Deviate

“A willingness to fail is an important part of difficult beauty. Because difficult beauty will arrive first not as beauty at all.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe discuss the philosophical concept of “easy beauty” and “difficult beauty” in the context of travel (2:30); how our relationship to places changes over time with repeated exposure (15:00); how art and travel, home and adventure, became important aspects of Chloe’s life (23:00); how the archetype of the “Hero’s Journey” evokes aspects of home as well as travel (35:30); Chloe’s investigation and experience of “dark tourism” in Cambodia, and how it gave her perspective on how other people view her disability (45:15) and how there’s no easy way to navigate the polarities of the self, but trying to do so can result in a hard-won experience of beauty (1:08:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Bernard Bosanquet (English philosopher) Sublime (philosophical concept) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s summer writing classes) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Lake Como (lake region in Italy) “The Loss of the Creature,” essay by Walker Percy Teotihuacan (pyramid site in Mexico) Pico Iyer (travel writer) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (book) Quality (philosophical concept) “Such Perfection,” (Believer essay by Chloe Cooper Jones) The High Line (elevated greenway park in New York City) Roland Barthes (French literary theorist) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) The Sheltering Sky, by Paul Bowles (novel) Heroes of the Fourth Turning (2019 play by Will Arbery) “The Grateful Acre,” monologue from Arbery’s play Hero’s journey (narrative template) Minangkabau people (ethnic group in Sumatra) Wanderjahre (journeyman tradition in Germany) Gyoza (Chinese dumplings) Thich Nhat Hanh (Vietnamese Buddhist monk) Killing Fields (genocide sites in Cambodia) Poetics, by Aristotle (philosophical treatise) Catharsis (purging or purification of emotions) The Philosophy of Horror, by Noël Carroll (book) Dark tourism (phenomenon of travel to tragic places) Tuol Sleng (Cambodian genocide museum) Francis Galton (English explorer and geographer) Tuk-tuk (auto-rickshaw common in SE Asia) Sørumsand (provincial town in Norway) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel is one of the few activities we engage in not knowing the outcome and reveling in that uncertainty. Nothing is more forgettable than the trip that goes exactly as planned.” –Eric Weiner In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Eric discuss the tendency of travelers to idealize the very recent bygone past in places, and Rolf’s experience of traveling by freighter ship (2:00); Eric’s satisfaction in returning to places he’s visited before, such as India, and how to remain open to uncertainty and surprise on the road (9:30); how conversations about travel differ from generation to generation, culture to culture, person to person (20:00); what it was like for Eric to have his book The Geography of Bliss adapted into a TV show, and the nuances behind the concept of “happiness” (28:30); how the experience of travel is inevitably intertwined with the experience of home (38:00); how luxury hotels can insulate you from the experience of a place, and how “adventure travel” is modern concept (43:30); and how Eric’s relationship to home, and to time, has changed over the years (58:30). Eric Weiner (@Eric_Weiner) is an award-winning journalist, bestselling author, and speaker. His books include The Socrates Express, and The Geography of Bliss, which is being made into a six-part docu-series, featuring actor Rainn Wilson, and due to air on NBC’s Peacock streaming service. For more about Eric, check out https://ericweinerbooks.com/ Notable Links: Philosophy compels us to live better (Deviate episode) Rainn Wilson and the Geography of Bliss (TV series) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Boatswain (deck boss on a freighter ship) Seven Pillars of Wisdom (book by T.E. Lawrence) Eric Weiner’s Atlas of Ideas (email newsletter) Keitai denwa (Japanese mobile phone culture) Grunge (1990s alternative music culture) K-Pop (Korean popular music) Hangul (Korean alphabet) World Happiness Report Rainn Wilson (TV actor and producer) Quilts for Kids Nepal (nonprofit organization) Ibn Battuta (medieval Moroccan traveler) Beryl Markham (aviator and author) Kamba (ethnic group in Kenya) Thar Desert (arid region in India) The Geography of Genius, by Eric Weiner (book) Yi-Fu Tuan (Chinese-American geographer) “Little Gidding” (poem by T.S. Eliot) Uffizi Gallery (museum in Florence) Teaism (DC-based teahouse) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel expands time, because you’re not experiencing the everyday of what you normally do. It’s all about discovery, and experiencing that with other people.” —Pegi Vail In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pegi talk about how she originally sought