Macro N Cheese

Guest Fadhel Kaboub and host Steve discuss the problems with carbon markets as a solution to climate change, emphasizing the injustice of historic polluters buying carbon credits. They highlight the need for systemic change and a new vision for Africa and the global South, focusing on food sovereignty, energy sovereignty, and industrial policy. They also talk about power dynamics, the role of governments, and the importance of mobilizing for change, recognizing our interconnectedness and the need for a movement of movements.

A head of state whose economic policies promote austerity and fiscal responsibility is:ConservativeProgressiveN/A (not applicable)Daniel Conceição is with us for his third visit to Macro N Cheese. He and Steve discuss the failures of both right and left governments. Some broad strokes of Brazil’s historical patterns are not so different from those in the US. The last left(ish) president, Dilma Rousseff, abandoned her Leninist roots and hopped aboard the privatization train. It wasn’t enough to protect her from impeachment, however.It’s easy to see parallels between Bolsonaro and Trump as well as the lesser evilism we’re facing in both our countries today. Despite President Lula's progressive rhetoric, his economic policies prioritize deficit reduction. His administration is committed to delivering fiscal results to financial markets over public investment in education, healthcare, and other social services.Daniel touches on the “dollarizing” of Argentina's economy and explains that it can only exacerbate instability and conditions of scarcity.Daniel and Steve talk about the insights gained from Modern Monetary Theory and agree that building power beyond elections requires a paradigm shift in our thinking.Daniel Negreiros Conceição did his undergraduate studies in Economics at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil and his postgraduate studies at UMKC (under Professors Wray, Kelton, et al). He is a professor of macroeconomics and public finance at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro. He helped create the Institute for Functional Finance and Development (iffdbrasil.org), where he currently serves as president, and he helps run the Brazilian Modern Money Network (https://mmtbrasil.com/) aimed at producing more easily accessible material for teaching MMT to the wider public.@stopthelunacy on Twitter

Ndongo Samba Sylla, expert on challenges facing Africa and the story of Thomas Sankara, discusses Africa's economic liberation, combining MMT with Sankara's plans. Topics include the role of BRICS, economic exploitation as imperialism, and the urgency for radical action. The podcast explores migration patterns, local materials for sustainable classroom construction, and the agenda for Africa's economic liberation. It also delves into monetary reparations, challenges and opportunities for African countries, and developing progressive policies.

Understanding how monetary sovereign governments create and spend money means looking at the Treasury department and the central bank or, in the US, the Federal Reserve.Economist Eric Tymoigne explains two approaches to understanding the relationship: the consolidated and the collaborative, or cooperative, version of the Treasury and the Fed.The consolidated approach merges the Fed and the Treasury into one entity and analyzes the implications of this merger on public finance. It emphasizes that taxes and government securities don’t fund the government, but rather, the government spends by crediting accounts. (This comes as no surprise to MMTers.)The consolidated approach also highlights the importance of injecting reserves into the economy before taxes can be collected or government securities can be sold. The coordinated approach recognizes the separate roles of the Treasury and the Fed but emphasizes the extensive coordination between the two entities.Eric walks us through these operations and touches on the relationship with private banking and the role of reserves on the international stage.Listening to this episode, you can’t help but conclude that the ways in which the US manages monetary operations are not consistent with budgetary needs. It’s hard to see how it has anything to do with provisioning our society.Eric Tymoigne is an Associate Professor of Economics at Lewis & Clark College, Portland, Oregon, and Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.@tymoignee on Twitter

The podcast explores the relationship between the de-growth movement and Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), highlighting their compatibility. It discusses power dynamics between the state and corporations, wealth inequality, and the erosion of the middle class. The chapter emphasizes the responsibility of understanding MMT and addresses the ongoing work of the speaker at Kyoto University.

