to bring a kind of spiritual attention to and wonder about where God might be leading you to listen to or love or draw close to various neighbors. And I think the whole Fresh Expressions journey and a lot of those kinds of contextual Christian communities that are emerging right now began very intentionally not with trying to track people into a worship service, but really with joining, listening, loving, forming community, building trust. And out of that, then, discerning what does church need to look like with these people in this place. And it’s so easy. I think we often, as church leaders, we have great ideas for what church should look like. We dream them up and then they may be very different from what actually the Holy Spirit wants to create with particular people that we have in our neighborhoods. [00:12:13] Anthony: Yeah, recently I saw a survey that only 70 or 77% of Americans state that they have not spoken to a single neighbor in the last two years. And my experience is that often the church mimics culture. And if that’s the case, we can see why we have so many issues, right? That’s got to change. We’re called to love our neighbors and that means like our literal neighbors like the person that’s sleeping 40 feet away in the next house. They’re my neighbor. Sometimes I think we can get lost behind everybody’s my neighbor, so, I love all my neighbors, but I don’t engage anybody in particular. But we’re called to love our literal neighbor. That’s again, a fascinating discussion. Bless you for the work that you’re doing, Dwight. Let’s move on to our lectionary text for the month. Our first text is 2 Thessalonians 1:1-4, 11-12. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. This is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 26 in Ordinary Time, November 2. We must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. 4 Therefore we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith during all your persecutions and the afflictions that you are enduring. 11 To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Dwight, if you were giving an expository sermon from this text, what would you herald to the congregation? [00:14:20] Dwight: It’s a beautiful text and I love the spirit of it. And what I want to begin with is how the text begins with this posture of gratitude and thanksgiving. Right now, it seems like in American culture, one of the predominant emotions is resentment, which I think of almost as the opposite of gratitude. There’s a lot of grievance. There’s a lot of divisiveness. There’s a lot of sense of scarcity, right? That’s zero sum, that we were all competing and if someone else is thriving, that means that I might, must not be, they’re taking it away from me. There’s all kinds of dynamics and you see it across the political spectrum right now. So, to begin with a posture of gratitude, like giving thanks for this growth of faith that Paul is seeing in these sisters and brothers in love. It’s increasing, which — this is the game, right, that we as Christians are playing. It is growth in faith and it is love for one another and for our neighbors. And there’s a simplicity to that, that I think it’s easy to lose sight of, right? Growth in faith is about growth in our capacity to be led by God, to place our trust in God, to obey God, to be dependent upon God in a culture that says, informs us, has these messages around that you should really just be only self-reliant, look out for yourself. You can do it yourself. Justify yourself, right? I think we have a massive culture right now of self-justification in a lot of ways. So, growing in a faith abundantly and loving one another is we learn how to live into, if you will, the life of the Trinity, this life of love that is also about differentiation. It’s like we don’t need to be the same, and yet we need, we can love one another and be joined in one community. So, the fact that Paul is boasting about their love and faith among other churches is I think a beautiful idea. If there’s anything to boast of, right? Paul boasted of his suffering and he boasts of other people’s faith and love rather than all the things that we might be tempted to boast about in a self-justifying way. Self-justification is very much there in the church too right now. We think about it as all the ways in which, again, we’re trying to save ourselves or do right or deal with whatever sense of guilt we have on our own. And this is a text that just comes out of a spirit, I think, of freedom, spirit of love, spirit of celebration. And then I want to just touch on verse 4, there, the end of verse 4: “During all your persecutions and the afflictions that you’re enduring.” So, it’s not okay, this is coming, that you’re growing in love and faith because everything’s just so easy. It’s actually very much in the midst of suffering and resistance and persecution. And I think there’s a piece to that’s important to keep in mind as well. There’s a lot of resistance, just suffering happening generally for people in our world today. We don’t need to remind anyone of that, but also the resistance of what does it mean to follow Jesus in this culture that I think is increasingly post-Christian and many ways, increasingly kind of neopagan right now resembling more in some weird ways, the culture of the first century, Roman imperial context. So, if I were preaching on this text, I would wonder what does it mean to live as a person of gratitude amidst resistance, persecution, suffering that happens. And to be free to grow and love even amidst that. And I think so often. We look back in our lives on those moments when we’ve faced resistance and adversity and we say, okay, those were the times I did grow in love and they’re painful, but what might God be doing in your life right now through those tough passages to grow you in faith and love? [00:18:55] Anthony: I saw quote just recently, and I’m not sure who the source was, but it said, “Gratitude is the wine of life, and so, it’s okay to get drunk drinking gratitude. Live a life of gratitude.” And I agree with you, brother. Verse 11 says, “God will make you worthy of his call.” What in the world does that mean, and how do we interpret that? [00:19:21] Dwight: Yeah, it’s like another great text in this: “God will make you worthy of his call.” I think, again, just to go back to this basic theme of gratitude and gift. So, I hear this as a message about grace. Again, you don’t need to make yourself worthy of God’s call by being the one who’s just trying harder or again, justifying yourself. It is God’s gift. God will make you worthy. You don’t need to do it. It’s God’s work. And I’m a real kind of student of the reformation in the great breakthrough that Martin Luther had around justification as gift in this as I hear this text, so that we have this gift. God’s making us worthy of his call. And then it goes on to say, we’ll fulfill it by his power. By his power, not our power. By his power. Every good resolve and work of faith. So, you have this sort of justification then vocation, service, loving, work of faith that follows from that dynamic going on in this text that I think is really important. And I think for us to be really clear about that. Again, I just think there’s not enough grace in today’s culture, in today’s society by any stretch, and not enough grace so often in the church as well. It’s so easy for churches to simply ask people, “What are you doing to make yourself worthy of God,” rather than just going back over and over again, “God will make you worthy.” And that is, it’s God’s action. It’s God’s claiming and calling, and then it’s God’s power that will bring forth from us those good works, those works of service so that God’s, that Jesus’ name may be glorified. I love again how Paul ends this passage with “according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ,” just in case you missed it. Let’s come back to the grace thing. [00:21:37] Anthony: Yeah, this reminds me of a statement that Eugene Peterson made about discipleship, and I see a connection here, and what he said at first can sound counterintuitive because he said discipleship is focusing less and less on ourselves and more and more on Christ. And it’s his work. It’s his power, it’s his presence. And yes, we have to be attentive to what the Lord is doing in us. I don’t think Eugene would ever say, you’re not attentive to that, but let’s fix our gaze on him. He’s the one who fulfills these things by his power. And that’s what I hear when we come to a text like this. This is God at work in us, right? [00:22:19] Dwight: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I don’t know about you, but I just find that to be great news. Because if it’s up to me, forget it. And I think one of the reasons why we see a real kind of stream of dimension of despair and anxiety in our culture right now is because this theme of grace is less and less present. And I think people who are living in a more secular or neopagan kind of cultural orientation where it’s all up to you to figure it out, it’s all up to you to secure your place — that is an enormously heavy burden to place on people. And the message of grace is just not being heard by people. And in fact, what you get instead is condemnation, judgment all over the place. [00:23:23] Anthony: Yeah. If Romans 8:1 tells us there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, if he doesn’t condemn us, I don’t think he’s calling us to do it. Let it be so, Lord. Alright, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, 13-17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 27 in Ordinary Time, which is November 9. Dwight, we’d be grateful if you read it for us, please. [00:23:56] Dwight: I’d be happy to. As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? 13 But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 For this purpose he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and through grace gave us eternal comfort and good hope, 17 comfort your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word. [00:25:29] Anthony: Amen. I see a theme that constantly is present in Thessalonians, and that is the coming of Jesus Christ, being prepared for the second arrival, an awareness of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I’m curious because sometimes I hear Christians talk about the kingdom to come in its fullness and it’s like we’re waiting around just trying to escape to that, as opposed to the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming, having a Word to speak to us in the here and now. What say you, how do you speak of the second coming of Jesus? [00:26:07] Dwight: Yeah, so I think it’s really important to step back and think about how time is conceptualized in different cultures. And if you think about what’s so powerful about biblical faith is the sense of God acting in history, which is very revolutionary. I think we take it for granted, but compared to so many cultures in the world which see this sort of endless cycles of time repeating itself. But the idea that there is a beginning, middle, and end, if you will, to history, or there are these seasons, if you will, that are up to God is a really powerful biblical teaching. And so, this teaching on the Parousia is a way to stress that. And I always want to approach it with fear and trembling and thinking about the depths of the mystery of all of this, because of course, very much one of the core messages of the Thessalonian correspondence is, okay don’t spend too much time trying to worry about exactly when this is coming, right? This is God’s thing. And so, we need to be living into a new reality in light of that future. But that future is in fact one of the healing and restoration of the whole world. It’s not simply the escape of certain people out of the world, which I think has been one of the ways in which this has been imagined. And often we get a very diminished soteriology is a result of that. And so, I think the idea in our culture, which I think in the modern West, has a kind of narrative of progress that has been built in since the Enlightenment, which in some ways, again, would not have happened without Christianity, without a sense that time has a trajectory — that is really a Christian idea or at least a going back into the Jewish heritage as well — that we live in this culture that says things should be just getting better and better. Humans should be being perfected through technology, education, science, and all this stuff. And of course, that is really over the last century since World War I, in many ways been deeply challenged and disrupted and broken down, and yet it still functions, I think, in many ways. And I think people get surprised when their vision of progress isn’t being realized and people feel like, oh, we’re going back. You hear this language a lot, right? And so, the biblical teaching, which is not progress in that sense of self, human self-salvation or perfectibility through technology, science, or the sell, the state of the market, if you will, but rather that God is in control of history, that God is active in history, and we live in this in-between time where we have this tangible experience of a kind of down payment, if you will, on God’s future, on the kingdom that we experience. We know it. It’s real. It lives in us and among us and around us in different ways. And yet we yearn for, we look for its completion. It’s bringing all of creation to rights and the restoring of relationships that are broken and the healing of all that’s been that’s been wounded and destroyed and all of that. We have that hope that is a proper hope that we can look forward to and we hold it with just incredible humble mystery, a posture of not trying to manage and fix when that future comes, but trusting that it is the ultimate story. [00:30:02] Anthony: Looking at verses 13 through 17, how would you herald the God that’s revealed in Jesus Christ here? [00:30:11] Dwight: Yeah. So again, I love this language of first fruits for salvation and this, again, this stress and this text around God acting to sanctify us through the Holy Spirit, to make us holy, to restore us to holiness, to right relationship with God and each other and the world. And to do that through truth, through a different way of understanding reality that is present in Jesus, right? Jesus as the locus of God’s Word, as the locus of that truth that we know tangibly through his ministry and his presence. And so, again, the idea here that comes through in this of gratitude and God’s action to choose and claim us being primary, I think is really important to stress. And then, this message about glory is also really interesting, too. So, what is the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ? You think about Paul’s cultural context. Glory had certain associations in a Roman imperial context, and it was all about military conquest. Military heroes were glorious. Glory of Caesar and all that. The glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, right? Even using that word, kurios, Lord, which would normally apply to Caesar. Here’s the guy who was crucified shamefully by the Roman Empire. He’s actually the glorious one. How revolutionary this is! So, if our ideas of glory are shaped by human cultures and empires, we will miss the profoundly subversive message here of glory being found in a God who is willing to join us, suffer with us, and for us. And claim us in the very worst of human circumstances. That’s the kind of glory we know that is a love that shows up, that is present and reaches through even the hate that we send and bring to that very person, right? If we’re the ones crucifying Christ and Christ is saying, “Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing.” [00:32:33] Anthony: It’s such good news. Such good news. Yes. Yes, it is. And I like to say to churches, the gospel is good news and so, this is what we need to speak to one another. We speak life. If there’s one place, we should show up each and every week and expect to hear good news, it should be the church of Jesus Christ proclaiming his word. Amen and amen. Let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s 2 Thessalonians 3:6–13. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 28 in Ordinary Time, November 16. Now we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from every brother or sister living irresponsibly and not according to the tradition that they received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not irresponsible when we were with you, 8 and we did not eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day so that we might not burden any of you. 9 This was not because we do not have that right but in order to give you an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: anyone unwilling to work should not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living irresponsibly, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. 