Law, disrupted

Christian Athanasoulas, KPMG’s Global Head of International Tax and M&A Tax, discusses a pivotal shift in the legal industry following Arizona's decision to allow non-lawyer ownership of law firms. He details how KPMG Law US was established to integrate legal services with consulting, streamlining client transactions. The conversation highlights the use of technology, like AI-driven contract analysis, to enhance efficiency and compliance. Christian also explores how this model could influence legal practices across other states.

John is joined by John Nadolenco, Managing Partner of Mayer Brown’s Los Angeles office and Kelly Kramer, partner in Mayer Brown’s Washington, D.C. office.  They discuss how John and Kelly won an eleven-year legal battle over the Bahia Emerald, the largest emerald in history.  The 789-pound gemstone was illegally mined in Bahia, Brazil and smuggled into the U.S.  The emerald first entered the U.S. in San Jose, California where the importers falsely declared it to be a piece of concrete with no value.  It later surfaced in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, was transported several more times, and was eventually seized in Las Vegas by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department in 2014 when one party seeking to claim the emerald reported it stolen.  This led to an action in Los Angeles Superior Court to determine the rightful owner.  When news accounts of the action reached Brazil, the government contacted John and Kelly to intervene.  They worked with the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) which filed a federal case in the District of Columbia invoking a little-known provision from the Patriot Act, which allowed the emerald to be frozen pending forfeiture.  Meanwhile, Brazilian courts convicted those who illegally mined and exported the gemstone and, after years of appeals, issued a final forfeiture order.  The DOJ then moved to enforce the Brazilian ruling, ultimately securing the emerald.  The emerald is now set to be repatriated and displayed in a museum in Rio de Janeiro, bringing an end to one of the most extraordinary asset recovery cases in modern history.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Shawn Fagan, the Chief Legal Officer of Citadel LLC, and a key legal figure at Citadel Securities. Citadel is the most profitable hedge fund globally while Citadel Securities is a leading market maker, processing nearly one-third of U.S. equities and options trades. They discuss Shawn’s insights into the unique legal challenges of these rapidly growing organizations. Shawn has essentially four clients: Citadel, Citadel Securities, founder Ken Griffin, and Griffin’s family office. His responsibilities extend beyond legal oversight to include regulatory affairs and compliance and reflect the complexities of modern finance. Shawn’s journey to Citadel was unconventional. He started as a litigator at Bartlett Beck, a boutique trial firm, where he spent nearly half his time in trial. He participated in high-profile cases, including Bush v. Gore, but ultimately realized that trial work was not his passion. A chance meeting with Ken Griffin led to an in-house opportunity at Citadel, where he has been for 20 years. In that time, Citadel has grown from 1,000 employees with $12 billion in AUM to 4,900 employees with $65 billion in AUM. The focus of his role at Citadel is building the right teams to meet the demands of rapidly growing markets around the world, developing technology to ensure regulatory compliance across billions of transactions every day, and maintaining consistent standards in an organization that is growing as rapidly as Citadel. Citadel has engaged in several high-profile legal battles, including lawsuits against the SEC and IRS, reflecting Citadel’s willingness to challenge regulations it views as unreasonable and unduly burdensome. In retaining outside counsel, Shawn looks for lawyers with a strategic vision who can articulate a clear path to winning cases.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

David Elsberg, Founding Partner of Ellsberg, Baker & Moruri and former Quinn Emanuel partner, shares insights on launching a law firm. He was inspired by the satisfaction other partners found in building their practices. David delves into the challenges of managing the business side of law, the importance of assembling a cohesive team, and the appeal of boutique firms for young lawyers seeking trial experience. He also emphasizes the need for careful communication when transitioning from established firms to preserve client relationships.

In the final episode in this series recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by Richard Ma, Founder of the Dahui law firm; Xiao Liu, Quinn Emanuel’s Chair of China Practice and Chief Representative of the Beijing Office; and Yixuan Zhu, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Beijing office.  They discuss building their respective firms, establishing their firms’ cultures, global expansion strategies, and challenges in cross-border legal practice.  Dahui was established to better serve clients, particularly in fast-evolving new economy industries like technology, media, telecommunications, and healthcare.  Dahui adopted a boutique approach—being the best at what it did and providing full-service legal support to its clients.  Expanding carefully, the firm analyzes whether expanding into a new city will assist its clients and whether it can attract top tier local talent.  The Chinese legal market is also trending towards firms expanding into “second-tier” Chinese cities such as Wuhan, Nanjing, and Chongqing where an increasing number of disputes arise.  Quinn Emanuel’s global expansion has been largely talent-driven and opportunistic, seeking exceptional lawyers to open offices rather than following a predetermined plan.  In addition, the globalization of business has led to a globalization of disputes with proceedings in multiple jurisdictions and key witnesses living around the world.  Firms with talented lawyers throughout the world are simply better suited to effectively represent clients in such cases.  Both firms work to maintain firm cultures that emphasizes competitiveness and client service.  Quinn Emanuel has a tradition of sending firm wide "victory emails" to celebrate case wins and instill a results-driven mindset.  Dahui values commitment to precision and professionalism, ensuring high standards in legal work.  On the evolving Chinese legal market, Dahui bridges the gap between international clients and China’s regulatory landscape, correcting misconceptions and ensuring successful investments and dispute resolutions.  As Chinese companies continue to expand globally, demand for international dispute resolution will likely rise.  Legal complexities stemming from U.S.-China tensions will also likely provide opportunities for experienced litigators to navigate shifting regulatory and geopolitical landscapes.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Victor Shen, Chief Legal Officer of Henkel China, Liu Zhen, Vice President at Xiaomi, and Li Hua, Senior Counsel at a Fortune 500 energy company, dive into the complex world of legal compliance and intellectual property in China. They discuss the challenges posed by non-practicing entities and the changing landscape of IP litigation. The importance of agile legal strategies and strong internal compliance frameworks is emphasized, alongside insights on navigating antitrust issues and maintaining robust relationships with regulators amidst a dynamic global market.

