Philokalia Ministries

Tonight we picked up with Step, 14 on “that clamorous mistress, the stomach“. Climacus begins to draw us into a discussion of one of the most important and neglected spiritual practices - fasting and the struggle with gluttony.  This is a struggle, Saint John tells us, that remains with us through our entire life. Our desire for food or our misuse of food is something that is part of the very fabric of our life. It is a bodily appetite. Not unlike other appetites, it must be ordered toward the good or in the way that is in accord with the wisdom of God.  Yet, John tells us, gluttony is hypocrisy of the stomach. In a sense it deceives us. Even when we are filled, it tells us that we are empty, and even when we are bursting, it “cries out that it is hungry.“.  It also leads us to devise seasonings, and sweet and rich dishes. The moment that we think that we have control of it, it shows itself in another area of our life. Unchecked, it leads to something even more serious - fornication. If we do not order this basic appetite for food, then we are going to be disordered and the use of our other bodily appetites, including our sexual appetite. And so, St. John tells us that he who coddles the body makes it wilder.  If we do not control it, then it will overcome us.  If we are self-aware, we know we eat for many different reasons. On an emotional level, we often eat to console ourselves or because we are feeling aggressive or anxiety. We distract ourselves and deal with feelings of emptiness by filling our bodies with food. There are many ways that we convince ourselves that restraining ourselves is inappropriate. For example, we tell ourselves that hospitality demands that we break our fasting practices. Rather than being honest with ourselves and others, we freely let go of these disciplines, not out of love for others but to satisfy our baser needs. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:14:38 Bonnie Lewis: I agree wholeheartedly!   00:15:46 Bonnie Lewis: Let's do it.   00:16:35 CMoran: Was it Rod Dreher?   00:36:57 Anthony: On Fasting, I recall sayings from people like St. Paisios to the effect that we live like pagans since we neglect prayer and fasting.  I wonder if there is an inverse correlation between a failure to fast and pray and the increased use of unwholesome images.   00:38:05 Jeff O.: Is there a reason or importance in the way Climacus orders anger and acedia before gluttony/fornication/greed etc on the ladder? I just find it interesting the order of things and the way he presents the vices   00:42:30 David Swiderski: What is the best practice in fasting. I fasted with a Syrian roommate a couple years he for Ramadan me for Lent. The hardest was no water all day which could be dangerous. What was strange most Muslims gain weight and have huge feasts every night and before the sunrose would drink juices to excess.   00:53:24 Anthony: I was talking about Easter Grain pie within the last 90 minutes....   00:56:49 Eric Ewanco: If we go over to someone's house during a fasting/abstinence period, how should we handle this if they plan food that breaks the discipline?   00:57:07 angelo: Reacted to "If we go over to som..." with 👍   00:58:24 Ambrose Little, OP: Well, our Lord did tell us to not appear to be fasting. 🙂   00:58:37 Eric Ewanco: Reacted to "Well, our Lord did t..." with 👏🏻   01:01:08 Ambrose Little, OP: “When you give, do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing.” There does seem to be an impetus to “hide” our discipline and good works, to avoid pride.   01:01:14 Bonnie Lewis: excellent Father   01:01:17 Brad Smith: Your reference to hospitality as an excuse for gluttony seems the height of fornication (paragraph 1) as it is essentially to use the other person as a means to our own ends; gluttony is to misuse God’s good creation for our self-centered ends. Yes?   01:02:07 Brad Smith: I meant paragraph 5…Brad   01:02:07 Ambrose Little, OP: So we can’t win. LOL   01:04:37 CMoran: A few of my casual Catholic friends think that no meat on Friday has been done away with after the reforms.   01:05:43 CMoran: Not even knowing that some other penance is required.   01:08:28 Helena Babington Guiles: He who is in us is greater than he who is  in the world…and when we commune with Him within, His  nourishment exceeds any other.   01:10:49 Ren Witter: I am going to someone’s house for dinner tomorrow, and they already know I am vegetarian so I was going to just go and eat what was there, but I literally just texted them to say I can’t have eggs or cheese 😄. It makes me feel strangely anxious 🤣 I also told them to blame Father David 😄   01:11:09 Bonnie Lewis: Reacted to "I am going to someon..." with 😂   01:11:20 angelo: can we replace fasting with good works? This was my experience years ago when I was aspirant in a religious community.   01:14:07 Eric Ewanco: You can't "beat your body and make it your slave" (St. Paul) by doing good works   01:14:13 carol nypaver: We should not make others “suffer” because of our sacrifices. Right?   01:15:35 Rebecca Thérèse: I thought that the recommendation for a fast day was two small meals OR one large one, is that what you meant?   01:16:18 Debra: I gave up coffee on Lent...and my family suffered lol   01:17:16 Eric Ewanco: @rebecca the requirement is one meal, and up to two smaller meals not adding up to another meal as needed to maintain your strength   01:17:18 Ren Witter: Replying to "I thought that the r..."   In the Latin Rite the official rule is “one large meal, and two small meals that do not together equal one large meal” and yes, its pretty lame :-D   01:17:25 Ren Witter: Reacted to "@rebecca the require..." with 👍   01:17:49 carol nypaver: When I have to prepare a meal for someone who is “wheat-free,” meat-free, dairy-free makes me not want to host them.  They don’t have allergies, just sacrificing these things.  That makes me “suffer."   01:17:58 Bonnie Lewis: No, don't Father.  Amen   01:18:25 Rebecca Thérèse: @Ren thanks   01:20:05 Ambrose Little, OP: Here’s the USCCB on the topic: https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-year-and-calendar/lent/us-bishops-pastoral-statement-on-penance-and-abstinence     The focus seems to be about internalizing and owning our asceticism (as Christian adults) rather than having it spoon fed to us in a one-size-fits-all approach. But the important part of the message seems to have been lost on many.   01:21:05 Eric Ewanco: "many" is an understatement   01:21:30 Bonnie Lewis: I never hear this spoken on from the pulpit.   01:22:17 Ren Witter: Replying to "When I have to prepa..."   Its actually a pretty reasonable thought - “don’t host them” when I think about it. If I had friends, and they were strictly kosher for instance, it would be basically impossible for me to host them because I don’t know how to cook that way. At that point, its better if we go to a kosher restaurant, or if I simply go to their home and play with the kids while they cook.   01:22:48 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂   01:23:26 CMoran: Thank you Father...excellent session...most necessary for me!   01:23:35 angelo: Thank you   01:23:37 Jeff O.: Thank you!   01:23:44 Cath Lamb: Thank you!   01:23:44 Debra: Thank you Father! This was really good!   01:23:47 iPhone (2): Thank you!   01:25:02 David Swiderski: Thank you father!  

As we move more deeply into the first volume of the Evergetinos - reading hypothesis 38 - we find ourselves also being drawn more deeply into the mystery of humility and obedience. The wisdom of God, revealed in our Lord through his incarnation and through the Paschal mystery, shows us the vulnerability of divine love and humility. For the love of us Christ empties himself, becomes a slave and obedient unto death on the cross. It is upon him that we must fix our gaze if we are not to be drawn into the illusions of pride.  Religious people are not above having their own delusions; including and especially the delusion of holiness. We hold on to the demands of our ego. Pride rules our will.  Thus, we were given multiple stories this evening of God in his providence guiding souls along a path He desires and presenting them with circumstances that unexpectedly revealed to them these greater truths. There is so much of us that is prideful that we are often blind to the humble ways that God comes to us and reject those through whom He speaks to us. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:14:43 FrDavid Abernethy: page 314 letter C   00:23:57 Anthony: Is this the concept of "doing Purgatory" now so you don't have to go to Purgatory later?   00:39:57 Anthony: On preaching the gospel, among "Evangelicals," there is an emphasis of calling someone to recognize their sin and "accept Christ."  That doesn't seem to be the Catholic tradition, is it?  In the Bible it seems only prophets did that and we are not prophets.   00:47:24 Eric Ewanco: think you missed a paragraph?   01:13:16 Anthony: This so goes against modern education.  The intellect is separated from morals and we are taught to set ourselves up as judges   01:17:04 Anthony: "you have many teachers but not many fathers"  

INTERIORIZED MONASTICISM PART II FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENTS • Prayer • Eschatological Maximalism • Evangelical Counsels as Seen through Three Temptations of Christ in the Desert: 1. Poverty Next Week: Chastity: the Sacredness of Creation and the Virginity of Heart that Should Belong to All Obedience to God: Receptivity to the Spirit of Truth and the Creative Freedom of the Life of Grace.