13 Brothers and sisters, do not be weary in doing what is right. So, what’s Paul doing here? Is he inviting us to condemn brothers and sisters who are not living as we are living? He gives an imperative in verse 6, to keep away from people living irresponsibly and according to tradition. Easy for me to say. What’s going on here, Dwight? [00:34:40] Dwight: Yeah. So, this is a very interesting text for us to wrestle with in today’s church because we, of course, become very uncomfortable often when we think about, we’re supposed to keep away from our sisters and brothers in Christ. And often a lot of churches for good reasons, really want to have a generous spirit of inclusion and not shame or exclude people. But I think part of what we need to get back to is what does it mean to live faithfully in this in-between time as a community, again, justified and sanctified by Christ in the Spirit for a particular purpose of witness and faithfulness in the world? And I wonder to me if Paul in this isn’t saying, look, there are people who are bringing discredit to the gospel in the ways that they are living again, living irresponsibly. Maybe it’s just that they’re like, hey, we don’t need to do any work because we’re expecting Jesus, to come back and take care of the mess. We’re not going contribute to our own livelihood, to loving our neighbor, to serving our neighbor, to being productive kind of citizens of the community Paul’s saying, “Hey, wait a minute, you’re really missing out on what it means to live in this in-between time and to be the Body of Christ.” And so, I think what’s at stake in this is something really bigger than simply shunning someone. It is about, what is the integrity of our vocation as the church in this time, right? So, when he talks about people living irresponsibly, not doing any work: if to follow Jesus to be a Christian means that we just give up on loving and serving our neighbors, Paul has no patience with that. I think he’s saying, no, no, no. Our witness to our neighbors is going to be not in us withdrawing in that way, but in us actually loving them and serving sacrificially and as Jesus did, and being able to name a reason for the hope that is within us as to why we do that. I think there’s, of course, lots of different moments in church history. We can look and say people withdrew and gave up everything waiting for Jesus to come back. And then were disappointed in some way and I think God doesn’t really want that. God wants us to be engaged with our neighbors in a way that is, you know, generous and fruitful, because that’s where the witness takes place. [00:37:33] Anthony: I love how you talk about vocation in the in-between times and this inaugurated eschatology and this vocation, this calling can feel like work, right? At the end of the day, it can feel like work, a heaviness to it. And Paul gives the statement to not be weary in doing what is right. And so, I’m going invite you to maybe make this personal. Have you experienced weariness in doing good and or witnessed it in others who are close to you? And if so, what would you suggest is underneath that lived experience? And how do we address it? [00:38:23] Dwight: And yeah. Absolutely. I absolutely have experienced weariness like I think so many of us have, right, in trying to both to follow Jesus and to love others in the context of that. And I think underneath that so often is, what’s our relationship with God? How goes your walk with Jesus, in the sense of, are you grounded in the practices of spiritual presence in which God’s grace is made known to you daily in which you can sink into that embrace? I think often when I’ve grown weary, it’s when I have fallen into a pattern of self-justification, when I think it’s all up to me, and I’ve got to just work harder, and my own spiritual rhythms and practices have gotten out of whack. And I’m not keeping a Sabbath or I’m not doing the kind of practices of prayer and scripture reading each day or whatever that would ground me in God’s presence. And I see this sometimes with leaders. It’s very easy as a leader, it can be heady to be at the center of everything and to be the one who’s bringing the energy and really trying to fix everything for everyone and do it all. And I think when we fall into that trap, we very easily grow weary as a way of just missing, I think again, this basic premise that central to faith, a life of faith is trusting that God’s ultimate. And it’s just hard to remember that and practice out of that kind of place. And when we don’t, we really do very easily grow weary and, gosh, we think of a lot of leaders of various sorts, not just pastors, but other kinds of leaders who end up falling into all kinds of misconduct and things like that because they’re just not grounded in that way. And so, I think it’s important when we think about the importance of spiritual practices in our lives not to think of those as justifying activities on a list of many things to do, we’ve got to tick those boxes, but rather as the spaces through which we are rooted in the vine as branches as in the John 15 kind of way of Jesus and his love. And if we’re living out of some other kind of rootedness, some other kind of soil, if you will, ultimately, we’re not going to bear fruit. We’re going end up burning out. [00:40:57] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word. And I agree with everything you said and you just were speaking about rootedness. I have also found in my own personal walk that when I isolate from community in any way, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that’s where weariness sets in. I just firmly believe healing happens in community. And should we be surprised by that we’re made in the image and likeness of a triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit, a community of other-centeredness. That’s where the good stuff happens. And if we isolate in any way, it’s just not good. It’s unhealthy and, at least for me, that’s where weariness and burnout can set in. A word for all of us. Yeah. Our final pericope of the month is Colossians 1:11-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Reign of Christ Sunday on November 23. Dwight, this is one of my favorite passages, so read it well, brother. No pressure. [00:42:02] Dwight: All right, so here we go. May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, so that you may have all endurance and patience, joyfully 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. [00:43:20] Anthony: Whew. That is a doozy of a passage and I want to give you an opportunity to proclaim it, to just riff on the supremacy of Christ. So, preach, preacher. What would you say? [00:43:31] Dwight: Oh, yes. This is such a rich — it’s really almost a hymn, I think, or a poem almost, in the way that it is just so rich. And I think where I want to go in this is thinking about these terms, strength, and power: “may you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power.” His glorious power, right? From God’s glorious power, from Jesus’ power, which again, is power that’s made known in weakness, that’s revealed on a cross, “so that you may have all the endurance and patience, giving thanks to the Father.” So, this sense of needing to endure patiently. And the root of patience, of course, is to suffer, right? [00:44:15] Anthony: Yes. [00:44:16] Dwight: As we’re taking this journey together with an eye toward an inheritance, right? We have this gift that’s coming from God and he’s transferred us from the power of darkness, from the dominion, if you will, of the world and its powers into this kingdom, this reign of his Son, which is this upside-down reign where the crucified God is the ultimate authority, right? It’s turning on its head so much of what we see in our world and its structures. And being transferred into that realm, if you will. I used to live in Virginia and I used to joke when I lived the, in Virginia, as we talked about, the old dominion and the new creation. I like it. And so, even though we were living still the old dominion of Virginia, we were living in the new creation, right? And so, we’ve been transferred into that kingdom, that new creation. And so, what does this yield for us? It’s this redemption, the forgiveness of sins. And I think so many of people in our society are living haunted by the mistakes they’ve made, the estrangement and broken relationships that they suffer and don’t know where to turn for an alternative. How, what’s a way out of this, right? And so, people just double down. Again, as we talked about earlier, grievance or resentment or enmity, hate, and things like that. But Paul here is saying, we have this gift that fundamentally reorients our relationships. And it begins with God’s relationship with us, and that is restored in Christ, right? The forgiveness of sins, the redemption, the freeing from whatever we’ve done, from all of the things that have kept us from God and from one another. We have been transferred into this other reality that we live in. And we have the grace and the power and the strength that comes from that so that we might suffer, endure, serve, minister joyfully, right? This paradox here of freedom and joy that comes through being restored to our kind of relationship that is not about our own kind of self-justification or self-aggrandizement, but really about being joined in Christ to God’s life and then through Christ to one another. We live not to ourselves, but to Christ. There’s so much here in this text. But I think if we can unpack these words and bring it down to earth for regular people, saying, what is it that’s keeping you from the freedom of trusting that God has made you right with God and is freeing you to be right in right relationship with everyone else in your life? [00:47:23] Anthony: You know this song, poem, hymn to the supremacy of Christ is a theological tour de force, right? And so, I’m curious from your perspective, what are the theological implications of the statement — and it’s just an awesome statement — that the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Christ. [00:47:47] Dwight: So, I love, again, I love this. This is about the incarnation and I think so often, Christians don’t take the incarnation as seriously as we should. There’s a kind of lingering, often Docetism, I think, that happens in the church where people are kind of, “Yeah, yeah, God became flesh, but we’re not really comfortable with like, how that actually works.” So, I don’t know if you’re a Chosen fan or if you watch The Chosen, but there’s a remarkable. documentary called Jonathan and Jesus. I don’t if you’ve seen that, but … Anthony: Yes. I haven’t watched it, but I did see it advertised. Dwight: So, it’s about Jonathan Rumi, who of course is the actor who plays Jesus in The Chosen. And it’s a little documentary following around his own story. It is really quite remarkable. He’s a faithful disciple of Jesus himself. But what’s powerful to me watching that is they show him being in public different places in the world and people will just come up to him and almost ask for a blessing from him or almost fall at his feet just because they know he’s Jonathan Rumi, the actor, and there’s something about the image, the presence of, here’s this person, embodying the Lord. Even it’s just in a show that we’re watching on TV, but the physicality of that, the tangible incarnation of that, has this effect on people. And you see these people just weeping and wanting his blessing. And I think there’s something in that that’s a reminder of when Jesus came in human flesh to be with us to heal and redeem and restore us. That is the only way that God could restore human nature from the fall to its glory — that taking, sharing our place, taking our place, if you will, is the way, right? And it’s the kind of crazy claim of Christianity, the scandalous claim, right, from the very beginning it’s been offensive to all kinds of people and yet it is the good news for us that God has joined us in the flesh, right? So, when I read in this about the fullness of God dwelling in Christ, it is to say that — I’ll go back to Martin Luther — that what we know of God’s love is what we see in the life, in the face of Jesus, and particularly in the suffering of Jesus, his willingness to join us in the worst of human experience. And so, if we can trust that God’s love is that deep and that wide, and that profound, to meet us where we are, even when we hate him, even when we crucify him, then there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God, to get to Romans 8, that there is truly nothing that can that can separate us. And I just think that is a message we need to hear over and over again. We have a lot of stories, a lot of figures in our culture that are trying to be literally influencers, to influence us in different ways. And so many of them are leading us astray from God’s way. And so, for us to recenter ourselves and say, if we want to know what ultimate reality is like, if we want to know what human nature, what abundant life, a good life is like, we need to focus on Jesus and we see it in him. We see it in the whole of his life, death, and resurrection. And we are to be conformed into that image through the power of the Holy Spirit, through the practices of the community in life together. [00:52:06] Anthony: Amen and amen. There is no other God behind the back of Jesus. He is the highest resolution image that we have of the very nature and being of God as the writer of Hebrews tells us. And God was pleased to have his fullness dwell in Christ. Hallelujah. Praise God. Gospel Reverb exists to help pastors and preachers and teachers proclaim the word. And I just want to remind our listening audience that I believe the best kind of preaching leaves the congregation talking about Jesus, not the preacher, not the sermon, but Jesus and the text that was read. So, thank you for what you’re doing. Dwight, it’s been a joy having you on the podcast. It’s a delight to meet you and we praise God for the work that he’s doing in and through you, especially helping the church understand how we can be swept up in all the good things God is doing through his mission. Thank you so much for joining us, and I also want to thank our team of people who make this podcast possible, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s a joy to work with them. And again, Dwight, thank you. It’s our tradition on Gospel Reverb to end with prayer, and we’d be delighted if you’d pray for us. [00:53:21] Dwight: Wonderful. Let’s pray. God, our Creator, we just give you thanks for the ways in which you are renewing the world, the ways in which you have joined us in Christ and bound yourself in love to us to heal all that is broken and estranged and all of the things that keep us from living abundantly. And Lord, we just pray that your Spirit may encourage all of the listeners on this podcast, all of those who are entrusted with the sacred work of proclaiming your Word. May you give them confidence and clarity and wisdom. Help them to listen carefully to their people. Help them to be rooted in you and your presence and your love. And Lord, we just pray for all those neighbors outside of our churches who don’t know your gospel, Lord, that all your people may live into their vocations as witnesses and ambassadors of reconciliation. Lord, we pray for encouragement and hope always in the gospel. We pray this in Jesus’ name and in the power of the Spirit. Amen. [00:54:32] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Dr. Dwight Zscheile—Year C Proper 26-28, Reign of Christ first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Rev. Dr. Eun Strawser—Year C Proper 22-25 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Reverend E.K. Strawser. Dr. Strauser is the co-vocational lead pastor of Ma Ke Alo o, which means presence in Hawaiian. These are non-denominational, missional communities multiplying in Honolulu. And, on top of that, she’s a community physician. She’s the founder of `Iwa Collaborative, a consulting and content-developing firm to empower kingdom-grounded leaders to navigate change, grow adaptive capacity, and foster local flourishing. Prior to transitioning to Hawaii, she served as adjunct professor of medicine at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine and of African Studies at her alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, where she and her husband served with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. She’s the author of the book Centering Discipleship, and she and Steve have three seriously amazing children. Eun, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we want to get to know you a bit and one of the ways we’re going get to know you, first of all, I have to ask this question. Which of these three seriously amazing children is your favorite? [00:02:06] Eun: I am a person who does not lie. We do have favorites. All you listeners out there who are parents, you all know you do have your favorite. Ours is our oldest, our three kids know this already, but that is my favorite part of my bio, that last line that Steve and I truly do have three amazing children. [00:02:25] Anthony: It sounds like you do. And we’re praying for the other two. I’m sure they know they’re loved as well, but I’m glad you’re being honest because sometimes we do have favorites and usually for me, it’s the one that’s in the room at the moment. And so, as we get to know you a bit more, what projects are you working on? How are you participating with the Lord Jesus Christ these days, Eun? [00:02:47] Eun: Man, if we don’t model that our everyday kind of choices in living is how we imitate Jesus and not just through, let’s say, “projects”, then I think for any of us who are in leadership positions we would be failing at what we’re actually calling those God has given us lead and love to actually do. So, a big chunk of my day, is obviously caring for my patients here in a local context — that’s my big contribution. But Steve and I love our neighbors. We love the neighborhood that we live in. We don’t just lead and love our congregants in our church, but we love the neighbors who live on either side of our homes and in and down our street. And I think if we learned anything about how Christians are supposed to behave and act throughout the pandemic, that probably was an unveiling of how “Christian” are imitators of Jesus. Are we really at the level of how we do our daily lives? What kinds of decisions do we make on a day-to-day basis? So, we try to, I at least try to, put that in the forefront. [00:03:53] Anthony: Yeah, I’m amazed that as I looked over your bio, all the things that you’re doing and involved in beyond just your family, which I know is a big priority for you as a doctor. By the way, can I get a free consultation? Because there’s something that’s been concerning me. No, I’m playing. I’m playing. Eun: Get in line. Anthony: Right. Right. As a doctor and embedded in the community that way, how has that helped you as a pastor, as a leader of leaders within your church environment? Just curious about how that serves the neighborhood. [00:04:27] Eun: Yeah. I think that, especially here in Hawaii, if you’re not locally rooted in any kind of field of work that you do, then there’s a huge suspicion about why you’re here. I’m not from Hawaii originally. My family immigrated from South Korea during like the third wave of the Immigration Act lifting up so that my family and a lot of East Asians were immigrating to predominantly the East coast. So, I did most of my growing up and adulting in Philadelphia, in West Philadelphia in particular. Everyone’s having the song go through their heads right now. But then about 15 years ago, we moved our three kids, and my husband and I, we moved to Hawaii. And Hawaii has this thing about it. You don’t have credibility or a trust that you actually contribute to the community unless you’re here