The Engineering Leadership Podcast

As eng leaders, we’re often strapped for resources – so learning how to advocate for more support is vital. Megan Kacholia, VP of Engineering @ Google, reveals her best strategies when it comes to asking for more resources, removing linchpins / critical points of failure from your eng team, encouraging others to accept changes that will benefit them, knowing when to say “yes” vs. “no” to new responsibilities (and the trade-offs that come with that decision), and navigating challenging situations as a manager.ABOUT MEGAN KACHOLIAMegan Kacholia is a Vice President of Engineering within Google's Core organization.  She is a leader in the Cross-Google Engineering (xGE) effort, which is responsible for company-wide technical coordination. Her passion is building effective teams and addressing barriers to help Googlers do their best work.Previously, Megan was and VP in Google’s Research organization, where her team’s work spanned machine learning in research as well as production, including products such as TensorFlow, and prior to that she had a long tenure in Google’s Ads organization, where she ran the serving system for Google’s DisplayAds business.  Megan has a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science from UIUC."At the end of the day, we had to be able to explain it to the team. Right? And I can't go and tell the team and be like, 'Well, the opex costs are too high because you know of this reason with the headcount and this and that and I know so and so told you they love you, but really it didn't mean this thing.'In some ways, those details don't matter, right? What matters is these people are worried that their project's getting shut down. So when it came time to communicate that we actually were gonna shut it down. We have to do an official shutdown because we have to announce it externally. So that means we have to make sure people only have so many weeks to find a new project and all of these things. So the main thing I emphasize when I talked to them wasn't about like, 'Oh, I did all of this work to try and save your project, and I couldn't.' That was irrelevant. It couldn't be saved.The most important thing was about what's the impact for the people? Well, I've already lined up options and positions for every single one.”- Megan Kacholia  Check out our friends and sponsor, JellyfishTo learn more about Jellyfish and how they can help you increase engineering satisfaction and create happier, higher-performing engineering teams.Learn more at Jellyfish.co/elcJoin us for one of our in-person community events!That's right! We're hosting in-person community events in San Francisco, New York City, Seattle, and Chicago! Break out of your comfort zone and join us in a casual environment to connect, problem-solve, and support each other in our engineering leadership journeys.Don't see your city on the list? No problem!Reach out to Tim at Tim@sfelc.com and let's bring ELC to you - and make it happen!TO GET INVOLVED, EMAIL OUR HEAD OF COMMUNITY TIM AT TIM@SFELC.COMSHOW NOTES:How Megan advocated for more resources / support at Google (3:07)Convincing direct reports to accept changes & understand benefits (6:07)Insights on how to drive change within your eng team (10:20)Balancing accuracy & simplicity when communicating with your team (12:29)Frameworks for saying “yes” vs. “no” to new responsibilities (16:41)What to do when the decision to say “yes” or “no” isn’t clear (19:46)Having the confidence to say “no” (20:53)Find ways to give your team control within the given situation (24:38)The hardest situations to say “no” to as an eng leader (25:54)Megan’s approach to managing people with more experience than you (28:57)How to navigate managing someone you have a pre-existing peer relationship with (31:09)Knowing when to help vs. fix as a manager (35:14)Tips for removing “linchpins” / critical points of failure from your eng team (37:34)Rapid fire questions (41:12)LINKS AND RESOURCESThe Emperor of All Maladies - Physician, researcher, and award-winning science writer, Siddhartha Mukherjee examines cancer with a cellular biologist’s precision, a historian’s perspective, and a biographer’s passion. The result is an astonishingly lucid and eloquent chronicle of a disease humans have lived with—and perished from—for more than five thousand years.This episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

