The Customer Success Playbook

Send us a textReady to inject some punk spirit into your customer experience? In this episode of the Customer Success Playbook, Adrian Swinscoe joins Roman Trebon to explore the delicate art of reducing friction without losing that vital human touch. From the bustling cultural tapestry of Edinburgh’s Fringe Festival to personal tales of rock climbing and postponed trips to Japan, Adrian sets the stage with personality before diving into why not all friction is bad. He reveals why some “effortful” moments between a brand and its customers actually build loyalty, and how removing them in the name of efficiency can backfire spectacularly. If you’re looking to refine your customer journey without sterilizing it, this episode serves up the perfect balance of practical wisdom and a punk attitude.In a world obsessed with streamlining every process, this episode is a refreshing reminder that operational efficiency is not always the hero of customer success. Adrian Swinscoe brings a nuanced perspective: friction isn’t the bogeyman it’s often made out to be. By distinguishing between “good friction” — those meaningful touchpoints that enrich customer relationships — and “bad friction” that truly hinders progress, organizations can avoid the pitfall of a too-easy, yet emotionally barren, experience. His example of a company that saw sign-ups soar but retention dive thanks to over-simplification is a cautionary tale for businesses tempted to sanitize their customer journey too aggressively.The actionable takeaway? Approach your customer journey analysis with deliberate care and use data combined with direct customer feedback to fine-tune that balance. This means digging deep into customer stories and operational metrics to identify where technology should speed things up and where human moments need to be preserved or even amplified. Adrian’s advice serves as a critical chapter in your customer success playbook, fueling smarter decisions that respect both business goals and the emotional dynamics that bind customers to your brand.Bonus: His reflections on rock climbing as a meditative, focus-driven hobby provide a clever metaphor for the customer success journey itself—it’s about balance, precision, and the right amount of challenge.Now you can interact with us directly by leaving a voice message at https://www.speakpipe.com/CustomerSuccessPlaybookPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.

Send us a textReady to shake up your customer experience approach with some no-fluff, straight-to-the-point wisdom? In this episode, Adrian Swinscoe – author of *Punk CX* and *How to Wow* – joins Roman Trebon to deliver a masterclass on how real, actionable data combined with firsthand customer stories can transform your CX from good to unforgettable. Learn why "going to the gemba" (that’s Japanese for “go see where the work happens”) can be the secret weapon in your customer success playbook, and why less complexity often results in more memorable experiences.Adrian Swinscoe dives deep into a pragmatic, almost punk rock philosophy of customer experience that’s anything but conventional. His call to action? Don’t get lost in the sea of binary data points and over-engineered solutions. Yes, data is king – but raw numbers alone often feel like a monochrome sketch. True customer success leaders bring color and context by blending quantitative insights with rich, qualitative stories. It’s these narratives that move teams to act and innovate, bridging the gap between cold metrics and vibrant human emotion.Swinscoe invokes the Toyota-inspired practice of “going to the gemba,” encouraging CX leaders to ditch conference rooms and dashboards for direct observation—whether it’s sitting with frontline agents or experiencing the product as a customer would. This boots-on-the-ground approach fosters empathy, reveals friction points invisible in reports, and catalyzes meaningful change.Echoing his punk ethos, Adrian warns against the natural tendency to keep piling on features and processes under the guise of “improvement.” Instead, simplicity should be your compass. If you add one new element to a process, critique what two things you can eliminate. Complexity is easy; elegance and clarity require discipline—and they pay dividends in customer loyalty.Roman’s illustrated comic example highlights the paradox: an overcomplicated onboarding and an overly simplified offboarding process reveal where brands lose customers—not because of lack of effort, but too much of the wrong kind of effort.For anyone seeking practical, actionable guidance on staying ahead in the crowded CX arena, this conversation is a treasure trove. Tune in, challenge your assumptions, and enrich your customer success playbook with these hard-earned lessons on observation, storytelling, and ruthless simplicity.Now you can interact with us directly by leaving a voice message at https://www.speakpipe.com/CustomerSuccessPlaybookPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.

