The Covert Narcissism Podcast

When you’re in a relationship with a covert narcissist, it can feel like living in Never Never Land—a place where no one grows up, nothing ever gets resolved, and you’re left carrying all the weight. At first, their charm feels like magic. They’re playful, adventurous, fun. But when real life shows up—accountability, conflict, emotional depth—they shut down, lash out, or retreat into blame. In this episode, we explore the Peter Pan World of covert narcissists, those who refuse to grow up and keep their partners stuck in emotional childhood right alongside them. Whether it’s Peter Pan or Paula Pan, and whether you are playing the role of Wendy or William, the result is the same: you’re cast into the role of caretaker, carrying the emotional, practical, and relational weight while your needs are silenced. We’ll unpack: The traits of a covert narcissist who avoids responsibility at all costs.  The emotional toll of being cast as Wendy—or William—in the relationship.  Why truth, repair, and closure vanish into “Never Never Land.”  How to recognize the cycle and start writing a new story outside of their fantasy world.  If you’ve ever felt like you’re living in Never Never Land, an emotional purgatory with someone who refuses to grow up, this episode will help you name it—and remind you that you don’t have to stay there. DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BY RENEE SWANSON, COVERT NARCISSISM PODCAST, AND CNG LIFE COACHING IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE USED FOR DIAGNOSIS PURPOSES AND NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLINICAL CARE. PLEASE CONSULT A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER FOR GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO YOUR CASE. THIS MATERIAL DISCUSSES NARCISSISM IN GENERAL. RENEE SHARES STORIES FROM HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AS WELL AS FROM THOSE SHE HAS TALKED WITH FOR SEVERAL YEARS. HER MATERIAL DOES NOT CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON HAS NARCISSISM AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON AS HAVING NARCISSISM. PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO LINK TO OR REPOST THIS MATERIAL TO SUPPORT AN ALLEGATION OR SUPPORT A CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON IS A NARCISSIST. THAT WOULD BE AN UNAUTHORIZED MISUSE OF THE MATERIAL AND INFORMATION PROVIDED.

“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you. Do you understand the rights I have just read to you? With these rights in mind, do you wish to speak to me?” Now that I have shown how I will treat every word that comes out of your mouth, you better just shut up. I’m better than you at manipulating things, turning things against you, controlling you. This is my territory. This in a marriage! So condescending. So hurtful. It’s no wonder that we quit talking to them. So many victims shut down and go grey rock and don’t even understand why. They don’t even know what that is, but do it out of survival. So what should those rights be? What do they look like in a healthy relationship? I re-wrote them: "You have the right to be you. Anything you say can and will be heard and valued. You have the right to speak your mind. If you do not know how to speak your mind, I will wait patiently and eagerly to hear your thoughts. Do you understand the rights I have just read to you? With these rights in mind, are you open to speaking with me?" I am Renee Swanson, and I help people recover from covert narcissistic abuse. •Are you tired of feeling isolated and alone? •Are you searching for people who get it? •Are you confused, reactive and unsure what to do? •Are you running in circles in your mind? •Are you worried for your kids and the effect this is having on them? •Do you want to know how not to raise another narcissist in this world? I can help you! I offer both group and individual coaching, which you can find at www.covertnarcissism.com Renee Swanson, Certified Coach and Advocate for Victims of Covert Narcissistic Abuse http://www.covertnarcissism.com https://www.tiktok.com/@cngreneeswanson https://www.youtube.com/@cngreneeswanson https://www.facebook.com/renee.covertnarcissism

You don’t have to know the terminology to know when something feels wrong.Long before I knew the term gaslighting, I knew the dizzying confusion of hearing “I never said that” about something I remembered clearly. Before I’d ever heard of circular conversations, I knew the frustration of talking in circles until I was the one apologizing. Before I could name moving goalposts, I knew the exhaustion of never being able to “get it right.” And before I understood walking on eggshells, I knew the tension of monitoring every word, every step, every breath. In this episode, I’m taking you through these tactics—not as cold definitions, but as lived experiences. You’ll hear personal stories, examples, and the emotional reality behind the phrases. And you’ll learn why this podcast isn’t about labeling someone as a covert narcissist—it’s about giving you the language to talk about what you’ve lived through and to reclaim your truth. Because you may not have had the words back then… but you knew the feeling. And now, you can name it. DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BY RENEE SWANSON, COVERT NARCISSISM PODCAST, AND CNG LIFE COACHING IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE USED FOR DIAGNOSIS PURPOSES AND NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLINICAL CARE. PLEASE CONSULT A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER FOR GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO YOUR CASE. THIS MATERIAL DISCUSSES NARCISSISM IN GENERAL. RENEE SHARES STORIES FROM HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AS WELL AS FROM THOSE SHE HAS TALKED WITH FOR SEVERAL YEARS. HER MATERIAL DOES NOT CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON HAS NARCISSISM AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON AS HAVING NARCISSISM. PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO LINK TO OR REPOST THIS MATERIAL TO SUPPORT AN ALLEGATION OR SUPPORT A CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON IS A NARCISSIST. THAT WOULD BE AN UNAUTHORIZED MISUSE OF THE MATERIAL AND INFORMATION PROVIDED.