“I think within every labor struggle is a kernel of a broader transformation of society. So, it's interesting because Harry Bridges, who was the longtime leader of the longshore workers on the West Coast from the 1930s to the 1960s, when he talked about strike, he said every strike is a mini-revolution.”On the eve of the strike authorization vote by American Airlines flight attendants, Joe Burns spoke with Steve about the labor movement, unions, and class struggle. Joe, a labor lawyer and negotiator, has been a guest on Macro N Cheese twice before. His focus, then and now, is on the importance of class struggle unionism and the need for union leadership that is willing to engage in the broader fight, confronting power at its core.“When you think about it, every labor struggle has inherent in it the struggle over control and power. And who's running society … For that reason, it tends to inherently have this radicalism buried within it. And I think our task as class struggle unionists is to help uncover and further that.”Steve and Joe discuss the role of the corporate media in minimizing and obfuscating issues involving labor and class. They look at the ways in which both monetary and political policy are used to tame workers and reinforce the power of corporations.Joe Burns is a veteran union negotiator and labor lawyer with over 25 years' experience negotiating labor agreements. He is currently the Director of Collective Bargaining for the Association of Flight Attendants, CWA. He graduated from the New York University School of Law. Prior to law school he worked in a public sector hospital and was president of his AFSCME Local. He is the author of Strike Back, Reviving the Strike, and Class Struggle Unionism.@MarchOnTheBoss on Twitter

Activists and organizers know that effective communication depends on connecting with people’s real needs. But we’re often baffled when people don’t act in their own interests or don’t identify others’ interests as intersecting with their own.To grapple with some of these questions, Steve turns to Stephanie Preston, Professor of Psychology at the University of Michigan and author of The Altruistic Urge: Why We’re Driven to Help Others. They delve into in-group versus out-group dynamics and the challenges of creating altruistic urges within different socioeconomic groups.The conversation explores structural solutions to address societal issues, such as universal basic needs and improved access to healthcare. Stephanie argues that eradicating precarity and providing basic survival needs would shift the mindset towards seeing individuals as deserving of support and compassion.Of course, there’s still the question of achieving these solutions. That’s where our activism comes in. For some of us, this episode may raise new questions. How do we level up to meet large scale problems? Does building empathy have a place in political organizing? Does altruism?Stephanie D. Preston is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Michigan. She earned Master’s and PhD degrees in behavioral neuroscience at the University of California at Berkeley, followed by a postdoctoral fellowship in the Department of Neurology at the University of Iowa College of Medicine. She has been a faculty member at U-M since 2005. She uses an interdisciplinary approach to examine how the brain evolved to guide decisions through emotions, in a variety of domains, including to feel empathy, offer altruistic help, support the environment, and to consume and keep material goods. Her book, The Altruistic Urge: Why We Are Driven to Help Others (2022), is published by Columbia University Press.@prestostwit on Twitter

RP Book Club spent four weeks on The Case for a Job Guarantee, by Pavlina R. Tcherneva. Each week featured a different guest expert who led the discussion and answered questions. Listeners to this podcast will recognize their names, including Pavlina herself, Fadhel Kaboub, Ben Wilson, and Rohan Grey. We were also honored to have Bill Black and June Carbone join in.For this episode, Macro N Cheese is releasing the audio recording of all four sessions. Since it is unusually long, the time codes for each segment are included below.[00:03:09 - 01:55:41] Session OneGuest: Fadhel KaboubIntroductionChapter 1, “A Public Option for Good Jobs”Chapter 2, “A Steep Price for a Broken Status Quo”[01:55:41 - 03:17:41] Session TwoGuest: Pavlina TchernevaChapter 3, “The Job Guarantee, a New Social Contract and Macroeconomic Model”Chapter 4, “But How Will You Pay for It?”[03:18:44 - 04:41:57] Session ThreeGuest: Ben WilsonChapter 5, “What, Where, and How: Jobs, Design, and Implementation”[04:41:57 - 06:29:43] Session FourGuest: Rohan GreyChapter 6, “The Job Guarantee, the Green New Deal, and Beyond”Use this link to order a copy of The Case for a Job Guarantee, by Pavlina R. TchernevaDr. Fadhel Kaboub is Under-Secretary-General for Financing for Development of the Organisation of Educational Cooperation (OEC). He is an Associate Professor of Economics (on leave) at Denison University and President of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.@FadhelKaboub on TwitterPavlina R. Tcherneva is an Associate Professor of Economics at Bard College, the Director of OSUN’s Economic Democracy Initiative, and a Research Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute, NY.  She specializes in modern money and public policy. Find her work at pavlina-tcherneva.net@ptcherneva on TwitterBenjamin C. Wilson is an Associate Professor of Economics at the State University of New York at Cortland and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.@autogestion77 on TwitterRohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