Bhavini Soneji, VP of Product Engineering @ Cruise, shares her leadership journey & how she gained cross-functional experience working at both large & small organizations. We cover how to gain product experience alongside engineering, deciding which elements of your org to mature/invest in, why you should examine the role of fear in your decision-making, and strategies for asking for more experience & opportunities to gain confidence.ABOUT BHAVINI SONEJIBhavini loves using human-centered design with streamlined automation to create experiences that improve people’s lives. Previously, she has led teams through different growth stages at Microsoft, Snapchat, Headspace, and Heal. Additionally, she enjoys giving back to the community, advising C-level executives, mentoring at Techstars, First Round, and has also founded a group of Women Technology Executives in Los Angeles to support and foster this group while playing an active role in the LA CTO Forum. When she’s not working, she loves the outdoors and enjoys boogie boarding with her husband and twins."Just knowing kind of the imposter syndrome that is holding you back. For me, it is like I'm always having a very high bar so am I hitting myself more and how do I be kind to myself? How do I support myself better? So I think that's one thing first, looking back and saying, 'No. I've done this, this, this. So my fears are not true, otherwise, I wouldn't be here.'”- Bhavini Soneji   Check out our friends and sponsor, JellyfishTo learn more about Jellyfish and how they can help you increase engineering satisfaction and create happier, higher-performing engineering teams.Learn more at Jellyfish.co/elcJoin us for one of our in-person community events!That's right! We're hosting in-person community events in San Francisco, New York City, Seattle, and Chicago! Break out of your comfort zone and join us in a casual environment to connect, problem-solve, and support each other in our engineering leadership journeys.Don't see your city on the list? No problem!Reach out to Tim at Tim@sfelc.com and let's bring ELC to you - and make it happen!TO GET INVOLVED EMAIL OUR HEAD OF COMMUNITY TIM ATTIM@SFELC.COMSHOW NOTES:Bhavini’s leadership journey & gaining cross-functional experience (2:47)How Bhavini tactically transitioned from each role into the next (7:24)Watch for fears & biases throughout your decision-making (11:53)Frameworks for identifying fears that are holding you back (13:41)Examples of how cross-functional leadership differs at large vs. small orgs (16:32)Conversation tips for getting stakeholders back on track (20:08)Determining which elements of an org to mature/invest in (21:32)Questions to consider when investing in technology or processes (24:03)What to invest in when an organization’s scale starts picking up (26:06)Why investing in the people element can be trickier than processes or tooling (29:26)Strategies for asking for new experiences (32:03)Bhavini’s favorite question for identifying/clarifying what you want next (34:22)Rapid fire questions (35:52)LINKS AND RESOURCESPrisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall - an award-winning journalist uses ten maps of crucial regions to explain the geo-political strategies of the world powers.This episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

We discuss the differences between building a platform versus a product with Oksana Kubushyna, Head of Operations, Entertainment @ Riot Games! She shares about her leadership journey building the Riot Platform Group and transitioning from a technical lead to management role, tips for empowering your team, how to utilize cross-discipline thinking, the importance of internal measurement metrics, and how Oksana strategically utilizes OODA loops in her leadership style.ABOUT OKSANA KUBUSHYNAAs VP of Entertainment Operations, Oksana Kubushyna oversees operations of Riot’s Entertainment division with a goal to imagine and develop bespoke IP experiences and products - animation, film, interactive narratives, music, consumer products and beyond - that deepen players’ and fans’ connections to the universe Riot has created in League of Legends.After joining Riot in 2014, she quickly rose through the ranks, holding positions including Head of Infrastructure, Development Director for League of Legends, founder and Head of Riot Platform Group, and VP of Game Studios Operations, helping build the foundation for, launch and operate Riot’s new games globally.After a few years working on establishing Riot Games' Entertainment division and releasing the award-winning Arcane animated TV series, Oksana has shifted her focus back to Riot's Game Studios where she recently took on managing Riot's Production, QA, and Creative departments.She has also been a leader of Diversity and Inclusion efforts within Riot. Her passion for the advancement of women in games and tech reaches beyond Riot, and she has been honored by groups such as Girls Inc. and Wonder Women Tech."So for one decision of a CEO, the entire company can take months and months of work on observing, orienting, and deciding before that decision is settled throughout the organization. Now, imagine if CEO the very next day comes in and makes another decision of the same scope, and another one, because for CEO that decisions already done. He can move on or she can move on, but the team is still like wrangling. So it's very important for you as a leader to understand the speed at which your company or your team can process your decisions and act and settle in them before you make the next one.