

The Mob Mentality Show
The Mob Mentality Show
Chris Lucian and Austin Chadwick discuss all things agile and product development from a mob programming perspective.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Jul 21, 2025 • 44min
Why Team Fit Trumps Resume Skills – Mob Interviewing Stories With William Bernting
In this eye-opening episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we sit down with software engineer and consultant William Bernting to explore a radical approach to hiring, teamwork, and technical leadership.
William walks us through his real-world experience with mob programming interviews—a collaborative hiring process where candidates join the team in an ensemble coding session, not a contrived solo coder test. He shares the surprising benefits of evaluating candidates through communication, alignment, and problem-solving over individual technical trivia.
We dive into:
Why mob programming is a great way to assess team fit and long-term success
How to structure collaborative interviews that reduce anxiety and reveal true strengths
What happens when you ditch traditional project-led methods and focus on predictability through steady flow
How the Cynefin framework helps make sense of complex team dynamics and guides leadership decisions
What freelance engineering looks like when trust, autonomy, and collaboration lead the way
William also discusses how he's made his work more stable and sustainable—for both clients and team members—without relying on estimates or rigid plans. Instead, he uses continuous delivery, test-driven development (TDD), and mobbing to achieve results that are both reliable and adaptable.
Whether you're a hiring manager rethinking your interview process, an engineer looking to join better teams, or a leader trying to move beyond chaotic delivery cycles, this conversation offers practical takeaways and fresh perspective.
🧠 Topics covered:
- Mob Programming Interviews
- Collaborative Hiring
- Cynefin Framework in Tech
- Predictability Without Projects
- Freelancing in Software Engineering
- Team Fit Over Resume Skills
- Agile Leadership Without Estimates
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/nnR3_V8FrMQ

Jul 15, 2025 • 49min
Mob Programming at a Startup: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned
In this episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we sit down with Taimoor Imtiaz—CTO at a fast-moving, bootstrapped startup—for a raw, insightful dive into how his small dev team applied mob programming, trunk-based development, and GitHub Flow to accelerate delivery without sacrificing code quality.
Taimoor shares the journey of how his team transitioned from traditional PR-based workflows to real-time collaboration in mobs. Along the way, they faced timer-switching friction, monorepo challenges, and the trade-offs of scaling extreme programming practices in a production environment.
If you’ve ever wondered how mob programming plays out in a high-pressure startup setting—or whether trunk-based development is viable outside of big enterprise environments—this conversation is for you.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
How GitHub Flow can be adapted for trunk-based development
Why mob programming improved debugging and reduced defects
Where mob timebox timers went wrong—and what the team did about it
The real impact of developer experience and culture on delivery speed
Lessons learned from using a monorepo in a fast-growing codebase
Using extreme programming when resources are tight
Whether you’re a startup CTO, team lead, or individual contributor looking to evolve your team’s workflow, this episode offers real-world insights into modern software development practices that actually work under pressure.
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/yTbzycv9qw4

Jul 7, 2025 • 54min
Mob Programming in College, Retro Edition: Prof Ben Kovitz on What He Learned from a Semester of Mobbing
📚 How does Mob Programming really work in the college classroom? In this episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we reconnect with Professor Ben Kovitz to explore the raw lessons, surprising wins, and tough challenges from a full semester of mob programming in a college software design course.
Ben shares what happened when he replaced traditional lectures with real-world collaboration. The results? Students developed practical coding skills, improved their communication, and learned to work together as a true software team—less ego, more shared ownership. From early wins with small group design exercises to complex struggles with C++ memory management and GUI libraries, Ben walks us through what worked, what bombed, and what he’d change next time.
We break down:
Why mob programming created stronger learning and better teamwork than expected
How structured rotations got everyone participating and avoiding common pairing pitfalls
The highs and lows of using C++ and Qt in a classroom setting
The unexpected power of students struggling through real software challenges together
Lessons on undo implementation, design patterns, and memory management from hands-on mobbing
How a semester wasn’t enough time to fully teach long-term code stewardship and habitable design
What might scale—or fall apart—if mob programming were applied to larger classes
How this classroom experience mirrors the real world: legacy code, fast feedback, technical debt, and learning as you go
Whether you’re a software engineer, an educator, or someone passionate about team learning, this episode gives you actionable insights into mob programming as both a teaching tool and a real-world development practice.
We also explore questions like:
Can mob programming work with 30+ students?
How can solo work and group collaboration coexist in the best learning environments?
What does it take to create code that’s not just correct—but actually pleasant to maintain?
If you’re interested in agile learning, collaborative coding, and pushing the boundaries of how we teach and work as software teams, this episode is for you.
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/kbNEfAcfmeo

