Macro N Cheese

**Reminder** Each episode of Macro N Cheese is accompanied by a transcript and an “Extras” page with links to related material and resources. To access, go to realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast.In one sentence: the winners and losers of the 21st century are the countries that attract young people.Parag Khanna is a leading global strategy advisor and best-selling author of numerous books on globalization, migration, the info-state, and the future of the world order. In this episode, he speaks with Steve about his newest book, Move: The Forces Uprooting Us.Most people who pretend to understand globalization reduce it to the rate of world trade growth. Khanna says we need a broader and more nuanced view, even though there are aspects that cannot be quantified. In his work he takes a multi-dimensional and systemic approach.An earlier book, Connectography: Mapping the Future of Global Civilization, was about the functional geography of infrastructure and supply chains. Its “punchline” is that connectivity is destiny. The recent book, Move, looks at how these ever-greater volumes of infrastructure affect the evolving distribution of population across the world.Human geography, Khanna explains, answers the questions: Who are we? Where are we? What are we? It is not simply a matter of the number of people inhabiting the planet, but what is our demographic composition - the distribution of age and race?Most people agree both climate change and economics are global in nature. They know the price of goods in one country can be affected by various phenomena in other parts of the world. Likewise, the impact of climate change is dramatically different from region to region.Because climate change is so much more extreme and occurring at a much faster pace than we previously acknowledged, it means that adaptation is as important as mitigation. This is a huge theme in the book and, quite frankly, an open door, a big hole that I'm trying to drive a truck through because I'm beside myself with rage.For all our concern about climate change, the focus is skewed. According to Khanna, only 6% of climate-related funding goes to adaptation.Meanwhile, people are dying every single day. You got your rising sea levels in Bangladesh and people dying in floods and heat waves, droughts and cyclones -- all these climate related phenomena. Every single day hundreds, if not thousands, of people are dying. The number of climate refugees in the world is greater than any other category of refugees. Climate migration will soon exceed all other drivers of migration, and yet we don't have a collective discourse on adaptation.Khanna describes the US as “second world,” by which he means it is both first and third world at the same time. He finds lessons in the history of the rise and fall of past civilizations. Societies collapse when their brittleness is exposed by their vulnerability to complex supply chains and structures they haven't fully grasped or untangled.Parag Khanna is a leading global strategy advisor, world traveler, and best-selling author. He is Founder & Managing Partner of FutureMap, a data and scenario based strategic advisory firm. Parag's newest book is MOVE: The Forces Uprooting Us (2021), which was preceded by The Future is Asian: Commerce, Conflict & Culture in the 21st Century (2019). He is author of a trilogy of books on the future of world order beginning with The Second World: Empires and Influence in the New Global Order (2008), followed by How to Run the World: Charting a Course to the Next Renaissance (2011), and concluding with Connectography: Mapping the Future of Global Civilization (2016). He is also the author of Technocracy in America: Rise of the Info-State (2017) and co-author of Hybrid Reality: Thriving in the Emerging Human-Technology Civilization (2012).Paragkhanna.com@paragkhanna on Twitter@drparagkhanna on Instagram

Dirk Ehnts, an economist from Berlin, joins us to talk about his book, Modern Monetary Theory and European Macroeconomics. In addition to discussing the current situation in the Eurozone, he helps us understand the similarities and differences between the Eurozone and the US, especially regarding the relationship between the individual states and the central bank.So in the US, whatever happens in your state ... you always have government spending coming from the federal level. So that's going to pay for the military installation, that's going to pay for the pensions. It's going to pay for some of the public federal infrastructure. And that means that whatever happens in your state, the federal government is always there. And you also have these institutional mechanisms to ensure that states which do not have a lot of employment can somehow make bargains in the political process and basically trade votes for jobs. And that's the main difference.The Eurozone has both the European Central Bank (ECB) and national central banks for each EU nation.We have this problem, that there's going to be a lack of government spending when it really matters. And there's no institution to address this kind of shortcoming. So the Euro was always incomplete, and it was kind of the idea that once it is in place, it can be completed by having a Euro Treasury. But we've been in this kind of mess now since the global financial crisis, and it's not clear where we are going.Ehnts also addresses the question of how countries within the EU make fiscal policy and get programs funded. He talks about causes of the disparity