Pro Politics with Zac McCrary

Send us a textThose in the political world know Jason Stanford as the founder of the opposition research firm Stanford Campaigns - which is still going strong after 20+ years. He's also a prolific writer, with a new book out. Forget the Alamo chronicles the history of the Alamo, starting before the first shot was fired to the present day as the Alamo continues to roil Texas politics. In this discussion, Jason talks about his early days in Moscow as an aspiring spy, cutting his teeth working for Ann Richards in Texas, starting his opposition research firm, and touches on a few of the fascinating stories from his new book.Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics Podcast(Please consider leaving a rating and review in your podcast app)IN THIS EPISODEJason is an eyewitness to Boris Yeltsin rolling in the tanks…How a West Coast kid like Jason winds up working in Texas politics…Jason works for and learns from Ann Richards in the ’94 campaign…Jason dusts off some of the ’94 talking points against George W Bush…How Jason started his opposition research firm in the mid-90s that is still going strong today…Jason talks a couple of times his research changed the course of a campaign…The origin story of Jason’s new book Forget the Alamo…Jason explains the connection between the Alamo and Walt Disney, John Wayne, and Phil Collins (yes, that Phil Collins)…How the Alamo played an important role in JFK’s 1960 campaign…The Alamo causes political waves for George P. Bush and Julian & Joaquin Castro…Jason provides an itinerary for your next visit to Austin…AND…Barton Springs, a black Volkswagen without A/C, Jim Bowie, Bryan Burrough, James Carville, Rosie Castro, Ben Chandler, the Continental Club, Davy Crockett, Lincoln Davis, Johnny Depp, gas station tacos, ghostwriters at the Alamo, internet porn, Bruce Lunsford, the mayor of Jerusalem, Dan Morales, Ken Paxton, Mike Plant, Ton Ryan, Santa Ana, Mark Strama, the Texas Rangers, Chris Tomlinson, William Travis, Donald Trump, the World Bank, Boris Yeltsin…and more!Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics Podcast(Please consider leaving a rating and review in your podcast app)

Send us a textJames Aldrete comes out of a family political tradition with one foot in the world of radical Tejano politics of the 50s and 60s - and one foot in the  Democratic establishment. As a political professional, he's merged those strands to start his own firm (MAP) based in Austin, TX and become a leading voice within the Democratic party on communications and messaging, with a focus on Hispanic engagement and media. In this conversation, James talks cutting his teeth in Texas politics for Governors Mark White and Ann Richards, building his own media firm over the past 20+ years, working in multiple presidential campaigns, and his thoughts on the changing way to communicate with a diversifying coalition of voters.Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics PodcastIN THIS EPISODEJames grows up with one foot in Texas and one foot in DC…James’ family roots in both radical politics and establishment politics…James remembers leading lights of the Hispanic community coming through for dinners at his house…James’ interns at the Lloyd Bentsen-era DSCC…The 1986 Mark White Governor’s campaign gives James his first political network…James' memories working for Ann Richards’ 1990 campaign…How James grows his business after hanging up his own shingle in the mid 90s…James experience working for Obama 2008 media team…James best practices of communicating with Hispanic voters…James talks Trump’s 2020 performance with Hispanic voters…The Santa Fe Mayoral Race that meant a lot to James…AND Kirk Adams, Sharron Angle, David Axelrod, Lloyd Bentsen, Fabian Chavez, Matthew Dowd, Kida de la Garza, Harris Diamond, the GI Forum, Dave Gold, Javier Gonzales, Charlie Gonzalez, Henry Gonzalez, Larry Grisolano, Luis Guiterrez, Jane Hedgepeth, Dwayne Holman, Ruben Hinojosa, Hubert Humphrey, Kathleen Hall Jamieson, Felix Longoria, Jim Margolis, Mark McKinnon, Ruben Montoya, Dick Morris, George Rakis, Harry Reid, Ann Richards, Cecile Richards, Eliot Richardson, Ciro Rodgriguez, George Sanchez, John Sayles, Bob Squier, Raymond Strother, Russ Tidwell, Mark White, Isabel Wilkerson, Ralph Yarborough….and more!Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics Podcast

Send us a textEnjoy a short bonus episode with the iconic (and iconoclastic) Kinky Friedman...country music legend, best-selling novelist, and sometimes political candidate. Kinky talks through some of his political heroes, his favorite political stories, his time in the Peace Corps, his friendship with both Bill Clinton and George W Bush.,.& and closes the episode with one of his songs - that was a favorite of Nelson Mandela.IN THIS EPISODE...Kinky talks about the politician that spoke to him most as a kid....Kinky tells the story of Texas political legend Barbara Jordan's famous speech at the 1976 Democratic Convention...Kinky's time in the Peace Corps in Borneo...Kinky tells the story of a lunch involving Bob Dylan and his father...The story of one of Kinky's songs being played regularly by Nelson Mandela in his prison cell...Kinky writes the "first pro-choice" country song...Kinky talks through his early days as a musician in Nashville...Kinky's time around Bill Clinton and George W. Bush (both big fans of his novels)Kinky visits the White House...Kinky's current passion project of the Echo Hill Ranch, providing a summer camp experience for kids of Gold Star families...AND...Barrabas, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Marcie Friedman, Professor Tom Friedman, John Glenn, Hill Country Motors, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, JFK, Moses, Dolly Parton, Rick Perry, Ann Richards, Rolling Thunder Revue, Mark Twain, Tokyo Sexwale, Shel Silverstein, Adlai Stevenson, Robert Strauss, Helen Suzman, Billy Swann, the White Horse Saloon, Hank Williams, Warren Zevon, and MORE!

Send us a textBecki Donatelli is a legendary GOP strategist and a trailblazing digital consultant. She got her start as a Goldwater Girl, worked for Reagan in '76, knew Jim Baker and Ronald Reagan, and worked with John McCain in 2000 & 2008. As a digital pioneer, Beck was part of the first operation to raise political money on the internet. And her firm, Campaign Solutions, has been leading in the digital space for 20+ years in presidential races and hundreds of statewide and congressional campaigns. This is a great conversation following Becki's one-of-a-kind career and a front-row seat to the advent and evolution of the digital politics we know today.Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics PodcastIN THIS EPISODEBecki talks about growing up in “idyllic” Orange County, CA in the 1960s…Becki’s first political experience volunteering for a CA Assembly race…Becki’s love-at-first-sight experience with DC…Becki works for the insurgent ’76 Reagan campaign…Becki’s involvement in Jim Baker’s one race for office in Texas…The story behind the first online political donation…and the surprising recipient…Becki’s friendship with Roger Stone…Becki’s passion for political fundraising and the difference between Doers and Donors…Becki talks about her time around Ronald Reagan…Beck starts a new firm…and connects with John McCain…How Becki’s firm played a key role in the insurgent McCain 2000 campaign…The early “wars” between online giving vs. major donors…Becki and her firm stick it out with McCain during the up-and-down 2008 primaries…Becki’s best practices on digital messaging…Becki admires the Obama digital operation…Becki talks the historically expensive Lindsay Graham / Jamie Harrison race of 2020…Becki identifies a “bad practice” within the industry…How Becki’s firm stays on top of a rapidly-changing industry…AND The Biltmore, Charlie Black, Rich Bond, Cambridge Analytica, Chick-fil-A, Citizens for Reagan, Bob Dole, Elizabeth Dole, Frank Donatelli, Carla Eudy, Fairfield Inns, Facebook, Steve Forbes, Barry Goldwater, Tom Hockaday, Brian Jones, David Keene, Walter Knott, Jim Lake, Paul Manafort, George Pataki, skywriters, Roger Stone, John Wayne, John Weaver, YouTube, and more!Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics Podcast

Send us a textVery few people have had more impact on US House races over the past decade than Ali Lapp. After years in campaigns and as a Hill Chief of Staff, she created House Majority PAC from scratch in 2011. With Ali at the helm, HMP has established itself as a vital presence on the political landscape - raising and spending hundreds of millions of dollars to elect Democrats to the House. In this episode, Ali talks her early days in politics in Washington state, her time on the Hill as a Chief, how and why she started HMP, and what she's learned from a decade in the trenches in House races.Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics PodcastIN THIS EPISODEAli’s first political memory…Ali looks back on the pendulum swinging back and forth in Washington state as she grows up…How volunteering for a legislative campaign in college leads to Ali becoming a House Chief of Staff in DC…Ali talks the Hill in the 90s…Ali runs John Kerry’s caucus campaign in 2004…Ali joins the famed Rahm Emanuel-led DCCC team of the 2006 cycle…Ali’s front-row seat at the creation of the “modern-day independent expenditure” …What motivated Ali to start House Majority PAC after 2010…The nuts and bolts of starting HMP from scratch…Ali’s “most depressing moment” in the first year of HMP…What Ali’s learned about fundraising after a decade of raising money…Ali’s take on what mistakes she sees campaigns making…Ali’s favorite example of a “high impact" HMP tactic…The House districts that have most frustrated Ali over the years…The 2006 House race that informs how Ali thinks about going negative in races…Ali’s tips on hiring and managing…AND… Sheldon Adelson, American Crossroads, airplane banners over the Jersey Shore, John Barrow, Melissa Bean, Jeff Bjornstad, Leonard Boswell, Bill Burton, the Christian Coalition, the Congressional Airport Caucus, Howard Dean, Norm Dicks, Brad Ellsworth, Rahm Emanuel, EMILYs LIST, Sarah Feinberg, Geraldine Ferraro, flight attendant school, Tom Foley, Scott Garrett, Josh Gottheimer, Bruce Kieloch, John Lapp, LCV, Warren Magnuson, the MCU, Microsoft, Jen O’Malley, Jen Psaki, Ralph Reed, Christina Reynolds, Karl Rove, Nicole Runge, Adam Smith, Randy Tate, Ellen Tauscher, The University of Puget Sound, David Valadao, Brian Wolff, and MORE!Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics Podcast

Send us a textFaiz Shakir, manager of the 2020 Bernie Sanders' campaign, has worked from the inside (Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid) and the outside (Bernie, the ACLU) to advance the causes in which he believes. Faiz has one of the most versatile and unique resumes in politics. But beyond his professional experience, he has a uniquely American story as a Muslim-American child of Pakistani immigrants who spent his childhood bouncing across Florida before baseball served as his path to Harvard University. Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics PodcastIN THIS EPISODEThe formative role of baseball in Faiz’s early life…lessons that endure today…The Harvard Institute of Politics gives Faiz some professional direction…9/11 is an inflection point in Faiz’s worldview…The early lessons that Faiz learns working for Senator Bob Graham…Faiz embeds at the Center for American Progress during CAP’s early days…Which prominent figured married Faiz and his wife?Faiz works for Nancy Pelosi and heads up the social media operation for House Democrats…Faiz’s leap of faith to work for Harry Reid in the Senate for 4+ years…The first question Harry Reid would ask in every meeting…Faiz’s role as Political Director of the ACLU at a transformative time…How Faiz takes the helm of the Bernie Sanders’ 2020 presidential campaign…Faiz breaks out his best Bernie impression…Why Faiz says being a campaign manager has to be “lonely at the top”…What Faiz learned about running a $200M, 1100-person campaign…The elements of the Sanders’ campaign of which Faiz is most proud of…Faiz gives inside