Seeing Jesus with Paul Miller

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about how Jesus loves as the cross draws near, turning their attention to the trial scene with Pilate. "Pilate is one of the people in the Gospels who we tend to see through a fairly fixed definition. The scene where he washes his hands is iconic: 'Behold, the man!' So we actually don't have a feel for him as a person. What’s this guy like? It was Edersheim’s book, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, that first put me onto what’s going on in this conversation." "The beauty of poetry is this ability to condense infinity, and Jesus does it all the time." "There’s a degree to which that mocking can help us not take ourselves too seriously, but there's also a way that mocking can prevent us from taking ourselves seriously enough."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about how Jesus loves as the cross draws near, turning their attention to the scene when Judas arrives at the garden. "We can sometimes be fearful of the kind of honest command or these penetrating questions Jesus asks that unmask evil. Sin grows in the dark. And yet here they are coming in the cover of darkness, not realizing they were coming to the one who is the light of the world, who exposes every part of them." "Jesus is the light everywhere he goes." "This whole scene probably takes no more than 10 minutes. But within that time, we see Jesus moving between all these different ways of loving. He's so very present, so aware. He moves in every quadrant of love from powerfully rebuking to asking penetrating questions to protecting the disciples. It’s a beautiful portrait of Jesus loving."

The discussion dives into Jesus' emotional struggle at Gethsemane, emphasizing his profound grief and the impact of divine obedience. The speakers contrast his vulnerability with unwavering commitment to God's will, showcasing his honest feelings while resisting temptation. They explore the Gospels' unique literary style, revealing intimate portrayals of Jesus and his interactions. The moments leading to his crucifixion highlight love over violence and the gentle comfort Jesus offers amidst anxiety, marking the pivotal shift toward new creation.

Paul, Robert, and Liz take a break from their conversations around the passion of Jesus to reflect on Christmas, and in particular, the story of the first live nativity, created by Francis of Assisi. "Francis of Asissi was probably the first person in the church to be completely enamored with, very particularly, the person of Jesus. It just ignited his whole life. He'd been a soldier and had a breakdown after that, as a young man in his early 20s, but then became enchanted with the person of Jesus. By the time he died in his 40s, there were 30,000 Franciscans at their annual conference. His love for Jesus was transformative on the whole medieval mind. He was the first person to create a live nativity scene, and it changed how we celebrate Christmas. Because up till then the book of Matthew, with its portrayal of the wise men, was dominant in the Christmas story, and now, the shepherds came in and got some play." "Francis’ nativity shows what can happen if you fall in love with the person of Jesus!" "For Mary and Joseph, plans keep changing. I mean, they were going to get married and have a baby, as far as we know, in Nazareth, and they had to return for the census. I'm sure in their imagination they were going to have a baby in a better place and they ended up in a manger. Then were going to stay in Bethlehem and an angel came to Joseph and said, ‘Get out of here.’ They had to go to Egypt, and then, even then, they were going to return to Nazareth and the angel appeared to Joseph again. Joseph gets a lot of angel appearances, by the way!"

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about Jesus in his passion, considering what his sighs teach us about being human. "A sigh says so much. We know from Romans 8 that the Spirit himself 'intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words' (Romans 8:26). A sigh, or a groan, expresses things that words can't quite capture. There are two ways we encounter the impact of fall all the time: one is sin and the other one is death. Sin is the moral face of evil, and death, the physical." "Jesus’ sigh is a hybrid of frustration and sadness – somewhere between a fit of anger and a burst of tears." "The cross deals with sin, and the resurrection deals with death. It's a one-two punch. Jesus' healing ministry is all focused on some impact of the curse on our physical world and our bodies. And his teaching ministry is focused on the impact of sin. And so both of them anticipate the final solution, which is the cross and resurrection. The church continues to live out those two ministries of Christ."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation on Jesus' passion, looking at how Jesus begins to face his coming death. To celebrate the complete Person of Jesus series, we're offering $5 off of Unit 5: The Passion Leader's Manual (digital version) when you use promo code: POD5 "Paul's line on that from Romans 5 is actually a very stoic-like passage where he says rejoice in your suffering, because suffering produces perseverance, character – all the Greeks would have agreed with that. But then Paul goes Jesus, so to speak. He says, '…and character, hope, and it's a hope that does not disappoint because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit that he's given to us.' The Spirit brings resurrection, not in just in Jesus, but in our souls; we have resurrected souls." "A life in communion with Christ continually experiences resurrection power. This doesn’t mean there’s no sadness, but we're not engulfed by sadness." "Older, traditional Christianity, as we've said, has tended to be focused on duty, which has many good sides but tends to suppress feelings. The modern world tends to be aware of, magnify, and even get stuck in feelings. So here we see the beautiful balance of Jesus. He is aware that he is troubled, and he knows where this is leading, but he's not ruled by his feelings, which is just beautiful. He says, 'for this very reason I came to this hour.' "

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation on Jesus' passion, turning their attention to Judas' betrayal. In this episode, Paul mentions a talk he gave on Judas several years ago, as part of an audio study called "The Love Course." You can listen to that talk here (or download it to listen to later, if you click on the triple dots.) "How do you know someone is troubled? He was agitated, and when someone is agitated, they're tense, they're restless, they fidget. And John, sitting right next to him, could sense that. Leaning up against him, he probably felt the tenseness in Jesus' body." "Jesus has kind of given us a template to be ourselves..." "This doesn't mean that ‘yourself’ is always right but is a beautiful picture of normal. I have one older friend who will often get depressed and sometimes the reason for her feeling depressed is that her circumstances are depressing! I encourage her that it’s okay to be depressed, because your life is depressing. While that may not sound like an encouragement, I think it’s helpful to see that Jesus allows space for sadness, because often what Christians are dealing with is guilt on top of depression."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about learning from Jesus in his passion. "Contrary to the typical pictures on a Sunday school wall, Jesus comes down the hill on Palm Sunday weeping – the word is actually closer to 'wailing.' In our experience of humanity, people who wail and warrior kings are never the same person, but Jesus is a wailing warrior king. His heart is filled sadness over what his people will suffer, and he will fight to the death for them." "There’s a pattern of action that we see throughout the Bible – seeing is the beginning of action." "We see this pattern in the prayers of the Psalms ('Lord, see what I'm doing, look down from heaven'), and in God’s response in situations, ('I've seen the travail of my people and I've come down…'). Most human action begins with seeing. And so, we see here with Jesus, it is seeing the city that moves him to tears. He doesn't use his divinity to see it over the hill two miles out. Jesus reacts in the situation, just like you and me."

The conversation dives into the deep emotions of Jesus, particularly his sadness over the rejection he faced. His lament for Jerusalem reveals both grief and the profound nature of his love. The speakers explore how love and sadness intertwine, emphasizing that understanding this sadness enriches our view of intimacy and obedience. They discuss the emotional risks involved in deep relationships, using poignant examples to illustrate the significance of vulnerability in love. This exploration highlights the timeless relevance of Jesus' emotional journey today.

Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about the humility Jesus calls us to, looking at what taking the lower place might look like in an everyday moment. "Humility is when your heart is humbled, it's a virtue, a character trait. Humiliation is when your circumstances are humble. It's helpful to distinguish between the two, but having experienced some of the dying of humility in my life, I slowly learned that these two things are deeply connected." "The place of humiliation is where you learn humility." "You do not learn humility abstractly. You have to be in a humbled place. The story I'm going to tell here is made up, but it's the kind of thing that happens everyday. I've made the husband the bad guy, but I've also told it where I flip the husband and wife. But everybody gets mad at the husband in this no matter which way I do it!"