For the Life of the World / Yale Center for Faith & Culture

“Art is a form of prayer … a way to enter into relationship.”Artist and theologian Bruce Herman reflects on the sacred vocation of making, resisting consumerism, and the divine invitation to become co-creators. From Mark Rothko to Rainer Maria Rilke, to Andres Serrano’s “Piss Christ” and T.S. Eliot’s Four Quartets, he comments on the holy risk of artmaking and the sacred fire of creative origination.Together with Evan Rosa, Bruce Herman explores the divine vocation of art making as resistance to consumer culture and passive living. In this deeply poetic and wide-ranging conversation—and drawing from his book *Makers by Nature—*he invites us into a vision of art not as individual genius or commodity, but as service, dialogue, and co-creation rooted in love, not fear. They touch on ancient questions of human identity and desire, the creative implications of being made in the image of God, Buber’s I and Thou, the scandal of the cross, Eliot’s divine fire, Rothko’s melancholy ecstasy, and how even making a loaf of bread can be a form of holy protest. A profound reflection on what it means to be human, and how we might change our lives—through beauty, vulnerability, and relational making.Episode Highlights“We are made by a Maker to be makers.”“ I think hope is being stolen from us Surreptitiously moment by moment hour by hour day by day.”“There is no them. There is only us.”“The work itself has a life of its own.”“Art that serves a community.”“You must change your life.” —Rilke, recited by Bruce Herman in reflection on the transformative power of art.“When we're not making something, we're not whole. We're not healthy.”“Making art is a form of prayer. It's a form of entering into relationship.”“Art is not for the artist—any more than it's for anyone else. The work stands apart. It has its own voice.”“We're not merely consumers—we're made by a Maker to be makers.”“The ultimate act of art is hospitality.”Topics and ThemesHuman beings are born to create and make meaningArt as theological dialogue and spiritual resistanceCreative practice as a form of love and worshipChristian art and culture in dialogue with contemporary issuesPassive consumption vs. active creationHow to engage with provocative art faithfullyThe role of beauty, mystery, and risk in the creative processArt that changes you spiritually, emotionally, and intellectuallyThe sacred vocation of the artist in a consumerist worldHow poetry and painting open up divine encounter, particularly in Rainer Maria Rilke’s “Archaic Torso of Apollo”Four Quartets and spiritual longing in modern poetryHospitality, submission, and service as aesthetic posturesModern culture's sickness and art as medicineEncountering the cross through contemporary artistic imagination“Archaic Torso of Apollo”Rainer Maria Rilke 1875 –1926We cannot know his legendary head with eyes like ripening fruit. And yet his torso is still suffused with brilliance from inside, like a lamp, in which his gaze, now turned to low, gleams in all its power. Otherwise the curved breast could not dazzle you so, nor could a smile run through the placid hips and thighs to that dark center where procreation flared. Otherwise this stone would seem defaced beneath the translucent cascade of the shoulders and would not glisten like a wild beast’s fur: would not, from all the borders of itself, burst like a star: for here there is no place that does not see you. You must change your life.About Bruce HermanBruce Herman is a painter, writer, educator, and speaker. His art has been shown in more than 150 exhibitions—nationally in many US cities, including New York, Boston, Washington, Chicago, Los Angeles, and Houston—and internationally in England, Japan, Hong Kong, Italy, Canada, and Israel. His artwork is featured in many public and private art collections including the Vatican Museum of Modern Religious Art in Rome; The Cincinnati Museum of Fine Arts print collection; The Grunewald Print Collection of the Hammer Museum, Los Angeles; DeCordova Museum in Boston; the Cape Ann Museum; and in many colleges and universities throughout the United States and Canada.Herman taught at Gordon College for nearly four decades, and is the founding chair of the Art Department there. He held the Lothlórien Distinguished Chair in Fine Arts for more than fifteen years, and continues to curate exhibitions and manage the College art collection there. Herman completed both BFA and MFA degrees at Boston University College of Fine Arts under American artists Philip Guston, James Weeks, David Aronson, Reed Kay, and Arthur Polonsky. He was named Boston University College of Fine Arts Distinguished Alumnus