Jun 24, 2025 • 48min
From Pub Night to Production Code: How a TDD Board Game Transforms Teams with John Wilson, Janis Kampe, and Ted M. Young
🎲 In this episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we dive into a unique and game-changing (literally) approach to learning Test-Driven Development (TDD) with Ted M. Young (JitterTed), John Wilson, and Janis Kampe.
Discover the origin story of the TDD board game that started as a simple teaching aid and evolved into a powerful learning experience for developers, teams, and even product managers. Hear how this game went from casual pub nights to becoming a staple for some in team training sessions, meetups, and Agile coaching toolkits.
We break down:
✅ How the TDD board game helps teams internalize the deeper steps of TDD beyond the basic "Red-Green-Refactor" mantra.
✅ Why the game’s focus on prediction, risk management, and working in small steps transforms the way people think about writing code.
✅ The surprising ways the game builds psychological safety, making it accessible even to people new to TDD or nervous about exposing gaps in their knowledge.
✅ How the game naturally leads to ensemble (mob) programming and seamless transitions into hands-on coding platforms like CyberDojo.
✅ Practical tips on using the game to onboard, coach, and improve team collaboration—whether you're remote, hybrid, or in-person.
We also explore the importance of failing safely, incremental learning, and how the game allows players to experience both the thrill of success and the consequences of cutting corners—without the high stakes of real-world code.
Whether you're a developer, Agile coach, product manager, or just curious about TDD, this episode will give you actionable insights on:
🛠 How to enable continuous learning in your teams.
🎯 Why predicting outcomes matters more than just getting green tests.
🎮 How gamification makes TDD fun, social, and sticky.
Key Topics:
TDD Board Game Mechanics & Variations
Psychological Safety in Learning
Risk vs. Reward in Software Development
Ensemble Programming (Mob Programming)
Transitioning from Game to CyberDojo
Practical Coaching Tools for TDD and XP
Building Stronger Developer-Product Manager Collaboration
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/GjcUdoS5K6I

Jun 16, 2025 • 50min
Why Legacy Code Is Everyone’s Problem: Wouter Lagerweij on Product & Engineering Ownership
Wouter Lagerweij, an independent Agile Coach from the Netherlands, shares insights on tackling legacy code and its underlying organizational issues. He argues that legacy systems reflect deeper problems within teams and emphasizes the significance of cross-functional responsibility. The conversation covers the power of Agile teaming, like mob programming, to enhance collaboration and speed. Wouter also critiques traditional bug tracking as ineffective and promotes a zero-bug policy for better quality. Listeners gain practical strategies for improving their software processes and fostering teamwork.

Jun 9, 2025 • 47min
Powerful, Profitable Software Products – Behind the Book with Kyle Rowland
🎙️ What happens when software engineers and leaders don’t speak the same language? How do context-free Agile practices and technical dogma lead teams astray? And how do we create engineering cultures that deliver real business value without burning out?
In this Mob Mentality Show episode, we sit down with Kyle Rowland—leadership and software consultant, 20-year software engineering veteran, and author of Powerful Profitable Software Products: The Executive Guidebook—to tackle the tough questions at the heart of sustainable, impactful software delivery.
💡 What We Cover in This Episode:
🔧 The Engineering-Leadership Impedance Mismatch
Why do engineering leaders and business leaders often talk past each other? Kyle shares how focusing on both “how” we build and “what” we build—can prevent burnout, bottlenecks, and bad outcomes. We explore why real innovation depends on creating win-win systems, not siloed thinking.
⚠️ The Danger of Context-Free Agile
Many teams argue about Agile, TDD, TBD, and pairing without understanding the systems that make those practices work. Kyle unpacks how context, principles, and shared goals determine whether these tools help or hurt—and how to avoid cargo cult Agile.
🔬 Empiricism vs. Philosophy in Tech Decisions
Is the Agile Manifesto's call for empiricism enough? Or is there still a place for a priori reasoning (argument from principle) in engineering? Kyle argues for a balanced approach—using experiments where we can, and wisdom where we must.
⏱️ The 1:40 Rule and Escaping Tactical Overload
Are you buried in endless 1-on-1s and tactical firefighting? Kyle introduces the “1:40 rule”—a lens for spotting when leaders are too involved in details and not investing in system-level growth. He explains how to avoid organizational entropy and shift your focus from maintenance to momentum.
📚 Plus: Behind the Book
We go deep on Kyle’s new book Powerful Profitable Software Products, exploring practical ways leaders can move from reactive chaos to purpose-driven product delivery—while empowering teams and aligning with business goals.
🎧 Whether you're an engineering leader, product owner, or software dev, this episode is packed with insights on leadership, systems thinking, quality, speed, and how to build software that matters.
FYI: Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/oCK1lMa2s9A

6 snips
Jun 2, 2025 • 47min
Liminal Thinking with Dave Gray: Meet the Man Who Accidentally Wrote a Book About Us
In this engaging discussion, Dave Gray, a visual thinker and author of Liminal Thinking, delves into the power of belief and its impact on our lives and work. He highlights why many Agile transformations fail and how to navigate confusing resistance in teams. With his artistic background, Dave emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for authentic collaboration and change. His insights on perception and how it distorts reality reveal surprising truths, including why lunch with someone you think is 'crazy' might lead to unexpected wisdom.