Send us a textHow do you build AI governance that scales without becoming the innovation police? In our final conversation with tech lawyer Gayle Gorvett, we tackle the ultimate balancing act facing every organization: creating robust AI oversight that moves at the speed of business. From shocking federal court rulings that could force AI companies to retain all user data indefinitely, to the Trump administration's potential overhaul of copyright law, this episode reveals how rapidly the legal landscape is shifting beneath our feet. Gayle breaks down practical frameworks from NIST and Duke University that adapt to your specific business needs while avoiding the dreaded legal bottleneck. Whether you're protecting customer data or designing the future of work, this customer success playbook episode provides the roadmap for scaling governance without sacrificing innovation velocity.Detailed AnalysisThe tension between governance speed and innovation velocity represents one of the most critical challenges facing modern businesses implementing AI at scale. Gayle Gorvett's insights into adaptive risk frameworks offer a compelling alternative to the traditional "slow and thorough" legal approach that often strangles innovation in bureaucratic red tape.The revelation about the OpenAI versus New York Times case demonstrates how quickly the legal landscape can shift with far-reaching implications. A single magistrate judge's ruling requiring OpenAI to retain all user data—regardless of contracts, enterprise agreements, or international privacy laws—illustrates the unpredictable nature of AI regulation. For customer success professionals, this uncertainty demands governance frameworks that can rapidly adapt to new legal realities without completely derailing operational efficiency.The discussion of NIST and Duke University frameworks reveals the democratization of enterprise-level governance tools. These resources make sophisticated risk assessment accessible to organizations of all sizes, eliminating the excuse that "we're too small for proper AI governance." This democratization aligns perfectly with the customer success playbook philosophy of scalable, repeatable processes that deliver consistent outcomes regardless of organizational size.Perhaps most intriguingly, the conversation touches on fundamental questions about intellectual property and compensation models in an AI-driven economy. Kevin's observation about automating human-designed workflows raises profound questions about fair compensation when human knowledge gets embedded into perpetual AI systems. This shift from time-based to value-based compensation models reflects broader changes in how customer success teams will need to demonstrate and capture value in an increasingly automated world.The technical discussion about local versus hosted AI models becomes particularly relevant for customer success teams handling sensitive customer data. The ability to contain AI processing within controlled environments versus leveraging cloud-based solutions represents a strategic decision that balances capability, cost, and compliance considerations.Gayle's emphasis on human oversight—Kevin's offeringPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.

Send us a textWhen AI systems fail spectacularly, who pays the price? Part two of our conversation with global tech lawyer Gayle Gorvett tackles the million-dollar question every business leader is afraid to ask. With federal AI regulation potentially paused for a decade while technology races ahead at breakneck speed, companies are left creating their own rules in an accountability vacuum. Gayle reveals why waiting for government guidance could be a costly mistake and how smart businesses are turning governance policies into competitive advantages. From the EU AI Act's complexity challenges to state-by-state regulatory patchwork, this customer success playbook episode exposes the legal landmines hiding in your AI implementation—and shows you how to navigate them before they explode.Detailed AnalysisThe accountability crisis in AI represents one of the most pressing challenges facing modern businesses, yet most organizations remain dangerously unprepared. Gayle Gorvett's revelation about the federal government's proposed 10-year pause on state AI laws while crafting comprehensive regulation highlights a sobering reality: businesses must become their own regulatory bodies or risk operating in a legal minefield.The concept of "private regulation" that Gayle introduces becomes particularly relevant for customer success teams managing AI-powered interactions. When your chatbots handle customer complaints, your predictive models influence renewal decisions, or your recommendation engines shape customer experiences, the liability implications extend far beyond technical malfunctions. Every AI decision becomes a potential point of legal exposure, making governance frameworks essential risk management tools rather than optional compliance exercises.Perhaps most intriguingly, Gayle's perspective on governance policies as competitive differentiators challenges the common view of compliance as a business burden. In the customer success playbook framework, transparency becomes a trust-building mechanism that strengthens customer relationships rather than merely checking regulatory boxes. Companies that proactively communicate their AI governance practices position themselves as trustworthy partners in an industry where trust remains scarce.The legal profession's response to AI—requiring disclosure to clients and technical proficiency from practitioners—offers a compelling model for other industries. This approach acknowledges that AI literacy isn't just a technical requirement but a professional responsibility. For customer success leaders, this translates into a dual mandate: understanding AI capabilities enough to leverage them effectively while maintaining enough oversight to protect customer interests.The EU AI Act's implementation challenges that Gayle describes reveal the complexity of regulating rapidly evolving technology. Even comprehensive regulatory frameworks struggle to keep pace with innovation, reinforcing the importance of internal governance structures that can adapt quickly to new AI capabilities and emerging risks. This agility becomes particularly crucial for customer-facing teams who often serve as the first line of defense Kevin's offeringPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.

