One of the benefits of being in business so long is that you learn to take the so-called “failures” as part of the process.But that doesn’t mean you don’t get disappointed.That feeling you get when you’ve worked hard and something doesn’t go as planned or the way you hoped it would. This is when the little kid in you who didn’t get picked for the team or get invited somewhere shows up again.The difference now is that you’re not that child… you’re the adult who chose to be an entrepreneur.Knowing full well that things not going as planned is simply part of the process.It’s what you do with those feelings and results (because no matter how something turned out, you’ve got some data to work with. That’s the beauty of an online business).I’m going to share a bit of what I’ve been through this past week, how I’ve handled it and am still handling it, and how it’s leading to the birth of something new.When Disappointment Leads to ClarityI’m pretty transparent about most things in my life and business.The more I share, the more people connect with me.I also don’t have the energy to be something I’m not or pretend for the sake of appearances or feeding my ego.I recently launched something that didn’t go as I hoped.My initial feeling was a massive disappointment because I’d worked super hard to get to that point (this was a completely revamped version of Email Insiders, which went from a two-month cohort to a 6-month group coaching program).A few months back I shared that I had made a significant investment in my business by signing up for a program and said I’d share more about that later.Well, it’s later. 😉The program was called “Fearless CEO” with Mariah Coz. I say was because they’ve had a pivot and gone back to the name they were recognized for (High Ticket Hybrid) because there was a disconnect with their audience.I won’t go into a bunch of specifics on that because it’s not my business or place to share what they’ve shared with paying clients, but even know they were successful in terms of sales (high 6 figures in two months), they realized they needed to make some adjustments.I’ve invested a little over 13k in this program (yes, seeing that and saying it out loud makes me cringe a little, but fortunately, the content, training, structure, and program are amazing. No regrets).I changed the name to “Email Insiders Accelerator”, and went about doing exactly what I was supposed to (which was a LOT of work). The launch for this is through a live private training (they call it an LPT). To give you an idea, the Google doc to write out that training ended up being 35 pages long (there was a base template and I wrote out my content).I followed the launch plan (they suggest not doing any paid traffic the first time), which meant I was emailing to about 10k people and posting to social.I don’t have any final numbers yet (the cart isn’t closed), but the numbers have been disappointing.I reminded myself that this is a big investment for people (6k) and when I invested in the Fearless CEO program it took me a few days to make that decision.I held my live private training when I still had friends in town.I could have put it off, but I knew I needed to get it done – because it’s WAY too easy to continually put things off or push the date out further. For myself, I needed to pull the trigger.So naturally, my first thought was that I did this too soon (gotta love the ego and all the BS it throws at us, right?).In many ways, I was massively grateful that I had friends in town because I made a very conscious decision to stay present and NOT feed the stories in my head and ruin the few days I had left (we also rented my therapist’s house on the beach and I wanted to soak up every minute of this location).Let me clarify one thing for you… this was NOT easy.I’ve got a lifetime of practice when it comes to telling myself stories that don’t serve me.I’d already spent almost 9k on this program (I took the payment plan) and wanted to recoup my investment. In fact, I’d say that having that mindset going into my launch was part of the reason for the disappointment.ANY time I do something with an expectation of a specific financial outcome, it bites me in the ass. Clearly, this is simply a belief. But keep in mind there is a HUGE difference between an expectation and a goal. I had an expectation and was a little willy-nilly about the goal.My daughter, who works with me, nailed the social media (and quite frankly restored my faith that social media works 😜). We had ALL the pieces in place… except for one thing.I don’t think my message was right.Meaning, that I don’t think the results that I was selling matched the pain point of my audience.Here’s the other thing…I think I have more opportunities to talk to people about why they’re not doing email marketing, what is holding them back, and where they’re stuck.I completely mapped out a solid program (some of the content is done and ready), but my gut tells me that something is off. And instead of guessing or trying to figure out what that something is, I’m going to offer a quick call to everyone who didn’t purchase (I’m also offering new email marketing strategy sessions – which are paid one-off sessions).I’m on a mission.I want to see people find an email marketing strategy that works for THEM. Their audience, their voice, and create a consistent strategy that drives traffic and sales.It’s not rocket science, but I’ve definitely got some deeper digging to do.And I’m O.K. with that.How I Pivoted My Mood & EnergyThis is probably not the first answer most people want to hear, but here we go…I decided to.It was as if I was observing myself and the thoughts that were going through my mind. I was very conscious of what was happening (side note: this is something I’ve been working on for a while and continue to work on… DAILY).Thought management is EVERYTHING.Nothing will impact you more than choosing to manage your thoughts (I did a whole podcast episode on that, you can listen to that here).I brought myself back to the fundamentals:I have enough moneyI know how to sellI have other things to sellI LIVE IN FREAKING COSTA RICA… yes, I had to get a little obnoxious with myselfLike everything else, this too shall passI do a weekly call with my therapist, so instead of waiting to talk to her the Monday after my friends left (we usually talk Monday mornings – it’s a great way to start my week and she’s more or less the only call I do on Monday), I texted her asking if we could talk on Friday morning.I was dropping my friends off at the airport early Thursday morning and knew I’d have a lot to do that day (double-checking the house before returning the keys, unpacking at home, taking a NAP…).I had intentionally left the weekend wide open to rest and get back into the groove of things (i.e., no social plans outside of taking my friend to brunch for her birthday on Sunday).Even though I was feeling better, I wasn’t totally sure I trusted myself with my thoughts so figured the best way to anchor in and pivot was a call with her.I was right.It was during our call that I realized I had a strong belief going into the launch that it wasn’t going to do well. I had a preconceived idea that I needed to “do more work” (I know I’m not the only one with the belief that we’re supposed to “work hard” – mind you, I’ve been working hard all of my life. If sticking with this business for 14 years isn’t working hard I’m not sure I know what is).She made me do something ridiculous…I’m playing when I say she “made” me do something because she’s not like that. I was frustrated when I realized I had more or less set myself up for disappointment and didn’t feel like I knew how to change that belief.She had me get up and do a dance like a little kid who was excited! I channeled that energy and danced around as if things had gone amazingly well.I got so into it that I knocked over a glass of colored pens that sit on my desk. We were on Facetime and I didn’t do it in front of her. I could have just stood behind the camera and not done anything… but this was for me.So I did it.And my mood instantly shifted.Later that day I wrote out two visualizations, then on Saturday I recorded them, put them to music, and have been listening to them a couple of times a day (one is specific about business, one is more general about my life).That energy kept me on a high all weekend long.The last thing I did (and continue to do), is to be gentle with myself. To honor what I did, and what I’ve created, acknowledge it was a learning experience, and recommit to the next time. I enjoyed the rest of my weekend taking it easy and was happy to get back to work on Monday.How this Creates Freedom and Something NewYou would think by now that I wouldn’t doubt myself when it comes to self-responsibility.But I still do… it almost seems too easy (see what I mean? There’s that working hard thing again).Taking stock of things, looking at how you created a circumstance or how your response to a circumstance created something less-than-desirable, is really and truly ultimate freedom.If you created it, that means that you can also create something else.Here’s the “something new” that was birthed this morning (literally).And this isn’t really sussed out in my head, but I’m going to share a bit about it here anyway (and hey, maybe you have some insights or thoughts? Feel free to share them).The deeper I got into email marketing and newsletters the more evidence I got that most people simply won’t do it. This comes down to three things:They’ve decided they can’t so they don’t even tryThey literally don’t know where to start (blank page & blinking cursor anyone?)They don’t need it (i.e., they have plenty of leads and money to buy traffic)I can come up with a counterpoint to each of these points, and honestly, who doesn’t need a subscriber list? (which is an ASSET)But we’ll leave that alone for now.My daughter and I had talked about doing a newsletter agency, where we created newsletters for clients. I don’t advertise it, but I do writing for clients (email sequences, copy, newsletters). It’s not a regular offer I put out because for years I was adamant that I was done with client work.I still am.Kinda. It really depends on the client.That being said, I think I need to differentiate the email marketing & newsletters from my personal brand. Keep KimDoyal as a personal brand, with FtheHUSTLE being the primary message. I may or may not have the same offers on both sites (rebranded of course), but I haven’t decided.A lot of people on my list or who have stuck with me all these years have gone through each of my rebrands. The WPChick, to KimDoyal (with a focus on content marketing), to launching the planner brand (more news on that later), to pivoting to FtheHUSTLE and email marketing.I have a new free email course (Easy Email Marketing) that is doing well and attracts the right people for my email marketing and newsletter offers.Obviously, there are plenty of people on my list that is interested in email marketing and newsletters (and the digital marketing space in general), but it’s certainly a broader audience.I know in order to scale the email marketing & newsletter offers I need to tighten things up.This also gives me the option to not have to be the ‘face’ if I position it as an agency (or productized service… in fact, we may target some verticals. More on that later).I can use what I know to get it up and running, be involved, use my personal brand to drive people to the new business, and hire people to do the implementation.This is all still swirling through my head and I really don’t know what this is going to look like, but I feel like it’s the right direction.Wrapping things upThe purpose of this episode is two-fold: to remind you that you always have a choice in how you handle things and to continue my own process of reframing everything.Disappointments, challenges, failures… whatever you want to call them… are invaluable. They always provide us with information, what we do with that information is completely on us.Here’s to trusting the process.

It’s officially May today (when I’m writing this episode) and at the end of the month, I’m renewing my lease in Costa Rica – for two more years.My plan is to purchase a property down here before the end of those two years and I’m excited to see where this journey takes me.This episode is going to be a look back on the last year, the lessons, and what this all means for my business. I’m about to embark on a new chapter in my business and I honestly feel like I’m about to burst I’m so excited.I’m still a little in awe of the fact that I’ve been living in Costa Rica for a year already. I knew the year would go quickly which is why I didn’t hesitate to sign a year lease (sight unseen – both my place and the country). What was the worse that could happen? I break the lease and head back to the states.I’ve found a lifestyle and way of life that feeds my soul… but it hasn’t been a slam-dunk from day one. I’ve had my moments of doubt, changed my mind, and then came full circle to loving it again.Some of this might be a little redundant (if you’ve been listening or reading over the last year), but hopefully, I can bring a fresh perspective now that I’m hitting the one-year mark.A little backstoryHere’s the TL;DR version of my move to Costa Rica (which you can read more about here).After my youngest graduated high school, I moved out of the Bay Area. I had been planning this move for a couple of years and was looking at Boise, ID. In July of 2019, my world was turned upside down when my Mom passed away at 71.Instead of going straight to Boise, I stayed with my Dad for a while with a couple of trips to Boise in between to check things out.March 2020, right before the world shut down, I moved to Boise, ID.My year in Boise was quiet, which is exactly what I needed. But I knew it wasn’t for me (too cold). When my lease in Boise was coming due I had originally thought I’d stay a few more months and then break it but realized there was no point. Why not just move to Costa Rica? (I had been considering Portugal, but that was pretty far for a first jaunt out of the U.S.).Within a week I found my place in Costa Rica, signed the lease, gave notice, and started packing. I spent two months in California at my Dad’s to get things situated and on May 31st of 2021, I moved to Costa Rica (with the help of my amazing daughter).Adjusting to Life in Costa RicaSince I had never been here I truly had no idea what to expect (which meant I was pretty open to everything). I’ve shared bits and pieces of my life here in other episodes (more in-depth), but my day-to-day is really pretty similar to my life anywhere else, in terms of what I do.That being said, EVERYTHING is different.I recently had friends here for a week (and have more visitors in the coming months) and it was such a gift to see their appreciation for Costa Rica and the life I’ve created here.Before I get into the things that are different and what my life is like here, I want to share some of the less-than-highlight-reel moments.At about 3 months I started feeling a little homesick and kind of wondering if this was the right place for me. I had a trip home at that time (a memorial service for a dear family friend and a border run) so I think that carried me into the fall.I also sold my car in California and purchased a car in Costa Rica when I got back (that’s a whole other conversation). Having a car has made a huge difference down here (I was fortunate to have good friends who took me places or lent me their cars for the first few months, but I’m too independent to not have my own car here).I had friends who wanted to come down but I thought with the rainy season maybe it wasn’t a good time… so I told people to wait (in hindsight it probably would have been good to have someone visit during those months).I missed the changing of the seasons and the cozy ‘hunkering’ down that comes with fall (even though we had plenty of rain and I would just turn my AC on so I could sit under a blanket and pretend it was fall. What hit me the hardest was being here for Thanksgiving – which also happened to be my Mom’s birthday. It was the first time ever that I’d not been with family on a holiday.This is when I started looking at where I would want to live if I moved back to the states.As much as California will always be home to me, I don’t see myself buying a home there again (but never say never, right?). I started looking seriously at North Carolina.Before heading back at Christmas I truly thought I’d be leaving Costa Rica for the states when my lease came due.One trip into L.A. was enough to make me start thinking otherwise.Going from Costa Rica to L.A. is culture shock. Simply because of the number of people in one place and the pace of life. Having grown up in the San Francisco Bay Area I was used to a lot of people, but when you work for yourself and you don’t have to be in the day-to-day commute I had kind of forgotten how impacted California is (at least in these two major areas, and just for reference, there are 7.7 million people in the Bay Area. The entire country of Costa Rica is a little over 5 million. The entire state of Idaho, when I was there, was 1.7 million).I had a wonderful visit at Christmas, even if I cut it short by a few days because of Covid. I got to see all of my family, went to Disneyland with a dear friend (I can skip that for a while… talk about crowded), and hauled back more stuff for my place here.Fast forward to March and I went to L.A. again just to see my daughter for a week. We only spent a couple of days together at Christmas (the rest of the time was in the Bay Area) and it was exactly what we both needed.And again, I schlepped a bunch of stuff back to Costa Rica with me (including an inflatable bathtub! haha).When I got back in March I knew this was where I was supposed to be.At least for a while.EVERYTHING is Different in Costa RicaComing back to my earlier comment about everything being different in Costa Rica…The best way to describe what’s different is to share that it’s a feeling. A vibe if you will.But I know that’s not super helpful, so I’ll be more specific.There is such an ease and simplicity to life down here.I recently had friends here for a week and my friend kept saying that she felt like I was living in a treehouse because of all the windows in my place (and I’m less than a 10-minute walk to the beach. When I sit on my patio I can see and hear the ocean).I used to thrive on how much I could accomplish and how productive I could be (I’m still pretty ambitious, but that comes from a place of trust and desire. I have nothing to prove) – not anymore.When I was thinking of leaving last fall I was really missing the conveniences in the states, which is pretty common, but then I was judging myself for missing those things and felt shallow and materialistic (partly due to a person I was hanging out with at the time and has since moved and we’re not in touch anymore).There are no quick runs to Target or Costco (although there is a Walmart and Pricesmart… about 45 min away). And forget next day Amazon orders (you can order from Amazon, but it will cost you almost double with shipping and customs. Example: I purchased a keyboard tray for a desk I bought down here. The keyboard tray was $59, it cost me $120 (but my wrists are worth it).I was missing being able to drive 5 minutes and walk into a nail salon for a pedicure (there are salons here, but not one on every corner like in the states).The conveniences I was missing were kind of a mask for what I was really feeling (oddly enough, those things don’t bother me now).I have great friends down here and people who have become like family, but I was feeling alone.My go-to with heavier feelings is to try to look for why and make sense of things, instead of just feeling the feelings.I allowed myself that space over Thanksgiving and it was life-changing.The GOOD kind of different in Costa RicaNo preservatives in the food (I feel healthier than I’ve felt in a long, long time)- one of my favorite new dishes is the basic Costa Rican Arroz con Pollo (chicken & rice)No fast food (there are a few places in Liberia and I’m sure there are in San Jose, but nothing local)and delicious and cheap produce everywhereThe slower pace of life – no one is rushed here, it’s all “tranquila”Simplicity – it’s amazing how many things we don’t need when we can’t get them or have access to them (although writing this I can’t think of any beyond the conveniences I mentioned above)Casual – no one cares what you wear down here, it’s all about comfort and fabric (I brought things that I’ll never wear down here and will soon be donating).Ease – this feels redundant, but if you learn to roll with things EVERYTHING feels easierThe beach – enough saidNature – it’s all around youThe people – the majority of the people I’ve met here have been lovelyHow Costa Rica has been good for my businessAnytime you “feel good”, your business is going to do better.My life costs less in Costa Rica (coming from California that’s not hard) which allows me a lot more mental space to dig deeper and do better work.Anytime you feel money pressure or stress (I call this the “money monkey” that sits on your back) it’s hard to feel creative and inspired (unless you make a conscious effort to manage your thoughts – which is the work I’ve been doing this past year with my therapist).Some of the expenses I’ve eliminated being in Costa Rica:car paymentcar insurance (we pay something called Marchamo)I can make it a month without filling my gas tank at timesLess electric – even though people say it’s expensive here, it’s a fraction of the cost of California and I run the air A LOT (pretty much all the time 😂). My electric & fiber optic internet runs me about $280-$300 a month (internet is $70)no DoorDash (we have ‘Guana Eats’ – but I try not to use them too much since I don’t think the restaurants make much at all with that) – and yes, I do have food delivered sometimesAll the ‘extra’ runs (I’m talking to you Target & Costco)Thought management is everything.I ran the second cohort of Email Insiders last fall while I was working one-on-one with a coach. I was working with her to launch an #FtheHUSTLE community and as it got closer, I realized that really wasn’t what I wanted.I knew I wanted to go ALL in with Email Insiders.However, the work I did with her is what prepared me for the new version of Email Insiders (now called “Email Insiders Accelerator – a 6-month group coaching program, launching this month).I happily pay to buy my time back here – whenever possible.I pay to have my place cleaned every week (even though it’s just me & the dogs – although they shed. “Nuff said”). Labor is very cheap here so I try to make up for that anytime I can (it costs me a little over $30 for 5 hours of cleaning).Because I spend so much less overall, I’m able to invest more in my business.I shared recently that I invested in a program (the most I’ve invested in for group coaching) and it is AMAZING.I’ll share the specifics of that program and my results after I’ve launched the Email Insiders Accelerator program (there are specific targets and KPIs to measure, then it moves into an evergreen program).My PRIMARY focus is Email Insiders Accelerator.I truly believe my move to Costa Rica has allowed me the clarity, space, ease, and freedom to create this.All of the things I’ve mentioned about why it’s a ‘GOOD different’ have started compounding.Moving to Costa Rica has been one of the best decisions I’ve ever made… in my life.Some final thoughts on My First Year in Costa RicaI don’t think there is any “perfect place” to live (although this comes pretty dang close).Costa Rica isn’t without its flaws, just like anywhere else.There is a good amount of petty theft (when people earn so little and their wages rely on tourism it’s challenging – let alone all of that being shut down during Covid).The building I live in is locked (there are only 7 units here, and I love all my neighbors) and I feel super secure. The trick with petty theft is that the police don’t do a whole lot about it, so that can be disheartening.However, the same week I read about a robbery down here I also read about another shooting in Sacramento and the subway in New York.So…No matter where you go, people are people and there will be challenges.I’ve asked my friends who have lived here for a long time (ex-pats) how they feel about all the development going on in this area (beyond prices going up, even when I moved here a year ago my therapist was surprised at the cost of rent – she’s had property here for about 15 years).On one hand, the development is great because it creates jobs, on the other hand, you don’t want people moving in with a sense of entitlement or attitudes that change the feel of this beautiful country.I don’t know what the answer is to that (and I think we’ll continue to see a lot more Americans moving out of the U.S.).I focus on what I can control: which is to be respectful and kind to everyone, regardless of where I am or who I’m engaging with.I jokingly say that I live in a bubble.I don’t watch the news, I don’t engage with negative people (at least not very long), I love what I do and my focus is on getting better at my craft and serving my audience.I appreciate and am grateful for all of the people in my life and the amount of nature and beauty that I choose to live in.This feels like a magical time in my life and I’m giddy about where this adventure is going to take me.My intention is to share more about my life in Costa Rica this coming year. I have no idea what that looks like, but it’s time.If you’ve ever wanted to live outside of the U.S. (or your home country), my advice is to do it. There was a time in my life when I never would have thought this was possible.It all starts with a decision.You’d be amazed at how things line up and the Universe conspires to make it happen.