- Oksana Kubushyna   Check out our friends and sponsor, JellyfishTo learn more about Jellyfish and how they can help you increase engineering satisfaction and create happier, higher-performing engineering teams.Learn more at Jellyfish.co/elcSHOW NOTES:Oksana’s experience building & leading the Riot Platform Group (2:15)Lessons learned while transitioning from product to platform (4:23)How to utilize cross-discipline thinking when building out something new (7:30)Strategies for transitioning from single- to multiple-discipline thinking (11:14)The benefits of empowering the team around you (13:37)Differences between building a product vs. building a platform (17:08)Tactics for balancing building ahead of stakeholders with maintaining vision (20:32)Internal measurement metrics that are key to Oksana’s team (23:03)How Oksana utilizes OODA loops within her leadership style (25:55)Tips for reducing the pain of the decision-making process (29:27)What drawing a picture of decisions looks like (33:25)Rapid fire questions (36:04)This episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

Shadi Rostami, SVP of Engineering @ Amplitude, joins us to discuss key insights and strategies to increase your engineering orgs capacity to win in an economic downturn. We cover cultivating a founder’s mindset and increasing product ownership in engineering. Plus prioritization strategies, determining where to invest resources, and shifting your team’s perspective from skepticism to optimism.ABOUT SHADI ROSTAMIShadi Rostami is SVP of engineering at Amplitude. She is a passionate, seasoned technology leader and architect experienced in building and managing highly proficient engineering teams. Prior to Amplitude, she was VP of Engineering at Palo Alto Networks. She has innovated and delivered several product lines and services specializing in distributed systems, cloud computing, big data, machine learning, and security. She has a Ph.D. in computer engineering from the University of British Columbia and a B.Sc. from Sharif University of Technology. Shadi has published several peer-reviewed conference articles and journals as well as several patents."Many, many years ago, I went to my VP and I asked him, ‘Rajiv, I don't know, shall I do A or B?’ And he told me, ‘if it was your own money and your own company, which decision you would've made?’ I said, ‘I'll do A,’ he says, ‘then you know the answer. You don't need to come and ask me. Right? Put your founder hat on and tell me what decision we should be making.’ Shall we do A or shall we do B? That is the ultimate sense of ownership.”- Shadi Rostami  Check out our friends and sponsor, JellyfishTo learn more about Jellyfish and how they can help you increase engineering satisfaction and create happier, higher-performing engineering teams.Learn more at Jellyfish.co/elcJoin us for one of our in-person community events!That's right! We're hosting in-person community events in San Francisco, New York City, Seattle, and Chicago! Break out of your comfort zone and join us in a casual environment to connect, problem-solve, and support each other in our engineering leadership journeys.Don't see your city on the list? No problem! Reach out to Tim at Tim@sfelc.com and let's bring ELC to you - and make it happen!To get involved email our Head of Community Tim at Tim@sfelc.comSHOW NOTES:Examples of how engineering increases an org’s capacity for winning (1:54)Strategies to drive product-led growth (4:58)Why product-led prioritization is key during an economic downturn (6:56)Balancing quantitative vs. qualitative data when determining where to invest resources in (9:12)Set the same goal for your eng team & the product (12:44)The importance of weekly learning users & other valuable metrics (15:58)How a founder mindset fosters a product ownership mentality in engineers (18:47)Practices to help cultivate a founder mentality (23:10)Shadi’s advice for better translation between the business & engineering (27:16)Tactics for reframing a conversation from skepticism to perpetual optimism (29:43)Owning the product experience within the restraints of an economic downturn (33:29)Signals to watch for that it’s time to pivot (36:17)How to increase opportunities for your team to find luck (41:46)Rapid fire questions (43:41)LINKS AND RESOURCESFresh Air - Fresh Air from WHYY, the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues, is one of public radio's most popular programs. Hosted by Terry Gross, the show features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.All Things Considered - NPR’s flagship evening newsmagazine, delivering in-depth reporting that transforms the way listeners understand current events and view the world.All-In - Industry veterans, degenerate gamblers & besties Chamath Palihapitiya, Jason Calacanis, David Sacks & David Friedberg cover all things economic, tech, political, social & poker. This episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

We cover resilience engineering & learning from incidents with John Allspaw, former CTO @ Etsy and current Founder & Principal @ Adaptive Capacity Labs! Co-hosted by Kenji Kiuchi (Head of Quality and Performance @ Postman) this episode also addresses common unintuitive perspectives within resilience engineering, strategies for effective incident response / problem solving, how to identify current sources of resilience, and practical tips for implementing these resiliency tactics in your organization today.ABOUT JOHN ALLSPAWJohn Allspaw (@allspaw) has worked in software systems engineering and operations for over twenty years in many different environments. John’s publications include the books The Art of Capacity Planning (2009) and Web Operations (2010) as well as the forward to “The DevOps Handbook.”  His 2009 Velocity talk with Paul Hammond, “10+ Deploys Per Day: Dev and Ops Cooperation” helped start the DevOps movement. John served as CTO at Etsy, and holds an MSc in Human Factors and Systems Safety from Lund University."The competitive advantage is not for a leader to say, ‘Why did it take so long to restore this issue or resolve this outage?’ A competitive advantage is, ‘Oh my God, that is amazing. Tell me what made this hard and what are any of the things that made it difficult to resolve? Is there anything I can do to help get out of the way for people to do the work?’"- John Allspaw   ABOUT KENJI KIUCHIKenji Kiuchi (@dr_kiuchi) is Head of Quality and Performance at Postman, an API platform whose mission is to maximize everyone's creativity through the power of connected software. There he leads a global team with a focus on maximizing user delight and innovating the practice of testing. Before coming to Postman, he spent several years ‘Helping people get Jobs” at Indeed. There, he worked on scaling teams and practice to optimize engineering delivery as well as leading Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging initiatives as an Associate Site Director. Prior to Indeed, Kenji spent several years as an Engineering Manager at Twitter where he led Quality efforts across monetization, growth, infra and the delivery of live video. When Kenji isn’t driving engineering excellence, he’s driving his motorcycle, spending quality time with his 3 daughters, and mentoring leaders across the globe.Check out our friends and sponsor, JellyfishTo learn more about Jellyfish and how they can help you increase engineering satisfaction and create happier, higher-performing engineering teams...Learn more at Jellyfish.co/elcSHOW NOTES:John’s perspective on production (4:27)What drove John toward resilience engineering (6:22)How complex systems relate to resilience engineering (9:23)Differences between robustness and resilience (13:13)The role of productive adaptation in resilience engineering (17:26)Identify sources of resilience already present in your organization (22:52)Examples of unintuitive perspectives involving incident analysis (27:15)How to make room for unintuitive perspectives (31:41)Practical tips for implementing resiliency tactics & understanding incidents (36:12)Rapid fire questions (39:51)LINKS AND RESOURCESLearning From Incidents Conference 2023 - This is a forum for sharing stories of incidents, incident handling, and the learnings from software engineers who handle large-scale distributed software systems.Hindsight and Sacrifice Decisions Blog Post on Adaptive Capacity Labs reaction to the NYSE halting trading to resolve an issueUsing Language by Herbert H. Clark - Herbert Clark argues that language use is more than the sum of a speaker speaking and a listener listening. It is the joint action that emerges when speakers and listeners, writers and readers perform their individual actions in coordination, as ensembles. In contrast to work within the cognitive sciences, which has seen language use as an individual process, and to work within the social sciences, which has seen it as a social process, the author argues strongly that language use embodies both individual and social processes.Papers We Love TalkVisual Momentum