to depict a “visual ethnography” of world travelers, their global impacts, and their power as a “gentrifying” force (2:00); how the world of travel has (and hasn’t) changed since Pegi made her film ten years ago, and how immigrants and migrant workers also represent travel communities just like backpackers and expats (11:00); the ways the notion of “journey” can serve as a metaphor for non-travel experiences, and how travel can expand one’s sense of time (26:30); what stories travelers choose to tell about places, and how drug-scenes have fueled travel communitas over the years (31:00); the role digital photography now plays in travel, and the individualized notion of what an “explorer” is (39:30); and the importance of allowing yourself to get lost on that road, the “structured danger” of most adventure travel, and relying on your “personness” (rather than technology) as a traveler (49:00). Pegi Vail is an anthropologist and filmmaker who directed the documentary Gringo Trails.  She is also a sustainable-travel consultant whose academic work has focused on visual anthropology, Indigenous media, and the role of storytelling to the political economy of tourism in the developing world. She is the Co-Director of New York University’s Center for Media, Culture, and History. Vail is a founding member, curator, and featured storyteller of the popular not-for-profit storytelling collective, The Moth. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Williamsburg (gentrified neighborhood in Brooklyn) Banana Pancake Trail (travel circuit in SE Asia) Lower East Side Tenement Museum (historic site in NYC) History of hosteling (inexpensive lodging system) Hippie Trail (overland travel circuit in 1960s and 1970s) The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald (novel) Hmong people (ethic group in SE Asia) Nelson H. H. Graburn (anthropology scholar) Communitas (communities created by shared endeavor) Arnold van Gennep (ethnographer who coined “rites of passage”) Chaebol (South Korean industrial conglomerate) Rolf and Ari Shaffir talk psychedelics (Deviate episode) Backpack Ambassadors, by Richard Ivan Jobs (book) Margaret Mead Film Festival (documentary film festival) Spike Lee (American filmmaker) Melvin Estrella (Pegi’s partner and film producer) J. Edgar Hoover (American law-enforcement administrator) Eurail Pass (European train pass popular with backpackers) On Photography, by Susan Sontag (book) The Explorers Club (professional club in New York) Saul Bellow (American novelist) A Field Guide to Getting Lost, by Rebecca Solnit (book) Beryl Markham (British-African aviator and author) Digital detoxing (intentional refrain from using digital devices) Hippocampus (part of the brain) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Why fly fourteen hours from New York to Johannesburg to see a South African version of Brooklyn? To me, the only reason to know what destinations are ‘hot’ is to avoid them.” —Seth Kugel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Seth talk about how the travel industry both helps and hinders the travel experience, and how Seth first experienced travel when he was young (1:30); tourist desire, the “beaten path,” and the contradictions of what travelers seek in AirBnbs and related property-renting services (10:30); dealing with language barriers overseas, and social versus literal risks overseas (20:00); balancing general tourist advice versus nuanced insights as a travel writer, and the role new technologies play in travel decisions (27:00); and why it’s a good idea to avoid places that have been deemed “trendy,” and how to break out of the bad habits of travel (40:30). Seth Kugel (@sethkugel) is a travel writer, freelance journalist, and host of the Amigo Gringo YouTube channel. He was the Frugal Traveler columnist for the New York Times from 2010 to 2016, and he is most recently the author of the book Rediscovering Travel: A Guide for the Globally Curious. For more on Seth, check out his website http://sethkugel.com/ Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Transnistria (breakaway part of Moldova) Nagorno-Karabakh (breakaway part of Azerbaijan) The World in a Selfie, by Marco D’Eramo (book) Principe Real (neighborhood in Lisbon) Wichita Vortex Sutra (poem by Allen Ginsberg) Nancy Mitford (English novelist) Barbarian Days, by William Finnegan (book) Arthur Frommer (guidebook writer) Bukittinggi (city in Sumatra) Malcolm X (American activist and traveler) Bangkok Post (English-language newspaper in Thailand) Hindustan Times (English-language newspaper in India) “Free Fallin’” (song by Tom Petty) Punta Cana (resort town in the Dominican Republic) “Driving Through the Heartland,” by Seth Kugel (article) Chicken Annie’s and Chicken Mary’s (Kansas restaurants) Red Queen’s race (metaphor about running to stand still) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“There’s no getting lost when you travel, because you’re already there. You’re already where you’re supposed to be, which is somewhere in this new place.” –Ari Shaffir In this episode of Deviate, which took place at New York City’s KGB Bar, Rolf and Ari talk about the premise of Rolf’s new book The Vagabond’s Way (2:20); why it’s important not to postpone one’s dream travels to a seemingly more appropriate time of life, and how it’s hard for your friends to appreciate and understand your travels when you get home (7:30); how to not let your smartphones and photographs get in the way of your best journey (15:00); how to best decide where to start on a journey, and why allowing yourself to get lost is sometimes the best way to find experiences a place (23:00); why the philosophical concept of “time wealth” is important to Rolf, and how travel allows you to express a unique feeling freedom (31:30); how the The Vagabond’s Way is the “spiritual successor” to Vagabonding, and how Rolf keeps travel in conversation with his home life in Kansas (36:00); and how to savor a new place in the moment, even as that place is changing (44:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of the Skeptic Tank podcast. His new comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s summer creative writing classes) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Henry Rollins on Ari’s podcast Skeptic Tank Commonplace book (method of compiling knowledge) Jasmin Shah (photographer) Wenamun (ancient Egyptian traveler) Matsuo Bashō, (Japanese poet and traveler) On Photography, by Susan Sontag (book) Mentawai people (inhabitants of islands near Sumatra) Cypress Hill (American hip-hop group) Pico Iyer (travel writer) Pagan Holiday, by Tony Perrottet (book) Icelandic Sagas (Nordic historic narratives) Koshary (Egyptian national dish) Chefchaouen (city in Morocco) Tétouan (city in Morocco) Inle Lake (lake in Myanmar) Eddy L. Harris (travel writer) Aosta Valley (region in the Italian Alps) Instagram shot of Rolf’s first vagabonding trip Mary Oliver (American poet) Lindsborg, Kansas (“Little Sweden”) Lower East Side (neighborhood in Manhattan) Umbria (region in Italy) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel is often one part geography and nine parts imagination.” –Kate Harris In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Kate discuss how travel can transform one’s idea of what “exploration” is (3:00); the concept of borders (14:00); nostalgia and the transformational effect of travel (25:00); the role of home in relation to travel (34:00); and letting adventure into your life (44:00). Kate Harris (@kateonmars) is an adventure writer, named by Condé Nast Traveler as one of the “world’s most adventurous women.” Her work has appeared in Outside, The Walrus, and Georgia Review. Her book, Lands of Lost Borders, is a national bestseller For more about Kate, check out www.kateharris.ca Notable Links: Rolf’s Q&A with Kate Harris (book foreword) Silk Road (network of trade routes) Ernest Shackleton (explorer) Fridtjof Nansen (explorer) Annie Dillard (American author) Wind, Sand and Stars, by Antoine de Saint-Exupery (book) Henry David Thoreau (writer) My Journey to Lhasa, by Alexandra David-Neel (book) Aksai Chin (region administered by China) Marco Polo (historical figure) Tomas Tranströmer (poet) Atlin (community in British Columbia) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“I didn’t know where we were going, and I didn’t know how long we were going to be gone. I brought no food, not even a bottle of water. When that boat left the dock, I felt so free. I threw off all these anxieties about control.” –Carl Hoffman In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Carl talk about the premise of The Lunatic Express, which took Carl around the world on a series of local buses, trains, planes, and ferries (2:30); how to overcome the common fears of traveling in this manner, and how tourism infrastructure isn’t required for travel in places (9:30); how making yourself vulnerable to new places leaves you open to the people who live there (22:30); the role that simple conversation, smells, and open-ended activity plays in the lives of isolated communities (30:00); and Carl’s advice for leaving yourself open to spontaneous travel experiences (40:00). Carl Hoffman (@lunaticcarl) is the author of four books, including The Lunatic Express, and Savage Harvest: A Tale of Cannibals, Colonialism, and Michael Rockefeller’s Tragic Quest. Notable Links: People, Places & Things (play starring Kristen Bush) Meridian Hill Park (urban park in DC) Maggie Downs (travel writer) “Strange Bird” (Outside article about a pilot in the Congo) Moluccas (archipelago in Indonesia) Asmat (region in Papua) Sambal (Indonesian chili sauce) Buru (island in Indonesia) Pramoedya Ananta Toer (Indonesian novelist) Suharto (Indonesian president from 1967-1998) Sons of the Waves, by Stephen Taylor (book about sailors) Sago (palm starch used for food) Cando (town in North Dakota) Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Eat what is put in front of you. They are not making fun of you. The rooster’s head floating in the soup really is given to the honored guest. If you insist on being a picky eater, stay home.” –Tim Cahill In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim talk about the premise of Tim’s classic essay “Professor Cahill’s Travel 101” (1:30); the importance of having a “quest” on a journey (8:00); how boredom can enhance the experience of travel, and why rest-days are important to a journey (15:00); why one should avoid whining (and compulsively talking about bowel movements) on group journeys (21:00); why packing too much gear — and obsessively trying to save money on the road — can be counterproductive to engaged travel (25:00); why it’s important to be daring with trying new food on the road (40:00); and why bad travel experiences make for better stories than pleasant ones (45:00). Tim Cahill is a journalist, author, and pioneering travel writer. For more from Tim, check out his Rolling Stone and Outside archives, or his 2004 Q&A with Rolf. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Outside (magazine) Hold the Enlightenment, by Tim Cahill (book) Stoicism (ancient philosophy) Royal Commentaries of the Incas, by Garcilaso de la Vega (book) Francisco Pizarro (Spanish conquistador) Book Passage Travel Writers Conference The Old Patagonian Express, by Paul Theroux (book) Uinta Mountains (mountain range in Utah) 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre Fish River Canyon (canyon in Namibia) Richard Bangs (travel-TV host and author) Leimebamba (province in Peru) Skua (predatory seabirds common in Antarctic regions) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“When you’re not sitting across from someone, you’re sitting across from the whole world.” –Stephanie Rosenbloom In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stephanie talk about the rewards of traveling alone, and how to mix solo and companion travel within a single trip (2:00); how going alone makes you more receptive to museums, restaurants, and walking in a new play (11:00); how to better savor your travel experiences while they’re happening (21:00); certifying versus savoring experiences, and how to balance travel as an external act with a more spiritual internal process (31:00); and strategies for savoring solo travel experiences (46:00). Stephanie Rosenbloom (@stephronyt) is a travel writer for The New York Times, where she has been a reporter for more than a decade, and the author of the book, Alone Time: Four Seasons, Four Cities, and the Pleasures of Solitude. For more about Stephanie, check out http://www.stephanierosenbloom.com. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) On Karawa (Japanese conceptual artist) Flâneur (urban stroller in France) The Marais (district in Paris) The Motorcycle Diaries, by Ernesto Guevara (book) Thích Nhất Hạnh (Buddhist monk and author) Savoring, by Fred B. Bryant (book) Uffizi (art museum in Florence, Italy) The Birth of Venus (painting by Botticelli) LiveTrekker (route-tracking app) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Busking (street performance) Evernote (task-management app) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“A travel journal helps you remember more than what you did and saw. It will helps you remember how you became the person you are today.” –Lavinia Spalding In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Lavinia talk about the section of Rolf’s book The Vagabond’s Way that touches on travel journaling, what what purposes a travel journal can serve (1:30); how journals give you perspective on the person you used to be, and how the journaling habit develops over time (9:00); strategies for being vulnerable and honest in a travel journal (15:00); strategies for being consistent with a journal on the road (19:00); employing non-visual senses and evoking less-than-ideal experiences to capture more subtle textures in a travel journal (25:30); how a journal gives you a pretext to approach and even interview people who interest you on the road (33:00); how to take notes in the field, how to maintain an ongoing relationship with old travel journals, and why travel journals serve to make a journey more meaningful (41:00). Lavinia Spalding (@laviniaspalding) is a travel writer and series editor of The Best Women’s Travel Writing. She has author of Writing Away, and co-author of With a Measure of Grace and This Immeasurable Place. For more about Lavinia, check out http://laviniaspalding.com/. Notable Links: Jack London (novelist and journalist) Busan (city in South Korea) Before Sunrise (1995 Richard Linklater movie) Bullet journal (method of note-taking) Clove cigarettes Rainer Maria Rilke (Austrian poet) Khentrul Lodro Thaye Rinpoche (Buddhist lama) Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes (children’s song) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book) Travel Writing and Global Change (TEDx talk by Lavinia Spalding) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.