Macro N Cheese

Dr. Fadhel Kaboub was recently appointed Under-Secretary-General for Financing for Development of the Organisation of Educational Cooperation (OEC), an international intergovernmental organisation founded by countries from across the Global South. In honor of Fadhel’s new position, we’re releasing Steve’s very first interview with him from back in the day when we live streamed onto Facebook. Steve thinks his questions are very different today — more disciplined. Some of us can’t get over how young he sounded. It was only five years ago!Fadhel and Steve discuss the spectrum of monetary sovereignty from full sovereignty to completely non-sovereign. Fadhel explains the structural debt traps developing nations find themselves in. They have deficits related to lack of sufficient food or energy production, forcing them to rely on imports.“Those are things that, no matter what you do as a central bank, you're not going to eliminate those structural issues unless as a country you start investing in renewable energy so that you don't have to import fossil fuels anymore or you invest in a sustainable agricultural policy to let you have food self-sufficiency.”The hole in their trade deficit leads to depreciation of their exchange rate.“And then the next morning or the next month when you as a country try to import food or fuel, you're going to import it at a higher price. So you'd be importing inflation into your domestic economy ... The inflation is related to a weakness of the productive capacity of the domestic system plus the imported inflation that happens because of the depreciation of the exchange rate.”Fadhel and Steve also discuss the devastating effects of unemployment and the potential of a Job Guarantee Program for developing countries.Dr. Fadhel Kaboub is Under-Secretary-General for Financing for Development of the Organisation of Educational Cooperation (OEC). He is an Associate Professor of Economics (on leave) at Denison University and President of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

Historian Harvey J. Kaye joins Steve to talk about the complicated legacy of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Kaye acknowledges many points in our criticism of FDR but goes on to discuss what Roosevelt was up against, and why he should be respected.“Because Gramsci, I think it was, said, when you judge the past, don't forget, you too shall be judged. I'm paraphrasing … When socialists start winning elections, then they can start telling me about how inadequate FDR was.”Them’s fighting words! But speaking of socialists – or rather, social democrats – and elections, the episode also includes discussion of Bernie Sanders’ presidential campaigns, and the lessons Bernie could have taken from FDR. After all, they both faced serious opposition within the Democratic Party.At a time when the American capitalist class were enamored of Mussolini, Harvey lays out FDR’s achievements and maintains that those policies prevented a revolution. Listen to the episode and see whether you agree.Harvey J. Kaye is a Professor Emeritus of Democracy and Justice at the University of Wisconsin, Green Bay, and an award-winning writer who has authored and edited 18 books, including Thomas Paine and The Promise of America, Take Hold of Our History, FDR on Democracy, The Fight for the Four Freedoms, and The British Marxist Historians.@harveyjkaye on Twitter

Recent episodes of this podcast have looked at the many ways in which the US attempts to maintain global hegemony through the deep state, the banking system, NATO, and the unholy trinity of the IMF, WTO, and World Bank.This week, Steve talks with Daniel Conceição about the possibility of a supranational currency for Brazil and Argentina. Daniel points out some potential benefits, but it’s hard to avoid comparisons to the Eurozone and the crippling loss of monetary sovereignty. Nevertheless , if successful, such an agreement has far-reaching implications not only for these two nations but potentially throughout all of Latin America, helping promote greater economic integration while providing increased stability.Steve and Daniel revisit the issue of the petrodollar. Traditional MMT wisdom would say it’s no big deal; it’s merely a numeraire. Daniel suggests there’s more to it, “because when we claim that taxes are the main driver of currency acceptability, what we really mean is that necessity is the main driver.” Just as taxes put us in need of the currency,“...in the exact same way, if there's a commodity that is hugely needed for your economy to function—everyone needs to purchase it—and if that commodity is only purchasable in a particular currency, then it also necessarily will give acceptability to that currency.”The episode considers the accuracy of books such as ‘’Confessions of an Economic Hitman.” Daniel points out that mainstream economics is a tool to preserve the interests of the ruling class both domestically and internationally. It’s a mistake to think the economic hitmen are working to secure American interests. Just as we’ve heard from Aaron Good, Michael Hudson, Clara Mattei, and other guests, it’s not a case of country against country, but of a ruling class working against the interests of everyone else.Daniel Negreiros Conceição did his undergraduate studies in Economics at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil and his postgraduate studies at UMKC (under Professors Wray, Kelton, et al). He is a professor of macroeconomics and public finance at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro. He helped create the Institute for Functional Finance and Development (iffdbrasil.org), where he currently serves as president, and he helps run the Brazilian Modern Money Network (https://mmtbrasil.com/) aimed at producing more easily accessible material for teaching MMT to the wider public.@stopthelunacy on Twitter