Kim Doyal 0:00 Before we get into today's episode, I have a quick message for my sponsor cloudways. cloudways is a managed cloud hosting platform that simplifies your web hosting experience. The platform allows businesses to focus on their growth and have complete peace of mind with 24/7. Support and flexibility to scale. Can we just say support is hugely important when it comes to hosting. And thanks to cloud wise they are offering an exclusive discount for the Kim Doyal show listeners, visit cloudways.com and use a promo code Chem 20 to get 20% off for two months on the hosting plan of your choice. Alright guys, let's get into today's episode. Welcome to F the hustle. I'm your host, Kim Doyal. You want a life that is meaningful and exciting. In this podcast, we're going to talk about launching and growing an online business that fits your lifestyle. F the hustle is all about doing good work, building real relationships, and most importantly, creating a business that supports how you want to live your life. You don't have to sacrifice the quality of your life today to create something that sets your soul on fire. And yes, that includes making a lot of money. So we'll be talking about selling, charging what you're worth, and help earning more means helping more people. My goal is to help you find freedom and create a business on your terms. Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of the podcast at the hustle with Kim Doyal. I of course am your host Kim Doyal. And I'm really excited today a because my guests and I have only chatted sort of via online. This is really our first time getting to connect in person, which I'll take in person video any day over just email. But we're going to talk about growing an agency. She's got a great YouTube channel. There's a lot of stuff I'm going to pick Nicole's brain about but let's welcome my guests. Nicole Osborne of Wonder stars. Thank you for being here, Nicole.Nicole Osborne 1:51 Oh, Kim, I'm so excited to be here. I think I told you I'm a total fan girl. So to have you in Costa Rica. And thank you for having me.Kim Doyal 2:01 You're, you know, it's so funny. You know, you're just like you and like if people say that to me, and it's so funny. I used to tell my kid my family. Like you know, you guys, I'm famous on the internet. And nobody believed me until like, my niece was 12. And she Googled me which it was all like blog posts and links and stuff. And I'm like, well, somebody believes me. But anyways, thank you.Nicole Osborne 2:19 I'm on my seven year old. I'm speaking to Kim. She's in Costa Rica.Kim Doyal 2:24 Well, and you're in Germany, like this is what I love about are you in Germany. Oh, no.Nicole Osborne 2:29 What? German based in London. Oh, even matter. I talked to someone today in Florida and someone in Pakistan. So actually, today's International Day. I'm loving it. It totallyKim Doyal 2:41 is. It's so funny when when and for people. I'm really curious. And you guys have promised we're gonna get into the interview here. But this is what I love about people in my offline world. Right who it's normal life day to day and it was like I was talking with I'm sure your friends at Pizza Neary this morning. I'm like, No, she's an Italian, who spent a ton of time in London. And now she lives in Spain. Like, this is why I love this. It's like the world is huge and small all at the same time.Nicole Osborne 3:07 I love I love pizza. I just communicated with her via LinkedIn, chatting about her amazing program. And I think she's absolutely nailing it on LinkedIn. And I just think she's so authentic. And have you seen her artwork? She sometimes publishes that on Facebook. She's oh my gosh, yes. Talented. Wow.Kim Doyal 3:23 Oh, yeah. No, we literally just talked this morning for like over an hour. And that's part of the goal. Mike, you need to come to Costa Rica, I need to come to Spain. And actually, I was supposed to go to London in May of 2020. So that is still on the list. But anyways. Okay, so before we get into and again, your site is one wonder stars and for people listening, it's Wu, like you're awesome. Wu, n d e r s t ARS. Everything will be in the show notes. But I love hearing the backstory and try it or not. I want to hear what got you into this, besides the fact that you're efficient and logical, which I loved in your bio, because you're super fun, too. So like, let's have a little bit of your background and how you how you got here.Nicole Osborne 4:06 Thanks so much, Kim. So my parents and I, we we grew up in former Eastern Germany. And you've got to know that there weren't any sort of companies really out there. Everything was state owned, but my parents were really entrepreneurial. So as the Wall came down, they came up with their own ventures and have always helped them like one of the first thing I did was helping them to sell sunglasses in a small seaside town, and I was responsible for picking the best shades and really making people feel good spend some money but really feel good. So I have this intrapreneurial sense that was kind of sent fun. Then I came to England I wanted to learn the language. I met my now husband. Yes, I'm still here. I wanted to study marketing because I knew I wanted to study something I could I could really put into action. So I studied Marketing. I started my corporate marketing career. Always wanted to be a marketing director for some reason or the other. I got to Marketing Director, it was great. But my God be precious of like having a young child going to board meetings. But what I have done for years and years and years, I've always worked with agencies, I was in a position of choosing agencies having really good partners. So when I started my own business, I started lollipops social of Kim, I didn't even like lollipops. Made my son feel really good. When I took him to the hairdresser, we traveled back to Germany. So I figured lollipop was good sort of fun. I transitioned into winter Sass about a year ago really to kind of grow up. And really continuing my work with agency owners, I mostly work with agency owners one on one. And I help them to uncover their personal brand, what they stand for, to really improve their marketing so that they can pick their best with clients, you know, the clients who follow the processes who sent the content on time fun to work with, get what you do pay well, and yeah, I love doing it. So yeah, here I am with one of the stars. And you know, I've been listening to your podcast, I featured it on my on my YouTube blogs, because it's such a cool podcast for anyone building up an audience where you have an online journey, because you always keep it so real. And there's so many actionable tips. So hence me being total fangirl being here.Kim Doyal 6:13 Like this is supposed to be about you. But you know, and I'm curious. This is again, everybody who listens knows I love to go off script. And what one I love that you pivoted the name, I mean, I went from the word pressure to Kim Doyal. And I'm even looking at as I grow, where is there an element of the company having certain things under it? My company name is marketing online media. Nobody even knows that. And it's a mouthful. But it was, what I'm curious about for you is, as you've shifted, and I get the whole, like my company was growing up, and it was time to step into this, you know, have you found in terms of even whether it's processes or how you hire who you work with? For and this is really a female specific question, right? And I love my my male listeners, you guys, I've got you there. But there is we're wired differently. So I'm just gonna go ahead and say that. And I feel that as women. I don't know how old you are. But as women get older, like there is a sense of you start claiming your expertise, are you gonna whisper you can whisper later or unless you want to share it? To five? Girl? All right, all right, I'm 51. We're good. So but there is you hit this point. And it's, there is this. I like taking a stance almost. And so in really shifting and saying you want to grow your grow up a little bit was you know, what was sort of the the mindset and the thought behind, I'm going to claim this space. And then we'll talk about you know, you've jumped full in into YouTube also. So just kind of tell me what that process was like.Nicole Osborne 7:46 I guess one of my biggest issues I had with my original company name lollipop socialists had people really assumed it had done for you social media services. And I learned really early on that. I bring all this marketing experience and just doing social media for someone who just wasn't taking all my boxes. And you know, it's not great when you have a name and you continuously have to explain what you do. And I thought, right, you know what, I'm all about marketing, let's rebrand. But let me tell you, it's, it's an exciting, but equally exhausting journey, right? When you change everything around, you put yourself out there. But I had the most amazing agency and, you know, I have a really cool networks that I was talking to people like emergent Allen at the time. Lee Jackson, you know, do you think I'm doing the right thing. But it was so important for me to have a sense of fun still in there, but something really confident as well. And I was determined to have a.com I know that's really silly.Kim Doyal 8:37 Really? I mean, if you can, why not? Right?Nicole Osborne 8:41 And you never know anything happened that I decided on my brand name. And then one of the social media handles kind of disappeared. I'm like, oh, no, boy, I'm making up a word to you let me have a name. But yes, it was also as you said about growing confidence. Do you know I think it's always really important. You choose a business name, you have to be able to say it with a high levels of energy that you have to picture yourself on that stage. Am I going to be comfortable saying hey, I'm Nicole from with the stars, and I really am. So yeah, it was about growing up. And it's also, you know, working with digital agencies. These guys are amazing. They do amazing jobs for their clients also have really high expectations. So I didn't want to be mediocre because particularly I'm all about helping guys and girls to stand out. And to not blend into the background. So I had to sort of do something which reflected that transformation. But yeah, it's it's been a journey and I've loved every minute of it. And it's still up and down. You know, I think is really part of it all. But yeah, I'm really happy with the side and I had some really great results coming in and some amazing feedback. So thank you for asking me this. Even my podcasts will leave where we talk about the whole transformation of a brand and he even interviews with agency. I thought it was a really cool sort of different perspective on it.Kim Doyal 9:48 It totally and I do love your site. It's super colorful. I like bright colors too. I'm just more of a which kind of reflects your personality and energy also, I think it's totally in alignment. But one of the things I wanted to specifically dig in. So you love marketing. And I know so you've you explained sort of the journey here. But what I think is fascinating too, is I mean, agencies know, they need to market they get it. And I felt this. And let's just be really clear that we all bring our own shit to the table, right. So I do know that a lot of this was sort of my own perceptions and stuff. Because I totally felt like an imposter is the word pressure, because I'm not a coder or developer. But yet I fell in love with this tool. I just like to share what I was doing. And it evolved. Ignorance was bliss when I started. But I've also seen that like, how I felt sort of in that space was like it this push pull against marketing at times, because agencies just want to kind of do the work. And there is this specifically in the WordPress space, but anti selling anti marketing. And, you know, and again, I'm really not in the WordPress community a whole lot other than having a lot of friends there. But, you know, did you find any resistance? Or how did you approach saying, You guys need to start marketing?Nicole Osborne 11:03 Yeah, I mean, actually, yeah, complete amount, because it's, I guess, it's not planned resistance. But it's like, it's so passionate about the client projects, that they get so engrossed into that, that they don't really do too much about generating leads in the future. Now, then they get really trapped in this whole feast and famine rides really, really busy, or there's not enough work. Or we're really heavily rely on referrals. And can I get it, I guess, when you work, and you choose a digital agency, it's a huge risk. So of course, you're going to ask in your network, do you know a good agency, but in a way for that agency, they really get stuck on that price point. And I think agency owners to me, I mean, everyone has got different definitions of success. But one thing I really learned from interviewing all the agency owners I did for my agency growth book is that, for everyone is different. And for some people, it's really, I want to be able to charge while they're so that I can really offer a transformational project to my client, I really want to give them what they need to grow and take their business to the next stage, which usually involves you've got to have better processes, you've got to be able to chat Valpo. So then you do your marketing, you kind of get there much quicker, because you can become that go to person, you know, you step out of that whole entire invisibility. I mean, I didn't know it was funny. I'm currently doing some research into SEO agencies, because I'm going to be talking at Brighton SEO. And my talk is very much about you know, the more you get better clients, many SEO agencies, oh, my God, they're all blue. They're all Uber professional. They're all right content, which is like for the search engine versus for human. And yes, hardly any people inside. It's lots of stock photos. Now, when you end up competing on price, right, because you kind of a commodity, because there's so many of you offering that. So I really do a lot of educational content. And I always share examples of this, you know, if you only did that this is what you could achieve. So you could be that go to person, every time you send your proposal. Everybody made up your mind, they're going to be working with you. Because you're the expert in that sphere. I guess, you know, we're always a kick out of working with people who are marketing reluctant.Kim Doyal 13:01 Yeah, yeah.Nicole Osborne 13:03 I've generally do I always get bored when people say to me, you can totally get by we need to do is, I want to have that challenge.Kim Doyal 13:09 Or like, I want to flip you, I'm gonna tone you. Yeah. That's funny. Well, but you know, what's interesting, too, and specifically with the SEO piece, as you know, my hashtag, everything is content. I've tried drilling this down to people so much. And the thing about it is some of my highest traffic, most highly converting content has nothing to do with a damn keyword that would serve anybody. It brings people into my space. And I have this thing I call my core content values. I'm like, my core content value is that I want people to feel better for me engage with my content, you're going to learn something, you're going to be entertained, or I'm going to, we're going to connect that kind of soul level, right? And I just, I mean, and what I see, and I'm curious if you see agencies too, is they do get hung up, I get as soon as people get like, well, I've got to write keywords, I've got, I've got SEO, I've got SEO and I'm like, you know, you do it matters 100% But at the same time, you know, I started out in 2008 in this space, and it was a lot easier to get pulled up. It's the long game, SEO content. All of that is the long game. But there's elements to marketing where you can connect quicker and make a splash and it's that personal connection. Right. Go ahead. Sorry.Nicole Osborne 14:29 Absolutely. And so my strategy is often I do my best for people to have quick wins I just had this conversation earlier with someone in Florida Great guy, great agency so much potential. So we had a brainstorm on on lead generation because I know once that person does that and gets the team involved, it will automatically call that's the next thing we can do to to really set up a personal running. Do you know can? It's often lots of confidence. I chatted to someone based in Ireland yesterday. Really successful agency owner and it's a confidence thing of color have nothing interest seemed to say, what really, I have nothing going on. I used to do surfing. But now I'm not really fit any longer. So I can't talk about the surfing. So we kind of dug a bit deeper. And we figure out other stories, that person was really comfortable sharing. So it's a bit like, do you know Dave, for you? I mean, he's an amazing guy, right? Oh, he's a wonderful online entrepreneur. And he really didn't feel very, very brave when it came to sharing his story. So what we did actually, we figured out, so what's the anti version? How do you not want to come across and for him, it was douchey Dave who would pretend to own sports car and be shouting into the camera and, you know, you smiling now because that's really not how he comes across. So we figured it out. And then we dug into his stories. And we've we've thought about so the viewer audience there, what are the best stories for you to connect, what will make them feel like you can help them with a transformation thereafter. And boy, he's, you know, he's taking it to another level, I don't know, when you get a chance to have a look on his website, he's published his story. And it's so powerful, you sit there and read it, and you get goosebumps. Now, I'm not saying I can always achieve that level of transformation. But you want to have that real personal connection with the best person you want to work with. Right? And so personal branding, storytelling, putting yourself out there, and not being afraid of actually letting, letting go that need to be professionalism, because my experience is for agency owners. As soon as I want to be too professional, really boring.Kim Doyal 16:25 Yeah, I keep when I see sites like that, um, all right, Microsoft wants our website back, like here, we got like, circa 1995, right. It's just like stock photos that the whole the whole nine yards of the nine yards. And, in the thing is like, where you were saying, like with Dave, you know, it's fun. Because for those of us who know him to see the trajectory of his career, and you know, he's just doing phenomenal. And I love when Dave shares Oh, it's those little bits, like, you're happy, like other building a house. That's phenomenal, right? And we all know, Dave's a musician, and, you know, so you start seeing these pieces. And you just start thinking, Oh, I have a friend that that plays guitar. I mean, you have no idea these little I, I joke around that, like one of my biggest regrets was not getting into email earlier. But I think there's a piece there that ties into your marketing. And it's when you start understanding the psychology of how human beings connect, and what drives them to do things. It's like going into a portal of a magic kingdom,...

