The Negotiation

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      All about the highest-rated nationally syndicated show, Laowai Kandian●      What is Peking Opera●      The world of philanthropy in China●      Being a board member of the China Pacific Construction Group●      The eating and drinking culture of doing business in China Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we continue our conversation with Elyse Ribbons, CEO and Founder at GeiLi Giving, which has built a WeChat app connecting charities to Chinese netizens through engaging challenges to encourage giving.She is also the Founder of Cheeky Monkey Theater and host of the nationally syndicated news-talk show Laowai Kandian, the success of which she goes into in today’s conversation.The show invites people of different nationalities to come together and speak candidly about difficult topics—a practice that Elyse notes may just be that elusive key to achieving world peace.“At the end of those conversations,” she says, “you can always find that human element. Even if you agree to disagree about little details, you can always agree on the important basics.”Elyse then describes her experience in the Peking opera scene, describing the art form as “the crystallization of so many Chinese values: aesthetic, artistic, moral”. She also speaks on an interesting connection between the classic 14th century historical novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms by Luo Guanzhong, and the culture of business in China.Finally, Elyse describes the world of philanthropy in China as well as the nature of business unique to the country, drawing from her own experience as a former board member of the China Pacific Construction Group. Key Quotes:“[Peking Opera] is the crystallization of so many Chinese values: aesthetic, artistic, moral.” “When you have a passion for something, you study it, you learn it, and you hold it much more dearly than people who just sort of passively have to accept it. They didn’t choose to learn Chinese; they had to. I choose, on a daily basis, to continue learning Chinese.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      What it takes to become truly fluent in another language●      All about Cheeky Monkey Theater and Star Theatre●      Chinese versus Western cinema●      The speed of Chinese business as both a blessing and a curse Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Elyse Ribbons, a startup founder, radio show host, actor, and writer in China, who is also incredibly fluent in Mandarin. She is the Founder of Cheeky Monkey Theater and host of the nationally syndicated news-talk show Laowai Kandian. She kicks off the conversation by talking about what drew her to China all the way back in 2001 and how she was able to achieve an impressive level of fluency in Mandarin. Aside from her work in theatre, Elyse has also been cast in a number of Chinese films. All of this gives her a unique perspective on the local entertainment industry that most foreigners never get a chance to see.She speaks on her various opportunities to work in the Chinese movie industry and along the way touches on how the culture of speed in China’s business world influences even the entertainment sphere. Key Quotes:“There are so few people, especially in China, who do business and art—especially theatre art. Broadway is a business. Broadway is not pure art; so, you have to be able to understand business to do good shows.” “This culture of going by the seat of your pants is a benefit and a curse. It’s one of the reasons Chinese startups actually can do so well with the changing environment around them—because there are no plans. So, you’re pivoting constantly, because you’re dealing with whatever is directly in front of you.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      Liam’s work in Public Affairs and Communications at WPIC●      Becoming involved with the Olympics●      Looking back at the Beijing Olympics●      The level of interest of the Chinese population in the Olympic games●      The stars of the Olympics●      The state of Chinese hockey post-Olympics●      Lesser-known notable news stories in China that did not make the headlines●      The lasting impact of the Olympics on winter sports in China Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Liam Mather, Head of Public Affairs and Communications at WPIC Marketing + Technologies. Reporting to the Chief Marketing Officer, Liam helps guide WPIC's public and government affairs, strategic communications, media engagement, corporate branding, and sales enablement.Liam previously worked in BCW's Corporate and Public Affairs practice in Beijing, where he helped clients manage reputations, respond to crises, and navigate policy issues.He was a 2020 Fellow of the American Chamber of Commerce in China’s Leadership Development Program. He has a Bachelor's degree in Honours History from McGill University, where he focused on international Cold War history and served as Chair of Debates for the debating union.Liam’s work at WPIC is focused on telling “the story of the enormous opportunity that exists in China for foreign brands,” and educating these brands on how working with WPIC is the best way for them to tap into this opportunity.Following his recent role as a spotter for the hockey program at the 2022 Beijing Olympics, Liam left with a very positive impression of the planning and execution of the whole event. Calling it “an enormously impressive organizational feat,” Liam highlights the management’s success at keeping COVID at bay, particularly via the massive quarantine bubble that was able to hold 70,000 people, including 5000 athletes, at the peak of the event.Hockey—and winter sports in general—has a bright future in China. The numbers of ice rinks and players have exploded in the last five years: from 200 to 900 rinks, and from 1000 to 13,000 players, both since 2015. Those numbers will only continue to climb, especially in the aftermath of the Olympics. Key Quotes:“I’m trying to tell the story of the enormous opportunity that exists in China for foreign brands. Part of that story is how working with WPIC is the best way for brands to tap into this opportunity.” “In terms of the state of hockey in China, before the Olympics, we saw very significant growth in hockey participation and hockey infrastructure. In 2015, the year Beijing won the game’s bid, there were 200 ice hockey rinks. Now there are 900, which is a pretty massive increase. That actually makes China one of the top countries in the world for the number of ice rinks. Just five years ago, there were about 1000 players in China, according to the IIHF; but, now there are 13,000.” “I think we’re going to see China in the future as being a strong winter sports nation just like it’s been such a strong country in the summer games.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      Tmall’s International Women's Day●      The most sought-after products among women in 2022●      Trends in the food & beverage space●      Why there is more demand for sleep supplements●      Health and wellness trends in the West that might make it to China very soon●      UK and Nordic products that have captured the attention of Chinese consumers●      What Gen-Z female consumers look for compared with their older counterparts●      Differences between consumers across different geographies in China Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Zarina Kanji. Based in London, she is the Head of Business Development for Health & Wellness and Food & Beverage Brands at Alibaba. She previously served as VP of Global Fashion Brand Partnerships at Lazada in Singapore.Zarina speaks with us about Tmall’s upcoming International Women’s Day—a key event tied to the company’s Super Brand Day—on March 8, 2022. It has proven in previous years to be the third-largest shopping festival in the nation, behind 11.11 and 6.18, and is a unique opportunity for brands to engage with women across China.From influencer parties to limited edition product launches, International Women’s Day, or “Queen Day” as it is sometimes called, is a celebration of all things female.The five major trends predicted for this International Women’s Day are inner beauty, beauty tech, probiotics (gut health), sleep supplementation (which include the phenomenon of 朋克养生 or pengke yangsheng, also known as “punk health”), and sportswear.With regards to food & beverage, Zarina notes that China is rapidly becoming the world’s largest market for healthy eating, and especially healthy snacking. This trend, adopted primarily by millennials and Gen-Z, was largely spurred on by the COVID-19 pandemic. More than 30 million consumers purchased healthy food on Tmall global alone in 2020, a 30% rise from the previous year. Alibaba saw a 56% rise in healthy on-the-go foods, which include sesame balls, goji berry beverages, and meal replacement shakes. Zarina sees plant-based consumables as an upcoming trend in the near future.She also says that there is a  growing demand for health and wellness products in the UK and Nordic countries thanks to the quality of ingredients typically used in these items.Finally, Zarina discusses the importance of catering to the demands of younger female consumers as a Chinese brand. With Tmall Global alone, around 70% of consumers are female. 85% are 39, and 59% of those consumers are under 30. Key Quotes:“The health and wellness industry is estimated to grow by 19% from 2020 to 2025—up to $145 billion. Much of this will cater towards China’s 685 million women.” “In China, what you put in and on your body absolutely matters.” “China is rapidly becoming the world’s largest market for healthy eating, and notably healthy snacking is what we talk about a lot.” “It’s really important that brands are looking towards the demands of Gen-Z, millennial, female consumers in China. If we take Tmall Global alone, around 70% of our consumers are female. 85% of our consumers are under 39, and 59% of those consumers are under 30.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      The Shanghai/Beijing rivalry●      Companies that are finding success in China●      The nature of legal risk in China versus North America●      How Chinese law develop into its current framework●      Data privacy considerations●      China’s corporate laws●      Common mistakes foreign companies make in negotiating and drafting contracts with Chinese companies Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Art Dicker, Director at R&P China Lawyers, a boutique PRC law firm that supports international business in China. He is also Director at Acclime China, which offers a complete suite of premium accounting & tax compliance services in China.Art has spent the last 14 years working in China to advise technology, manufacturing, and consumer companies on structuring their investments and managing legal risk in their operations. He has a deep understanding of the practical difficulties and cultural gaps faced by international headquarters in managing their legal risk in China, having served as Asia Pacific General Counsel at Cadence Design Systems for 6 years prior to R&P.Art speaks with us about the differences he has encountered between working in Shanghai and working in Beijing. He refers to Beijing as “the real China” while Shanghai is more of a global city, akin to New York. Shanghai is also the location of choice that many multinationals choose to establish their base in, which means more opportunity.China has a reputation of being a very difficult country to penetrate as a foreign tech company, particularly due to its complex legal environment. Art talks about the types of businesses that succeed in the country. LinkedIn, for one, has become a mainstay in the China tech ecosystem. He also mentions that foreign enterprise SaaS companies, while often flying under the radar, have been an extremely successful category of business in China simply because they are providing products and services that are not yet widely available locally.He also explains why foreign companies do not need to fear the complex and often nebulous framework that makes up China’s corporate laws. He says that there is no need to have the “perfect” contract ready upon entering the country to do business with Chinese partners.In fact, Art says that “in China, the contract is not worth more than the paper it’s written on.” Further, a contract means nothing if the foreign company has no legal representatives or local operators on the ground. Key Quotes:“At the end of the day, you have to take risks, and you have to take them eyes wide open. It’s a big market. If you try to cover every risk, you can’t do business—here or anywhere—for that matter. There is more risk here, but you just have to accept it and cover your bases as best as you can.” “What we’re trying to give clients is a story. Nobody can perfectly comply with these laws because they’re so vague. So, what you’re trying to do is to come up with a story where you have done, as best as possible, to comply with the law, as it’s written, and as you understand it.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      How the last 18 months changed the economy forever●      How things have changed in Kimberly’s line of work in China●      What happened to the global supply chain and its impact on the Chinese economy●      Moving forward in 2022 and beyond●      Maintaining business relationships in China●      How the business landscape in the region has changed overall●      How the B2B buying process has evolved throughout COVID Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Kimberly Kirkendall, founder and President at International Resource Development.We recently had Kimberly on the show in September 2020 to discuss a myriad of topics, including the art of negotiation, building relationships, and managing suppliers, as well as interpreting and navigating written procedures and policy documents. She sits down with us almost 18 months later to speak on what’s changed since that last conversation.In a nutshell, she believes that nobody should count on any semblance of the “old normal” rearing its head until at least 2024. From drastic shifts in the supply chain to the now-dead culture of on-demand travel to continued logistical issues and labor shortages, the many challenges of the new normal are here to stay for a long time.With regards to the many changes in the global supply chain over the past two years, Kimberly says that China has effectively been scrambling to stay ahead of an ongoing chain reaction. It has been particularly damaging for manufacturers who for a couple of decades had been relying on just-in-time inventory and lean supply chain and logistics.Today, building and maintaining relationships in China has become even more important than it already was prior to COVID. “You have to have trust on both sides,” stresses Kimberly. “You have to trust that they have your best interests at heart, and it’s harder to do when you can’t be face-to-face.” Partners should be mindful in their communication, taking care to feed the personal side of the relationship instead of being all business.Overall, Kimberly believes that the new normal is here to stay. Regionalization and decentralization are not going away. Geo-political tensions and the rise of hierarchical government structures will continue to develop. Concerning international trade, business, and labor, Kimberly simply says, “I don’t see us going back to where we were. I just don’t.” Key Quotes:“Companies that thought they could triage their supply chain problems, and that it was going to be six months of hiccups and they would go back to normal, that obviously hasn’t been the case. So, more and more companies are realizing that there is a new normal.” “Across Democrats and Republicans and economic divisions, the one thing that unites people in the United States right now is the threat of China. We need to have the ability to have a conversation about that, where you can actually influence somebody that what they’re reading is not true and is not all bad. It’s crazy how divisive it's gotten.” “You have to have trust on both sides. You have to trust that they have your best interests at heart—that they’re acting as a good distributor, that they’re acting as a good supplier on your behalf. And they have to trust that you’re a good customer. And it’s harder to do when you can’t be face-to-face.” “You really need to understand your market in China and how your products are used. It’s critical. [...] For foreign brands going into China, you really have to challenge your own bias and expectations, and how you judge and value what the customer—whether it’s a business or a consumer—thinks about your business, because they may have a completely different perspective in the use of it or a different value system around what makes it work.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      The main thesis of The Politics of the Asia-Pacific●      The biggest evolutions in the Asia-Pacific over the last 15 years●      Relationships between countries in the Asia-Pacific●      Major non-governmental actors in the Asia-Pacific region●      How average citizens regard tensions in the region●      How the pandemic impacted politics in the region●      Often overlooked factors by the West concerning politics in the Asia-Pacific region Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Mark Williams, Chair of Political Studies at Vancouver Island University. He is the editor of The Politics of the Asia-Pacific: Triumphs, Challenges, and Threats, published by the University of Toronto Press. He previously authored a book on the politics of Indonesia titled Indonesia, Islam, and the International Political Economy: Clash or Cooperation?.Says Mark: “My road to China is through this broader prism of the politics of the Asia-Pacific.”In Politics of the Asia-Pacific, Mark discusses the so-called “East-Asian Miracle” as it was referred to by the World Bank in a 1993 publication. In that publication, it is said that the economic success of the Asia-Pacific had a 1 in 10,000 chance of occurring.This success did not come about by chance, of course; it’s by design, thanks to public officials working with government bureaucracies as well as heads of major industries to coordinate what is sometimes called a “developmental state model” for the region. This way, the government channels investment into specific industries to try to find and maximize comparative advantages rather than just leaving it entirely to market forces.Mark notes that world order is a “nebulous” concept influenced by a number of different factors such as questions of legitimacy. But certainly, one pillar of world order is the distribution of power in the international system, and that distribution of power has shifted considerably over the past decade.The dynamic between the different countries within the Asia-Pacific is characterized by “a thin degree of institutionalization”, or the delicate balance between the supreme sovereign authority of the state and the “pooling” of the sovereignty of every state for the purposes of maintaining a rules-based international order.With this in mind, China looms over the rest of the countries in the region. Mark dissects the various moving parts that contribute to tensions within the Asia-Pacific and what Western observers need to consider when discussing these tensions. He touches on the question of why the Western conception of liberal democracy may be largely incompatible in Asia, and how ASEAN can serve as a dialogue partner to find a shared purpose between every nation in the region. Key Quotes:“Back in 1993, in this World Bank publication called ‘The East-Asian Miracle’, it said that, if it was random chance, the economic success of the Asia-Pacific would have had a 1 in 10,000 chance of occurring.” “By 2050, the Chinese economy will probably be about 150% the size of the United States. This is just an unprecedented transformation and redistribution of power in the international system.” “The rise of China, and the uncertainties and anxieties that it provokes, is something that reverberates across Southeast Asia as well as Japan and South Korea.” “This is going to be the approach to working with China: Every country in the region really needs to be careful about its bilateral relations. It needs to look for these multilateral relationships where possible, and that’s not easy to do.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      The dynamic between heritage brands and startups●      How consumption patterns for Chinese consumers change when purchasing abroad versus within China●      Comparing travelling Chinese consumers with travelling Western consumers●      Whether most big beauty brands need to have a dedicated travelling consumer program●      How COVID-19 has changed beauty brands and their marketing●      How the pandemic impacted retail●      Considerations regarding KOLs and KOCs●      How to market hero products versus new products●      All about VIPKid●      Addressing the “pressure cooker” environment around academic expectations Chinese parents have of their children●      Comparing the American and the Chinese school systems with regards to setting students up for success in the workforce Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Karen Raghavan, a Brand and Business Development Consultant and Growth Advisor to both heritage beauty brands and startups. She is also the Vice President of Brand Development at natural ingredient company Purissima.Karen is a member of Chief, a private network built to drive more women into positions of power and keep them there.Years ago, it was incredibly difficult for a new company to gain traction in China. Observing this, Karen set out to discover what captures the minds of Chinese consumers.She found that consumers travelled to neighboring countries such as Japan and Korea to take advantage of price differentials, while at the same time introducing new brands to friends and family back home. She also discovered that younger Chinese consumers tended to travel abroad individually while older generations tended to do so in groups.Today, eCommerce has become an indispensable avenue for the majority of brands. It is important for a company to hone their brand messaging and create compelling content that helps them stand out and attract their ideal consumer amid a sea of countless brands competing within the attention economy.Further, the barrier to entry has now been lowered, again thanks to the ease of access to eCommerce solutions. What remains to be seen is whether all of these new brands launched during the pandemic will be able to scale moving forward.Finally, Karen speaks on the “pressure cooker” environment around academic expectations Chinese parents traditionally have of their children. She also gives her thoughts on how well the American and Chinese educational systems prepare students for success in the workforce. Key Quotes:“The Chinese have a very intentional purchasing behavior, where they will research the brands at length, research the products at length, research the pricing at length, then create a list per location, per destination, and even do a group buy.” “I don’t think there needs to be a specific Chinese traveller program anymore. I believe that a lot of brands have gotten way more educated over the last few years on the China market and the Chinese consumer.” “We’re still human beings at the end of the day; so, having somebody talk me through a compelling brand story or demonstrating how a product actually could solve some of my skin problems or makeup needs—it’s hard to compare that with an Instagram ad or even somebody showing me how to do it on TikTok.” “Unless there is a structural change in how children and students enter university, that pressure cooker environment will remain.