How do we talk about and understand despondency? I never heard about the word or the nature of the vice until I was in my 20s and after having read the fathers. And yet we hear from the fathers that it is the greatest and gravest of the eight capital vices. It afflicts the soul in such a way that it draws it into darkness. The soul loses its capacity to see the presence of God or to love the things of God. It becomes most dangerous when we are engaged in the spiritual life in isolation; either as those who live the life of a hermit, or as those who see the spiritual life as a private affair.  We live in a radical solidarity with each other, and with God. Our understanding of this, and our embrace of that reality may be the one thing that keeps us from falling into a general death.  This demon uses the most subtle forms of temptation to make us lax in our spiritual practice or come to despise it all together. There are very few remedies for it for this reason. One must remember death and the brevity of our life. We must understand that we are in the end times and see the urgency of the moment. We must also cling to obedience; placing our thoughts before another and allow them to guide us when we cannot see the path before us.  Prayer filled with hope, St. John tells us, is the only thing that brings this vice to utter death. Only when we cling to He who is life and love and hope and let go of the illusion that we can simply endure the spiritual trials of this world on our own will this vice be conquered. But once it is conquered, a person has come to experience all that is good; they are prepared for every spiritual battle that lies ahead. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:19:17 David: Question on translation: Acedia wouldn't this be closer to insouciant or melancholy rather than despondency?   00:35:37 Daniel Allen: Despondency is a child of talkativeness but community life is opposed to it? That seems sort of contradictory.   00:37:21 Anthony: The spirit of despondency also perverts a concept of what it means to be "elect": I am the only true one, everyone is against me."  That's not a good place to be.   00:37:51 Daniel Allen: As a follow up it seems that despondency is always a lurking threat.   00:38:32 Daniel Allen: Ok that clears it up thank you   00:41:21 Cindy Moran: Noonday Devil from Ps 90:6 [DRV]   00:43:22 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: Also, many monks would not eat before 3 pm so beginning around midday hunger and hungers may start.   00:46:55 Anthony: The dinner bell represents hope that suffering will end.   00:59:02 Kathy: What do you mean by deification?   01:00:26 Eric Ewanco: Deification is become by grace what Christ was by nature -- becoming God-like, sharing in the divinity of Christ as he shared in our humanity, being partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3-4)   01:01:26 Anthony: A great Roman Catholic imagery / interpretation of deification is in Dante's "Paradiso," especially the later cantos.   01:02:14 Kathy: Thanks   01:06:45 Daniel Allen: St Therese - “May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be.”   01:06:59 Kristen Brotemarkle: beautiful quote, thanks for sharing that. ^   01:09:55 Liz: Sorry, what´s the name of the author Father is talking about?   01:10:26 Anthony: Paul Evdekimov   01:10:32 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: Paul Evdokimov   01:10:35 Liz: Thank you!!!   01:18:25 Ambrose Little, OP: Gender equality. Very modern.   01:20:56 Jeff O.: It seems like despondency (and gluttony as well) have a tendency or propensity to draw us towards numbing…which, paired with the nature of our culture which attempts to provide numbing or comforting in all things seems like an almost double whammy of sorts…   01:21:34 Anthony: Reacted to "It seems like desp..." with 👍   01:24:21 Kristen Brotemarkle: Reacted to "It seems like despon..." with 👍   01:37:38 Art: Got me too!   01:38:30 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂   01:38:53 Rodrigo Castillo: That is a great idea!  The forum!   01:39:53 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father...rich teaching tonight.   01:39:57 Jeff O.: This was great! Thank you.   01:40:07 David: Thank you father!  