between northern and southern European nations and Steve brings up the race to the bottom we see among US states. Not only are there differences in the political economic strengths of individual EU countries, but within each there are states or provinces with their own strengths and weaknesses.The episode covers austerity policies, the changes from pre- to post-GFC eras, and economic effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. There’s enough about money creation, interest rates, and bond sales to satisfy the wonkiest among us.Don’t forget to check out the episode transcript and Extras pages! If you’re listening on a podcast platform, you’ll have to head over to realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast to find them.Dirk Ehnts is an Adjunct Lecturer at Magdeburg-Stendal University of Applied Sciences, the Speaker of the Board of the Pufendorf Society for Political Economy and author of Modern Monetary Theory and European Macroeconomics.@DEhnts on TwitterWebsite (in German or English): dirk-ehnts.de

Somber headlines recall the 2008 financial crisis: “Global financial markets have been on high alert,” warns the BBC. “Chinese property giant Evergrande is on the brink of collapse, and analysts warn the potential fallout could have far-reaching implications that spill outside China’s borders,” says CNBC. From the New York Times: “Every once in a while a company grows so big and messy that governments fear what would happen to the broader economy if it were to fail.”To navigate this story, we needed someone immune to hysteria, so Steve invited the infinitely sensible Robert Hockett to guide us through the Evergrande saga.Hockett begins the episode with a brief history of China’s strategy for economic development. Unsurprisingly, it looks a lot like that of the US, Germany, and Japan, in different eras. The so-called export-led growth strategy involves developing industries that can achieve a sizable share of the global market for manufactured goods, starting at the low end and proceeding up the ladder to higher end products. Current account surpluses are plowed back into domestic investment, creating a virtuous circle and growing productive capacity.Throughout the history of capitalism, developed nations have been willing to tolerate current account deficits of developing economies for a number of reasons. During the post-WWII cold war years, the US was in competition with the Soviet Union for influence with Germany and Japan, for example. Sometimes, it’s simply to help create good trading partners. The US was pleased to see China join the WTO in 2000.And even before that, the US was willing to endure or experience sustained current account deficits vis a vis China on the theory that China developing more rapidly in consequence of that strategy would ultimately give it a stake in the global neoliberal order that it would become a team player…But as tends to happen over time, after a while, the countries that are footing the bill as it were, or in this case, the US, which was footing the bill in the form of rapidly hollowing out industrial base and even more rapidly eroding labor standards and workplace standards all in the name of global competition or competitiveness. Eventually the US began to object.When the pressure mounted, the Chinese government turned toward investment in domestically generated demand. They looked at the commercial and residential real estate bonanzas that drove American growth during the Reagan and Clinton years, respectively. These investments are substantially debt fueled. Ergo, Evergrande.As for predictions of imminent financial meltdown, Hockett remains sanguine. If a bailout is required, the Chinese government has the capacity to do so without the kind of constraints, real or fictional, that prevent the US government from acting in the interests of the majority. China is not afraid to attach strings to bailouts, including, if necessary, seizing control of a private company.Grumbine takes a detour to ask about infrastructure. Given the deteriorating state of infrastructure in the US, it’s remarkable to see the massive amount of government spending in China, some of which may appear baffling to people in the West. They have literally built bridges to nowhere and uninhabited ghost cities, but there is logic behind it. It is a way to both spend money into the economy as well as prepare for the eventual migration of people from the countryside. Rather than tent cities and Hoovervilles, they will have housing, roads and utilities.One conclusion we might draw from this episode is that sovereign states’ differing approaches to spending their fiat currency can have vastly different outcomes.Robert Hockett is the Edward Cornell Professor of Law at Cornell Law School, Adjunct Professor of Finance at Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business, and Senior Counsel at Westwood Capital, LLC.@rch371 on Twitter