Ryan Graciano, Co-Founder & CTO @ Credit Karma, shares with us what it’s like to start a company during an economic downturn, how his leadership style had to evolve alongside Credit Karma’s growth, advice for running lean operations, bridging the gap between engineering & business, how to scale the business as the company matures, and identifying & correcting team/org dysfunctions. In addition, Ryan shares some of his favorite successful & failed leadership experiments that helped evolve his leadership style!ABOUT RYAN GRACIANOAs a co-founder of Credit Karma and Chief Technical Officer, Ryan Graciano (@rmgraci) has grown the company’s engineering department from a one-man band into a team of hundreds, developing a technical framework to support the company’s rapid growth. His expertise and innovation has helped bring new levels of usability and sophistication to financial services technologies.Today, Ryan runs an ever-expanding group of engineers tasked with building out new products at pace while stressing a culture of agility and experimentation, even as Credit Karma reaches new levels of scale. As a leader, he serves as a constructive agitator, looking to break down traditional workplace hierarchies and empowering each member of his department with real influence over the future of the product.Ryan has a Bachelors degree in Computer Science from the Georgia Institute of Technology and spent five years at IBM before joining Credit Karma."When I was earlier in my career, I really thought that the CTO's job was to know the most about the technology. Really, the CTO's job is to hire the people that know the most about the technology and then translate it to the business people who don't speak it at all.”- Ryan Graciano   Looking for ways to support the show?Send a link to the show to your marketing team! https://sfelc.com/podcastsIf your company is looking to gain exposure to thousands of engineering leaders and key decision-makers, we have sponsorship opportunities available.To explore sponsor opportunities, email us at sponsor@sfelc.comInterested in joining an ELC Peer Group?ELCs Peer Groups provide a virtual, curated, and ongoing peer learning opportunity to help you navigate the unknown, uncover solutions and accelerate your learning with a small group of trusted peers.Apply to join a peer group HERE: sfelc.com/peerGroupsSHOW NOTES:What the early days at Credit Karma looked like (2:31)Eng leadership lessons learned from the early-stage days (4:03)Ryan’s advice on running lean & determining what matters most (5:42)The inflection point when Credit Karma’s priorities shifted (8:31)Strategies for bridging the gap between engineering & business (12:44)What was most helpful for designing a monetization engine early on (15:07)How Ryan’s leadership style evolved as Credit Karma expanded (16:37)Frameworks for identifying areas of improvement as an eng leader (18:32)Who do you hire first to scale yourself and your eng org? And other scaling principles (20:13)How to identify deficiencies in your system (22:00)An example of how detecting a dysfunction lead to systematic transformation (26:00)Tips for hosting conversations that lead to buy in / alignment (28:29)Ryan’s favorite failed leadership experiments (30:18)Why it’s important for leadership teams to measure & respond (35:50)Matching the vision for the organization to what you want to see in a product (37:04)When adjustments have to be made to the org’s vision (42:18)Rapid fire questions (43:40)LINKS AND RESOURCESThe Genome Odyssey - In The Genome Odyssey, Dr. Euan Ashley, Stanford professor of medicine and genetics, brings the breakthroughs of precision medicine to vivid life through the real diagnostic journeys of his patients and the tireless efforts of his fellow doctors and scientists as they hunt to prevent, predict, and beat disease.

Join Annie Cheng, VP of Engineering at Waymo; Claire Hough, CTO at Carbon Health; and Lisa Gelobter, CEO of tEQuitable, as they share their inspiring journeys navigating a male-dominated industry. Discover their wisdom on taking bold risks in career transitions and overcoming imposter syndrome. They discuss the importance of work-life balance, mentorship, and support systems, while challenging societal norms around assertiveness in women. This engaging conversation empowers listeners to embrace their uniqueness and celebrate their successes.

