The Human Risk Podcast

Why do we live in such a polarised world and what can we do to minimise the dynamic? On this episode, I’m joined by Alex Chesterfield and Ali Goldsworthy, two of the co-authors of a book called Poles Apart - Why People Turn Against Each Other and How To Bring Them Together. They’re also two of the co-hosts of the Changed My Mind podcast that talks to people who have changed their minds on big issues. Alex Chesterfield is a behavioural scientist with a master's degree in Cognitive and Decision Science. Forever curious about why we do what we do, she currently works in financial services, leading a team of behavioural scientists to help get better outcomes for employees and customers. For four years, she was an elected Councillor in Guildford for the Conservative Party. She has personally experienced the effects of affective polarisation, both in and out of the workplace. She has been on the show before & you can hear that episode here: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/alex-chesterfield-on-behavioural-regulation/Ali Goldsworthy has been a political adviser and campaigner for more than twenty years. A former Deputy Chair of the Liberal Democrats, she led the team that built the fastest-growing campaigning organisation in the UK. In 2017 she was a Sloan Fellow at Stanford, co-creating its first depolarisation course. A board member of the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust, Alison has won numerous awards for her work. She has written for the Telegraph, Independent, New Statesman, The Times and Financial Times.In the episode, we talk about the genesis of the podcast and the book and what Alex and Ali have learned from writing it. We also explore some of the key dynamics that drive polarisation, including social media, and the techniques we can all deploy to minimise it in our lives and in society. Poles Apart book - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1119814/poles-apart/9781847942951.htmlFor more on the Changed My Mind Podcast visit — https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/author/the-depolarization-project/The specific episodes we referred to:Derek Black on why he left the White Nationalist movement — https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/leaving-white-nationalist-movement-with-derek-black/Ayman Diem on why he switched from being an Al Qaeda bombmaker to an MI6 spy — https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/podcasts/podcast-changed-my-mind/changed-my-mind-al-qaeda-bombmaker-mi6-spy/Cass Sunstein on why he changed his mind about the stability of US democracy — https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/podcasts/podcast-changed-my-mind/changed-my-mind-american-democracy-cass-sunstein/We also discussed:
LBC Radio presenter James O’Brien — https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/Twitter — https://twitter.com/mrjamesob?James’ Full Disclosure podcast — https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/42KqCF/‘Gamergate’ on Reddit — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)Psychologist Milton Lodge — https://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/polisci/people/_faculty/Lodge_Milton.phpDan Kahan — https://law.yale.edu/dan-m-kahan
Jonathan Haidt — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_HaidtChantal Mouffe — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chantal_MouffeAgonism — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agonism
Ian Leslie’s book Conflicted — http://ian-leslie.com/conflicted/Amy Edmondson on Psychological Safety — https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6451The online course (MOOC) in association with Cambridge University — https://www.edx.org/course/polarisation?

What do fools have to do with managing human risk? On the face of it, they’re likely to be a driver, rather than a solution. But when we use the term to describe in the context of court jesters, then the answer might be very different. As my guest on this episode, Béatrice Otto, helps me to understand. She’s the author of a book called Fools Are Everywhere: The Court Jester Around The World, which explores the history of the role. I’m fascinated by this from a human risk perspective because the comedy deployed by jesters provided them with a very effective vehicle for highlighting flaws in human decision-making. By permitting the jester to make jokes about what they had observed, the monarch or emperor would receive feedback they wouldn’t get from elsewhere.In our wide-ranging discussion, we explore the role of the fool, how they came to be appointed, the limits of what they could say and some of the cunning techniques they deployed to get their point across. Béatrice explains how the role came about, why the fool no longer exists and why perhaps it should. My thanks to my former colleague and regular listener to the show, Simon Rogerson, who first pointed out to me the relevance of court jesters to risk management.To find out more about the issues we discuss on the show:The book Fools Are Everywhere - https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/F/bo3615397.htmlBéatrice’s website - https://www.foolsareeverywhere.com/
To sign up for her newsletter - https://www.foolsareeverywhere.com/The job description for corporate fools - https://www.foolsareeverywhere.com/blog-fools-job-description/If you missed the previous episodes featuring comedian and impressionist Josh Berry:Part One - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/josh-berry-on-comedy-satire-impressions-part-one/Part Two - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/josh-berry-on-comedy-satire-impressions-part-two/

This episode is the second part of my discussion with comedian & impressionist Josh Berry. If you haven't yet listened to the first part, I recommend you do that, before listening to this.You'll find Part One here: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/josh-berry-on-comedy-satire-impressions-part-one/In this episode, we discuss how Josh's interest in human decision-making drives his comedy and explore further aspects of his work. Links to specific topics we discuss are below.To find out more about Josh, his Rafe Hubris diaries, his tour and his other work visit www.joshberryofficial.com.To avoid missing out on his latest sketches, follow Josh on social media:Twitter — https://twitter.com/JoshBerryComedyFacebook — https://www.facebook.com/JoshBerryImpressionsInstagram — https://www.instagram.com/joshberrycomedy/YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLtucDoyC9QQyibS8BY3VewIn this episode, we discuss:- Adrian Mole, a fictional diariast - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Mole- Four Lions, a satire by Chris Morris - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lions- Comedian Tommy Tiernan - https://www.tommedian.com/- Dave LaChapelle's Netflix special. Watch a trailer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1UEj_6T1RE. and the show here: https://www.netflix.com/title/81228510- The tale of Sisyphus from Greek mythology - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus- Comedian Michael Spicer - https://www.michaelspicer.co.uk/ and https://twitter.com/MrMichaelSpicer?s=20- Comedian Sarah Cooper - https://thecooperreview.com/ and https://twitter.com/sarahcpr?s=20- Fictional Reporter Jonathan Pie - https://www.jonathanpie.com/- Comedian James Acaster - https://www.jamesacaster.com/- Bob Mortimer's Train Guy - https://mashable.com/article/bob-mortimer-train-guy- Psychologist Jordan Peterson - https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/- Comedian Jimmy Carr - https://www.jimmycarr.com/- Dave Chapelle's speech at the Mark Twain Prize - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwyeYmXjD1A- Josh's Interview with UK newspaper The Daily Telegraph -https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-wingers-have-much-sense-humour-left/- Former Leaders of the UK Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_CorbynEd Milliband - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Miliband- Political commentator Owen Jones - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Jones- NASCAR driver Josh Berry - https://www.joshberryracing.com/- My Amazon review for Staggering Hubris, Josh/Rafe's book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/R3T9LVQK15CB2Q/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1785633074

What can comedy teach us about human decision-making?That’s something that my guest on this episode Josh Berry, knows all about. He’s a comedian, impressionist and satirist — though as you’ll hear on the episode, he’s not hugely keen on that third label. If there’s anyone that can help us to understand human risk, it’s someone who is really good at observing human behaviour and making us laugh about it.I first discovered Josh last year, thanks to videos he released on social media which went viral. In them he plays, Rafe Hubris, a 25-year-old SPAD - short for SPecial ADviser — to the current UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson. The construct Josh uses for his Rafe videos is really simple. Something newsworthy — usually ridiculous — has happened in reality and Rafe is on the phone providing strategic and communications advice to whichever government minister has got themselves into trouble.The comedy comes both from the storyline and Rafe as a character — the surname Hubris is very apt to describe the incredibly self-confident, posh, entitled Oxford graduate. We know he studied at Oxford because he never ceases to tell us. If you’ve never come across a Rafe, congratulations! — just imagine what a younger Boris Johnson must have been like. Since releasing the videos, Josh has written & published Rafe’s 2020 diaries, and is in the middle of a UK tour. Our discussion went on so long, that there's a second episode coming very soon.To find out more about the topics we discussed:Josh’s website including details of Rafe’s diary and his tour: www.joshberryofficial.comJosh on Social Media:Twitter — https://twitter.com/JoshBerryComedyFacebook — https://www.facebook.com/JoshBerryImpressionsInstagram — https://www.instagram.com/joshberrycomedy/YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLtucDoyC9QQyibS8BY3VewMrs Doubtfire - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._DoubtfireSimon Lipson - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_LipsonRussell Brand - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_BrandJosh’s interview with Andy Murray - https://www.hellomagazine.com/celebrities/2017070340302/andy-murray-impressionist-funny-clip/A clip from Rob & Romesh with Andy Murray - https://twitter.com/robandromeshvs/status/1413148366960164865?lang=enThe Michael Gove tweet that led to the creation of Rafe Hubris — https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1199304826468876288?Alan Partridge - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_PartridgeJimmy Carr - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_CarrRafe’s Peppa Pig reference - https://twitter.com/JoshBerryComedy/status/1463203112076910596?s=20
Frankie Boyle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_BoyleChris Morris - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Morris_(satirist)

How can we prevent people from falling over and injuring themselves? What sounds like a simple challenge, is actually a major issue. In a normal year, over 300,000 people in the UK alone have to go going to hospital after slipping on a surface. That equates to 1.5 million bed days and around a billion pounds, so 1.3 billion dollars of insurance claims. My guest on this episode, Christian Harris, is the founder of Slip Safety, a company that specialises in helping prevent these kinds of accidents. If that sounds like an unusual business model, you’re right. But as you’ll hear there’s a lot more complexity in what makes us fall over than you might think. If you want to solve the problem, then you need a specialist to help you do that.The more I spoke to Christian about his business, the more I realised that what he does is highly relevant to human risk. Because it’s not just a case of telling people to take more care, though sometimes it clearly is the fault of the individual who fell. But equally, sometimes the environment has been poorly designed, making the chances of people falling over unnecessarily high. This is a case of human risk manifesting itself in the physical world. In our discussion, Christian explains what inspired him to set up the company. We also explore the dynamics of falling and how technology can help prevent it. We look at how the idea of falling over being funny — think of cartoon characters throwing banana skins down to make their nemesis fall over or comedy YouTube videos of people falling over in the snow — poses challenges when you’re trying to manage what is a very dangerous risk. And we talk about the fact that logical approaches to managing this — signs that say things like slippery when wet, might actually be counter-productive. I also get some tips from him on how we can all make ourselves less likely to fall overChristian not only shares some wonderful insights — and you’ll be amazed at how much more complex this subject is than you might initially think — but he’s also great company. So, please enjoy my discussion with Christian Harris on Slips, Falls and Accidents.Links to issues we discuss:Christian’s company Slip Safety - https://slipsafety.co.uk/Chimes model - https://slipsafety.co.uk/chimes/Co-op incident in Truro - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-39998209Safety & Risk Success Podcast - https://anchor.fm/safetyrisksuccessThe episode on human risk - https://anchor.fm/safetyrisksuccess/episodes/Christian-Hunt-on-The-Human-Risk--behavioural-science-in-safety-e18sa2eChristian’s profile on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-harris-slip-safety/

How can we manage risk and keep people safe in fragile environments?My guest Colin Pereira is Director at HP Risk Management, a consultancy that assists media organisations operating in challenging environments. Since the business of journalism is to report, news organisations need to get their reporters into locations the rest of us might prefer to avoid. As a human risk challenge, this is multifaceted — many of the risks facing journalists in the field are human, and the decisions they make while on assignment also provide plenty of opportunity for human risk to manifest itself. Meanwhile the media organisations need to consider how they manage the risk from an organisational perspective.Colin helps news organisations build their compliance infrastructure and crisis management for dangerous assignments. In simple terms, that involves supporting journalists and broadcasters in managing risk when they go into war zones, disaster locations or engage in dangerous investigations. For two decades, he has shaped the risk management model for journalists operating under threat. In 2020, Colin launched RiskPal, a software as a service platform focusing on streamlining risk assessment. In addition to working with numerous news organisations, he also serves as the Committee to Protect Journalists’ Safety Strategist. Previously he was head of security for ITN and Deputy Head of BBC High-Risk Team. Colin has advised teams of journalists covering wars, natural disasters, terrorism and riots globally, and has worked on high-risk investigations. He was also an award-winning journalist for BBC Newsnight and BBC Current Affairs.In our discussion, Colin explains how he went from studying Islamic fundamentalism to working for The BBC. Firstly as part of the security team, and then as a journalist where he worked in some very dangerous locations. That means he’s got some fascinating anecdotes about the kinds of risks that journalists face and what the organisations that employ them can do to mitigate the risks they’ll be facing.During our discussion, we talk about:Colin's career: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colin-pereira-187b2828/HP Risk Management: https://www.hpriskmanagement.co.uk/RiskPal: https://www.riskpal.com/The BBC report Colin was working on in Afghanistan: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00m36bjHow social media impacted the 2011 Arab Spring protests in Egypt: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12400319