This week Steve investigates the cutthroat world of local school board elections. So, get ready to get down and dirty... Just kidding! His guest, Rana Odeh, is the genuine article: thoughtful, straight forward, and unafraid to bring up uncomfortable topics. At a time when the country’s political polarization seeps into every crevice of civic and social life, our school boards have become battlegrounds. Rana is willing to armor up and fight for our youth and their education.  Rana is running for a seat on the school board in Granville, OH, where she lives with her three kids and her husband, Fadhel Kaboub – a dear friend of this podcast. Anyone who follows Fadhel on Facebook has seen their beautiful family of fledgling artists, musicians, and young campaigners. Steve and Rana talk about the lack of a federal right to education in the US and the need for proper (federal) funding, decoupled from the local tax base. They talk about the mask mandate wars now being waged in schools across the country, serving as proxy for the deeper political divide. They talk about Islamophobia. The recent hysteria over Critical Race Theory is absurd because, as Rana points out, CRT isn’t even taught in K through 12.  It’s a law school term. Racism itself, however, is alive and well in every part of our society. Instead of helping students understand the history of racism in this country, the focus is on No Child Left Behind with its emphasis on testing and memorization. Students are memorizing things, but not learning how to write very well. And other life skills. I'm thinking about how to get along in society, and the discussion on racism is a big part of that. How can you go out into the workforce in 2021 or later and not have a basic understanding of racism and current affairs... Rana’s emphasis is on the whole child, preparing them for problem solving in the real world. In a recent candidate forum, she said: It's about learning for life and equipping students with the skills they need to be collaborative, critical thinkers - empathetic, adaptable, responsible, and resilient. If any of our listeners are in Rana’s district, we urge you to support her campaign and vote.  For everyone else, perhaps listening to her will spark your imagination for ways to engage in your own community. Rana Odeh is a mother of three boys, a potter, and a public speaker. She and her husband Fadhel have enjoyed being active members of the Granville community for the past 12 years. Rana currently serves on the Granville Township Land Management Committee and has served on the board of the Granville Parent Cooperative Preschool. She has previously worked as a freelance writer and editor, and was a debate forum columnist for the Dayton City Paper. Rana has a Bachelor's degree in English, and a Master's degree in International and Comparative Politics. ranaforgranvilleschools.com Follow her on Facebook: Rana Odeh for Granville School Board

In 2014, Nevada cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and his supporters engaged in armed confrontation with law enforcement. Bundy had been embroiled in a 21-year legal dispute with the US Bureau of Land Management. The “Bundy Standoff” was splashed across the news, allowing the public to watch as Cliven Bundy became a hero – a symbol of conservative America under attack by the federal government.This week, Jamie Skillen talks with Steve Grumbine about the history and politics of federal lands. Skillen’s book, This Land is My Land, traces three periods of rebellion against federal land authority over the past forty years. The issue wasn’t originally defined by the so-called left/right divide. Prior to the Sagebrush Rebellion (1979-1982) these were regional actions waged by people who shared a common material interest in federal lands, regardless of political identification. Since 1979, however, federal land issues have become flashpoints in conservative politics.In a nation that prizes private ownership and individualism, isn’t it ironic that the federal government owns 28% of the surface land? Conservatives demand these lands be ceded to the states, but were that to happen, the states would have to bear the cost of maintaining them. Politicians rail against public lands, pledging to eliminate them, while fully aware of their constituents’ love of national forests and parks.When the federal government encouraged expansion beyond the original thirteen colonies, European Americans settled wherever there was arable land, across the Midwest and Great Plains and, eventually, on the West coast. The topography of the intermountain region was less hospitable to agriculture. When, in the late 19th century, the US government began creating national forests and parks, the lands available to it were largely those that nobody wanted at the time.Historically, the federal government manages the development of oil, gas, coal, and timber, as well as ranges for livestock grazing. Generally, about half of the revenues from these ventures are given to the counties where they’re located. Any new federal regulations, restricting timber harvesting, for example, directly affect jobs and slice into funding mechanisms for those counties. (As MMTers, we know that states and counties are currency users, not currency issuers.)Skillen sees the public lands issue as a microcosm of our national politics, replete with all the contradictions and hypocrisy therein. While Western states and conservative political leaders have become increasingly radical and vitriolic about federal ownership …... I never hear a parallel complaint against the market economy, against corporations. There is built into our culture this idea that what government does is a choice, and we can question those choices. We can make different choices. Whereas what the markets do is like nature; it’s like evolution.Note to the Macro N Cheese audience: on our website, realprogressives.org, you’ll find past podcast episodes with transcripts and extras. Please consider supporting Real Progressives by becoming a monthly donor at patreon.com/realprogressives.James R Skillen is an Associate Professor of Environmental Studies at Calvin University and director of the Calvin University Ecosystem Preserve and Native Gardens. He is an expert on public land management and politics, including the impacts of anti-government extremism in public land politics and author of This Land is My Land: Rebellion in the West.https://www.jamesrskillen.com/@JamesskillenR on Twitter