Send us a textReady to navigate the complex world of AI governance without getting lost in legal jargon? This episode delivers a masterclass in building ethical AI frameworks that actually work for your business. Global tech lawyer and fractional general counsel Gayle Gorvett breaks down the essential guardrails every company needs before diving headfirst into AI implementation. From her work with Duke University's AI working groups to real-world enterprise applications, Gayle reveals why treating AI like the "shiny new toy" without proper governance is a recipe for disaster. Whether you're protecting customer data or safeguarding your company's future, this customer success playbook episode provides the foundational knowledge to approach AI adoption with confidence and compliance.Detailed AnalysisThe AI revolution isn't just changing how we work—it's fundamentally reshaping the legal and ethical landscape of business operations. Gayle Gorvett's expertise in AI governance comes at a crucial time when companies are rushing to implement AI solutions without adequate safeguards. Her comparison of current AI hype to the blockchain frenzy of a decade ago serves as a sobering reminder that sustainable innovation requires thoughtful planning, not just technological enthusiasm.The multidisciplinary approach Gayle advocates represents a significant shift in how businesses should structure their AI initiatives. Gone are the days when technology decisions could be made in isolation. Modern AI governance demands collaboration between business functions, technical teams, and legal counsel—creating a new paradigm for cross-functional leadership in customer success organizations.For customer success professionals, the implications extend far beyond internal operations. When AI systems interact with customer data, handle support tickets, or predict customer behavior, the governance framework becomes a direct reflection of your company's commitment to customer trust. Gayle's emphasis on informing customers about AI usage highlights how transparency has evolved from a nice-to-have to a business imperative.The Duke AI Risk Framework and NIST guidelines she references provide actionable starting points for organizations feeling overwhelmed by the governance challenge. These resources democratize access to enterprise-level AI governance, making sophisticated risk assessment accessible to companies of all sizes. This democratization aligns perfectly with the customer success playbook philosophy of scalable, repeatable processes that drive consistent outcomes.Perhaps most importantly, Gayle's 26-year perspective in technology law offers historical context that many AI discussions lack. Her experience through previous technology waves—from the early internet boom to blockchain—provides valuable pattern recognition for identifying sustainable AI strategies versus fleeting trends. This wisdom becomes particularly relevant for customer success leaders who must balance innovation with the reliability their customers depend on.Now you can interact with us directly by leaving a voice message at htKevin's offeringPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.