They’ve stopped yelling. They’re going to therapy. They’re more “attentive.” So why does it still feel like nothing’s changed? In this final episode of our 4-part series with Dr. Anthony Mazzella, we dive into one of the most misunderstood dynamics in narcissistic relationships: the collapse of guilt into shame—and how it sabotages real change. We explore: Why narcissistically inclined individuals can’t tolerate guilt How shame masquerades as self-awareness but blocks true repair The difference between behavior modification and emotional transformation Why surface-level change without integration eventually falls apart If you've ever felt confused by a partner who seems to be "trying"—but still leaves you feeling alone, invalidated, or unsafe—this episode will help you make sense of what’s really happening. This is not just a conversation about narcissism. It’s a conversation about what real healing looks like—and what happens when we mistake shame for growth. DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BY RENEE SWANSON, COVERT NARCISSISM PODCAST, AND CNG LIFE COACHING IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE USED FOR DIAGNOSIS PURPOSES AND NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLINICAL CARE. PLEASE CONSULT A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER FOR GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO YOUR CASE. THIS MATERIAL DISCUSSES NARCISSISM IN GENERAL. RENEE SHARES STORIES FROM HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AS WELL AS FROM THOSE SHE HAS TALKED WITH FOR SEVERAL YEARS. HER MATERIAL DOES NOT CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON HAS NARCISSISM AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON AS HAVING NARCISSISM. PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO LINK TO OR REPOST THIS MATERIAL TO SUPPORT AN ALLEGATION OR SUPPORT A CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON IS A NARCISSIST. THAT WOULD BE AN UNAUTHORIZED MISUSE OF THE MATERIAL AND INFORMATION PROVIDED.

When the Child You Protected Believes the NarcissistIt’s a betrayal that cuts deeper than most people can understand—when your adult child, the one you protected for years, turns on you and takes the side of the covert narcissist. If you’re walking through this devastating experience, you are not alone. I’m opening a small, supportive Zoom coaching group just for parents facing this heartbreak. This group is a safe place to process the grief, confusion, and isolation of being cast as the villain in a story you spent your life protecting them from. We’ll meet weekly to work through the pain, understand why this happens, and rebuild your peace, identity, and strength—together. This is your space to feel seen, supported, and empowered.Spots are limited. Learn more and reserve your place at www.covertnarcissism.com DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BY RENEE SWANSON, COVERT NARCISSISM PODCAST, AND CNG LIFE COACHING IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE USED FOR DIAGNOSIS PURPOSES AND NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLINICAL CARE. PLEASE CONSULT A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER FOR GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO YOUR CASE. THIS MATERIAL DISCUSSES NARCISSISM IN GENERAL. RENEE SHARES STORIES FROM HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AS WELL AS FROM THOSE SHE HAS TALKED WITH FOR SEVERAL YEARS. HER MATERIAL DOES NOT CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON HAS NARCISSISM AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON AS HAVING NARCISSISM. PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO LINK TO OR REPOST THIS MATERIAL TO SUPPORT AN ALLEGATION OR SUPPORT A CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON IS A NARCISSIST. THAT WOULD BE AN UNAUTHORIZED MISUSE OF THE MATERIAL AND INFORMATION PROVIDED.

What if that apology wasn’t about you at all?What if the moment that looked like remorse was really a carefully constructed move to restore a fractured image? In this powerful continuation of our series with Dr. Anthony Mazzella from The Narcissism Decoder podcast, we dive beneath the surface of “I’m sorry” to explore what’s really going on: the tangled relationship between guilt, shame, narcissism, and the illusion of empathy. We break down a real-life example of a man spiraling in frustration, seemingly finding redemption through kindness — but is it guilt, or is it shame-fueled self-preservation? This episode is essential for anyone trying to make sense of the mixed signals in narcissistic relationships, especially for those raising or supporting adult children who are still struggling with internalized shame from growing up in a narcissistic home. We explore: The difference between authentic guilt and toxic shame How narcissistic defenses hijack true connection Why timing matters in therapy and healing How to recognize image repair masquerading as empathy Why curiosity — not judgment — is the key to growth Whether you’ve lived with a covert narcissist, parented with one, or are watching your adult child unravel years of emotional confusion, this episode offers clarity and direction. 🎧 Subscribe so you don’t miss any of this series and future episodes that guide you back to your truth. DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BY RENEE SWANSON, COVERT NARCISSISM PODCAST, AND CNG LIFE COACHING IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE USED FOR DIAGNOSIS PURPOSES AND NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLINICAL CARE. PLEASE CONSULT A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER FOR GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO YOUR CASE. THIS MATERIAL DISCUSSES NARCISSISM IN GENERAL. RENEE SHARES STORIES FROM HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AS WELL AS FROM THOSE SHE HAS TALKED WITH FOR SEVERAL YEARS. HER MATERIAL DOES NOT CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON HAS NARCISSISM AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON AS HAVING NARCISSISM. PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO LINK TO OR REPOST THIS MATERIAL TO SUPPORT AN ALLEGATION OR SUPPORT A CLAIM THAT ANY SPECIFIC PERSON IS A NARCISSIST. THAT WOULD BE AN UNAUTHORIZED MISUSE OF THE MATERIAL AND INFORMATION PROVIDED.