of the Year 2006.Herman’s art may be found in dozens of journals, popular magazines, newspapers, and online art features. He and co-author Walter Hansen wrote the book Through Your Eyes, 2013, Grand Rapids, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, a thirty-year retrospective of Herman’s art as seen through the eyes of his most dedicated collector.To learn more, explore A Video Portrait of the Artist and My Process – An Essay by Bruce Herman.Books by Bruce Herman*Makers by Nature: Letters from a Master Painter on Faith, Hope, and Art* (2025) *Ordinary Saints (*2018) *Through Your Eyes: The Art of Bruce Herman (2013) *QU4RTETS with Makoto Fujimura, Bruce Herman, Christopher Theofanidis, Jeremy Begbie (2012) A Broken Beauty (2006)Show NotesBruce Herman on Human Identity as MakersWe are created in the image of God—the ultimate “I Am”—and thus made to create.“We are made by a Maker to be makers.”To deny our creative impulse is to risk a deep form of spiritual unhealth.Making is not just for the “artist”—everyone is born with the capacity to make.Theological Themes and Philosophical FrameworksInfluences include Martin Buber’s “I and Thou,” René Girard’s scapegoating theory, and the image of God in Genesis.“We don't really exist for ourselves. We exist in the space between us.”The divine invitation is relational, not autonomous.Desire, imitation, and submission form the core of our relational anthropology.Art as Resistance to Consumerism“We begin to enter into illness when we become mere consumers.”Art Versus PropagandaCulture is sickened by passive consumption, entertainment addiction, and aesthetic commodification.Making a loaf of bread, carving wood, or crafting a cocktail are acts of cultural resistance.Desire“Anything is resistance… Anything is a protest against passive consumption.”Art as Dialogue and Submission“Making art is a form of prayer. It’s a form of entering into relationship.”Submission—though culturally maligned—is a necessary posture in love and art.Engaging with art requires openness to transformation.“If you want to really receive what a poem is communicating, you have to submit to it.”The Transformative Power of Encountering ArtQuoting Rilke’s Archaic Torso of Apollo: “You must change your life.”True art sees the viewer and invites them to become something more.Herman’s own transformative moment came unexpectedly in front of a Rothko painting.“The best part of my work is outside of my control.”Scandal, Offense, and the Cross in ArtAnalyzing Andres Serrano’s Piss Christ as a sincere meditation on the commercialization of the cross.“Does the crucifixion still carry sacred weight—or has it been reduced to jewelry?”Art should provoke—but out of love, not self-aggrandizement or malice.“The cross is an offense. Paul says so. But it’s the power of God for those being saved.”Beauty, Suffering, and Holy RiskEncounter with art can arise from personal or collective suffering.Bruce references Christian Wiman and Walker Percy as artists opened by pain.“Sometimes it takes catastrophe to open us up again.”Great art offers not escape, but transformation through vulnerability.The Fire and the Rose: T. S. Eliot’s InfluenceFour Quartets shaped Herman’s artistic and theological imagination.Eliot’s poetry is contemplative, musical, liturgical, and steeped in paradox.“To be redeemed from fire by fire… when the fire and the rose are one.”The collaborative Quartets project with Makoto Fujimura and Chris Theofanidis honors Eliot’s poetic vision.Living and Creating from Love, Not Fear“Make from love, not fear.”Fear-driven art (or politics) leads to manipulation and despair.Acts of love include cooking, serving, sharing, and creating for others.“The ultimate act of art is hospitality.”Media & Intellectual ReferencesMakers by Nature by Bruce HermanFour Quartets by T. S. EliotThe Archaic Torso of Apollo by Rainer Maria RilkeWassily Kandinsky, “On the Spiritual in Art”Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil PostmanThings Hidden Since the Foundation of the World by René GirardThe Art of the Commonplace by Wendell BerryAndres Serrano’s Piss ChristMakoto Fujimura’s Art and Collaboration

Fyodor Raychynets, a theologian and pastor from Kyiv, shares insights on living with courage amid the turmoil of war in Ukraine. He emphasizes the importance of confronting fear instead of avoiding it, arguing that embracing our fears leads to a more abundant life. Reflecting on hope and despair in conflict, he discusses personal grief, the emotional landscape of leadership, and the need for emotional expression in times of crisis. Fyodor encourages living in the moment and cultivating gratitude, reminding us that tomorrow is never guaranteed.