Send us a textThe final episode of this transformative series tackles the ultimate challenge: scaling AI experiences without sacrificing empathy. Jake McKee reveals why most companies approach AI transformation backwards—focusing on tools instead of relationships, replacement instead of enhancement. This customer success playbook episode demonstrates how successful AI transformation mirrors the digital transformation of the past decade, requiring fundamental changes to business processes, not just technology adoption. McKee's framework for maintaining authentic human connections while scaling AI across enterprise environments provides practical guardrails for companies navigating the complex balance between efficiency and empathy. From addressing AI hallucinations transparently to designing trust through micro-moments, this conversation offers a roadmap for AI implementations that enhance rather than diminish human relationships.Detailed AnalysisMcKee's perspective on AI transformation represents a sophisticated understanding of organizational change management applied to emerging technology. His comparison to digital transformation provides crucial context—just as companies had to fundamentally rethink business processes when moving from analog to digital, AI transformation requires reimagining workflows, decision-making processes, and human-machine collaboration models.The conversation reveals critical insights about trust-building in AI systems, emphasizing that trust develops through consistent micro-moments rather than singular grand gestures. This mirrors human relationship dynamics and provides a practical framework for designing AI experiences that build confidence over time. McKee's examples of internal process failures—particularly the 13-screen system requiring hours of work before allowing saves—illustrate how poor experience design destroys trust regardless of underlying functionality.Perhaps most valuable is McKee's nuanced approach to AI transparency and hallucination management. Rather than attempting to eliminate AI limitations, he advocates for honest communication about system capabilities and uncertainties. This customer success playbook approach recognizes that users can develop healthy relationships with imperfect AI systems when expectations are properly set and limitations are communicated clearly.The discussion also addresses the critical challenge of scaling empathetic AI across large organizations. McKee's emphasis on relationship design over feature development provides a sustainable framework for maintaining human-centric experiences even as AI implementations grow in scope and complexity. His insights about contextual AI behavior—understanding when users need speed versus thoughtful interaction—offer practical guidance for enterprise AI strategy.Now you can interact with us directly by leaving a voice message at https://www.speakpipe.com/CustomerSuccessPlaybookKevin's offeringPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.

Send us a textWhat happens when passionate customer feedback clashes with cold, hard data? Jake McKee tackles this age-old product dilemma with wisdom earned from years at Lego and building communities for Fortune 500 brands. This episode of the customer success playbook reveals why treating community building as relationship development—not just feedback collection—transforms how companies balance emotional customer input with analytical metrics. McKee's "everybody goes home happy" philosophy demonstrates how sustainable product decisions emerge when companies design mutually beneficial relationships rather than extracting value from user communities. From scale modeling to high-end fusion restaurants, this conversation weaves personal insights with professional strategies for community-driven product development.Detailed AnalysisMcKee's approach to resolving the tension between passionate customer feedback and data-driven metrics represents a sophisticated understanding of modern product development challenges. His framework moves beyond the traditional either/or mentality to reveal how qualitative community insights can actually strengthen quantitative analysis when properly interpreted through relationship context.The discussion illuminates critical flaws in conventional product development cycles, particularly the tendency to collect requirements upfront, disappear into development "black boxes" for months, then emerge with solutions disconnected from evolving customer needs. McKee's community-driven product development methodology keeps customer voices actively engaged throughout the development process, creating real-time feedback loops that prevent costly misalignments.Perhaps most valuable is McKee's perspective on starting small with community building. Rather than investing in expensive platforms and complex infrastructure, he advocates for beginning immediately with simple relationship-building activities—introducing customers to each other, facilitating peer connections, and treating community development as an ongoing relationship rather than a marketing project. This customer success playbook approach recognizes that authentic communities emerge from genuine value exchange, not sophisticated technology platforms.The conversation also explores the nuanced art of community participation, whether in branded platforms or external spaces like Reddit. McKee's guidance on "showing up" rather than "taking over" provides practical wisdom for companies looking to engage authentically with existing customer communities rather than disrupting established dynamics.Now you can interact with us directly by leaving a voice message at https://www.speakpipe.com/CustomerSuccessPlaybookKevin's offeringPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.