We revere venture capitalists, don’t we? Without their brave acts of derring-do — AKA investing in uncertain ventures — how would society achieve progress? Just kidding.If you are a regular listener to this podcast, you’ve heard guests speak about the horizontal contradictions within the ruling class. Industrial capital and finance capital can each be affected differently by foreign, domestic, fiscal, and monetary policies. They may sing from the same hymn book but sometimes their interests diverge.Steve’s guest, Dr. Julia Ott, teaches the history of capitalism at the New School. She and Steve focus their discussion on venture capitalism and its implications on policy changes, inequality, and the racial wealth gap. They explore how venture capitalists have been heavily involved in lobbying for capital gains tax breaks, leaving them more to invest and pass on to their children, exacerbating the extremes of generational wealth and generational poverty, especially for people of color.They also observe how venture capital is assumed to create a virtuous cycle by reinvesting in multiple new companies. Historically, however, the state has been more consequential to economic growth and job creation than venture capital. For all the anti-government rhetoric flying around, especially during conservative or laissez faire periods (hello, Mr. Reagan and Mrs. Thatcher), the federal government is heavily involved in capital markets and infrastructure. Far from interfering, the state is a willing and consistent facilitator in the amassing of private wealth.Dr. Julia Ott is Associate Professor of the History of Capitalism and Co-Director of the Heilbroner Center for Capitalism Studies at the New School for Social Research.

If Macro N Cheese wasn’t committed to spreading MMT to the activist community, we might have been a history podcast. Nothing excites Steve Grumbine as much as listening to 50 hours of lectures on the French Revolution or the Black Plague. This week’s guest, Aaron Good, checks a lot of our boxes. What he brings to the table is history with a solid class analysis.Aaron is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State. American exception should not be confused with American exceptionalism; think instead of the concept of laws applying to everyone EXCEPT one nation or one elite group.During World War II, the US oligarchy saw the opportunity to replace the western European colonial powers with a new empire. They planned and created institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, the CIA — all designed to launch and support this new era of US domination of global capitalism. Imperialism required its own strategy:“To do all of this, they need to have the capitalist world all marching to America's beat. And so the Cold War is more or less ginned up and anti-communism becomes the principle around which the US empire is organized. So it's an empire, but it's not an empire that says ‘we are an empire and we're going out to rule the world.’Instead, it is packaged as a defensive response to a terrible threat. And so communism is the perfect foil because you can basically castigate any left-wing idea that you don't like as being part of this global communist plot, whether domestically or around the world. And they use this to legitimate, really, an attack on the whole world and also on the US population.”Aaron and Steve go on to discuss more of the history of US hegemony, elite criminality, and anti-democratic forces. They look at ruling class manipulation of institutions like academia, politics, and media. They critique Scandinavia as an example of democratic socialism (or social democracy?) with capitalist rule and explore the complicated legacy of Franklin D. Roosevelt.Aaron Good holds a doctorate in political science from Temple University. He is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State, and host of the American Exception podcast. Support him on patreon.com/americanexception@Aaron_Good_ on Twitter