“...Because we recognize that taxes are not a funding operation, there's this myth that people who support MMT don't want to use fiscal policy to promote equity. Of course, taxes are redistribution … Things have gotten way out of hand, so taxation is also intended to promote equity, to affect distribution and allocation. Resource allocation.”Mat Forstater was on this podcast four years ago (episode 21!) recounting the history of MMT. He described his early days at Levy Institute and UMKC, his relationship with Warren Mosler and Pavlina Tcherneva, and how they established MMT as interdisciplinary, expanding into law and humanities. If you haven’t listened to that episode, we urge you to check it out.This week, Mat talks to Steve about the role of taxation in the economy and its relation to government spending. It’s not enough to understand how taxes create a demand for the nation’s currency and give it value. Mat always reminds us to consider the total impact of any policy — from using taxation to encourage or discourage behavior, to its ripple effects and unintended consequences.They touch on the importance of decoupling taxation from federal programs and the need to design tax policies that consider the indirect effects on society. They also talk about the potential deflationary impact of programs like Medicare for All, and whether a job guarantee can address unemployment and provide quality jobs.Dr. Mathew Forstater is a professor in Economics at the University of Missouri/Kansas City and the Research Director of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. having received a Ph.D. at The New School for Social Research. His research focuses on the History of Economic Thought, Economic Methodology, Political Economy, Public Policy, Economics of Discrimination, Environmental Economics, African and African American Economic History. @mattybram on Twitter

The title of this week’s episode is taken from an article to be published in September’s Monthly Review. The author, Jason Hickel, talks to Steve about the topic in his third visit to the podcast.Before we look at the double objective of ecosocialism we must analyze the double crisis we’re facing – ecological and social. Both are caused by the same underlying issue: the capitalist mode of production.Capitalism creates an almost perfect circuit that begins and ends with commodification and enclosure. Well, actually, it ends with massive profits... and that double crisis we mentioned. With essential goods and services outside our control, we have no bargaining power when it comes to the cost of living. We are helpless in the face of artificial scarcity and price-gouging. Faced with the high price of necessities we are forced to work longer and harder in order to simply survive. And of course, the more we need to work, the less control we have over our wages. The capitalist class makes out at both ends.There are at least two undeniable problems with this system. It wreaks havoc on the environment and is inconsistent with democracy, if you care about that sort of thing.“This is where our analysis has to ultimately lead, and the underlying pathology is basically that capitalism is fundamentally not democratic.”Even those of us who live in the US, Europe, or other countries with nominally democratic electoral systems have no illusions about their undemocratic nature.“More importantly, when it comes to the system of production, which all of us are engaged in every day, on which our livelihoods and our existence depends, not even the shallowest illusion of democracy is allowed to enter.”After identifying the quagmire, Jason and Steve talk about a solution. Jason lays out the necessary policies that ecosocialism should provide: universal public services, a public works program, and the job guarantee. Jason even suggests the possibility of post-capitalist firms and post-capitalist markets, and describes how they might operate in such a system.We can’t have a Jason Hickel episode without a discussion of degrowth and whether that concept applies to the exploitation of the Global South. Nor is there a means of achieving our goals without domestic and international class solidarity.“We can't underestimate the scale of the struggle that is really involved here. I think we have to take inspiration from successful social movements that have occurred in the past. There's this amazing line from Thomas Sankara, the revolutionary leader of Burkina Faso that goes 'we are the heirs of the world's revolutions'.Pretty much every good thing that we have is the result of revolutionary forces that fought to bring that to be. Everything from literally the minimum wage, as pitiful as it is, to the weekends, to whatever admittedly meager forms of democracy we get to exercise. These are all the benefits of revolutionary movements that have at least won some concessions in the past, and in some cases against extraordinary odds.”Dr. Jason Hickel is an economic anthropologist, author, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. He is Professor at the Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, Visiting Senior Fellow at the International Inequalities Institute at the London School of Economics, and Chair Professor of Global Justice and the Environment at the University of Oslo. Health.Jason's research focuses on global political economy, inequality, and ecological economics, which are the subjects of his two most recent books: The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions (Penguin, 2017), and Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World (Penguin, 2020), which was listed by the Financial Times and New Scientist as a book of the year.@jasonhickel on Twitter