Mystics and prophets have reported receiving visions from the Divine for centuries—”Thus saith the Lord…”—Hildegard of Bingen, Teresa of Avila, Ignatius of Loyola, Catherine of Siena, or Julian of Norwich. The list goes on.But what would you think if you met a seer of visions in the present day? Maybe you have.What about a prophet whose visions came like a movie screen unfurled before him, the images grotesque and vivid, all in the unsuspecting backwoods setting of Lookout Mountain, deep in the south of Tennessee.Would you believe it? Would you believe him? The beauty of fiction allows the reader to join the author in asking: What if?That’s exactly what Jamie Quatro has allowed us to do in her newest work of literary fiction, Two-Step Devil.What if an earnest and wildly misunderstood Christian is left alone on Lookout Mountain? What if the receiver of visions makes art that reaches a girl who’s stuck in the darkest grip of a fraught world? What if the Devil really did sit in the corner of the kitchen, wearing a cowboy hat, and what if he got to tell his own side of the Biblical story?On today’s episode novelist Jamie Quatro joins Macie Bridge to share about her relationship to the theological exploration within her latest novel, Two-Step Devil; her experience of being a Christian and a writer, but not a “Christian Writer”; and how the trinity of main characters in the novel speak to and open up her own deepest concerns about the state of our country and the world we inhabit.Jamie Quatro is the New York Times Notable author of I Want to Show You More, and Fire Sermon. *Two-Step Devil* is her latest work and is the winner of the 2024 Willie Morris Award for Southern Writing, and it’s also been named a New York Times Editor's Choice, among other accolades. Jamie teaches in the Sewanee School of Letters MFA program.SPOILER ALERT! This episode contains substantial spoilers to the novel’s plot, so if you’d like to read it for yourself, first grab a copy from your local bookstore, then two-step on back over here to listen to this conversation!About Jamie QuatroJamie Quatro is the New York Times Notable author of I Want to Show You More, a finalist for the Los Angeles Times Art Seidenbaum Award and the National Book Critics Circle’s John Leonard Prize, and Fire Sermon, a Book of the Year for the Economist, San Francisco Chronicle, LitHub, Bloomberg, and the Times Literary Supplement. Her most recent novel, Two-Step Devil, is the winner of the 2024 Willie Morris Award for Southern Writing. It has also been named a New York Times Editor's Choice, a 2025 ALA Notable Book, and a Best Book of 2024 by the Paris Review and the Atlanta Journal Constitution. A new story collection is forthcoming from Grove Press.Quatro’s fiction has appeared or is forthcoming in The New Yorker, The Paris Review, Harper’s, the New York Review of Books, Ploughshares, and elsewhere. She is the recipient of fellowships from MacDowell, Yaddo, Bread Loaf, and La Maison Dora Maar in Ménerbes, France, where she will be in residence in 2025. Quatro holds an MA in English from the College of William and Mary and an MFA in fiction from the Bennington College Writing Seminars. She teaches in the Sewanee School of Letters MFA program, and lives with her family in Chattanooga, Tennessee.Show NotesGet your copy of Two-Step Devil by Jamie QuatroClick here to view the art that inspired Jamie Quatro’s Two-Step DevilProduction NotesThis podcast featured Jamie Quatro with Macie BridgeEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Macie Bridge, Alexa Rollow, Zoë Halaban, Kacie Barrett & Emily BrookfieldA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

It’s easy to forget how utterly scandalous the concepts of grace and forgiveness are. Grace is an absolutely unmerited, undeserved benevolence. Forgiveness is an intentional miscarriage of retributive justice, ignoring of the wrong by a wrongdoer.In Miroslav Volf’s understanding, forgiveness “decouples the deed from the doer.”Today’s episode features some highlights from Miroslav’s personal reflections about each chapter of his book Free of Charge: Giving and Forgiving in a Culture Stripped of Grace, including his thoughts about one of the most painful moments in his family’s history, the death of his 5-year-old brother Daniel when Miroslav was just a small boy.Free of Charge was published in 2006, and we just released a 10-video curriculum series through faith.yale.edu/free-of-charge. It also includes a 48-page discussion guide with new material to help facilitate not just deeper reflection about giving and forgiving, but a viable, livable path toward these core Christian practices.This series is free for Yale Center for Faith & Culture email subscribers. So head over to faith.yale.edu/free-of-charge to sign up today.Production NotesThis podcast featured Miroslav VolfEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Macie Bridge, Alexa Rollow, Zoë Halaban, Kacie Barrett, and Emily BrookfieldA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

Femi Olutade, lead writer for Season 5 of Dissect, dives deep into Kendrick Lamar's political theology. He highlights Kendrick's Super Bowl halftime show as a striking commentary on race and injustice, suggesting it's more than just entertainment. Femi explores themes of pride, humility, and the historical weight of '40 acres and a mule' in Lamar's work. The conversation contrasts Kendrick’s moral depth with other artists, revealing how hip hop reflects broader societal challenges and the intricate dance of competition amidst cultural commentary.

