Discomfortable

Sally Adnams Jones   In Episode 94, I interview author, educator, counsellor, and artist Sally Adnams Jones. Sally did her PhD in Arts Education with a focus on transformation through creative practices, an exploration that uncovered some powerful insights about the interplay between shame and creativity. I first encountered Sally’s work on the app Clubhouse where she led an in-depth session on shame, and I knew I had to have her on the podcast. Sally’s words on shame are always insightful and inspiring, and this interview is no exception! Whereas I often focus on the individual experience of shame, Sally expands that perspective to boldly confront systemic and cultural shame as well. Growing up in South Africa, Sally is no stranger to the shaming force of systematic inequality. Her doctoral research into the artistic practices of marginalized communities in Africa informed her deep understanding of the way society implicitly shames certain groups, particularly people of colour and women. At the same time, Sally’s studies illustrated the power of creative expression and storytelling as tools to unite marginalized peoples and promote inclusion in the broader culture. In the interview, Sally also shares some powerful and vulnerable stories from her own journey through shame and aloneness to ultimately embracing her autonomy, finding her creative voice, and serving as a beacon for the formation of her own authentic community. Every time I listen to this interview I get more and more inspired to be as honest as I can, to tell my story proudly, and to integrate all aspects of my authentic self. Sally does talks (you can find her on Clubhouse), leads workshops and retreats, offers counselling and creative coaching, and is also an artist and author. You can connect with her and learn more about her work on her website. Note: this interview was edited for clarity.

Judgement   In Episode 93, I come clean about the fact that I’m a pretty judgemental person. Of course, we all naturally make judgements all the time, that’s part of how we make decisions and form opinions. But culturally, being “judgemental” has come to mean something like, passing judgement on the decisions and behaviour of others. And for people like me who tend to struggle with boundaries, the line between my decisions and opinions and your decisions and opinions can get kind of blurry. For a long time, shame pressured me to make decisions based on fitting in with everyone else’s decisions, so you can see where this boundary confusion comes from. My judgements are constructed something like this, “Hey, that’s not how we are supposed to act! That’s not how we are supposed to think!” Since my shame breakthrough, it’s been easier to form my own authentic opinions and make my own decisions, but I still have judgements of other people coming up all the time. I’ve started to notice that many of these judgements are just echoes from the past, ideologies left over from my childhood conditioning. I sometimes don’t even agree with them anymore! I also notice that my sense of boundaries has improved such that, even if I do agree with the judgement that comes up about someone, I don’t really care as much about it anymore because… it’s their life! One of my core values is authenticity. The more I can be honest and transparent about what is really going on for me in any given moment, the more pleasant feelings and self-empowerment I tend to experience. This includes being more honest about my judgements of others. It’s a difficult and vulnerable thing to share, but I’ve noticed some surprising benefits. Not only is it more authentic, which can actually lead to even greater connection with the person I’m judging (or at least with myself), but it even seems to deflate the judgements themselves! The judgements are attached to (probably even stimulated by) unpleasant sensations in my body that come up in relation to the person in question. When I voice the judgement to the person I am judging, that unpleasant sensation actually dissipates, and usually takes the judgment with it! This makes it easier for me to connect with the person I’m judging. It’s like my judgements want to be spoken, and once they are, they leave! So, ironically, voicing a judgement doesn’t make it more real, it makes it less real! And by not voicing it, I’m actually trapping that judgement and that unpleasantness in my system, blocking my ability to connect with the person I’m judging. And I think that’s what judgement wants! It wants to block us from connecting with people who make the “wrong” choices, so as to “protect” us from them and from the judgement and social exclusion that might come from others for merely associating with these “judgement-worthy” people.  Talking openly about my judgements allows me to transcend the manipulative power they have over me, which puts me in a more conscious position to decide logically, based on my current values, how best to engage (or not) with the person I was just judging.

Susan Campbell   In Episode 92, I interview clinical psychologist and best-selling author Susan Campbell. I first heard about Susan because of her book Getting Real, which was one of the founding texts in the Authentic Relating (AR) movement (AR has been such a useful practice on my journey of learning to talk about shame, I did an episode about my earliest impressions of AR here). Susan recently released her latest book, From Triggered to Tranquil, which teaches readers how to deal with the emotional reactivity that so often hijacks our rational brains. I think learning how to spot and manage our emotional triggers—the landmines leftover from past trauma—is one of the most important self-awareness and interpersonal toolsets one can master. Susan’s latest book demystifies this complex and powerful force with simplicity and clarity, tackling a variety of diverse triggering situations, from personal, to relational, to group dynamics—highly recommended! In the interview, Susan mentions a call she was about to lead on bridging the gap in the COVID vaccine debate (easily one of the most triggering topics out there right now), you can check out the recording of that call on YouTube here. Susan does coaching, training, and workshops, including free monthly group coaching calls. You can connect with Susan and learn more about her work on her website, her YouTube channel, Twitter, or sign up for her informative newsletter. Note: this interview was edited for interest and clarity.

Nathan Vanderpool   In Episode 91, I interview Nathan Vanderpool. Nathan has a background in psychology, cultural and religious studies, and he did his PhD in sociology. He’s also a singer/songwriter and the author of the Social Arts Handbook.  Nathan recently led me in a process he calls Trauma Mapping, and it was a powerfully transformative experience. Afterwards, I tweeted:  I was just reborn. How’s your day going? — Discomfortable (@discomfrtble) February 4, 2021 In this deep-dive interview, Nathan and I explore the ways in which our sensemaking can get scrambled, often contaminated by old experiences and limiting beliefs from our past. We talk about the way our brains create “reality packages” that essentially hijack the present moment and thrust us into a defensive stance even when there isn’t much of an actual threat present. We also explore how our prefrontal cortex (the rational brain) and limbic system (the emotional brain) can disagree with each other about what is really important to us. In order to address these distortions in our sensemaking, Nathan’s Trauma Mapping practice takes inspiration from Dr. Douglas Tataryn’s Bio-Emotive Framework, new research into memory reconsolidation and Coherence Therapy, and the ancient wisdom of Mantra. This episode takes you through the steps of Trauma Mapping with my own experience as an example. We mapped a recent professional conflict I had back to some much deeper issues and then transformed those old associations into an empowering sense of being reborn. And then to top it all off—in a surprising twist—Nathan and I wrote a song about it! You can connect with Nathan and learn more about him and his work at social-arts.org where you can also check out his Social Arts Handbook. You can follow Nathan on Twitter at @craythan.  Note: this interview was edited for clarity.

Peter Limberg   In Episode 90, I interview Peter Limberg, the steward of The Stoa. Almost a year ago now, on March 21st, 2020, as the pandemic arrived in North America, Peter started an online event space inspired by the Stoa Poikile (“painted porch”) in ancient Athens where Zeno held the philosophical discussions that came to be known as “Stoicism”. Peter’s modern Stoa was a space to explore much more than just Stoicism though, offering a platform for a variety of different thinkers and practices, quickly becoming a popular digital refuge to explore the philosophical issues brought up by the uncertainty of the time. After participating in a few events myself, Peter asked me to co-host a handful of one-off sessions, like Amor Fati, Loving Cringe Meditation, and Narcissistic Spotlight, which led to a regular series I facilitated on the Stoa for nearly a year called Shame Breakthrough Bootcamp.  In this interview, Peter takes us inside the formation of the Stoa and his vision for a space where divergent philosophies can be explored without shame. Peter talks about the “meta” or bird’s eye perspective he uses to try on new and challenging ideas so as to enrich his own perspective, even if those ideas ultimately aren’t his cup of tea. We explore the courage, openness, and acceptance needed to move past our own discomfort in order to raid the philosophical closets of other thinkers.  If you haven’t already participated in The Stoa, I highly recommend checking out some events before the one-year anniversary on March 21st, 2021 where the fate of Peter’s experiment will be unveiled at the Maybe the End of The Stoa Party. You can also follow Peter on Twitter and read about his wild existential journey over the course of The Stoa through his Stoic practice of near-daily journalling.  Note: this interview was edited for clarity.

Michaële Antoine   In Episode 89, I interview Michaële Antoine, creator and founder of Curios Consulting, a learning studio that equips teams and communities to have better conversations. Michaële is a self-described “conversation enthusiast” with a background in intercultural and rhetorical communication, business, and higher ed. Michaële had me as a guest on her Thoughtful Thursdays Instagram series last year and it became clear that our goals are very much aligned. This is from the about section of the Curios website: “While we respect anyone looking for those conversations (you know, the surface level ones), we aim to create brave dialogues, that allow for exploration of the differing, for the purpose of respect & mutual understanding.” Michaële and I discuss the power of curiosity and how it functions as a kind of opposite to shame. We talk about difficult conversations from our own lives as well as the new prevalence of difficult digital conversations in the modern world. We explore the challenging but rewarding terrain of bringing authenticity and vulnerability into the workplace and the need to integrate wellness and equity into our work lives as well. Michaële talks about the importance of learning to separate facts from feelings and the utility of meeting people on the level of universal needs.  You can join the conversation with Michaële and Curios at one of her many community events by following Curios on Instagram where Michaële hosts conversations, interviews, and book clubs. For example, Curios is doing a Sunday Session on Feb 28th to discuss the theme of purpose! Note: this interview was edited for clarity and interest.

Arran Rogerson   In Episode 88, I interview Arran Rogerson, a podcaster, facilitator, and coach whose work has quickly become synonymous with the concept of the shadow. Popularized by the work of Carl Jung, the shadow is a metaphor for the parts of ourselves that we hide from ourselves. The shadow is the realm of our unconscious mind that we can’t or won’t see.  Arran and I discuss his journey into the world of shadow work and then compare and contrast the fascinating connections between shame and shadow. There’s a surprising amount of overlap between his shadow theories and my shame theories, almost like different ways of describing the same thing. Shame seems to be one of the mechanisms that moves material from the conscious realm into the shadow in the first place, and one of the sentries at the entrance to our shadow worlds that can restrict both entry and exit. Arran talks about strategies we can use to see our shadow so that we can integrate that material into our lives in a healthier and more empowering way.  You can listen to more of Arran’s deep, melodic whisper on the podcast The Golden Shadow which he co-hosts with Alyssa Polizzi. He also has a Youtube series called The Torch and you can follow him on Twitter and Instagram as well. If you want to explore your own shadow, Arran and Alyssa facilitate a really cool interactive series at The Stoa every Friday night at 6pm EST called Shadowplay. If you’re interested in delving more into the concept of the shadow in general, you can check out the book Arran mentioned at the end of the episode, Meeting the Shadow by Connie Zweig.  Note: this interview was edited for clarity.

Noah Malcolm   In Episode 87, I interview Toronto-based singer-songwriter Noah Malcolm about his decade-long journey from literally being silenced by shame to releasing his first EP. Noah grew up in Prince Edward Island where he taught himself to play the family piano at a young age and loved nothing more than singing his heart out at church. But his exuberance and creative spirit waned when he discovered he had a dark secret that threatened his very belonging. It’s a classic tale of shame that eventually exploded out of Noah as an adult in the form of his first breakout single, Pray.  Four years later, Noah has released his first EP, On Time, an upbeat and self-aware folk-pop exploration of the creative process itself. The DIY video for his single If Not is currently nominated for a Canadian Independent Music Video Award and you can help support him by voting for his video here. Noah joins me on the podcast to discuss the cathartic experience of finding his voice again, as well as many topics related to shame and being an artist. Exploring themes of authenticity, marketing, originality, and fame, this playful interview dives deep into Noah’s life and work.  You can listen to Noah’s music on Spotify and all of the major streaming platforms or support him directly by purchasing his music on Bandcamp. You can also watch his videos on Youtube or follow his journey on Instagram. Note: this interview was edited for clarity and interest.

Sarah Peyton   In Episode 86, I interview author, speaker, and neuroscience educator Sarah Peyton about the brain science of shame and what she calls “alarmed aloneness”. In this candid interview, Sarah illustrates the incredible neuroplasticity of the human mind with impactful stories from her own life detailing the transformative experiences she has had as both a mother and daughter. We explore topics like intergenerational trauma and disorganized attachment, Nonviolent Communication, the utility of relational language, and the healing power of resonance (a kind of shared empathy). We discuss how language and empathy can actually rewire the brain and tame our primal amygdala. We talk about the soothing power of “self-resonance” and other practices for turning our tumultuous brains into “good homes”. Sarah’s focus on “relational neuroscience” illuminates some of the latest research and thinking around what causes shame and how to deal with it effectively. I had several epiphanies during the recording and editing of this episode and can’t wait to delve even deeper into Sarah’s work! Some of the researchers Sarah mentions in this episode include Daniel J. Siegel, Matthew Lieberman, the author of Social, James A. Cohen of Social Baseline Theory, and Jaak Panksepp.  To learn more about Sarah, watch her videos, try her meditations, or take one of her courses, check out her website and the website for her book, Your Resonant Self. Her second book, Your Resonant Self Workbook comes out in May and can be pre-ordered now. Note: this interview was edited for clarity and interest.

Partisanship   In Episode 85, I look at the recent election in the United States and the political partisanship that seems to be tearing the country in two. The dictionary on my computer defines partisanship as, “prejudice in favour of a particular cause; bias”. Though we often associate partisanship with political allegiance, I think it really is a form of prejudice (for me at very least).  At a recent Racism Anonymous meeting, someone pointed out that it sounded like I had a prejudice against organized religion, and I realized they were right! When the subject of organized religion comes up, an aggressive emotion arises in me that fuels rejection, defence, judgement, and anger. Though I have crafted many convincing logical arguments over the years against organized religion, I realized that the real motivation was actually this unpleasant emotion. I consider that to be a prejudice, when your beliefs are powered by an old emotional association from the past. I’ve noticed that the same is true for right-wing politics. I have an old unpleasant emotional association that comes up and colours my thinking about conservativism, fueling aggressive rejection instead of just neutral disagreement. I suspect much of the United States is caught in similar kinds of political prejudice based on their upbringing, culture, and life experiences. This emotional contamination triggers other biases as well, like confirmation bias and our innate in-group bias. This means that we tend to notice only the evidence that confirms our pre-existing beliefs and then view anyone who disagrees with our “side” as an enemy. These biases give the idea of “the left” and “the right” a powerful sense of reality, even though they are just intersubjective fictions. Our biases make it feel like we can divide people into 2 overly simplistic “parties” and then demonize the other side in a misguided “us” vs “them” mindset. When really, we’re all the same. This episode looks at ways to reframe our thinking so as not to get caught up in our own partisanship.