This week Steve welcomes Scott Fullwiler for the first time in two years. Scott is a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity and associate professor of economics at UMKC, where he teaches the macroeconomics PhD program. As listeners of this podcast know, UMKC is one of the two academic birthplaces of MMT.The episode begins with a look at social security and FICA taxes. Originally, the idea behind FICA was for people to feel like they’re paying into their own retirement. The expectation is that SS will be politically protected as a result. Scott points out that this is an unnecessary narrative and compares it to national defense. “It's not as if the reason why we continue to get national defense spending is because somebody feels like they've paid into it and they’re owed it.”There are three different separate things we need to remember when it comes to Social Security and Medicare, and unfortunately, all three of them get blended together in our public discourse … And those three narratives are the financial ability to pay for Social Security, the legal authority to pay for Social Security, and the productive capacity to have a future in which both retirees and workers can sustain the standard of living that's improving.Scott says FICA reduces production capacity. Not only does it pull money out of the economy, it’s a regressive tax, with a vast amount not coming from the “one percent” but from the majority of workers between 16 to 67, who are far from wealthy.The episode covers the debt ceiling in terms of both political and operational realities. Scott calls it “one of those tragically hilarious things that we do,” enabling a “savvy minority party to take a pound of flesh out of the majority party.”He also describes the workings of both the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department as well as the possibility of minting trillion dollar coins.Scott Fullwiler is a Research Scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity and Associate Professor of economics at the University of Missouri – Kansas City.www.global-isp.org/scott-fullwiler/

This week we’re checking in with a couple of candidates from The New Liberals (TNL) of Australia. We’ll be learning about the traditional Australian political parties and getting an overview of how their electoral system works.Steve Keen is an old friend of this podcast. In the past he’s joined us to talk about everything from climate change to Marx to the breakdown of supply chains during the COVID pandemic. Now we’re meeting him as a political candidate; soon Professor Keen will be Senator Keen. Victor Kline, the leader and one of the founders of TNL, is running for a seat in the House of Representatives.TNL is only two years old but has already gained wide support. Unlike the US, where third parties have been almost entirely shut out of national elections, Australia’s preferential voting system and parliamentary style of government have made it possible for TNL to gain traction.Voting is mandatory in Australia, which Keen explains is far superior to the farce called democracy in the US:I see it as a way of making sure the politicians can't ignore you because they can't just hope to suppress different groups and stop them registering because it's against the law not to register and not to vote. So therefore the politicians can't ignore you. And I say this is a law controlling the politicians rather than the voters.With an existential climate crisis bearing down on us and Australia just as eager to adopt the neoliberal agenda as western Europe and the US, Steve Grumbine asks how they’re breaking through the narrative of false scarcity. It’s not so difficult, says Kline:Well, funny thing is that most people intuitively understand MMT or Keynesianism. If you say to them, look, we've got 3 million people below the poverty line in Australia. We want to put them back to work, and every dollar we spend putting somebody back to work gets spent and re-spent across the economy and stimulates small and large business alike … Now, most people get that, they don't see that as strange. You tell them that a sovereign government can invest in what it wants to invest in. They get that. Like the US, Australian politics are presided over by a duopoly of neoclassical parties - an “alternative autocracy.” The Liberal Party of Australia and the Australian Labor Party are almost indistinguishable in their fealty to the neoliberal agenda, both “reporting to Rupert Murdoch and the fossil fuel industry.” However, unlike the performative opposition of American Democrats and Republicans, the two Australian parties tend to vote the same way. Imagine what kind of policy gets 100% “yes” votes.Whether or not it’s possible to fix the mess we’re in through electoral politics, political campaigns allow for a dialog with the public, as Bernie Sanders demonstrated in the US. We’ll be watching and cheering on our friends down under.Victor Kline is a Sydney barrister specializing in refugee law. He is the Founder and Director of the Refugee Law Project which offers pro bono legal advice and representation to asylum seekers and