Email Marketing really is the holy grail of business.It’s the only thing I regret not putting time and energy into sooner, but as they say, there’s no point crying over spilled milk.Here’s my intention with this episode:Not only will you be fully vested in making email marketing a priority in your business, but you’ll also have a solid understanding of why (this is more important than you think) and exactly what you should do to get started.From the first moment I began in this amazingly crazy, wonderful, and frustrating world of internet marketing (I know you all know what I’m talking about), the message that the “money is in the list” has been as consistent as gravity.The problem with this message is that even though we “get it”… we don’t really “get it” until we dig in (how’s that for an ambiguous statement).There are 3 different phases in the online marketing space:Newbie: People here are just getting started, full of enthusiasm and excitement for all the possibilities in front of them. They’re committed to doing whatever it takes to make their dream a reality.Knows enough: This phase is probably the most dangerous. People here have had some success, some failures, they know enough to do the work, but they tend to keep looking for the ‘ONE’ thing that will get them to the next level. In this phase, you keep working but it feels a bit like spinning your wheels.Mastery: This is where the magic happens (and the best way to get there is through DOING THE WORK). You know that you need to do more than “know enough” to get to where you want to be. There’s nothing wrong with knowing enough but in order to grow and scale you have to go deeper, not learn more.Everything I’ve done along the way to get to where I am today has been invaluable, but who you become at the mastery level is an entirely different ballgame.And to make sure we’re all on the same page with mastery, the definition and explanation I’m using is: “comprehensive knowledge or skill in a subject or accomplishment.”I think of mastery as ongoing learning and a desire to consistently improve.The second phase (knows enough) is the most dangerous because you can end up stuck there.There will always be people who know less than you, and you can serve them with integrity and truly help them at this level. However, there will always be people who know more than you.If you feel like you’re stuck in the “knows enough” phase my challenge to you is to go deeper. Find someone who knows more than you and show up like an excited 5-year-old on the first day of kindergarten.Back to Email Marketing…With so much changing online in terms of privacy and tracking, paid traffic is becoming more challenging (particularly if you’re just getting started with it) and more expensive. It will always work and when you can you should definitely invest in it, but until then, you need a reliable source of traffic.Which is your email list.Think of email as a marketing channel you own where you get to create and control the conversation.Here are a few statistics from Hubspot’s annual “Ultimate List of Email Marketing Statistics for 2022”:There are 4 billion daily email users.78% of marketers have seen an increase in email engagement over the last 12 months.4 out of 5 marketers said they’d rather give up social media than email.81% of B2B marketers say their most used form of content marketing is newsletters.I’ve linked to the full article above and if you’re listening, you can just search for Hubspot’s email marketing statistics and you’ll find the article.Everything I do on social and with my content is to drive people to get on my email list.Period.End of story.Once they’re on my list I can focus on creating a relationship with them. Some people may jump in and want to work with me right away and other people may subscribe and spend years on my list before purchasing.That’s O.K., I’m in this for the long haul.None of this means you don’t sell to people in the early stages, because you do.You simply need to do it in a way that even if they choose not to buy from you, they still want to stay on your list.There are all kinds of reasons people choose not to buy, it doesn’t mean your offer isn’t right. It’s simply not right at this moment.Getting StartedIt’s probably safe to say that the majority of people on my list or listening to the podcast understand the basics of email marketing (the ‘knows enough’ phase).If your front-end offer (lead magnet), isn’t converting very well then you need to look at what you’re offering.The challenge here is understanding the factors that go into whether or not it’s converting, especially if you don’t have something for sale at any point of this campaign (think of your opt-in offer and follow-up sequence as a campaign).Things to look at:How often are people signing up? (look at your traffic, how many times you’re promoting it, etc.).How often are people unsubscribing? (how often are you emailing?)How often do people reply to your emails?These are the basics, but it’s enough to get you started.Recently I tested using Revue to get people to sign up for my #FtheHUSTLE newsletter via my Twitter profile. It was a weird sign-up in that it used Revue but I write my newsletter in ConvertKit and publish it to my site. The tool I used took people to Revue, which then showed that I had zero newsletters published there.I started clicking through to view the subscriber record when people were unsubscribing and 90% of the time they had come in through that Revue sign up.Needless to say, I removed it.These subscribers didn’t convert into long-term subscribers.Spend WAY more time on your lead magnet than you think you should.I remember when I had connected with an ‘old school’ internet marketer years ago and she told me to change my lead magnet to something like “the 3 biggest mistakes you’re making with ‘X’.”She was coming from a place of a better hook and in this case, using a pain point to entice people to sign up. I did it, and it worked pretty well, but it lacked one thing.There was no depth.Which in turn means no real value.There are a lot of lead magnets out there that are cheat sheets, tips, checklists, etc. ALL are completely valid front-end offers (top-of-funnel) – but how does it leave your new subscribers feeling after they consumed the material?The goal of your lead magnet is to solve a problem for people, just like your products and services should be doing. Always come back to the transformation (result) that you’re promising.Some people might tell you not to spend this much time on a lead magnet, but the higher quality your front end offer is the higher the likelihood that subscriber sticks around and becomes a customer.Fortunately, the days of regurgitating crap are coming to an end. Your customers are smarter and there’s only so much time in the day.Don’t take that for granted.When you think about what to create for your lead magnet you want to think about the customer journey. The program I’m in talks about the “client continuum.”What this means is that you have ONE ideal client but they’re at different points on the client continuum.Here’s the down and dirty quick explanation of this.My ideal client (the image uses the term ‘champagne client’ – but that’s from the program I’m using so until I come up with a better name, I’ll use ideal client) not only knows email marketing should be their priority, but they’re committed to making it work.The four different stages on the client continuum are:They’re probably collecting emails (have a sign-up and maybe a lead magnet and welcome sequence).In the second stage, they’re probably sending the occasional email, some work, some don’t. Nothing to write home about.In the 3rd stage, they start creating some momentum and are focused on list growth and sending consistent emails (usually a newsletter or at least a weekly email).The 4th stage is where my ideal is (or aspires to be). They are 100% committed to getting email marketing to work, it’s their primary traffic source, and they’re consistently earning a minimum of $1k-$1500 a month via email (this is excluding any sort of launch or promotion).Knowing this makes it a thousand times easier to look at what I should create at the front end to help people build this foundation and take them on this journey.With this clarity, I created “Easy Email Marketing.”It’s an email course that directly teaches email marketing in a unique way. I used a framework from Brennan Dunn called “Lesson Bridge Pitch Survey” and it’s working brilliantly.This wasn’t something I whipped out in Canva one afternoon.I spent a lot of time outlining this email course, writing the emails, and setting everything up to make this the primary lead magnet on my site (and am still switching it out. I also have my newsletter on my site…we’ll see which one converts better 😉).In my case (compared to the visual), I have 15 emails total in the follow-up sequence. But remember, the lead magnet itself is an email course.Your follow-up sequence doesn’t have to be this long.I know you might be thinking this is a LOT of work and you’re right.But wouldn’t you rather create something really valuable once and focus on refining it as opposed to creating a bunch of crappy lead magnets that don’t bring in your ideal customers???THIS is the work that leads to mastery.After the Lead Magnet is DoneYou need to start emailing your list consistently.Novel idea, right?I get that it can be a little daunting if you’re not comfortable doing this or don’t feel like you have the writing chops to get this to work.Do it anyway.Pick ONE type of email you can send weekly and send it without fail.My personal favorite is a newsletter, but you don’t have to start there. You can simply do a weekly update with one call to action.Once you’re emailing consistently and have a trusting relationship with your subscribers you can send emails with a call to action, but the goal is to get people in the habit of clicking links in your email.It doesn’t have to be something for sale (if you can great, but do what feels right for you).What I LOVE about newsletters is that you can treat it more like a publication, you can curate content, and it’s simply a value add. You can also get great data based on what people click on and how they respond (confession: I get a little bummed when I get zero responses to a newsletter 🤣).Don’t overthink this.The goal is to write and send an email consistently!You create a better relationship with your subscribers and it starts getting easier and easier as you do it.The other piece of this is that you need to be promoting your lead magnet. Over, and over, and over again.Share it on social, ask your subscribers to share it, make sure it’s the link in your bio on your social profiles, and add a link to any additional platforms you publish on (Medium as an example). Go ALL in. Give the thing you created a chance to shine.In other words, the best lead magnet won’t convert without traffic.Put the time and energy into promoting it, just like you did with creating it.To wrap this up, I want to point out one thing I DIDN’T mention, which was very intentional.You’ll notice I didn’t get into any of the more advanced strategies and things some people will tell you you have to start with.TaggingSegmentingPersonalizationConditional logicTo name a few…ALL of these things are valuable and work.But you do NOT need them to get started.If you’re using not understanding these things as a reason not to do email marketing then I’m telling you right now you don’t need them.You simply need to know WHO you’re talking to (ideal client), a quality lead magnet that solves a problem for them, a good follow-up sequence (ideally with an offer at the end), and a commitment to start emailing consistently: minimum of once a week.Get that working and then you can step into the next phase of creating your Email Engine.

Before we get into today’s episode, I have a quick message for my sponsor Cloudways. Cloudways is a managed cloud hosting platform that simplifies your web hosting experience. The platform allows businesses to focus on their growth and have complete peace of mind with 24/7. Support and flexibility to scale. Can we just say support is hugely important when it comes to hosting and thanks to Cloudways they are offering an exclusive discount for the Kim Doyal show listeners. Visit cloudways calm and use the promo code KIM20 to get 20% off for two months on the hosting plan of your choice. Alright guys, let’s get into today’s episode.Welcome to F the hustle. I’m your host, Kim Doyal. You want a life that is meaningful and exciting. In this podcast, we’re going to talk about launching and growing an online business that fits your lifestyle. After the hustle is all about doing good work, building real relationships, and most importantly, creating a business that supports how you want to live your life. You don’t have to sacrifice the quality of your life today to create something that sets your soul on fire. And yes, that includes making a lot of money. So we’ll be talking about selling, charging what you’re worth, and how earning more means helping more people. My goal is to help you find freedom and create a business on your terms.Kim Doyal: 0:00Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to another episode. I’m really excited. Today, my guest is going to talk about something that we all need are probably not doing well and can do a little bit better. So my guest is John Ainsworth of Data-Driven Marketing. Thank you so much for being here today.John Ainsworth 1:36I’m delighted, what an honor.Kim Doyal 1:40Yeah, so we connected and we do have to give the listeners a little bit of a backstory because we’re recording this and you’re getting a November and I think it’s kind of fun. We connected through a good friend, Jimmy rose, James rose, depending on where you’re connected with him online. And John is in Mexico, and I’m in Costa Rica. So we’re sort of having this tropical conversation today. Yeah.John Ainsworth 2:03We’re both just loving the fact that it’s beautifully warm in November, it is a wonderful thing.Kim Doyal 2:11It is, I think I’m going to be in shock going back to California in December, even though it’s California, it definitely cools off in the winter. So I’m like, What am I gonna wear? Did I bring anything to wear?John Ainsworth 2:23And I have it on my packing list when I travel. If it’s going to be cold when you go back, pack a jacket, and hat and scarf, and gloves and just like don’t get to the airport and go, Oh God, what am I done?Kim Doyal 2:37I mean to wear flip-flops and get out and snow this is.John Ainsworth 2:41Exactly yeah.Kim Doyal 2:43Anyways. Yeah. So I’m totally excited to talk about this day, John, because, you know, it is there was a time when funnels were not a common marketing language. It’s what you guys do. But before we get into that, how did you get into your funnels? But how did you start your online business what’s a little bit of backstory, I love hearing how people got to where they are.John Ainsworth 3:05So this is my second business. And my first one was I used to work in sport and physical activity marketing, I used to be campaigns manager for Sport England, who’s like the National Organization for sport in England. And I’d run campaigns for them. And then I set up a business on my own. And I would do that for local government and health charities. And I would get inactive people into physical activity cancer patients, disabled people, people from teenage girls was a really hard one actually harder the toddler to get teenage girls active than it is to get cancer patients. And I’mKim Doyal 3:42just gonna let that sink in for a minute. But that’s pretty funny. What you should do is send them on a scavenger hunt to find their phones. Go ahead. Yeah.John Ainsworth 3:51So I ran that for about 10 years. And it was business and I was running it online most of the time. But it didn’t work for like what I really wanted, which was to work completely remotely, you know, go to Mexico, go to Portugal or go to wherever around the world for long periods of time, because I needed to go to meetings and go connect with people to get jobs in. And so I close it down a few years ago and I set this up. And so I was like looking around and figure out why we’re already been building these funnels for getting people interactivity. Where else do people want funnels? And I didn’t kind of know-how well it would go and I tried it out with E-commerce and online courses. It turns out online businesses want funnels an awful lot more than the government does. They really were like, Oh, that was a lot easier. Why was I making my life so hard for so many years? Like fine, okay. And so I kind of narrowed down to just working with online courses from there because we just found that we had the best bond like it’s I find online course creators tend to be someone who’s a real expert something is a really good person who really wants to Sharan, teach this thing. And they’re spelled spent a long time building up an audience. And so I found like, Oh, these are really good people, I really liked working with them. And this is they tend to be kind of a good fit. And it was somewhere where we got good results as well. So that’s how we kind of got into this niche.Kim Doyal 5:16Excuse me, I was gonna try to like, mute that. And it just came on. Why? I would think too, you know, because your niches course craters that I hadn’t said that. So I’m glad you pulled that in his course creators also, you know, unless they’re brand spanking new, but either even with that, they probably help make your job a little easier in the sense that they’ve, they’ve created a curriculum, they’ve got a process, they’ve got steps, so you can pull that out for coffee and marketing and, and how to actually craft the campaign a little bit, right? Because there’s content in there. So. So in terms of the course, craters, so you pivoted, and I’m guessing, did you? Did you create a funnel to find these people that you could work with?John Ainsworth 6:00No, it’s an interesting one, right. So that’s kind of, I would say, a funnel is not generally the place to start, you don’t if you’ve got a new business, you’re like doing something for a new audience. And you go and build a funnel if it turns out that you’re wrong in some of your hypotheses is like, Okay, this isn’t the right niche, or I need to change the messaging slightly here or whatever, then it’s a load of work to redo the whole funnel again. So what I was doing is mostly just networking relationship building, like I’m in a business network with Jimmy that you mentioned before, called the DC. And I just would do loads of stuff for free for people in there and find out who wanted some more help, you know, and then I got referrals from in there, and I went on some podcasts and that kind of thing. So that was it for a long time. And we didn’t take on that many clients for quite a long time. Because it’s like, we have to get really, really good at this before we start to scale it at all. Because if you start to scale something kind of mediocre, or, or even if it’s good, but it requires just so much work because everything has to be figured out as you go along. It’s a nightmare. But if you can get like everything dialed in and then start to scale it up, then it’s way easier. So now we have funnels and we’ve tried ad sets doesn’t really work for us, we do most of our work through just going and doing. Probably you would approve. It’s through content. We go and we share content with other people’s audiences. They go on podcasts and teach people about funnels. I go and do presentations for the people’s audience. I just did a webinar for analytics, and their audience earlier today. Oh, yeah, yeah. Might be doing one for teachable at some point this month. So that kind of thing. Just go and teach about this stuff. And some of the people are like, Could you help me more with this? And so that’s just always been my, my kind of style is like, help people as much as you can, and then some of them want more help? So yeah, that was kind of how we got going.Kim Doyal 7:52Okay, well, here’s sort of a random and you’ll learn quickly, John, I go off script quite a bit here. But so from that perspective, but because I love that process, you know, and it’s like, I’ve, I’ve recently gotten into just putting an email out, look, I’m going to do this program, it’s a pilot, I only want this many people, we’re gonna do it together. And I, I spend way more time with people than I committed to because I’m trying to find those pain points and have those conversations. And then it’s, it’s been magical, it has been the easiest thing I’ve ever sold or offered, and the relationships really deep. So that being said I have an audience, and I’ve got a list already. So that type of an offer is easy to put out. So if someone’s getting started, is there a way to kind of bring in revenue pre-funnel while you’re gathering that data? Because the thing is, like, I get the doing stuff for free and make and the relationship building. But if someone’s listening, and they’re thinking, that’s great, John, I didn’t have the money to just go work for free. Like, how would you recommend or suggest or what are some ways to kind of step into that?John Ainsworth 8:57Yeah, I mean, I can only really, I guess, speak for that one, like what’s worked for me but like when I say I did stuff for free, I only mean for like, it was really a month or something like that I was doing I did these audits. So it was an I did it for six people I think and two of them asked if they could sign up as clients and one of them is still with me now. And I was kind of shocked at the time I was just like testing the market to see what’s out there. But I think like for getting started just going and finding people who have got a pain point like the way of here’s the way I’ve always done it when I’m trying to get started on trying to get going at something is talk to a lot of people as many as I can. So whether it’s at networking groups or in a business network or through masterminds or relationships you know, people you already know who they know whatever. And with no, no pitch at all. Just go and talk to people about their problems. And I find people love to talk about the problems they are they are mad keen to have someone listen to them bitch about their problems. And then if one of those problems is something that I can help with generally say, like, I’ll help them during the conversation if I can. And then like I say, What do you want help with that? And it’s the, it’s the least pitchy pitch that, you know, I could possibly do is like the, they could say no, very, very easily, it’s very comfortable to say no, it doesn’t feel like I’ve just tried to sell them something. But if they say that would be great, okay, cool. And then I would set up a call or you know, a meeting or whatever, and go through it with them. And maybe they just wanted help for an hour or something. But maybe, then they actually want someone to come and do it, what I would often find is people would say, Well, can you just do this for me? Can you just sort this out? You seem right, you know, can you just make this problem go away. And so that will get me started and that I do all kinds of it. I don’t think it’s a long-term way, to run a really profitable business, because you end up doing so many random things, but it gets some money coming in, and you get to identify problems. And when you find, ah, I’ve had three people with that same problem. Okay, cool. Maybe that’s my thing, maybe I’ll try and find more people like that. And you kind of narrow down on to that. So I found that was way easier to get some work in when I started doing that than I, then I do now because we have to turn down most people now. Because most of them don’t fit into our little niche we only helped this specific type of person.Kim Doyal 11:17No, I think that’s brilliant. I didn’t think that you meant, you know, like working for free at the same time, like ongoing. I’m always amazed, I don’t know what it is about this space. Or if it’s, you know, online, that people just think I’m going to pay someone to put up a website and where’s, you know, if you build it, they will come kind of mentality. And it’s, it’s, there is so much value in doing that deep dive with people and having those conversations, they will literally tell you, it’s your point, this is my pain point. Well, there’s your headline, there’s you know, and so you know it’s a lot easier. I mean, and not in one conversation, but the more you do that, it’s just gold. And I feel like there’s so much more opportunity to just come back to being a human being and having conversations and really getting clear on it. And then from there, it’s a lot easier to grow and to narrow down so. So how did you come into the space of finding that course craters were your market?John Ainsworth 12:14Well, so we were working with SAS businesses, E-commerce, and online course creators and a whole bunch of others. And we did that for I guess about a year where we work with loads of different people, and we sat down and we did an 8020 analysis of it. So my business is called data-driven marketing. So you will not be surprised to learn that I track a lot of things. So we track all of the hours that we spent on stuff. And we tracked all the results that we got for clients. And we tracked how much time it had taken and what the profit was per project. And then we also wrote down for each of them, how much we like it, how much do we like working with them. And what we found was the online fifth graders was one where we like them as people that we felt like this is honestly this is people who are good who are ethical who stand in there doing something originally to help people more than making money. And now they get to make money from it so that we would generally get a group of good people here. Secondly, we found those were the ones we always got the best results for which was brilliant that that lined up so well between the two of them. And then the third one was that we found there were some clients we would work with who we would do a really good job for, we’d build them a great funnel and we get everything running well, and then they’d be booked up, they’d be full. And we’re like, well, that’s no good. Because if you fill somebody up, and then they stop hiring you because you did the job too well. It’s like well, that’s sucks. I mean, honestly, it really sucks. I’ve done it before a number of times, I used to work with gyms. And you can fill up a gym really easily. As you can get a gym to be completely full, all memberships are sold. And then they’re like, great, we’re done now, it’s like, wow, this is horrible. Because like I should, what I should have done is a less good job for you. And I would have made more money from it. And that makes me feel kind of sick. So part of it. And I kind of looked at ecommerce as well. I was like, You know what, technically, if we did an amazing job for E-commerce, they wouldn’t be able to handle it. Like if we really like I was looking at this as long term. I want to be so good at this that it confuses people. If we get to be really really good we double or triple an e-commerce business’s sales, can they actually handle it? Do they have the inventory for it? And so that was a reason why that one was cut out for us. So it was just like, we just had to try a load of stuff, learn what worked, and then narrow down to like, right, this is the bit that works the best online course creators.Kim Doyal 14:42Yeah, well, and you were saying too, that people have to fit certain criteria. So when it comes to your court, so we’ve got the course greater market. So what are some of the criteria that you guys look for when working with a horse trader?John Ainsworth 14:56So 90% of the audience who is responding to anything about online courses are beginners, like as in, they either don’t have a course, or they’ve just made a course. But they don’t have an audience, they haven’t really started making sales yet like they’re very, very early stage. And what we do our whole shtick is that we help people who are already succeeding, to ramp it up. So they have to be making sales of at least a few 1000 a month, like some of our clients are making hundreds of 1000s a month, but at least 3000 a month, they’ve got to have an email list of at least 3000 people. And they have to there that proves that they’ve got courses that people like because it’s really easy to make a course that you like and that you think people should like, but that doesn’t guarantee that people are actually going to buy it. And it’s really hard to build an audience, like it takes a lot of time to build an organic, we’re working with people with organic traffic. So it could be YouTube, or a podcast or search engine traffic or, you know, whatever, Instagram, Facebook, but it has to be organic traffic that they’ve already got. And that’s what we’re helping to convert more of those into sales. So if they’ve got an email list of at least a few 1000 people, it proves they’ve, they’ve had something work there that’s already made progress. And then that’s kind of our requirements. And what that means is, that our job becomes relatively easy for that specific group of people. A funnel is unbelievably valuable. Like if they don’t have this stuff in place, they can double their revenue in three months, we’ve got people who’ve, I think the best we’ve got so far was like five or eight times or something that went from 38,000 to 225,000, in like five months, something like that. So what’s that like? Just under six times, five times? It’s like, it’s ridiculous. It’s just like, this is incredible potential that they’ve spent years building up. And then we get to help them to tap that untapped potential. So that’s kind of our that’s our particular audience where we really work well with people who’ve got, you know, a lot of traffic, like we had someone start with us the other day, who has got 7 million YouTube subscribers, and so she’ll absolutely crush it in this I know. And she doesn’t even like, to her, this is going to be like, you know, she’ll become a multimillionaire off this stuff. And but I mean, we work with anybody who’s got meets those kinds of criteria, but like, that’s the people who’ve really already spent years building the courses, building the traffic, we can do so much for them. That’s the people were really kind of fit best with.Kim Doyal 17:29Wow, okay. So in that sense, let’s kind of back into this as a smidge here. So if somebody wasn’t ready to work with you, what would you suggest they do to get to this point, right, without necessarily giving away like, I mean, I, I’m guessing, right, that you guys are building a funnel on the back end of you’re converting traffic that’s coming to the site, and then you’ve got a funnel on the back end of that. So what are some things that you’d recommend, specifically, for course creators how to how to get the organic traffic...

I’ve mentioned on many episodes that I have a therapist and still talk to her regularly (even though technically she’s “retired”). I’m hoping this episode will be helpful in hearing how this relationship has evolved and why I still talk to my therapist – 18 years later (almost 19).For those of you who have been listening to the show for a while (i.e, the days of “The WordPress Chick” podcast), some of this might be a repeat, but I encourage you to listen anyway.The perspective I have today is completely different than the perspective I had when I first started podcasting.The BackstoryWhy I started therapyI started therapy in 2003, a couple of months after I lost my husband in a car accident (he was 32, our kids were 6 & 2). Prior to this, I didn’t think I was someone who “needed therapy” (now I think everyone does 😉 – if you’re lucky enough to find the right therapist).I initially went to therapy for grief counseling and more or less considered that to be why I was going for the first couple of years.Then my therapist told me she was moving out of the area and closing her practice, but me being me, asked if I could stay in touch.I’d email now and then and then asked if we could do some phone sessions. Fast forward a few more years and I told her I wanted to see her in person (she had moved 3 hours north of me). Fortunately, she said sure and since I was making the trek we could keep the sessions open-ended (in terms of time). Most of these sessions were 3 hours long.I looked at these days as a gift to myself and most people knew not to try and get in touch with me. There was something soothing about the solitude and time in the car before and after my session.In between seeing her in person, I’d have phone sessions but it was more of an ‘as-needed’ basis. I’d have an in-person session usually every two months (unless I was going through something).Fast- forward to 2020Right after I moved to Boise the pandemic struck and everyone went into lockdown. I was stuck in Boise, she was stuck in Costa Rica (and yes, her love of Costa Rica is what put it on my radar).A few months into the pandemic I was struck with inspiration and asked her if we could do weekly calls because I “wanted to raise my vibration.”I had no idea what that looked like or meant, but she was game (we have similar spiritual beliefs so I knew she’d get it).Now two years later, unless something comes up, I’m still doing weekly calls with her (or seeing her in person when she’s in Costa Rica).Sharing this in my businessWhen I started my business in 2008 I had a completely different vision for what it was going to be than what it turned into (ignorance truly was bliss).I first started sharing it on my podcast.My intention when I started podcasting was simply to have more fun in my business.At the time I was still doing WP websites, had an outsourcing company, and was just starting to coach clients (with similar businesses).Because I wasn’t stuck on how things had to be I let it grow and evolve (I’ve done this with every iteration of my business).I started podcasting in 2013 and structured the show on two things: what I wanted to do and the types of shows I enjoyed listening to. I needed to get out from “behind the computer” at the time and I’ve always been a huge fan of audio content.I set the show up so I would do a solo show one week and an interview the next (this varies nowadays). When I did the solo shows I started sharing little snippets here and there of things I had talked to my therapist about or a nugget of wisdom from her.Let me be super clear: even though I did this, I was plenty nervous about what people would think when I mentioned my therapist. That being said, the desire to share was stronger than my fear of judgment from anyone else.The more honest I was about my own experiences the stronger the connection to my audience.I try not to share when I’m in the middle of whatever I’m going through for two reasons:1. It’s a higher level of commitment and love for myself to keep that space sacred2. There’s more value for you when I’m on the other side of things and can be more objectiveOver the last 18 years my therapist has guided me through:Losing my husbandRealizing I was playing the role of the victim (ouch!)Navigating raising my kids on my ownFinancial challengesStarting & running my businessChallenges with my sonLosing my Mom (all the work up to this point is how I was able to handle this loss)Moving out of CaliforniaMoving to Costa RicaLeveling up my businessThose are simply the “issues” (for lack of a better word).The intangible things that I’ve worked through (and still work through)are:feelings of not being enoughself-judgmentwhere resistance shows up in my lifecomplete and total self-responsibilityhow to live my life from a spiritual place/a place of loveallowing myself to want what I wanthow to “go all-in”learning that I don’t need to “fix” myselfhow to feel my feelings without telling stories about anythingObviously, I go into much more detail in the podcast (be sure to listen).All of these pieces work cohesively together, so there isn’t really a hierarchy to the impact it’s had (and has) on my life, but if I were to choose ONE thing that has supported the growth and the ability to navigate everything else?Learning to take complete and total responsibility for everything in my life.After I got over myself and let this really sink in I realized that THIS… THIS is the key to the freedom I desire.Obviously, there are things in life that we can’t control. However, we can always, always, always choose how we respond.Here’s the thing: complete and total self-responsibility always means CHOICE. I’ve learned that even if I don’t want to do something, and I make a conscious decision NOT to do it, it’s hard to berate myself or make judgments.It’s so simple yet we make it so hard.Also, I want to go a little off-script here with one thing:I know how very lucky I am that I found my therapist. Not only because of our relationship (and that she’s continued to work with me) but because of how good she is. I know a lot of people who have tried to find a good therapist have struggled. After a few “tries” it’s easy to give up. I hope that this encourages you to keep going until you find the right therapist for you.How This Impacts My BusinessWhen I started my business I never had any intention of being a service-based business and doing websites.What drew me to start my business was the freedom that I could create. I had already “owned a business” (a physical retail scrapbook store) and felt like I had only created a very low-paying job for myself (there isn’t enough money in the world that would get me to open a brick & mortar retail store today… but that’s another rant for another day).I wanted to create something, not just work in something I created.I think this is a piece of what differentiates an “entrepreneur” from a “business owner.”*Side note*This is simply my own interpretation. Don’t personalize this if you see yourself as one, the other, or both (most entrepreneurs are business owners but I don’t think all business owners are entrepreneurs).For as long as I could remember I’ve felt like there was something else I was supposed to do with my life. I knew that the way there was through entrepreneurship, I simply didn’t know what that looked like (also, if you had told me it would have taken me this long to get to my “sweet spot” I would have thought you had lost your marbles).The first time my therapist told me I was coming from a place of victimhood I was stunned (she’s always been direct with me, I don’t get away with much).Victim is the last word I ever would have used to describe myself, yet it hit me like a ton of bricks. It was at that point that I knew I wanted to move through my life differently.As an entrepreneur, it’s very easy to get caught up in the “blame game.”Here are a few blame game examples:The clients faultA contractors faultAnother creators fault (you bought the course, coaching, mastermind but didn’t know “X”)Software/tools (remember, they’re just tools)You’re not good at “X” therefore you can’t do “Y”You don’t have the moneyYou don’t have the timeThe worst part about the “blame game” is that when we’re in it we have a tendency to attract other people who support that attitude (and worse – who FEED that belief system).Complete and Total Self-ResponsibilityNow let’s reframe the examples above from a place of complete and total self-responsibility:The clients fault becomes: Next time I’ll be more clear/set boundaries/say noA contractors fault becomes: I hired the contractor, what could I have done differently? Let’s fix itAnother creators fault becomes: Did I do everything I said would? Finish the course, implement, pay attention to what I was buying? (Was I ready for this level of commitment?)Software/tools: Did you learn to use it properly before you “needed” it? Watch tutorials? Read the documentation?You’re not good at “X” therefore you can’t do “Y” becomes: I’m going to commit to understanding the fundamentals and PRACTICE what I’m not good at (or hire someone who IS good to)You don’t have the money becomes: Since I don’t have the money I’ll make the time to learn or, what can I do to generate the revenue in order to do “X”You don’t have the time becomes: I need to find a way to buy back my time. Who can I hire or barter with to get this done so I can create more time.The thing with all of these examples is that they require a level of “entrepreneurial adulting.”In other words, patience.Rome wasn’t built in a day.How to Live from a Spiritual Place/ A Place of LoveConfession: I’m a little nervous about this part, but here we go. Time to #JustShowUP.My spirituality is a huge part of my life.I was raised in traditional religion and sometime in the last 15+ years, I realized that it wasn’t in alignment with my values and beliefs. I appreciate all religions from a theological perspective and absolutely trust that each person should do what feels most right to them.My friend, Karen Michaels, often talks about curating your life, just like you can curate your social feeds (hide, block, mute, unfollow, eliminate things that don’t feel good) and I think it’s brilliant.I make very conscious decisions about what I consume (read, watch, listen), who I spend time with, and the energy in my space (I’m putting a lot of money into a place I rent because it FEELS good).Living from a spiritual place and a place of love (to yourself and others) requires practice (and when I get off track my therapist helps me get back to that place).I want to FEEL GOOD. As often as I possibly can.We are living through some crazy ass times, my friends.Like everything else in the world, the digital marketing space is going through some massive changes. The bullshit and sleazy marketing of the early days of the internet aren’t working.Big tech is being called out for their own shady practices and creators are tired of being the product.I love understanding the psychology of consumer behavior and why people buy but I don’t think you need to be a dick when you use persuasion in copy and marketing.The allure of the “lifestyle” has shifted to people wanting peace and a business that supports a quality of life, not a quantity of “stuff.”There are tried and true principles of direct response marketing.Use them, but be clear about who you serve, how you help, and your intentions.That alone will make all the difference in the world in how you market.Choosing to live from this place helps me get back on track any time I go into worry, panic, or stress about something. Those have become indicators that I need to take a few deep breaths and refocus my energy (or take a nap, get off the computer, be easy about it).Allowing Myself to Want What I WantHaving spent so many years in the WordPress space did a bit of a number on my head with this one. Initially, the WP space touted community as the driving force (which at one point it was). The general feeling in this space was one of entitlement (everything should be free and you were the devil’s spawn if you wanted to SELL anything).However, most of this is on me. I had too many fears and hangups being in that space (also had a few trolls and a-holes): I wasn’t a programmer, doubted myself, didn’t charge enough, etc.The more I got into content and marketing the more I realized the WP space wasn’t for me.We serve NO ONE by playing small (not charging enough, doubting ourselves, etc). And no one is going to give you permission.Want what you want and DO NOT apologize for it.Here’s the thing…I don’t care if you want to live in a shack in the hills or a mega-mansion in Beverly Hills. Be a decent human being, O.K.?If you think you’re being altruistic by living by your own values while judging someone for their values you’re not doing anyone any favors.Wrapping it UpThis feels like it’s been a little all over the place so I’m going to try to wrap this up.As long as my therapist is up for it I’m going to continue working with her. I know her well enough now to know that she’ll let me know if that time comes and that she wouldn’t do this if it didn’t work for her.I’m a big believer in coaches, mentors, and obviously, therapists.Finding someone who supports who you are, where you want to go, and helps guide you there is priceless.Learning to live my own truth and stay in alignment is the best thing I can do for my business.And it doesn’t hurt that she’s truly one of my favorite people on the planet.As Brene’ Brown always says, “we’re hard-wired for connection.”And I’m forever grateful for this connection.

Kim Doyal 0:00 Before we get into today's episode, I have a quick message for my sponsor cloudways. cloudways is a managed cloud hosting platform that simplifies your web hosting experience. The platform allows businesses to focus on their growth and have complete peace of mind with 24/7 support and flexibility to scale. Can we just say support is hugely important when it comes to hosting and thanks to cloudways they are offering an exclusive discount for the Kim Doyal show listeners. Visit cloudways calm and use a promo code Chem 20 to get 20% off for two months on the hosting plan of your choice. Alright guys, let's get into today's episode.Welcome to F the hustle. I'm your host, Kim Doyal. You want a life that is meaningful and exciting. In this podcast, we're going to talk about launching and growing an online business that fits your lifestyle. After the hustle is all about doing good work, building real relationships, and most importantly, creating a business that supports how you want to live your life. You don't have to sacrifice the quality of your life today to create something that sets your soul on fire. And yes, that includes making a lot of money. So we'll be talking about selling, charging what you're worth, and how earning more means helping more people. My goal is to help you find freedom and create a business on your terms.Hey, what up what up? Welcome to another episode of EFF the hustle with Kim Doyal because this is now the third iteration ofKyle has been on with me with the WordPress tech podcast Kim Doyal show. And I think I'm in my sweet spot at least for a few more years with FSL with Kim Doyal. So that being said, my guest is my good friend, Kyle Vandusen. Kyle, thanks so much for being here today. I'm super excited to be here. And I'm just waiting for your next iteration so I can come back again.Well, you'll I'm sure you'll come back before there is another iteration. At that point. I'm like, Girl, I got like for myself talking to myself girl stick with like, no more rebranding, let's just, we're dialed and we're placing events in the background.place bets on the the change of the name, or what course platform is gonna jump on next.Anyway, um, alright, so let me I'm gonna kind of just do a little backstory with. I'm not I'm gonna link to previous episodes with Kyle, you guys can listen to who he is. And what he does, I'll let him do a quick little bio, we've gotten much deeper into his business in previous episodes. But the reason I reached out to Kyle is because he responded to an email about time lotteries. And we're going to talk about that in a minute. So this is going to be much more of a free flow conversation. We're going to talk about thought management mindset, running your business in a way that works for you. And we're gonna just see where it goes. So for those who have not listened to Yo, Kyle, or have had the good fortune of our previous conversations, give a little background. Kyle Van Deusen 2:55 Yeah, my name is Kyle Van Deusen. As you can probably hear from my accent, I am from Texas. So forgive me for that. But I own a small agency here in Texas that I've had since 2017. About a year after I started that I started an online community called the admin bar for web developers, freelancers, agency owners, and that has grown tremendously over the over time, we're at about 5000 members now. And at this point, my business that's taken over to kind of take up most of my time at this point. So it was before the agency was full time in the community was part time. And now it's the community is full time in the agencies getting a little bit more part time. But yeah, as long as as long as it has to do with web, I'm usually in the middle of it.Kim Doyal 3:37 Perfect. And he does have Kyle is a believer in email and newsletters as well. He's got the Friday chaser, which is a great newsletter. And I will link to that you guys can opt into that. And it's really based on the community. So if that is your sweet spot, make sure to jump into the community on Facebook, which I will link to as well. So let's just jump into this and this is gonna be I feel like we're doing like our own little Dr. Phil Oprah session here or something like who knows. But so the email that I was referring to you guys is I have this thing I call the time lottery and that is that every single time and appointments cancelled. I feel like I have won the time lottery. And the funny thing is, I love everybody I talk to I really do I don't have I don't have calls or interviews. I just I don't have people in my life. I've worked very hard to get to this point. When my therapists say she's like you've done a good job weeding your garden, and I have but yet, even though I like these people, I like the topics that calls it feels like a time lottery every time something even social stuff you guys like and I always have a great time when I go but when social things get canceled. I'm like and let me just remind you, my life is me. And my dogs at this stage right like I've raised my kids I'm on my own. There's no lot of demand for my time I live in another country. None of my family's like, Hey, can you do this for me? So, anyways, I would love to hear Kyle, why that resonated with you, you email me back, but like, what about that spoke to you?Kyle Van Deusen 5:13 Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, you know, we have so we put so much on our plate, and then we have constant demands on our time, right. So we have social media, sending us notifications, we have emails coming in, there's like, nonstop endless, sometimes feels like a firehose shooting at us of like demands on our time. So, you know, I'll look at my days and go, Okay, well, I got this meeting this meeting, I need to get these things done and those things down, and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna do really well to even come close to getting all this accomplished. So it's, if one of those things falls off, it's like, such relief that hey, now I can, you know, have a moment to breathe or like, maybe have lunch today. That would be cool. Because there's, there's some days I forget to do that, you know. So even though like you said, it's, I enjoy all the commitments, I wouldn't put myself into commitments I didn't enjoy at this point, I think that's a luxury you and I both share, it's like, thankfully, we've gotten to a place in our business where we don't have to do all the things we wish we weren't doing. But even still, then it's really nice sometimes to just be able to take a second and breathe and go, Okay, well, all those things I had to do, I thought I had to do today, I can actually catch my breath for a moment. Now I usually end up just filling that with more stuff. I don't think it I don't think I ever just sit back and put my feet up or anything when that happens. But it does feel like you know, a big relief. I'm Imagine if it happened every day, it wouldn't feel that way. But every now and then it's it's like Christmas morning.Kim Doyal 6:38 It is. And so it's kind of a testament to the state of the world we live in, right. And I remember when I was pre starting my business, and I was working full time raising my kids by myself, literally, it'd be like, you know, up to an alarm between five and six, get myself ready to get the kids ready, get them dropped off at school and daycare, go to work for the whole day, pick them up, then if there wasn't a sports activity, it was like, Okay, let's go to Costco. You guys want pizza and yogurt for dinner? Sweet. Let's go to Costco, we got to get that done tonight. Right? And then I'd go home and I put them to bed and I'm like, I'm gonna shampoo the carpets. It's like I arrived on being