When you realize the national debt is little more than a bunch of interest-bearing savings accounts, you will have effectively neutered the politicians and pundits who wield it like a weapon to keep the people in line and tame the working class. Every year in the US, the debt ceiling alarm is rung right on schedule. Just like Halloween.Interest-bearing Treasury bills are not available to most of us. (Do you have an account with the Federal Reserve? No? Exactly.) Rohan Grey is back to explain how these things work for the select elite. Not only do the rest of us handle money differently—we think about it differently. The words we use have different meanings.“The average person might think money is the opposite of debt. Well, that's not how the financiers think. That's not how the bankers think. That's not how the hedge fund managers think. For them, cash is debt. Debt is cash. It just depends on what they're talking about.”We’re supposed to believe the US is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Every time a Treasury bill comes due, we should hold our collective breath and pray the government has the funds to pay down another installment of the “debt.” Rohan takes us through the day-to-day buying and selling of Treasurys. The financiers, bankers, and hedge fund managers aren’t worried. At least not about US insolvency. We can exhale.Steve and Rohan talk about the trillion-dollar platinum coin and the law that makes it a ridiculously simple solution. If only the ruling elite didn’t have a different agenda.The Macro N Cheese official Rohan Grey cultural references spotter flagged The Rocky Horror Picture Show, a Beatles song (Taxman, of course), Better Call Saul, Seinfeld, and Kaleidoscope, Natasha Lyonne’s new Netflix series. Chuck E. Cheese and McDonald’s pop up as well.Chuck E. Cheese and McDonald’s show up as well.Rohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

In September, Real Progressives had a webinar with Michael Hudson. It gave our volunteers the opportunity to ask him about his book, The Destiny of Civilization: Finance Capitalism, Industrial Capitalism, or Socialism. This week’s podcast brings you the audio of that event.Although his book looks at three economic philosophies, the Q & A focused on contrasting the dynamics of finance capitalism and industrial capitalism. Michael makes the case that in its early days industrial capitalism promoted investment in public infrastructure and basic services, allowing industry to invest in development.Finance capitalism basically sought to break away and consume all of the public infrastructure. Most financial fortunes are made by privatizing the public domain – natural resources and public utilities yield fortunes in economic rent without private investment. This has led to the US, for example, turning over its economic planning to the financial sector.“The objective of finance capitalism, contrary to what's taught in the textbooks, is to make economies high cost, to raise the cost every year.”When asked about debt deflation, Michael explains that the increase in consumer debt leaves less and less money to be spent on consumption.“Right now, you're having the debt-ridden American economy being squeezed. More and more money is paid, not only for debt, but also for other overhead, like healthcare and various monopoly services that are not available to buy goods and services. Debt deflation is when the growth of debt exceeds the rate of growth of the economy. And that's true of every economy.”Since 1945, every recovery in the US and the other western economies has been accompanied by rising levels of debt, making each recovery slower.Michael talks about the current global political economy, oil prices, debt jubilees, monetary hegemony, and the US political parties. When asked for solutions, his answers might be troubling to some. It’s worth hearing him out.Michael Hudson is an American economist, Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri–Kansas City and a research associate at the Levy Economics Institute at Bard College. He is a former Wall Street analyst, political consultant, commentator and journalist.

Rohan Grey always uses cool cultural references. Six minutes into the episode he brings up Tintin. Later we hear about Wile E. Coyote, Star Trek, Teletubbies and Wagnerian opera.The Tintin tale concerns a treasure hunt that required Tintin to find three maps; only when they were overlaid could he see the location of the treasure. Rohan Grey relates this to the critical juncture of law, political economy, and technology. He reviews the relationship of all three throughout the history of money.Rohan and Steve also revisit the (relatively short) history of the MMT community – what they got right as well as missed opportunities. Brett Scott was at the first MMT conference talking about privacy and the war on cash. These issues are more vital today than they were then, yet have never become part of the MMT canon, which tends to stick to the original hits, like the Rolling Stones still performing “Satisfaction” half a century later.“If crypto, quote/unquote, wins the public consciousness, I think that's a net loss for a lot of things MMT cares about. I'm anti crypto in that sense – as in capital C, crypto. What it stands for as a historical phenomenon right now is the empowerment of a group of people, the dominant strain of which is pro capitalist, pro massive wealth inequality, pro grift and fraud, pro right wing libertarian monetary theories, pro contempt of collective governance.”Rohan and Steve discuss how to organize around what is useful from the crypto space without defending it. The distrust of government is healthy – many are illegitimate and corrupt – but Rohan asks why the same critique isn’t applied to property rights. How can it be acceptable for Ted Turner to be a billionaire owning half of Montana? Why does the state become illegitimate only when it wants to tax him? Rohan suggests leaning into pockets of relevance. There’s value to be gained by understanding the opposition.Rohan asks our listeners to support #MintTheCoin and to check out the Freedom Box Foundation as well as the work being done with Creative Commons and copyleft.Rohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

