The Negotiation

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      Marketing a football league in China●      How other EU teams are finding fans in China●      Do foreign clubs have limited time to grow their followings as the Chinese government looks to expand local football culture?●      How different countries grow their sports and how closely China intends to follow those existing strategies●      The future Yao Ming of football in China●      Where the majority of Borussia Dortmund’s marketing spend is going●      Tactics for growing a sports brand in China●      Why China and Germany have such a strong relationship Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Benjamin Wahl, a brand strategy, business, and sports development expert. He is Head of China for the German professional football club Borussia Dortmund. Prior to this, Benjamin led the China strategy for Bayer 04 Leverkusen from 2016 to 2017, establishing a youth football academy in China in the process.Listen in as Benjamin talks about his five-year experience as a sports solution professional working in the China market. He speaks on how his own Borussia Dortmund was able to gain a foothold in the country and the marketing efforts they have been most focused on in order to spread the club’s culture and fanbase.Benjamin also touches on how other EU-based clubs are doing in China by comparison and what makes Germany stand out with regard to its relationship with China compared to those of other European countries.Finally, Benjamin shares tactics that other organizations and clubs can use to grow a sports brand in China and describes Borussia Dortmund’s branding and marketing strategy that he refers to as “The Challenger Approach”. Key Quotes:“When I go to [local football games] I’m always surprised at what a real fan culture they already have. When I speak to fans, I think it’s common that they have two clubs here: the local club attached to a region or a city [...] and a second team in Europe.” “With a team sport like football, and probably even basketball, it takes time—years—to establish the sport and a big base of players.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      Charles’s history doing business with China and his current role at WPIC●      How Charles defines “creativity”●      Maintaining creativity in-house versus outsourcing creativity to KOLs and KOCs●      How brands should go about looking for KOLs or KOCs in order to maximize ROI●      Teaching creativity●      Differences in creative processes between the West and the East●      How brands can stay creatively consistent in different markets●      How foreign brands can cut through the noise in the Chinese market Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Charles Lavoie, who leads and manages WPIC Creative Labs.Prior to joining WPIC in April 2021, Charles had served as the Marketing Director at BIOTWIN, the Director of Strategy and Business Development at PBB Creative, and China advisor to both Can Life Sports and CareerUp. He is also the co-founder of Beijing-based Infina Vodka and is responsible for the growth of the company from the ground-up to distribution across 10 different cities in China, Hong Kong, and the Northwest of Africa.Charles’s career so far has seen him developing brands, design thinking strategies, and advertising campaigns for clients such as Acura, Uber, Daimler, Tencent, Tourism Vancouver, World Bank, as well as the Quebec and Canada Governments.According to Charles, the challenge of the creative professional is to bridge the “gap between invention and commercialization”, which requires innovation, and not necessarily about creating something new but looking instead at the existing brand and their existing resources, and from that fashion an idea that benefits the business by being both profitable and relevant.Listen in as Charles compares the strengths of in-house creative control to those of outsourcing creative to KOLs and KOCs. He also gives his thoughts on how to “teach” creativity to your team, navigating differences in creative processes between the West and the East, and delivering creativity through a consistent brand framework in different markets. Key Quotes:“[Creativity] to me is bringing past or existing concepts or inspirations together to create something new.” “The gap between invention and commercialization is innovation. [...] We can be creative as much as we can, but the big challenge is to be creative and relevant.” “China is way stronger in anything that is technical and the West is stronger in everything that is strategic.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      How Yoann’s work with startups and founders differs from his work with corporate clients●      Clients that Yoann typically works with as a sales trainer●      How B2B selling has historically been done in China compared to today●      The value of WeChat in sales●      General differences between how sales is done in the West versus in the East●      What Yoann has found to be the most difficult lesson for his coaching clients●      How Chinese buyers differ from Western buyers●      How is public speaking perceived in China and is it used as a tool for sales? Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with sales trainer Yoann Delwarde, Founder and CEO of Infinity Growth Ltd, a Shanghai-based firm that offers sales coaching and consulting to a wide range of clients, including multinationals, startups, MBA students, and accelerators and incubators.Yoann is one of twelve Experts in Residence for Chinaccelerator and a strategic advisor for allrites, Atiom, and GloCoach. He is also a lecturer on sales management and entrepreneurship at Shanghai Jiao Tong University in Shanghai as well as Emlyon business school in Écully, France.Infinity Growth aims to bridge the Western and Chinese mindsets toward entrepreneurship to ensure that they maximize their clients’ sales capabilities. Their key indicator of success is in the fact that they primarily attract their clients via word-of-mouth.Because “it’s so easy to lose your reputation in China”, Infinity Growth looks at their increasing clientele as a sign that their sales training approach is resonating with and leading to great results among the local entrepreneurs and business professionals they work with.Yoann shares what distinguishes sales in China compared to America and Western Europe, including differences in buyer behavior, the role of public speaking in the business world, and how eCommerce and social media are used differently in the East and the West. Key Quotes:“If there’s one thing I came to understand in China, it’s to always under-promise and over-deliver. [...] It’s so easy to lose your reputation in China, it’s insane.” “If I take the angle of B2B sales, I think the main difference [between how sales are done in the West versus in the East] is around trust. In Europe, and even in the U.S., first, you make business, then you become friends. [...] In China, first you become friends, then you make business.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      The rise in ice hockey’s popularity in China over the past decade●      Does the lack of infrastructure growth for hockey in China limit how much interest the sport receives?●      How Can Life lets the Chinese youth experience the “hockey culture” that Canadians are so familiar with●      Why has the development of hockey been emphasized in China lately?●      How is China developing players to be potentially drafted into the NHL?●      What is the extent of the NHL’s involvement in the growth of hockey in China?●      Which famous hockey players have the most sought-after jerseys in China? Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Kevin Hui, a serial entrepreneur and marketer who has worked across the sports, film, education, and capital markets industries with a focus on early-stage businesses.Kevin is the current President of Beijing-based Can Life Sports, the leading company in developing and growing ice hockey in China launched in 2011. He is also the Co-Founder of Northern Lights Media, which provides production and post-production services as well as Chinese localization of foreign content.Kevin attributes the rise of hockey’s popularity in China to the growth of the ex-pat community in the country over the last decade. However, the 2022 Winter Olympics is what has truly skyrocketed interest in the sport. Also, in 2015, the same year the announcement was made that Beijing would host the Winter Olympics, Andong "Misha" Song became the first Chinese-born hockey player to be drafted into the NHL.Since the spike in interest in hockey in 2015, interest has slowly receded. “Hopefully what we’re doing here [at Can Life] and what the Olympics is going to do for the industry will allow it to steadily grow,” says Kevin.The lack of infrastructure growth in China is a huge barrier to entry for those looking to get into ice hockey. In spite of this, Kevin believes that the key to growing the sport in China is by exposing the youth to the same “hockey culture” that he and many other Canadians are so familiar with. The key to this, he says, is the fun factor. “When you get to experience fun, that’s just something that you don’t forget.” Key Quotes:“At Can Life, we promote the competition but we focus more on the fun, the friendship, and the hockey culture that we grew up experiencing in Canada.” “[Growing hockey in China] is about spending five to ten years working together, failing, succeeding, failing again, and creating their own system that’s adapted to the international way of operating but creating it for the local market.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      How translation technology has evolved over the past 20 years●      The difference between translation and interpretation●      How to train interpreters●      Why translation and localization of content is so important in China and Japan●      What to look for when hiring a translator●      Examples of localization gone wrong and how to make amends if this happens to you●      Understanding cultural and consumer nuances when translating in a foreign market Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with language translation expert Wendy MacKenzie Pease. For almost two decades, she has been the owner and President of Rapport International, which provides high-quality foreign language translation and interpretation services for businesses.She is the author of The Language of Global Marketing: Translate Your Domestic Strategies Into International Sales and Profits (2021).What differentiates Rapport from other translation services or technologies is the company’s focus on culturally adaptive marketing copy, which currently cannot be replicated by a computer. While Rapport does not use machine translation, it does use translation memory. This allows translators to record phrases or descriptions used over and over again by a particular company. Translation memory helps maintain message consistency across marketing campaigns.According to Wendy, “Translation is written. Interpretation is spoken.” Each activity is done by professionals of different aptitudes: Translators are those who love writing and research while interpreters are naturally empathetic communicators.Human translation and localization are so important for companies doing business in China simply because of their enormous presence in international