How does one approach something such as grumbling and murmuring against others, or complaining about what our judgment and sensibilities react to negatively in our lives? How is it that we suspend that judgment? Beyond this, how is it that we let it go all together and allow ourselves to be drawn along in the darkness of faith; where God alone illuminates the path before us to draw us into the truth and the love of the kingdom?    The short answer to all of these questions is: through experience. Only God can reveal to the human heart that has the faith, perhaps only the size of a mustard seed, the depths of His mind and His truth. The greatest miracle, if you will, is to move the mountain of our ego and self-esteem. Our passions make it so difficult to keep our focus solely upon God, upon his love, and upon the truth that is being revealed to us.    These stories are not about disciples being slavishly obedient to their masters no matter what the circumstances. In fact, the stories given to us tonight were how novices and disciples, who were pure of heart, were able to see the truth with clarity and bring about the conversion of their Elders who had lost their way. The stories are presented to us in order that we would not be tempted into condescension. We must understand that God can reprove us and correct us in the most unexpected of ways. What these hypotheses (36 & 37) reveal to us is the preeminence of humility and love. Age, experience or depth of discipline are no guarantee that we will see the truth or embrace it. May God have mercy and illuminate our hearts. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:12:16 FrDavid Abernethy: page 309   00:12:34 FrDavid Abernethy: On Grumbling :-)   00:33:19 Eric Ewanco: In terms of grumbling, I was listening today to a podcast on joy and the speaker pointed out that the early Christians did not even complain about Nero (who took Christians, covered them with tar, and lit them to shed light on his parties), but kept their focus on God and their own faith, and cultivating joy in the midst of persecution. A good lesson for us today in the hostile environment we live in where Christians tend to get distracted by their grumbling over the circumstances.   00:48:21 Eric Ewanco: Doesn't this just contradict everything we've heard previously about the value and importance of unalloyed obedience?   01:16:26 Anthony: "Father David, Build My Church, which you can see is in ruins"?   01:19:56 Ambrose Little, OP: It seems like the habit of humility teaches us to see more clearly. Humility as “true self knowledge,” but with that practice of patience with yourself and with others, not jumping to conclusions and avoiding rashly adopting opinions of others. You give yourself time and suppress the passions that can interfere with being open to seeing things as they really are. So that practice of humble obedience is at least in part what helps us to see more clearly when it might be right to not obey—or at least not obey in particulars in order to be obedient in a a deeper way, as with that disciple tonight.  

I have one word for tonight‘s group: Beautiful! Repentance “brings to us the power of the living God, revealing once again, the true Christ Jesus who dwells in us.” As with so many aspects of the faith, we have a tendency to compartmentalize not only the practice of virtue or of prayer but of our relationship with God as a whole. Yet our faith and our relationship with God should touch the very fabric of our beings and shape the essence of every relationship and every work that we engage in throughout the course of our lives. It should shape also our experience of death and our realization of our own mortality. Repentance is not an episodic reality but a continual effort, the continual straining of the heart - reaching out to God to experience his love and mercy. In this sense it is the most important of things. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:06:18 sue and mark: microphone is not working   00:08:33 Ren Witter: PDF Handout: https://mcusercontent.com/c38acab568d650f7ef65f39df/files/34558acb-864f-f9f8-1546-e7decdc9605b/Repentance.pdf   00:34:44 charlesevers: What gets us (causes) trapped into thinking of past sins?   00:34:55 Irene Bridget Hutchinson: Fr, how would a scrupulous person go about being constantly repentant with peace of soul?   00:44:00 David: The past few years I have also focused on taking time in prayer and adoration to express gratitude and thanksgiving. Isn't it equality important to give thanks as to deepen repentance. No amount of regret changes the past, no amount of worry will change the future but any gratitude will change the present.   00:50:52 charlesevers: Very good. Thank you Father.  Excellent explanation.   00:55:37 charlesevers: St. Bonaventure wrote a colloquay   01:12:54 Rachel : Yes. Only true Beauty. Most,. I include myself, can tend to misuse t|   01:21:53 Missi White: That's a tough pill to swallow, especially in what has become such a narcissistic culture.  How I needed this conference, thank you!   01:24:26 Art: Helpful reminder for me at times: But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (Jn 1:12-13)   01:25:21 Bonnie Lewis: I have found that when I pray for someone who is causing me to harbor a resentment toward them, I am the one who changes internally.  The other person may remain exactly how they were, yet I have received a peace of mind and thought toward them.  This doesn't happen overnight.  sometimes it takes some time.   01:36:29 Rachel : Who wrote the book? A continual effort. With no temptation or battle a soldier is not made stronger through resisting. St. Faustina, and  St Therese had clear experiences of people who tried their patience. They felt the irritation. Its not like the new lens that Father is speaking of will mean that somone will not need to actively practice patience but that the life of repentence, living constantly in the presence of God, in Truth, the person "drunk with compunction" just simply cannot not forgive when they see who they really are in Christ and the dignity of others as well. All mankind seen through the lens of love   01:37:12 Rachel : This book should be gone through very slowly.   01:41:33 Rachel : I think Ren mentioned that this past year in a group! I need to get that book.   01:44:13 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father David.  This was beautiful.   01:44:15 David: Thank you Father!   01:44:27 charlesevers: Thank you Father.  This was wonderful   01:44:30 Lori Hatala: so very helpful.   01:44:31 Rachel : lol   01:44:31 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂   01:44:32 Melissa Kummerow: Yes thank you! I like the occasional "bonus" groups :)   01:44:34 Rachel : Thank you   01:45:17 Rachel : Thank you   01:45:18 Lorraine Green: Thank you   01:45:26 Cindy Moran: I hope Father's talj will be available for what I missed.   01:45:27 Rachel : Praying for you   01:45:31 Mary Jo: Thank you !!   01:45:31 Mitch: Very profound. Thankyou Father take care  

INTRODUCTION TO INTERIORIZED MONASTICISM Interiorized Monasticism and Ascetic Ideal: • Obscured: Out of reach to majority. • Revealed: Fundamental principle of life in Christ. Eschatological Dimensions: Obscured: Life cut off from the world or world cut off from life of the kingdom. Revealed: Incarnation and kingdom of God present; Kingdom within through gift of the Spirit (active eschatology, touching every aspect of the world; living now in light of the End). Beauty Saves the World: Obscured: Culture as cult, autonomous from God and guided by sensibilities of the age. Revealed: Rediscovery of culture through the beauty of holiness. Jesus is the Holy One - the most beautiful of the sons of men. He is the perfect icon, manifesting God unveiled. The Monastic Ideal: Obscured: Return to the ancient forms of monastic ascesis. Revealed: Internalized. The human psyche is renewed from within. Five Fundamental Elements of Interiorized Monasticism (Upcoming Lectures): • Prayer • Eschatological Maximalism • Poverty • Chastity • Obedience

Tonight we read Step number 12 on Lying. Surprisingly this has always been a challenging step to read and to read as a group. Immediately our minds begin to swirl with the costs of loving the Truth and understanding that Truth is a person. Our starting point in such discussions is often examples that are extreme; things or circumstances that people might face within this life where lying might be justified. St. John addresses this and much more within the step. However, one has to be willing to suspend judgment and allow St. John to guide us along a path that deepens our sensitivity in regards to the Truth as a whole. Our starting point must be Christ. We must begin to understand that lying is a sin against charity, and to lie when making a vow or an oath is a denial of God himself. St. John understands very well that the Evil One can use something as innocent and enjoyable as humor to justify and to legitimize lying.  Yet, John tells us that there are no small lies and once spoken they have an effect upon ourselves and others. They diminish the spirit of mourning; that is, compunction within the human heart. In doing so they distract us from the remembrance of God and the things of God. We must remember that God has given us a conscience, a means of knowing the truth with Him. This is what we must form through the gospel and through our participation in the life of Christ. We must also remember that the Evil One is the Father of Lies and will use a lie under the pretext of protecting others. In the face of this, St. John tells us, “when we are completely cleansed of lying, then we can resort to it, but only with fear and as occasion demands.” Only when the heart has been completely purified, where there is no love of falsehood and where there is the presence of great discernment, can such a decision be made. To love truth, St. John tells us, is the root of every good because it is to love Christ. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:25:04 Anthony Rago: I've also been thinking that our bodies and societies are parables of truth; and we can be lying by engaging in bad lifestyles.   00:37:35 Anthony Rago: I can imagine a confessor becoming very exasperated if we treat all this as confessable sins; and it would be very wearing on all of us.   00:39:28 David Swiderski: Like many other things isn't discernment take a place here. Is this so people will think I am funny (pride), will this hurt someone, will it erode trust (the cost of lies) or lead to a habit?   00:39:39 Anthony Rago: That makes sense, thanks   00:40:57 Cindy Moran: Corrie ten Boom  lied to the Nazis when they asked if jews were in the house. This is ok?   00:44:09 Ren Witter: I feel like this is a really hard one. Intellectually, I actually feel like it is easy to understand. Emotionally, it kind of feels like one of those instances where being Christian can feel like a “kill-joy” to put it in a light way. Maybe the immense anxiety I feel in response to this is coming from the fear that being a Christian means no joy or every-day happiness. Its weird because I know that that isn’t true, but sometimes it can be hard to reconcile the lived experience of Christianity with the things the Fathers write.   00:46:34 Debra: Replying to "Corrie ten Boom  lie..."   I've read a priest's response to this, is Yes, it's ok; because the Nazis didn't have a right to what's going on in their home That we have dignity, and a right to privacy   I'm interested to hear what Fr Abernethy says 😄   00:55:06 Anthony Rago: With humor - movies, comedy routines, Facebook - it is easy to go along, and then the story teller sneaks in covert of blatant evil things, and "bam," there they are in the head, coming to mind in an ambush when they are most unwelcome.   01:04:10 Daniel Allen: Ok so this may be making a little more sense to me. If the concern is with Truth, and Truth is a person, then we can have a tendency to come between Truth and another person (between the other and his remembrance of Truth Himself), which sort of reminds me of two parts of the Gospel - better to have a millstone tied around your neck and cast into the sea than to cause the fall of one of these little ones, and also, what God has joined let no man divide. Neither are traditionally applied to this type of thought, but if by our jesting, and always (or often) making light of things we can get between a person and his remembrance of God (or mourning), then in a way we are doing just that on a spiritual level, dividing the person from his remembrance of God. We can (generally unintentionally) get between God and another person, and generally to pump up our own ego. The lying part makes sense, it’s the joking that’s hard to get.   01:11:37 Jacqulyn: Proverbs 26:18-19 - Like a maniac shooting flaming arrows of death is one who deceives their neighbor and says, "I was only joking."   01:15:40 Debra: Cindy Moran, up above, asked about that very point   01:20:23 David Swiderski: The trap of whataboutism deflects from a general truth   01:23:09 Bonnie Lewis: So I will only be finally cleansed in Purgatory?   01:23:49 Debra: In vino veritas   01:24:08 Anthony Rago: Greek Text of this chapter is here: https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BE/%CE%9B%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%99%CE%92 I can barely read Greek and can't now locate the word "torture."   01:25:16 Ambrose Little, OP: About being jovial, I have a fondness for this part of St. Thomas Aquinas’ prayer “for ordering a life wisely” (notably the last three lines):   O Lord my God, make me           submissive without protest,           poor without discouragement,           chaste without regret,           patient without complaint,           humble without posturing,           cheerful without frivolity,           mature without gloom,           and quick-witted without flippancy.   Being dour and scolding is not good, neither is flippancy and frivolity. Cheerfulness is a good thing within measure.   01:25:32 Anthony Rago: "agoneia"   01:25:49 Debra: Reacted to "About being jovial, ..." with ❤️   01:25:50 Daniel Allen: I think one thing I take from this is that I often don’t consider the significance of my own words, and that words have greater significance than generally thought   01:26:08 carol nypaver: Reacted to "About being jovial, ..." with ❤️   01:26:09 Ashley Kaschl: Reacted to "About being jovial, …" with 🔥   01:26:25 Cath Lamb: Reacted to "I think one thing I ..." with ❤️   01:27:19 Anthony Rago: Reacted to "About being jovial..." with ❤️   01:27:21 Cath Lamb: Thank you!   01:27:27 Cindy Moran: Excellent session...thank you Father   01:27:30 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂   01:27:42 Art: Thank you!   01:27:55 Jeff O.: Thank you! Good to be with you all.   01:27:59 Bonnie Lewis: Prayers of course!   01:29:15 Bonnie Lewis: that's right because I received an email.  

