Philokalia Ministries

Tonight we continued our reading of Hypothesis VII on the experience of death for those who have sought to live a virtuous life; how God often offers consolation or aids them by accompanying them through the experience of death. We are presented with one beautiful story after another. But, what becomes evident is that these are not simply to be read as pious stories, but rather something that speaks to how we view life as a whole including our preparation for death. We are reminded how important it is to be present to those who are dying; not just as an obligation but as a privilege to accompany a loved one in this most important moment. The stories also speak to us about the importance of forming our own hearts and those of our children from the earliest ages to understand how present God is to us at every moment of our lives. We need to shape the religious imagination in such a way that it creates within us an urgent longing for what God alone promises. ---- Text of chat during the group: 00:30:16 Joseph Muir: What page are we on? 00:30:28 Eric Williams: 56 00:31:07 Tyler Woloshyn: First saint that comes to mind is St. Rafka, the Maronite nun-Saint, the Lily of Lebanon. 00:43:15 sue and mark: Holy death is a life long process. 00:54:25 Eric Williams: The East has a tradition of reciting the entire psalter over the recently deceased, continuously throughout day and night, if possible. It fell into disuse, but I'm told it's slowly returning. Also returning are families washing and dressing the body, as well as forgoing embalming. 00:59:00 Eric Williams: My wife's family stopped working on their grape farm in the middle of picking when they got news her grandfather was dying. In the midst of that very busy and very important period of time, they dropped everything and showed up at the nursing home in grungy clothes and covered in mud. They were able to be their for his last moments. 00:59:36 Eric Williams: *there (I hate typos :P) 01:03:08 Tyler Woloshyn: It is also chanted on Good Friday  night into Holy Saturday Vigil in front of the Tomb of the Lord. Seminarians would take turns in Kathismatas. 01:04:54 renwitter: My funeral is planned and the program is printed :-D 01:06:41 Joseph Muir: My godfather became an alcoholic, so bad that, when I was a young child, younger than 10,  my parents pulled away. My mom’s dad was an alcoholic, and some of the family wounds (some that are still felt today) were deep enough that they wanted to ensure my not being needlessly exposed to toxicity. Eventually, now in my 20s, he was on his deathbed, dying of sclerosis of his liver, due to decades of hard drinking. We hadn’t seen each other in probably 10+ years, and he was hooked up to a million tubes, and, while “awake”, wasn’t communicative. Even fo this day, I am convinced that our hearts spoke to each other that day, that he apologized for his addiction, since it kept us from having more of a relationship; and, in my heart, I was able to tell him that I forgave him, that I loved him, and that he could be assured of my prayers❤ 01:14:47 Lisa Weidner: An important prayer to pray as someone is dying is the Divine Mercy Chaplet , and after their passing 01:22:17 Eric Williams: I'm always amazed and impressed when I see or hear about children playing "mass", whereas most would play "house, or as knights, or as policemen, firemen, or doctors. 01:25:09 renwitter: There is nothing like the sound of little voices humming “pray for us” (from the litany of our patron saints that we do) as they walk to their cars **heart eyes** 01:28:31 Sharon: Catechesis of the Good Shepherd is a beautiful catechetical model which is a fruit of Maria Montessori’s philosophy of teaching. 01:31:25 carolnypaver: Armata Bianca (White Army) was PadrePio’s vision. 01:37:49 sue and mark: catechesis of the Good Shepherd is excellent!  