commerce. As touched on above, today’s machine translation technologies are too inefficient and sometimes outright cumbersome to rely on for such a vital step in a business’s marketing efforts.For foreign brands looking to translate and localize in China—or any country, for that matter—the first step is to have a detailed long-term corporate strategy, which will inform their specific marketing strategy. Finally, this leads to the creation of the company’s global, or multilingual, marketing strategy. All three of these strategies need to be clearly defined and aligned before a company enters a new market. Key Quotes:“Translation is written. Interpretation is spoken.” “Be careful who you’re picking to do your translation. Even though your business partners may speak English well, they may not understand it enough to do the translation. [...] Make sure that you’re getting a professional who’s a trained translator.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      The evolution of China’s outbound foreign direct investment●      Is China’s outbound FDI being used primarily for political or economic reasons?●      Where outbound FDI is headed in the next five years●      Differences between China’s bilateral and multilateral free trade agreements●      How partner nations have changed their approach to China over the years●      The future of the Belt and Road Initiative●      How U.S-China relations will evolve under the Biden administration●      Where opportunities for the U.S. to collaborate with China lie Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Professor Min Ye, an author and an Associate Professor of International Relations at the Frederick S. Pardee School of Global Studies at Boston University. Her expertise includes Chinese political economy, China and India comparison, East Asian international relations, and globalization with focuses on transnational immigration and foreign investment.Min Ye gives a broad overview of how globalization, state capitalism, and outbound foreign direct investment have evolved in China in the last few decades. She describes China as a “latecomer economy in Asia”. When the country opened itself to doing business internationally in the late 1970s, it embraced outbound FDI because it had to fast-track its technology and manufacturing sectors and make exports earn foreign exchange as quickly as possible.Due to the COVID-19 crisis, alongside shaky U.S.-China relations, outbound FDI may see a change in strategy to adapt to the reorganization of global supply chains. Also, there will be a greater focus placed on China’s digital, health, and ecological sectors.With regard to free trade agreements of any kind, Min Ye explains that China will always take the most pragmatic approach that is conducive toward globalization. “It depends,” she says, “on China’s internal readiness and the external environment.”Asked about the future of the BRI, Min Ye says that, after eight years of laying the foundation for this massive global infrastructure development strategy—and not to mention on the heels of the pandemic—China is now much clearer on what they can and cannot accomplish. She expects “a sharper focus and a clearer context” going forward, including a more risk-conscious strategy, a willingness to cooperate more amiably with recipient governments, less of a need to “create political and social impact”, and a greater focus on digital infrastructure—which is to be the BRI’s core.Finally, Min Ye believes that, with a less hostile approach, the U.S. will be able to better cooperate with China under the Biden administration, especially today when the two countries are sharing pressing concerns around public health, climate, business, and data security. Key Quotes:“Because I understand that domestic politics in Asia typically shape their regional economic policies, I created this framework called ‘Critical Juncture’: When a crisis occurs, domestic leadership and policy networks interact across countries and that leads to new institution-building in the region.” “[With regard to bilateral and multilateral free trade agreements,] Chinese elite thinking and policy establishments do have strong convictions toward globalization. But their perspective on globalization is very pragmatic, so it doesn’t really prioritize one way or another. [...] It depends on China’s internal readiness and the external environment.” “In dealings with China, style matters hugely. I feel like Americans suddenly forgot that it’s about creating relationships when you work with China.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      What are modular buildings and why are they generally stronger than regular buildings?●      Stack Modular’s typical customer●      How developed is the modular housing industry in China?●      The limitations of modular housing and how they are overcome●      Shipping modular buildings across the ocean and keeping them intact●      3D printing and home manufacturing●      Why Stack Modular has no local customers in China●      How COVID-19 has affected Stack Modular’s business operations inside China and sales outside of China●      How Jim, a foreigner, is able to manage a business with so many moving parts in China●      What the future holds for Stack Modular Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Jim Dunn, President at Stack Modular, a Vancouver-based construction company that manufactures modular buildings for residential, hospitality, commercial, and resource sectors. He is also the President of Dunn Global, Ltd., a Shanghai-based procurement firm now considered the leader in Chinese manufactured housing exported to North America.From his native Canada to Los Angeles to Africa to China, Jim’s passion for the building world brought him globe-trotting opportunities through the years. Today, Jim splits his time between China and North America pushing Stack Modular into exciting new modular fields, from resource housing to hotels to office spaces.The modular housing industry in China has grown exponentially in the last several years, surpassing even the industries of the West. This came after a realization that buildings can be built faster, cheaper, and stronger, and that these can be produced at scale.Jim goes on to talk about the unique budgetary, logistical, and labour-related challenges that come with the territory for Stack Modular, why the construction industry has yet to undergo major innovations in 2021, and how the pandemic has impacted Stack Modular’s business operations both inside and outside China. Key Quotes:“Over the last half a dozen years, China says to itself, ‘Wow, you can build a building faster, cheaper, and stronger in a factory environment. They saw something that made sense and they acted on it. Here in Canada, we’re slow to act.” “People have reinvented every industry that you and I use every day, whether it’s communication, technologies, textiles, or agriculture. Everything’s been reinvented, except construction. Construction is the low-hanging fruit.” “If you can’t hire quality people, passionate people, loyal people, your business will never take off, much less in China.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      A general overview of the cosmetics market in China●      The most popular beauty products in China compared to the rest of the world●      The popularity of live streaming in the beauty space●      A primer on Key Opinion Consumers (KOCs)●      How consumer behaviors in China differ from those in the West in the cosmetics market●      Hero products by the largest cosmetics brands in China●      Why there are significantly more male consumers for beauty products in China than in the West●      Advice for cosmetics brands looking to enter China●      Cutting-edge marketing tactics particular to China●      What up-and-coming companies are doing to compete with large, even global, brands●      How COVID-19 has affected the Chinese cosmetics industry●      L'Oréal’s China strategy Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Chloé Goncalves, Asia E-Commerce Manager at L'Oréal. Previously, she served at Alibaba as a Digital Marketing Manager, working up to the role of International Business Development Manager for Tmall Global before leaving the company in January 2021 to work with L'Oréal.The cosmetics market has grown exponentially for the past several years, and today is the second-largest in the world after the U.S, with an estimated revenue of $22 billion—an amount that is expected to triple by 2024. 25% of sales take place via E-Commerce, and this number has been rising faster than ever thanks to COVID-19.Chinese women generally have a more extensive skincare routine than those in the West. Skin whitening products are also a staple in the market. Also, because of the high pollution problem alongside high-stress lifestyles, Chinese consumers tend to seek products that address specific problems, including blemish, wrinkle, and acne removers. Finally, there has been a rise in the popularity of male grooming, which includes makeup, in China.Live streaming is hugely popular in the beauty industry in China. The country is the largest live streaming industry in the world today, with the pre-COVID number of over 500 million live streamers having no doubt skyrocketed in the past year.Chloe mentions that Chinese consumers use E-Commerce not only to save time but to spend time. That is, even without the intention of buying anything, they visit platforms like Taobao or Tmall to watch live streams or read blogs not just from Key Opinion Leaders (KOLs) but, even more so, from Key Opinion Consumers (KOCs). There are now more than 100 apps and platforms in China that offer live streaming features.For foreign brands looking to enter the Chinese cosmetics market, Chloé’s first tip is to find great local partners to take care of operations, marketing, and logistics. Her next piece of advice is to home in on ten key, hero products that would best fit China’s particular market instead of bringing in its entire suite. Her final tip is to invest in a marketing strategy that will help the foreign brand cut through the noise that is made up of countless existing brands as well as countless existing E-Commerce and content creation platforms. Key Quotes:“What’s really interesting in China is that consumers use E-Commerce not to save time, as we would do in the West, but to spend time. So, even though they don’t want to buy anything, they would connect on Taobao and Tmall to watch live streams and videos and read blogs and articles.” “[For brands looking to enter China,] the first tip would be to find the right partner; especially if you’re a small brand and don’t know the market well, you really need to have a local partner that will help you do all the operations, the marketing, the logistics, etc.” “China is a long-term journey. In terms of investment, we usually advise brands to invest 20-30% of their annual sales target in marketing to make sure that they can achieve their sales forecast and sales goals.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      Factors that developed Mark’s interest in doing business with China●      Building relationships with Xinhua News Agency and Tencent●      The demographics of the ski industry in China and why locals prefer to ski abroad●      Promoting the 2022 Winter Olympics in Beijing and local winter sports in general●      Ski locations in China●      The economic drivers behind the development of ski hills●      Why many resorts in China have not been able to develop year-round destinations●      What about ski TV appeals to Chinese audiences●      The difference between programming for a Chinese audience and a Canadian audience●      Emerging winter sports in China●      What the future holds for ski TV in China Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Mark Kristofic, Managing Partner at S-Media, a television, print and digital production company that provides advertising, marketing, and production in Canada and China. S-Media also owns Snowsports Media, which includes a ski travel show featuring different destinations around the world. Mark is also partnered with the nonprofit events management company, World Snowsports Events Group.Because skiing worldwide had been relatively flat in terms of growth, Mark identified China as an emerging sports market. His interest in expanding into the market only grew with the announcement of the 2022 Winter Olympics in Beijing, where sports would be a state-sponsored initiative.In October 2017, S-Media began talks with Xinhua News Agency. They had their first meeting in Beijing that December and, only a month later in January 2018, began filming around China, their partnership official.Asked how S-Media was able to build a relationship with Xinhua, Mark says that there were two keys to their success. For one, “they actually wanted the Western validation of the ski industry.” Secondly, they focused their messaging on the two elements that Xinhua wanted to highlight: regional culture (depending on where they were filming) and how the development of snow sports in China led toward their goal of hosting a successful Olympics.S-Media has since partnered with Tencent as well. Mark explains how his company, working alongside Xinhua and Tencent, programs for a Chinese audience compared to a Canadian one. He also goes on to speak on winter sports in China in general, and how the upcoming Olympics is contributing to the industry’s growth around the country.  Key Quotes:“Once we had that formula where we knew we needed to talk about the ski area, their preparedness for the Olympics, and the culture, then it became quite simple to produce the product [for Xinhua].” “The content that we built for Xinhua was really information-driven and coming from the mouth of the government. We did have a massive number of views, but whether that was appealing to the audience or not, we don’t really know.” “What really resonates with the Chinese viewers from an entertainment standpoint is having influencers and celebrities involved.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      The explosion of fitness culture in Asia●      Mainland China’s consumer sporting goods market●      Columbia’s brand strategy for the Chinese market●      Differences between the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean sports apparel markets●      How the 2008 Beijing Olympics impacted the country’s sports apparel market●      Establishing a digital and physical presence as a new sports brand in China●      Do big-box stores for sports apparel exist in China, or are they independently managed?●      The current state of Japan’s sports apparel market●      How Japan’s work culture influences shopping habits Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Bill Tung, who currently works as Managing Director at Peaks Consulting. Bill discusses the rise of the sports apparel world in China, Japan, and Korea, which he experienced firsthand as Vice President of International Sales and Market Expansion at Columbia Sportswear.Bill recalls, upon joining Columbia in 2003, that China was “virgin territory” for the brand. Working with their distributor in Hong Kong, they explored potential strategies to introduce their products into the Chinese market. While Columbia was eventually able to foray into the country—and gradually built brand recognition with in-store marketing—it turned out to be a huge challenge because very few Chinese engaged in outdoor activities such as skiing, snowboarding, camping, or trail running.Indeed, one of the more unique elements of the sports apparel market in China is that fashion, rather than function, is the biggest selling point for most consumers. Compared to Japan or Korea where people buy these products for the sport or to stay warm, Chinese consumers of sports apparel tend to value style over technology. Columbia’s success in all three markets is owed to the company’s “flexibility and foresight to localize design” while keeping “the DNA and the history of the brand intact.”New brands looking to enter a foreign market need a multipronged approach going in, and it starts with everyone in the organization, from the C-suite to the rank and file, embodying that global mindset. Marketing and product design has to be specifically tailored to the unique culture of the country in question.With regard to China, the most important part of any marketing strategy is building brand awareness through local eCommerce and social media platforms. But the company has to have a physical presence as well because part of the experience for the consumer is feeling the product. Key Quotes:“For Columbia, it was very much dictated on the features, advantage, and benefits of the product to justify those price points. In China, anybody could buy a down jacket, but why would they buy your products?” “For a new brand that’s looking to go into China, whether you’re a sporting leisure brand or a luxury brand, it’s all about getting online.” “Ignore the concept of Japanese uniqueness at your peril.” “If you can satisfy Japanese consumers’ expectations about quality, you have the rest of the world covered.”