Mind & Life Europe Podcast

As an introduction to this new season of conversations, I sat down with Dr Hanne De Jaegher, who was the backbone of Semester 4 of our Core Enaction Programme. She is well known in the worlds of philosophy and cognitive science for her development - with Dr Ezequiel Di Paolo - of the theory of participatory sense-making, which grew out of the enactive approach and which takes seriously our expertise in intersubjectivity by virtue of our being human.  For those who are new to participatory sense-making, here are a few words from Hanne’s wonderful website: “Participatory sense-making is a conceptual, scientific, and experiential framework for investigating our social lives. It builds conceptual bridges between the different disciplines working on intersubjectivity. These concepts and methods are being applied to issues such as autism, therapeutic practices, learning and teaching, intimacy, development. In turn, the applications inform the further construction of the theory.” See also Hanne De Jaegher and Ezequiel Di Paolo, "Participatory sense-making: An enactive approach to social cognition" (2007).In this conversation, we dwell with some of the key questions that emerged from our experiment in Semester 4 of bringing participatory sense-making into conversation with the exigencies of intersubjective practices in the world today. And we consider some of the tensions that are necessary to an approach that seeks to understand interactional dynamics across differences and asymmetries, recognising the care or concern that is at the core of a person’s agency. We also reflect a bit on the experiment itself of Core Enaction, Semester 4, and the ways in which it mirrored the ongoing challenge we all encounter of neither overdetermining nor underdetermining an interactional situation. ***Please follow our work and consider donating to Mind & Life Europe or joining our MLE Friends community! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this second season of the podcast, we are prolonging an experiment of sorts that we conducted in the spring of 2024 in the Core Enaction Programme, our online learning curriculum. Over the course of eight sessions, we invited researcher-practitioners into an open space of dialogue to explore how their intersubjective practices might be informed and enriched by participatory sense-making, and how participatory sense-making might in turn benefit from the forms of knowing implicit in these intersubjective practices. The semester paid visit to artists and curators, therapists and teachers, neurodivergent thinkers and AI specialists, musicians and choreographers. A central thread of these encounters was the intersubjective expertise that we all possess just by virtue of being human, and how that expertise is made manifest and refined in the different intersubjective practices that we explored. The question of ethics quietly guided many of these conversations, prompting us to consider how our ways of knowing eminently relate to our ways of being and doing, and how we might use our knowing to interact with each other in more skilful ways. We ended the semester by considering what an enactive ethics might imply, both as an ethics of participation and an ethics of engaging across difference, where difference is considered in all its generativity. In many ways, it was an experiment of exploring the "living, lived logic" underlying human knowing, to borrow a phrase from Dr Hanne De Jaegher.We decided to bring each dialogue group back for a second round of conversations, where we not only picked up some of the threads of their earlier dialogue, but ventured further into the moving horizons of their thinking. You'll hear from Dr Hanne De Jaegher, Dr Ezequiel Di Paolo, Dr Elena Cuffari, Jonny Drury, Allison Leigh Holt, Amy Cohen Varela, Dr Sanneke De Haan, Dr Rika Preiser, Dr Luc Steels, Dr Takashi Ikegami, Dr Erin Manning, Dr Joëlle Aden, Luc Petton, Barbara Bogatin, Dr Shay Welch, and Dr Karen Grøn. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today is the brilliant multidimensional thinker Michel Bitbol, a rare mind that is as well versed in medicine and physics as it is in Buddhist philosophy and micro-phenomenology.His copious bibliography traces the evolution of his interlocking interests and his thinking about the role of phenomenology in theories of consciousness, the parallels between Buddhist dependent arising and certain Western theories of knowledge, and most relevantly for our conversation today, quantum philosophy and the common blind spots in the work of a scientist.In this third and final segment, my conversation with Michel opens out onto questions about the role of contemplation in the life of the scientist and what we mean by contemplative science. He offers a granular description of the practice of micro-phenomenology within that tradition, and discusses the important work being done by the Initiative for Contemplative Phenomenology at Mind & Life Europe. Ultimately, the conversation brings us to some of the subtle points of similarity between contemplative practice and the practice of phenomenology, bringing to bear the ethical dimension of both. We end on some of Michel’s most recent work, including his two latest books from 2023, Philosophie quantique. Le monde est-il extérieur? and Mettre fin aux controverses.I’d encourage you to visit our YouTube page to watch the online course that he offered for the MLE Friends community, “Beyond Confines: the Philosophy track.” There you can hear him speak about “Buddhism and Quantum Mechanics” in Part I and about “Consciousness: East and West” in Part II. You can also check out an online course in which he taught, hosted by our partner Science & Wisdom Live, “Buddhism and Quantum Physics.”Bergson, “An Introduction to Metaphysics,” essay from 1903Mind & Life Europe’s Initiative for Contemplative Phenomenology (ICP)Paper on the validity of 1st-person descriptions by Michel Bitbol and Claire Petitmengin (2009)Carlo Rovelli If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to this podcast, donating to Mind & Life Europe, and becoming an MLE Friend. We would also encourage you to visit our website for upcoming events, as well as our YouTube Channel, where you can find dozens of free talks, dialogues, symposia, and cutting-edge educational materials."Slate Tracker" and "Lemon and Melon" by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Michel Bitbol, a versatile thinker in medicine, physics, and Buddhist philosophy, delves into quantum philosophy and immersive epistemologies. Topics include phenomenology, first-person and third-person perspectives, participatory realism in quantum mechanics, and contrasting worldviews between Western and Buddhist philosophies.