When you Google John Kiriakou, the descriptive label that pops up with his name is Whistleblower.John was an analyst and case officer for the Central Intelligence Agency during the anti-communist era and then the anti-terrorist era. (Where did all the communists go? Aren’t they a threat anymore? Were they ever? Those will have to be questions for another day.)He is also an author, activist, and co-host of Political Misfits on Radio Sputnik. He and Michelle Witte regularly have Steve on their show as a guest to talk about (what else?) macroeconomics. Now we get to hear his story, working with—and then against—the CIA.Of the 14 CIA agents who were offered to be trained in ‘enhanced interrogation’ techniques during the hunt for al-Qaeda in 2002, John was the only one who declined. He also came to be the only CIA employee to go to prison in connection with the torture program. He was charged with passing classified information to a reporter.In addition to sharing his personal experience, John talks with Steve about the history and role of the deep state, how it has transformed over the years, and both the public and political level of tolerance for it. If you still think power rests in the hands of our elected officials, you should listen to this episode.John Kiriakou is an author, journalist, and whistleblower. He is co-host, with Michelle Witte, of Political Misfits. Kiriakou was a CIA analyst and case officer. In 2007, he became the first U.S. government official to confirm that water-boarding was used to interrogate al-Qaeda prisoners, which he described as torture. In 2012, Kiriakou was convicted of passing classified information to a reporter and received a 30-month sentence.He is the author of Doing Time Like a Spy: How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison; The Convenient Terrorist: Abu Zubaydah and the Weird Wonderland of America's Secret Wars; The Reluctant Spy: My Secret Life in the CIA's War on Terror; The CIA Insider's Guide to the Iran Crisis.Find his work on johnkiriakou.substack.com@JohnKiriakou on Twitter

**Happy New Year from Real Progressives and Macro N Cheese. If you would like to help us continue to bring you great content, please consider becoming a monthly sponsor at patreon.com/realprogressives. Your contributions help pay for the tech platforms and equipment that keep this podcast alive.**This week’s episode is the recording of a recent RP Live webinar with Brett Scott, author of Cloudmoney: Cash, Cards, Crypto, and the War for Our Wallets.In terms of its politics, the digital money movement is largely only discussed by the mainstream media, ever ready to promote the interests of big finance and big tech. Brett makes the case that leftists and MMTers need to get involved. Those of us with knowledge of the monetary system are particularly well-situated to recognize potential minefields and see through lies that are being passed off as fact. For example, there is the notion of inevitability. Once the automobile was invented, it was only a matter of time before the horse cart would disappear. We’re also led to believe that the move to replace cash with digital comes from the bottom up—from ordinary people. We need only consider who is pushing this so-called cashless society. And who profits from it. Crypto itself is simply another commodity to be bought and sold with... money.Brett presents interesting ways of considering the war against cash and the future of money. In the second half of the episode, he takes questions from attendees. If you haven’t heard his interviews on Macro N Cheese, now would be a good time to do so.Brett Scott is an author, journalist, and activist, who explores the intersections between money systems, finance, and digital technology. He’s the author of The Heretics Guide to Global Finance: Hacking the Future of Money. His latest book is Cloudmoney: Cash, Cards, Crypto, and the War for Our Wallets. Find more of his work on brettscott.substack.com@suitpossum on Twitter