is absolutely productive, productive as I could. And the funny because I got a lot of acknowledgment for that people were like, how do you do that? And I'm like, it was kind of innate, right in my nature. And my therapist told me this before, like, especially specifically with women, men are much more wired externally, women are internally and she said, you know, you start hitting midlife. And women's natural pace is medium to slow. And it's a gift. Like I friggin love that I can nap that I can't, I don't set alarms, all of those things. And it's an interesting transition. Also, when your business starts getting to that place where you're like, I don't have to take this call, I don't have to take this client, I can say no to this, and you approach it a lot differently. And you know, and so I think there's one I almost think it's like a, I would say a newbie tax, but when you're new, you don't know what you don't know. Right? And you there's there's fear involved with if I say no to this, or if I say no to that, will the opportunity come up? And so I don't know what are your thoughts on growing as a business owner and having you know, the time lottery means so much?Kyle Van Deusen 8:21 Yeah, and it's funny you brought up like the kids stuff too, I think if you have kids but you can't relate this conversation quite to your business yet. Imagine when it starts to rain and the kids game or their practices called off that relief feeling that's the same one, right? Like yes, I don't have to go take them to that now. Yeah, so it's it's weird in your business because especially as you start like, the last thing you'd want then is for things to not go through the right way or for you to not feel like you're maximizing every minute of the day you know, because you're in that hustle grow you know, all those kinds of things. So it's it's a weird shift when you when you can afford those kinds of things. And I don't mean just afford and like monetary value, I can afford to not do this today but like you just don't have to push your business that hard in order to still be successful. And it wasn't like something I knew was gonna happen and I was trying to strive for go towards but being able to like realize that now at this point it's it is a huge relief even though it just brings different kinds of pressures right? Because you you missed two or three of those things or several of those canceled meetings or whatever happened back to back and then you go back into that mindset of like is this you know, Will I ever go back to being busy again? Is this all over? Has the am I waking up from the dream I was having, you know, so I think that's the roller coaster of being self employed. And that doomsday scenario thing that always has to run through your mindKim Doyal 9:48 it does it what do you think about and again, maybe it's it's it's experience and age that happens with it? But so I don't know what I was reading I'm I read a ridiculous amount. Which is probably why like, I can't get through a book because at night, I put up my iPad. Next thing I wait, I'm wake up in the morning and I'm like, oh, it's propped, I got two pages read, but is, you know, it's it's kind of the more I trust myself and the easier I am and the more whitespace I fill in my life, though, there is just it flows it there's, there's something about, you know, when when you feel like and it's not even the cancellations, but it's about having that whitespace. So like, I was saying to people, so I got omachron or whatever January. And it was such a delicious taste of whitespace because I just cancelled everything for two weeks, I I couldn't write the second week, I was feeling way better. But it was like, by one o'clock, I get really tired. And I'm like, I gotta go to bed. And it was like, I shouldn't care. I don't care, right. So you sort of earn your way there. But I think the other piece is that a lot of what you were doing, as you were growing the admin bar, you were having fun, and you were like, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna have fun. You showed up with integrity, you connected you created value. And it sort of took a life of its own on right. And so I think there's a piece of I think people get into business. I feel like I'm all over the place. I'm probably too caffeinated today. But welcome to life with me, Kyle, conversation, his people get into business, and they expect it to be comfortable, or they expect it to not have to, to not struggle, but it's sort of like they assume something's wrong when things don't work instead of being a part of the process. Right? And so as you grew the admin bar, because you didn't launch that right with, this is my end goal. Right? When you launched it, what was the intention?Kyle Van Deusen 11:45 Yeah, so there, there was basically no monetary incentive I didn't, I didn't ever figure that was like part of my business. That wasn't the idea. So I connected with another web developer named Matt, in a weird situation, but we hit it off. And we had very similar agencies. And we were kind of in the same place in our agency, right? fairly new, growing, getting our feet under us. And what we realized was the kind of the trajectory of our businesses both took off when we started talking more, and it wasn't necessarily, it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily coincidence, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that we had somebody else to bounce ideas off of learn from get advice from hold each other accountable. Like all those things you you need in your business, especially when you're doing it completely solo that you don't have, right. So the idea with launching the community was, well, if this worked for me, and you there's probably 1000s of other people out here in that same situation that don't have somebody, right. So I wonder if we could create a space where we could do this publicly, we could help people connect with each other and all that. So it was never, you know, some kind of business plan going into it right. And it just ended up being so much fun and working so well. And opportunities arose that made it part of my business. That, you know, it got to the point for me, where I was working a full time job in the agency and working a full time job in the admin bar. Right. So it was two full time jobs and something had to give you know, so thankfully, I've, I've gotten to a place where financially, the admin bar can help support me where I can focus more time on it and build some whitespace into it. You know, I think I think that's one of the hard things that when you're starting, you might not realize is you work every second of the day, and you feel every second of the day, because it takes that much to pay for whatever your lifestyle is, right. And as you get better at what you're doing, or figure out what you're doing or put the right systems in place. You can build more profit into your business and live that same lifestyle without working the same amount of time, effort, energy, all those things. So, you know, I think when you're starting out, you might be thinking of like that profit margin part of it being like, Okay, well, then I'll just keep working at the same pace and make twice as much, which is probably what I thought as well, too. But I think there's so much more reward in the fact that okay, I could slow down a little bit and still have what I what I need and enjoy. You know, most of the minutes I live for say, right? Yeah, maybe not every moment that way, but most of themKim Doyal 14:23 Right. And you know what, it's I still to this day, like I could see the beach from here- ask me the last time I went to the beach was probably like two weeks ago, because it was the pool last Saturday. But it was funny because it took the power going out and I was thinking last weekend like I'll get some Pool time in but I have a tendency and I have very few client things that I do anymore. It's sort of on a if it comes and I want to work with the person, I'll do it and now it's writing its copy and email writing and stuff. And so it's funny because like then I go into the weekends because I'm like, Oh no, buddy no I'm working. It's how it feels. Right? Right. So there's like this sort of, but I'm like, this is gonna cause massive burnout. So I really I'm trying to like, even to this day, reframe. I'm not going to work on the weekends, if I do. Kudos, but I'm not working on the weekends, but it took the power going out for me to be like, well, I guess we're going out of the bowl. Right. And by we, I mean, me and the dog, they go hang out, right. So, and I was down there. And then I went to a barbecue that afternoon when I was like, I felt phenomenal. Come Monday, right? Sunday, I took it eat, like I love Sundays, just to do whatever the hell I want. You know, but it's, it's there's still this mindset sometimes. Like for me to go to, it's called price Mart. It's owned by Costco down here. And you literally could probably put price Mart in the back corner of Costco, but I'll take it. And there's a Walmart, it's like an hour away, though. I keep thinking I should go and I should go at night. Like get it done like that way I don't. Because I don't want to take a day. Right to go. Because it's a kind of a trek. Mind you. You don't want to see the roads at night here they can I literally have to drive to like a little river. Right? I should do that. Although it's probably dry at this point in season. But the whole thing is there's it's really still, I think there's a fluidity that you have to allow for yourself to get in the mindset of what do I want my life to look like? And how would I want to feel about this. And like, anytime I work with a coaching client, or like I'm working on a project, here's an example this might help us pivot to the mindset piece is like I was gonna launch community, I was talking about it, I worked the coach for six months, I really dove deep into sort of the success journey of people and and I think my audience tends to be their service providers, they've got a business, they understand the digital marketing space, but they're stuck in the leverage piece, right? And now that I'm doing email marketing, it's like, how do I do that for this? Because I have clients and so but they're really looking for that leverage piece. And so, you know, I think there is I totally lost my train of thought mid sentence. What was I saying? Initially, what were we talking about? For the love of God?Kyle Van Deusen 17:10 You were you were transitioning into the mindset part of this conversation? After talking about taking some time away, and kind of forcing yourself into time off,Kim Doyal 17:21 Kyle's all God, are you sure you're healed from COVID? Like,Kyle Van Deusen 17:25 It's alright, I know the brain fog.Kim Doyal 17:29 Thank you, you know, but so it's just sort of that like, reframing how I think about things and and so like, I have this exercise, I don't know if you've ever read it. I don't know. I think I've done a podcast, but it's the what if exercise. And I literally did two full pages in a journal one time I'm like, what if right? And the whole thing is they have to be what if? Up statements? So what if I could earn more and work less? What if I only had projects that got me excited? What if I could learn email marketing, and automate some sales? What if right, so I as I start doing this, because it's like, well, what if, like, I won't go super sideways with esoteric thoughts here. But January, I was sick, I was out for a couple weeks at a friend here, I still brought in $11,000 that had nothing to do with my efforts at all. And you're one had to write six of that had nothing to do with business or time at all. It was they were like gifts. I'm not kidding you. It's nutty. And then one was a podcast...

Kim Doyal 0:00 Before we get into today's episode, I have a quick message for my sponsor cloudways. cloudways is a managed cloud hosting platform that simplifies your web hosting experience. The platform allows businesses to focus on their growth and have complete peace of mind with 24/7 support and flexibility to scale. Can we just say support is hugely important when it comes to hosting and thanks to cloudways they are offering an exclusive discount for the Kim Doyal show listeners. Visit cloudways calm and use a promo code Chem 20 to get 20% off for two months on the hosting plan of your choice. Alright guys, let's get into today's episode. Welcome to F the hustle. I'm your host Kim Doyal. You want a life that is meaningful and exciting. In this podcast, we're going to talk about launching and growing an online business that fits your lifestyle. After the hustle is all about doing good work, building real relationships, and most importantly, creating a business that supports how you want to live your life. You don't have to sacrifice the quality of your life today to create something that sets your soul on fire. And yes, that includes making a lot of money. So we'll be talking about selling, charging what you're worth, and how earning more means helping more people. My goal is to help you find freedom and create a business on your terms.Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of the hustle with Kim Doyal I am effing the hustle in Costa Rica. As you can see, welcome back. I'm so excited today for a number of reasons. But the to specifically one my guest is a dear friend and coaching client, love her energy, love everything she's doing. And the second reason is we're going to talk about something that I have jumped back into and I'm committed to mastering. So first of all, my guess is Karen Michaels. Karen, thank you so much for being here today.Karen Michaels 1:52 Yeah, that was super fun. You are having the hustle all day long girl.Kim Doyal 1:56 I don't know where that came in. You know, I don't always do that. Like, ah, but today was one of those days. And this is a total non sequitur. I bought the shade for this window over here. And I couldn't figure out how to roll it up. Right. Well, I figured out how to roll it up. So I was like, oh, like again.Karen Michaels 2:13 Oh, you can see the ocean as a current desert dweller. I use the ocean waves as my regular focus sounds.Kim Doyal 2:24 You know, it's funny to to because I've got all the everything shut with AC on. Yes, yes. From that down a little. Alright. So first of all, Karen, before we get into our topic, Mm hmm. Tell the audience who you are what you do. And you know how you run your business?Karen Michaels 2:43 How I read my wells, oh, my gosh,Kim Doyal 2:45 you're all day with that one. But I think really going in the right direction. And so a bit with sort of some off script, which is what I do, which will lead to why we're talking about this specific topic today. SoKaren Michaels 2:58 yeah, sounds fun. Your girl Well, I am. I am a solopreneur here in Las Vegas, Nevada. And I'm also a singer and a pianist who happens to love technology and apple and writing. And I had been dabbling, and it was 100% of side hustle, right? I was dabbling with social media. And I was helping friends or a client would say, oh my gosh, I love what you did. Can you mock that up for me right quick before the gig, you know, hilarious. And I was like, Sure, no problem. And then, of course, when the pandemic struck, and quarantine happened, I'm gonna be honest, my business took off. And thank goodness it did, right. Because there wasn't any live performing or any of that sort of, I'm also a teacher. And so none of that was happening.Kim Doyal 3:50 Let me just clarify your voice teacher.Karen Michaels 3:53 A voice teacher? Uh huh. Yes, yes. And so I would, I was like, wow. And then people came to me. I mean, dare I say in droves? Where, you know, Karen, how do I do this? What kind of camera should I use? How do I do my social media? What should I do what? And it? I am so lucky. In that sense. Just things just blossomed. I had a great time. And now now where I'm at is, you know, I have between five and 12 clients, depending on what's going on, because I do regular, you know, people, I have retainer clients. So those are monthly every month clients, and then I have campaign clients where they'll come to me once or twice a year to help them run something specific like to sell their show or sell tickets or sell their new course or costume or whatever it is. So yeah, so that's where I'm at.Kim Doyal 4:44 Okay, so and I want to say that the retainer clients and the campaign client sees your social media, where you're on social media, it's all social media. Okay, good. Yes. Which it's really fun because I have this love hate relationship with it. You'd have a love love relationship with it. So, I love it though I love it. I love your enthusiasm. And I want to I was just thinking about this I want to pull out sort of a side note for our listeners and viewers is that how many years ago did we connect?Karen Michaels 5:14 I was thinking about that this morning. Okay, because I found you because my, in my music life, I'm chick singer. And that's my moniker. And that's you can find that icon my socials. And then you I was searching for a WordPress thing and WordPress chick popped up. Right. And so I'm like, check, oh my gosh, this, what Insta friends. And so I think is it? I mean, is it 10 years ago?Kim Doyal 5:42 True. It really could be 10 years ago, cuz it was early on. And yeah, when I was doing sites and stuff. So but what's really fun to do we do a website for you. Do we do a chick singer site?Karen Michaels 5:54 Yeah, you like helped me? Because of course, I was like, hey, I really like doing this myself. Yeah. Okay. Can you show me things? So you would do something and then you would say, Hey, I blah, blah, blah, or I use this plugin or so it was like a half and half. You were so gracious to help me do that. So okay, I was trying.Kim Doyal 6:11 I was trying to, because I remember the chick singer. Yeah. But my whole point in bringing this up is then we couldn't we reconnected. You stayed on my list. We reconnected, you jumped into email insiders, the first cohort of that? Yeah. You know, I've been coaching you. And yes, so great. So but I mean, the whole point of that is that I want people to pay attention to the long game. And to understand that, you know, curation and relationships, you have no idea when somebody is either ready for your products and services, or how it can collaborate. And now, based on the work we've been doing, like, we've got this thing that I basically was like, Would you please do this? So?Karen Michaels 6:52 Yes, and it's so amazing, right? Because that, and that's the key. That's why That's why I love social media so much, because it is about connections and relationships and engaging with each other. It's social. And so that's why I always tell all my clients and the clients that I work for, that posting is not your only job. In fact, it's probably may, you know, 50% at the best, because you want to be commenting on other people's stuff, and, you know, liking it and supporting what they do. And then they'll reciprocate and then it just turns into this beautiful boss blossom flower. You know, I love it.Kim Doyal 7:32 Well, and where do you think? And just for the listeners, also that I promised, we are going to get into the other topic. For those of you who are wondering, we're gonna go all in with Twitter. And we'll fill you in in just a second. But where do you think things went sideways with social being? So here's an example this morning. I was listening to a I guess it was an interview. I don't think they have a podcast, but it was Justin Welsh and who it was Nicolas Cole and Dickie Bush friendship 30. Yes, for those who share. Karen did the ship 30 back in the fall. And then I asked her about it. I did it and fell off the ship. I keep saying in January when I got sick. So I'm doing the the march cohort. I just I love these guys. Albert from you're doing, but it was amazing. Like, where was that going with Justin Walsh. Oh, so listening to him talk about how he grew his company. And you guys, I don't know this guy from Adam. But it was a really, really good, great talk his previous life. He was like a CEO or SAS guy or something. Yeah. And you he literally shares no links on Twitter. But he tweets, right, he created this tweet schedule. And he's like, I'm promoting anything. And he has it. He has a LinkedIn course I guess it's like 150 bucks, but a site but he said, I never do an ask on Twitter for a link or a buy or a promotion. And he's scaled his one man show to like 1.5 million a year, or 1.5 million. But either way, the whole point being Yes, his point was in just being there and connecting, engaging and talking. So that's just to support your it's social. Let's go back to being people right.Karen Michaels 9:17 Yes, exactly. I mean, listen, if we're talking about business, I'm obviously not telling you to post your dinner every night. Although that's not a terrible idea to post that you are a human once in a while. Hello. But just you know, if you want to, I just think sometimes people they they have conversations that maybe they wouldn't have in person. They feel they become the keyboard warrior. Oh thing in the negative sense, right? Yeah. Yeah. And and