for 20 years. So even 15 years sound like a long time, but we’re still five years shy of what is culturally accepted as okay. You’re not just here transitioning. You’re here to actually be a part and with our community. So, I feel like being able to doctor on top of pastoring in church planting has given me a more sense of a deeply rooted presence for the folks here in Hawaii. It’s helped. [00:05:51] Anthony: We’re so thankful, as Paul talked about, that we participate in the sufferings of Christ, that you’re suffering in paradise in Hawaii. Thank you for doing that for the sake of the gospel, Eun. But I did want to ask you —I know you’ve written a book and you have, if I’m not mistaken, another book coming out soon, and that’s the one I want to ask you about, because I grew up in a pastor-centric church environment and also a work environment where the mindset was, if you want it done right, do it yourself, which doesn’t exactly build teams, does it? But your latest book, You Are Never Meant to Lead Alone, I’m guessing, has to provide a better pathway forward. So, would you tell us about the premise of the book and what your hopeful outcomes will be for the readers? [00:06:34] Eun: Yeah, absolutely. My first book Centering Discipleship, I always say that it was a love letter to my local church. I feel like it is not just a book on discipleship but something that helps to celebrate that when the entire local community gets behind discipleship actually being centered in your community, in your congregation, then it’s the work of that whole team coming alive, all imitating Jesus together. So, a lot of the work that from this new book on You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone really came from that first work. But this new book, really, I always say that it’s a love letter to myself — probably a lot of the suffering and pains, growing pains, unsolicited pain that’s brought about just from leading. Leading is lonely. It’s hard work. It leads to a lot of burnout, and it can also lead to a lot of domineering, hurtful leadership. And so, I really wanted to write not just a leadership story that also centers somebody who might be familiar, similar to me — someone who is a woman pastor, co-vocational who is an immigrant, who is a person of color. All of these things culminating in them — can someone like that also lead? And what kinds of environments can should all people in the church lead? And if you’re taking a look at the first-century church, it really was that nobody was meant to lead alone. That the first-century church really modeled, especially if you read all throughout Acts, that leadership was shared amongst the most unlikely of characters and heroes together. So, it really is a reminder, not a new concept, but a reminder to the church that if you’re burnt out, feeling lonely, or you’re in a situation of domineering leadership, that’s not what church leadership was meant to be like. It’s meant to be shared because power was meant to be shared. [00:08:39] Anthony: It’s fascinating and I know in my church tribe, denominational tribe, we’re talking a lot about team-based ministry, so I think this book will be of great interest. Where would you, in terms of outlets, content outlet, where would you send people to go buy the book? [00:08:56] Eun: Oh, it’s Amazon. Really? [00:09:00] Anthony: Maybe people have heard of it. [00:09:02] Eun: Everything has been on Amazon. Or you can go to IVP also, that’s our publisher. [00:09:19] Anthony: Okay. Again, the book is called You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, and the author is Eun Strawser. Go get your copy. All right, let’s do this. Let’s dive into the lectionary text that we’ll be discussing for this month. Our first pericope is 2 Timothy 1:1–14. I’m going be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 22 in Ordinary Time, October 5. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, for the sake of the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I am grateful to God—whom I worship with a clear conscience, as my ancestors did—when I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 Recalling your tears, I long to see you so that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that lived first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, lives in you. 6 For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands, 7 for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline. 8 Do not be ashamed, then, of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel, in the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace, and this grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 For this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher, 12 and for this reason I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know the one in whom I have put my trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that day the deposit I have entrusted to him. 13 Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard the good deposit entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us. I’m curious, Eun, what role does family have in faith? Because Paul points out how Timothy’s grandmother and mother, were instrumental in his faith. And feel free to make this personal. [00:11:49] Eun: Oh man, even just from that reading, I need to go sit in a corner, have a good cry. It was so beautiful, Anthony. Oh, it feels so convicting, right? Hearing those words — such a personal letter from the Apostle Paul to someone, a young man that he’s invested so much of his life and work and leadership into. So, it’s just beautiful that he talks about, what is your origin story, right? He’s trying to make it really clear to Timothy that one, that his life is not his own, that there is a whole line, a trainload of people who have come before him to get him to this point now. So, I think family is probably a pivotal for two different reasons, especially as imitators of Jesus. I think one is, it really makes a note for us to have to remember, what are the previous sacrifices and sufferings that other people have put in to get us to our point now? I know from my own story I’m one of the first in my family line to become a Christian. But when I go back — and as a young person, I resented the fact that I was one of the first Christians in my family and how can my parents do this? And yet when I sit down and ask them stories and stories about what happened in their own life, I just can’t help but see all of God’s hands caring for them, leading them to the point where they got to know Jesus, even though it was after me, but in the way that it cared for me. One particular example is when I was in my mother’s womb, my parents are really impoverished. I was the last child of many numbers of children and my mom hadn’t told my father that she was pregnant. And she wanted to go and get a secret abortion. At that time in South Korea, it was very shameful, so, nobody talked about it. And, lo and behold, she’s in the cover of night and a person happened to stop her and it happened to be the local village pastor. She wasn’t a Christian back then. It was the first time that she ever even entered the building of a church, and he asked her to come so he could pray for her. And she was very, very nervous and he prayed that this child would, that God would use his child to help his name be known to her family. And this is my mother telling me as an adult and I just think that, oh, all this time God honored, not just me, and saved me and rescued me. But he’s been holding my mom’s hand whether she knew him at the moment or not. He was holding my father’s hand, my grandparents and all of those things. So, I love that Paul reminds Timothy of his, both his mother and his grandmother’s faith, and how much he has gained honor and all the gifts that he has because of that. I think the second point about family is I think that God really emphasizes the fact how we view family. If we don’t begin to, as Jesus-imitators, see family the way that God does, then we will probably contribute to a lot of bias, a lot of competition, a lot of us-versus-them mentality that honestly, that is overdone in the world today. I think the kingdom of God is trying to offer that. If we begin to see family the way that God does, that there’s an open adoption constantly at the ready, God’s constantly welcoming a new family member, a new kid, a new brother, a sister into the fold, I think that we would think about our own families a little bit differently as well. [00:15:37] Anthony: Yeah, I was just sharing with a friend yesterday that thanks be to God that the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to see the family resemblance in others. And once you see that family resemblance, it changes. It changes relationships, it changes the way that you interact with people on social media, right? This is a brother, this is a sister, this is the beloved of God. How dare I not treat them with dignity and respect? And also, I thank God for the brothers and sisters in the faith that God has given us this family. And I just in this moment, Eun, I’m just so grateful for that village pastor and your mom’s receiving of that, willingness to go into an unknown territory so that God could minister to her. Praise God for that. We’re so glad you’re here. What do you think it means to not be ashamed of our testimony of the Lord? It’s stated in verse 8, and I’m just thinking about the times in Scripture where it tells us that God is never going put us to shame. He’s never going leave us at the altar. So, what does it mean to flip that around and not be ashamed of our testimony? [00:16:44] Eun: Yeah, I think testimony is everything, especially in a culture now where storytelling and the narrative is king. I think whatever part of culture that best tells the best story about humanity, about what love is, about what, let’s say, leadership is, or what family is, I think that constantly tells the rest of the world, the rest of culture, how they’re supposed to behave and act and what kinds of decisions they’re supposed to make. And so, testimony which is storytelling, which is storytelling that witnesses the faithfulness and love and kindness and mercy of God — that is king. If there’s anything that any of us as Jesus followers should be really honing in our gifts and strengths and work in, it’s really fine tuning and working on, what is the testimony? Would we be able to give it at a drop of a hat, right? I know in our community being able to give our own testimony or a witness or storytelling, we always say it’s do you know your own story as part of God’s big story? That’s the equipping we do for all of our disciples. And it’s because we really want to prepare and equip all of the Jesus followers in our local community that their story is important, but also that their story is embedded within God’s beautiful story for us and for the world. So, if our testimony is something that we’re afraid of sharing because we think we’re terrible storytellers or we’re not good communicators, what a loss of story, what a loss of narrative — that Christians should be able to be telling the best story, the best narrative about humanity to the world today. [00:18:36] Anthony: It reminds me of Maya Angelou’s quote that one of the great sadness in human existence is an untold story living inside you. That story needs to be told, and like you said, it’s embedded in God’s story. That’s why when I think of the grand narrative of holy scripture, like when we preach and proclaim the gospel how dare us make it boring, because it’s such a fascinating story, right? It is beautiful and it’s fascinating and it’s glorious and I know some of us are maybe not as charismatic as others, but it’s such a magnificent story. Let’s tell it well. Amen. Amen. [00:19:11] Eun: Yeah, and I think it’s also that it shouldn’t just be a small group of people who are professional storytellers who should be equipped to tell God’s story. The whole point is that the full gospel is meant to be shared by everybody, with everybody, right? I can’t do this by myself. I need to equip my local church to know God’s full story, that they practice articulating it, communicating it, not just training and equipping Jesus followers to be good hearers of God’s story. They should be excellent sharers of God’s story. [00:19:45] Anthony: Ooh, yes and amen. The priesthood of all believers, right? All right, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is 2 Timothy 2:8–15. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 23 in Ordinary Time, October 12. We’d be grateful if you read it for us, please. [00:20:09] Eun: Absolutely. Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David—that is my gospel, 9 for which I suffer hardship, even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, so that they may also obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. 11 The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he will also deny us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself. 14 Remind them of this, and warn them before the Lord that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth. [00:21:04] Anthony: Scripture tells us that the Word of God is not chained, Eun, as Paul wrote in verse 9. For me, this seems to be quite the theological statements and more what say you. [00:21:16] Eun: Yeah, I love that if you think about that word “a chaining” most of us can have certain images, right? For some cultures you can think of imprisonment or enslavement. Others, it feels like restriction. But I love that whatever kind of image that comes in mind for us in the word “chain,” the Apostle Paul is saying that God’s Word doesn’t interact that way. It’s not a dealing with any type of enslavement or imprisonment or being restricted — that there’s no bounds with it. It is never chained down. It’s never restricted. It will only do what it’s meant to do — constantly. And so, I love that the Word of God not being chained also doesn’t bear responsibility on us. There’s nothing that we can do to enhance it or limit it — that God’s Word is freely just constantly expanding and growing. It gets more and more beautiful as time goes on. So, I love that Paul’s reminder to Timothy is, I think it really is, a word like, do your best for sure. Keep on proclaiming God’s truth, but don’t worry, your human failures and mistakes will never limit God’s Word. I think the other thing about God’s Word not being chained is that restriction point — that I think that it also is a word to say that God’s Word and God’s story — again, going to that full gospel — is that it needs to be not restricted by just one culture. That whatever locally rooted place that we may all be living in or be ministering in and loving Jesus and loving others in, that the gospel makes sense to that local culture too. That it isn’t some human culture that we’re trying to present, that it’s another effort to colonize or assimilate a different culture. It’s that God’s Word is not chained up or bound up by human deeds or mechanics. That God’s Word is understandable and relatable and beautiful and true in every single local context. [00:23:30] Anthony: Yeah, and I sometimes, this is just a personal pet peeve of mine. I don’t know if you’d agree with me, Eun. But I’ll hear people say we’ve got to make the Word of God relevant. I just find it is relevant and you contextualize it to your situation, but it’s always relevant. And it was relevant then, and it’s relevant now. And as you said, it’s liberating. And I was just pondering a text in Luke chapter 13 where Jesus encounters a woman who’d been bent over for 18 years and he says, “You are set free.” And that’s what God does and that’s what his Word does, right? It liberates people. And if it’s not liberating, it’s not the Word of God because that’s what the Word of God does. It may mess with you at first and it may get all up in your grill, but it sets you free because that’s who God is. I find verse 13 to be so very encouraging. If we are faithless or feeling like we’re not full of faith in one day, we find that Jesus Christ remains faithful. Do you find that encouraging and what would you want to share with our audience? [00:24:36] Eun: Oh man. It’s not meant to be convicting, that’s for sure. Or accusatory. I love that there’s so much mercy. But what a wonderful life and call that God gives us, right, that he’s saying that we are fully capable and able to live a life imitating Jesus, that this is good for us, this is good for our family, this is good for our neighborhoods, this is good for the world around us. But it doesn’t bank on your strength. It doesn’t demand a perfection from you, that you can have bad days and God is full of mercy. This whole thing works. This big project of the gospel transforming all of us in the world around us only works, not because of our strength. It only works because Jesus is faithful, because he’s the faithful one. I think that it’s not meant to be convicting, that it’s supposed to be great encouragement that God is truly with us in this. [00:25:41] Anthony: And he is the faithful one. And what I find is some people are afraid when the gospel, as they would say, gives away too much. We don’t want to be faithful, so of course we don’t. But because we know he is faithful and we live and move and have our being in him, this is a faithful response — to be faithful because he’s so good, right? And so thankful that we can look to Jesus and see not only an example, but the one who abides in us by his Spirit, helping us to be faithful and strong. Let’s move on to our next text. It’s 2 Timothy 3:14–4:5. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 24 in Ordinary Time, October 19. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have known sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work. 4 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I solemnly urge you: 2 proclaim the message; be persistent whether the time is favorable or unfavorable; convince, rebuke, and encourage with the utmost patience in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound teaching, but, having their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths. 5 As for you, be sober in everything, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, carry out your ministry fully. Eun, I’d be grateful for your exegesis of 2 Timothy 3:14–17. Feel free to preach, preacher. [00:27:52] Eun: It’s a hard one, right? I do love that. I think a lot of times when people read this passage, they miss the point. I think that they can misrepresent what Paul is trying to tell Timothy to do. And I think most of the time it’s really for Timothy to just be a good preaching pastor, or a good teaching pastor, right? But no, the biggest thing that the Pastor Paul is telling why he’s talking about what scripture is like and what God’s Word is able to do, right? [00:28:31] Anthony: Yes. [00:28:31] Eun: It really is because he’s saying equip God’s people for every good work. Get them to a point where they are proficient in what it means to be a Jesus follower. That doesn’t necessarily just mean preach to them or teach them a scripture. It means get them ready, get them prepared. Are all of your congregants able to be proficient? Are they competent in not just knowing a lot about God and who Jesus is and those kinds of things, but are they actually competent to live like Jesus? Are they competent and proficient to do God’s good work with their neighbors through their family, in their workplaces, at the coffee shop that they go to regularly, in the grocery store, in neighborhood parties, or neighborhood meetings, right? I think that’s what the apostle Paul is saying, can you do the good work? Can you be faithful and endure and do this good work of not doing God’s work on behalf of your church? It’s can you get your church equipped so that they are doing God’s work together for the sake of the flourishing of the neighborhood around them? I think that’s a strong emphasis to remember that the Apostle Paul is not telling Timothy to be a good preacher. He’s telling him to be a good equipper so that his congregation can participate in the good work that God’s already doing. [00:29:55] Anthony: Yeah, that’s an important word. Paul wrote in Ephesians 4 that our call is to equip the saints for the works of Christ. And I think the pastors moving forward, they really need to be taken a posture of a coach, one who empowers others so that we see the whole body mature into the head who is Christ, right? And what this keeps us from doing is what we talked about earlier from being pastor-centric, right? If we’re equipping the believers, we’re going to do this together. [00:30:31] Eun: You must have already read my book, Anthony. [00:30:35] Anthony: I was going to say, if you need, if you’re a pastor and you need help in this area, I know somebody who runs a collaborative called `Iwa Collaborative. They may be able to help you out with this. As we look on Paul writes to persist in proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times. I get the sense that right now in a post-Christian neopagan world, these are unfavorable times. So, what does it look like, Eun, to persist? [00:31:04] Eun: Isn’t it so encouraging that the same problem that was written about all that time ago, it’s the same problem that we are facing today. I think it’s great encouragement that Timothy and Paul are going through the same persistence in proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times, and so are we. And I love that the apostle Paul gives Timothy a lot of clarity around what that ought to look like, right? He talks a lot about our motivation to lead. Man, that’s so convicting, right? He’s saying, please double check why you lead, why you think God has given you this group of people to lead and love. If it’s for selfish gain and selfish desire, then you probably ought not to lead. But if it’s so that, again you are trying to proclaim God’s truth because you believe that God’s truth is the only transforming power that will actually, in real life, in real time, transform a community of people to also want to participate in what God’s doing in the world around them, man, what a call for all of us. But if it has any inkling of a selfish desire or selfish ambition, and this is why we are fulfilling our call, then we probably should step aside. So, I think that the first thing around proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times is really to review our own motivations as leaders. Do we do this because we think that there’s a personal gain for us in it, we get popularity somehow? We get to have power and control. We just feel good having this mantle. Or do we do it for the sake of other people? I think the second thing about persistence is, I love that it just relies on God’s truth. That if you really stick to proclaiming God’s truth, you don’t have to do this weird, convincing, performative perfection dance. Let God’s Word do its thing. I think that is what the Apostle Paul is telling Timothy — live out God’s truth. Proclaim God’s truth in every way that you are equipping other people or living your own life or making decisions. Like, if you stick close to God’s Word and God’s truth, … that is the way to persevere through unfavorable times. God’s Word is not that popular most of the time. When we are speaking truth against power, that’s not popular most of the time. If we’re naming the fact that there are people who are ostracized and marginalized in society, that’s not popular to talk about. If we talk about that, really, essentially, the gospel is really very comforting, it ought to be comforting to those who are the most uncomfortable in society and make uncomfortable those who experience most comfort in society. That is an upside-down way of thinking, right? It should have an impact. And so, I think that gospel is made for unfavorable times. [00:34:12] Anthony: It is, and I couldn’t help but think of that old statement that the gospel should comfort the afflicted. But it should afflict the comfortable. And that’s what it does, and I’m reading this a great new little book called Preaching in a New Key. And it’s about preaching to post-Christian societies like we’re living in. And the author of the book said this. Are we — going back to what you asked — what is our motivation? Are we motivated because we’re called to preach or are we just offloading trauma? And I was like, whoa. It’s in your face, but it’s true. We’ve got to check ourselves as ministers of the gospel. Is it love? Because that’s the motivation, right? It is love. The love of Christ may manifest in our lives, and that’s why we proclaim this good news in the face of opposition, for sure. Alright friends, we’re down to our last text. Time is flying by. It is 2 Timothy 4:6–8, 16–18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 25 in Ordinary Time, October 26. Would you read it for us please? [00:35:30] Eun: As for me, I am already being poured out as a libation, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. 8 From now on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing. 16 At my first defense no one came to my support, but all deserted me. May it not be counted against them! 17 But the Lord stood by me and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion’s mouth. 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. [00:36:17] Anthony: Amen. “But the Lord stood by me and gave me strength.” Those are such good words. What would you say to Christians who want to declare with confidence like Paul did, “I fought the good fight.” Maybe they haven’t finished the race yet, but they’re running the race faithfully. What gives Paul the right to make such a bold claim? [00:36:37] Eun: Oh, I’m like crying in my little corner again, reading that passage. I actually think that it’s what Paul has been talking about all along. It’s that it’s because Jesus has already done that work. He’s already fought that fight. He’s already finished that race. And again, he is the one who is most faithful. So, I feel like Paul’s bold claim isn’t really about him. His boldness and his confidence still rest in the fact that he can do all of these things and proclaim all these things about himself because he’s relied in utter, utter dependence on Jesus the Christ. [00:37:17] Anthony: Preach. Yes. [00:37:18] Eun: I think that, and I just love that the things that he talks about is he’s going receive this crown of righteousness and all these things, and it’s because all he did was long for Jesus, long to be in his presence, long for his appearing. I love that. That’s where the effort lies in. Do we like love Jesus that much? When you think about a bold proclamation in today’s society that maybe humiliates us or makes us feel a little bit shy, but we still feel like it’s worth it to do it, it really always centers around love, doesn’t it? Romantic love and those silly stories and movies and things. So, we’re captivated by it because some, for some reason, it transforms people to do these things. And I love that at the end, Paul is proclaiming that he’s loved Jesus, that he’s loved God, that he’s longed for him all this time. And I think that’s where his boldness comes from. [00:38:19] Anthony: The scripture says, but the Lord stood by me and gave me strength. Verse 17. As a final word, Eun, how have you personally experienced the Lord standing by you and giving you strength in your own life? We’d love to hear from you. [00:38:35] Eun: Yeah, I think again, my new book You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, a love letter to myself, and I say this, embarrassed, a little bit shy about it, but I wept so much having to recall the suffering and loneliness and pain points in this life, really, really trying to lead in ways and minister in ways where it felt like suffering so many times. And I know that my only strength really is because the Lord stood by me. I remember when my husband and I had visited Jerusalem and we were in the garden of Gethsemane. And it was such a busy tour and things, but they gave us one little quiet moment to be able to sit and reflect. And I remember just sitting in that garden and crying out to God because it was right after experiencing such a depth of betrayal within the church context. And I feel like Jesus said, “I understand what it means to be betrayed.” This is him telling me in the Garden of Gethsemane. And he said, “And yet, I still moved forward. I still said a “yes” to being crucified because there’s resurrection on the other side of it.” And I felt like only Jesus could call me forward that way because he’s experienced all of the suffering and so much in greater amount than I ever will. And so, yeah. The Lord stood by me and gave me strength in my darkest of times, in times of betrayal, in times of loneliness, in times of failure, the mistakes. The Lord stood by me and gave me strength. [00:40:26] Anthony: And it seems that way to me, Eun. Thank you for sharing that story of your own experience. The scripture time and time again takes us back to remembering, like, remember what the Lord has done for you. I’m thinking of Hagar in the desert when God meets her in her moment of just great distress and saves her, and she calls him El Roi, the God Who Sees. I think it’s so important that we remember, God sees us; he sees the pain; he understands. We have a high priest who understands. And that’s just such a good word because anytime we’re standing up proclaiming the gospel in a church, there are people in the pews that are really, really hurting. And to be able to say … and I thank you for sharing your story, and I know you said it’s maybe hard to talk about, but I’m grateful for that because your strength that you receive from the Lord strengthens me. And so, in that way, as I look back on my own life, I give thanks for the times that I was walking through the valley, the shadow of death, because it was in those times that I really sensed the Lord’s presence and his faithfulness and his strength. I give thanks for those times. I don’t want to go back. I don’t want to do it again, but I’m so thankful, and I think it’s just so important as part of our testimony, we share those things, don’t you, because I just think it strengthens the whole body. And so, we do that. And I just thank you for you sharing yours. I’m grateful for you and I’ve told you this before, but you can be my pastor anytime. It’d be awesome. I’d love to move to Hawaii, but I don’t think that’s in the cards for me. But again, I’m just so grateful for you. And folks check out her books on Amazon, the two books that we’ve previously mentioned. And I certainly want thank our team that helped make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. So grateful to work with them and, Eun, as is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we close with a word of prayer. So, thank you for being here and please pray for us. [00:42:41] Eun: I’d love to. Jesus, I just thank you that you see us. Thank you for being the God who takes the time, makes the effort, values seeing each and every one of us, and I pray that you would give us the courage and boldness and deep sense of joy and love to also see you. Would you make us seeing you be visible and public to those around us? Would our ability to long for your appearing, long for your presence, long to see you face to face be such a love that proclaims to the world around them an invitation to enter into this kind of relationship with you. Where it’s full of flourishing and mercy and grace and truth and beauty that none of us could really imagine fully. Thank you that you understand suffering, you understand betrayal, you understand all of our failures and unfaithful moments, and you remain to be the one who is faithful and is for us. It’s in your good name we pray. Amen. [00:43:58] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!The post Rev. Dr. Eun Strawser—Year C Proper 22-25 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Rev. Dr. Jared Michelson—Year C Proper 18-21 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Rev. Dr. Jared Michelson. Jared is a Presbyterian minister and a research fellow at the University of St. Andrews School of Divinity. His research interests include but not excluded to the doctrine of the divine attributes and Reformed thoughts, the doctrine of God, and the crisis of modernity and theology and economy after Barth. Jared, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we’d like to get to know you a bit, your story, projects you may be working on, and ultimately how you are participating with the Lord Jesus Christ. [00:01:31] Jared: Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be with you. Yeah, I live in St. Andrews, Scotland. I’ve lived here for about 12 years, but I’m from the states originally and came over here to study. But during that time, I was ordained in a denomination here in Scotland and have two young daughters. My wife is named Becky. She came over with me from the States. We actually had only been married for one month before we moved here. So, our entire married life has been in Scotland. We just decided to do all of the transitions in one glorious and terrifying moment. So yeah. I’m a researcher now, which means in theory, most of my day is meant to be spent researching and writing, although in actual practice a lot of my time ends up being spent teaching and helping with the Divinity School. Here I’m involved with what’s called our Systematic and Historical Theology Masters, and I’m also still very much involved with the church here, both locally and nationally. [00:02:32] Anthony: Since you’re at St. Andrews, I have to ask you this, because I’ve had friends who have lived there, either participating in the School of Divinity or just going to play a round of golf. And when I ask them about St. Andrews typically, Jared, they get this just far-away look in their eyes of enchantment. What makes St. Andrews so special? [00:02:54] Jared: Yeah, a lot of things do. Obviously, the big thing I suppose is that it’s the home of golf, the oldest golf course in the world. And so, when you tell a golfer that you live in St. Andrews, and as I do not— you do not — play golf, it’s really like committing a war crime. It’s deeply idolatrous to them. You can lose friends very quickly when you admit you live in St. Andrews and don’t play golf. So that’s one of the reasons. But it’s also the oldest university in Scotland. It’s a beautiful, small town. But one of the things I’ve loved about living here is it’s also a place with a lot of need. And having been in ministry here, anyone that’s been in ministry, in any community, I think you see there’s the kind of beautiful exterior and then there’s another side that’s maybe not as obvious. So, I love this community. Yes, you can come for a few days and be taken up by the mystique, but there’s also a lot of need, but a lot of wonderful people doing great work seeking to serve Jesus. I was just for example, at a youth camp this week from a bunch of the different churches and Christian organizations in town — young people hearing about the gospel. So, there’s that side of it which is just as beautiful to me as the kind of golf course and cathedral and things like that. [00:04:13] Anthony: We already have common ground because for me, that little golf ball Is the embodiment of the Satan. It’s just that I have friends that love golf; I respect them, but nothing drives me more batty than trying to hit that little golf ball. [00:04:30] Jared: Yeah. We really do have that in common, because I have to confess, I did try playing golf at one point, and so perhaps I’m just a failed golfer more than anything else. [00:04:38] Anthony: Maybe at some point our paths will cross and we can play golf badly together. So, how’s that? Hey, I wasn’t planning to ask you this, but maybe briefly, what are you researching right now, if you don’t mind me asking it? [00:04:55] Jared: As you mentioned before, a lot of my work has been on the doctrine of God, which can sound a bit funny. When I first came here, the first three years I was here, I worked in a pub. And if you, obviously, if people say, what are you doing here? And when you say the doctrine of God, people have no idea what that means. So, very soon when people said, what are you doing here? I just would say, I study God, which would oftentimes start some very interesting and strange conversations over a pint. But, to me, the issue of God’s character, who God is, why we can have confidence that we can know who he is — I see this as the perennial fundamental question of our time. Can we trust that we have good reason to know God? And what is God really like and what difference does that make to every facet of life? So that’s obviously a very general way of putting it, but those are the kind of questions that have motivated all of my academic work, and I’m continuing that trajectory now. [00:05:46] Anthony: Oh, that’s good. And as we come to the text for this month, we’re always asking the question of theology — who is God and who has he revealed himself to be in Jesus Christ? Let’s get to it. Let’s move to our first text of the month. It’s Philemon 1:1-21. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 18 in Ordinary Time, September 7, and it reads, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To our beloved coworker Philemon, 2 to our sister Apphia, to our fellow soldier Archippus, and to the church in your house: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.4 I thank my God always when I mention you in my prayers, 5 because I hear of your love for all the saints and your faith toward the Lord Jesus. 6 I pray that the partnership of your faith may become effective as you comprehend all the good that we share in Christ. 7 I have indeed received much joy and encouragement from your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, my brother.8 For this reason, though I am more than bold enough in Christ to command you to do the right thing, 9 yet I would rather appeal to you on the basis of love—and I, Paul, do this as an old man and now also as a prisoner of Christ Jesus. 10 I am appealing to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me. 12 I am sending him, that is, my own heart, back to you. 13 I wanted to keep him with me so that he might minister to me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel, 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your good deed might be voluntary and not something forced. 15 Perhaps this is the reason he was separated from you for a while, so that you might have him back for the long term, 16 no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother—especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. 17 So if you consider me your partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has wronged you in any way or owes you anything, charge that to me. 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand: I will repay it. I say nothing about your owing me even your own self. 20 Yes, brother, let me have this benefit from you in the Lord! Refresh my heart in Christ. 21 Confident of your obedience, I am writing to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask. So, Jared, I wanted to ask you if you were preaching, proclaiming this text to a congregation, what would be the focus of your heralding? [00:08:50] Jared: There’s loads of different methods that people have for preaching, ways that they organize a sermon. And I don’t think there’s any right one right way or wrong way. And obviously any kind of method like that becomes formulaic can be really unhelpful. And I think you want to be guided by the text itself, not by your method. Nonetheless, sometimes it does help to have something to help organize your thinking a bit. And for me, one of the things I try to do, especially because when I do preach in St. Andrews, it is to a very diverse audience. It’s not … I can’t assume that people are interested in the gospel, that they accept the authority of scripture. And I feel even in that, to me, the first thing you want to say is you want to earn your right to be heard. And in this text, I feel like in that sense, it’s very easy because it raises this just profound existential question. Paul is writing to Philemon asking him to accept back this runaway slave, Onesimus, and it raises these questions: Is Paul somehow endorsing slavery? Is he, even if he seems to be appealing on Onesimus’ behalf, but is he in so doing, is he somehow accepting the institution? Does this mean Christianity is pro-slavery? What do we do about the fact that at times Christians in the past were pro-slavery? So, to me, I think that that’s right where I would go. And I think this passage, when we read it in context, I think it just has an incredibly liberatory message far from — this is a very controversial issue, but I’ll just jump right in — far from endorsing the institution of slavery, in verse 8 and 9, Paul says basically, I could just tell you to do the right thing. In other words, Philemon, the right thing to do is to release Onesimus. That’s not in doubt. This is someone that is following in the way of Jesus. The question is, how do we move towards this vision of justice? And what I think we find in the New Testament is a text that is not laying out a political vision for society. For example, when Paul instructs people in Romans 13 to obey the emperor, do we take that and say, “Ah, what this means is Paul is endorsing a politics that has an emperor and he’s opposed to democracy?” No, that, that’s not the sort of text Romans is. Paul isn’t giving his ideal account of how the government should be set up. He’s saying, given the situation you find yourself in, how can you behave in a way that reflects the ethics of the kingdom of God? And that’s very much what I see Paul doing here as well. He’s not endorsing the institution of slavery. Again, he’s saying, I could tell you the right thing to do. But he’s actually appealing to a deeper motivation. He’s basically saying if you understood the gospel, if you understood the fullness of what you’ve received in Jesus, then this issue would resolve itself. You would realize that what you have here is a brother, and you would have to think through, how do I treat this other in light of their status as a beloved child of God? There is still something provocative for us, though, here, if I can keep going, Anthony. Is that all right? [00:12:31] Anthony: Please. You’re on a roll, man. Let’s go. [00:12:33] Jared: What is provocative about it is that we would like Paul to proceed differently. We would think, “Paul, this slaveholder is an evil, wicked person. Why would you possibly say to him, respond to his sin of slaveholding, in this roundabout way that appeals to the gospel of Jesus Christ rather than just exposing his utter wickedness?” And the truth is, I understand that feeling, there’s something absolutely right about our modern reaction to this text, which lives in a culture that has been I think, informed by the ethic of the gospel and that sees slavery for the horror and the wickedness that it is. And yet what is so beautiful about the gospel is that it meets all of us where we are. In other words, where the gospel meets the slaveholder in this culture is not at all endorsing their slaveholding, but is nonetheless trying to restore and free the slave, while also redeeming the slaveholder. And so, the challenge of this text is we oftentimes wish that Paul had responded to the slaveholders of his day much more harshly. And yet, do we want the same for us? Do we think that if God looked at our own wickedness and our own brokenness and the things that we as a culture are totally blind to, that we would merit a different response? I doubt that. I remember a good friend of mine recently — we were going through a really difficult situation. Someone had made a big mistake that was in our community. And they said to me, it feels like we are free in the church to say we’re sinners but we’re not actually free to commit a bad sin. In other words, it’s absolutely fine if you get up in front of heaven and you say I’ve sinned in all sorts of ways and state it with generalities and vagueness, but as soon as you say something you’ve done and it is something that is destructive and that is harmful and that hurts another person, we suddenly don’t want people to get grace anymore. We want to go straight in with the law. [00:15:00] Anthony: Sure. [00:15:00] Jared: And so, part of what I think is scandalous about Philemon … look, part of it is it’s a difficult text. I absolutely recognize that. … But part of it is that I think it is a way of being utterly opposed to slavery, that is nonetheless opposing slavery with a gospel message and a call to what’s sometimes called evangelical repentance. I don’t know if you’ve heard that phrase before, that the reason we repent is not just because of the law — though it’s not opposed to that — but it’s because of such a profound realization of the grace or the gospel that we’ve received. So, that’s part of the message that I see here. Yes. Part of the reason it’s scandalous to us is because we live in a culture that now where slavery is no longer accepted at all, which is a wonderful good thing, which I think again, we could talk about is partially produced by the gospel. Indeed, Nietzsche in his criticism of religion called Christianity a slave’s religion. He saw that it was a religion, when it says there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free; it was a religion that was from the beginning deeply for the downtrodden and the oppressed. And that is part of what has transformed our society. But again, the other reason I think we struggle with it is because when people actually do real sins, they don’t just talk about sin in vague general terms. We oftentimes rush to want to see them destroyed and pushed down, not redeemed from within by the gospel. [00:16:24] Anthony: Yeah, it’s powerful what you said. And I’m just thinking back to the very beginning when you said, when you proclaim the gospel, it’s often with people that are diverse in the group — there’s diversity there, but there’s also those that don’t necessarily believe in the authority of scripture. Jared: Absolutely. Anthony: And so, a text like this is very appealing because it really does get to the heart of the human condition. Not just slavery, but like you said, sin — whatever sin looks like in a person’s life. And it’s powerful to see Paul’s approach with the brother here. And to me, it is it just shows how forgiveness, reconciliation — it’s all a part of the healing process. Which really brings me to the next question, because I’ve heard some people say that this appeal that Paul makes, it puts forgiveness and justice at odds. But is that really the case? What’s going on here? [00:17:23] Jared: Yeah. I think that’s another huge issue, isn’t it? I think we know forgiveness and justice aren’t at odds, and part of the reason is because, again, if we just ask, do we think that what would be the best thing for a slaveholder is that they would be forgiven and they would be allowed to continue in their slaveholding? I think the answer is obviously no, primarily, and firstly, because God cares for the good of the slave, but secondarily because God cares for the good of the slaveholder. There’s a quote from Herbert McCabe, who is a Cambridge Dominican theologian, and he said, “Look, sin always hurts the other.  Sin always has harmful effects on the other, but what makes sin sin, what defines sin as sin, is actually what it does to the perpetrator. And what he means by this is, he’s not saying it’s more important, like the sometimes the bigger deal, so to speak, is what sin does to the other person. But you can accidentally hurt another person. If you accidentally performed some action and then you intentionally perform the same action and it had the same result on the other person. One of those would just be a terrible accident. But the other that was intentional and deliberate would be sin. So, if the effect on the other is the same what makes a difference? What makes one just a terrible accident? And the other a sin? And the difference is that sin mars, the soul; it destroys the sinner. And so, when you look at this all throughout the Christian tradition and then some — it has this long discussion on how in order for God to be merciful to the sinner he has to be just, because the best thing for us is to be freed from our sin which makes us less than fully human. The tragedy for the slaveholder is yes, first and foremost what they’ve done to the other, but it’s also how they are marring and defacing their own humanity. This is a beautiful person made in the image of God who has somehow become so distorted that they can hold another in bondage. So, the way that God’s mercy works itself out in our life is actually through justice, through God moving us towards a more humane way of living, which is ultimately for the good of the world and for the good of the other, absolutely. But it’s also equally for our own good and were God to give a kind of mercy that wasn’t transformative, a “cheap grace,” as Bonhoeffer said, that didn’t make us different, that would be a profound lack of kindness and mercy to us because it would be leaving us trapped in a dehumanizing way of living. [00:20:07] Anthony: Now you’re meddling because … and I absolutely agree that God loves the perpetrator just as much as the victim, and he loves the perpetrator so much that he is just. And confronts him. And but boy, we just want … smite the perpetrator, Almighty Smiter! That’s our desire. But that person is an image bearer of God. The Imago Dei is there and sometimes we forget how that’s harming that image within them, that God is still for them, but he is so for them that he is going to confront the sin. And thanks be to God. That is kindness. It is kindness to show compassion in such a way that faces up against that which would harm another. That’s what good news is to the other. “Stop it!” And that’s what Paul is telling Philemon here. [00:21:02] Jared: Absolutely. Absolutely. We can sometimes have this kind of schizophrenic vision of God. I certainly did — I could tell a long story about that — where we think that God has two sides. The one side is loving and good, and the bad side is justice and wrath. And that orthodoxy means balancing those two sides. And I think that is, yeah, I think that’s a kind of — I don’t want to overstate it here — but I do think that’s in danger of being a kind of pagan view of God. [00:21:29] Anthony: Yeah. [00:21:30] Jared: That God’s, as the Puritans talked about, God’s justice or his wrath is just the strange side of his love. It’s not something different. It’s not something in competition. It’s his utter and decided will for the flourishing of all he has made. And his settled opposition to what is defacing and dehumanizing and destructive.  It’s a way his goodness expresses itself for our good. [00:21:55] Anthony: Well said, my friend. Let’s transition to the next pericope of the month. It is 1 Timothy 1:12-17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 19 in Ordinary Time, which is September 14. Jared, would you read it for us, please? [00:22:15] Jared: Yeah. I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because he considered me faithful and appointed me to his service, 13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a man of violence. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the foremost. 16 But for that very reason I received mercy, so that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display the utmost patience as an example to those who would come to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. [00:23:08] Anthony: So, you’re a researcher that focuses on the doctrine of God. So, tell us about this God revealed in Jesus Christ through this text. [00:23:17] Jared: Yeah, it tells us a great deal about this God, doesn’t it? One of the things that really jumps out to me, and I think this does get to the character of God, maybe it’s getting there in a roundabout way, is that Paul seems to say something that is very implausible.  Is it the case, that Paul is actually the worst of all sinners? The fact that God enjoins us sometimes to enact what we might call moral fictions to counteract the ways we can go wrong by living as if something were the case. So, think of Philippians, I think it is, when he says, consider others more significant than yourself. Does that mean that literally you are less valuable and other people are more valuable? I don’t think so. The way I sometimes describe it when I’m doing a wedding with people is saying, one of the things I had to learn for myself is that I have a remarkable capacity to keep meticulous detail of all of the chores I have done around the house, and to just so happen to not see all the ways, all the things that my wife has done. And I’m not doing that deliberately. It’s my kind of blindness. And so actually, if I just try to keep things 50/50, they won’t be 50/50 at all. I need to try to treat her as more significant than myself. And I think that’s part of what Paul is saying here. This isn’t a kind of worm theology where Paul is saying, “I’m so bad” and he’s whipping himself. Instead, to your point, he is I think overwhelmed by the grace of God, the mercy that he has received. And that is him choosing to live a life that is continually aware of that. And that’s his motivating sensor. One of the words that really jumps out to me is in verse 16 where it says, Jesus has showed patience with me. And this actually becomes a really important word in the Christian tradition. And funnily enough, it’s one of the words that helps create our modern idea of tolerance. We sometimes think that tolerance just means being a relativist or being indifferent, but it doesn’t mean that at all. Tolerance means bearing with something that you find objectionable for the sake of maintaining communion or relationship or community with the others. And with the other. And this is what God does with us — that despite our brokenness, despite our sinfulness, God is continually bearing with that so that he can maintain union with us and communion with us and drawing us into deeper union with him. So, to me that’s a part of the kind of beautiful vision of God’s character that Paul is talking about here. He’s not emphasizing his sin to beat himself down, but he’s overwhelmed by the fact that though he can look back and see all of his many missteps, that God has been walking with him through that all the time. He’s that kind of good shepherd, walking with us through the valley of death and being patient with us in countless ways we don’t know. So yeah, to me that patience is a wonderful kind of exemplification of God’s character and love. [00:26:38] Anthony: Yeah, my eyes are drawn to verse 14, “the grace of our Lord overflowed.”  