scoop on the Bernie-is-Back / AOC rally...Faiz’s take on the “ideological lanes” theory of the Democratic primary race…Three Sanders’ strategic decisions Faiz would want to handle differently…The one question Faiz believes the primary revolved around…Faiz's advice to the next generation of operatives and activists…AND Lamar Alexander, John Boehner, Tom Brokaw, Pete Buttigieg, Fidel Castro, Anderson Cooper, Ted Cruz, Tom Dooley, Dianne Feinstein, Adele Graham, Bob Graham, Peter Jennings, Amy Klobuchar, Mitch McConnell, More Perfect Union, Brad Parscale, John Podesta, Ari Rabin-Havt, Dan Rather, Bill Richardson, Jane Sanders, ThinkProgress, the Wal-Mart shareholders meeting, Elizabeth Warren, Jeff Weaver, wikileaks … and more!Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics Podcast

Send us a textNo journalist defines his or her state's politics like Jon Ralston and Nevada. Jon's been deep in Nevada politics since the early 80s, rising from the the night police beat to his state's foremost voice on politics. In this conversation, Jon talks through his ascent in Nevada politics, some of the most memorable races and personalities he's covered, the "math" behind today's Nevada elections, and the gamble he took to start his own news non-profit, The Nevada Indpendent. Great episode for anyone interested in politics and political journalism. Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics PodcastIN THIS EPISODE…The one political sign Jon remembers in his yard as a kid…The writer that a young Jon wanted to emulate…Jon’s first beat in Las Vegas is on the nightly crime beat…How Jon fell in love with politics a few years into his career in Las Vegas…What happened when Jon almost left Nevada after the 1986 elections and why he stayed…Jon talks about the 1986 race that launched Harry Reid’s Senate career…Jon’s talks the math behind the “three different states” of Nevada politics…What is the Reid Machine and how does it work so well…?The time Harry Reid called in live on-air to correct Jon…Jon breaks down how the gaming industry influences Nevada politics…Jon talks the influence of the Culinary Union…Jon’s early thoughts on the 2022 Governor and Senate races…Jon riffs on the right pronunciation of Nevada…Jon’s wake-up call to how politics works in the newspaper business…Jon gambles by starting his own journalism outlet, the Nevada Independent, in 2016…The one quality Jon learned is vital in both journalism and running his own business…Jon breaks down his notoriously dogged TV interview style…The one compliment Jon loves getting from viewers…Jon’s hidden gem restaurant recommendation in Vegas… ALSO… Sheldon Adelson, Joe Biden, Catherine Cortez Masto, the Clark County Firewall, Bill Clinton, Ned Day, John Ensign, Brian Greenspun, Kenny Guinn, Rebecca Lambe, Adam Laxalt, Paul Laxalt, Carl Levin, Frank McCulloch, Barack Obama, rabble-rousers and nastygrams, Ronald Reagan, Don Reynolds, Jim Santini, Sinclair Broadcasting, Steve Sisolak, Red Smith, Tony Spilotro, Bob Stoldal, the University of Buffalo, Larry Wallace…AND MORE!Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics Podcast

Send us a textYou won't find a better 59 minutes of political stories and advice than this conversation with longtime GOP media consultant / strategist Mike Murphy. Mike has worked with some of the iconic Republican political names of his generation...McCain, Schwarzenegger, Bush, Romney, Alexander, Engler...and so many more. And there is no better and more enthusiastic political storyteller than Mike Murphy. IN THIS EPISODEMike’s family connection to a “thank you” letter sent from FDR’s campaign manager…Mike talks about how the Cold War defined politics in his early days…A young Mike learns under Arthur Finkelstein…Mike finds himself in Moscow during a momentous moment…How Darth Vader focused Mike on a career in politics…Which iconic GOP House member just needed a 6-pack of Heineken to be the life of the party…Mike’s very specific advice about how to quickly learn the political ropes…Roger Ailes gives Mike an important early break…Mike tells the story of the fabled negative ad against Jesus Christ…Mike talks about the “mentor” model vs the Google model of learning the political craft…Mike talks about the importance of running an incumbent like a challenger…Mike’s great story of the advice he got from crusty old media consultant Bobby Goodman…Mike’s big breakthrough in the Governor’s race in his home state…Mike gets an important call from Bob Dole (with a great Bob Dole impression)…Mike talks the Minnesota race that was “the craziest race he’s ever been in”…Mike doesn’t make any friends at his first (and only) George H.W. Bush White House strategy meeting…Mike’s killer story of how his aborted “man on the street” TV shoot for Bush in ’92 led to getting his access to the top floor of HQ revoked…Mike’s love-letter to the ’96 Lamar! For President race in 1996…Pat Buchanan’s ’96 Iowa stump speech makes Mike fear for his life…Mike talks the McCain magic in the 2000 primaries…John McCain can’t resist needling Steve Forbes…Mike helps engineer the rise of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger…Mike’s advice to any budding media consultant…Mike’s recommendation for a deep cut political movie…ALSO…Roger Ailes, atomic dirigibles, Doug Bailey, James Baker, Jim Blanchard, Rudy Boschwitz, Warren Buffett, Murphy Brown, Pat Buchanan, Jeb Bush, Harry Byrd, Jimmy Cagney, James Carville, Jimmy Carter, Arne Carlson, Alex Castellanos, Bill Clinton, Paul Coverdell, Phil Crane, John Deardorff, Jeremiah Denton, Terry Dolan, Dick Dresner, John Engler, Arthur Finkelstein, Steve Forbes, Wyche Fowler, John Gautier, Barry Goldwater, Jon Grunseth, Adam Goodman, Bobby Goodman, Chuck Grassley, Judd Gregg, Pat Griffin, ham-and-egger debates, Hogan’s Heroes, John Hiler, Mick Jagger, Lyndon Johnson, Ron Kaufman, Dirk Kempthorne, Bill Kristol, Christopher Lasch, Mike’s madras blazer, Mack Mattingly, Larry McCarthy, George McGovern, Joel McCrea, HL Mencken, Dennis Miller, Chris Mottola, NCPAC, Ogilvy on Advertising, Rudy Perpich, Pontius Pilate, Larry Pressler, Dan Quayle, Ronald Reagan, Steve Ricchetti, Mitt Romney, Karl Rove, John Rousselot, Tim Russert, Bernie Sanders, schnitzel at Spago’s, Bob Shrum, Don Sipple, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Greg Stevens, Preston Sturges, Steve Symms, Bob Teeter, Hunter S. Thompson, Donald Trump, the USC Center for the Political Future, John Weaver, Vin We

Send us a textMartha McKenna has been at the upper echelons of politics for years...campaign manager, EMILYs List, the DSCC...and now is a decade in to her own media firm, McKenna Media. Through her firm, Martha has developed something of a Midas Touch - working at critical points in their career with Kamala Harris, Deb Haaland, and Pete Buttigieg. Martha is one of the party's smartest strategists and offers many great insights over the course of this discussion.Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics PodcastIN THIS EPISODE...Martha evangelizes about everything Baltimore…The two famous political alums (in addition to Martha) of Martha’s high school…A third-grade Martha is inspired by Geraldine Ferraro…How the first campaign Martha worked on changed the direction of her life…EMILYs List provides a launching pad for Martha’s career in politics…What was the “best advice to learn about politics” that Martha ever received…Martha’s tips for campaign managers…Martha talks about some of her favorites races as an EMILYs List staffer…Martha manages the race for the first woman to be elected mayor of Baltimore…Martha learns at the DSCC under the tutelage Senator Schumer…Martha tells the story of recruiting Kay Hagan in an underdog North Carolina Senate race…Martha learns important lessons in television strategy from heading up the DSCC Independent Expenditure…Why and how Martha starts up McKenna Media…Martha joins the media team for Kamala Harris’ 2016 race…Martha plays an integral role in Pete Buttigieg’s first campaign in South Bend…Martha's involvement in Deb Haaland’s historic congressional win…The one previous job Martha thinks is a great fit for making the