In these hypotheses, we have been reflecting upon the practice of asceticism, especially in light of the relationship between an Elder and his disciple; that is, in relationship to obedience. We are shown in these stories the ABC’s of the ascetic life and in particular that of the virtue of obedience.    What does it mean to let go of private judgment? What does it mean to set aside one’s will even in small things in our day-to-day life? How do we train the mind and the heart in this virtue; so that when we are asked to pick up our cross or when we are reduced to raw endurance and cannot see the road ahead of us, we are able to respond in love?  We are shown in the stories that one must begin small. It is in letting go of our sensitivities in the small things, and allowing love to trump everything that this virtue takes root. It means being more attentive to the “other”, to what is asked of us and what people need, than to holding on to what we want, or what seems right or convenient to us.    There is part of us that shrinks back in a spirit of objection to what is being taught here. It seems unnatural to us. But what is really being asked of us or rather where we are being led to embrace is the supernatural. What we are being guided to is the perfect love and self emptying obedience that we see in Christ. We should have a similar desire to have obedience to God’s will as our very food.  We must see it as something that sustains and nourishes us mystically.    Not fulfilling the will of God or choosing the path of sin should become something that is abhorrent to us. Such lessons can be learned only with humility. Beyond this, we are shown the incredible responsibility of those who are elders. Their actions, their requests and demands of their disciples must be rooted in the desire for their salvation, and for their good. They will be held accountable as shepherds. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:06:17 David Fraley: Hello Mrs Abernethy!   00:08:28 FrDavid Abernethy: page 305   00:08:28 David Fraley: Hi Fr David!   00:08:35 FrDavid Abernethy: Hi Dave!!   00:14:32 Debra: Step 11...on talkativeness....was really convicting   00:14:51 FrDavid Abernethy: yes it was!!   00:15:10 Debra: Ooops...wrong meeting LOL   00:25:19 Rachel: Maybe he wanted to see if his disciple was stuoid.   00:25:37 Rachel: stupid. Sorry. I should not joke.   00:28:57 iPhone: Reacted to "Maybe he wanted to s…" with ❤️   00:29:19 Rachel: Yes, I doubt he was stupid nor did the elder think that.   00:30:07 Rachel: I wonder though, what would be all of our reactions to this reality in our everyday lives?   00:52:38 Anthony Rago: This has got to be specific to novices.  Saints (Elizabeth of Hungary?) are praised for charity against the wishes of the head of household   00:55:36 Anthony Rago: But if these people can't use discretion, they also can fall into legalism - oops I don't have permission, I can't act on my own.   00:58:32 Anthony Rago: The religious life then is horribly dangerous.   01:01:01 Anthony Rago: That indicates then that people cannot abandon their discretion, they have to withhold some obedience, so they can  judge the situation, whether it is healthy or crazy - or just not for them.   01:05:15 Anthony Rago: Yes, I've seen situations both of people in religious life and married life that were just psychologically off.   01:05:25 Ambrose Little, OP: He also says submit to each other.   01:08:30 Debra: I always suggest Chrysogonus   01:09:09 Debra: for a baby's name He could just be called Chrys   01:18:36 Rachel: Thank you all, Thank you Father   01:19:08 Rachel: :) lol