Gao Xiqing, a pioneer in China's financial landscape and former Chief Investment Officer at the China Investment Corporation, shares his fascinating journey from building railroads during the Cultural Revolution to conquering Wall Street as a top legal mind. He discusses his role in creating China's first stock exchange and reflects on the evolution of its regulatory frameworks. Prof. Gao also offers insight into Sino-American relations, highlighting common values that could foster closer ties between the two nations.

John is joined by renowned criminal defense lawyer attorney Ben Brafman, Founder of Brafman & Associates. They discuss Ben’s 45-year career, trial strategies, and reflections on the criminal justice system. Ben, who has tried more than 75 cases, gained prominence in the 1980s and 90s when he defended major criminal trials, particularly organized crime and white-collar cases. He was in trial almost continuously for 11 years. He attributes his success to meticulous preparation and emphasizes that there are no shortcuts in trial practice. Ben describes the evolution of criminal trials over the last 40 years, noting that trials are shorter and less frequent today due to an increase in plea deals. John and Ben also discuss trial strategies. Many cases are won on cross. A successful cross requires deep knowledge of every piece of evidence in the case. He describes one case in which he essentially memorized months of taped conversations to dismantle a key witness’s credibility.  Ben often uses cross-examinations of prosecution witnesses to establish parts of the defense and contradict the testimony of other witnesses. Most cases today are won or lost on emails or texts because they are so prevalent and an incriminating email or text by a defendant cannot be discredited on cross-examination. Ben also reflects on some of his most notable cases, including the acquittal of Sean "Diddy" Combs on gun and bribery charges in 2001 and the acquittal of nightclub mogul Peter Gation after an eight-week racketeering trial. Criminal defense often takes an emotional toll on the criminal defense lawyer, who is witness to the devastating impact criminal prosecutions have on families and personal reputations. Finally, John and Ben discuss criminal justice reform. Ben criticizes mandatory sentencing minimums laws and advocates for judicial discretion to prevent unjustly harsh sentences. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Michael Ng, partner at Kobre & Kim.  They discuss the $604 million verdict Michael recently won in a trade secrets case in Alameda County Superior Court in California.  The punitive damages phase of the trial is expected to take place in the Spring. The case centered on allegations that Phillips 66 misappropriated Propel Fuels’ trade secrets while conducting due diligence for a potential acquisition that ultimately did not proceed.  Michael explains that Propel Fuels, a pioneer in renewable fuels, accused Phillips 66 of using proprietary data, including financial models, market research, and operational strategies, to replicate Propel’s business.  Despite Phillips 66's claims that it had no need for Propel’s information, Michael and his team demonstrated that the trade secrets were not only accessed but directly used to launch Phillips 66’s renewable fuels business.  The evidence Michael’s team presented included internal Phillips 66 documents and testimony that showed the rapid deployment of Phillips 66’s business mirroring Propel’s proprietary model.  Michael reviews the strategic decisions he made that led to the verdict, including choosing to proceed in state court rather than federal court, providing a detailed pretrial trade secrets disclosure, selecting jurors with technical expertise, and proactively calling a key defense witness during Propel’s case-in-chief.  He also describes how the trial team effectively explained the complex market and regulatory dynamics of renewable fuels through their clients’ testimony and expert witnesses.  John and Michael also discuss Propel’s damages case, which was based on an unjust enrichment theory that emphasized the head start Phillips 66 gained by leveraging Propel’s trade secrets.  Michael describes internal Phillips 66 communications stating that Propel’s information gave Phillips 66 a ten year head start on entering the renewable fuels market.  Finally, John and Michael also discuss broader trends in trade secrets litigation, including the growing importance of trade secret law in emerging technologies like AI and machine learning, where trade secrets often offer more protection than patents. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Catrin Griffiths and Christian Smith, the Editor-in-Chief and Litigation Editor of The Lawyer.  They discuss legal journalism in the UK.  John, Catrin and Christian agree that UK legal reporting is more analytical and critical of law firm strategies than U.S. legal journalism.  They attribute this to the UK’s centralized legal market in London and a British journalistic culture that favors accountability and critical analysis.  They explain that The Lawyer, originally a print magazine, has evolved into a digital platform combining news, data, and insight, providing in-depth analysis of law firms' performance and strategy.  The publication operates like a financial news outlet dedicated to the legal sector, reflecting the industry’s significant contribution to the UK economy.  It covers everything from major legal trends to firm strategies and even lighter, cultural stories within firms.  They also discuss the growing dominance of U.S. law firms in London, noting that American firms often outpace UK firms, perhaps due to longer working hours and more streamlined management.  Catrin explains that UK firms historically thrived with strong infrastructure and global networks, though they now face challenges adapting to market changes.  They also address cultural differences, such as the early retirement age at UK firms, contrasting with U.S. firms where partners often work well into their 70s.  Catrin and Christian also explain the importance of maintaining authenticity when law firms engage with journalists.  They advise against corporate jargon and encourage honest dialogue.  Finally, they discuss how stories about small quirky aspects of a firm’s culture can often reflect broader trends and resonate with readers.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi