Turning Towards Life - a Thirdspace podcast

Here in London, it's spring, and the blossom is emerging with its brightness and beauty. At the same time, we humans are living with an unfolding worldwide epidemic that threatens lives and livelihoods. Can we learn to live in these times in a way that opens us to both grief AND joy, to both fear AND our responsibility for one another? A conversation about the necessity and power of including and turning towards everything in these big times, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. Here's our source for this week, chosen for us by Justin: Don’t Hesitate If you suddenly and unexpectedly feel joy, don’t hesitate. Give in to it. There are plenty of lives and whole towns destroyed or about to be. We are not wise, and not very often kind. And much can never be redeemed. Still, life has some possibility left. Perhaps this is its way of fighting back, that sometimes something happens better than all the riches or power in the world. It could be anything, but very likely you notice it in the instant when love begins. Anyway, that’s often the case. Anyway, whatever it is, don’t be afraid of its plenty. Joy is not made to be a crumb. –Mary Oliver Photo by Larisa Birta on Unsplash

In many parts of the world, as we recorded this conversation, we're having to take up practices of physical separation from one another in order to keep each other safe. But there are ways, even when we are physically distant, that we can come into a deeper, more full contact with one another than we might usually experience, and such contact with one another's depth is also a return to ourselves. A conversation about living and relating to others and ourselves in a loving, receptive, contactful way, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. Here's our source for this week, chosen for us by Lizzie: The Affliction by Marie Howe www.mariehowe.com When I walked across a room I saw myself walking as if I were someone else, when I picked up a fork, when I pulled off a dress, as if I were in a movie. It’s what I thought you saw when you looked at me. So when I looked at you, I didn’t see you I saw the me I thought you saw, as if I were someone else. I called that outside—watching. Well I didn’t call it anything when it happened all the time. But one morning after I stopped the pills—standing in the kitchen for one second I was inside looking out. Then I popped back outside. And saw myself looking. Would it happen again? It did, a few days later. My friend Wendy was pulling on her winter coat, standing by the kitchen door and suddenly I was inside and I saw her. I looked out from my own eyes and I saw: her eyes: blue gray transparent and inside them: Wendy herself! Then I was outside again, and Wendy was saying, Bye-bye, see you soon, as if Nothing Had Happened. She hadn’t noticed. She hadn’t known that I’d Been There for Maybe 40 Seconds, and that then I was Gone. She hadn’t noticed that I Hadn’t Been There for Months, years, the entire time she’d known me. I needn’t have been embarrassed to have been there for those seconds; she had not Noticed The Difference. This happened on and off for weeks, and then I was looking at my old friend John: : suddenly I was in: and I saw him, and he: (and this was almost unbearable) he saw me see him, and I saw him see me. He said something like, You’re going to be ok now, or, It’s been difficult hasn’t it, but what he said mattered only a little. We met—in our mutual gaze—in between a third place I’d not yet been.Photo by Warren Wong on Unsplash

How can we face uncertainty in a way that brings us into closer contact with our courage, openness and compassion for one another? Can we find a way, when we feel squeezed, to not withdraw into ourselves in fear? And is there a life-giving, truth-bringing way of turning towards our inescapable vulnerability? A conversation about turning towards one another for support in an uncertain time, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. Here's our source for this week, chosen for us by Justin: VULNERABILITY is not a weakness, a passing indisposition, or something we can arrange to do without, vulnerability is not a choice , vulnerability is the underlying, ever present and abiding under-current of our natural state. To run from vulnerability is to run from the essence of our nature, the attempt to be invulnerable is the vain attempt to be something we are not and most especially, to close off our understanding of the grief of others. More seriously, refusing our vulnerability we refuse the help needed at every turn of our existence and immobilise the essential, tidal and conversational foundations of our identity. To have a temporary, isolated sense of power over all events and circumstances, is one of the privileges and the prime conceits of being human and especially of being youthfully human, but a privilege that must be surrendered with that same youth, with ill health, with accident, with the loss of loved ones who do not share our untouchable powers; powers eventually and most emphatically given up, as we approach our last breath. The only choice we have as we mature is how we inhabit our vulnerability, how we become larger and more courageous and more compassionate through our intimacy with disappearance, our choice is to inhabit vulnerability as generous citizens of loss, robustly and fully, or conversely, as misers and complainers, reluctant, and fearful, always at the gates of existence, but never bravely and completely attempting to enter, never wanting to risk ourselves, never walking fully through the door. David Whyte, from 'Consolations: The Solace, Nourishment and Underlying Meaning of Everyday Words' Photo by David Watkis on Unsplash