Disaster preparedness is sort of an oxymoron. Disaster is the kind of indiscriminate calamity that only ever finds us ill-equipped to manage. And if you are truly prepared, you’ve probably averted disaster.There’s a big difference between the impact of disaster on physical, material life—and its outsized impact on mental, emotional, and spiritual life.Personal disasters like a terminal illness, natural disasters like the recent fires that razed southern Californian communities, the impact of endless, senseless wars … these all cause a pain and physical damage that can be mitigated or rebuilt. But the worst of these cases threaten to destroy the very meaning of our lives.No wonder disaster takes such a psychological and spiritual toll. There’s an urgent need to find or even make meaning from it. To somehow explain it, justify why God would allow it, and tell a grand story that makes sense from the senseless.These are difficult questions, and my guests today both have personal experience with disaster. Dr. Pam King is the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology, and the Executive Director the Thrive Center. She’s an ordained Presbyterian minister, and she hosts a podcast on psychology and spirituality called With & For. Dr. Jamie Aten is a disaster psychologist and disaster ministry expert, helping others navigate mass, humanitarian, and personal disasters with scientific and spiritual insights. He is the Founder and Executive Director of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute Wheaton College, where he holds the Blanchard Chair of Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership. He is author of *A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and Resilience.*In this conversation, Pam King and Jamie Aten join Evan Rosa to discuss:Each of their personal encounters with disasters—both fire and cancerThe psychological study of disasterThe personal impact of disaster on mental, emotional, and spiritual healthThe difference between resilience and fortitudeAnd the theological and practical considerations for how to live through disastrous events.About Pam KingPam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. She hosts the With & For podcast, and you can follow her @drpamking.About Jamie AtenJamie D. Aten is a disaster psychologist and disaster ministry expert. He helps others navigate mass, humanitarian, and personal disasters with scientific and spiritual insights. He is the Founder and Executive Director of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute and Disaster Ministry Conference and holds the Blanchard Chair of Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership at Wheaton College. And he’s the author of *A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and Resilience.*Show NotesHumanitarian Disaster InstituteSpiritual First AidJamie Aten’s A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and ResilienceThe Thrive Center at Fuller SeminaryPam King’s personal experience fighting fires in the Eaton Fire in January 20255,000 homes destroyed55 schools and houses of worship are gone“Neighborhoods are annihilated …”Jamie Aten offers an overview of the impact of disasters on humanity, and the human response1985: 400% increase in natural disasters globallyJapan 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunamiHaiti 2010 earthquakePhysical, emotional, spiritualInfrastructural impacts that set up disastersUSAID supportJamie Aten’s experience during Hurricane KatrinaPersonal disastersJamie Aten’s experience with colon cancer“Evacuation Impossible”Impact of disaster on personal sense of thrivingThriving vs survivingUnderstanding traumaCollective traumatic eventsThe historically Black multigenerational community in AltadenaWhat constitutes thriving?Thriving as adaptive growth: with and for othersSelf-care is not just me-care, but we-care.Trauma brain and the cognitive impacts of disasterThe psychological study of disaster: grapefruit vs beachballHumanitarian Disaster InstituteSpiritual First AidA rupture of meaning makingPlace and spirituality and the impact of disaster on sense of placeBethlehem pastor Munther Isaac’s “Christ in the Rubble”Finding meaning in both the restructuring or rebuilding, but also in the rubble itselfHope embodied in serviceEverything is a cognitive loadMiroslav Volf and Ryan McAnnally-Linz’s The Home of God: A Brief Story of EverythingPsychological and trauma-informed care”One of the things that we found was that when people received positive spiritual support, that they reported lower levels of trauma, lower levels of depression and lower levels of anxiety.”Bless CPRBLESS: Biological, Livelihood, Emotional, Social, Spiritual“What’s the most pressing need?”Spiritual healthSpirituality and our ultimate sources of meaningTranscendenceLament as a practice for dealing with disasterPrayer or sacred readingsMeaning making and suffering:  Elizabeth Hall (Biola University) and Crystal Park (University of Connecticut)Baton Rouge Flood 2016Navigating sufferingReligion in disaster mental healthFaith as a predictor for resilienceMeaning making outside of religionMr. Rogers: “Look for the helpers”Best disaster preparedness: “Get to know your neighbor.”“Proximity alone is not what it takes to become a neighbor.”Neighbors helping neighborsManaging burnout in helpers“Spiritual self-aid” instead of “self-care”Self-care is like surfing“God holding the fragmented pieces of me”“God’s love is with me.”Spiritual fortitude in personal and natural disastersProduction NotesThis podcast featured Jamie Aten and Pam KingEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Macie Bridge, Alexa Rollow, Zoë Halaban, Kacie Barrett & Emily BrookfieldA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

How should we treat our one and only home, Earth? What obligations do we have to other living or non-living things? How should we think about climate change and its denial? How does biodiversity and species extinction impact human beings? And how should we think about environmental justice, the rights of animals, and the ways we consume the natural world?In this episode, Ryan McAnnally-Linz welcomes Ryan Darr (Assistant Professor, Yale Divinity School) to reflect on some of the most pressing issues in environmental ethics and consider them through philosophical, ecological, and theological frameworks.Together they discuss:What and who matters in environmental ethics: Only humans? Only sentient animals? Every life form? The inorganic natural world?The significance and difference between global and individual scale of climate issuesThe ethics of climate change denialEnvironmental justice and moral obligations to the environment—the question of what we owe to animals and the rest of the natural worldThe importance of biodiversity and the impact of species loss and extinctionThe ethics of eating animalsThe problems with human consumption of the natural worldAnd the impact of cultivating a wider moral imagination of our ecological futureAbout Ryan DarrRyan Darr Ryan Darr is Assistant Professor of Religion, Ethics, and Environment at Yale Divinity School. His research interests include environmental ethics, multispecies justice, structural injustice, ethical theory, and the history of religious and philosophical ethics. He is currently writing a book that defends an account of environmental and multispecies justice as a framework for thinking ethically about the crisis of biodiversity loss and mass extinction. He is also developing an ongoing research project exploring the relationship between individual agency and responsibility and structural justice and injustice with a particular focus on environmental and climate issues.His first book, The Best Effect: Theology and the Origins of Consequentialism, was published by the University of Chicago Press in 2023. The book offers a new, robustly theological story of the origin of consequentialism, one of the most influential views in modern moral theory. It uses the new historical account to intervene in contemporary ethical debates about consequentialism and about how ethicists conceive of goods, ends, agency, and causality.Prior to joining the YDS faculty, Ryan held postdoctoral fellowships at the Princeton University Center for Human Values (2019-22) and the Yale Institute of Sacred Music (2022-24).Show NotesGet your copy of Ryan Darr’s The Best Effect: Theology and the Origins of ConsequentialismComplex ethical questions about climate changeEnmeshed in environmental systemsA crash course in environmental ethicsWhich entities should we be thinking about ethically?Are human beings the most important morally and ethically speaking?What about animals, plants, or other kinds of life?What about other species of animalsAnthropocentrism: Only humans matter.Sentientism: Only sentient animals matterBiocentrism: Every life form mattersCan we apply justice and rights to animals?The polar bear on melting ice was the poster child for climate change; but this was a mistake because the effects on human beings is massive.“All of us are affected.”“We’re all vulnerable to climate change. …. kidding themselves and need to think more about this.”Global southClimate negotiations: Who needs to lower emissions and how? And how do we adapt?Massive overwhelm at the scope of environmental problems: “Only massive changes can make a difference.” But “I have to change my life.”How should we navigate the scale issue?Don’t let large scale or small scale issues or changes eclipse the other.Political action is crucial“We need people willing to respond in the ways they can, where they are.”Climate change denial“There’s a lot of money flowing here.” Fossil fuel interests and others muddy the waters and create conflicts“If it’s the case that millions of lives are at stake … I don’t see how some doubtReasons why people might deny climate change“It’d be nice if climate change wasn’t real, but …”Environmental justice and injusticeToxicities released into the natural environmentConservation and biodiversity lossApproximately 8 million species on earthIt’s standard to lose a handful per million per yearGenerally, you’re supposed to get more species on earth, short of a mass extinction eventBut extinction rate is something like 100x to 1000x fasterDefaunation—reduction of fauna on earthMeasuring the biomass of various species (Humans make up 30% of the world’s biomass.)Changes linked to colonialism and global capitalismWhy would God have created such a diverse speciesThomas Aquinas on why God created a world full of biodiversity: to reflect God’s extensive perfection“On this view, the world is show lessWhat are the ethics ofExample: Wolves were intentionally eradicated in America, because “who wants a wolf in their neighborhood.”Justice-oriented “Rights” and what we owe to each other, versus non-justiceDo we have obligations to animals?Example: Kicking a Cat“The Incredulous Stare”Jainism and “ahiṃsā” (non-injury, no-harm, or non-violence toward all life forms, down to microbes)“I’m inclined to think that I have obligations to almost all animals.”At least “animals who are sentient”—desires, frustration of desires, pain, etc.Is it permissible to eat meat?Factory-farmed meat (effectively tormented)Animal life has become commodity—valuable solely because of its use and with no regard for their well-being.Consumers, Producers, and Wendell Berry: How should social roles relate to each other?“Any question about justice have to begin from concrete social positions.”Maintaining action and creativityPractical recommendation for action to align our lives with our values“I read fiction and short stories that tell stories of human beings in futures drastically affected by climate change as a way to open up my imagination to what’s possible.”Dystopian narratives: leading to a sense of futility and hopelessness.“I don’t think we know where anything is headed.”“Humans have lived through upheaval so many times, and have found ways. … ‘People kept on baking bread as the Roman Empire fell.’”Yale Divinity School class: “Eco-Futures”—imagining lives lived well in painful situationsIf not hope, a sense of determination to do what can be done with the time that we have.Kim Stanley Robinson's The Ministry for the Future: a technocratic novel about politics and policy solutionsShort fiction on Grist—Imagine 2200: Write the FutureMargaret Atwood, Everything ChangeProduction NotesThis podcast featured Ryan Darr and Ryan McAnnally-LinzEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Macie Bridge, Alexa Rollow, Zoë Halaban, Kacie Barrett, and Emily BrookfieldA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

Deborah Casewell, an Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of Chester, dives deep into the intriguing topic of divine hiddenness. She discusses the tension between God's apparent absence and human faith, reflecting on personal experiences akin to Mother Teresa's. The conversation touches on Simone Weil's insights, Martin Luther's theology of the cross, and the existential implications of feeling abandoned. Ultimately, it emphasizes the brave pursuit of meaning amidst unanswered questions and the complexity of faith, hope, and love.

Is America a nation Chosen by God? A New Jerusalem and Shining City on a Hill? What is the shape of Christian Nationalism today?Now 4 years past Jan 6, 2021 and anticipating the next term of presidential office, Yale professors Eliyahu Stern and Philip Gorski join Evan Rosa for a conversation about religion, politics, and the shape of Christian nationalism now.Together they discuss what religion really means in sociological and historical terms; the difference between religions of power and religions of law or morality; the American syncretism of pagan Christianity (perhaps captured in the Qnon Shaman with the horns and facepaint); the connection between nationalism and the desire to be a Chosen People; the supersessionism at the root of seeing the Christian conquest of America as a New Jerusalem; and how ordinary citizens come to adopt the tenets of Christian Nationalism.Eliyahu Stern is Professor of Modern Jewish Intellectual and Cultural History in the Departments of Religious Studies and History and his current project is entitled No Where Left to Go: Jews and the Global Right from 1977 to October 7.Philip Gorski is Frederick and Laura Goff Professor of Sociology at Yale University and is author of The Flag and the Cross: White Christian Nationalism and the Threat to American Democracy (with Samuel Perry) as well as American Covenant: A History of Civil Religion from the Puritans to the Present.Special thanks to our production assistant Zoë Halaban for pitching this conversation.About Eliyahu SternEliyahu Stern is Professor of Modern Jewish Intellectual and Cultural History in the Departments of Religious Studies and History. Previously, he was Junior William Golding Fellow in the Humanities at Brasenose College and the Oriental Institute, University of Oxford. He is the author of the award-winning, The Genius: Elijah of Vilna and the Making of Modern Judaism (Yale University Press in 2012). His second monograph Jewish Materialism: The Intellectual Revolution of the 1870s (Yale University Press, 2018) details the ideological background to Jews’ involvement in Zionism, Capitalism, and Communism. His courses include The Global Right: From the French Revolution to the American Insurrection, Secularism: From the Enlightenment to the Present, Modern Jewish Intellectual History, The Holocaust in Culture and Politics. He has served as a term member on the Council on Foreign Relations and a consultant to the Museum of the History of Polish Jews in Warsaw, Poland. Currently, he is a member of the Academic Advisory Board of the Center of Jewish History.His latest project is entitled No Where Left to Go: Jews and the Global Right from 1977 to October 7.About Philip GorskiPhilip S. Gorski is a comparative-historical sociologist with strong interests in theory and methods and in modern and early modern Europe. He is Frederick and Laura Goff Professor of Sociology at Yale University. His empirical work focuses on topics such as state-formation, nationalism, revolution, economic development and secularization with particular attention to the interaction of religion and politics. Other current interests include the philosophy and methodology of the social sciences and the nature and role of rationality in social life. He’s author with Samuel L. Perry of The Flag and the Cross: White Christian Nationalism and the Threat to American Democracy, as well as American Covenant: A History of Civil Religion from the Puritans to the Present.Show NotesTrump: “I’m a nationalist.”Increased ownership and proud identification as Christian NationalismEliyahu Stern, No Where Left to Go: Jews and the Global Right from 1977 to October 7The human practice of religion“ The way one person will invoke Christianity will be something very different than say the way a church or the way another person or another religious figure is going to invoke that term.”Humility and a leap“ The History of the Sacred from Babylon to Beyoncé”Religion vs “The Sacred””Western nationalism itself is, the offspring of a Christian supersessionist appropriation of Judaism.”“A new chosen people”The Deep Story Philip Gorski tells in The Flag and the CrossPagan understandings of nationalism“The Deep Story runs something like this. America was founded as a Christian nation. The founders were Orthodox Christians. The founding documents were based on quote, biblical principles or perhaps even divinely inspired. The United States has a special role to play. In history as an exceptional or chosen nation in order to carry out that mission, it's been blessed with unique power and prosperity. But the project, the mission, and also the prosperity and the power are all increasingly endangered by the presence of non-whites, non-native born people, non-Christians on American soil.”Covenantal logicThe tendency to see oneself as “Chosen”England, Netherlands claiming the mantle of Chosenness for political purposes“Jews are sitting around the world and they're trying to figure out how to unchosen themselves.”Supersessionism and the interpretation of the Old TestamentThe Promised Land Story: American ConquestThe Exemplary Story: A Shining City on a HillHow do we gather and absorb political narratives like Christian Nationalism?How is Christian Nationalism passed on?Larger network of international Christian NationalismsThe Arms Race or Game of Thrones that Nationalisms assumeRussian Christian Nationalism and recovering a “Christian Civilization”Christian Nationalism is a political strategy“ I don't think anybody … believes for a second that Donald Trump, or Vladimir Putin, or for that matter, Viktor Orban are serious Christians by any reasonable definition of that term.”