Thinking Class

Professor Azar Gat, one of the world’s leading scholars of nationalism, war, and political identity.Professor Gat is Professor Emeritus at Tel Aviv University and the author of several major works on conflict and political order, including War in Human Civilization and, most notably for this conversation, Nations: The Long History and Deep Roots of Political Ethnicity and Nationalism.In that book — and in our discussion today — Gat challenges one of the most dominant assumptions of modern political thought: that nations are merely recent inventions, artificial constructs, or the superficial products of elite manipulation.Instead, he argues that nationalism and political ethnicity have deep historical, cultural, and even evolutionary roots, stretching far beyond the modern era.Together, we think out loud about:why nationalism surged in the modern age — and why it did not begin therethe difference between ethnic and civic nationalism, and the vulnerabilities of eachhow political ethnicity asserted itself in societies as diverse as ancient Egypt, Israel, China, medieval Europe, and early empireswhy Europe developed into a distinctive patchwork of durable nation-states, rather than large civilisational blocsBritain’s formation after Rome, the emergence of England, and how national identity and political ethnicity interacted across the British Isleswhether multicultural governance can override inherited ethnocultural bonds — or merely postpone their re-assertionFrance as a revealing case of civic nationalism, and where its limits may lieand why contemporary examples — from Iran to Europe — suggest that political ethnicity never truly disappearsThis is an important conversation because debates about nationalism, identity, and belonging now sit at the centre of political life across Britain, Europe, and the wider West — yet they are often discussed without historical depth, clarity, or intellectual seriousness.Professor Gat helps restore that depth, showing why these questions endure, and why they cannot simply be wished away by ideology or administrative design.We close, as always on Thinking Class, with a personal reflection — asking Professor Gat what he has changed his mind about over the course of his life, and what led him to rethink his assumptions.About Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

Renaud Camus, writer, painter, photographer, was born in 1946. He is now the author of more than one hundred and sixty works. His works are marked by the question of meaning and the fight against the industrialisation of man and the massacre of landscapes. In this episode of Thinking Class, John Gillam and essayist Renaud Camus engage in a wide-ranging conversation about what Camus has long described as “the disaster” — the civilisational, cultural, and demographic transformations reshaping France, Britain, and much of the Western world.Camus is widely known in public debate for his writings on demographic change in Europe, often discussed superficially or polemically as "The Great Replacement". In this conversation, we move beyond caricature to engage his work on its own terms: as an attempt to diagnose what has changed within Western leadership classes, cultural memory, and moral language — and why these changes have proven so destabilising.Topics discussed include:What Camus means by “the disaster” and why he sees it as civilisational rather than conspiratorialThe role of political, media, and bureaucratic elites — whom Camus calls the “friends of the disaster” — in enabling demographic and cultural ruptureResponsibility, narrative control, and why discussion of consequences is often displaced by moral abstractionBritain and France in comparative perspective, including demographic trends, historical memory, and elite ideologyThe prohibition on speaking of ancestry, roots, and continuity — and what is lost when a people forgets its own pastGlobalism, social engineering, and the moralisation of ideologyEcological objections to simplistic “solutions,” including unchecked population growthWhy Camus rejects violence and insists on lawful, civic, and cultural means of resistanceHis reflections on monarchy, national form, and the endurance of peoplesChristian hope, recovery, and the possibility that nations can outlast periods of profound disfigurementThe conversation concludes, as always on Thinking Class, with a personal reflection: what Renaud Camus has changed his mind about during the course of his life and what led him to think differently.Follow Renaud Camus on XVisit Renaud Camus' website Buy Renaud Camus' booksAbout Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers. Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

William Clouston is the leader of the Social Democratic Party (SDP) in the United Kingdom and a member of the advisory board for Restore Britain. In this conversation, William Clouston and I think out loud about the current state of British politics, focusing on the disconnect between government promises and actual governance. We explore:The need for a cultural and civilisational vision beyond economicsThe challenges posed by mass immigration for social democracy and defining remigrationThe importance of governing in the national interest and what the national interest isWhether Western European nations will be forced into ending mass immigration by the United States' National Security Strategy 2025Lessons William Clouston has learned since entering politicsFollow William Clouston on X here.You can watch and listen to my first conversation with William here:Watch: How Britain Began To Decline & Why Its Leaders Won't Fix ItListen: How Britain Began To Decline & Why Its Leaders Won't Fix ItAbout Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