Andrew Purvis talks about this super overflowing abundance in God. It overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Overflowing good. Yes … including the patience that you mentioned. It seems odd to me that people would interpret the text this way, but I have seen some react to this interpretation that God is conditional, that Paul was strengthened by the Lord because he was considered faithful. Verse 12, he received mercy because he acted out of ignorance, not willfully. In verse 13. So, Jared, is God’s kindness based on conditions? [00:27:27] Jared: No, but I think it goes back to a bit of what we spoke about before. There are conditions and there are conditions. Let me put it this way … [00:27:40] Anthony: Tell me more. [00:27:42] Jared: This is an analogy I’ve used before, where we can go back to this kind of idea of slaveholding. I’m not an expert on these things, but apparently this kind of situation actually did happen in the American South. You had the legal declaration that slavery as an institution was ended. And so, you had men and women that were held slaves, that lived in terrible conditions, that were forced to do backbreaking labor, that had very little agency and very little prospects in life. Slavery was abolished, and then they went to live in the exact same houses. They worked in the exact same fields. They had the exact same limited prospects in life doing the exact same back-breaking labor, but they received a very small amount of money at the end of the week, which they had to use to pay for those very terrible houses they used to live in. Would we say that person is free? Formally, perhaps their official condition is free, but if nothing has materially changed about the facts of their life, they’re not actually living as free people. They’re functionally still in bondage. And so, part of what the gospel … and I think sometimes we view the gospel that way when we say, is there no conditions? What is there isn’t is any standard you need to meet in order to be forgiven. Part of the kind of amazing discovery of the reformation is that Jesus has he has paid the penalty for sin. And that being united with him allows you to have in a sense all of the conditions met, but it necessarily will lead you into a new life. And you are not actually being freed. You are not actually being saved. You are not actually living in Christ unless you are living a renewed, transformed, different life. Not so that you can earn God’s favor, but so that you can actually experience salvation. You can live as a free person and this too is not somehow something you earn off on your own. It’s living into your union with Christ. It is grace upon grace. It is, as Paul said, working out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in you. [00:30:06] Anthony: Yeah, that brings some great insight in terms of just the way that we experience salvation. And thanks be to God that salvation is not a one and done act. But it’s the ongoing perpetual reality of God that he is saving us, that he is delivering us from bondage each and every day. Hallelujah. Praise God for that. And so that makes sense. It almost puts a subjective reading on scripture like, yes, this is objectively true what God has done — forgiving me, but it’s there is this act of living into the salvation that he has so graciously given to us. I think that’s what you’re saying, right? [00:31:00] Jared: That’s exactly what I’m saying. I think you’ve put it as, as often happens with me, I think you’ve put it far better than I have, so thanks for doing that. But exactly the New Testament speaks of salvation as something that is being completed and as something that is completed. It is both of those. And sometimes we can have this very unhelpful view that being saved is just simply a question of, am I going to heaven or not? And that is not at all how the New Testament uses this very multifaceted language of being saved. You are always in danger when you try to summarize the richness of the gospel. But for me, the gospel is about the renewal, the restoration of our entire person. Indeed, it is about forgiveness. It is about eternal life, but it is just as much about living this abundant life in Christ now, being restored and renewed into his image, and then making this entire cosmos new. [00:31:41] Anthony: That reminds me of a quote from Eugene Peterson where he said, resurrection is not exclusively what happens after we’re buried. It has to do with the way we live right now. The kingdom is near; the kingdom is here. Let’s be about the Father’s business. [00:31:55] Jared: Absolutely. That is the meaning of that word. [00:32:01] Anthony: Our next text for the month is 1 Timothy 2:1-7. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 20 in Ordinary Time, which is September 21. First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time. 7 For this I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth; I am not lying), a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth. This is a brief but powerfully rich theological text. God desires everyone to be saved, verse 4. Jared, what does this declaration tell us about God, the church, and anthropology, human worth? [00:33:19] Jared: Yeah. I really like that last bit of the question. What does it tell us about anthropology and human worth? Because I think it tells us quite a lot. Verse 5 has this proclamation of monotheism: “for there is one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humankind, Jesus Christ.” This is actually profoundly significant for developing ideas of human dignity, human rights. When you look at the ancient world, Christian monotheism was not just about how many gods there are. In fact, it wasn’t really about how many Gods there are or not, because at times Paul seems to say there’s lots of false gods. There might actually be some malevolent powers that are kind of God-like in a bad way. It was more about the character of the one God and the one God that is revealed in Jesus Christ. Paganism had this way of relating to God, and you see the prophets particularly in what’s called the post-exilic text, particularly in the bits of the Old Testament that are when Israel is trying to reckon with the exile, they are constantly critiquing the pagan deities. And the critique is less about how many gods there are. The critique is that your gods are needy —paganism in this way. And they had a vision of God that was based on exchange. If you want your crops to grow, if you want your nation to be protected, if you want to have a large nation, then the key is treating the god rightly. If you give the god the proper sacrifice, then he will make your crops grow. If you sacrifice just a little bit of something that is valuable to you, then he will give you something even more valuable. If you sacrifice a few of your crops, he’ll make your crops grow. If you sacrifice an animal, he’ll protect your nation. And on and on it goes. And the kind of terrible dialectic of idolatry is that out of desire, out of seeking something that you think will make you happy, whether it is flourishing or protection or a large family, you end up giving more and more to the god. The gods are needy, they’re demanding, and eventually you end up giving the thing that is most precious to you for the sake of your own happiness, because of course, the horrible conclusion of idolatry. This idolatrous dynamic that the prophets critique is child sacrifice. You give literally the most precious thing in the world to you for the sake of your own desire. And the prophets constantly have this exalted, transformed, monotheistic vision of God, which just cuts off that logic of exchange right from the beginning. In the Psalms, God will say, “I have the cattle on a thousand hills. If I needed anything, I wouldn’t have asked you. In other words, there’s no exchange needed here. My goodness doesn’t need to be bought. It doesn’t need to be bargained with. And the reason is actually because I am so full of life, I’m the Creator of all things. I’m not one small pagan tribal deity that you can bargain with that’s just for your nation and not others. I’m the God who made all things, and therefore I’m so endlessly rich that the needs of bargaining couldn’t even enter into the equation to begin with.” But the other implication of this is that when you have a pagan god, when you say, we’re the Babylonians and we have Marduk and he’s our god, and we’re some Canaanite tribe and we have Baal and he is our god, your gods are for you and not for anyone else. They work for you if you pay them off, and they’re opposed to the other. And so, when you look at the ancient world, they don’t have our modern idea that all humans have shared dignity and value just because they are human. When you read Aristotle, he has a very different view. He says, some people were born to be slaves and other people were born to rule. He said, some people were born Greeks or Romans, and some people were born barbarians. And they’re almost as if these are different sorts of species, as if to be a Roman and to have our gods makes us of a fundamentally different kind than these other sorts of beings. And so, part of the revolution of monotheism and particularly Christian monotheism is saying, if there’s one God overall, then he operates with us out of his goodness, not by bargaining, but two, he is the God for all people, not just for us. As I said before, there’s no slave nor free. There’s no Greek nor barbarian. And that’s why Paul on Act 17, when he comes to speak to the Greek thinkers, he says, this God is not far from any one of us. In him, you live and move and have our being. He’s the Father of all and he’s basically been reaching out to all of humanity from the beginning. So, this vision of one God is actually profoundly significant. It is, I would argue — and there’s a lot of intellectual histories that have made this point — it is the roots of our modern idea that every single human person, no matter where they’re from, no matter what race they are, no matter even what religion they are, every one of them is worthy of dignity and value. And this is actually rooted in the idea that there was one Creator and Lover and good God over all. So yeah, that last question, I think this is absolutely essential to recovering a vision of the human worth and dignity of every person. [00:39:00] Anthony: And for me, this is why it’s so important to point to this one God as triune Father, Son, and Spirit. Because if you have a unitarian God in isolation, he would have created out of need. And so, everything does become about neediness. But within the triune nature of God, there was joy, overflowing harmony. There was no need. But out of the overflow of love, creation came to be. And therefore, all created beings, all of our human beings made in his image and likeness, not out of need, but because of desire of relationship, of wholeness. And as you said earlier, for the flourishing of all mankind. It’s so important to see the triuneness of God, the Trinity. [00:39:45] Jared: I think that is absolutely right. And sometimes I say things like this and people will think that this is some sort of revisionary version of God. This is not true at all. You can find arguments like this all throughout the medieval, the idea that if goodness, if generosity is a divine perfection, if it’s part of what made God perfect, then if God was just a monad, then who could God have been generous to without creating? So, what that would mean then is in order to be generous — and remember we said generous was, generosity is part of what makes God perfect — so, in other words, in order to be perfect, in order to be God, he would’ve needed to create, and in that case, God wasn’t creating the world in order to give. He was paradoxically creating the world for himself so he can become perfect, so he can become generous, so he can become the generous God that characterizes perfection. Instead, as you said, if God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if he is perfectly giving within his one essence from all eternity, then this world is, and I love this word, even though it’s a big word, is gratuitous. God didn’t need it for the sake of God. [00:40:54] Anthony: Yes. [00:40:55] Jared: God literally loved it into being out of that fullness and joy within God’s perfect triune perfection. He spilled out into the world. And again, sorry, I know I’m rambling here, but this does transform the way we think about quote unquote conditions, to go back to our earlier view. Because we oftentimes have actually that kind of an implicit pagan view of God that I was talking about before. We think God has saved us or God has promised us salvation. God has done all of these good things for us. And, therefore, he just asks a bit from us in return. He wants us to do some good things, either to pay him back for what he has done or because this is owed in some way because of all of the good things he promises to give to us. But if God is this infinite triune God, that can’t be the case because God doesn’t need anything we have to give. So, anything he asks us to do can ultimately in some deep sense only be for us, not for him. It can only be to give grace upon grace, gift upon gift, to lead us into more humanity and more flourishing and more wholeness, not to take something from us that he was lacking. [00:42:02] Anthony: Yeah, that’s so insightful because, and not to get into another subject, but that really does inform missiology. Like when we participate in mission with God, it’s out of the overflow. It’s the spilling out of his love, not just another box to check, but this is who God is and this is what he does by his Spirit. And, oh, there’s just so much to get into there. Let’s continue on with this thought. When we look at verses 5 and 6, we see that there’s one mediator between God and humanity, and you’re in St. Andrews. So, I think of TF Torrance in his work, the Mediation of Christ. What are the implications of Christ Jesus, the man being the mediator between God and humanity? Is that just high theology or is there something very practical about this? [00:42:50] Jared: Yeah, I think there’s a huge amount that is practical here and there’s so many ways you could get into it. It is high theology. One of my favorite modern theologians is George Hunsinger, and he talks about how the view of the atonement that you have, the view of what you think Jesus needs to do to redeem us is almost inseparably and inevitably connected with who you think Jesus is. So, in theological terms, the atonement and Christology, what you think Jesus does and who you think he is are inseparable. And the bigger job you think Jesus has to do to restore us and to redeem us, the more exalted you need to think about him. And I think that’s exactly what we’re getting here, that Jesus is the one mediator because he alone, as verse 6 says, gives himself as the ransom. And I think that’s a really powerful word. Look, I’m not a biblical scholar. They could get into all the details, but at a basic level it just means a means of release. And that to me gets to the heart of salvation. The reason that we — salvation is a big job and it needs God himself, the one mediator Jesus Christ — is because the most difficult parts of sin are things that we feel powerless before. Again, we can be very judgmental and legalistic and think that if people just wanted to stop sinning, then they could. And I don’t think that’s a very helpful way of thinking. I think we need to be released from something that stands over against us. I don’t know about you, but when I think of my most kind of intractable character flaws, for me to be completely honest, one of them is just people pleasing. I care so much about what people are thinking about me, I think they’re thinking about me much more than they are. And I usually think that they’re thinking much worse thoughts about me than they actually are. And I can just be consumed in thinking about what people think. And can I tell you if I could stop that, I would. I have wanted to be released from that kind of obsession with being worried about what people are thinking about so many times. I think that might sound like a mundane, safe thing to share, but I think most of our biggest struggles in life are things that we feel helpless before. I think of my friends that have gone through AA and one of the foundational tenets is that you need a higher power because you cannot solve this yourself. And that’s what that idea of ransom is about, that we need someone to release us from a power that threatens to hold us captive, and that to some degree makes us helpless, or at least makes us feel helpless. But if I could say one other thing about that idea, then, of the one mediator — what this does mean then is that in, in some profound fundamental sense, our relationship with God is direct. It is in a sense individualistic. It is straight through. There’s no one that needs to stand in the way, that God himself, in the person of Jesus has done what is required to release us from sin. And therefore, by relating to him we have union with God. And yet what that one mediator doesn’t do is it doesn’t eliminate the fact that God still uses means. Paul talks about how Jesus is the one reconciler, and yet he’s given to us the ministry of reconciliation, that other people can be the means, the vehicle, the space at which we encounter the one mediator that is Jesus Christ. And if we had time, I could tell loads of stories about that. But that is what you talked before about mission. Mission is not us going off on our own and through our own ingenuity or smarts or argumentative rigor or whatever it may be, winning people to Christ. It’s maybe being in the right place at the right time, where the one mediator, Jesus uses us as an instrument to show people Jesus. And oftentimes that’s not through our strength, it’s through our weakness. Oftentimes it’s not through our capacity. It’s through our own need for Christ ourself, which allows us to be that vehicle through which other people meet the one mediator that is Jesus. [00:47:15] Anthony: So much could be said there, and I’m grateful for what you did say, because it’s a lot — that we have direct relationship with the Father. Jesus is not so much a middleman as it were. Sometimes I think people can get that idea that he’s protecting us from the Father. That’s not what’s at play here at all, because guess what? The Father’s like Jesus and has always been like Jesus. We didn’t always know it, but now we do because he is the one mediator. Hallelujah. Praise the Lord. Our final pericope of the month is 1 Timothy 6:6-19. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 21 in Ordinary Time, which is September 28. Jared, I would be grateful if you read it. [00:48:02] Jared: Of course. Of course, there is great gain in godliness combined with contentment, 7 for we brought nothing into the world, so that we can take nothing out of it, 8 but if we have food and clothing, we will be content with these. 9 But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains.11 But as for you, man of God, shun all this; pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and for which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep the commandment without spot or blame until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will bring about at the right time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. 16 It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 17 As for those who in the present age are rich, command them not to be haughty or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches but rather on God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, generous, and ready to share, 19 thus storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life that really is life. [00:49:48] Anthony: I’m going to age myself. I went to university back in the nineties and there was a song that had a line, “more money, more money, more problems,” and it became really famous. And yet, here in the West we pursue money, Jared, as with fervor and gusto above everything. We, in the United States, we talk about the almighty dollar. So, what commentary would you give to the church in light of this and what the text declares? [00:50:17] Jared: Yeah, I think we should definitely allow these. Part of what I think is so helpful about being in a church that reads the scripture, part of the helpfulness of the ritual of going through scripture, however you do that, is to be forced as a rich, wealthy person to hear words like this read over you. And by rich and wealthy, I certainly don’t feel rich and wealthy. But I mean that in the kind of global sense and in terms of wealth across time. But again, even here there is a challenge. But I suppose this has been a theme throughout our conversation. I think there’s a way that this challenge comes to us, which is not for our condemnation, but ultimately for our liberation and for our good. I’m really struck by how later on it warns about the uncertainty of riches.  And encourages you to towards another sort of riches. There’s a play on words there, right? [00:51:17] Anthony: Yes. [00:51:17] Jared: Don’t set your hope in the uncertainty of riches, but rather on God who richly provides for us with everything for our enjoyment. This is a point where to go back to where we started this conversation, I think the message, what might seem to be the challenging message of scripture, actually really resonates with our culture. How many of our great works of art, or even silly films, are about the uncertainty of riches, about people who think that once I have everything, once I’ve attained success in my career, once I’ve attained a certain status of wealth, then I will be happy. And they find that it utterly fails them. When, ironically, when I was on my vacation this summer, I was reading a new novel called Perfection. And it was about these digital nomad people that move into a major city and they’re working online and they were seeking the good life. And they and their friends had tried every different way. They tried clubbing for a while, then they tried great food, then they tried great holidays. They were trying all of these different things. And in the end, the story ends with them in this kind of wonderful house seemingly living the simple life they’d been seeking the whole time and yet utterly bereft of meaning and of significance and of the sort of life they’ve really been seeking. And I think this is the message of this passage —not wealth is really great but you need to obey God and so, you shouldn’t live for it, not this lifestyle would be really wonderful but you’re not allowed to have it. Instead, it’s what it’s pointing us towards — a better, a more lasting, a more satisfying form of riches. I love Jesus’s parable of the pearl of great price or the treasure hidden in a field where he says, someone goes and finds in a field this buried treasure. And what it doesn’t say is that this treasure was so important that God made him give up everything else. It says, when he found this treasure, it was so surpassingly attractive, so desirable, so worthwhile that out of joy, he went and sold everything else he had so that he could get this treasure. In other words, he’s pointing us towards a deeper, more satisfying form of riches, not wagging its finger at us, and saying, you are trying too hard to be satisfied. [00:53:37] Anthony: Oh, that’s so well said. I love how you tie that together with where the true riches are and it’s in Christ where everything that is good and beautiful is found. And the New Testament tells us that greed is idolatrous. Yeah. It’s idolatry. And yet so often we hold it up as a virtue. And it’s not that God is withholding for us, he just has the better thing to give to us if we would just receive it. And I think this is what the text is pointing to. [00:54:08] Jared: Absolutely. [00:54:09] Anthony: Yeah. So, what does it look like? This is a big question, and you can go a million different directions, but what does it look like to fight the good fight of faith and to take hold of eternal life? And maybe you can provide some commentary of how we’re doing it well and where you see us falling short as Christians. [00:54:28] Jared: Yeah. I think, maybe to be slightly provocative, verse 7 says we brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out of it. There is a quite brazen appeal here to heavenly mindedness. And in the late 20th century, early 21st century theology and biblical studies, heavenly mindedness got a really bad rap. There was this idea that the problem with Christians is that we’re too focused on eternity. [00:55:00] Anthony: Yes. [00:55:00] Jared: And we’re not focused enough on this world, or the material things or physical things or whatever it may be. And I’m not very sympathetic to that way of thinking. And part of the reason, I almost think the opposite. I think we live in an age that is consumed by the immediate, that is consumed by … sometimes when people would say to me every sermon needs to be practical, I would say I agree with you. But sometimes what I think we mean by practical is this needs to be something I can put into practice on my way home from church today. And I think the most practical things in life don’t work like that. They’re not just little life hacks that you put into practice to change your life. They’re about who you are as a person. They’re about restoring you and making you new. They’re actually more about virtue than just about following a rule. And I think something similar here in our culture right now, as you might know, there is a revival —particularly among young people — of Stoicism, of a philosophy of life which is combating this obsession with immediate gratification, which we all have. And Christianity from the beginning has had a very complicated relationship with Stoicism. When you read these first few verses here about contentment, it’s saying, look, there is something right about that. There’s something right about delaying gratification, about living for something more than immediate gratification, living for a standard or a virtue that goes beyond it. Okay, so there’s a grain of truth to that. And yet Augustine famously mocked the Stoics as well because he said do you really think that someone — because Stoicism says basically, if you have the right attitude on life, then it doesn’t matter what good things you lose, you should still be able to be happy, and Augustine said that was ridiculous — do you really think that if you’ve lost a loved one or lost a friend that you shouldn’t be troubled, that you shouldn’t be profoundly devastated in the face of that loss? And he looked at the person of Jesus as his is motivation here: Jesus, the one person that of all people was most living not for the immediate but for eternity, whose entire life, as Hebrews said, was for the joy that was set before him. In other words, the reason he could go through a life of being rejected and of what seemed like failure and ultimately of death was not because he had given up on joy, but because he was living for an eternal joy where humanity was reunited to God along with him. And yet, even though he had that vision, that ultimately all things will be made new, his joy would be made sight, when he looked at his friend Lazarus who died, even though he was going raise him again, he wept. [00:57:46] Anthony: Yes. [00:57:46] Jared: He fully faced the loss and the tragedy and the sorrow of life. And that’s what that Stoic vision misses — the fact that life can be broken and imperfect and tragic. And yes, we have hope, but is a hope that is oftentimes through tears facing the reality of a broken world. And in terms of your final question then, what does it mean to do that well? What does it mean to, on the one hand, yes, not think that I need to be immediately satisfied, to recognize that sometimes I will have desires that don’t go fulfilled, that sometimes life isn’t what it should be, and therefore it can be tragic and I can lament and I can weep, and yet also to do that with hope, trusting that there is a future joy, that this is not the end, and therefore I’m able to face those tragedies without being totally crushed, but still having in some broken way through tears and through suffering and maybe through therapy, hoping in something more. What does that look like? I think part of what it looks like, and this might be a strange thing to say, is accepting that things aren’t going to be perfect in this world. [00:58:55] Anthony: Yeah. [00:58:56] Jared: Accepting that what it means to be faithful is accepting when other people aren’t perfect, when your family lets you down, when the church isn’t what it should be, when the government isn’t what it should be, and saying, do you know what? This doesn’t make me give up. This doesn’t make me stop trying. This doesn’t make me stop fighting for justice and truth. This doesn’t make me hopeless. It makes me think that I can keep going. I can keep trying to fight for justice. I can keep pressing in relationships. I can keep doing all of that because I’m not expecting it to be perfect. I’m living for the joy that was set before me, which is already secured in the person of Jesus. [00:59:34] Anthony: Yeah. That’s so important what you’re saying there. And I think this gets at why Paul can write a letter like that he did to the church in Philippi while he is sitting in prison. It’s sometimes called the epistle of joy. He’s just gushing with joy in the midst of his dark, dank circumstances because of who Christ is, who has been so rich to provide out of generosity to Paul as it is to us. So, even when, say, we have prayed and prayed that we would be healed of some sort of physical infirmity but it doesn’t happen, we don’t doubt God’s goodness, his faithfulness to us because he’s already proven that once and for all in the person and work of Jesus Christ. And so, I think you’re really getting at something — that this life ain’t perfect. It’s just not. [01:00:25] Jared: No. [01:00:25] Anthony: But it’s good. It’s so good because of you guys. [01:00:30] Jared: I think you’re right, that those moments of loss, of prayers that are not answered — long prayers that are not answered — is where you, that’s where you know whether we’re alive. This doesn’t mean you don’t grieve, it doesn’t mean you’re not incredibly sad. It doesn’t mean you, again, you might not be depressed or anxious or have mental illness. But one of the things I find really comforting, that I do try to encourage people with, is to say, when you say this person isn’t being healed, has God said no? If it’s not too trite to say, God never says no. At worst, he says not yet. The miracles of the gospels, as a lot of biblical commentators have pointed out, when Jesus is going through this small land and he is healing people left and right, all of the illness and pain, it’s almost as if it’s wiping away what was. And we say, why doesn’t Jesus do that now? Why doesn’t he do that for everyone? The answer is, of course, he will. That is a foretaste, a sign, the first fruits of the entire world being restored. Every person that was healed was actually a sign for us, that ultimately all tears will be wiped away. Ultimately, all pain and illness will be eliminated. All things will be restored. And so right now, yes, we lament, but we trust that the answer isn’t no, that the answer at worst is wait. The day is coming when those things will be set right. [01:02:05] Anthony: That’s such good news. And for our listening audience, you may not realize this, but often when I’m interviewing somebody like Jared, I’m meeting them for the first time. During the recording, we’ve, Jared and I, have exchanged emails back and forth to prepare for this, but this is the first time I’ve actually talked to him, as is the case for several of the guests that we’ve had, and I’m so grateful that Andrew Torrance connected us. I really do appreciate you, brother. You’re a researcher, but I hear the pastor-preacher in you, and it’s so exciting to hear you exclaim and explain and herald the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, thank you for joining us. And I really do appreciate the team of people that make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman — just a great team to work with that puts all this together. But I wanted to remind our audience of something. Our friends, the one who’s gone before us, the great Swiss theologian, Karl Barth, said, “Christ accomplishes the reality of our reconciliation with God, not its possibility. It’s done.” And so, as Jared said during the podcast, let’s go be ministers of the gospel. It is such good news and it shouldn’t stay with us. Let’s share it with all that we encounter. May it be so. Jared, thank you for being with us and as is our tradition here on the podcast, we end with a word prayer. We’d be delighted if you said a word of prayer over us. [01:03:27] Jared: Yeah. Thanks so much and thanks for your kind words. Heavenly Father, we just do. We are aware that when we’re talking about these things, it can be very easy to talk about these issues in a podcast, whether it’s issues of racial injustice, issues of loss, of illness. And … speaking in a theoretical, abstract way is totally inadequate before the reality of what people are facing. But we do trust that in Christ you walk with us and enter with us into those injustices and into those tragedies, and you promise that injustice, evil, suffering, pain, none of this has the last word. And so, while we, and certainly my words are inadequate to evaluate those things, we trust that you are not. And in the name of Jesus Christ, your Son, we pray. Amen. [01:04:12] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Rev. Dr. Jared Michelson—Year C Proper 18-21 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 13 Anthony: Our first passage of the month is Colossians 3:1–11. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 13 in Ordinary Time, August 3. So if you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth, 3 for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever in you is earthly: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient. 7 These are the ways you also once followed, when you were living that life. 8 But now you must get rid of all such things: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive language from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have stripped off the old self with its practices 10 and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator. 11 In that renewal there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, enslaved and free, but Christ is all and in all! When we see a statement like Christ is seated at the right hand of God, we can too often think spatially, Ted. But there’s more to it, right? Tell us about it. Ted: Yeah. Well, this passage, like the whole book of Colossians, is about the supremacy of Christ. And to speak of him as being seated is speaking directly to that and using thought forms that the audience that received this to begin with would be very familiar with. I’m reminded that not too long, and not too many days ago, we celebrated Ascension Day, which is part of the liturgical calendar that sadly is often overlooked. But here in Colossians 3, Paul is clearly alluding to that as he refers to Christ seated at the right hand of God, which is indicating a key aspect of the reality of Christ, who Christ is, the eternal son of God, fully God, who via the incarnation, became and remains fully human, God in the flesh who lived, died, suffered, suffered and died and was buried, and on the third day, resurrected and 40 days later, ascended to the throne of God, where, in Paul’s thought form, he remains seated, which is to say exalted. It is not seated, as in oh, let’s take a vacation. It’s talking about his exaltation, the granting to Jesus of all authority, which flies directly in the face of the one who claimed all authority, who was Caesar, that throughout the book of Colossians and elsewhere in his letters Paul pokes at, but Jesus has all this great authority as we’ll see in the book of Hebrews as we proceed. He has that authority as our high priest who is compassionate and yet powerful and united to Christ via his humanity. Our humanity is ascended with him and therefore seated with him. We share in his power and authority. That is a stunning reality with respect to both Christ and humanity, a reality that was fundamental to Paul’s trinitarian, Christ-centered theology and his anthropology. So there, there’s an awful lot right there in this passage that we could go on about, but that’s a little bit of a capsule of what he is talking about when he talks about Christ being seated. Anthony: You mentioned, we are seated with him. Our humanity is, and in that way, we’re active participants of what’s happening to Christ, and Paul goes on to write in this passage that our lives are hidden in Christ. Then he goes on to say that Christ is our life. Those are brief statements, but Ted, it seems to me there’s quite a lot theologically happening in those