Send us a textThe future of AI isn't just about technology—it's about relationships. Jake McKee, renowned as "the community guy," delivers a paradigm-shifting perspective on AI adoption that goes far beyond features and functionality. Rather than getting caught up in the technical capabilities, McKee advocates for designing the emotional connection between humans and AI systems. This customer success playbook episode reveals why the most successful AI implementations focus on relationship design, helping users feel comfortable whether they're interacting with a clearly identified robot or a humanistic assistant. McKee draws from his extensive experience at Lego and Fortune 500 companies to demonstrate how thoughtful AI experience design can transform user adoption and trust.Detailed AnalysisMcKee's revolutionary concept of "AI Experience Design" (AIX) represents a fundamental shift in how organizations should approach AI implementation. His core principle—"design the relationship, not the functionality"—challenges the prevailing rush to launch AI features without considering the human emotional experience. The discussion reveals critical insights about user psychology, particularly how people naturally anthropomorphize AI systems, using phrases like "please" and "thank you" even when they know they're communicating with machines.The conversation explores the delicate balance between AI enthusiasm and appropriateness, referencing recent challenges with overly enthusiastic AI responses. McKee emphasizes that successful AI relationships require the same nuanced understanding we apply to human interactions—matching energy levels, providing appropriate friction for creative processes, and recognizing when users need quick answers versus thoughtful collaboration.Perhaps most importantly, this customer success playbook demonstrates how AI transformation requires understanding context and purpose. A customer service agent dealing with frustrated callers needs rapid, efficient AI assistance, while a creative professional benefits from AI that provides "good friction"—intentional slowdowns that prompt deeper thinking rather than overwhelming users with instant responses. This strategic approach to AI experience design ensures technology serves human needs rather than creating additional complexity.Now you can interact with us directly by leaving a voice message at https://www.speakpipe.com/CustomerSuccessPlaybookKevin's offeringPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.

In this engaging talk, John Huber, a seasoned customer success leader, unveils the revolutionary role of AI in enhancing customer success operations. He discusses tools like Chorus for conversation intelligence and Sturdy for analyzing unstructured data to predict churn and uncover opportunities. John challenges myths about AI replacing human roles, arguing it amplifies CSM capabilities instead. The conversation also highlights an innovative use of custom GPTs to strategize pricing renewals, illustrating how leaders are leveraging AI while maintaining crucial customer relationships.

Send us a textWednesday brings the burning question that divides CS and sales teams everywhere: who should own expansion revenue? John Huber tackles this contentious topic with nuanced insights drawn from his experience managing both dedicated CS-led expansion models and hybrid partnership approaches. Rather than offering a one-size-fits-all answer, John presents a thoughtful framework for determining the optimal structure based on deal complexity, sales cycle length, and organizational maturity. He shares specific examples of successful implementations, including a sophisticated model where CSMs handled straightforward upsells and renewals while account executives managed complex expansion opportunities. The discussion dives deep into compensation structures, forecasting methodologies, and the critical importance of clearly defining roles to avoid territorial conflicts. This customer success playbook episode provides practical guidance for leaders struggling to optimize their expansion strategy without sacrificing customer relationships.Detailed AnalysisThis episode addresses one of the most politically charged topics in revenue operations: expansion ownership. John's approach demonstrates sophisticated thinking about organizational design, moving beyond simple "CS versus Sales" debates to examine the underlying factors that should drive structural decisions.The hybrid model John describes represents an evolution in CS thinking, recognizing that different types of expansion opportunities require different skill sets and engagement approaches. His 70/30 compensation structure (70% quota-oriented, 30% experience-focused) within the variable component offers a practical framework for balancing commercial accountability with customer-centric behaviors.Particularly valuable is John's emphasis on forecasting churn and renewal business with the same rigor as new logo acquisition. His practice of conducting detailed risk assessments 4-5 months before fiscal year start demonstrates the proactive mindset required for successful renewal management. The recommendation to begin renewal conversations 12 months in advance challenges the reactive approach many organizations take to customer retention.The discussion also highlights the importance of cross-functional partnerships, especially between CS and finance teams, in developing accurate forecasting models. John's collaborative approach with his CFO shows how CS leaders can elevate their strategic influence by speaking the language of business operations.For revenue leaders, this episode provides a decision-making framework for expansion ownership that considers deal complexity, resource allocation, and organizational capabilities rather than defaulting to territorial thinking.Now you can interact with us directly by leaving a voice message at https://www.speakpipe.com/CustomerSuccessPlaybookPlease Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe. You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcastTwitter - @CS_PlaybookYou can find Kevin at:Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web siteKevin Metzger on Linked In.You can find Roman at:Roman Trebon on Linked In.