Baiting is one of the most maddening—and most misunderstood—tactics used by covert narcissists. It’s the emotional equivalent of poking you with a stick just to watch you react, then sitting back and saying, “Wow… look how angry you are.” In this episode, we unpack exactly how covert narcissists bait you into emotional reactions—and why they benefit from pushing your buttons. From passive-aggressive digs and guilt trips to carefully crafted public humiliation, we break down the subtle ways they set you up to explode while they keep their mask perfectly intact. You’ll hear: Real-life examples of narcissistic baiting Why they want you to react (and what they gain from it) Sarcastic comebacks you’ll want to say—but probably shouldn’t Tools for staying grounded, using the Gray Rock method, and protecting your peace If you’ve ever walked away from a conversation thinking, “How did I just become the bad guy again?”—this episode is for you.

Part two of a 4 part series on Guilt and Shame with guest, Dr. Anthony Mazzella, Psychotherapist & Host of The Narcissism Decoder Podcast What if the guilt you carry… isn’t actually guilt at all? In Part Two of this powerful conversation, Renee and Dr. Anthony Mazzella dive into the subtle but life-changing difference between guilt and shame—and why confusing the two can keep you stuck in cycles of self-blame, anxiety, and emotional paralysis. You’ll learn: Why guilt is actually a sign of emotional health—and a driver of change How shame stunts growth while guilt motivates repair The difference between healthy guilt, toxic guilt, and emotional manipulation Why narcissists often fake guilt through apology—but never actually change How to recognize when you're feeling shame, not guilt, and what to do about it The role of empathy, boundaries, and emotional development in healing Why we must give our pain words—and why shame so often lives unnamed If you’ve ever said, “I feel so guilty…” but couldn’t put your finger on why—or felt weighed down by an apology you can’t stop making—this episode is for you. This is the emotional fork in the road: one path leads to healing. The other keeps you stuck in someone else’s story.

With a covert narcissist, the outcome is always the same: you’re the problem. No matter how gently you speak, how carefully you tread, or how hard you try—somehow, it always comes back to you. That’s not bad communication. That’s emotional abuse wrapped in manipulation, guilt, and gaslighting. In this episode, we walk through a choose-your-own-adventure version of life with a covert narcissist—where every decision leads to blame, confusion, or emotional fallout. Whether it’s handling a parenting issue, grabbing lunch with a friend, or simply protecting your child’s mental health, you’re forced into impossible choices with no right answers. You’ll hear: Why life with a covert narcissist feels like a rigged game The emotional toll of always being the villain in their story The healthy option you never get—and why that’s the deepest grief How to begin choosing yourself even when every road feels unsafe If you’ve been stuck in a cycle of trying harder, only to end up blamed again—you need this episode. It’s not you. It was never you. And it’s time to stop carrying the weight of someone else’s dysfunction.

Part one of a 4 part series on Guilt and Shame with guest, Dr. Anthony Mazzella, Psychotherapist & Host of The Narcissism Decoder Podcast What if the root of so much emotional pain, self-sabotage, and confusion isn’t who you are—but what you've carried? In this powerful first episode of a two-part series, Renee is joined by Dr. Anthony Mazzella to explore how shame, not arrogance or ego, often sits at the center of narcissistic traits—both in ourselves and in the people who have hurt us. Together, they unpack: What shame really is—and how it’s different from guilt How shame starts in early childhood through misattunement, rejection, or humiliation The invisible ways shame shapes identity, emotions, and behavior How narcissistic defenses like projection, withdrawal, and perfectionism are fueled by shame Why people-pleasing is often a mask for hidden shame How religious, cultural, or family systems can unknowingly create shame-based beliefs Shame isn’t just an emotion—it becomes a lens through which we see ourselves and the world. It’s not something we feel—it’s something we become. And unless we learn how to name it, it quietly dictates how we love, hide, lash out, or shut down. Whether you’ve lived with a covert narcissist or find yourself stuck in patterns you don’t fully understand, this episode will help you name the invisible wound behind it all—and take the first step toward healing.