How can diversity help make Compliance functions more effective? My guest, Mary Shirley is a compliance professional who has been working to promote women in compliance. She’s the co-host of The Great Women in Compliance podcast and the co-author of a book called Sending the Elevator Back Down: What We’ve Learned from Great Women in Compliance.One of the ways we can mitigate human risk is to have a more diverse range of opinions involved in decision-making. And that’s arguably even more important when it comes to the people in functions responsible for managing human risk. Because if you’re going to effectively influence employees to do the right things and not do the wrong ones, you’re going to need a broad range of insights into what those employees might get up to.Mary and I both presented at the recent European Ethics & Compliance Conference. You can see those presentations here:Mary’s presentation on what it takes to be a great woman in Compliance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4AXJUPQyjk & mine on what Compliance has to do with Ethics - https://youtu.be/AYDzfQGesKEIf, like me, you thought Compliance was a male-dominated discipline, but as Mary explains, the ratio of men to women is above average, but for reasons you might not expect. And, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t work to be done.During our discussion we explore:Mary's LinkedIn profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/iheartcompliance/The Great Women In Compliance podcast — https://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/great-women-in-compliance/It’s available on all the major podcast platforms
Sending The Elevator Back Down book - https://amzn.to/3qUWElUOrganisational Psychologist Adam Grant - https://www.adamgrant.net/The Great Women In Compliance LinkedIn Group - https://www.linkedin.com/groups/12156164/The Activision Blizzard Story - https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/activision-blizzard-lawsuit-controversy-timeline-explained/Gucci’s Shadow Committees - https://www.wmagazine.com/story/gucci-millennials-shadow-committee-alessandro-micheleThe episode of this show featuring a sexologist - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/sexologist-dr-jill-mcdevitt-on/A brief note on audio quality — I recorded my part of the show while travelling and the audio quality at my end isn’t as high as it usually is. My apologies. Fortunately, Mary’s audio, like her content, is of a very high standard.

How can we make transport more human? On this episode, I'm exploring the human risk dynamics of transport — both from the perspective of the traveller, but also from the perspective of those who run and design transport networks and policy.Every single one of us has reasons why we want to get from A to B and usually, we have to make choices about how we do that - whether we walk, cycle, drive a car, ride a motorbike, catch public transport or get on a plane. There’s human risk in the decisions we make around how we travel - for us and for others. Equally, those who design transport policy, manage networks and run travel operators also run human risk in what they do.My guest on this episode is Pete Dyson. He’s a behavioural scientist who advises the UK’s Department of Transport on how to apply behavioural science in policy. And he’s the co-author of a fascinating new book Transport for Humans: are we nearly there yet? The other co-author is Rory Sutherland, who has appeared on the show before. You'll find links to those episodes at the end of these show notesIn my discussion with Pete, we look at what travel means and how our views on it are shaped by influences that might not immediately be obvious. He’s got a host of anecdotes that I guarantee will make you think differently about travel and transport. And one of the things I find fascinating is that the ideas he shares aren’t just applicable to transport contexts. We can use the same thinking for areas like compliance and ethics. To find out more about the book visit https://londonpublishingpartnership.co.uk/transport-for-humans/Listener warning — there were some issues with the audio while recording, so the sound quality isn’t as high as it normally is. But I promise you that lower-quality audio is compensated for by really high-quality content.Links to the previous episodes featuring Pete's co-author Rory Sutherland:Rory on Compliance — https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-on-compliance/Rory Sutherland & Gerald Ashley on Networks — https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley/Rory Sutherland & Gerald Ashley on Prosilience — https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-rory-sutherland/

How can counter-intuitive thinking help us to make better business decisions? It’s something that Professor Ian McCarthy explores in his research.Ian has been on the show before, talking about his research Into workplace bullshit. You can hear that episode here 🎧 👉 https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/professor-ian-mccarthy-on-workplace/On this episode, we begin by catching up with Ian’s work on bullshit and find out why several large companies are getting his help to run bullshit audits.We then explore the first of several counter-intuitive ideas. If you’re a company and you own some intellectual property — your logo or brand imagery, for example — then conventional wisdom says that you should pursue anyone who tries to infringe your rights. But there are many situations where that might not actually be the best thing to do. Ian talks us through the idea of open branding.You can read the research on that here:https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0007681320300938?via%3DihubAfter that, we explore social media, and I get Ian’s thoughts on how companies and individuals might respond to it. Amongst other insights, Ian highlights how far from thinking of social media as a risk to be mitigated, there are counter-intuitive strategies available to companies who embrace it. Why might you, for example, want to use it to leak information that historically might have been considered trade secrets? You can learn more about that here: https://www.slideshare.net/IanMcCarthy/were-leaking-and-everythings-fine-how-and-why-companies-deliberately-leak-secrets-57447908?Then we look at Ian’s field, and he explains why he’s a huge proponent of open academia. It’s another concept that involves overturning conventional wisdom. 
To see more of Ian’s research, visit; https://sfu.academia.edu/IanMcCarthyYou can find him on social media:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Toffeemen68LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianmccarthy1/In our discussion, we refer to Led By Donkeys - https://www.ledbydonkeys.org/

What impact do crowds have on football ⚽️games? Is there such a thing as 'home advantage'? It's a question that is of interest to those of us who watch the sport, but also to non-sports fans because it helps us to understand the psychology of how we are impacted by our environment and other people.My guest, Dane McCarrick is a postgraduate researcher at The University of Leeds whose interests include the psychosocial factors underpinning sporting excellence in association football, with a particular focus on how psychological stress influences performance.  Thanks to COVID-19, a large number of professional football games were played behind closed doors. As a result, it was possible to undertake a study of what impact the absence of fans had on the results. The answer is significant — not having them there, reduced home advantage, illustrating that there is an impact on both players and referees. In our discussion, we talk about the home advantage study and then move on to talk about Dane’s broader work looking at the psychology of sport. We explore how pressure and stress impact sporting performance and there are some lessons in there for all of us about how we manage those dynamics in our own lives, whether or not we play sport.From a human risk perspective, the study helps us to think about what might influence our behaviours. And, if we consider the referee as fulfilling a compliance role, there are parallels for how we manage Compliance in organisations.To learn more about Dane and his research visit: https://medicinehealth.leeds.ac.uk/psychology/pgr/4310/dane-mccarrickTo read the Home Advantage research: The research piece on home advantage is here: https://psyarxiv.com/2gkht/You can also read an article written by Dane for The Psychologist magazine here:https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/home-premier-advantageOther sports-related episodes of the podcast include:-Ben Cohen on the Hot Hand fallacy:https://www.podpage.com/the-human-risk-podcast/ben-cohen-on-the-hot/ - Rafael Honigstein on the psychology of football: https://www.podpage.com/the-human-risk-podcast/raphael-honigstein-on-the-psychology-of-football/- Derek Rae on what football can teach us about decision-making:https://www.podpage.com/the-human-risk-podcast/derek-rae-on-what-football/