"Perhaps," Lizzie says, "even our reactivity is a way to come home." One part of us is a reactive self, a way in which we get triggered and gripped by our certainties about ourselves and one another. Another, more essential part, is a kind of depth and openness in which we can meet the world - and have the world meet us - with more depth and openness in return. When we're gripped by our reactivity, our depth and wholeness are still present, and our learning to turn towards them can be a potent and life-giving path for meeting life more fully.  And our reactivity, if we'll notice it, can be the sign that it's time to turn back towards home. A conversation about the ways in which it's never too late to turn things around, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. Here's our source for this week, chosen for us by Lizzie: The ancient sense of transformation assumes that there is something essential within us that we can turn to and learn from; that we can draw upon repeatedly and grow from continuously. Besides involving a change in consciousness, such a deep inner change also includes a process of self-healing that can occur in moments of wholeness arising from the source of the deep self and soul within us. The old reason for not giving up on someone, even if they have failed repeatedly, is because a genuine turnaround in life is possible at any time and at any age. Because such moments are timeless, when it comes to waking up and turning things around, it is never too late. Michael Meade, from 'Awakening the Soul' Photo by Sebastián León Prado on Unsplash

It's so easy to be in a fight with our lives, as if there's a way we can win out over our fear, or grief, or some other experience we're wishing not to have. But often trying to win out leaves us small, and exhausted, and rigid. What if we were to take up a different relationship with what's happening, in which we know our experiences not as something to get away from but a way in which life is flowing through us? And what if instead of trying to fight things off we allowed ourselves to soften and flex enough to be changed by them as they pass through? A conversation about the life-giving possibilities of surrender, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. Here's our source for this week, chosen for us by Justin: The Man Watching I can tell by the way the trees beat, after so many dull days, on my worried windowpanes that a storm is coming, and I hear the far-off fields say things I can't bear without a friend, I can't love without a sister The storm, the shifter of shapes, drives on across the woods and across time, and the world looks as if it had no age: the landscape like a line in the psalm book, is seriousness and weight and eternity. What we choose to fight is so tiny! What fights us is so great! If only we would let ourselves be dominated as things do by some immense storm, we would become strong too, and not need names. When we win it's with small things, and the triumph itself makes us small. What is extraordinary and eternal does not want to be bent by us. I mean the Angel who appeared to the wrestlers of the Old Testament: when the wrestler's sinews grew long like metal strings, he felt them under his fingers like chords of deep music. Whoever was beaten by this Angel (who often simply declined the fight) went away proud and strengthened and great from that harsh hand, that kneaded him as if to change his shape. Winning does not tempt that man. This is how he grows: by being defeated, decisively, by constantly greater beings. Rainer Maria Rilke – Translated by Robert Bly Photo by Widdowquin on Flickr

The discipline of regular practice can look like a painful constraint but - as Lizzie says in this week's conversation - when we approach practice with intention and kindness it can bring us an extraordinary freedom from our habits, preferences, and ways of going to sleep to our lives. A conversation about the gifts of enabling constraints that we choose for ourselves, and the ways in which practice can help us bring our goodness to others, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. You can find our source for this week here. Photo by Farsai Chaikulngamdee on Unsplash

What happens when we meet the parts of ourselves we've kept out of view, and let them dance with the parts that we're more comfortable showing other people? What happens when we're willing to welcome the parts in others we usually try to push away? And what creativity and possibility open when we give up trying to control one another so that instead we can meet one another fully? A conversation about the gifts of finding 'the other' in ourselves, and ourselves in the other, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. Here's our source for this week: Advice by Bill Holm Someone dancing inside us       has learned only a few steps: the "Do-Your-Work" in 4/4 time,         the "What-Do-You-Expect" Waltz. He hasn't noticed yet the woman         standing away from the lamp. The one with black eyes         who knows the rumba and strange steps in jumpy rhythms         from the mountains of Bulgaria. If they dance together,         something unexpected will happen; if they don't, the next world         will be a lot like this one. Photo by Ardian Lumi on Unsplash

