Edgy Ideas

Danny is a leading practitioner working with elite athletes. In this podcast he shares his reflections on working at a leading premiership football club in the UK. Drawing on his experiences of studying at the Tavistock clinic, Danny discusses the leadership and power dynamics at play in these soccer clubs.  He applies Menzies-Lyth theory of social defences against anxiety to his experience, observing how the obsessive focus on diet and nutrition are a social defence against the anxiety of poor performance. Whilst diet is clearly important, the excess of the practices tell a different story.  Simon and Danny discuss the 'happiness imperative', how highly paid footballers feel obliged to be upbeat - 'how can you not be happy, with the wealth and glamour'  yet this represses the shadow side of their lives, and the anxieties and struggles they face.  Discussing mental health issues is not encouraged as they need to be 'at the top of their game' to be selected and successful.   Danny ends by discussing his life-long practice of meditation, and how this helps him in his work, and how he uses an embodied approach to help athletes engage more holistically with their bodies, rather than 'stay in their minds'. I hope you enjoy this fascinating podcast.  BIO Danny Donachie works with World class athletes and leaders to improve performance through greater presence. He has held several leadership positions in elite sports, most recently working with a leading premiership soccer club in the UK.  Danny brings his lifelong practice of meditation from Eastern traditions, alongside a more psychologically informed approach to his work. Through Embodyism he consults with high performing individuals and groups.

Ian Parker is a practising psychoanalyst, an academic and a revolutionary activist.  Ian discusses the radical roots of psychoanalysis and how these have changed overtime, to make psychoanalysis fit with contemporary capitalist society.   Ian believes that psychoanalysis should be a radical practice than impacts on individuals and society, rather than an elite practice that adapts individuals to conform to social norms. He writes “Our task is to connect social struggle with the kind of unavoidable internal struggle described by psychoanalytic theory.”  Ian challenges the standard idea of the unconscious being like an ice-berg where beneath our conscious surface lies a dark abyss of uncivilised, biological and instinctual drives.   He works with a Lacanian approach that addresses the unconscious as a social and external phenomena, one that we individually relate to.  He is critical of  the ‘Psy’ professions such as psychology and psychotherapy as being instrumental to keeping things as they are, rather than offering a past to individual and social transformation.   Ian is working towards developing a psychoanalytic practice that has a liberation ethic  Enjoy listening to this fascinating and edgy podcast!  BIO   Ian Parker is a psychoanalyst and a member of the new revolutionary organisation Anti-Capitalist Resistance, and of the Fourth International. His academic work has always been critical of psychology and psychiatry. His most recent book, co-authored with his Mexican comrade David Pavón-Cuéllar, is Psychoanalysis and Revolution: Critical Psychology for Liberation Movements  https://psychoanalysisrevolution.com/.   Ian is Emeritus Professor at Leicester University and his academic writing is widely published and cited. 

Olya Khaleelee shares her experiences and thoughts on 'OPUS, An organisation promoting the understanding of society'.  OPUS aims to develop a deeper understanding of conscious and unconscious organisational and social dynamics; and to promote reflective citizenship – using this understanding to act authoritatively and responsibly as members of society and organisations within society.  Olya shares some of the OPUS early work in the prison sector and workplace settings, and the development and importance of 'listening posts'.  Olya and Simon discuss the worrying authoritarianism growing in society, and how more than ever reflective citizenship is needed alongside spaces to help citizens take up their agency and authority in society.  Enjoy the listen!  Olya Khaleelee is a corporate psychologist and organisational consul­tant with a particular interest in leadership, and organisational transi­tion and transformation. She was director of OPUS: an Organisation for Promoting Understanding of Society from 1980–1994, is a profes­sional partner of the Tavistock Institute and was the first female director of the Leicester Conference on the theme of Authority Leadership and Organisation. She has published extensively in the areas of leadership and system psychodynamics in organisations, and beyond, into society