“White-supremicism in more acceptable garb.”Losers of free market economicsFree Market Capitalism and erosion of social bonds and relationshipsStrong borders, blood and soilFear of immigrantsTrustWhat is the deeply felt need of someone who comes to identify as a Christian Nationalist?Human needs threatened by social instability and inequalityLip service for the sake of powerWhat “Christian” does next to “Nationalism”Trump embraces Nationalism for himselfGlobalism vs NationalismSecond Iraq War as a mistake“Proponents are not religious in the conventional sense”“ When we're talking about Christian nationalism, we have to first and foremost recognize that we're talking about a different understanding of Christianity than what Americans are accustomed to seeing as the dominant understanding of what that term signifies.”The crucial distinction between Religions of Power and Religions of MoralityPowerful protector“Modern-day Cyrus”—The comparison between Trump and the biblical figure of CyrusWhat is religion? What kind of religion is operative in Christian Nationalism?”It is not just centered in evangelicalism anymore.”First Things and Catholic IntegralismNew Apostolic ReformationDominion Theology“This is about occupying institutions, seizing power, and using the state to impose a particular vision and a particular hierarchy.”Jan 6, 2021Rising paganism in America“How could Christians embrace Trump?”Merging of Shamanism and Christianity on Jan 6Trancendental versus immanent versions of ChristianityNeo-paganism and magical understandings of the worldConcerns and hope as Trump takes office in January 2025Further toward the politics of grievance and victimization“Trump as a backstop”Israel’s relianceCan Trump negotiate international peace?“The cynical side of me says  my greatest hope lies in Trump's failures.”Hope for more careful, nuanced conversations about Christian NationalismProduction NotesThis podcast featured Eliyahu Stern and Philip GorskiEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Zoë Halaban, Macie Bridge, Alexa Rollow, and Emily BrookfieldA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

“All the natural movements of the soul are controlled by laws analogous to those of physical gravity. Grace is the only exception.” … “It is necessary to uproot oneself. To cut down the tree and make of it a cross, and then to carry it every day.” … “I have to imitate God who infinitely loves finite things in that they are finite things.” … “To know that what is most precious is not rooted in existence—that is beautiful. Why? It projects the soul beyond time.”(Simone Weil, Gravity & Grace)“That's how the figure of Christ comes into this idea of the madness of love. It's that kind of mad, self emptying act completely. And it's the  one thing, she says, it's the only thing that means that you  are able to love properly. Because to love properly, and therefore to be just properly, you have to love like Christ does. Which is love to the extent that you, that you empty yourself and, you know, die on a cross.” (Deborah Casewell, from this episode)This is the third installment of a short series on How to Read Simone Weil—as the Mystic, the Activist, and the Existentialist.This week, Evan Rosa invites Deborah Casewell, Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of Chester, author of Monotheism & Existentialism, and Co-Director of the Simone Weil Research Network in the U.K.—to explore how to read Simone Weil the Existentialist.Together they discuss how her life of extreme self-sacrifice importantly comes before her philosophy; how to understand her central, but often confusing concept of decreation; her approach to beauty as the essential human response for finding meaning in a world of force and necessity; the madness of Jesus Christ as the only way to engage in struggle for justice and how she connects that to the Greek tragedy of Antigone, which is the continuation of the Oedipus story; and, the connection between love, justice, and living a life of madness.About Simone WeilSimone Weil (1909–1943) was a French philosopher, mystic, and political activist. She’s the author of Gravity and Grace, The Need for Roots, and Waiting for God—among many other essays, letters, and notes.About Deborah CasewellDeborah Casewell is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of Chester, author of Monotheism & Existentialism, and is Co-Director of the Simone Weil Research Network in the U.K.Show NotesSimone Weil’s Gravity & Grace (1947) (Available Online)Deborah Casewell’s Monotheism & ExistentialismSimone de Beauvoir’s anecdote in Memories of a Beautiful Daughter: “Shouldn’t we also get people’s minds, not just their bodies? Weil: “You’ve never been hungry have you?”Leon Trotsky yells violently at WeilThe odd idolizing of Weil without paying attention to her writing”You get a kind of, as you say, a kind of odd idolization of her, or a sense in which  you can't then interact so critically   or systematically with her philosophy, because her figure stands in the way so much, and the kind of the respect that people have.”Anti-Semitism despite JewishnessSimone Weil’s relationship to food: an unhealthy role model“She’d reject anything that wasn’t perfect.”Extreme germophobeExpression of solidarity with the unfortunateHer life comes before her philosophy. Being, you might say, comes before thinking.Weil’s life of extreme self-sacrifice as “mad”—alienating, insane, strange to the outside world.