Lara Bazelon, a criminal justice reform expert and professor, faces off against Rafael Mangual, a public safety fellow and author. They dive deep into the recent spike in crime rates, dissecting the effectiveness of reform movements versus punitive measures. The conversation unfolds around policing strategies, community impacts, and the complexities of crime data manipulation. Both guests agree on the need for a broken system overhaul, emphasizing dialogue over divisive debates in their quest for justice and public safety.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's planned trip to Taiwan angers China, Ronny Chieng examines the Move Oregon's Border movement, and Rafael A. Mangual discusses his book "Criminal (In)Justice."See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.