refugees. He is the Leader of TNL (The New Liberals) and one of its founders. TNL will be contesting the next Australian federal elections running candidates in both the House of Representatives and the Senate. Victor will be contesting the House of Representatives seat of North Sydney in New South Wales.Steve Keen is a Distinguished Research Fellow at UCL and the author of “Debunking Economics,” “Can We Avoid Another Financial Crisis?” and his latest “The New Economics: A Manifesto.” He is one of the few economists to anticipate the Global Financial Crisis of 2008, for which he received a Revere Award from the Real World Economics Review. His main research interests are developing the complex systems approach to macroeconomics, and the economics of climate change. Professor Keen is the lead Senate candidate under The New Liberals.On Twitter:@victorklineTNL@ProfSteveKeen

Our friend John Harvey is back to answer a question that’s usually accompanied by much wailing and gnashing of teeth: “what happens if people lose faith in the dollar?” The question contains all sorts of assumptions and intentions, which the Cowboy Economist proceeds to dismember, dispelling all sorts of myths – from inflation to the Fed. (He even tells us why China will continue holding US dollars, in case you’re worried.)One approach taken by the “faith in the dollar” Cassandras is that government is bad, therefore non-governmental currency (Bitcoin!) is better... because the free market is more efficient. However, to say efficiency is good means accepting all sorts of negative social conditions and behaviors, including racism.John talks about economic models and their need to mirror real world behavior....you go back to Milton Friedman's philosophy of positivism. And this is how you do economic research. The idea was that it doesn't matter how unrealistic the assumptions of a model are, as long as they predict well. "Indeed," Friedman goes on to say, "often the most significant models are those with the most unrealistic assumptions."Try telling a physicist that the most significant theories we put forward in physics have the most unrealistic assumptions.If it's no longer necessary for me to justify my model assumptions based on real world phenomena, then what is this really allowing me to do? Well, it's allowing me to preconceive my conclusion. I hate the government. So I've got my conclusion already and now I make up premises that will allow me to get there.John not only dispels the notion that creating currency causes inflation, he also maintains that all inflation is not created equal. Are rising prices a bad thing if wages are increasing even more? If more people are employed?Steve and John discuss the difference between the financial markets gambling on currencies and the real economy, where people buy and sell and pay taxes.It all boils down to there not being a clear understanding. Okay, what creates the ultimate value for the dollar? The fact that on April 15, that's the only thing the US government accepts. And faith is irrelevant in that case.The episode revisits some of the basic insights of MMT. Around here, we can never get too much of that. Money isn’t just dropped into the economy; it’s created when the government spends it into existence. It’s spent on labor, production, real resources, commodities, war... it isn’t dropped from helicopters.John Harvey speaks in a language anyone can understand, which makes this interview so valuable to us non-economists. It’s packed with answers to the questions and arguments we constantly encounter. Be sure to bookmark it, because you’ll want to refer to it again. And don’t forget – each episode of Macro N Cheese is accompanied by a transcript, making it easily accessible.John T. Harvey is a Professor of Economics at Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Texas, where he has been on the faculty for over thirty years. His main areas of research interest are exchange rates and business cycles and his teaching responsibilities include Intermediate Macroeconomics, International Monetary Economics, and Contending Perspectives in Economics. He has published over forty refereed articles, two edited volumes, and two books. John has a YouTube series called The Cowboy Economist and a blog at Forbes.com.@John_T_Harvey on Twittercowboyeconomist.com

Modern Monetary Theory Has a New Friend in Congress said the headline of a New York Times op-ed earlier this month. That friend is House Budget Committee chair John Yarmuth, the 8th term congressman from KY.Isn’t it ironic that it’s newsworthy when the chair of the House Budget Committee understands the basic truth about the workings of the US dollar? That it was a bold move for Yarmuth to appear on C-Span and explain how federal financing differs from our household budgets? This is the world we live in, so we take our MMT victories where we can get them.This week, John and his journalist son, Aaron, talk with Steve about Stephanie Kelton’s The Deficit Myth and how it opened their eyes to the contradictions and absurdities of conventional thinking about our government’s economic policies and the national debt. Instead of asking themselves what the US can afford to do, Congress can now ask what the American people need them to do.John describes his second term on the budget committee, when the chairman, Paul Ryan, warned of financial Armageddon if they didn’t rein in the growing national debt. As we know, the debt kept increasing and Ryan’s dire predictions weren’t borne out. That’s