Tonight, in Letter 59, St. Theophan continued to guide Anastasia through the writings of Saint Hesychius of Jerusalem. Again we see how deeply connected Theophan is to the spiritual tradition as a whole. The spiritual battle is very simple, albeit not easy. We must show great attentiveness to what is going on internally and with our thoughts. When we see the enemy advance a thought, we must strike it down with anger in the heart and do so swiftly. Most of all we must pray against it, calling upon the name of Jesus Christ in the heart. The fruit of such an exercise is that we begin to walk upon that path of holy contemplation belong to the Saints, immersing ourselves more more deeply into the mysteries of Christ.  It is His Spirit that dwells within us and guides us most of all and that should free us from fear in the battle. When we call upon Christ in that Spirit we lack no power to overcome the attacks of the demons. Theophan also warns Anastasia not to ignore the secret thoughts that can approach the heart. The evil one often begins with what the fathers called “provocation”; thoughts immediately rush in and, if they are met with our thoughts willingly, the passions are stirred. Rather we must seek unceasing silence of any thought in the heart and allow that Spirit to breathe so deeply within us that we are constantly calling upon the Lord. A certain sobriety must guide our actions; we must situate ourselves at the doors of the heart in order that we might see the thoughts creeping up and understand what form the demons are attempting to inscribe and how they are seeking to entice the imagination. --- 00:11:14 Lilly: Hi Nick and Natalia! Happy to see you guys made it! 00:11:28 Nicholas Koeppel: Thank you for the invite Lilly! 01:02:32 renwitter: "Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it anymore, draw back a little and have a cup of tea" ~Elder Sophrony of Essex 01:02:39 renwitter: Or in Fr. David’s case, an espresso 01:02:42 renwitter: Or five 01:03:15 Ashley Kaschl: 😂😂 01:03:37 Joseph Muir: How about some whiskey?😂 01:04:05 Erick Chastain: why not both? Irish coffee 01:04:21 renwitter: Thats a dangerous path away from despair, but works in a pinch ;-) 01:04:25 Joseph Muir: But not five of them😆 01:04:48 Erick Chastain: some ascetic reading group this is LOL 01:05:27 renwitter: Rough day, so I had two beers with dinner tonight, which I thought was pretty indulgent. But there are four left in the fridge if I end up needing five :-D 01:16:46 Katharine M: ^‿^ 01:20:18 Joseph Muir: I got my copy of The Ladder in the mail earlier this week! 01:20:43 Nicholas Koeppel: Thank you

Tonight we began our discussion of Hypothesis VII on the many times that the souls of virtuous people are made cheerful at the time of death by some divine overshadowing. What we find in these paragraphs and the stories that they tell of the experience of those dying being consoled by God, by a vision of angels, or by saints is a portrait of how God has transformed for us the experience of death. For those who draw close to Him in faith and have embraced his grace, the moment is transformed from one of fear or terror to a moment of deep consolation and the experience of the presence of God and of his love. On another level, this speaks to us about the nature of the Incarnation itself. All that has been assumed has been redeemed. This includes the experience of suffering and death. For those who have faith, entering into these realities -  whether our own or others - should be something that we do freely. This is how a Christian is to love. We do not live in isolation from each other; we do not suffer alone or allow others to suffer and die alone. If God comes to the aid of his faithful in these stories, it is to show us what we are to do and be for others at the moment of their death. We are to love as He loves.  We are to enter into the most fearful of experiences and grasp the hand of the person that God has put before us as He will one day take hold of our own. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:13:27 Daniel Allen: What page are we on? 00:13:36 carolnypaver: 51 00:13:56 Daniel Allen: Thank you 00:33:28 carolnypaver: Some of us have no choice… 00:43:32 Jim Milholland: We are always looking to take another bite out of the proverbial apple of knowledge. 00:43:51 Eric Williams: Great way to put it! 00:45:05 Eric Williams: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 00:49:32 Ambrose Little: It’s a memorable anecdote that can make the deeper reflection stick more, though. 00:53:18 Eric Williams: This sort of reminds me of when Jesus told people to not touch Him or hold on to Him because He had yet to ascend. Perhaps we shouldn't see these dying words as treating the wife's touch as sinful or tempting the husband to sin. Rather, he desired to depart this world and join his Lord, and his wife mustn't cling to him, preventing his departure. 00:53:39 Ambrose Little: It’s a backhanded compliment for her. Lolz 01:09:11 Eric Williams: I've read or heard countless stories of Eastern saints from whom fragrant, often miraculously healing, myrrh flowed at death. Are there similar stories from the deaths of Western saints? Is it less common in the West, and if so, why? (This might be too much of a digression, which is why I opted to type rather than raise my hand to speak.) 01:21:06 carolnypaver: “The Fourth Wiseman” (movie)has a good depiction of the leper colony. 01:24:53 Jim Milholland: A pandemic of fear and complacency 01:25:12 Ambrose Little: I could yawn a lot more. :D 01:25:19 Edward Kleinguetl: "The hunger for love is much more difficult to remove than the hunger for bread" (Mother Teresa of Calcutta). 01:29:37 Eric Williams: The Evergetinos: Sponsored by Clorox(TM) 01:31:58 Ashley Kaschl: I think, too, the technology we have (while able to be used for good) gives the illusion of action and participation so it’s easy for people to grow complacent because they think they’re acting by watching, posting, etc. 01:32:06 iPad (32) jeane kish: Outstanding teaching by the Master, Fr. David, thank you! 01:32:34 Jim Milholland: Has the pandemic been a kind of asceticism too?

