Tony Sager

Longtime NSA professional (joined 1979) who worked on defensive operations and discussed the agency's early attitudes toward software, hacking, and the emergence of cyber threats.

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Jan 6, 2026 • 1h 4min

How the World Got Owned Episode 1: The 1980s

Jon Callas, a former software engineer at Digital Equipment Corporation, discusses the early social norms of the ARPANET and the communal spirit among early hackers. Mark Rasch, who prosecuted the Morris Worm case, highlights the challenges in establishing new computer crime laws. Tony Sager shares insights on NSA's initial ambivalence toward hacking and its eventual embrace of cybersecurity. They explore the 414s’ curious exploration, the media's role in shaping public perception, and the Cuckoo's Egg, which tracks espionage by German hackers.

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