When we're in the midst of giant changes - the birth of a new child, the death of someone we love, or any other changes that life brings us - it's tempting to try and get life back to 'the way it has been'. Indeed, we often actively encourage the people around us to do exactly that. 'You'll soon be back to your old self', we say. But what if we could see that life's changes will change us however much we resist? And what if, instead of fearfully trying to hold on to the way we've known ourselves, we could actively allow ourselves to be changed by what's happening? A conversation about coming at life's openings with as much love as we can muster, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. Here's our source for this week, written by Lizzie Winn: The way I love you. I wish that you know your beauty because of how I look at you. I wish for you to feel how you are loved because of how I hold you. I wish for you to sense how safe you are by how I cradle you to sleep. If I could return the gift to you that you bestow on me as you smile. I would be a happy mummy. Your whole face lights up and my body does the same. As you sleep peacefully, your trust smashes me to smithereens. Most nights as you drift off I cry because of my aching heart and how I no longer know who I am and I am glad for it. Because of you I am dissolved. Nothing makes much sense any more. What is anything even for now you’re here? Who am I supposed to be and how do I live here now you are alive and breaking me open with each small change? When you bring to me the worst of you, I will try and find the best of me, Even if it bends me out of shape and turns me into someone I don’t recognise, Even if it goes against all that’s acceptable in our normal world. By Lizzie Winn about Vesper Winn Photo by Joshua Reddekopp on Unsplash

It may be hard to see, but how we listen greatly shapes what it is possible for other people to say to us. Can we catch on to all the ways we’re trying to control what we experience as we listen, and as we do so drop our need to control so that we can be a profound welcome to others? A conversation about the ways in which we share ourselves with one another, and about how we can receive with openness, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. You can find our source for this week here. Photo by Alex Holyoake on Unsplash

What if we could learn to behold one another's wholeness, rather than focussing so narrowly on the aspects of others that we fear or desire? To trust in one another's vastness and depth instead of relating to one another from defensiveness or a desire to control? It would, for sure, give us a way to know one another with a greater kindness and a greater truthfulness than we do now. Can you imagine how it would be to greet one another - partners, children, friends, colleagues - that way? A conversation about trust, welcome and truthfulness, with Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. We’re also on YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website. Here's our source for this week, which was written specially for us by our friend and colleague Neena Sims, in response to our conversation in Episode 119. Safe and Sound Have you noticed how you and I can be around our young ones? How we look at saplings, at puppies, at babies? No, that’s not quite right, we don’t look, we behold I wonder, would you please behold me that way – just for a while? Better still for a lifetime I don’t mean the cooing or the smiling or the way you might tickle me and tell me I’m delicious - delightful as that can be I’m talking about the infinite ways you can bring yourself, all of yourself, to all of me The way you know that I’m whole - safe and sound - just as I am The way you know that I’m still growing, a forever unfinished body of hope The way you can be with my sadness, my rages, my strokes of genius The way you respond to my small-minded, hidden acts of malice and my colossal acts of kindness with ferocious, truthful lightness The way you land us both safe on the side of trusting that this both is - and isn’t - my whole story I think you do all of this out of faith – am I right? Faith in me Faith that, like a holy hologram, the whole is here in every part Faith in the ragged becoming that I am But you must also do it out of faith in yourself – am I right? Faith that you can greet whatever is here and welcome all that is yet to come Faith in the ragged becoming that you are too Have you noticed how you and I can be around our young ones? How we look at saplings, at puppies, at babies? No, that’s not quite right, we don’t look, we behold And have you noticed how they behold us too? A small, potent, goodness-seeking missile to the heart I’m not sure which comes first? Perhaps there isn’t a first, only an in-between You’re safe and I’m sound You’re sound and I’m safe Something like that Neena Sims, January 2020 Photo by Liv Bruce on Unsplash