Tonight we concluded Letter 58 with another wonderful story from Abba John the Dwarf. We are reminded through it that no matter how far we distance ourselves from the passions, they will always seek us out. They will try to lure us back to a position where we will welcome them into our hearts. At that moment, it is most important to run to the inner chamber, the depths of the heart, and embrace the “Ruler“, that is Christ and allow him to restore peace and calm. When we do this, we are told, it will be as if those passions never existed.  In Letter 59, Saint Theophan tells Anastasia that he has told her almost everything about spiritual warfare. There are many passions that approach us in many different ways. But the general method for combating them is the same. What he has set before her is nothing novel. St. Theophan is not an innovator. To show Anastasia this, he begins to quote at length St. Hesychius the priest.  In his writings we see the essence of everything that Theophan has taught. There are four fundamental things that we must have in the spiritual battle: humility, extreme attentiveness, refutation of the thoughts, and prayer. Through these, the ascetic will see the enemy bound or chased away by the honorable name of Jesus like dust in the wind. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:29:44 renwitter: Ashley is going to catch on fire pretty soon :-D 00:52:28 renwitter: Same Anthony. Same. 00:53:39 Ashley Kaschl: Just saw this lol definitely had to blow one out 😂 00:53:46 Eric Williams: Sarcasm? *innocent whistling* 00:59:00 renwitter: They make you just too darn tired to speak unless absolutely necessary :-D 01:00:58 Eric Williams: Before you speak, THINK: Is it TRUE? Is it HELPFUL? Is it INTELLIGENT? Is it NECESSARY? Is it KIND? :) 01:02:45 Eric Williams: or exorcized ;) 01:02:56 Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: ^^^^ 01:03:06 renwitter: Yep. Little demon child. 01:03:31 Daniel Allen: Oh that’s just a day in the life haha 01:03:33 Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: I can dunk it in the baptismal font! porblem solved! 01:03:43 Eric Williams: "St. Theophan would not approve of your behavior, child!" 01:03:51 Erick Chastain: can we have another session on Fridays that just consist of Fr David telling stories? 01:04:06 renwitter: I think they need a proper Byzantine exorcism. 01:04:28 Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: haha yep!

We read the Fathers in the way that we read the Scriptures; with a profound humility and knowledge that we lack perfect understanding. There are no experts in the desert Fathers any more than there are experts in the Faith or the Scriptures. When confronted with eternal realities, whether that reality be the eternal love of God or that of Hell one is compelled to sit in silence. When reading the Evergetinos this silence must be that of one who has a docile heart, a heart that is teachable. The heart that is teachable understands that it must suspend judgment and gradually allow God to pull back the veil that limits its vision. It is the pure of heart who come to see God. This we must acknowledge - that in the face of our sin we are not going to see and understand things clearly, much less eternal realities. We must humbly gaze upon our God with the eyes of love and through the ascetical life we must set aside the self that we so often make the idol that we worship. Tonight we reflected in Hypothesis VI upon the glory of the Saints and the joys of heaven. Yet, we do so knowing that we see so little. We hold on to these things with hope. We hope in the One who has promised us life. We hope in the One who has died for our sins.  Most often this experience expresses the full measure and limit of our faith. We cling to the God who has revealed himself in His only begotten Son. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:01:46 The Pittsburgh Oratory: https://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/ammoun-sisoes-path-evergetinos-michael-centore/?fbclid=IwAR2KR3EEARnefZjqAky5KEwWYcBCUqKRs9VyX6s0RUC_fkKjILHI8GmeM14 00:01:56 The Pittsburgh Oratory: A must read!! 00:01:56 Robyn: Hi Father, hi everyone 00:04:09 The Pittsburgh Oratory: https://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/ammoun-sisoes-path-evergetinos-michael-centore/?fbclid=IwAR2KR3EEARnefZjqAky5KEwWYcBCUqKRs9VyX6s0RUC_fkKjILHI8GmeM14 00:11:52 The Pittsburgh Oratory: https://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/ammoun-sisoes-path-evergetinos-michael-centore/?fbclid=IwAR2KR3EEARnefZjqAky5KEwWYcBCUqKRs9VyX6s0RUC_fkKjILHI8GmeM14 00:20:35 Tyler Woloshyn: Newly baptized and newly illuminated infants, are new temples of the Holy Spirit. In a certain sense bowing to the Holy Spirit. Just a quick thought. 00:35:36 Lilly Crystal: 1 Corinthians 2:9 “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man, The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” There IS joy in suffering, though few know how to embrace it with love. We must take up our cross, no matter how heavy, and follow Him! :) 01:07:42 Eric Williams: St Ephraim wouldn't think highly of universal salvation theologies, it seems. 01:31:01 Erick Chastain: yep 01:32:03 Lilly Crystal: Thank you Father!