when John figured we should start thinking about it differently. Thanks to Aaron, he heard about MMT and began learning about it.Abraham Lincoln said the legitimate role of government is to do for the people what they need but cannot do so well for themselves.And that certainly relates to spending probably more directly than anything else we do because we are the ultimate banker. We are the ultimate provider and creator of resources. And anybody who's looked at state and local government knows they're not in that same position. And certainly households and businesses aren't.As grandpa and dad to 2-year old JD, both John and Aaron recognize the true responsibility we all carry. In budget committee hearings, John listens to politicians wail about the burden we’re placing on future generations. He does not fall for it:Wait a minute. We've been accumulating debt in this country for 230 years. Has anybody ever been asked to pay it back? Of course not ... I'm sure when the national debt reached a billion dollars under Abraham Lincoln, people were saying the same thing: that all future generations are going to have this burden.Right now, future generations are going to have a burden of an uninhabitable world because of climate change. Our students are going to be studying in 100 year old schools, and we'll have a workforce to be inadequately educated and trained for the jobs of the future. That's the big burden we're putting potentially on future generations if we don't act now and do what we need to do and can do.Steve talks with the Yarmuths about the MMT “layer cake” concept, which ties the Green New Deal to a federal job guarantee and Medicare for all. While the logic is irrefutable, political reality can get in the way. In John’s experience, the Green New Deal is a lot for the American public to grasp. “If you have to explain everything the way you just did, you've already kind of lost…” This just tells us at Macro N Cheese that we have to keep spreading the word. Knowing that there are people at the highest level of government who have caught on to - and are enthusiastic about - MMT, might give us cause for optimism.Congressman John Yarmuth represents Kentucky's Third Congressional District in the U.S. House of Representatives. Now in his eighth term, he has served as Chairman of the House Budget Committee since 2019, and also serves on the Committee on Education and Labor.Aaron Yarmuth is a journalist. Until recently he was the executive editor of LEO Weekly in Louisville. He is currently serving on the board of directors of the Snowy Owl Foundation and the Kentucky Golf Association.Follow John @RepJohnYarmuthFollow Aaron @yarmuthnytimes.com/2021/09/01/opinion/mmt-john-yarmuth.html

MMT, at its most fundamental, shows us the difference between a currency user and the currency issuer. This reality affects policy decisions in ways it would be foolish to ignore. As Fadhel Kaboub and Bill Black explained here recently, even if it were possible to create some inadequate public programs at the state level, they will stall the progressive agenda.Malcolm Reavell of Modern Money Scotland talks to Steve about the parallel situation he and his compatriots are facing. Scotland’s annual budget is determined and controlled by Westminster, the Parliament of the UK.Every year they get a block grant from Westminster according to certain calculations, and that block grant is supposed to provide enough money for the Scottish government to do whatever it has to do. It's a totally artificial constraint, and it is used to prove that Scotland can't manage its own finances and it's too poor.The Scottish government is criticized for not taking sufficient action to combat climate change, for not properly supporting the health service, and for the schools being underfunded. Of course, just like in the states, any money spent on one of these programs reduces the available funds for the others.Malcolm and Steve share their histories as MMT activists trying to contribute to a new movement. They both relied heavily on familiar experts like Mitchell, Mosler, Hail, and many, many others. Some, like Steve Keen and Mark Blyth, they see as adjacent or “broad MMT.”Modern Money Scotland and Real Progressives have a common origin story as Facebook groups. We often hear the charge that MMT is US-centric, so it’s a pleasure to have guests from other parts of the world to compare and contrast our mutual journeys as well as differing political and social conditions. For example, Brexit disrupted the trucking industry in Scotland well before COVID disrupted supply chains for the rest of us.Whether you call it football or soccer, our listeners will recognize Malcolm’s approach to talking MMT to the uninitiated.Well, just imagine this. If all the goals ever scored had to be paid back, who would you pay them back to? ... Supposing they had a ledger. Every time a football team had a goal scored against them, there was a debit marked against them.Then if you ended up with a net balance, you had more goals scored against you than you've scored, how would you settle that account?For more information about Modern Money Scotland and the Scottish National Party, listen to our episode 105, The Case for Scottish Independence with Karin Van Sweeden.Malcolm Reavell is a co-founder of Modern Money Scotland. According to his Twitter bio, he is an “Ex-Aircraft engineer, retired IT guy, internationally renowned composer, now decomposing, still #MMT though.”modernmoney.scot@malcolm_reavell@ModernMoneyScot