“ I think an essential part of, to an essential part of understanding her is to understand that   world is kind of structured and  set up in such a way that it runs without God, without the supernatural, God's kind of abdicated through the act of creation. And as a result, the universe operates through necessity and through force. So left to its own devices, the universe, I think, tends towards crushing people.”Abandonment vs abdicationPeople possess power and ability and action—a tension between activity and passivityWeil’s Marxism and theory of labor and workActivity becomes sustained passivityConsent, power, and the social dynamics of force and necessityI think she sees the best human existence is to be in a state of obedience instead. And so what you have to do is relinquish power over people.The complexity of human relationships“She was a very individual person … a singular, individual life.”The Need for Roots“And this is what I do like about Simone Weil—is that she's always happy to let contradictions exist. And so when she describes human nature and the needs of the soul, they're contradictory. They all contradict each other. It's freedom and obedience.”Creating dualismsShe is a dualistSimone Weil on Beauty and Decreation”Decreation is essentially your way to exist in the world ruled by force and necessity without succumbing  to force and necessity, because in a way there's less  of you to succumb to force and necessity.”Platonic idea of MetaxuWeil on the human experience of beauty—” people need beautiful things and they need experiences of beauty in order to exist in the world, fundamentally… if this world is ruled by force and necessity.”The unity of the transcendentals of beauty and truth and goodness—anchored in GodWeil’s PlatonismWeil as religious existentialist, as opposed to French atheistic existentialist“ For her, God is the ultimate reality, but also God is love. And so the goal of human existence, I think, is to return to God and consent to God. That's the goal of human life.”“What are you paying attention to?”The madness of ChristThe struggle for justice“Only a few people have this desire for justice, this madness to love.”Existentialism and Humanism: “Sartre says that  man is nothing but what he makes of himself.”Making oneself an example“The real supernatural law, which is mad and unreasonable, and it doesn't try to make accommodations and get on with the world and deal with tricky situations. It's just mad.”Simone Weil on Antigone and the continuation of the Oedipus storySummary of the Greek tragedy, Antigone“And so Antigone says, the justice that I owe is not to the city. It's not so that the city can, you know, continue its life and move on. The justice that I owe is to the supernatural law, to these more important primordial laws that actually govern the  life and death situations and the situation of your soul as well. And that's why she does what she does. She's obedient to the unwritten law rather than the written law.”“The love of God and the justice of God is always going to be mad in the eyes of the world.””The spirit of justice is nothing other than the supreme and perfect flower of the madness of love.”The mad, self-emptying love of Christ“That's how the figure of Christ comes into this idea of the madness of love. It's that kind of mad, self emptying act completely. And it's the  one thing, she says, it's the only thing that means that you  are able to love properly. Because to love properly, and therefore to be just properly, you have to love like Christ does. Which is love to the extent that you, that you empty yourself and, you know, die on a cross.”Does Weil suggest an unhealthy desire to suffer?“ It hurls one into risks one cannot run. If one has given one's heart to anything at all that belongs to this world. Um, and the outcome to which the madness of love led Christ is, after all, no recommendation for it.”“But if the order of the universe is a wise order, there must sometimes be moments when, from the point of view of earthly reason, only the madness of love is reasonable. Such moments can only be those when, as today, mankind has become mad from want of love. Is it certain today that the madness of love may not be capable of providing the unhappy masses, hungry in body and soul, with a food far easier for them to digest than our inspirations to a less lofty source? So then, being what we are, is it certain that we are at our post in the camp of justice?”“ From a loftier view, only the madness of love is reasonable.”“Only the madness of love can be the kind of love that actually helps people in the world. Fundamentally, that people, even though they know it's mad, and they find it mad, and they would sometimes rather not see it, they need that kind of love, and they need people who love in that kind of way. Even if it's not the majority, people still  need that. And so in some way, the way in which  she is, and the way in which she sees Christ being, is indispensable. Even though the path that you have to go down has nothing to recommend, as she says, in the eyes of the reasonable world, nothing to recommend it. It's the only just thing to do. It's the only just and loving thing to do in the end.”Production NotesThis podcast featured Deborah CasewellEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Macie Bridge, Alexa Rollow, Emily Brookfield, and Zoë HalabanA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give