Our thoughts this evening and discussion revolved around a mere two paragraphs of Letter 58.  Yet it is here that Saint Theophan draws Anastasia into the heart of the spiritual life; he teaches her about spiritual warfare and the prayer that is needed to engage in the battle. Through the attention of the mind moving into the heart through unceasing prayer one is not only united to God but protected from passionate thoughts, feelings, or desires as they arise. This is an unending battle while we are on this earth.  Theophan would have Anastasia understand that she cannot enter into this half-heartedly. One is all whole Saint or no saint at all. One cannot live with one foot in the world and one foot in the kingdom or with a heart divided.  We must give our hearts to Christ alone. Anastasia, therefore, must not let her thoughts wander indiscriminately. For if one does it will often trigger memories, the imagination and the recollection of past sins and so trigger new ones or make us more vulnerable. When she sees such things arise she must rush to seek shelter once again in the heart before the Lord. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:06:43 Lilly: Welcome Kevin, another Canadian! :) 00:22:06 Lilly: I was told the prayer rope's tassel is meant for wiping tears, so I think emotion is good during prayer? Just a thought 00:57:40 renwitter: Talk them over with your guardian angel every night :-D 00:59:55 Lilly: @ren yes!! :) 01:01:29 Mary McLeod: Padre Pio had all his spiritual children go at least once a week 01:01:29 John Clark: The Way Of The Pilgrim can be found on kindle for $3.99. 01:07:28 Jim Milholland: Great stuff! So grateful!  

“What will become of me?“ Such a simple question but one that clarifies the importance of the moment for us as men and women of faith. Where do we live our lives? What do we seek, what do we love and desire? These simple questions turn out to be the most important for us because in the end they shape our identity and the path that we take. Moving on to Hypothesis VI, we began to consider the end of that path which is the glory of Heaven and of the Saints. We must foster a longing and develop an appetite now for the Divine. We must have a “nostalgia” for our homeland, remembering in hope the promises of God and understanding that while we are in this world we are also in exile. We are to seek to allow ourselves to be nourished more and more upon the things that foster not only strength of virtue but depth of desire for God. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:03:46 carolnypaver: Does the baby Miron have a Confirmation name? 00:29:39 Joseph Muir: Put the book title here in the chat, Daniel!!!!!!! 00:30:28 Erick Chastain: Lauris? 00:31:28 Daniel Allen: Laurus. The only thing I have ever read that is similar to it are the works of Dostoyevsky. 00:32:30 Erick Chastain: I have a copy but I haven't read it! 00:37:52 Joseph Muir: I’m a huge Russian literature fan,  Dostoyevsky in particular (I’ve probably read the Brothers Karamazov 3 times) 00:40:14 renwitter: I am as well Joe! I read Laurus a while back, and have always loved Dostoyevsky, but I have to say that Solzhenitsyn is #1 for me. 00:42:08 Joseph Muir: I’ve never read anything from Solzhenitsyn, but am more than open to recommendations! 01:02:34 renwitter: Wow. That is amazing Ambrose. Thank you.

