Jonathan and Melissa interview Chris Miller and Phyllis Unkefer about creative rhythms and discovering God in the ordinary. They discuss embracing tension, the transformative power of creativity, finding God in the ordinary, confronting fear of failure through art, and the importance of community and believing in God's presence in moments of weakness.

Jonathan and Melissa Helser have a conversation with guests Chris Miller and Phyllis Unkefer about tending to the heart and embracing lifelong learning. They discuss the importance of pruning, preparing students for life's difficulties, honesty and embracing neediness, communication and conflict resolution in relationships, discovering identity through embracing neediness, the humbling experiences of older students in retreats, and the significance of doing the right work with humility.