The podcast features Michel Bitbol, a multidimensional thinker, discussing the synergy of medicine, physics, Buddhist philosophy, and consciousness theories. He delves into existential questions, the evolution of his interests, quantum philosophy, and common blind spots in scientific work. The conversation challenges fixed self-perception and explores diverse disciplines to unravel the complexities of self-awareness.

Evan Thompson, professor of philosophy, discusses the importance of tolerating complexity in science, alternative epistemologies, philosophy as a way of life, and visions for Mind & Life Europe. The podcast explores integrating human experience into scientific inquiry, embracing interdisciplinary ideas, and philosophical dimensions of death and existential inquiry.

Evan Thompson, a philosophy professor, discusses the enactive approach, the nature of the mind, and human experience. He reflects on his intellectual journey, collaborations with Francisco Varela, and the impact of The Embodied Mind. The conversation touches on intersubjectivity, participatory knowing, and the blending of science and Buddhism in his work.

Amy Cohen Varela is Chairperson of the Mind & Life Europe Board and has been involved with Mind and Life since its inception. She is also a clinical psychologist specialised in psychodynamic therapy and philosophy. Amy studied comparative literature at Brown and Columbia Universities before moving to Paris in the early ’80s, where she received her degree in clinical psychology at the University of Paris 7, with a specialty in psychodynamic theory and practice, and in parallel, completed psychoanalytic training. For context here, we should also mention that Amy is the former wife and partner of Francisco Varela and was intimately involved in the intellectual ecosystem of Francisco and the evolution of his thinking during the height of his intellectual productivity. And as you’re hear, she has her own unique and uniquely lush ways of thinking about epistemology, intersubjectivity, embodiment, and particularly participatory sense-making, which we’ll dive into together.In this final segment of my conversation with Amy Cohen Varela, this is where the rubber hits the road and we talk about the ethical dimension of enaction and participatory sense-making, and how enaction can provide a robust and compassionate framework for relating with one another. One of the points that most fascinated me about this conversation was our discussion of the imagination, as it shows up for both the scientist and the psychoanalyst. We also discussed the very risky business of owning the 1st-person perspective as a scientist and owning a way of working in an organisation like MLE that is unfinished, processual, and frictive. Ultimately, this was a conversation about ethics and ethical ways of being, whether as a scientist, a psychoanalyst, or a team working collaboratively to advance interdisciplinary work in the world. What kept ringing true for me well after the conversation ended was that great quote from Francisco: “epistemology matters.” We hope you enjoy, and if you haven’t listened to the first two episodes, we’d encourage you to go back and give them a listen.Francisco Varela: The Logic of Paradise (Varela’s 1978 lecture at the Lindisfarne Fellows Meeting, “The Cultural Contradictions of Power,” courtesy of Lindisfarne Tapes)Hanne De Jaegher and Ezequiel A. Di Paolo, Enactive Ethics: Difference Becoming Participation (2021)If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to this podcast, donating to Mind & Life Europe, and becoming an MLE Friend. We would also encourage you to visit our website for upcoming events, as well as our YouTube Channel, where you can find dozens of free talks, dialogues, symposia, and cutting-edge educational materials."Slate Tracker" and "Lemon and Melon" by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Amy Cohen Varela is Chairperson of the Mind & Life Europe Board and has been involved with Mind and Life since its inception. She is also a clinical psychologist specialised in psychodynamic therapy and philosophy. Amy studied comparative literature at Brown and Columbia Universities before moving to Paris in the early ’80s, where she received her degree in clinical psychology at the University of Paris 7, with a specialty in psychodynamic theory and practice, and in parallel, completed psychoanalytic training. For context here, we should also mention that Amy is the former wife and partner of Francisco Varela and was intimately involved in the intellectual ecosystem of Francisco and the evolution of his thinking during the height of his intellectual productivity. And as you’re hear, she has her own unique and uniquely lush ways of thinking about epistemology, intersubjectivity, embodiment, and particularly participatory