Tonight we began Letter 58.  St. Theophan begins to teach Anastasia about importance of prayer in the spiritual battle. He has already shown her the various stages of temptation that lead to the development of a passion. However, he acknowledges that such understanding serves little use when one is in the midst of warfare. What is most important is rejecting the thoughts, feelings, and desires that lead to a passion and to do so with extreme prejudice. This is the one instance where wrath is allowed. We must strike down a sinful thought immediately. However, in the face of the relentless activity of the demons this may not be fully effective. In fact, most often it is not. Rather, what is most important in the spiritual life is the constant turning of the mind and the heart toward God through brief aspirations; especially the Jesus Prayer. We must not let our thoughts wander. Nor, must we simply seek to expose the obscenity of the passion. We must not enter a verbal altercation. It is only in turning the mind and the heart to God swiftly that prevent the temptations from penetrating. When the eye of the heart is fixed upon God we rest upon the everlasting rock. We find our security in the spiritual battle in God alone. Thus, we must flee to Him.   --- Text of chat during the group: 00:05:26 Art: Fr.  David I’ll be listening online.  With things going back to normal I’m back doing the “soccer mom” thing but in my case it’s the Jiu Jitsu dad. 00:05:55 Art: glad to be here 00:06:09 Art: nope sitting in the dojo 00:17:42 renwitter: Reservations for The Ladder of Divine Ascent books are now open! If you would like a book, please text me (Ren) at 603-341-4974 or email me at info@pittsburghoratory.org. Books can be picked up at the Oratory, or shipped (at cost) to any of the States or Canada. Please use the following link to pay for your copy once your reservation is confirmed: www.pghco.org/books . There are three price points: $26 for the book, $34ish for the book + shipping in the US, and $46 for the book and shipping to Canada. We have 46 copies, so we should be able to accommodate everyone who would like one, at least at first. God bless! 00:18:22 renwitter: pghco.org/books 00:18:41 Lisa Weidner: Thank you, Ren 00:20:44 renwitter: Also, for anyone wondering. The edition Father David will be using will be the blue, hardcover edition currently being published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery Press 00:55:19 Andrew Ewell: Thanks Ren that's great 00:57:08 sue and mark: yes, thank you ren 00:58:24 renwitter: Jesus Prayers all the time!! 01:04:29 Andrew Ewell: Beautiful story 01:05:32 Andrew Ewell: Yes!! 01:15:42 Art: Welcome Ashley.  Glad to see someone else from The Valley (Phx)

Such power in a few words. Perhaps this is what makes the writings of the Fathers so compelling. In a few brief sentences or in the short story they capture for us the very essence of the life of faith. We begin to see with a kind of radical simplicity, a simplicity perhaps with which we are uncomfortable, the clear focus that we are to have in our pursuit of God. We must allow nothing to prevent our movement towards Him. We have been promised a share in life eternal; where the joy of life will have no end, where intimacy will have no limitations, where there will be no fear or anxiety. This is what our hearts are to be set upon; this is what spurs us on to travel the narrow path in the pursuit of God and the things of the kingdom. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:19:00 Lisa Weidner: Hello, 00:19:17 Lisa Weidner: What page are we reading?  thank you 00:19:24 carolnypaver: 44 00:20:00 Lisa Weidner: thanks! 00:25:25 Joseph Muir: This passage reminds me of a common Byzantine prayer for the dead: “O Christ our God, with the saints grant rest to the soul of your departed servant, in a place where there is no pain, no grief, no sighing, but everlasting life.” 00:25:52 carolnypaver: Lovely. 00:53:51 Tyler Woloshyn: Once again it connects to me liturgically with this excerpt.  Sixth Ode for Preparation of Holy Communion: "Whirled about in the abyss of sin, I appeal to the unfathomable abyss of Your Compassion: Raise me, O God, from corruption."   "Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me."  "O Savior, sanctify my mind and soul, my heart and body, and deem me worthy to approach Your awesome Mysteries without condemnation." "Cast me not from Your presence, nor deprive me of Your Holy Spirit." "O Christ, grant that I may be ride of my passions and grow in Your grace. May I be strengthened and confirmed in life by communion of Your holy Mysteries." 00:54:53 carolnypaver: Wow! 01:01:36 Eric Williams: I remember when watching Brother Sun, Sister Moon was a traditional experience at Oratory retreats. ;) 01:02:26 Tyler Woloshyn: It has been a movie that a vocations director recommended people watch. On my to watch list. 01:02:54 Carole DiClaudio: Good to know; I’ve never watched it. 01:03:36 carolnypaver: Very 1970’s but the message is there. 01:06:24 Wayne Mackenzie: Brother Sun, Brother Moon.. 01:07:20 carolnypaver: Yep. 01:08:19 Carole DiClaudio: ?? 01:09:16 Wayne Mackenzie: It's the name of the movie about St.Fancis  