declarations. Ted: That’s for sure. Anthony: Help us understand. Ted: Well, I’ll ask a question. Does my life perfectly reflect the reality that I’m seeing with Christ in heaven? If I’m honest, I’ve got to say no. I’m not proud of that, but it’s the reality. Do people say about me, “Yeah. I see Ted seated with Jesus on the throne of God.” Yeah, probably not. But Paul, being a realist, knows that this is true of us and yet we don’t see it completely. And he would include himself in that and makes mention of that at times in his letters. He does not see himself as being perfected, but he does see himself seated with Christ in the heavenlies, where we share in his perfection. And so, Paul is encouraging us to realize that truth, as remarkable as it is, as hard to grasp as it is. And he encapsulates that by saying that we are hidden in Christ. We don’t see ourselves, others don’t see us in his fullness, and yet we are in Christ. And by faith, we’re able to grasp that glorious reality of who we truly are in him. And what Paul is telling these Christians in Colossae and us by extension, is that we need to be grounded in that truth and let it define us and lean into that truth and allow it to change our minds and thus also our behavior. And that is the essence of Paul’s trinitarian ethics, that we always acknowledge first who we are. That’s the indicatives. The declaration of the Gospel: it says, this is true, as crazy, as wild, as stunning as that seems. This is true. Focusing on that reality of who Jesus is and who we are in him, and let that reality guide and empower us to attend to the imperatives, the commands he gives here to live like Jesus according to the Spirit, to live the way of the new self, the new creation of who we are, truly are, and are becoming in Christ. And Paul uses that same logic throughout his letters as he’s dealing with problems that he’s seeing in these congregations that he is writing to and how relevant that is in our day too. Anthony: One of the imperatives that you mentioned, if you don’t mind me asking a follow up question? Ted: Sure. Anthony: He said we must get rid of wrath. And yet in verse six we see that the wrath of God is coming. So, is God practicing something he’s not preaching? How … you know, somebody maybe that’s new to scripture and they see, I’m supposed to as a Christian to get rid of wrath in my life, but God has wrath. How do you reconcile those two things, Ted? Ted: I think we have to be careful to not say: I don’t like that term, the wrath of God; so, Paul can’t possibly mean that. Anthony: Yeah. Ted: Paul’s giving a pretty definitive warning, but a warning is different than a proclamation of what is actually going to happen. So there’s that. So, he’s not trying to guilt people into good behavior. He is not trying to scare the hell out of them, so to speak, but he is saying, look, this is a serious matter. But you can’t, you can’t deal with the issue of behavior through coercion, through shaming, through guilt. And so, he’s not intending to do that. And I think one then has to have a broader view of what the wrath of God is. And he doesn’t address that here, but he does elsewhere that God’s wrath is fundamentally expression of the actual nature of God, which is love and all that he does toward us and for us is motivated by his love, is directed by his love, and that includes the times he needs to correct us. And ultimately, God is going to remove from us those things that are contrary to the true reality of who we are in Christ. And so, if you want to term that an expression of his wrath, that’s okay, but you have to understand the context and you have to understand what God’s motivation is and the tactics, so to speak, that he uses. And so, there’s a warning here. It’s like folks we’re talking about stuff that is really serious, and there were a lot of things going on in the church in Colossae that needed to be corrected. But ultimately his emphasis is on the indicatives, not the imperatives. The imperatives always follow behind the indicatives, and that’s really important to know. Anthony: Amen. Amen and amen. And as I heard someone recently say, we can only grow as much as our willingness to be corrected in life and … Ted: How true. Anthony: It is a practical truth. Ted: Yeah, that’s for sure.The post Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 13 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 17 Anthony: Our final passage of the month is Hebrews 13:1–8, 15–16. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 17 in Ordinary Time, August 31. Let mutual affection continue. 2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels without knowing it. 3 Remember those who are in prison, as though you were in prison with them, those who are being tortured, as though you yourselves were being tortured. 4 Let marriage be held in honor by all, and let the marriage bed be kept undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have, for he himself has said, “I will never leave you or forsake you.” 6 So we can say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can anyone do to me?” 7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. “Keep your lives free from the love of money,” verse 5 says, “and be content with what you have.” What might you say about this? A prophetic word, a social commentary. What does the church need to hear about this, Ted? Ted: Don’t get me going. Anthony: Well, I’m inviting you to, actually. Ted: I don’t mean to get on my high horse because this speaks to my heart and is convicting, but I must say that the author of Hebrews … Anthony: Yes. Ted: … is certainly focusing in now on ethical matters. He is getting at the reality of his readers’ everyday life, and what they are thinking, what really motivates them, and therefore what they are doing. And he’s urging them to embrace, and through a Christ-like life, show forth the truth and power of the gospel. You talk about evangelism; you talk about our Christ-like example in the world has a lot to do with how we live. And we don’t do it to impress people. We don’t do it for the favor of people. We do it because that’s the way Christ is, and we’re participating in his life. And one specific behavior that he zeroes in on is living in contentment — free from a love of money is part of that. Money representing material goods, certainly an issue for these folks because following Jesus was often leading to them losing their way to make money. Their businesses were being closed down because of it. Their Jewish neighbors wouldn’t do business with them. And that’s an issue for us today. Did they, do we, love money more than Jesus? It’s a challenge in a world that it becomes increasingly materialistic. Maybe we don’t have the same kinds of problems or temptations that they did in that respect, but we certainly face that challenge today. And we are challenged to ask ourselves, are we generous with what we possess? Do we use our resources in order to offer hospitality to strangers, is the example he gives, which by the way, them being Jews familiar with the Old Testament, with Hebrew scriptures would have thought of those passages in the Hebrew scriptures that talk about the necessity of caring for people who are strangers among us — foreigners, if you will. That’s certainly an issue in our world today, especially in the United States and other fairly wealthy nations. If you don’t mind, I’d like to read something that I ran across from Walter Brueggeman on that very issue. This is from Away, Other Than Our Own devotional for Lent. He said: I believe the crisis in the United States Church has almost nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It has everything to do with giving up on the faith and discipline of our Christian baptism, settling for a common generic US identity that is part patriotism, part consumerism, part violence, and part affluence. That’s not an easy thing for people who are affluent and living in luxury — you and I, both, we live in luxury compared to most people in the world and certainly most people in history. And it’s easy to be seduced by that. And so, we have to look to Jesus, who though he experienced some physical blessings, I suppose you could say, would never grasp for those things. And he always shared what he had, even if it was very little. And we’re challenged to do the same thing, to show that kind of hospitality, to embrace strangers and to live in contentment, not to always be constantly trying to grasp for more. And that is a challenge to us, and, I think, one that that makes me stop and think about it and we should stop and think we should be aware of that. The reason for it is in order for us to share more fully in the way of Jesus and to live a Christ-like life that can be seen by others and therefore help them to see Jesus. And so there we are. He’s ending on a pretty strong note with these folks and it’s a word of correction for sure. Anthony: It is, because if the church looks exactly like the world and its priorities, how can the church bear witness to Christ? How can it be an agent of change in the world? You mentioned Walter Brueggeman. We’re recording this episode in June, and yes, Walter died within the past week and he was an Old Testament scholar, theologian, and a gift to the church. And I just want to commend his book on Prophetic Imagination to our listening audience. It’s a powerful word, and it’s a challenging word. And the church throughout its history has had to be challenged from time to time. And I think what you just said is really an important word for all of us. Ted, we’re on the gun lap coming around to the end here, and I wanted to close with this. The writer of Hebrews says that Jesus will never leave you or forsake you, verse 5. The Lord is my helper, verse 6. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, verse 8. So why don’t we end the episode with a proclamation of that good news of God revealed in Jesus Christ. Ted: Yeah. Both the passage we read in Colossians, and now this in Hebrews — those were written nearly 2000 years ago, are really relevant today. And the reason for that is because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. What that means is he is steady. He can be counted on. He is faithful, always faithful, and that’s great good news for us because Jesus, who is fully God and fully human, is very much alive and is with us and can be counted on at any time in any circumstance, whether that be true in first century Judea or 21st century North America or any continent on the face of this earth. Jesus is the pioneer and perfecter of our faith and can be trusted, trusted to never leave us or forsake us. And so, we may place fully our trust in him. By God’s grace, trusting in Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, we may, we must trust and follow him with reverence, perseverance, gratitude, and courage. Anthony: And there you have it folks. Ted, it’s great to have you back. We’ve worked together in various ministry capacities through the years and we haven’t had a chance to catch up in months. It’s great to chat with you brother about the good news revealed in Jesus and holy scripture. Tec: Likewise. Anthony: This has been really sweet to have you on. And as a final word to our listening audience, I want to remind you, God has torn the temple curtain. Ted: Amen. Anthony: And nothing you can do can mend it. It is done. It is finished. Grace has conquered. Jesus has conquered all. And so, as the writer of Hebrews pointed us to, and Colossians pointed us to, cast off that old life, there’s something better awaiting us. The promise of what is to come, new heaven and new earth, and let us move forward in the power of the Holy Spirit. I want to thank the team of people that helped make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s a joy to work with them. And again, Ted, it was a joy to have you on the podcast, and as is our traditional end, we’d like for you to close us with a word of prayer. Ted: Sure. Let’s pray. Father, as we bring this time and your word to a close. We thank you for the great cloud of witnesses that you have given us. We thank you for your faithfulness to us through your Son and by your Spirit, for the way you have led your people to testify by their lives, and sometimes their deaths, to your goodness and grace. Father, in this life, we often face great difficulties. Help us when we do to not be discouraged or distracted. Help us not to compromise or give up. And Lord Jesus, our high priest, keep our eyes fixed on you. And Holy Spirit, turn our eyes and our hearts toward Jesus. Give us that grace of perseverance. Strengthen our faith. Grant us a compelling vision of the fullness of our salvation that is coming in a new heaven and a new earth, the home for which we long. And now, Father, may you who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead, our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, equip us, equip those who are hearing this, with everything good for doing your will. And Father, may you work in us what is pleasing to you through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. In his name we pray. Amen.The post Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 17 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 15 Anthony: Let’s go on to our next pericope of the month. It’s Hebrews 11:29–12:2. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 15 in Ordinary Time, August 17. By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as if it were dry land, but when the Egyptians attempted to do so they were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had received the spies in peace. 32 And what more should I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, in order to obtain a better resurrection. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned to death; they were sawn in two; they were killed by the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, persecuted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God. Tortured, flogging, stoned to death, sawn in two, killed by the sword — what should we learn about, rejoice in, and soberly consider about our brothers and sisters of old? Ted: Yeah, that’s quite a passage, sometimes called the Hall of Faith, right? A little background here I think would be helpful. It’s important to understand that Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians who were bailing on the church. At least some of them were. They had accepted Jesus as their Messiah. They were Jews who accepted Jesus as the promised Messiah, and because of that, they were ostracized by the Jewish community in which they lived, even their own families. As a result of that, they were targets of persecution. And some in order to avoid persecution, were returning to the Jewish faith. That’s the context here. And so, the author of Hebrews, whoever that was, we’re not sure, writes to them to encourage and exhort them to stay the course, to persevere, to continue following Jesus despite persecution. And in this passage gives examples from their own history of men and women, who did just that, who remained faithful to God despite dangers in their journey, sometimes terrible persecution, sometimes even martyrdom. And all of these, we call them saints, died in the faith awaiting the fullness of what they hoped for, which they had not yet experienced. And that’s the fullness of salvation, which is yet to come, in the coming resurrection. I mentioned that before. That’s the homeland for which we are looking and hoping and focusing on, and that is what helps get us through the difficult times that we often face. To sort of paraphrase Paul, if in this life only we have Christ and we don’t have this hope of the resurrection, we’re of all men most miserable. Now, not a lot of us can say we’re being terribly persecuted for following Christ in this day and age, although I know some folks who in other parts of the world from where I am in the United States are indeed. And that’s part of the experience. And there is a real need to keep this focus on the future. And it’s helpful to have this great cloud of witness that these examples of faithful Christians. Or faithful people of God. Some many of them were pre-Christian, if you will, who remain faithful despite the difficulties they face. And Paul, not Paul, but the author of Hebrews is wanting these people to remain faithful despite what they were going through. Anthony: You mentioned the great cloud of witnesses. Hallelujah. Thank God for them found in 2:1. And what I want to ask you to do, invite you to do, is exegete Hebrews 12:1–2. And Ted, feel free to preach, preacher. Let’s hear. Ted: Yeah, I have gotten into that already, but I mentioned these examples they were to follow, but it’s also important to say to them, and this is what Paul is saying, is that they are to remain faithful to Jesus, and Jesus himself is the epitome of faithfulness. These others point us in that direction, but it’s Jesus himself who is the great faithful one, who is the supreme witness, the pioneer and perfecter, the author says, of faith, of our faith, of the faith that we have been given. How is that true? His own journey, his race consisted of enduring the cross and its shame. And by virtue of that endurance, he crossed the finish line and took his seat at the right hand of the throne of God. He triumphed. And the point is that in our journey, our race, which does require perseverance, sometimes there is suffering, but the message is, “But be encouraged — you do not run alone.” We have a faithful high priest — and he’ll speak about Jesus’ high priesthood later in this book — who has gone through it all before on our behalf, a high priest who understands, who intercedes for us, and perhaps not always delivering us from the trouble, but listen, but always there with us, encouraging, aiding, sometimes crying with us, sharing in our sufferings. So, my friends, be encouraged. Continue to run the race of faith, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. Anthony: What Ted just did there for our friends in the listening audience is the best kind of preaching, I believe, which leaves the congregation talking about Jesus, not the preacher, not even the sermon per se, but the God revealed in Jesus Christ. May it be so in our preaching. Thanks, Ted.The post Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 15 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.