Eric Kaufmann is Professor of Politics at The University of Buckingham and Director of the Centre for Heterodox Social Science. He directs Buckingham’s new MA in the Politics of Cultural Conflict and PhD in Cultural Politics as well as its open online course on Woke: the Origins, Dynamics and Implications of an Elite Ideology. He is the author of Taboo: How Making Race Sacred Produced a Cultural Revolution, Whiteshift: Immigration, Populism and the Future of White Majorities, Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth, The Rise and Fall of Anglo-America, The Orange Order and one other book. He is co-editor, among others, of Political Demographyand editor of Rethinking Ethnicity: Majority Groups and Dominant Minorities. In addition to 45 peer-reviewed articles, he has written for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek, National Review, New Statesman, Financial Times, UnHerd and other outlets.Dr Paul Morland is an author and broadcaster who writes and speaks about population and the big demographic trends across the world, both contemporary and historic. Described as the ‘UK’s leading demographer’ and ‘one of the world’s pre-eminent demographers’ (Mercator), Paul has written four books: No One Left, Tomorrow’s People, The Human Tide and Demographic Engineering and his work has been translated into nine languages. He has written for and been interviewed in many of the world’s leading newspapers and magazines including the Financial Times, the Sunday Times, The Telegraph, The Toronto Globe and Mail, Der Spiegel and the Jerusalem Post. He has broadcast on many outlets including BBC Radio 4.In this episode, Eric, Paul and I think out loud about the significant demographic changes occurring in the UK, particularly the decline of the white British population, which is due to become a minority in the country by the 2060s. We explore:the implications of these shifts on society, politics, and culture.theories of ethnic conflict and what the future might hold for the United Kingdomthe roles of assimilation and intermarriage the impact of DEI policies and woke culture on social trustthe future of political ethnicity and nationalism the potential for remigration, the cultural shifts necessary for societal cohesion, and much much more.Dr Paul Morland:Follow Paul on XBuy Paul's books Visit Paul's websiteWatch my other conversations with Paul here: 'Forget Politics, Make Babies' and 'Why Rediscovering Our Cultural Heritage Can Save The West' Professor Eric Kaufmann:Follow Eric on XBuy Eric's booksSubscribe to Eric's SubstackVisit his websiteWatch my other conversation with Eric here: 'Resisting Woke Taboos Will Restore Cultural Flourishing'About Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show fe

Stephen Balogh is the Chairperson for the Social Democratic Party. Stephen is also active in non-profit and public policy organisations that promote the flourishing of society through the thoughtful application of socially responsible, small-c conservative politics. Following a 30-year business career, he now devotes his time to initiatives aimed at community building from local neighbourhood to international levels, whether by means of social, political or commercial exchange. Stephen has also acted as New Culture Forum’s National Organiser, helping to establish a network of “NCF Locals” groups around Great Britain and he has acted as contributing author to two NCF publications.In this episode, Stephen and I think out loud about whether democracy is working, why people across Europe are so dissatisfied in politics and beyond, why traditional cleavages between people in politics have broken down and party loyalties are changing, how the body politic has been eroded by the elite and sections of the left and the right, and what people of Britain need to rediscover if we are to flourish, and much much more.Follow Stephen on X here.About Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

Driss Ghali is a political author and speaker. Driss was born in Morocco and educated in Europe. He graduated from prestigious French universities and spent a lot of time in a corporate career focused on high-tech companies. Driss is an intellectual and observer of human nature as it is: ugly and splendid at the same time. Since 2017, he has written books about violence and identity. Driss frequently appears in French media to talk about immigration, diversity, the Middle East and French politics. One of his books has been translated into English titled, A Counter-History of French Colonization.In this episode Driss and I think out loud about:the reasons behind rising violence and civil unrest in Francewhy an increasing number of French Muslims are supportive of Islamist positions and Sharia Law over the laws of the Republichow mass immigration has precipitated an identity crisis amongst immigrants and host populationsthe perennial question of assimilation and integrationwhether civil war is possible in the event of a government led by National Rally (Jordan Bardella or Marine Le Pen); and the need for a bold leader and a new vision for France's futureListen to my first conversation with Driss here.Follow Driss Ghali on X: https://x.com/drissghalibooksYou can find Driss Ghali's work here:Driss’s websiteDriss’s booksAbout Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

