

In the National Interest
Center for the National Interest
"In the National Interest" is a podcast that explores the intersection of foreign and defense policy, national security, and U.S. politics. It is not about world affairs, but about American interests and the realist approach needed to promote them. What actually constitutes true realism is, of course, a source of controversy. And so, the series promotes fresh debate by featuring a variety of leading experts from government, industry, journalism, and academia, many of whom may at times disagree with each other. Each episode is hosted by Jacob Heilbrunn, editor of The National Interest magazine, and published by the Center for the National Interest.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Jun 26, 2025 • 1h 12min
The Sorcerer's Apprentice? American Politics from Buckley to Trump (w/ Sam Tanenhaus)
Sam Tanenhaus, former editor of The New York Times Book Review and author of the upcoming biography on William F. Buckley, dives into the currents shaping American politics. He discusses how Buckley’s strategies resonate in today’s political landscape and the impact of outsider campaigns. The conversation highlights the cultural backlash seen in Trump’s rise and critiques the media's portrayal of ideologies. The dialogue also touches on voter dynamics, the challenges of truth in politics, and the evolving nature of conservative thought.

Apr 24, 2025 • 26min
Diplomacy in the Crosshairs (w/ Paul Saunders)
Secretary of State Marco Rubio has released the Trump administration's plans for reorganizing the State Department—a first step toward reducing what the White House calls a bloated and inefficient bureaucracy. The proposed reforms could reshape U.S. engagement with the world, ending America’s human rights advocacy, shuttering key diplomatic offices, and threatening the very infrastructure that supports global U.S. leadership. With Congress holding the purse strings and foreign governments watching closely, how far will these reforms go—and at what cost to American influence and values abroad?In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with Paul Saunders, the president of the Center for the National Interest. Saunders served in the George W. Bush Administration from 2003 to 2005 as Senior Advisor to the Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs.Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay

Apr 7, 2025 • 17min
Trump's Tariffs and Energy Market Turmoil (w/ Tatiana Mitrova)
President Donald Trump’s announcement of sweeping new global tariffs last week sent shockwaves through international markets, igniting fears of economic slowdown and triggering retaliatory measures from major trading partners like China. The consequences are already reverberating through the global energy system: oil and gas prices are sliding, producers are under pressure, and the clean energy transition faces fresh headwinds as tariffs hit solar panels, EVs, and battery components. With geopolitical tensions simmering and economic uncertainty rising, could Trump’s tariff gamble reshape the global energy landscape for years to come? And how vulnerable is Russia’s oil-dependent economy in this new low-price era? In this episode, Paul Saunders speaks with Tatiana Mitrova, a Research Fellow at Columbia University’s Center on Global Energy Policy and Director of the New Energy Advancement Hub. Mitrova has twenty-five years of experience in dealing with global energy markets, including production, transportation, demand, energy policy, pricing, and market restructuring.Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay

Apr 2, 2025 • 17min
Rethinking American Grand Strategy (w/ Ionut Popescu)
What should America's grand strategy look like in a world shaped by resurgent great powers, regional conflict, and rising multipolarity? As China pushes to dominate the Asia-Pacific and Russia asserts itself in its near abroad, the stakes for global order—and for U.S. leadership—have never been higher. Meanwhile, the Trump administration faces the challenge of distinguishing first-order priorities from second-order distractions. Should Washington continue pursuing global primacy, or shift toward a leaner, more focused strategy rooted in realism? In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with Ionut Popescu, Associate Professor of Political Science at Texas State University. Dr. Popescu is the recent author of No Peer Rivals: American Grand Strategy in the Era of Great Power Competition.Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay

Mar 18, 2025 • 24min
America First, Unbound? (w/ Curt Mills)
The second Trump administration is moving at breakneck speed to reshape American foreign policy, with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin holding an extended phone call on Tuesday over a provisional 30-day ceasefire in Ukraine. Meanwhile, Trump continues to escalate threats of sweeping tariffs on foreign goods, rattling global markets and further cementing his “America First” economic doctrine. These rapid shifts underscore the dominance of the MAGA movement, as the old guard of the Republican Party has been swept aside. What does an unbound Trump presidency mean for America’s role in the world? In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with Curt Mills, executive director of The American Conservative. Mills previously worked at The National Interest, U.S. News & World Report, Washington Examiner, and The Spectator. He was a 2018-2019 Robert Novak Journalism Fellow.Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay

Mar 7, 2025 • 15min
Donald Trump’s Foreign Policy Shake-Up (w/ Antonia Ferrier)
President Donald Trump has thrown another curveball into global politics, seemingly reversing course on Ukraine negotiations and threatening new sanctions on Russia in a Truth Social post—just as he hints at potential diplomatic talks with Tehran. Such abrupt shifts in recent weeks have left Washington and America's allies scrambling, raising urgent questions about the future of U.S. commitments in Europe and elsewhere. As Europe begins to step up its defense ambitions, will Trump's unpredictability push the continent toward greater strategic independence? And with some Republican lawmakers growing uneasy about his Ukraine stance, is there real resistance within the GOP, or just political posturing? In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with long-time Republican strategist Antonia Ferrier. Ferrier has extensive experience on Capitol Hill, including as a staff director in the office of former Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY).Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay

Dec 8, 2024 • 20min
The Fall of Syria's Assad Regime (w/ Greg Priddy)
On Sunday, Syrian rebel forces captured the capital Damascus and forced President Bashar al-Assad to flee the country to Moscow, ending more than 50 years of Assad family rule. What do these rapid and momentous developments mean for the future of Syria? And what are the ramifications for Iran, Israel, and Russia in the Middle East? In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with Greg Priddy, a Senior Fellow for the Middle East at the Center for the National Interest. Priddy consults for corporate and financial clients on political risk in the region and previously served as Director for Global Oil at Eurasia Group.Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay

Nov 7, 2024 • 13min
Trump's Second-Term Blueprint (w/ Daniel McCarthy)
As president-elect Donald Trump moves to build his second administration, will he follow the Reaganite path of smaller government and lower taxes, or will he instead break from traditional Republican doctrine to focus on industrial growth and pro-family policies? Will his national security team be hawkish or dovish? And just how serious is he about his proposed tariffs? In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with Daniel McCarthy, the editor of Modern Age: A Conservative Review. McCarthy is the author of a recent New York Times essay on the 2024 presidential election, “This Is Why Trump Won.”Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay

Nov 6, 2024 • 11min
Trump’s Second Act (w/ Harry Kazianis)
In a stunning political comeback, former president Donald Trump routed vice president Kamala Harris in Tuesday's presidential election to reclaim the White House. What does his victory signal for the future of U.S. democracy? And how will a second Trump administration reshape U.S. foreign policy on Ukraine and Taiwan? In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with Harry J. Kazianis, executive editor of The National Interest. Kazianis previously served as part of the foreign policy team for Senator Ted Cruz's 2016 presidential campaign and worked for the conservative Heritage Foundation.Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay

Oct 1, 2024 • 13min
Iran’s Ballistic Missile Attack on Israel (w/ Zalmay Khalilzad)
On Tuesday evening, Iran launched hundreds of ballistic missiles at Israel in what appears to be a direct response to Israel's actions in Lebanon over the past week. What are the consequences of the attack? How great is the danger of further escalation into a regional conflict? And what impact might these events have on next month’s U.S. presidential election? In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with former ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad. Khalilzad served as U.S. Special Representative for Afghanistan Reconciliation from 2018 to 2021 and before that held multiple posts in the George W. Bush administration as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2007-09), to Iraq (2005-07), and to Afghanistan (2004-05).Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay