The Geek In Review

This week we are joined by Mirat Dave and Danish Butt of Swiftwater & Co. as they step into the studio to make a simple claim, investigations and legal operations should serve the business, not slow the business. Mirat traces a path across law, technology, and global risk, then explains why a team blending strategy with implementation drew him to Swiftwater. Danish shares a wry origin story from early e-discovery days and outlines Swiftwater’s north star, the seven C’s, connecting, caring, collaboration, creating, curiosity, courage, and confidence. The tone stays pragmatic, no hype, and a few laughs land along the way.Global scope often triggers the “Germany is different” objection. Mirat acknowledges regional nuances, then reframes the discussion, most of the process is common across borders. The move that matters is standardization plus smart technology, including AI, to shift from linear headcount answers to scalable capacity. The payoff is speed, consistency, and lower risk. The team urges leaders to act like business owners, align processes to growth, margin, assets, and purpose, and resist the reflex to hire without redesigning the work.Budget hurdles come next. Leaders struggle to win funds for process change or platforms, while headcount requests sail through. The fix is storytelling backed by math, present a structured plan, expected savings, and a clear ROI in the language a CFO or GC uses daily. Danish widens the lens on metrics, many teams still track counts and cycle times, while value measures like revenue protected or reputation preserved sit at the bottom of the list. The guidance is to flip that order, tie decisions to value, and approach AI as a set of pointed use cases with measurable outcomes, not a monolith.Legal ops gets a moment in the spotlight as the quiet power. Danish reminds listeners that service functions exist to help the organization win, recognition matters, yet trust erodes when tools take center stage over results. Mirat presses the enablement mindset with a memorable image, legal, risk, and investigations are the pit crew, the business is the driver. Faster pits win races. He shares examples, a government contractor lifted renewal success by turning compliance visibility into proactive reminders and playbooks. In investigations, trend analysis by region, level, and timing surfaces fixes that reduce incoming allegations, lighten workloads, and raise quality.The crystal ball stays practical. Danish advises teams to treat AI as a working style backed by a two-year plan, prepare data, pick targets, and avoid both freeze and frenzy. Mirat expects investigation platforms to evolve from reporting systems into work systems, triage, plan creation, interview guidance, and repeatable playbooks that lift speed and consistency.Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.] Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Transcript:

Kara Peterson, a legal education pro turned Descrybe advocate, and Rich DiBona, the brain behind their citator technology, share their insights on revolutionizing legal research. They discuss Descrybe's innovative citator that transforms traditional case analysis with issue-level and backward citation features. The duo highlights their mission to democratize legal research, making it more accessible and affordable. They also touch on the challenges of incorporating advanced AI and expanding offerings to legal professionals, ensuring they stay ahead in a rapidly evolving industry.

Pablo Arredondo, VP of Co-Counsel at Thomson Reuters, and Joel Hron, the company's CTO, dive into the transformative impact of reasoning models in legal AI. They discuss the groundbreaking capabilities of ChatGPT-5, emphasizing how these advancements empower lawyers by shifting focus from routine tasks to strategic decision-making. Joel highlights Thomson Reuters' Deep Research tool, which enhances legal research accuracy while stressing the importance of transparency in AI processes. Their insights paint a vibrant future for legal technology.

This week, we welcome back Tom Martin, CEO of LawDroid, to discuss his widely read “AI Law Professor” column for Thomson Reuters and his five-level roadmap for legal AI. Martin explains that the framework was inspired by a leaked OpenAI memo and aims to give legal professionals a clearer picture of AI’s trajectory. The five levels range from basic chatbots to fully AI-run organizations, with intermediate stages such as reasoners, agents, and innovators. According to Martin, while we are still in the early stages, the release of GPT-5 and its reasoning capabilities has accelerated progress toward higher levels, especially in the development of autonomous agents.The conversation turns to the implications of GPT-5’s hybrid reasoning model, which combines inference with step-by-step reasoning to deliver more relevant answers. Martin sees this as a significant shift for the legal industry, moving beyond single-response chatbots toward sustained, goal-oriented AI. He predicts that while the technology for fully autonomous legal agents could be available within a year, widespread adoption in law firms and corporations will take closer to three years. However, with these advancements come ethical concerns. Martin outlines four principles for responsible AI agents: transparency, autonomy, reliability, and visibility, cautioning that AI’s knowledge is always bounded and potentially incomplete.Reflecting on the legal industry’s pace of change since their last discussion, Martin notes that while some firms are sprinting to adopt AI, others may already be too late to catch up. He warns that professional services organizations must actively integrate AI to remain competitive. The discussion explores the potential for tech giants or AI companies to acquire major legal information providers, and Martin argues that the future lies in blending software, consulting, and education into a unified service model. This integrated approach, he believes, will be necessary for survival in a market where AI is capable of generating solutions without traditional software development cycles.Beyond the legal tech roadmap, Martin shares insights from his teaching at Suffolk University Law School and his observations from producing the “Last Week in Legal AI” news series. He sees both opportunities and risks for the next generation of lawyers, particularly in acting as translators between AI systems and legal practice. The discussion touches on generational attitudes toward AI, with younger users showing both skepticism and heavy reliance on AI for personal and professional support. Martin also addresses societal concerns, from AI in mental health applications to job displacement, and stresses the importance of curating AI outputs with human judgment.The episode wraps with Martin’s update on the American Legal Technology Awards, set for October 15 at Suffolk University Law School in Boston, which he describes as “the Oscars of legal tech.” When asked about the biggest challenge for the next few years, Martin points to the uncertainty of where professionals will fit in a rapidly shifting world. He envisions a possible new model that combines service, education, and software to deliver legal help at scale, but stresses that no one knows exactly how the future will unfold. His hope is that the AI-driven abundance ahead will be shared broadly, without excluding people from its benefits.Links:Keep up with Tom's podcast and latest thoughts on the law and innovation at: lawdroidmanifesto.comNab some tickets to this year's Oscars of Legal Innovation at: americanlegaltechnology.comListen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.] Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Ken Crutchfield, founder of Spring Forward Consulting, shares insights from his extensive background with legal information vendors. He likens today's AI boom in law to the chaotic American Industrial Revolution, highlighting the lack of regulation amidst hype and overinvestment. Ken discusses the need for law firms to rethink adoption strategies, balancing expectations with startups' limitations, and emphasizes the importance of 'Return on Experience' to maximize tech use. He calls for leadership engagement to navigate this evolving landscape effectively.

Christian Geyer, founder and CEO of ACTFORE, has an intriguing background that spans military intelligence and carpentry. He shares his unique career journey from handling top-secret data in the Navy to building AI-driven solutions for cybersecurity. The conversation highlights the challenges faced during COVID-19, the rapid evolution of his startup from a closet, and how automation reshapes data breach management. Geyer also discusses the importance of balancing human skills with tech solutions and the complexities of data security in a rapidly changing landscape.

Max Junestrand, CEO of Legora, and Ilona Loginova, Director of Practice Innovation at Cleary Gottlieb, discuss their transformative partnership in legal tech. They explore how AI is revolutionizing legal workflows, emphasizing collaboration and adaptability. Max highlights Legora’s suite of tools, while Ilona shares Cleary's dual approach combining in-house innovations and external partnerships. The duo envisions a future where AI acts as a co-worker, fostering a more interconnected and agile legal industry. This shift marks a new era in how legal teams operate.

Matthew Dickinson, CEO and founder of Vable, shares insights on the legal industry's transformation due to generative AI. He discusses the shift from information overload to personalized, actionable insights that integrate seamlessly into lawyers' workflows. Matthew emphasizes the ethical considerations surrounding AI use, outlining four pillars: trust, transparency, accuracy, and inclusion. The conversation also touches on how law firms can leverage advanced technology for client engagement while maintaining the essential human element in decision-making.

Trevor Quick, Strategic Business Development lead at Harvey.ai, shares insights into the game-changing evolution of the company in legal tech. He discusses the impressive $300 million Series E funding and how Harvey.ai's integration with LexisNexis is streamlining legal research. Trevor highlights the importance of collaboration between legal experts and AI engineers and how tailored solutions are transforming workflows for lawyers. He also touches on Harvey's expansion into new sectors like tax and accounting, showcasing innovative applications for legal tech.

Avaneesh Marwaha, CEO of Litera, shares his insights on steering a legal tech company through the AI boom. He discusses the critical shift from acquisition-driven growth to fostering in-house AI innovation. Avaneesh highlights the challenge of 'adoption fatigue' among law firms overwhelmed by numerous AI tools. He emphasizes the need for a cultural transformation in legal workplaces, advocating for meaningful AI integration that boosts efficiency and decision-making while maintaining human oversight in the evolving landscape of legal technology.