um, I always say to people, you know, if you would not say that in person I recommend I welcome you to think as I love one of those sentences that I've learned to say I invite you to say, Yes, I invite you to not type that sentence and said, I'm just thinking out loud, you know, because come on, there's enough of that kind of silliness. And my and, and like you said, I have such I really do have a huge verb for social media. And I love what it does. I was on MySpace, sir, back in the day with my little daisies, and flowers and butterflies and all that junk that I love. But it's just big. And I met some great people there who are still my friends today. How is that even possible? You know? Yeah,Kim Doyal 10:33 I think we've we're past the point where all my friends are friends that just yet. But oh, God, I lost my train of thought. This is like the third time I've done this today. This is gonna be awesome. Let's pivot a little bit because, okay, I want to hear it's so funny because I, when I decided to put a little bit more time and energy into Twitter, it was sort of I don't say accidental. I mean, I'm almost at 20,000 followers. I bet on there, right, since 2008. And so now I've got like, this sort of resurgence and sometimes I feel like I'm slow with the deploying of stuff. And I'm like, but I trust myself, right and not Yes. Anyways, what I started noticing with Twitter one was friends like you, Jason Resnick in our people, like, Oh, I'm getting a lot of traffic from Twitter. I'm getting this from Twitter and also because Facebook feels like a ghost town and it just doesn't feel good period. Right now, which was a state of flux for it on one dad on the other hand, it's like I like that they're getting kind of called to task for lack of a better word. Yes, exactly.Karen Michaels 11:42 I want to do some housecleaning for sure. Right.Kim Doyal 11:45 Let's hope you know, I think all I actually think all the platforms need to do some housecleaning graters thing, we're tired of being the product. So thatKaren Michaels 11:53 exactly, I just I talked about that in my most my new podcast, I just uploaded my episode for I feel so excited. And I talk about that, you know, because it's, you know, they've allow they we've allowed them to have us be the product for free.Kim Doyal 12:11 And then all the paid traffic is going up because it and so there's there's going to be a reckoning, I have no idea what that looks like or what it means. But yes, anyway, I agree. You know, so, so friends are telling me about this. So where I kind of started, I've always pushed content on Twitter, I think I was probably way more active on it years and years ago. But I would push content. And so I went in and I you know, I use missing letter to schedule like a campaign that goes out for the air. And it's nuts, Karen, we're all looking at like a link clicks. And I think it's clicks through. I should double check. I don't know if it's bio link clicks or just link clicks anyways. Okay, there might be one post, and I'll get 39 from Twitter, and I'll get one from LinkedIn. And one wow is like, it's nuts, the amount of traffic or clicks or whatever. And I'm like, Okay, this is definitely worth paying attention to. And anyways, so I've kind of been going down this deep hole. And it's a whole different way of looking at it. So all that being said, before we get into why I've been begging you to do a Twitter threads class, which by the way, you guys is gonna be free. That's why we're doing this episode. I want as many people deciding, let's, I want to hear your thoughts and feelings, honestly, about Twitter and why you think it's a great channel?Karen Michaels 13:30 Oh, gosh, I mean, I What? Well, what I really love about it, so many things. Oh my gosh, what I love about it is sometimes when we have a constraint, it actually allows for more creativity, it seems, you know, that seems a bit unbalanced to say that, but when you have the constraint of now it's 280 characters, you have to really think aboutKim Doyal 13:57 what was 160 Way back in the day, when it started, right. IKaren Michaels 14:01 was on there then to a well with my other account. Um, and so what I love about that is that it's these quick thoughts that you can put out there in the world. And then what happens then that's where the magic happens. Somebody says something that inspires you or makes you think, or you want to jump upon or whatever it is, and then you say something back to them. And that of course still is in that constraint of the 280 characters. And then they talk to you and then someone else jumps in. And before you know it, there is this beautiful conversation going on all over the place. And oh my gosh, I just think that and what Twitter Twitter has been very, very careful, I think to to keep itself as clean as possible. I mean, it is, you know, it does the best it can with all the craziness and, you know, with with people posting a lot of crazy things, but they're really good at it. watching out for that sort of thing. And not only that, I personally think, because as I think with every platform, you should be curating your platforms so that you don't see things you don't want to see.Kim Doyal 15:11 Go a little bit deeper with that. How would somebody do that on Twitter?Karen Michaels 15:14 On Twitter, there are lists, and there are groups. And then you know, I follow women in marketing. It's a whole list in a group, right, I follow. And then I'm very choosy about the notifications I receive about Twitter, Matt Nevarez, a top one, because he talks a lot about social media. So I'm watching him to make sure I'm on trend with things. Obviously, Dickie bush and Nicolas called those guys from ship 30. I'm really watching what they're doing, because they're always offering fantastic insights, and beautiful ideas about how to write and what to write about and how to create content. SoKim Doyal 15:49 I feel like they have flipped side note non sequitur, that they have flipped the narrative about what writing online means, right? IKaren Michaels 15:59 think so.Kim Doyal 16:00 I think the narrative, I'm all about your website and SEO, but they're like start writing. And here's where you can do it. And you can actually build an audience, while you're getting clear. And while you're creating your category, which sadly,Karen Michaels 16:12 because exactly you get because one thing I really love as a social media person, Twitter has beautiful Analytics, you don't have to go to any third party site, you just put in, you could literally Google Twitter analytics, if you're signed into your account, and poof, it will pop up and tell you what your what all your stats, your top posts, you're the top person who follows you, your most recent follows. What did well, what didn't do as well. It's an incredible analytic backend insight. And, and it's free, it's just part of the platform. And it's very clear. It's not like some of the other platforms where I feel like I'm constantly like, what is this? And, you know, and I look at this stuff all the time. And I always think, gosh, if I'm thinking, if I'm confused, and I look at this stuff, literally daily, what is the regular average person who is just a small business person working to market their stuff, you know, as a solopreneur, what is happening to them? So that's what I really love that about Twitter. I love that about Twitter.Kim Doyal 17:22 The other thing I love about Twitter is it's funny I was you know, it's like our saying, I'm not on Facebook a whole lot. I still don't know, I'm with my Facebook group. It's almost 10,000 people that I'm like, there has to be something here. So do we rise Anyway, moving on. But I'll go into Facebook, and I go to my notifications. And I'm like, no, no, he's like, there's so much. You know, nothing's on on my phone. But I mean, I'm just sitting here going, this person that I don't ever engage with is going live, I don't care. Like it's, it's sort of irrelevant, weird. Anybody that's in my, my realm right now, like getting a notification like this is, this is dumb. And maybe it's partly because so many people are not on the platform, that the notifications are going in that direction. But sure, either where,Karen Michaels 18:15 but I do I just think that that's one of the biggest responsibilities we all have, I think is take responsibility for what makes you feel good, what uplifts you what teaches you, you know, those are that's on you, if I may be so bold to say that because, you know, and especially on Twitter, you know, all it takes is one or two tweets, you kind of know where someone's going. And it's so great, you just head on over to their profile, you can scroll through, you can see instantly who they're retweeting and what they're posting, and instantly know what kind of person they are.Kim Doyal 18:49 So it's so can we talk a little bit about the content then? Because, yes, the crazy thing, Karen, I am not blocking words, right. I like to write like to create, but I feel like I get into this judgment mode about what to tweet or how to do it. And it's it's so bizarre. I don't there, there's a little bit of a block, which is also a big drive. I wanted to do ship 30. So can you give some suggestions or how to approach like, using your voice on Twitter in shorter characters that's engaging and hear my heart really quick? I when I was listening to that, the thing was just almost this morning, so many people will come at this from the...

Kim Doyal 0:01 Before we get into today's episode, I have a quick message for my sponsor cloudways. cloudways is a managed cloud hosting platform that simplifies your web hosting experience. The platform allows businesses to focus on their growth and have complete peace of mind 24/7 support and flexibility to scale. Can we just say support is hugely important when it comes to hosting. And thanks to pod boys who are offering an exclusive discount for the Kim Doyal show listeners, visit cloudways.com and use a promo code Chem 20 to get 20% off for two months on the hosting plan of your choice. Alright guys, let's get into today's episode. Welcome to F the hustle. I'm your host, Kim Doyal. You want a life that is meaningful and exciting. In this podcast, we're going to talk about launching and growing an online business that fits your lifestyle. After the hustle is all about doing good work, building real relationships, and most importantly, creating a business that supports how you want to live your life. You don't have to sacrifice the quality of your life today to create something that sets your soul on fire. And yes, that includes making a lot of money. So we'll be talking about selling, charging what you're worth, and how earning more means helping more people. My goal is to help you find freedom and create a business on your terms. Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of the podcast. I am your host, Kim Doyal. And I'm really excited today because not only is our guest amazing, but we're going to talk about something that I have gotten really obsessed with in the last couple of years. And that is newsletters. But first, my guest today is Leslie sim, the founder of newsletter glue. Leslie, thanks so much for joining me today.Unknown Speaker 1:45 Thanks so much for having me, Kim. Super happy to be here.Kim Doyal 1:48 And we'll just let everybody know, this is fun. You are recording from you're in Singapore.Unknown Speaker 1:54 That's right.Kim Doyal 1:55 Okay, so what time is it for you?Unknown Speaker 1:58 Is 9:34pmKim Doyal 2:02 Yeah, and it's 7:34pm. This is why I love what we do, Leslie, it's like we get to connect with people all over the world. It's just, I don't know, it makes the world seem smaller and bigger kind of at the same time.Unknown Speaker 2:13 Yeah, totally. I feel like I actually benefited from the pandemic, because now nobody's going out and meeting people. And they have to meet people like me online. So that's yeah, that's been like one cool and unexpected side effect. nice side effect of the pandemic.Kim Doyal 2:31 It is, it's nice to see those benefits. And I mean, it just, I think it forced a lot of growth and opportunity online in general. So I think it's fantastic. Okay, so, enough about that. But I would love to know, you know, we did a live stream talking about newsletter glue, and I'll let you explain what that is. But I don't know much about your backstory, if you wouldn't mind sharing with listeners, kind of, you know, how you got into all this what you're doing prior to creating and launching newsletter glue?Unknown Speaker 3:01 Yeah, how far would you like me to go back?Kim Doyal 3:06 Maybe with your entrepreneurial journey, or you know, I mean, whatever you feel like sharing honestly.Unknown Speaker 3:12 Um, so my very first job, or my very first real job after after university was in the government in the airport. And it turns out that I was very bad at that because I not like Are you familiar with the term iron rice ball? No, explains that there might be a Singaporean or Southeast Asian, but it's just kind of like a stable steady job that you know, like working in the government is known for like the work in the government, you have a stable steady job, and that's an iron rice ball. It's not going to go away. Ah, okay. Yeah, and so I didn't know it at the time. But I knew after working there for a couple of years that you know, stable, steady type jobs was super not my thing. And I just kind of got bored and wanted to do other things. And so I left the airport in the aviation industry and went into advertising, which was as far away as an iron rifle asKim Doyal 4:24 well, and not to mention talk about talking about a pivot. Do you mind me asking? What did you study in university?Unknown Speaker 4:30 I study commerce, which is like kind of like a general business degree. So we did like marketing, accounting, finance, whole bunch of stuff. Okay. So yeah, just kind of a general degree, I guess. And then so yeah, I moved into advertising. I like that so much more. I kind of think about my time or like, I think like a good description of my time there is being able to skate skateboard in the hallways. I love it. Yeah, like advertising is super fun. I think it's like my dream job that even now like, if I had to get a full time job advertising would be one of the places that I look. I just like really liked the work. Yeah, it's fun and the people as well. Yeah. Wait, have you? Do you have? Do you have any experience in advertising?Kim Doyal 5:21 No, no other than just 14 years. And I mean, right. Similar in terms. I mean, I've run ads, but I'm fascinated by copy and the fact that messages can there's this whole psychological bent behind it. And so and then it's how do you get creative and get it to work? I mean, it's, it's kind of it's like a science in and of itself, almost.Unknown Speaker 5:43 Yeah. Yeah, that's like, that's always been kind of my, like, I've been super interested in that as well. And so yeah, advertising was really interesting. And I was an account executive there. So like, not a creative. And it was, like, the part that I always liked was like, being able to pull the strings. So like, I'm managing the client, but I'm also managing, you know, internally with the copywriters and the designers and trying to get, you know, get a campaign out the door. And that was super cool, because I always kind of wanted to run my own business. And I didn't know it at the time when I went into advertising. But once I started doing the job, I realized, like, Oh, this is, you know, this is really close to entrepreneurship, because it teaches you how to get things done. Every month, do you have a campaign that has to go out? You know, kind of paid for it? You know, there's like a newspaper spot waiting for your ad to go in there. You have to do it. And it's like, how do you, you know, hurt the kittens and the door? Yeah. And yeah, so it was super fun. It was a lot of hard work a lot of pressure, like, yeah, a lot of pressure, a lot of like, for em nights, a lot of figuring things out as you go, because you know, sometimes creatives will come up with crazy ideas that is on you to kind of figure out how to make happen. So yeah, I just really liked that. But the thing that I didn't like so much was, so I joined advertising at a time where digital stuff was becoming a thing. In I think 2012, back when we were still buying Yahoo ads. And so so so like, obviously, things have changed a lot since then. And it was it was like kind of becoming obvious that traditional agencies ad agencies didn't really know that much about the internet and like how things worked. And you know, even things like sales funnels and marketing funnels, which everyone knows now. Traditional agencies back then didn't know anything about and it was kind of starting to show it was it was obvious that, you know, clients were coming to agencies to ask about, can we run a digital campaign? And agencies will obviously say yes, but then they scramble after that and try to figure things out. And I, I wanted to go to where no, people actually knew what they're talking about. The digital internet world. So I left the agency life. And instead of I tried, so I tried to get a job in the States, actually. Sorry. So like, this is the long story that you neverKim Doyal 8:44 asked. Well, I think the journey is fascinating. And it's I think it's really helpful for listeners, in my opinion to hear, it's just not a straight line for any of us to get to where we are.Unknown Speaker 8:58 Exactly. Yeah, I like kind of like telling the story because I don't often get a tablet. And it's not the story that you'd expect. I think it's about to take a sharp turn. Yeah. So I like tried to get a digital agency job in the States because I felt that's where a lot of the cutting edge digital marketing stuff was happening. And I just couldn't. And so what I ended up doing was traveling the states. And as my three month visa was expiring, I felt okay, I'm not ready to go home yet. So I decided to go to Honduras to freediveKim Doyal 9:39 oh my gosh, yeah.Unknown Speaker 9:42 And it's so ridiculous when I think about it now but I actually bought the ticket. Like for for two days out. And it was only the day before where I asked myself like, do I actually need a visa for Honduras? Like, what language do they speak there? I just kind of bought the ticket and yeah, like didn't think about any of that. So thankfully, I didn't need a visa, I would have been in trouble.Kim Doyal 10:08 Can I ask were you traveling with anybody? Are you by yourself? I was by myself. Wow. It's amazing. Go ahead.Unknown Speaker 10:15 Yeah. So I went to her daughter's went to the freediving school and ended up really, really liking it. And I ended up staying there for eight months and becoming a free diving instructor and teaching people free diving. And that was my life for almost a year. And it was great. Yeah, I'm like telling you this also, because, you know, I know that you're in Costa Rica right now. And that's super close to Honduras. So like, I feel like you know what I'm talking about?Kim Doyal 10:45 Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's to get that experience of living in another culture that lives vastly different than what you've done. It's sort of humbling and awe inspiring at the same time.Unknown Speaker 10:58 Yes. Yeah. Super agree. It really like broadens your perspective, I think and makes you realize how much you can't assume. Because like, people are just so different over the world.Kim Doyal 11:14 Yeah, yeah. So I go ahead, sorry.Unknown Speaker 11:19 I did the freediving thing. And a year, a year later, I came home thinking that I was going to continue being a freediving instructor and do that across Southeast Asia and like, had this whole thing. And then my mom comes and she has this serious talk with me about my future. And she says, Oh, yeah, exactly. She was legitimately concerned that I was gonna turn into some kind of dive bomb or something, we just, you know exactly what I was becoming. So fair enough. Um, yeah. And so she had that talk. And then she successfully guilt trip me into staying at home in Singapore and trying to take a normal job. So I tried that very briefly. And it turns out that, I guess, like my sabbatical in Honduras had, I think I changed me fundamentally as a person, and I just like, couldn't do a regular job anymore. And so I quit soon after and tried to do my own thing. And it's and then there's a quick detour into craft beer, which I won't go into into too much detail about because like, this has already gone on for way longer thanKim Doyal 12:34 but this is so fun. I do you got a quick okay, so hold on, hold on, hold on. So quick detour and craft beer in terms of like you got into making it or you went to work for a craft brewery.Unknown Speaker 12:46 Oh, so I was a partner in a craft beer brewery. It was just like the two of us. So I was meant to do like the marketing side of things. And he was doing the brewing. And we were both kind of doing sales, like, literally door to door going knocking on restaurants and asking if they wanted to buy a beer. Wow. Yeah. So and we were like, one of my favorite gifts that we made was a mandarin ale. Mandarin Orange ale.Kim Doyal 13:15 Oh my god, I love orange in in like wheat beers. It's so good.Unknown Speaker 13:20 Yeah. And I remember we use, like, I took the resistors from my kitchen, and we were just like, sitting there testing oranges. And I think like that made that year, at least, like, to me feel tastes much nicer. Because, you know, we like to sit there for two hours. Just testing oranges. Yeah, but it that didn't work out. As it turns out, there's a lot more to, you know, making a craft beer business successful than just a brewery and two people. Yeah. So didn't work out. And but at the time, because we were just the two of us i i had to build a website had to like figure out, how do we, you know, do the online sales have a presence and all that stuff. And so, that kind of reignited my interest in digital marketing and websites, which if you recall, was the reason why I went to the States in the first place. And I was like, Okay, so like, because of this, we've like, built the website. I've learned all this stuff that how to use WordPress for the first time and decided, okay, maybe I can double down on this. And I started my digital marketing agency from there.Kim Doyal 14:45 Holy moly, that is such a great story, Leslie, truly, and thank you for sharing it because it is I you know, it's crazy because when you've been doing this for a while, and you've I mean, so you really started paying attention to the digital marketing space at the ad agency. You said, which is what, like 2012 or so? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so for almost 2022, so 10 years later, and it's still sort of like the Wild West. And I think there's a market sophistication that's happened. But there's still people starting their businesses every day online. And to hear that, it's just not a straight path. And so what brings you here? Is, I don't know, it also gives you the strength and the backbone to keep going when you start here, because none of this is easy, either.Unknown Speaker 15:32 Yeah, exactly. Alright, soKim Doyal 15:35 you started a digital marketing agency? I'm sorry. Um, and did you? So you went about doing advertising for people? You were doing websites? What was what did you guys offer under the agency?Unknown Speaker 15:47 Yeah, just kind of, it was just me and team of freelancers. So we're kind of doing anything people wanted, basically. So like, we built websites, we did some content marketing, I did a bunch of videos as well. Yeah, just kind of, you know, everything that whatever we could find whatever what we could find, I guess. And then it got to 2019. And I was kind of getting burnt out. We had a really successful year, but it was, you know, I think I worked probably seven days a week for 50 out of 52 weeks. Or just, you know, just Yeah, I was just kind of done. And so what I ended up doing was scaling down. So we were kind of at, you know, when you're working seven days a week, it it's that kind of point where you either commit and hire more people, or you let go have a bunch of clients and scale down. And I decided that I would scale down. So I let go a bunch of clients, and looked at building a plugin. Instead, I just, you know, I already tried freediving I tried advertising, I tried to like, you know, the one thing at that point I hadn't tried it was software. And it was something that I was always interested in. And I'm not a developer. So, you know, I never thought that I'd be able to do a software business because I couldn't build anything. Then I realized, you know, I could partner up with someone. So I looked at the indie hackers forum, and looked for someone look, you know, a technical person looking for a business co founder, and I found my co founder admin, he had built a membership plugin, and was looking for someone to help market it. And so that's kind of how we started working together. And I think, you know, part of the story already, the membership plugin didn't work out. But we built a feature inside the membership plugin that would allow you to send blog posts out as new status to subscribers. And I really liked that specific feature. And so even though the membership plugin didn't work out, we decided to pivot and build out a business around that send post to subscribers feature. And that was how new sets of glue was born. And oh, my goodness, oh, sorry.Kim Doyal 18:22 That is I love it. Leslie, what a fantastic story. So you are a certainly tenacious and be you sound fearless. But is it more that there's this sort of drive in you to just keep going and find that thing? I mean, a lot of people would have given up.Unknown Speaker 18:42 So I think like, my answer now, is quite different from the answer I would have given you a decade ago, Manson now is I think, like, my family, I come from, like a pretty good family background, like we have, you know, I feel like secure. And so coming from that, you know, we weren't like, hard up for money or anything like that. And so that given me a lot more opportunity to take risks. I think, I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but like, I know, a bunch of my friends, for example, who growing up, they always felt that they had to get a stable job and, you know, become a lawyer doctor, because they didn't, they had like they had to scrape by when they were children. And so like, those, those friends would find it much harder to take risks and go do silly things like freediving. Whereas, I think like, I had the luxury of doing that. And as I saw, like, you know, my parents they're, you know, they're not like filthy rich or anything but like, just being able to come from a stable background and like, not have to worry too much that just really helped. So can Yeah, I think it's like a huge pot.Kim Doyal 20:06 Sorry. It's just, I think, yeah. Yeah. I think also that it sounds like even though your mom had a sort of up here, if you've heard the phrase like a come to Jesus moment about, yeah, getting a job right that. Okay. But I mean, you know, my parents very traditional jobs too. And it was like, Well, I mean, they were supportive as I was getting started with this, but it was like, maybe, and I was like, Look, I'll walk away from my house before I go back to a job job again, I just knew it wasn't ever. I wasn't supposed to do that. But at the same time, so where you had some financial security, and I think that's huge. And I think that's very honest. And thanks for sharing that because it does make it a lot easier to take some risks. But it also sounds like to a certain extent, your parents, your family, supported your curiosity a little bit as well. I mean, it took you let's say, California to or the United States to Honduras to diving for your mom to finally go. Why don't we have a little chit chat?Unknown Speaker 21:08 Yeah. Yeah, okay, enough. Yeah, I think I think I but I'm also a middle child. So I think I like got get away with a lot of stuff that my siblings wouldn't be able to get away with. Yeah, so I play under the under the radar a lot. And, yeah,Kim Doyal 21:29 that's totally funny. I'm a middle child,...

It's easy to say "Own Your Expertise" to other people, but sometimes it's harder to do that for ourselves.I have a tendency to go to one extreme when I get inspired (or fired up) about something and then the pendulum swings back to the middle and I'm able to move from a more grounded place.I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I'm very clear on what I want this year to look like.This March will be my 14th year in business (I'm beyond grateful that ignorance is bliss). What I'm doing today is not at all what I thought I'd be doing when I started this online journey in 2008.Side note: I remind my kids ALL the time that what I'm doing today didn't even exist when I was their age, so this is my reminder to you too. Don't get attached to what things are supposed to look like.I know I've shared my story a zillion times in terms of what I thought I was going to be doing (I thought I was going to write ebooks and make millions of dollars. #nuffsaid), so even though my business went in a different direction (and pivoted a handful of times), the journey is what has given me the strength to own my skillset.This is what I'm hoping this episode will do for you as well.Step into your own expertise and #JustShowUP - we need new voices and perspectives on things.The "Create vs. Consume" argumentYou hear this all the time in the creator space. Stop consuming and start creating.It's a completely valid point, but sometimes consuming is what helps you get clear on what you want to create. I read a LOT.Probably more than I need to, but guess what? I LIKE reading and learning. It was through my consumption that I found what resonated most for me. You can also see patterns and behaviors that start emerging when you read and learn about specific topics consistentlyThere is absolutely a danger in consuming more than you create, but it truly depends on where you are in your journey and whether or not you're actually "doing the work."Until about 5 years ago I probably consumed a lot of content on anything relative to digital marketing. Whether it was SEO, video marketing, email marketing, funnels, content creation, e-commerce, advertising, copywriting, podcasting, etc.The funny thing is that even though some of those topics aren't interesting to me (SEO & advertising are at the top of that list), I still consumed it because I felt like I had to.I had to have an understanding of ALL the things.This is where the old saying "Jack of all trades and master of none" comes in.But I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. In fact, here's the full saying that is often left out:Think about traditional education (which in many ways is broken, but we'll leave that discussion for another time. Or never 😉). You go to school and study general education for the first 12 - 14 years of your life (personally I think we could do without the two years of lower-division in college these days, but I digress. Again).Once you've built that foundation, you then go on to a focused area of study.If you're lucky with your business, you're able to find that focused area that becomes your specialty early on, but sometimes the price of admission to getting there is general education. The trial and error that comes from trying and testing new things are how we learn.If someone had told me 10 years ago that I would have fallen in love with writing, email marketing, newsletters, and dare I say copywriting (that's really more of a love-hate relationship) I would have thought they had lost their mind.Yet here I am.Going all-in with these topics.This block has encountered an error and cannot be previewed.Before we get deeper into how you can figure out your own area of expertise (and how to own it), I want to address the so-called elephant in the room in terms of claiming your expertise (or not wanting to call yourself an expert).First, let's look at the true definition of the word expert:Because we're living in such an "interesting" time (people who do Google searches think they're experts), I just want to point out one piece of the first definition (noun), which is "or a skill in a particular area."There are certain fields that obviously require extensive training through accredited programs, universities, etc. So for the sake of all of our sanity, let's narrow this down to the digital marketing space.The example I refer to often is Russell Brunson.Love him or hate him, he's absolutely an expert at what he does. He's studied (i.e, consumed), anything he can get his hands on when it comes to marketing. He's built a multi-million dollar business by applying the principles and strategies he's studied.I think it's safe to say he's an expert.That's what we're talking about here. When I think of the opportunities online for people to be an expert on a specific topic or strategy, it's limitless.I have another friend (who has been on the podcast before), Trey Lewellen. Trey has become an expert in e-commerce. He didn't get a degree in it, he was simply determined to build an online business, found his sweet spot, and went all in.I found my sweet spot through consistent action.When I pivoted from 'The WPChick' to my personal brand I started focusing on content marketing. I had been podcasting for about 5 years at that point and had gotten great results from sticking with that. When I started my podcast I did it because I wanted to have more fun.The clarity came through consistently doing the work.As I continued to dig deeper into content marketing I started paying much more attention to email marketing. I had never really looked at it as a type of content, but it is (it's also a marketing channel).I literally studied how other email marketers were doing what they were doing for probably a year before investing in my first email marketing product.Then I jumped in and started writing.I felt like I was on a hamster wheel at the time and I knew I needed to get off it.In order to transition from service work to where I am today, I had to focus on growing my list, communicating effectively with them, and are you ready for this?SELLING to them!More on that later though.All I knew was that what I was doing wasn't working and it was time to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.This block has encountered an error and cannot be previewed.Finding Your ExpertiseWe're going to approach this from a different place.So keep your mind open, O.K.?As esoteric as this may seem to you, I PROMISE you that this is gold if you take the time to do this work.You have to start with defining how you want to feel and what you want your life to look like.I make every decision (or try to), based on how I want to feel. I've done a lot of work on myself in order to live a life outside the norm. I started my business when no one in my "real life" was really even active online (and I was NOT tech-savvy when I started).I simply knew there was something else I was supposed to do with my life and it was not to work for someone else.What you need to remember is that when you're starting out you may think there's something you want to do because you enjoy it, then when you start doing it as a business it sucks the life out of you.I had zero desire to do service work when I started online, yet that's where I ended up, for years.It sucked the life out of me but had I not done it I wouldn't have the clarity and knowledge that I have today. There are two exercises that will help you get massive clarity on how you want to feel.First, is the "ideal everyday day" exercise from Frank Kern.You can Google it, but that's not necessary. Simply take some time to write out what your "ideal everyday day" would look like.The first time I did this I was floored, because I was pretty close to living it (and I can 100% say that I'm living it now). My biggest driving force has always been freedom. Freedom means a lot of different things to different people, but having the freedom and flexibility to be there for my kids when they were growing up, to be able to take time off whenever I wanted to, to not have to set an alarm (well, once the kids could drive themselves to school), to be able to take a nap or float in the pool in the middle of the day... all of this equated to freedom.The second exercise that will get you in the right frame of mind is the "What if" exercise. I've shared this before on the podcast, but basically, you're going to focus on positive what-if statements. Unfortunately, our default tends to be "what if it doesn't work out"... I'm challenging you to focus on "what if it DOES work out?"After you've done these two exercises, it's a lot easier to see patterns as to what your priorities are and how you want to spend your time.Here's a bullet list of my examples. Once you have the bullet list down, you should drill deeper into each one of these. As you do that, ask yourself how you FEEL with each statement.Lots of white space in my weekFewer calls (max 2-4 per week)No calls on Monday or FridayThe majority of my income comes from coaching and courses (both cohort-based courses and self-study)My time is split between creating, coaching, and marketingEnough white space to create income streams that don't rely on me as the brand/name/voiceIn one of my recent #FtheHUSTLE newsletters, I talked about the "time lottery."How every time a call or event is canceled, I feel like I won the time lottery.It was amazing to see how much that resonated with people.When I look at my calendar at the beginning of the week and see I have very few calls? Instant time lottery feeling. It's as if I can accomplish everything.At this stage in the game, I know myself well enough to know that I go into massive resistance whenever I feel like I "have to" do something. Even when I'm the one who scheduled it ( I never said it made sense).I also go through periods of time where I need to pull back and other times I feel like I've got a ridiculous amount of energy and want to talk to anyone and everyone.I've accepted that this is part of my process and I don't overthink it.This block has encountered an error and cannot be previewed.When you're clear on how you want to feel, make a list of the things you truly enjoy doing in your business.The things that make you want to focus on mastery and you can get lose track of time when you're focused.As much as I love engaging with people (sometimes when I read what I write I feel like I sound like a bit of a hermit), I require a lot of time to myself.This is why I prefer writing and podcasting to video.I don't need to be "on" (although I'm pretty "on" when I record my podcast. I don't record if I'm not feeling it).I more or less fell into writing through podcasting.I write my solo show episodes out first, then record (so as much as I go off-script, I do have a written post believe it or not).I found that the process of writing out my thoughts first helped me get clarity as well as become a better writer.Then when I got frustrated with being in client work I decided to dig deeper into the old mantra of "the money is in the list" and see if I could figure out email marketing.It was only through doing that I found this path.Once you're clear on what you love doing, start doing your research and see how other people are doing it.As an example (and if you have recommendations I am ALL ears), the more I dove into email marketing the more I realized there are WAY more men teaching and talking about this than women.Side note: I know there are a LOT of women copywriters who also talk about and teach email marketing, but I haven't found many (there is a handful), that focus solely on email marketing. This isn't a judgment, but in doing my research I felt like there was an opportunity.I subscribed, followed, and read anything and everything I could get my hands on.I've done the same thing with email marketing and newsletters that I did with WordPress and content marketing. I started by sharing my journey, what I was doing, what I was learning, etc.The more I do this, the easier it is to claim my expertise because I'm getting RESULTS.You're the Only One You Need Permission FromHave you ever purchased a product or course in your area of expertise only to think "I already know all this" and better yet, you're already DOING everything?Because my pivot to email marketing (and newsletters) is fairly new (in terms of proudly claiming that's my forte), I'm always paying attention to what's happening in that space.Not from a place of distraction or not doing the work (I've run two pilot programs for Email Insiders and am launching the official program shortly), but from a place of learning and wanting to continually get better.Last fall I purchased a course on email marketing that was about $1500.After digging in I realized there was nothing new and I had everything in place.It was my own swift kick in the pants to say "Enough. It's time."And here's the thing (and this is NOT a dig at the fellas listening or reading this, it's more of a call to the ladies):This is something women seem to struggle with way more than men.I've talked to my therapist about this quite a lot as well as the copious amount of reading I've done on the subject. It comes down to the way we're wired.The whole point of this is that you're not going to feel comfortable claiming things, owning your greatness, or deciding you know enough to help people and make a great living until you DO IT.I was having a conversation with my son last week and he was saying he was a little scared about this next chapter he was in.He was stepping into something completely different.I told him that's how life works.Of course, he's scared... that's how we grow.Think how boring life would be if we didn't get to feel that moment of "a-ha!" or victory when we master something? Little kids are amazing at this.They haven't learned to judge themselves for where they think they should be (until they get into school). You can see the accomplishment in their faces when they've done something on their own for the first time.Go back to that place.The pride you feel for committing to learning something and getting good at it.Knowing you're building on your strengths every day.Get comfortable with the discomfort.Claim your expertise.