Tonight St. Theophan continues to take Anastasia through the various stages where one gradually gives  oneself over to the passion. There is no obligation to commit a sin; there is only a kind of inner self-delusion taking place. We might not commit a sin but nonetheless we are giving ourselves over to the inclination and by considering the thoughts that lead to the passion they become written upon our hearts. This being so, we inevitably become more vulnerable to future attacks. It is for this reason that we must prevent ourselves from getting to the point where we begin to pre-meditate on how to commit an act of sin. Theophan warns Anastasia that the fear of God as easily set aside as is our conscience. Both are dismissed and we move swiftly away from them in order to feel uninhibited in the committing of a sin. Having reached this stage we are unable to strike it out of our hearts easily simply through a kind of verbal denial. The inclination to the sin attaches itself to us and we begin to taste its unpleasant fruits. Grace then deserts us and we feel the weight of the sin crush us. We expect paradise from the satisfaction of the passion. We mimic Adam and Eve who gave themselves over to the delusion - “For ye shall be as gods.” However, when the delusion fails, we find ourselves simply diminished and our hearts filled with anguish and emptiness. And so, Theophan tells Anastasia that she must act quickly to banish such thoughts, desires, and feelings as soon as they manifest themselves. Procrastination is our enemy. Drive away the thought, the feeling, the desire, and the inclination toward the passion disappears.   ---- Text of chat during the group: 00:23:06 Mark Cummings: This book should be required reading in Catholic high schools 00:23:53 Joseph Muir: Sadly, I imagine that it wouldn’t readily be considered, due to the author be a saint of the Orthodox Church, and not Catholic 00:24:57 Mark Cummings: sadly, probably true 00:32:46 Joseph Muir: To be fair, I do think that, in a very real sense, Eastern Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity’s best kept secret. Point being, many simply never come in contact with some of these great writers, and some even know the Greek fathers of the church do the degree that they’re commemorated on the western calendar. The difference with an Eastern Christian is that the theology of these saints is lived and breathed in the daily Byzantine prayers 00:33:50 Joseph Muir: One is far more likely to come in contact with non-Catholic luminaries like CS Lewis than St Theophane the Recluse 00:37:56 Mark Cummings: It took me 55 years to find Saint Theophan. I read 7 or so CS Lewis books by the time I was 18 00:37:58 John Clark: I think the nuns that taught at my school missed the memo on the anger passion..We were criminally assaulted numerous times....personally 20 times ....mostly beat with boards.....the last time for me was a round house sucker punch closed fist by a beefy nun in the 7th grade.. 00:39:02 Wayne Mackenzie: Agreed, including the Divine Liturgy, the hours and other prayers have the theme of repentance and purity of heart. 00:39:03 Andrew Ewell: Would Cassian’s list of passions be a straightforward list across the board of the passions which the Father’s have in mind? 00:40:24 Andrew Ewell: Ok 00:45:07 Joseph Muir: I’m sorry that you had to go through that, John Clark😞 00:46:57 Mark Cummings: John, that is horrible. Robin might say "Holy PTSD, Batman" I am sorry to hear that you went through that 00:47:18 Wayne Mackenzie: John, Corporal punishment was very common in schools at one time.. 00:53:10 St. Elias: “I became as a deaf man…” Psalm 37 (Matins) 00:54:34 Erick Chastain: The difference between theophany/climacus and Aquinas is the difference between the stoics and Aristotle basically 00:56:14 Edward Kleinguetl: Abba Isaiah of Scetis believes that the passions were distorted:  The person, then, who wishes to attain this natural state removes all his carnal desires in order that God may establish him in the state according to nature. Desire is the natural state of intellect because without desire for God there is no love … but the enemy twisted this into shameful desire, a desire for every impurity. Ambition, also, is the natural state of the intellect for without ambition there is no progress toward God, as it is written in the epistle, be ambitious of the higher gifts [1 Cor. 12:31]. However, our godly ambition has been turned into an ambition that is contrary to nature, so we are jealous, envious, and deceitful toward each other. 00:56:28 Erick Chastain: Aquinas harmonizes the two as follows: the passions according to the eastern fathers (influenced by the stoics through evagrius) are inordinate passions in the Aquinas sense. For Aquinas, the passions themselves if they are according to nature/reason are without sin 00:57:12 Andrew Ewell: Thanks Eric 00:57:33 Joseph Muir: I stumbled upon this last night, but found it to be a fascinating read (it’s a long discussion/debate between Catholics and Orthodox regarding various aspects of Greek vs Latin theology; I found the arguments on both sides to generally be very cogent and respectful, with my hot take being that our differences are far less vast than some of our more polemical apologists may make it seem): http://forums.orthodoxchristianity.net/threads/body-blood-soul-and-divinity-of-the-eucharist.77167/?fbclid=IwAR28KWJBA2fR0i27SiTkzOea19PjCWN9lfmkwGduGK8OuEqFtiJT8-JcvTs 00:59:46 Andrew Ewell: Thanks Joe 01:03:47 sue and mark: exodus 90 is great! 01:04:38 Mark Cummings: Exodus 90 is great...I would not tie it directly to the desert fathers though