Stanley Gold is concerned with racism, and in his recent book, ‘Unthinkable Evil-Understanding Racism’ he makes the claim that we talk about racism, but not about the cause of racism, because to do so is unthinkable. He takes this phrase from politicians who talk about the ‘unthinkable evil’ when confronted with a racist or terrorist incidents.   Stanley shares his edgy idea that racism is caused by neuro-biological and infantile changes in brain structure. Simon challenges this idea as the sole cause of racism. He believes that whilst racism, authoritarianism, sexism, homophobia, and other forms of scapegoating can be linked to rigid forms of thinking, anxiety states and perhaps even neuro-biological wiring, it cannot be divorced from social causation. This social causation is the space which can be worked on to mitigate and reduce how anxieties and individual/collective troubled mindsets act out on the stage of life.  Simon agrees with Stan that we all have the potential to be racist and authoritarian, and some more than others.  Stan believes it is important to face this ‘unthinkable truth’, that racism is caused by infantile and neuro-biological factors.  Simon claims our task is to work on the social areas – economic, social equity, education, institutional containment etc, that can reduce the potential of racism being manifested, and utilised by populist and nationalist politicians and other sub-groups.  Stan thinks Simon avoids the unthinkable issue, Simon thinks Stan misses the important point that whatever the underlying cause of human behaviour, it is what happens in the social sphere that exacerbates, exploits, the worst of human behaviour or mitigates against it.  They both agree that being able to talk openly about differences, and to think about the unthinkable is vitally important today when so many conversations are shut down or cancelled. Enjoy this lively discussion!   BIO Stan Gold graduated in Medicine in Melbourne Australia and subsequently Guys Hospital London in Adult and Child Psychiatry where he became the inaugural Research Fellow. studying childhood Psychosis. Returning to Australia as research fellow to the inaugural department of Psychiatry , he was also consultant Psychiatrist at Prince Henry’s Hospital.. He  subsequently trained in Psychoanalysis, becoming a training Analyst of the Australian Society and chair of the Centre for Psychodynamic studies Monash University. Returning to London and a position at the Cassell Hospital, he broadened his interests to groups and organisations and became a board member and later, President of ISPSO. More recently he has been appointed as member of the Mental Health Tribunal in his state. He has written over 40 papers ranging from clinical and research studies in childhood to Psychodynamic aspects of Organisational life. He has written two books, “How to Bring up your Parents” and last October, "Unthinkable Evil: Understanding Racism”.

Josephine is Australia’s first out Transgender priest and on this podcast, shares her experiences, and why she believes that trans people can help to shine a light into the world.   Simon and Josephine reflect on why transphobia occurs, and how trans, queer and non-binary ways of being create anxieties for those who fear transition in their own lives.  Josephine believes that trans liberation is not just about emancipating transgender people, but it offers a vision of a beautiful world, where diversity flourishes.  Josephine shares how being transgender doesn’t take away the gender identities of male and female, it expands the limitations of the binary and adds new possibilities.   Discussing being in the church, Josephine embraces a theology that embraces mystery, a Christianity that is based on love and a church that embraces transitioning in this life and beyond.  BIO Josephine McDonnell Inkpin is the first openly and fully recognised transgender Anglican priest in Australia, now currently working as Minister of Pitt Street Uniting Church in Sydney.   Originally from England, where she studied at Oxford and Durham, she is a feminist church historian and theologian who has taught in various university settings over many years, as well as in a variety of ministry settings, typically ‘on the edge’.  Chair of Equal Voices, a peak Australian network of LGBTIQ+ Christians and allies, Jo has also been a prominent leader in Australian inter-faith, multicultural, First Nations Reconciliation, and other justice activities over many years. A former officer of the National Council of Churches in Australia and General Secretary of the NSW Ecumenical Council, and later described as a ‘Dangerous Woman of Queensland’, she was highlighted by Deloittes as one of the 2020 Out50 Outstanding LGBTI Leaders in Australia.