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      About Relay Video●      The typical dynamics between creative agencies and their Chinese clients●      How Relay aims to “create China’s first truly global brand”●      How roadshow videos become an IPO marketing tool for companies●      Monetizing your YouTube channel as a China vlogger in 2022●      About Jim’s upcoming app, Relay.club Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Jim Fields, Founder and CEO of Relay Video, a Beijing-based creative marketing agency that specializes in creating stunning pieces of video content, both for disruptive startup businesses and large technology brands.Established in 2016, Relay Video was built on the belief that Chinese brands are the brands of the future. Relay’s mission, therefore, is to make films that tell the stories of these brands to a global audience.Jim is also a marketing consultant for the Chinese venture capital investment fund 10Fund and a mentor at Chinaccelerator.Asked about Relay’s unique thrust as a creative marketing agency in China, Jim explains that “the rush to iterate” that the market is known for comes at the expense of the brand story. “Each story is different,” says Jim. “But, the key thing is clarifying the narrative and then using that clarified narrative in a visual format that makes the company’s mission make sense to viewers.”Further, the goal is to create videos that those who do not live in China can relate to, not just on a rational level, but on an emotional one, too. To this end, Relay makes sure “to visualize not just the company but the actual landscape of China” in its films.Jim also talks about his YouTube channel, GRTR, and his experience so far as an American China vlogger in 2022. Key Quotes:“You’re starting to see brands in China that have products which are either at the same level or perhaps even surpass their counterparts in other markets. The interesting part about it is, in China, a lot of the founders of these companies are STEM graduates who know a lot about engineering and how to create a product; but, they might not know about the soft skills—storytelling, communications, PR, marketing. Especially when these companies take that step onto the global stage, many of them are lacking marketing collateral and materials that are going to tell that story—particularly in English—to a global audience.” “For a lot of folks who live outside of China, China is a complete unknown. So, when you think about film, we really have to find a way to visualize not just the company but the actual landscape of China—whether it’s things like the ease of delivery that takes place in Chinese cities or the ubiquity of mobile payments or the fact that most folks are interacting primarily with technology products on mobile as opposed to via desktop. So, we have to really find a way to encapsulate the entire landscape of China in 2022 via these films and do it in a way that someone who lives in a Western market who has never stepped foot in China can actually understand.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:●      China’s hockey culture versus that of America●      How China’s youth is typically introduced to hockey●      Hockey leagues and training programs available for adults in China●      Active recreational rinks in China●      A geographical layout of hockey in China●      The business of sports development in China from a Westerner’s point of view●      Chinese parents’ motivation for getting their kids involved in hockey●      Chinese hockey referees●      Hockey fans in China●      Professional hockey in China Episode Summary:Today on The Negotiation, we talk with international hockey consultant Mark Simon. He has spent 15 years as an expert in the Chinese hockey industry, from team coaching to program creation to on-the-ground operations. He has also collaborated with numerous media outlets on navigating the Chinese landscape from a marketing perspective.Mark is a key member of the leadership team for China Hockey Group, the country’s largest organization dedicated to running high-level adult and youth hockey programs both locally and on the world stage.He is also the founder of Hockey Hands, a non-profit organization teaching English and hockey to orphans, migrant children, and children with disabilities.Hockey’s popularity in China is nowhere near that of Canada or the U.S., nor is there much of a “grassroots” movement around the sport. Mark points out that the youth largely treat hockey as just another “class” rather than as a genuinely fun activity they voluntarily engage in, not to mention the fact that enrolling a child in hockey is a particularly expensive endeavor in China.Teenagers who do develop passion and demonstrable skills for hockey end up migrating elsewhere to be able to pursue their sport in a country with an established hockey scene. As for adults, ex-pats make up a large majority of local hockey players and enthusiasts as hockey remains a minor sport in China.Mark gives his thoughts on the role of guanxi in any business interaction among the Chinese, hockey and sports, in general, being no exception. He also notes the glaring lack of professional teams in the country, especially amid the pandemic, and what the future of hockey might look like going forward. Key Quotes:“There isn’t much of a hockey culture in China, unfortunately. It doesn’t enter the zone of the common person at all. It’s really only the hockey parents—the hockey families—who end up learning anything about the sport.” “In China, it’s very much about relationships—guanxi. [...] I had to learn that you can’t just be as honest as you’d like to be because, typically, Chinese people don’t want to have a confrontation.”