My guest on this episode of the podcast is eminent couples therapist Terry Real, who is the author of various bestselling books on relationships and a great audio-only book, Fierce Intimacy, that I recommend to people all the time if they want a highly efficient rhetorical punch to the gut to change their lives for the better.

Terry was also, briefly, my couples therapist. I wrote about this at great length in The New York Times Magazine, and then wrote a little bit more about it here on the Substack. He did eight sessions with my wife and me, all of which were recorded and shared with us, and recently dropped in on our regularly scheduled session with Desirae Ysasi, a close colleague of his to whom he referred us after our course of therapy with him was done.

You don’t have to read either of these pieces to enjoy this conversation, but reading them in advance will enrich your experience of the conversation, because you’ll have a better sense of why I lead Terry in the particular directions that I do.

I’m a skeptic of self-help literature, in general, but I suspend my skepticism in Terry’s case. I think his way of thinking about relationships, and through them about individual virtue, bypasses a lot of the traps that we’re stuck in when it comes to both politics and psychology. On issues around masculinity, in particular, he points toward a way forward for men that avoids the pitfalls of traditional right-coded masculinity and the inadequacies of feminist anti-masculinity. He gives us a way to be powerful and loving, feminist and strong, at the same time.

That’s some of what we talk about in the conversation. We also talk about politics, about different therapeutic strategies for working with “blatant” and “latent” partners in a relationship, and plenty more.

-Dan

Show notes from AI:

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:31 Terry Real's Background and Work

01:03 Male Depression and Boyhood Trauma

03:45 Relational Life Therapy (RLT) Origins

05:35 Therapeutic Leverage in Couples Therapy

08:56 Phases of Relational Life Therapy

12:12 Patriarchy and Its Impact on Therapy

15:46 Confronting Grandiosity in Therapy

30:22 Challenges in Addressing Male Depression

35:11 Ecological Wisdom and Relational Technology

35:40 Teaching Relationship Skills with Humility

36:05 Confronting Criticism and Gender Dynamics

40:50 Empowerment Strategies for Latents and Blatants

48:43 Political Implications of Relational Wisdom

56:43 The Balance of Power and Love in Politics

01:07:50 Sexual Dynamics and Relational Flexibility

01:10:22 The Wisdom of Knowing the Right Moment

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Nikolaus Lang

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