Dr Mishel McMahon, a Yorta Yorta First Nations woman from Australia, draws from 60,000 years of Aboriginal cultural experience to discuss what she terms ‘Relational Ontology’ - ontology meaning how we understand reality, what’s real and what’s not real.   She says “Relational ontology is a view of reality that all entities; plants, animals, elements, seasons, skies, waterways, the land, the spirit world and humans are in relationship, like a web. First Nations peoples and many other groups around the globe have held relational worldviews for thousands of years”.  The relational worldview contrasts with the European/Westernised mindset which places humans at the centre of knowledge creation.  Mishel discusses the importance of equality between all things, and how country, community and Ancestral knowledge are all infused and animated with spirit.  This rich discussion raises many questions and hopefully inspires us to see the world, and to live in it differently.   BIO  Mishel McMahon is a proud Yorta Yorta woman, she grew up in a large family in the Murray river region of Victoria, Australia. Mishel completed her undergraduate degree of Bachelor of Human Services and Honours in Social Work in 2012 at La Trobe. Mishel has worked at various First Nations organisations, including Indigenous Academic Enrichment Advisor at La Trobe organising Sorry Day and NAIDOC events. Mishel began her PhD, undertaking research that revealed principles of First Nations childrearing, using methodology informed from a relational worldview, and Yorta Yorta language. Mishel recently won Premier's Research Awards for Aboriginal Research 2019, Fellowship for Indigenous Leadership 2019 and recently worked as Social Work lecturer at Shepparton La Trobe, campus. Mishel is in the last stages of developing a First Nations Health & Wellbeing mobile app, and shorts films from her Fellowship. Currently Mishel is Victorian Aboriginal Research Accord Co-ordinator at VACCHO and lives in Elmore, Victoria on the Campaspe river. 

Paul brings deep insights into climate change drawing on psycho-social thinking. This conversation explores climate anxiety, climate denial and climate delay, and how we as ‘moderns’ find it very difficult to escape deeply embedded ideas that entrap us. Paul relates this thinking back to our founding myths from Judeo-Christianity that throws humanity outside of the Edenic garden, and outside of nature, and is always looking for external salvation.  He reflects that “Us moderns live in a kind of cocoon, continuing in our everyday routines, of living in our comforts, which means that we are able to live in this world, where because of mass media and now social media we know about all these terrible things going on and yet somehow or other remain unaffected” The conversation moves to how to engage with climate change and the anxieties it raises, and at the same time retain ‘radical hope’.  Finally Simon and Paul reflect with caution,  on some real changes taking place. Bio: Paul Hoggett is a psychoanalytic psychotherapist and is Emeritus Professor of Social Policy at UWE, Bristol where, with Simon Clarke, he was a Director of the Centre for Psycho-Social Studies. In 2000, with Larry Gould, he was founding editor of the journal Organisational and Social Dynamics, a forum for those working within the Tavistock Group Relations tradition. In 2012, with Adrian Tait, he founded the Climate Psychology Alliance (CPA) and was its first chair. He recently edited a collection of CPA research papers, Climate Psychology: On Indifference to Disaster (2019, Palgrave Macmillan). Previous books have included Politics, Identity and Emotion (2009, Paradigm) and Partisans in an Uncertain World (1992, Free Association Books).

This conversation is important for anyone working in organisations, and trying to make sense of systems thinking.  Jim has been working with systems for many years and offers insights into how systems thinking evolved, why it is so important, and also why it is problematic and creates resistances.  Drawing on psychoanalysis as a ‘moral’ practice, Jim believes that unless we understand the psychodynamics and emotions that are at play when we take a systems approach, it will likely fail.  For example, he describes how systems thinking removes the option of blaming the binary ‘bad other’, which is our comfortable fall-back position in so many instances.  Applying systems thinking we are all implicated and part of the challenges, and the problems we face are about interactions between things rather than the objects themselves. Jim brings a very humanistic lens to systems thinking and it is a  privileged to share this conversation and the wisdom and insights shared.  Bio James Krantz, Ph.D. is an organizational consultant and researcher from New York City, where he is a Principal of Worklab Consulting, LLC.  Jim has written extensively about the unconscious in work organizations, the dilemmas of leadership and authority in new forms of organization, and the challenges involved in developing one’s leadership voice.  His Ph.D. is in Systems Sciences from the Wharton School.   In addition to consulting, Jim has been on several faculties, including those of Yale and Wharton.  Currently he serves on the faculty of the School of Higher Economics in Moscow.  Jim is past President of the International Society for the Psychoanalytic Study of Organizations, Fellow of the A.K. Rice Institute, Member of OPUS and Chair of the Management Committee of the Organisational and Social Dynamics journal. 

This episode explores what it means to shift our mindsets towards ecological thinking and practice in organisations. This shift is away from the dominance of mechanistic and psychological thinking, not to replace these but in addition to them. Joan shares her long experience of working to disrupt organisations and help them to 'liberate' themselves from patterns that entrap them.  To achieve this, individuals, teams and organisations have to let go of their attachments to the psychological and technical ways of knowing and thinking and move towards ecological thinking – understanding behaviour in terms of connectivity, interdependencies, patterns, and circularity.   Simon and Joan discuss the challenges and aims of co-creating this emergent field of Organisational Ecology and Eco-Leadership that is so urgently needed to address the challenges of technological and environmental disruption.  Bio Joan is the CEO of Orgonomix. A company she founded in 2009 with the purpose of enabling systemic change and reshaping leadership and organisations to thrive in complexity. She has spent the past 30 years working both within organisations and as a consultant assisting executive teams to lead complex adaptive change and disentangle and repattern the organisational systems they are part of. Her work and unique methodology (OrgonomicsTM) helps her client systems find flow and coherence It provides the scaffold to enable them to change their cultures, business and operating models with transformational and commercial results. Using these transformations as containers for development she helps leaders grow leaders’ systemic lens, extend their relational intelligence and build their adaptive muscle to be System Leaders. She sees this as an imperative for leaders to help them thrive, for optimising organisational functioning but also as a necessity for the survival of our whole ecology which is under threat. Joan is a Fulbright Scholar and has a Masters Degree in Adult Education and Development from Wits University, South Africa and a Masters Degree in Developmental Psychology from Columbia University, NYC. She currently lives in Melbourne collaborating and learning with clients and colleagues to discover new ways for all of us to be at our ‘growing edge’.

Krish Raval is the Founder and Director of Faith in Leadership (FiL), Britain’s main leadership development organisation working with inter-faith communities. As a practicing Hindu he works with senior leaders and clerics from Muslim, Christian and Jewish faith communities.  In this conversation Krish shares his work and experiences of leading this inter-faith community.    Simon and Krish share their thoughts on how Eco-Leadership expresses the inter-dependencies and rich learning potential not only between faith communities but also between faith and secular organisations.   Krish explains that the most powerful learning and development he observes, comes from leaders being with others, and learning how to work with and learn from differences, rather than being taught leadership skills.  This aligns with Simon's theory of Leadership formation, which was inspired by his stay in a monastic hermitage. Simon noticed that monks were not taught 'monk skills' but were formed by the monastic life; the prayer, liturgy, rituals, work, spiritual direction, community life, self reflection and service to others. Krish's FiL work recognises this and he creates spaces for leadership formation to happen. He is currently developing the idea of ‘radical hospitality’, sharing his personal experience that inviting others into your home or place of worship to eat together, can be a transformative act.  In this wide-ranging conversation Krish recalls his conversation with Nelson Mandela and  he shares why he believes faith leadership in our communities is so important, to all society.  Bio   Krish Raval is the Founder and Director of Faith in Leadership (FiL), Britain’s main leadership development organisation to work with senior and emerging clerical and lay leaders from the main faith communities.  Based at St Benet's Hall, University of Oxford, Krish supports and mentors FiL’s extraordinary alumni network. Whether addressing refugee and human trafficking matters, running foodbanks, contending with right-wing agitators outside Mosques or Synagogues, addressing the fallout from the murders of servicemen or dealing with Covid-19, FiL alumni are the nexus of intelligent faith in the public square in Britain today. Krish read law at Cambridge and Sheffield Universities, started a leadership development programme for young people when he was in his twenties, and has interviewed icons of leadership including Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Nelson Mandela and HH The Dalai Lama.  He’s the only person to have been award an OBE for services to leadership education and inter-faith cohesion