sense-making, which we’ll dive into together.In this second part of my conversation with Amy Cohen Varela, we do a deep dive into some of the conceptual frameworks that Amy is most passionate about, including the field of participatory sense-making (as developed by Hanne De Jaegher and Ezequiel Di Paolo) and the notion of epistemophilia. You’ll hear us reference the work of Gemma Corradi Fiumara, who first theorised this notion in the field of psychoanalysis. It was particularly evocative to hear Amy think about the body as the site of sense-making, the importance of desire in the sense-making process, the crucial role of adaptivity, Hans Jonas’ notion of ‘needful freedom,’ the idea of theory and practice playing together, and the work of letting be and always becoming an analyst in the psychoanalytic situation. I found it particularly illuminating when Amy defined sense-making as “adaptive self-regulation in precarious circumstances.” What better way to describe the state of being human, and conscious? So with that, I hope you’ll enjoy this segment of the conversation as much as I did. And if you haven’t listened to the first episode yet, we’d encourage you to go back and give it a listen!Mind & Life Europe’s European Summer Research Institute (ESRI), where Amy’s paper was delivered in 2023Hanne De Jaegher’s website for material on participatory sense-makingAn introduction to Gemma Corradi Fiumara’s work on epistemophilia: The Mind’s Affective Life: A Psychoanalytic and Philosophical Inquiry (2001)If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to this podcast, donating to Mind & Life Europe, and becoming an MLE Friend. We would also encourage you to visit our website for upcoming events, as well as our YouTube Channel, where you can find dozens of free talks, dialogues, symposia, and cutting-edge educational materials."Slate Tracker" and "Lemon and Melon" by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Amy Cohen Varela is Chairperson of the Mind & Life Europe Board and has been involved with Mind and Life since its inception. She is also a clinical psychologist specialised in psychodynamic therapy and philosophy. Amy studied comparative literature at Brown and Columbia Universities before moving to Paris in the early ’80s, where she received her degree in clinical psychology at the University of Paris 7, with a specialty in psychodynamic theory and practice, and in parallel, completed psychoanalytic training. For context here, we should also mention that Amy is the former wife and partner of Francisco Varela and was intimately involved in the intellectual ecosystem of Francisco and the evolution of his thinking during the height of his intellectual productivity. And as you’re hear, she has her own unique and uniquely lush ways of thinking about epistemology, intersubjectivity, embodiment, and particularly participatory sense-making, which we’ll dive into together. We decided to divide this conversation into three parts, reflecting the three major movements that began to emerge over the course of the recording: HISTORICAL, CONCEPTUAL, and ETHICAL. The first part walks us through the origin story of Amy’s earliest encounters with Francisco Varela and Evan Thompson, her reading of The Embodied Mind when it was still in manuscript form, Amy’s and Francisco’s collaboration at key moments in the development of both of their thinking, the early dialogues with His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Francisco’s intimate involvement in them, as well as the final weeks of Francisco’s life, when he took a trip to his birthplace in Montegrande, Chile. It was a moving conversation and I mostly let the stories speak for themselves without too much intervention. For those who are interested in Mind & Life Europe’s historical beginnings, this conversation is probably for you. In the next two episodes, we’ll dive much more deeply into the conceptual work of Mind & Life Europe and Amy’s own thinking, as well as the important interplay between theory and practice that informs our work at MLE today. So we hope you’ll stay on for all three episodes. Francisco J. Varela, Evan Thompson, and Eleonor Rosch, The Embodied Mind (revised edition, 2017)Francisco J. Varela, Organism: A Meshwork of Selfless Selves (1991)Mind & Life Dialogues Archive (1987-2022)Franz Reichle’s documentary trilogy on the life and work of Francisco J. Varela If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to this podcast, donating to Mind & Life Europe, and becoming an MLE Friend. We would also encourage you to visit our website for upcoming events, as well as our YouTube Channel, where you can find dozens of free talks, dialogues, symposia, and cutting-edge educational materials."Slate Tracker" and "Lemon and Melon" by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.