May 21, 2025 • 46min
From the Birth of XP to the Death of Scrum with Tobias Mayer
In this thought-provoking episode, we sit down with Tobias Mayer—author, coach, and longtime voice in the Agile world—to explore the journey from his early discovery of XP (Extreme Programming) in 1997 all the way to today’s debate around the death of Scrum.
Tobias shares his personal transformation from developer to Scrum Master, his resistance to early XP, and how he learned great practices from developers he managed. We unpack his reflections on Agile’s semantic drift, the role of Scrum Masters as change agents vs. bean counters, and what happens when teams do Agile without even knowing the Agile Manifesto.
🔍 Topics we dive deep into:
Discovering XP through a paper against it 😅
When “Scrum” became a buzzword and what was lost in translation
What it really means to live the values of the Agile Manifesto
XP coaches, grassroots change, and learning from your team
The difference between top-down control and emergent discovery
Misused metaphors in tech: “firefighting,” “war rooms,” “soldiers,” and more
Are software teams more like engineers, artisans, or ensembles?
Can DORA metrics (DevOps Research and Assessment) prove or disprove Agile’s effectiveness?
We also dig into mob programming (aka mobbing)—what it means, why the name matters, and whether or not new metaphors like “ensemble programming” or “teaming” (à la Amy Edmondson) better reflect how high-performing teams really work.
💡 Plus:
The problem with the Product Owner (PO) role in Scrum
Why language in IT shapes behavior—for better or worse
Applying Artful Making to modern product development
Rethinking business through the lens of theatre, philosophy, and cooperative economics
The importance of psychological safety, dissent, and experimentation in creating real agility
Tobias brings rich context from classics, theology, and history—yes, even turning a conference t-shirt into fashion—to challenge how we think about building products, teams, and businesses.
🛠️ Whether you're into XP, Scrum, Mob Programming, Lean, or simply want to rethink your metaphors and language at work, this episode delivers grounded insight, sharp critique, and fresh perspectives.
👉 Subscribe for more conversations at the intersection of agile thinking, real teamwork, and modern product development.
Video and show notes: https://youtu.be/ZFoY-De91BE

May 13, 2025 • 50min
Overrun Navigators, Strong Opinions, and Doc Reading: Prof Ben’s Mobbing Questions from the Trenches
Join Professor Ben Kovitz, a Computer Science educator with 15 years in software development, as he tackles real-world mob programming challenges faced in the classroom. He shares insights on balancing deep thought with group momentum and the debate between upfront design and agile discovery within a mob. Ben also discusses the dynamics of student collaboration, the role of the navigator amidst chaos, and the importance of structured roles. Additionally, he highlights how collaborative documentation can transform learning and enhance problem-solving skills.

May 7, 2025 • 19min
Football, Trust, and Code: What Retro Bowl Teaches Tech Leaders, Coaches, and Teams
🏈 Welcome to another episode of the Mob Mentality Show, where we explore the intersection of software development, leadership, and real-world lessons—from the unexpected to the game-changing. This time, we're talking Coaching Credits—as seen in the addictive mobile football game Retro Bowl—and how they map directly to trust, influence, and leadership in software teams.
🎙️ What are Coaching Credits?
In Retro Bowl, Coaching Credits represent the respect and trust you’ve earned from players, staff, and fans. They let you upgrade your team, hire top-tier talent, and level up your environment. In software development, we argue Coaching Credits are just as real—earned through Extreme Programming (XP), Mob Programming, Test-Driven Development (TDD), Continuous Delivery (CD), and strong relationship-building.
👶 Austin kicks it off with a story about trying to stay awake helping his wife with their new baby—turning to Retro Bowl as a late-night lifeline. That sparks a deep dive into what the game teaches us about:
Building trust and respect through small wins
The balance between performance and relationships
Using “credits” (influence) wisely inside and outside your team
How to upgrade your environment and talent pool over time
What happens when you try to “spend” influence you don’t actually have
👨💻 In Dev Culture Terms:
Earn trust by delivering value. Spend it by coaching others, refactoring code, upgrading environments, or influencing org-wide decisions. Just like in Retro Bowl, you can overreach. Think: trying a big move when your trust bank is empty = a bounced check.
📘 We also tie Coaching Credits to Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits—specifically, the idea of an emotional bank account—and reflect on how these lessons align with the origin story of mob programming.
🚨 Key Questions We Explore:
Can you go into Coaching Credit “debt”?
Is quick wins and trust the only way forward when you're starting from zero?
Are you too transactional in how you lead or code?
Should someone build a Software Dev Sim game like Retro Bowl? 😅
💡 If you're a software engineer, tech lead, or engineering manager, this episode offers a fun but surprisingly deep framework for thinking about how trust, respect, and influence shape the way you build products and teams.
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/ZWgOkphBFNI