Neema Parvini is the author of nine books including Applied Elite Theory, The Prophets of Doom, The Populist Delusion, The Defenders of Liberty, Shakespeare's Moral Compass. He has also written dozens of chapters and articles in scholarly publications and the media. Neema is the Director of Academic Agency, which he set up to focus on core academic skills and knowledge areas which can help students and learners of all ages to achieve both academic excellence and improve communication and research skills in the workplace. He runs the YouTube channel Academic Agent and the Substack The Forbidden Texts.In this episode, Neema and I think out loud about how the Iron Law of Oligarchy explains how populist movements are co-opted and this can be seen in America, what ‘the regime’ is and why Tony Blair represents the human embodiment of it, what the 'Boomer Truth Regime' is and how it has dominated since the Second World War, why politics is like pro-wrestling, how multiculturalism often masks the interests of multinational corporations and mercantile government policy as well as advancing ethnic preferences and interests, why Neema thinks Reform UK is a containment strategy for the regime rather than a solution and why a Great Man of History and a cleansing fire is needed to see off the current crop of elites, why Neema does not subscribe to Professor David Betz’ predictions of civil war in Britain, why Neema grew disillusioned with the online right, how the modern information landscape disincentivises searching for truth, and much more.You can find Neema's work here:Neema’s YouTube channelNeema’s booksX/TwitterAbout Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

Alexander Chula is a medical doctor and writer working in London. His first book, Goodbye. Dr Banda was published 2023.In this episode, Alexander and I think out loud about what an African dictator can teach the West about itself, how multiculturalism impacts conceptions of personal and national identity, the perceived cultural openness of modern society compared to the past and why engagement by middle-class Westerners on with foreign cultures on their travels are superficial in their nature, why this is a quick contrasts this with the more profound respect and curiosity exhibited by earlier generations, including those we thought were regressive or non-progressive, why British Victorian missionaries were more influential and had a greater, more positive impact than modern NGO- and aid-workers in Africa, and much, much more. Follow Alexander on X: https://x.com/alexanderchulaBuy Alex's book here: https://amzn.to/3XlUmLLAbout Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

Martin Sellner is an Austrian activist, author and political organiser and his "goal is to save the identity and soul of [his] nation & Europe". He is author of several books in the German language, one of which, "Regime Change From The Right", is now published in English, while another, "Remigration", will be published in English early 2026.Martin Sellner joins John Gillam to address the sensitive topic of remigration and national identity in contemporary Europe. Placing demographic shifts and political identity in historical perspective, this conversation explores why questions about cultural cohesion and national futures are increasingly central across European societies.This episode explores:the demographic pressures shaping European political discourse,how identity and belonging interact with state policy,and what “remigration” means in broader civilisational terms.Listeners will encounter one of the most contested issues of our time framed as a structural dilemma rather than a polemic.Follow Martin on XBuy Martin's booksListen to the other episodes in a mini-series for alternative views on 'what is to be done' about the issues facing Britain and Europe today. #099 - Paul Embery - Why Diversity Is Britain's Greatest Challenge & How The Labour Party Is Punishing Britain#100 - Philip Cunliffe - Britain's Future Now Globalisation Is Dead: Demographics, Identity And The National Interest#101 - Nina Power - Beyond Deportations: The Restoration Of Britain's Soul#102 - David Betz - Tribes At War: The Sectarian Battle For Britain's Future & Its Grim RealityAbout Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

David Betz is Professor of War in the Department of War Studies at King's College London where he heads the MA War Studies programme. He is also a Senior Fellow of the Foreign Policy Research Institute. Prof. Betz's most recent book, The Guarded Age: Fortification in the 21st Century, is published by Polity.In this episode, David and I think out loud about the role of political institutions in civil conflict, the impact of demographics on politics & how the election of Zohran Mamdani for Mayor of New York City and continued election of Sadiq Khan for the Mayor of London are instructive about the future of Anglophone countries, whether the white British are displaying an anger and spiritedness following suppression and dismissal of their national identity, what Britain looks and feels like if it descends into inter-tribal civil conflict, how the elites have betrayed the British people, why Britain’s youth are discontented, the rival visions and consequences for Britain’s future, and what David has changed his mind on and much, much more.Follow David on XBuy David's book hereAbout Thinking Class:Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.New episodes every week.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X