jump to politics…Martha talks about the importance of the group Emerge…Martha gives her itinerary for the perfect Baltimore experience…AND… Joe Biden, Nancy Boyda, Cheryl Benton, Mary Beth Cahill, Guy Cecil, Mary Pat Clark, Sean Clegg, Luke Clippinger, Elijah Cummings, Sharice Davids, Sheila Dixon, Candace Dodson-Reed, Elizabeth Dole, Linda Eberhart, Geraldine Ferraro, Diane Fink, Peggy Flanagan, Ashanti Golar, Chip Hagan, Kay Hagan, Jane Harman, Karin Johanson, Rachel Jones, Delores Kelley, Ellen Malcolm, Salima Marriott, Kweisi Mfume, Barbara Mikulski, Sheila O’Connell, Martin O’Malley, Jen Pihlaja, JB Poersch,  Nancy Pelosi, Odette Ramos, Juan Rodriguez, Loretta Sanchez, Jan Schakowsky, Kurt Schmoke, Carol Shea-Porter, Louise Slaughter, Ace Smith, Joe Solmonese and MORE!Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: The Pro Politics Podcast

Send us a textCharlie Cook is a political icon of his generation. Charlie broke ground in the early days of the race-rating and political newsletter industry, starting the Cook Political Report from scratch in 1984 – and he and his newsletter are still going strong.Charlie talks through his fascinating career and is generous with insights as to how politics and campaigns have changed over the years – with plenty of practical tips to help anyone better understand and better navigate our political system.Podcast Website Twitter: @ProPoliticsPod Twitter: @ZacMcCrary Facebook: The Pro Politics PodcastIN THIS EPISODEThe one political book Charlie remembers being in his house as a kid…High-school Charlie helps out on an underdog Louisiana Senate race…How high school debate helped prepare Charlie for a job in elections analysis..Charlie breaks down the politics of his youth in Louisiana of the 60s and 70s…Charlie remembers his first DC job as an elevator operator in the Russell Senate office building…A young Charlie has a memorable encounter with Senator Jesse Helms…Charlie gives the history of the election newsletter industry…Charlie’s background in polling and campaigns comes in handy…Charlie learns an important lesson from the infamous "bloody" IN-08 congressional race of 1984…Charlie talks about how he started his newsletter in the mid 80s…The important media break Charlie got that helped put his newsletter on the map…The dramatically different subscriber base today from how the Cook Report started…Charlie and Stu Rothenberg meet with VP Cheney before the 2006 elections…Charlies waxes poetic about the Almanac of American Politics…Which committee staffer (and future Governor) was one of Charlie’s best sources of leaks…Charlie gives tips for candidates to prep for meetings with DC handicappers…Charlie’s cryptic comment about a 2004 meeting with then candidate Barack Obama…The one Senate committee chair who talked through races with Charlie independent of committee staff…Charlies talks about the responsibility of knowing his analysis is responsible for impacting races…The recent race result that surprised Charlie the most…Charlie talks about “the worst thing” that can happen in his line of work…Charlie’s tips for TV appearances…The highest compliment Charlie can get from a reader…Charlie’s must-read political books…Charlie talks about the “lost art” of positive political ads…ALSO…Johnny Apple, The Atlantic, Alan Baron, David Broder, Ron Brownstein, Edward Brooke, Bernadette Budde, C-SPAN, CNN, Eric Cantor, Mitch Daniels, Tom Davis, Bob Dole, Jennifer Duffy, Edwin Edwards, Allen Ellender, Rahm Emanuel, Evans and Novak, Vic Fazio, Martin Frost, Cory Gardner, Newt Gingrich, Nathan Gonzales, Phil Gramm, Charles Guggenheim, Bill Hamilton, Peter Hart, Paula Hawkins, F. Edward Hebert, Jesse Helms, Hubert Humphrey, Al Hunt, Laura Ingraham, Bennett Johnston, Gillis Long, Huey Long, Dick Lugar, Sid McMath, George McGovern, Bob Michel, Otto Passman, Kevin Phillips, Roll Call, Stu Rothenberg, Tim Russert, David Sawyer, Bernard Shaw, Bob Squier, Jessica Taylor, Amy Walter, Dave Wasserman, Paul Weyrich, Judy Woodruff, and MORE…!Podcast WebsiteTwitter: @ProPoliticsPodTwitter: @ZacMcCraryFacebook: