Australia in the World

In Part 2 of our exclusive interview with Duncan Lewis AO, DSC, CSC, the recently retired head of ASIO, the conversation turns to the more recent challenge of foreign interference. Duncan has been quoted recently as describing foreign interference as an “existential threat to the nation”, and so Allan begins by asking Duncan to explain how he thinks about foreign interference in Australian politics, and how he would describe its impact. Darren looks to draw some contrasts between how Australia manages the threat of terrorism and how it responds to foreign interference. What is the first line of defence against foreign interference? What are some of the dangers of overreacting to the threat? The conversation then turns to the new national security and foreign interference laws passed in 2018. Are these laws fit for purpose? What is the balance between the government’s duty to protect, and the individual's right to privacy? What is Duncan’s view of calls for vetting of parliamentary candidates, and is the securitisation of public policy a necessary consequence of dealing with modern threats? The conversation finishes with the structure of national security policymaking in Australia. Who is the “Minister for National Security”, and what principles should govern decision-making? Finally, what in Duncan’s view are the most important qualities of political leadership? As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We want to thank AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, XC Chong and James Hayne for research support, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music and also Julia Ahrens for technical support in studio. 

In a first for the podcast, we present our first double episode, an exclusive interview with Duncan Lewis AO, DSC, CSC who until recently was Australia’s Director General of Security, leading ASIO, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation. In this first part, Allan and Darren discuss Duncan’s remarkable career, which as Allan notes is unique in terms of his experience in senior national security positions. Much of Duncan’s career has been focused on the challenge of terrorism, and this is the main policy focus of Part 1 of this interview. Duncan joined the Australian army in 1975, rising to become a Major General and head of Special Operations Command, before making the transition to a civilian role in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, where he quickly became a Deputy Secretary focusing on national security issues, before Prime Minister Kevin Rudd appointed him as Australia’s first National Security Advisor. From there he become Secretary of the Department of Defence, then Ambassador to the EU, NATO, Belgium and Luxembourg, before returning to Australia in 2014 to run ASIO. Much of the conversation revolves around the unique circumstances of Duncan’s career. He provides his perspective on the 9/11 attacks and the (still ongoing) war in Afghanistan, his transition from the military to the Australian Public Service, what it meant to take the top civilian job running the Department of Defence as an ex-military officer, and being present in Europe at the time UK Prime Minister David Cameron called the Brexit referendum. This first part of the interview then concludes specifically on the topic of terrorism, especially through the lens of Duncan’s role leading ASIO, Australia’s domestic intelligence agency, and how the organisation has adapted to the challenge of terrorism on home soil. Duncan also reflects on some of the controversies he’s been caught up in, and how senior officials must navigate politically sensitive issues in an era when facts themselves are seen as partisan. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj  We want to thank AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, XC Chong and James Hayne for research support, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music and also Julia Ahrens for technical support in studio.  Relevant links Duncan’s Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Lewis “An address by ASIO Director General Duncan Lewis”, Lowy Institute, 4 September 2019: http://www.lowyinstitute.org/news-and-media/multimedia/audio/address-asio-director-general-duncan-lewis

It is simply impossible to ignore China-related news stories in Australia this week, and so Allan and Darren do their best to grapple with the twin bombshell stories of a Chinese defector and asylum seeker, Wang “William” Liqiang, who claims to have information on the activities of Chinese intelligence, and a (now-deceased) individual, Nick Zhao, who reported to ASIO that he was approached to run for the Australian federal parliament. Along the way, a recent speech by former Prime Minister Paul Keating is brought into the conversation, as well as the denial of visas to two Australian parliamentarians to visit China. The episode finishes with an update on the situation in Hong Kong. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing, and XC Chong also for research assistance and audio editing. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links 60 Minutes, “Chinese spy spills secrets to expose Communist espionage”, 24 November 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdR-I35Ladk Nick McKenzie, Paul Sakkal and Grace Tobin, “The moment a Chinese spy decided to defect to Australia”, The Age, 23 November 2019: https://www.theage.com.au/national/the-moment-a-chinese-spy-decided-to-defect-to-australia-20191122-p53d0x.html “Chinese embassy says ‘self-proclaimed agent' Wang Liqiang is convicted fraudster”, ABC News, 24 November 2019: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-24/wang-liqiang-convicted-fraudster-says-chinese-embassy-canberra/11733102 Nick McKenzie, Paul Sakkal and Grace Tobin, “China tried to plant its candidate in Federal Parliament, authorities believe”, The Age, 24 November 2019: https://www.theage.com.au/national/china-tried-to-plant-its-candidate-in-federal-parliament-authorities-believe-20191122-p53d9x.html “Statement from the Director-General of Security, Mike Burgess - response to reporting on foreign interference”, 24 November 2019: https://www.asio.gov.au/statement-director-general-security-mike-burgess-response-reporting-foreign-interference.html  Paul Keating, “Speech delivered at the Australian Strategic Forum”, 18 November 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/18/paul-keatings-speech-on-australias-china-policy-full-text Dewey Sim, “Hong Kong protesters’ five demands meant to ‘humiliate’ government, won’t solve city’s issues: Singapore PM”, South China Morning Post, 17 October 2019: https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3033279/hong-kong-protesters-five-demands-meant-humiliate-government John Hawley, “Senator Hawley Delivers Floor Speech in Support of Hong Kong”, 23 October 2019: https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-delivers-floor-speech-support-hong-kong Eryk Bagshaw, “Hong Kong's use of emergency law sparks warning from Payne”, Sydney Morning Herald, 6 October 2019: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/authorities-risk-inflaming-a-delicate-situation-in-hong-kong-20191006-p52y3g.html Senator Marise Payne, “Statement on Hong Kong”, 14 November 2019: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/statement-hong-kong Scott Morrison, “Radio interview with Neil Mitchell – 3AW”, 22 November 2019: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/radio-interview-neil-mitchell-3aw-2 Anthony Galloway, “Marise Payne welcomes Hong Kong elections results”, Sydney Morning Herald, 28 Novembet 2019: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/marise-payne-welcomes-hong-kong-elections-results-20191128-p53exv.html Mick Herron, Slough House Series (Goodreads page): https://www.goodreads.com/series/101326-slough-house China Neican newsletter: https://neican.substack.com/p/welcome-to-china-neican

Allan and Darren kick off this week’s episode by covering a bad week for the United States’ Indo-Pacific strategy at the ASEAN and East Asia Summit meetings in Bangkok. Meanwhile Australia’s Defence Minister Linda Reynolds delivered a constructive speech in Washington DC setting out a vision for precisely what the United States ought to be doing. The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) trade agreement appears set to become a reality, albeit without the participation of India. Staying with India, it is reported that former NSW Premier Barry O’Farrell will become Australia’s next High Commissioner. In a speech in Sydney last week, Foreign Minister Marise Payne raised the plight of the Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang while discussing the threats posed by technology to human rights, and Beijing was not pleased; is any criticism of China’s human rights record compatible with a working bilateral relationship? Finally, the two catch up on the news from northern Syria, with Darren asking whether the Trump administration’s withdrawal of troops and abandonment of the Kurds will cause long term problems for America’s credibility. We invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj  We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing, and XC Chong for research assistance. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Aaron Connelly on the ASEAN Meetings (twitter): https://twitter.com/ConnellyAL/status/1191639856268509185 Linda Reynolds, “Keynote Address, Hudson Institute, Washington DC”, 2 November 2019: https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/minister/lreynolds/transcripts/keynote-address-hudson-institute-washington-dc Ben Doherty, “Australia to join major Asia-Pacific trade deal RCEP but India holds out”, The Guardian, 4 November 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/australia-to-join-major-asia-pacific-trade-deal-rcep-but-india-holds-out  Joe Aston, “Barry O’Farrell to be Australia’s next ambassador to India”, Australian Financial Review, 3 November 2019: www.afr.com/brand/rear-window/barry-o-farrell-to-be-australia-s-next-ambassador-to-india-20191103-p536yl?btis Marise Payne, “Ensuring security, enabling prosperity”, Speech at the United States Studies Centre, 29 October 2019: https://foreignminister.gov.au/speeches/Pages/2019/mp_sp_191029.aspx “Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Geng Shuang's Regular Press Conference on October 30, 2019”: https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/2511_665403/t1712002.shtml Allan Gyngell, “From the bookshelf: ‘Meeting Saddam’s men: looking for Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction’”, ASPI Strategist, 6 November 2019: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/from-the-bookshelf-meeting-saddams-men-looking-for-iraqs-weapons-of-mass-destruction/ Adam Grant and Allison Sweet Grant, “Stop trying to raise successful kids”, The Atlantic, Decemer 2019: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/stop-trying-to-raise-successful-kids/600751/ The Ezra Klein Show, “The loneliness epidemic (Vivek Murthy)”, 10 October 2019: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vox/the-ezra-klein-show/e/64496902

On this week’s episode, Allan and Darren look to have a broader discussion about China, anchoring the conversation around Allan’s recent article in Australian Foreign Affairs, “History hasn’t ended: How to handle China”. On the larger and longer term questions surrounding the Australia-China relationship, Allan argues that Australia indeed has an effective but under-appreciated way of approaching China, to weigh up interests and values and use those interests and values as stakes in our relationship with the PRC: foreign policy. Attempting to avoid the risk of engaging in what Prime Minister Morrison would term “over-analysis”, Allan and Darren discuss whether China is “different” to other great powers, if commentators are “overexcited” when it comes to China and what, if anything, the Australian government needs to do differently. Recorded on 21 October 2019, Allan and Darren also continue their recent history of disagreements in a discussion about free speech, China and the National Basketball Association. We invite our listeners to email us: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research assistance, and Martyn Pearce for technical support in studio. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant Links Allan Gyngell, “History hasn’t ended: How to handle China” in the October 2019 issue of Australian Foreign Affairs: https://www.australianforeignaffairs.com/essay/2019/10/china-dependence Roland Rajah, Alexandre Dayant, Jonathan Pryke, “Ocean of debt? Belt and Road and debt diplomacy in the Pacific”, Lowy Institute Analysis, 21 October 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/ocean-debt-belt-and-road-and-debt-diplomacy-pacific Adam Gopnik, “A thousand small sanities”, publisher page: https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/adam-gopnik/a-thousand-small-sanities/9781541699366/ Yesterday (film), IMDB page: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8079248/

Allan and Darren attempt their first “emergency” episode, recorded on Friday 4 October, the day after Prime Minister Morrison delivered the 2019 Lowy Lecture at the Sydney Town Hall. The conversation is structured around a commentary Allan wrote for the Lowy Interpreter that same day, in which he argues that the speech “marked a clear step away from the sort of Australian foreign policy articulated in the government’s 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper and towards the worldview of Trumpism and Brexit”. Darren, in contrast, found a lot more than Allan to like in the speech, and explains why he saw evidence of a clear theory of the political causes behind the crisis afflicting the rules-based order. This is probably the most significant disagreement Allan and Darren have had in the history of the podcast, which makes for a lively conversation! We invite our listeners to email us at australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj  We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing and XC Chong for research assistance. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Scott Morrison, “In our interest”, 2019 Lowy Lecture, Sydney Town Hall, 3 October 2019: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/speech-lowy-lecture-our-interest Allan Gyngell, “Scott Morrison strikes an anxious and inward-looking tone”, Lowy Interpreter, 4 October 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/scott-morrison-lowy-lecture Scott Morrison, Speech to the Chicago Council on Global Affairs, 23 September 2019: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/chicago-council-global-affairs Nick Bisley, “‘An ally for all the years to come’: why Australia is not a conflicted US ally”, Australian Journal of International Affairs 67(4) (2013): 403-418: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10357718.2013.803029 Tony Abbott, “Remarks at G20 Leaders’ Retreat”, Brisbane, 15 November 2014: https://pmtranscripts.pmc.gov.au/release/transcript-23959

In this special episode, Allan and Darren interview two of Australia’s currently serving ambassadors: Rod Brazier, High Commissioner to Solomon Islands, and Sara Moriarty, High Commissioner to Samoa. As Allan notes in his welcome, the podcast to date has not focused as much on “the role of the overseas network of Australian diplomatic posts, which provide the essential diplomatic transmission belt between Canberra and the world; articulating and advocating for Australian views and interests on the one hand, and interpreting and analysing the overseas country and its leadership for Canberra on the other”. In a conversation recorded on 11 September 2019, Rod and Sara offer fascinating insight into the countries to which they are accredited, the strategic landscape in the region, and their roles as Heads of Mission in representing Australia. How do these countries see the world, and their place in it? How does Prime Minister Morrison’s concept of “family” diplomacy translate into diplomatic practice? Other topics covered include China growing presence, climate change, the recently commenced Pacific Labour Scheme, and digital diplomacy. We invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research assistance, and Martyn Pearce for technical support. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Roderick Brazier’s biography: https://dfat.gov.au/about-us/our-people/homs/Pages/high-commissioner-to-solomon-islands.aspx Sara Moriarty’s biography: https://dfat.gov.au/about-us/our-people/homs/Pages/high-commissioner-to-samoa.aspx

On this week’s episode, Allan and Darren focus on Prime Minister Morrison’s official state visit to the United States this past week and his meetings with Donald Trump at the White House. What is a “state visit”, what could the PM hope to achieve, and what landmines did he need to dodge? In light of a rather extraordinary press conference in the Oval Office, how did Morrison perform overall? And who is Australia’s chief diplomat: the PM or the Foreign Minister? The conversation then turns to Iran and reports that three Australians are imprisoned, as well as the recent attack on Saudi Arabia’s oil production facilities and what this means for Australia’s energy security. The episode concludes by covering the Fijian PM’s recent visit to Canberra and, in the week of the global climate strike and a UN climate summit in New York, how Australia’s position on climate change issues affects our multilateral diplomacy. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj  We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing, and XC Chong for research assistance. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Trump holds bilateral meeting with Australian PM in Oval Office (video), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leyogCcxEX4 Daniel Flitton, “Trump, Morrison, the media, and heading what you want to hear”, Lowy Interpreter, 23 September 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/trump-morrison-media-hearing-what-you-want-hear Ben Doherty, “Australia left with few diplomatic levers after three citizens detained in Iran”, The Guardian, 12 September 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/12/australia-left-with-few-diplomatic-levers-after-three-citizens-detained-in-iran Andrew Robertson, “Australia's fuel supplies vulnerable if Middle East conflict cuts supply”, ABC News, 19 September: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-19/australia-remains-vulnerable-to-running-out-of-fuel/11527492 Julie Suares, “JB Chifley: An ardent internationalist”: https://www.mup.com.au/books/jb-chifley-hardback Shany Mor, “Nobody understands democracy anymore”, Tablet Magazine, 13 August 2019: https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/289489/nobody-understands-democracy-anymore 

Allan and Darren kick off this episode by discussing Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s recent overseas trip. The PM’s first stop was Vietnam for a bilateral visit. Although China loomed over proceedings, it was never directly called out - does this matter? And is it significant that Australia is becoming "mates" with a country with very different political values? Next was France, where President Macron had invited Morrison to be an observer at the G7 leaders’ summit. Was this a big deal, and what did we learn from the summit overall? Moving on, Australia has formally announced its participation in the US-led maritime security mission in the Persian Gulf, and Darren wants to know if this is purely about alliance management. Fourth, the two discuss the difficult situation in Kashmir, and consider Australia’s neutral response. Finally, the government sent its largest ministerial delegation to PNG for some years. Darren asks Allan about the issues in providing foreign aid as direct budgetary assistance, and the general state of the bilateral relationship. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing, and XC Chong for research assistance. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Prime Minister of Australia, “Joint Statement Between Viet Nam and Australia”, Media Release, 23 August 2019: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/joint-statement-between-viet-nam-and-australia Prime Minister of Australia, “More Action to Prevent Online Terror”, Media Release, 26 August 2019: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/more-action-prevent-online-terror Prime Minister of Australia, “Australia Joins International Maritime Security Construct in the Gulf”, Media Release, 21 August 2019: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/australia-joins-international-maritime-security-construct-gulf The Economist, “When India’s government abuses power, the media cheer”, 22 August 2019: https://www.economist.com/asia/2019/08/22/when-indias-government-abuses-power-the-media-cheer “Kashmir issue should be resolved bilaterally: Australian High Commissioner”, ANI News, 30 August 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVIJgIXTZPY The Wandering Earth (imdb page): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7605074/?ref_=nv_sr_2?ref_=nv_sr_2   Kate Knibbs, “A Pre–‘Once Upon a Time … in Hollywood’ Lesson on the Manson Family”, The Ringer (note, spoiler free): https://www.theringer.com/movies/2019/7/24/20708506/once-upon-a-time-in-hollywood-charles-manson-family-sharon-tate

In the final of our recent series of interviews recorded in July, we speak to Clare Walsh, Deputy Secretary for the Global Cooperation, Development and Partnerships Group with Australia's Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Clare’s large portfolio covers Australia’s global engagement, in particular our multilateral diplomacy, foreign aid program and thematic issues as diverse as infrastructure, climate change and gender. In a wide-ranging discussion, Clare begins the interview by explaining her background: how she went from working in local government in Western Australia early in her career to the highest-profile international issues today. Allan then asks Clare to give her assessment on how “shaky” the international order is at present, invoking his fixation with the US’ threatened withdrawal from the Universal Postal Union! Darren follows up by asking how Australia conducts diplomacy within the order: how do we convince others to work inside the order to reform it, rather than walking away, and how do we engage with countries on areas of mutual interest when we might have major disagreements on other issues?  The conversation shifts to human rights and development. What does it mean to “take up” a human rights issue, what’s the multilateral / bilateral balance in Australian diplomacy, and how useful are the large multilateral forums like the Human Rights Council? Does Australia’s involvement in infrastructure programs represent a broadening of what “development” means in 2019 and what aid programs are asked to do? What about working with partners who are relatively wealthier—how do Australia's development assistance programs differ? And how has the entry of new funders—whether other governments or non-government actors—change the landscape for Australia? The conversation finishes up by zooming out. Allan asks what is distinct about what DFAT does (“what’s point of DFAT?”), while Darren asks about the securitisation of development and parallels to the familiar “economics vs security” debate. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj Our thanks go to outgoing AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help with audio editing, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music, and Martyn Pearce for technical assistance in studio.  Relevant links Clare Walsh’s biography: https://dfat.gov.au/about-us/our-people/executive/Pages/biography-of-clare-walsh.aspx