Cal Henderson, Co-founder and CTO of Slack, and Maria Kazandjieva, Co-founder of Graft and former Netflix innovator, share their insights on becoming a force multiplier in organizations. They discuss the journey of leadership in startups, emphasizing adaptability and effective delegation. Strategies for aligning teams during transitions are highlighted, along with the importance of reflective time management for tech leaders. The duo also explores team dynamics, communication, and the societal responsibilities of the tech industry.

As eng leaders, there are many things outside of our control – however, Megan Kacholia (VP of Eng @ Google) believes being deliberate can help you realize the many factors you DO have control of. Megan provides real-life lessons from her own leadership journey on how to take ownership of your time/calendar, tips for saying “yes” & knowing when to say “no,” and strategies for communicating with authenticity. Megan also covers why it’s important as an eng leader to feel comfortable with feeling uncomfortable, frameworks for having difficult conversations, communicating with empathy, and how she balances her role in a part-time capacity.This is a featured session from ELC Annual 2022 - check out all of the sessions here:https://hubs.la/Q01wHBrS0ABOUT MEGAN KACHOLIAMegan Kacholia is a Vice President of Engineering within Google's Core organization.  She is a leader in the Cross-Google Engineering (xGE) effort, which is responsible for company-wide technical coordination. Her passion is building effective teams and addressing barriers to help Googlers do their best work.Previously, Megan was and VP in Google’s Research organization, where her team’s work spanned machine learning in research as well as production, including products such as TensorFlow, and prior to that she had a long tenure in Google’s Ads organization, where she ran the serving system for Google’s DisplayAds business.  Megan has a Bachelor's of Science in Computer Science from UIUC.“They ask you, 'Okay! You know, we need to get this thing really done by Friday!'Okay, fine. So I send my manager note, 'I'm taking care of that. But however... this, and this will not get done this week. Or I'm gonna delegate them to so-and-so. This is the trade-off I've made. Speak now or forever hold your peace. Here's what I'm doing.'And we move forward. People seem very surprised by this sometimes, but this has been one of the best ways I have found in engaging with not only my managers but my peers. In terms of making very clear, what's on MY plate.”- Megan Kacholia   Looking for ways to support the show?Send a link to the show to your marketing team! https://sfelc.com/podcastsIf your company is looking to gain exposure to thousands of engineering leaders and key decision-makers, we have sponsorship opportunities available.To explore sponsor opportunities, email us at sponsor@sfelc.comInterested in joining an ELC Peer Group?ELCs Peer Groups provide a virtual, curated, and ongoing peer learning opportunity to help you navigate the unknown, uncover solutions and accelerate your learning with a small group of trusted peers.Apply to join a peer group HERE: sfelc.com/peerGroupsSHOW NOTES:Megan’s leadership journey with Google & how she balances her role in a part-time capacity (02:39)Questions to determine how to best spend your time (5:07)Frameworks for saying “yes” – and why that also means saying “no” (8:40)Be wary of situations where one person is the “lynchpin” (13:04)Advice on providing honest, authentic feedback (14:27)Strategies for having difficult conversations & knowing when to take a step back (16:25)Embrace different perspectives (19:45)Why it’s important as an eng leader to get used to discomfort (21:44)Final thoughts on how to make deliberate decisions (24:23)Audience Q&As: judging the quality of a decision separately from its outcome (26:07)Examples of how saying “yes” helped fuel Megan’s career growth (27:44)Techniques for communicating with empathy (30:30)How to decide between the safe vs. difficult choice (31:44)Megan’s advice on giving peer-to-peer feedback (33:10)Tips for communicating appropriately & speaking out in the moment (35:50)How Megan navigated a traditionally non-linear career move (38:33)What to do if “no” in an unacceptable answer (41:36)

Reorgs are never easy, often impacting eng teams – and that’s why they should always be a last resort. However, sometimes they are necessary for an org’s success! Mike Tria (Head of Eng @ Atlassian) joins Aaron Erickson (Co-Founder & CEO @ Orgspace) to discuss frameworks & strategies for implementing a successful reorg, why eng leaders should be involved throughout the entire reorg process, alternative solutions to reorgs, who is accountable when a reorg goes poorly, how to improve communication channels throughout a reorg, and implementing smooth transitions.This is a featured session from ELC Annual 2022 - check out all of the sessions here: https://hubs.la/Q01wHBrS0ABOUT AARON ERICKSONAaron Erickson (@AaronErickson) is Co-Founder and CEO at Orgspace. Before Orgspace, he spent 30 years working in leadership roles, most recently as VP Engineering at New Relic. Over the course of his entire career, he has been an advocate for building better software. He spent a decade at ThoughtWorks, where he drove digital transformation via application of agile and continuous delivery. Aaron lives and works in San Francisco."As managers when we've gone through reorgs they tend to be so painful and difficult to pull off that by the time we finish the reorg, all we wanna do is wipe our hands of it and be like, 'All right, I wanna move on to the next thing. Reorgs over!'How do you know it's successful? 'The changes are made in Workday. We sent the email. The reorg therefore is successful.'No, it is not! You have inserted an organ into the patient. You do not know if the organ will be accepted.- Mike Tria   ABOUT MIKE TRIAMike Tria is the Head of Engineering for Platform at Atlassian. Mike oversees Atlassian's global cloud infrastructure, identity & front-end platforms, enterprise offerings, and our third-party developer ecosystem. Mike has 15+ years of experience as a software engineer and leader, ranging from work at cloud-native startups to larger companies. He's built and run all facets of product development, including product management, design, engineering, QA, and SCM/release, but has mostly focused on SaaS, e-commerce, and building communities. As a former comedian, Mike also brings high energy and a sense of humor to the tough challenges he faces. He holds a B.S. in Computer Science from the Georgia Institute of Technology.Looking for ways to support the show?Send a link to the show to your marketing team! https://sfelc.com/podcastsIf your company is looking to gain exposure to thousands of engineering leaders and key decision-makers, we have sponsorship opportunities available.To explore sponsor opportunities, email us at sponsor@sfelc.comInterested in joining an ELC Peer Group?ELCs Peer Groups provide a virtual, curated, and ongoing peer learning opportunity to help you navigate the unknown, uncover solutions and accelerate your learning with a small group of trusted peers.Apply to join a peer group HERE: sfelc.com/peerGroupsSHOW NOTES:Aaron & Mike’s experiences with good & bad reorgs (2:39)Types of reorgs – starting with the quota reorg (5:03)Defining the trend-chaser & its challenges (6:16)The zombie reorg & why only 20% of reorgs find success (7:20)How management by rumor reorgs can hurt your product & org (9:10)The best reorg framework: strategy, organization, then people last (10:37)Two major qualities of a successful reorg (13:58)Involve your eng leaders early in the reorg process (18:02)Traits of a reorg in wartime vs. peacetime (20:28)Defining the reverse Conway maneuver (23:24)Who should be held accountable when a reorg goes poorly? (25:04)Audience Q&As: entering a reorg with a KPI thesis (28:08)Improving the chain of communication & involvement during a reorg (30:19)Alternatives to reorgs (32:39)Strategies for setting your org up for success throughout continuous pivots (34:39)Aaron & Mike’s views on functional vs. mission team structures (37:04)How to support a reorg as an eng leader (39:35)Tips for implementing smooth transitions throughout a reorg (41:32)LINKS AND RESOURCES“The Re-org Rag” - video by Forrest Brazeal (@forrestbrazeal)